I recently shared my list of the world’s best business class seats. A reader asked if I could make a list of the world’s worst business class seats. I figured that sounds kind of fun, though I do have a bit of PTSD about labeling things as “worst,” following my Cairo Airport saga. Hopefully this post doesn’t lead to any airline or country bans, or to any airlines releasing video footage of me enjoying a flight! 😉
In this post:
My least favorite business class seats out there
Before I start sharing what I consider to be the worst business class seats, let me clarify a few points:
- This list is intended to be relative rather than absolute, since obviously virtually any fully flat seat would be better than a non-fully flat seat; rather, I’m largely considering the competitive landscape, and/or the products that are most in need of a refresh
- I’m only including products where a large percentage of the fleet has a seat, so I’m not going to include products where an airline has imminent plans to retire a configuration, or where it’s just one or two planes with a certain configuration
- This list isn’t in any way ranked, but rather is just a collection of products that come to mind; please view this as a lighthearted post, as I’m sure I’m not remembering some products
- I’m focusing specifically on hard product here, and not on soft product, so this doesn’t factor in the overall experience offered by an airline
- For the most part I’ll be listing specific airline products, though not across the board, as you’ll see below
With that out of the way, let’s get into it… and then I’m curious to hear what OMAAT readers think.
Intra-Europe business class products
This isn’t specific to an airline, but I think we can all agree that Europe probably has the most disappointing business class standard of anywhere in the world. Business class is simply economy with a blocked middle seat, so it’s a far cry from some comfortable luxury.
People are often confused by how European airline can get away with this. Well, the reality is that since no major European carrier has tried to do better, there’s not much competitive pressure to improve. This configuration also gives airlines a lot of flexibility, since they can change the size of premium cabins with each flight.
Air New Zealand & Virgin Atlantic herringbone business class
When Virgin Atlantic introduced herringbone seats in 2003, it was pretty cutting edge, since very few airlines had flat beds in business class. However, well over 20 years later, this product really isn’t competitive anymore. You face the aisle (often looking at other passengers), there’s virtually no storage, and you have to get up to turn your seat into a (very hard) bed.
You’ll find this seat on Virgin Atlantic 787-9s and A330-300s, though you’ll find a much better business class product on A330-900neos and A350-1000s. Even worse, Virgin Atlantic has no firm plans to reconfigure its 787s (while the A330s will be retired eventually). Air New Zealand also has this product, though the airline is starting to reconfigure its aircraft.
Ethiopian Airlines 787 angled business class
Ethiopian Airlines is a powerhouse in Africa, offering an unrivaled route network. The airline has an inconsistent business class experience across its fleet. Over half of the carrier’s 787-8s have angled seats in business class. While Ethiopian was supposed to start reconfiguring these planes, that project has been delayed, and hasn’t started yet.
Even worse, these 787-8s are used for some of the carrier’s longest routes, including some 18-hour journeys to the United States (with a refueling stop in Rome).
Royal Air Maroc top/bottom business class
Top or bottom? Well, that’s a question you might be asking yourself about your seat, if you’re flying the 787-8s of Royal Air Maroc. I just find this configuration to be really odd, especially if you’re in the window seat and sleeping, and you’re basically on a pedestal for the person next to you. These seats also have bad padding, and it feels like sleeping on an ironing board.
Lufthansa non-Allegris business class
Admittedly Lufthansa is starting to roll out its new Allegris business class, though the carrier’s old business class will be flying around for many, many more years, and is what you’ll currently find on a vast majority of Lufthansa’s long haul fleet.
Lufthansa’s old business class is great if you’re traveling with family and a small child, since you can be so close to them, and enjoy the flight together. But for everyone else, this configuration offers very little privacy, and you’ll be playing footsie with your neighbor. What a contrast to compare Air France’s long haul business class fleet to that of Lufthansa in terms of direct aisle access and spaciousness.
Emirates angled 2-3-2 business class
Emirates is known for being one of the best airlines in the world, and has an amazing halo effect from its A380s, including the first class shower suites, the business class bar, etc. However, the carrier’s most common aircraft in service is the 777, and a majority of 777-300ERs have angled business class seats in a 2-3-2 configuration.
Now, in fairness, the airline is starting to pretty aggressively retrofit these aircraft, with a new product that’s much better, but still not cutting edge. The fact that one of the world’s most well regarded airlines has this as its current business class is kind of impressive in terms of how well marketing can work.
Air India 777 business class
If you think Emirates’ 777 business class is bad, Air India’s is even worse. The airline has angled seats in a 2-3-2 configuration, and they’re basically falling apart, and also have way worse entertainment than Emirates. When you consider the outrageously long routes that these planes fly, it’s super disappointing.
Now, Air India does plan on reconfiguring these jets, though the project is substantially delayed. Also keep in mind that not all 777s have these seats, as Air India is leasing former Delta Air Lines 777-200LRs, former Singapore Airlines 777-300ERs, and former Etihad Airways 777-300ERs.
Delta 767-300ER business class
Delta has an absolutely massive variance when it comes to the quality of its long haul business class seats. Delta’s 767-300ERs have what I’d consider to be the weakest wide body, international business class product, offered by any US airline.
