What consumers expect in business varies greatly around the globe, especially for short haul and regional flights. You’ll probably find the world’s best regional business class products in Asia (including the Middle East), where you’ll often receive lounge access, flat beds, delicious food, and attentive service.
Meanwhile in the United States and Europe, it’s a totally different story. I’m always intrigued by how OMAAT readers have different takes on which region has the worse business class, so I figured that would be fun to discuss in this post.
In this post:
Comparing two unpopular business class experiences
All else being equal, would you rather fly business class on a regional flight in the United States, or business class on a regional flight in Europe? Now, personally I have a strong preference, but I’m always caught off guard by how many people have a totally different take. Let’s go over the pros and cons of each (let me note that in both regions there are outliers, so my analysis is based on the “average” flight in each region).
Regional business class in Europe
Regional business class in Europe typically consists of an economy seat with a blocked middle. The size of the cabin can be changed with each flight based on demand, as the curtain is simply moved back and forth based on how many people book the cabin.
Suffice it to say that booking business class and getting an economy seat is quite underwhelming, especially given how little legroom there is on most flights within Europe. Some airlines offer Wi-Fi and power ports on these flights, while other airlines don’t, but there’s not much consistency there.
There are some advantages to intra-Europe business class, though:
- The food and drink selection is generally quite good, better than you’d find in the United States; even on a very short flight, you’ll be served something substantial and/or fresh
- You get lounge access on intra-Europe flights when traveling in business class, which generally isn’t offered on flights within the United States
Regional business class in United States
Typically the forward cabin on domestic flights in the United States is marketed as first class rather than business class, which tends to cause some confusion among foreign travelers. In the United States, the business class cabin has different seats, and therefore the size of the cabin is the same on each flight.
Domestic first class seats are probably most similar to international premium economy seats. You can expect that they’ll have considerably more width (as they’re usually in a 2-2 configuration rather than a 3-3 configuration), and also feature substantially more legroom. However, aside from some premium markets, don’t expect that you’ll get a flat bed product.
The advantage of business class within the United States is obvious, which is that there’s more space. However, there are also some downsides:
- A domestic ticket usually doesn’t offer lounge access within the United States, so unless you’re a member or otherwise have lounge access, you’ll be stuck waiting in the gate area
- The quality of food and drinks on domestic flights is typically underwhelming; on flights of under two hours, you’ll typically just be served packaged snacks at best, and on longer flights you might get a hot meal, but it’s unlikely to be great
Which business class experience is better?
There doesn’t really seem to be any consensus as to whether business class in the United States or Europe is preferred.
Some people say that business class within Europe is an embarrassment, as you’re just getting an economy seat. Meanwhile others say that business class in the United States is awful, since you don’t even get lounge access, and the food typically isn’t very good.
Where do I stand? Given the choice, I’d choose business class within the United States any day of the week. To me the single most valuable commodity on a plane is personal space, and that’s an area where US airlines win. I care a lot more about being comfortable than I care about having a decent meal, or getting lounge access. For that matter, there are lots of other methods for accessing lounges in the United States, beyond just the ticket you booked.
When traveling in domestic first class, I can typically be every bit as productive as at home. There are consistently power outlets and Wi-Fi, and I don’t have to contort my body to be able to work on my laptop.
In defense of intra-Europe business class, I still see value in the product when redeeming miles. Would I pay an extra $500 for a business class seat on an intra-Europe flight? Nope, probably not. But you can regularly book business class for an extra 5,000-10,000 points one-way, so based on my valuation, that’s often like paying the equivalent of under $100 to upgrade.
To me that’s well worth it for the premium ground services, the better inflight service, and most importantly, the guaranteed blocked middle seat. When you have an empty middle seat, you can at least get relatively comfortable.
I also think it’s worth calling out how there’s frequently saver award space in business class on flights within Europe, while it’s extremely rare to come across that on domestic flights in the United States.
Bottom line
Airlines in both the United States and Europe are often criticized for their regional business class products. Some prefer business class in the United States for the better seats, while others prefer business class in Europe for the lounge access and better food and drinks. Personally I’m more in the former camp, as I value space above all else on a plane.
Where do you stand — for regional flights, do you prefer business class in the United States or Europe?