While the seats have direct aisle access, that’s where the good news ends. The seats are super tight, and the entertainment screens are tiny and low resolution. Even worse, Delta has plans to fly these planes until 2030 (and until 2028 on international routes), with no plans to refresh the cabins. And Delta wonders why its net promoter score across the Atlantic has taken such a hit in recent years. What a massive contrast these seats are to United’s gorgeous 767 interiors.
British Airways Club World business class
To British Airways’ credit, the airline has been aggressively retrofitting its long haul aircraft to introduce the new Club Suites business class, which is an improvement over the old product. However, a vast majority of 787s, Gatwick-based 777s, and A380s, feature the outdated Club World business class. This has up to eight seats per row, doesn’t offer direct aisle access, and the general quality of these seats leaves a lot to be desired.
British Airways does plan to reconfigure it A380s, though that project won’t start until some point in 2026.
Bottom line
Business class sure has come a long way over the years, with some absolutely amazing experiences. However, some airlines are still stuck in the past. In some cases it’s because airlines don’t think they have to invest, and in other cases it’s due to delivery delays with new aircraft, plus supply chain challenges.
The above are some of the products that don’t impress me, across a variety of airlines and regions.
What do you consider to be the worst business class seats out there, by whatever metric you’d like to use?
I fly from Brussels to Bangkok last week with Thai Airways Boeing 787-8, in business class was the worst I ever see in my life. Never again.
Well, TG leased 2 of Virgin Atlantic A330 with Herringbone seat... In addition to the ancient 777-200ER that they still had...
They also used to get away with Intra-Europe style business class on their A320. After a huge public outcry, they decided to market the seat as premium economy and thankfully has a plan to reconfigure the plane with domestic business class seat on par with what US domestic first class seat is like.
Well, TG leased 2 of Virgin Atlantic A330 with Herringbone seat... In addition to the ancient 777-200ER that they still had...
They also used to get away with Intra-Europe style business class on their A320. After a huge public outcry, they decided to market the seat as premium economy and thankfully has a plan to reconfigure the plane with domestic business class seat on par with what US domestic first class seat is like.
TG is a mixed bag of Business Class seats... unfortunately, none of those seats have door...
Cabin crew is the only saving quality for them.
JAL between Kansai airport and Bangkok and ElAl between Bangkok and Tel Aviv also has the miserable angled business class seats. Whoever came up with these monstrosities should be made to sleep in them.
I totally agree with Lufthansa Long Dist Biz Class. In mid-Oct-24, flew Singapore > Frankfurt > Raleigh. Worst entertainment and hardwares like small storage box and control module for TV in poor conditions. You get what you paid for.... LOL.
I just flew from Ho Chi Minh to Sydney with Vietnam Airlines Business. The seats are so hard and there is a ridge right through the middle in lie flat position. I could hardly stand up after the flight ✈️ don't even ask me about economy or premium economy as you pay for this up front but then mysteriously just before flight the plane is not configured for premium economy.
Outrageous rip off.
Very unhappy flyer.
This is taken out of context. These not so good business class seats are fine for a domestic long flight or for a short international flight but cannot compare to the 1-2-1 configuration and the other benefits for long business class. You act like the entire fleet of these airlines have business class as the article describes which is not the case.
Philippine Airlines business class is pathetic.
I don't have enough business-class experience to comment on your choices. But it seems that if each of your "best" and "worst" choices were accompanied by a measure of cost, readers could make a semi-rational decision about whether to go for a particular choice.
I would suggest that a good measure would be the ratio of the cost of the business-class seat to the cost of a coach seat on the same flight. It would...
I don't have enough business-class experience to comment on your choices. But it seems that if each of your "best" and "worst" choices were accompanied by a measure of cost, readers could make a semi-rational decision about whether to go for a particular choice.
I would suggest that a good measure would be the ratio of the cost of the business-class seat to the cost of a coach seat on the same flight. It would be interesting to see how big the difference is in this measure between your "best" and "worst" choices.
100% agree on Lufthansa!!
Why oh why doesn’t Delta take a hint from UA and make their 763’s stellar? A 1-1-1 Business configuration would be reason alone to actually enjoy flying it. As is, every Business Class customer dreads “coffin class” and those tiny, low res Screens.
We booked China Airlines A350 business class expecting our previous experience of lay-flat (horizontal) seat private capsules - then a few days before departure were messaged a change to A330 where we were horrified to find twin seats no privacy and seats no better than premium economy that didn’t even recline the notified 170° but in fact only about 30° - horrible and nasty.
You airline review gurus seem to be focused on 1st-class or business class seats. How about a comparison of economy-class seats. That's where most of us sit owing to the high cost of the other classes.
No mention of the Q suite ...I booked four segments on QATAR Q SUITES ...AND ...travelled once in a Q SUITE ..and one flight put into British Airways which was the airline I was trying to avoid! The Old Qatar planes were ghastly.
No surprises that I have given up on long haul flights...expensive and not enjoyable...
It would've mentioned on your itinerary if you were flying a QR flight operated by British Airways. It pays to read the fine print
Surprised Swiss (LX) 330-300 Business class isn’t mentioned here…their 777 and 340 have (much better if a bit dated) products…looking forward to their upcoming cabin upgrades!
Try Aerolineas Argentina’s long haul business. Horrendous.
What about aerolíneas Argentinas business and air Europa old business class (news ones are ok)
Air India just doesn't to maintenance. 9 months after at 787 was delivered I flew it. The seat had bits falling off and was badly stained. I was able to move to an unstained seat that worked. 4 of us LHR to Delhi. All the seats were full, not of crew by, during the night. All gone by the morning. Draw your own conclusions on how much the upgrade cost and where the income went....
Air India just doesn't to maintenance. 9 months after at 787 was delivered I flew it. The seat had bits falling off and was badly stained. I was able to move to an unstained seat that worked. 4 of us LHR to Delhi. All the seats were full, not of crew by, during the night. All gone by the morning. Draw your own conclusions on how much the upgrade cost and where the income went. This was as they were introducing the type. I have avoided them since as nothing about the experience was Business Class. My friends have no choice now Vistara will gradually decline to the lowest standard. New seats would be great as a start.
Are you on drugs.. I didn't understand anything of what you said.
Qantas new b class configuration is horrible. The foot well is tiny so you can only sleep flat on your back or stomach. Lying on your side with legs even slightly bent is not possible. As an Australian I like to support the national airline but not if I can’t sleep. And not at Qantas prices.
Qantas was destroyed by the leprechaun. No service, no customer focus and they charge like wounded bulls. Just a disgrace and he got paid out millions when he left
Some of TK's business class seats on their older A330s may not be falling apart like AI but some of them actually have MANUAL controls to adjust the seats! Thankfully, the flight was short (IST-CAI).
Seems like you flew one of the TK's regional A330s. They mainly compete against European carriers' intra-Europe-configured narrow-body planes, so I don't think those should be on this list...
Any SQ longhaul non bulkhead.
Every one of these seats are dreadful and definitely to be avoided. Or in the case of Euro Biz Class..fly them in Eco fares.
You triggered one of my awful flights in the past. A 13 hours flight with CX from HKG to LHR in their old coffin bus. class seat. The real travellers here know what I mean.
No sorry. The domestic business class of any US Airline is worse. AA "Pick your snacks out of the basket"
Could someone provide more info for n Royal Air Maroc top- bottom seats. I do not understand that product and need the info before I book my trip to Morocco.
Lol Delta sucks.
While I've never flown on one I imagine those ex-LATAM A350S of DL are terrible. They were at one time using the LAX-AKL. Imagine having seat 3A only to discover you have another pax between you and the aisle. I fly DL every year to Europe, While I suspect I'd love the "regular" A350, I won't book it until I can know for sure that they can't swap in the ex-LATAMs
KLM on the E195 has business pax in the same 2-2 seating as coach (though with 33 instead of 29-30 in coach. However, since the my intra-Europe flights are maybe one hour, I'm OK. What makes it nice is the last time the 2 rows of business class were empty except for me. I very much like that European carriers seem not to upgrade. All in all, I find the empty middle seats in the...
KLM on the E195 has business pax in the same 2-2 seating as coach (though with 33 instead of 29-30 in coach. However, since the my intra-Europe flights are maybe one hour, I'm OK. What makes it nice is the last time the 2 rows of business class were empty except for me. I very much like that European carriers seem not to upgrade. All in all, I find the empty middle seats in the 3-3 aircraft makes me only a little less happy than the 2-2 domestic F.
The DL 763 J is terrible. I never book it, but got stuck on it when my incoming flight was delayed.
Cathay Pacific, inter-Asia flights, sell premium economy seats as business class for the same price as true lie flat seats. Most of the A330 aircraft for these routes are this configuration, except for the most competitive routes.
Yeah, how did nobody mention that yet?? CX deploying those jets on any flights longer than 2 hours is totally unjustifiable.
What about Copa airlines business class from Washington, DC to Panama City and then to Montevideo and their business class from Buenos Aires to Washington DC?
Inter Europe: The only exception: Austrian Airlines Embraer 195 front 8 seats. https://www.austrian.com/us/en/embraer-195
Yes. BA from LA to London business class- 5 years ago. Disaster, everything was bad. One of the worst I was flying
British Airways existing (old) business class is one of the worst seating configurations. You end up facing a stranger, and if you sit in the aisle seat then the window passenger has to step over you when you are in flat or recline position. Some of the controls are stiff or do not work, and there isn’t much space to put stuff if you are on aisle. Happy to hear BA is refitting but it’s going to take a long time.
JAL SkySuites III should absolutely be on this list
Truth. I was surprised when my seat elevated in order to lie flat, making room for my seat partner’s legs to go under mine, and making it very tight in the footwell for me. It was a big step down, like getting out of the top bunk. I can’t imagine that working for someone older. I guess that’s what happens flying out of Osaka.