Many Youtubers have flagged this up about Euro business class: if you have level 3 status (Sky Priority, Star Alliance Gold, oneworld Sapphire ) or higher, you will probably get most of business class benefits except "free" food and upfront seating. On the other hand, Euro business class allows you to gain status more quickly as bonus points are the same
For US domestic flights though, the only guaranteed way to access a lounge is...
Many Youtubers have flagged this up about Euro business class: if you have level 3 status (Sky Priority, Star Alliance Gold, oneworld Sapphire ) or higher, you will probably get most of business class benefits except "free" food and upfront seating. On the other hand, Euro business class allows you to gain status more quickly as bonus points are the same
For US domestic flights though, the only guaranteed way to access a lounge is via club memberships which cost about $600 per year or complimentary with a qualifying credit card. And because you can only access the lounge on the day you have a flight with the airline, you may need to shell nearly $2,000 out to cover all major US airlines.
*if you have level 3 status (Sky Priority, Star Alliance Gold, oneworld Sapphire ) or higher when flying economy class, so it is harder to justify spending the extra on business class. On the other hand, Euro business class allows you to gain status more quickly as rates for accruing bonus points are the about same across long- and short-haul flights.
This article lacks details. The first or business class across the country is very different than that of a short flight within the US. For example west coast to east coast you may get the flat bed seat and a good experience.
For a non-status passenger on a short flight, getting Fast Track security, lounge access and a good meal (better than anything at the airport) is huge. Doubly so when on business and doubly so at a meal time when you probably won’t have time to eat at the airport.
But for a member of a US lounge and Pre Check on a mid haul flight, then the larger seat becomes more important than the slop and swill served on board.
For me it depends on a couple of factors. One is the distance, a regular seat is fine for me on flights under two hours and better food and wine is worth the sacrifice in comfort.
Two is whether or not I need to check a bag, I waited 45 minutes in line to drop my bag on an economy TAP flight from Barcelona to Lisbon. Checking luggage on a US carrier is much...
For me it depends on a couple of factors. One is the distance, a regular seat is fine for me on flights under two hours and better food and wine is worth the sacrifice in comfort.
Two is whether or not I need to check a bag, I waited 45 minutes in line to drop my bag on an economy TAP flight from Barcelona to Lisbon. Checking luggage on a US carrier is much more efficient. Upgrading would have been worth the $100 to skip the line, board early and have a meal and a couple glasses of wine. I usually have access to a lounge so not a big selling point. It wouldn't be worth $100 to upgrade to first on an SFO LAX flight.
Ben, you probably have status on all the alliances so you would have priority check in and boarding so I understand why you would overlook these benefits but for some they make a difference.
Overall the win goes to US first.
Americans generally care about space, Europeans care more about service. There you have your answer. I am an European living in the US. I would take intra-Europe J class over US Domestic F any time any day.
I think there are cultural elements to these perspectives. In some cultures, you need to have a good meal served nicely on proper china as a basic part of any premium experience. The idea that a nice seat and wifi can make up for that takes away from the importance people place on these things. Good food served properly is a central part of hospitality.
Pricing for business class in Europe has changed a lot in recent times. You can often find a J ticket for 25% - 50% more than Y. Once you add in the extra cost of seat assignment, checked bag, etc... for Economy (if you dont have those already) the difference can be quite small. Not to mention the additional benefits of lounge access, Or for status-seekers, that could be a small premium to pay for 2X-3X the status points.
@Frog;
We even have Carriers in which you sometimes have cheaper J-Fares than the Full Fare Y. Maybe not if booked far in advance but in my case I never can book earlier than 12h before the flight. That's my experience.
I’m with Ben, an d the E-175 F seats are better than any domestic narrowbody F with the exception of the few with lie flats in J/F.
Other than a few Asian carrier F TPAC flights, the food is never as good as what I normally get on the ground in Europe. Especially if you don’t eat meat.
Does anybody know at what point the size of the European business cabin is "fixed"? Is it when the aircraft is assigned to the route? So there is a finite number of business class tickets available. Or does it just keep growing and growing according to ticket sales? In which case, when is it finalized?
In theory I don't think there is a limit, but in practice it's rarely that big because demand isn't that high. BA move the divider up and down depending on load in each cabin. Also they are currently installing the new awful slimline seats on their short-haul planes, but only from rows 14 onwards (they're keeping the wing-head rested 'Pinnacle' seats at the front), which gives you an idea of the maximum size they expect Club Europe/Business to be.