BA is by far the worst of those. I've never flown in such terrible business class. Considering some airline are 4 seats across in business on an a380, BA ram 7 across in the same space and have the audacity to charge the same or more lol
As a side note, I flew their first from Singapore to London and then London to Hong Kong, probably the worst first on the planet. The FA are...
BA is by far the worst of those. I've never flown in such terrible business class. Considering some airline are 4 seats across in business on an a380, BA ram 7 across in the same space and have the audacity to charge the same or more lol
As a side note, I flew their first from Singapore to London and then London to Hong Kong, probably the worst first on the planet. The FA are bothered so easily. I asked for a coffee 3 hours out of Heathrow and was told breakfast will be served soon. Wouldn't happen on any other airline, even in Business.
I've not been on either EK's or BA's version but, according to Seatmaps, BA's seats are wider (20" vs 18.5") and have greater pitch (72" vs 48").
I was flying with Qantas and Turkish airlines Business .I thought Turkish airlines business was very Bad compared with Qantas was better than Turkish
This article doesnt go into enough detail about why these are a problem.
British Airways all the way. That tiny footstool and a seat offering little privacy is the worst.
Disagree - the LH and BA seats are fabulous for those of us who are longer legged and can't sleep when our knees and shins get banged up. Saddened by the impending demise of the TK open flat seats as well!
My all-time favorite worst flight is LH‘s discontinued 11h flight between Frankfurt and Pune operated by an A319 with intra-Europe business class and no inflight entertainment.
See Ben’s article „Lufthansa Is Launching The World’s Worst Flight“ for further infos.
Tap single aisle biz class pathetic
Can’t imagine anyone wanting to travel in Europe on a plane instead of such a pleasurable trip on a train.
I love train travel, but there are plenty of city pairs where it’s just not practical, even if possible. (And plenty more where it’s not even possible.)
"Can’t imagine anyone wanting to travel in Europe on a plane instead of such a pleasurable trip on a train." I’m with you. The only time I on a plane between two European cities in when I'm connecting from/to a US flight. I rather love the ability to check luggage at home and not have to claim & recheck in CDG or AMS.
The trip can be pleasurable, as long as you don't have to go through Germany. If you want cancellations, delays, overcrowded trains, and misery rarely seen in aviation, take a German train.
Dutch trains can also be overfull and loud during the week, and cancelled on weekends. They're slightly cleaner than Belgian ones.
British trains are overpriced and a miserable thatchwork of different companies with competing monopolies.
Trains in Eastern Europe are...
The trip can be pleasurable, as long as you don't have to go through Germany. If you want cancellations, delays, overcrowded trains, and misery rarely seen in aviation, take a German train.
Dutch trains can also be overfull and loud during the week, and cancelled on weekends. They're slightly cleaner than Belgian ones.
British trains are overpriced and a miserable thatchwork of different companies with competing monopolies.
Trains in Eastern Europe are inexpensive, but hardly time-efficient.
Outside of that, trains are great. Italy's Frecciarosa is so good that it killed Alitalia. The TGV works wonders if you're traveling to or from Paris. Austria now dominates with its NightJets.
Intra-Europe business class has its place. For the ticket, you get priority check-in, two checked bags, two carry-ons, priority security, lounge access, real priority boarding, a seat with a blocked neighbor and decent pitch, a crappy-to-mediocre meal, proper service, and your bags usually come out first. It's never worth it to me, but I can see where it would make business sense in some situations.
If you exclude Germany, I'd agree. The mess of Deusche Bahn...
Nothing pleasurable about spending a couple of hours in first class on a Belgian train with no facilities at all (other than toilets). Even the lowest of the low cost airlines will at least sell you a bottle of water.
By the way, the flight time from OTP to MAD is a cool four hours, and ATH to LIS isn't any shorter. Try to do these journeys by train and let us know how you get on.
New Zealand Air's biz seats are almost as bad as the cust service employees.
And yes, as someone states here as well, the LH J/Class seat itself is not the worst of all - if we leave the privacy thing out, which gets a little too much attention in my opinion. What is so awful being seen by other passengers? Yes it’s not top notch, but still comfortable. I recently flew FRA-MIA on 747-8, middle seat and liked it.
If you consider Turkish Airlines a European airline, they have a real Business class on their A320/21. At least I had a Biz cabin recently between Germany and IST.
Agreed. And I've had real business on a 737 with them too
I think Korean a330, with the 2-2-2, is my choice, never wanted a middle seat more.
Indeed there are several variations of bad seats, and I mostly dislike herringbone and 2/2/2 on 767's (even the so- called 1-1-1, which in reality are 2-2-2 as they share the same footprint.... maybe Polaris is somehow different, but never flown it).
Back in the early 2000's I participated in VS warehouse cabin simulatorions of the upcoming new herringbone seats...a full overnight with the meals and entertainment. I shared my several comments, including some negative....
Indeed there are several variations of bad seats, and I mostly dislike herringbone and 2/2/2 on 767's (even the so- called 1-1-1, which in reality are 2-2-2 as they share the same footprint.... maybe Polaris is somehow different, but never flown it).
Back in the early 2000's I participated in VS warehouse cabin simulatorions of the upcoming new herringbone seats...a full overnight with the meals and entertainment. I shared my several comments, including some negative. They didn't want to hear the negative. were dismissive, as they had convinced themselves it was perfect...such arrogance....
*simulations
You all hate them, but vintage BA CW is great for sleeping. Is that not the value of business class? It's not about the soft product (like F is) - it's about sleeping on a long flight. And they've had all fully flat well for years while Emirates - which you all fawn over - was flying angled business with middle seats.
100%, the BA old CW window seats remain some of the best beds in the sky. I’d pick them over any reverse herringbone or staggered config.
I thought i was the only one thinking this. It's not claustrophobic.
Definitely don't agree there. That ottoman was awkward and unstable. Not only has it collapsed on me in flight, but seen it do so to a woman who screamed and woke up half the cabin.
Easily one of the worst hard products still out there.
Virgin's B787 business class seats facing the aisle and not the windows is a very disappointing arrangement.
Ben trying to get banned from airlines à la El Cairo airport, I see. Just kidding...
I agree with you on the Virgin Atlantic herringbone business class seats. The flat beds were hard, and narrow. Also, the teeny tiny "pillow" that is provided deflates immediately to a flat pancake. No others are offered. I had to use my purse as a pillow. Also, you have to ask the flight attendant to flip your seat into a bed when you are ready. The flight attendants of course are busy enough without having...
I agree with you on the Virgin Atlantic herringbone business class seats. The flat beds were hard, and narrow. Also, the teeny tiny "pillow" that is provided deflates immediately to a flat pancake. No others are offered. I had to use my purse as a pillow. Also, you have to ask the flight attendant to flip your seat into a bed when you are ready. The flight attendants of course are busy enough without having to go around to the business cabin to flip everyone's seat into a bed often at the most inconvenient times, e.g., when they're trying to serve food or beverage.
I don't blame you for not mentioning Egyptair's A330 "business class". This is 2-2-2 angled seats, with a deep ridge at about chest height, and some of the laziest crew I have ever come across. I flew this product from JNB last spring. It is no exaggeration to say I would have had a better experience in premium economy on a European carrier.
Intra Europe business class certainly isn’t great, but for short flights I don’t mind them so much. Also VS herringbone are great for sleeping a short transatlantic redeye, not having a footwell is great.
Though I agree about the delta 767-300, those are miserable.
Worst business class i used was lufthansa
The worst business class seats aren't generally the intra-European ones, they're the ones on regional jets (certainly on KL and AY/Norra as I have flown them, probably AF and a few others too) where there's no middle seat to block so your business class ticket gets you a seat that's undoubtedly worse than an exit row one in Y.
Agree about the seat (and it is true that this is hard product focused, not soft product) but I have two comments. Some airlines like LH still block the seat next to you in business on smaller planes (which have four seats abreast). Entertainment is also another consideration that makes these seats problematic. Unlike in the US there are no PTVs for programming in euro business nor even free streaming of content to your own...
Agree about the seat (and it is true that this is hard product focused, not soft product) but I have two comments. Some airlines like LH still block the seat next to you in business on smaller planes (which have four seats abreast). Entertainment is also another consideration that makes these seats problematic. Unlike in the US there are no PTVs for programming in euro business nor even free streaming of content to your own device like American.
Having said that, I do think it's important to note that the soft product on European airlines is generally pretty good--lounge access, food, etc. so that the overall experience is decent even if the seats are poor.
Finally, even though the old Club World seats on BA long haul are narrow and 8 across, the advantage of them is that they don't have a footwell, so I don't feel as claustrophobic when I want to sleep ("throne" seats on Austrian and Swiss drive me crazy).
The lounge access and priority security are definitely important. However, if you do have frequent flyer status, you get those benefits and the difference really is only down to the onboard catering which only seems to get attention on TK and some of the smaller airlines like A3 and TAP- the big three don't bother having espresso machines onboard, and AF have even done away with hot meals.
The lack of lounge access for premium...
The lounge access and priority security are definitely important. However, if you do have frequent flyer status, you get those benefits and the difference really is only down to the onboard catering which only seems to get attention on TK and some of the smaller airlines like A3 and TAP- the big three don't bother having espresso machines onboard, and AF have even done away with hot meals.
The lack of lounge access for premium ticket holders in the USA is pretty insane - having a six-hour connection in an inhospitable terminal with limited seating isn't anyone's understanding of a premium experience. Some Latin American airlines have also been copying their Northern neighbours, e.g. AR only have 'premium economy' for short haul flights without lounge access even at AEP (and, outside of SCL, status won't help you as they don't have a contract with any lounges), and Aeromexico will happily sell you a business class ticket from CUN but don't see the need to offer lounge access at the country's #2 airport.
I am not sure about this new focus on privacy. In the old days, first class was just large comfortable seats and we did not turn into a pumpkin just because we could see each other. It sometimes even provided networking opportunities!
We see each other all day, en route to the airport, at security, at passport lines and at baggage claim. Why the sudden allergy to even seeing other passengers on the flight?
Because in the airport you can just go away when you don't like the people near you. But being stuck in a metal tube for 10+ hours you can't. If someone desperately wants to talk to strangers on a plane there's always the option to book economy.
American’s Concept D seat could probably get an honorable mention. It shakes pretty consistently, doesn’t have much storage, feels like a coffin, and has not aged very well. I’m hoping that AA retrofits its 788s and 772s that have that seat at some point
How about Cathay regional business class? It is worse than all those you mentioned other than euro biz. But those European flights are usually 2 hours max while Cathay used the Business cradles on flights over 5 hours such as Bali and charges thousands of dollars for the displeasure of flying in them.
I really don't mind the LH J seats. I find the seat itself particularly comfortable. Yes, it is not very private but I don't feel like I am laying in a coffin either.
LH has some "business class" seats to TLV that are just coach (with SMALL seat pitch) with the middle seat blocked off
Agreed!!!
Despite the airline being well behind its major rivals in Business Class, the old layout which is at last being phased out isn’t as bad as many people claim. I used it for some years on my usual 11.5hr long haul and considering the very good price found the product was acceptable but hardly a great experience. (Service and food was always good) However as they have now substantially increased the price they are no longer competitive so I’ve switched airlines.
Which airline are you referring to?
UA 777 Domestic 2-4-2 Polaris coffin seats are a joke considering this is flown on transcons and marketed as “Premium Service”
let's remember that UA's 757s do not have direct aisle access. They at least will be retired once UA gets enough A321XLRs and decides it is more interested in retiring older aircraft - they have the oldest fleet among large global airlines - than in growing.
I cant think of any 757s with direct aisle access. I assume if they were going to stick around any longer and weren't so old, many airlines would considering putting in them what is corrent;y going in A321XLRs and maybe 737 MAXs.
Benjamin,
airlines can see the 757s' use for longhaul international is over.
AA got rid of all of their 757s. They will replace their A321Ts with A321NEOs with business class suites.
DL does not use its 757s for long haul (over 8 hours) international flights; they are solely for domestic transcon flights and will be replaced by A321NEOs with business class suites.
UA is the only global airline that still uses...
Benjamin,
airlines can see the 757s' use for longhaul international is over.
AA got rid of all of their 757s. They will replace their A321Ts with A321NEOs with business class suites.
DL does not use its 757s for long haul (over 8 hours) international flights; they are solely for domestic transcon flights and will be replaced by A321NEOs with business class suites.
UA is the only global airline that still uses 757s for international flights and they will replace them with A321NEOs with business class suites.
Ironically, B6 led the US industry with suites on narrowbody aircraft and yet they are locking the doors open because if they allow them to be used, they will have to increase FA staffing.
Yes, the UA coffin seats should be on Ben’s list.
Those aren’t used long haul international. They’re hub to hub and Hawaii flights only. They’re domestically configured.
as noted, they are used for 8 hour flights to GUM and also are used for flights to Hawaii where AA and DL use aircraft with direct aisle access.
Yet another lie, they’re not used for GUM. You constantly lie, because you don’t have an argument and others are calling you out on it.
I believe Phillippine Airlines' A330s have the top or bottom-style business class Royal Air Maroc uses, except their product does not even include a TV! But then again, I don't know how comfy it is...
Yes, I was shocked by this on a flight from Manila to Sydney about a year ago lol. Terrible business class
What about that super tight JAL 787 biz seat?
I think that should be added.
Agree, and am flying it regularly for now. I select a window seat for night flights as the aisle seats bounce when someone walks by. And I hit my head anytime I exit the window seat as the overhead bins are low when you stand up. I select outer aisle seats for daytime as they have storage space (due to seat offsets) that is missing in all the other seats. On the plus side, it is an accommodating seat for side sleepers.
So I've only done Air India business class once from Chennai to New Delhi but it was on a 777 and I can confirm it was really bad the seat was broken (only the foot rest worked) the plane was dirty and in really bad shape (not to mention the horrible soft product).
I know Air India is on a journey to improve but the airline is currently garbage the only thing I enjoyed...
So I've only done Air India business class once from Chennai to New Delhi but it was on a 777 and I can confirm it was really bad the seat was broken (only the foot rest worked) the plane was dirty and in really bad shape (not to mention the horrible soft product).
I know Air India is on a journey to improve but the airline is currently garbage the only thing I enjoyed was the food and I feel that Indian food is pretty much always good and it's hard to do a bad job with it.
Ben and I have fun - at least I do - messing w/ each other but I have to commend him for this article as well as the best business class article.
He accurately notes that these rankings are subjective even though it is possible to measure some elements of the hard product such as the size of a tray table, the width of the seat and footwell etc.
The biggest takeaway is that no...
Ben and I have fun - at least I do - messing w/ each other but I have to commend him for this article as well as the best business class article.
He accurately notes that these rankings are subjective even though it is possible to measure some elements of the hard product such as the size of a tray table, the width of the seat and footwell etc.
The biggest takeaway is that no carrier has a consistent product across its entire widebody or international fleet. The most notable exception is United which has Polaris across its widebody fleet even though it still uses a far inferior product on its 757s which operate flights of 9+ hours.
Polaris took 8 years to roll out across UA's widebody fleet and was never class-leading. Other airlines had suites with doors by the time Polaris was rolled out across the entire UA widebody fleet.
While Polaris is a more spacious seat on narrower aircraft like the 767, it becomes much less attractive relative to its peers on 12+ hour flights of which UA operates many.
While people have mixed feelings about suites w/ doors, it has become the standard and the majority of people in business classes that have doors close them for at least part of the flight - which is similar to the AVOD argument on domestic aircraft.
Every airline that has extremes in the hard quality of its hard products knows how to use their different products on different routes.
Further, there is a cost to retrofitting cabins and most western airlines expect 7-10 years of service after retrofitting to recoup the costs.
The supply chain simply dictates that it is impossible to receive enough cabin replacement parts - seats, galleys, lavs etc - fast enough to replace an entire fleet.
and that means that even airlines like Untied which has a consistent but not class-leading product will once again have inconsistency when they start taking delivery of new aircraft w/ new, class-leading cabins, which UA will eventually have to do.
Most global airlines are constantly retiring and retrofitting aircraft and that cycle won't change.
Some passengers will avoid a particular aircraft type because of the product but most are still motivated by schedule and price.
Good points. And airlines that did have a consistent J seat a few years ago (BA, LH) have now had to replace them due to them now being old and uncompetitive.
I doubt we will see any airline have fleet consistency going forward, given how often seats evolve and how long retrofit lead times are.
Show me on the doll where Ben including Delta in this article hurt you.
You forgot the part where Delta’s business class is mentioned on this list and how it relates to Delta’s double digit NPS decline since 2019. The airline is still trying to retrofit aircraft since 2016 whereas United did more aircraft in less time.
It’s hard to imagine Delta losing as much premium market share internationally as it did in places such...
Show me on the doll where Ben including Delta in this article hurt you.
You forgot the part where Delta’s business class is mentioned on this list and how it relates to Delta’s double digit NPS decline since 2019. The airline is still trying to retrofit aircraft since 2016 whereas United did more aircraft in less time.
It’s hard to imagine Delta losing as much premium market share internationally as it did in places such as TPAC or Latin America if they took United’s speed and approach.
Delta’s approach is to retrofit aircraft and then give them to your competitors like Air India to fly.
to no surprise, you had to show up.
Read and ponder the comment above. DL has no business class aircraft that are even 6 abreast in business class - while UA has a fleet of over a dozen aircraft with 2-4-2 marketed as Polaris.
DL's much smaller fleet of 9 ex-Latam aircraft are being retrofitted with DL one suites. UA's 2-4-2 777As will not be retrofitted because they will never remain in service long enough...
to no surprise, you had to show up.
Read and ponder the comment above. DL has no business class aircraft that are even 6 abreast in business class - while UA has a fleet of over a dozen aircraft with 2-4-2 marketed as Polaris.
DL's much smaller fleet of 9 ex-Latam aircraft are being retrofitted with DL one suites. UA's 2-4-2 777As will not be retrofitted because they will never remain in service long enough to recoup the investment.
Show us on the doll where the truth hurts - because that is clearly what sends you over the deep edge. It happens over and over and over.
DL has no business class aircraft that are more than 6 abreast in business class - while UA has a fleet of over a dozen aircraft with 2-4-2 marketed as Polaris.
Tim, I’m sure you already know this, though it doesn’t make the point you want to make, but the domestically-configured 777s do not market the forward cabin as Polaris. They fly hub to hub and Hawaii flights only, nothing long haul international.
Also, the UA 757s are a relatively small portion of international and only fly to secondary markets in Western Europe, places where DL makes you connect to in the first place. Also,...
Tim, I’m sure you already know this, though it doesn’t make the point you want to make, but the domestically-configured 777s do not market the forward cabin as Polaris. They fly hub to hub and Hawaii flights only, nothing long haul international.
Also, the UA 757s are a relatively small portion of international and only fly to secondary markets in Western Europe, places where DL makes you connect to in the first place. Also, they will be among the first retired when UA starts taking delivery of the A321XLRs in just over a year.
DL flies their 767s to major business centers, places where UA offers a much better product. And DL has no plans to retire them in the near future.
of course you resort to lying once again when you have no credible argument to use.
The domestic 777s aren’t marketed as Polaris the way Delta markets their outdated 350 2-2-2 or 763 as Delta One on trunk routes.
It’s no surprise that on every article it is other commenters, not just me, who question your credibility and ability to make a factual claim.
no, DMM, I don't lie.
I was incorrect in saying that UA markets its 2-4-2 first class as Polaris. Because I am big enough to admit I am wrong, I note that I was wrong.
the lies are what came from you in being able to admit that DL is larger than AC and UA from the Northeast US and Eastern Canada to East Asia - and a dozen other issues including UA's profitability....
no, DMM, I don't lie.
I was incorrect in saying that UA markets its 2-4-2 first class as Polaris. Because I am big enough to admit I am wrong, I note that I was wrong.
the lies are what came from you in being able to admit that DL is larger than AC and UA from the Northeast US and Eastern Canada to East Asia - and a dozen other issues including UA's profitability.
UA does sell its 757 business class as Polaris and it is no different than the 2-4-2 product on the 777-200s. DL uses 2-2 business class but only on domestic flights.
You tell so much lies that you could your nose to type on someone else’s keyboard.
First you said the domestic 777s are marketed as Polaris which is false,
Then you say the domestic 777s are used on routes like GUM where they’re not.
Now you make up another lie by changing my statement. I said multiple times Air Canada is larger to all of Asia from Eastern Canada than Delta is from the Eastern...
You tell so much lies that you could your nose to type on someone else’s keyboard.
First you said the domestic 777s are marketed as Polaris which is false,
Then you say the domestic 777s are used on routes like GUM where they’re not.
Now you make up another lie by changing my statement. I said multiple times Air Canada is larger to all of Asia from Eastern Canada than Delta is from the Eastern US. Delta also serves no routes from Asia from the Northeast than American and United, and is smaller than United from Asia to the East Coast. That is true.
This upsets you because clearly facts and objectivity are hard for you to accept. So you manipulate and shrink the goal posts to fit your agenda.
You can only get away with lying so much which is why other commenters, not just me, start to call you out on it.
Any time Ben doesn't write and article about how awesome DL is is considered a stab in the heart to certain people on here.
I would believe that Ben, while making factual statements, enjoys riling you up, since it’s so easy and you’re so predictable.
But you never once have given off any sense of fun or pleasure in your posts. You act like your Ben and other posters insult your family’s honor and you are defending it at any cost.
If you think you are being playful or giving off any sense of joy, please self-reflect.
Ben absolutely loves riling not just me but a whole lot of other people.
I'm not here for joy or to play. where you ever got that idea is beyond imagination.
I am here to be the bad news for people like you and the village idiot that posted above Aaron.
and, no, Aaron, I don't expect anything awesome to be said about DL or anyone else. I do expect objectivity and accuracy
I got the idea from you. lol
You said you have “fun” messing with Ben. You have never given off a sense of fun or joy here. You take defending Delta as seriously as others would take a heart attack.
Don’t worry though. Time heals all wounds. Soon the pain of having DL included on the list of worst business class hard products will diminish.
A 2-3-2 "business class" seat on a twin-aisle jet is not a competitive hard product. 2-3-2 should be the standard premium economy arrangement.
The herringbone seats can be tight and seriously lacking of storage, but I dont think I've ever had such a good night of sleep as on NZ. That mattress pad is heavenly, and no footwell restraint.
It would be very interesting to see more of these comparisons/rankings, especially of more niche aspects (bedding, lounge sleeping rooms, lounge showers, etc.).
Herringbone seat defenders are so eager to die on this hill.
It's objectively just a bad seat, there are other seats that can provide equal levels of sleep quality without compromising all other aspects of seat quality
Swiss business class seat on A330 is up there too with the worst seats. Its narrow and no privacy at all if your seat is closer to the isle.
Small and very low resolution screen.
Throw in a cheap pillow and a cotton sheet they call blanket and you have it all.
I have flown all over the world for decades in bis class and Swiss Air A330 is so bad nothing else comes close
Southwest Business Select is worse that Intra-Europe business.
Southwest doesn't have a Business class cabin. Business Select is a fare that allows you to board in the early groups.
You missed the joke.
And does get you a free drink.
You may not get an empty middle, but I'd rather have an exit for the knees.
I see that you're ready to make trouble with a lot more governments
The British Airways seat, the last one in the article, can be great. The rear facing window seat is not only rear facing, which can be safer, but is more private than sears with doors. Technically, it lacks direct aisle access but has its little corridor to walk. It's one of my favorites but not às good as EVA 787-10 Royal Laurel.
I’d disagree that the BA refit project has been aggressive: it’s been rife with delays and started years ago.
Japan Airlines Neo shell angled seats, dreadful. Closely followed by British Airways that you described.
1. Intra European for sure is no 1.
2. Avianca's business class on a narrow body plane (particularly when they do a last minute aircraft swap from lie flat on a A330 to a simple within-US first class equivalent business class seat on a narrow-body plane.
Korean A380 and Asiana A330 angled seats
I'll be trying the Delta 763 business class pretty soon and will judge for myself.
But based on other reviews, the Aerolineas Argentinas business class product may make it onto your list when you do try it, though they have I think 2 planes with ex-TAP Portugal interiors?
Air India is probably not on the list cause Ben never dared to even try it out
@ Jakob -- Major oversight on my part! Adding that now, thanks.
I think in the Air Europa version, both seats recline to the same level? But still a below average seat regardless.
@ NS -- Whoops, you're correct! Let me update the post to reflect that. Thanks!
I'd say ANA Business Cradle seats are also pretty bad, in contrast to their THE Room, which is considered the best by many people. They (cradle seats) aren't even angled flat, but more like to a recliner. I could name some other bad seats of major carriere, but they're mostly a minority of their fleet while ANA Cradle seats could be found on 20 aircraft.