It’s never fixed. I’ve seen KL and LH move the divider after boarding and while many passengers are in their seats.
It actually is with some airlines - it doesn't make sense at all, but it is. Observed this with ITA just last week, their planes are fixed at 12 business seats regardless. They actually upgrade people operationally (it happened to us) rather than move the divider! So I think it depends on the airline.
ITA has a very odd way of configuring their business cabin at the moment in short-haul. Despite it beeing the usual blocked middle seat with a drop down table from the seat back to use for passengers on either side, they always bizarrely keep it fixed at 12 seats. Even when there are more economy passengers and less business ones, and will even operationally upgrade economy passengers to business rather than just move the divider...
ITA has a very odd way of configuring their business cabin at the moment in short-haul. Despite it beeing the usual blocked middle seat with a drop down table from the seat back to use for passengers on either side, they always bizarrely keep it fixed at 12 seats. Even when there are more economy passengers and less business ones, and will even operationally upgrade economy passengers to business rather than just move the divider and fold the middle table up. It's very odd and defeats the point of having this middle seat configuration - they might as well have proper regional business seats like QR or like we see in Domestic First Class in the US.
Let’s settle this once and for all with a cage match and fight to the death.
One European businessman from Frankfurt named Klaus against one American business “person” from Oklahoma City named Brad.
Basically a long way of asking "Do you prefer real business class seats in the US or better food and lounge access in Europe?"
Turkish airlines have true business class on their European flights
Big seats
Gourmet meals
Lounge access...
Try and compate
We are talking about internal European flights of which Turkey is not a part. It’s like comparing Air France’s a350 from Paris to tel aviv or Cairo with a proper business cabin, direct aisle and full flat beds.
@Icarus;
Turkey IS partly part of Europe albeit not from the EU (which they would like but will never happen), besides IST is IN European side too.
IST is on the European side of the city (unlike SAW) so how is FRA-IST, for example, not intra-European? Having flown business class legs of similar length (FRA-TLV on LH, MAD-IST on TK), there is simply no comparison, even on TK's narrowbody fleet.
Air Canada has the best of both: US-style seats, but meals even on very short flights. I just flew YYZ-PHL (350 miles) and got a hot breakfast (eggs, sausage, potatoes). And I believe lounge access on domestic flights (as Star Gold I get it regardless).
One can say the same about flights in the Middle East and Asia.
the value proportion of intra-EU biz is better:
it's usually a few thousands miles more, which comes really handy when you fly a not-your-usual alliance airline, for all the priority luggage handling and express security (which you don't get from just being an elite) kinda worths it. And while empty middle seat is not desirable, at least it makes using laptops fairly easy (and private) too.
If all things equal, then US biz edges out.
My biggest issue is if you are connecting through LHR or other European hub after flying trans-atlantic in business class, then having to squeeze into a normal coach seat (albeit with an empty middle) seat in "business" intra-europe to your final destination is a total bummer. The reverse is much better...
I think when the difference is just the soft product it makes it hard to justify the price. Paying an extra $300 for a $10 meal? A bigger seat is more subjective and easier for some to pay up.
Similar argument for international first/business on airlines like Starlux. If you’re not getting more space then it’s just a pure accounting cost/benefit (minus some other benefits like lounge and what not)
You are getting an extra space - the free seat next to me is the major reason why I pay for European J sometimes (I don't care much about the food, and I get all the ground service via *G status).
Completely agree on the space point. As a slim man, I don't mind the seat width issue (though I agree with the point on productivity and working when you have a larger surface to work on) however the fact that the leg room is so egregious makes it so much less comfortable and difficult to work.
Can someone explain the economics to me?
If the US model is more profitable to the airlines, why dont the EU ones copy it?
Likewise, if the EU model is more profitable, why dont the US ones copy it?
Financially, surely one is better than the other right? Who's dropping the ball?
They are completely different markets. The EU doesn't have the same "domestic" travel dynamics as the US. You have a robust train system and different dynamics in terms of spend on business and leisure travel.
So there is a "right" model for the market but not a "right" model for two distinct markets with different competitive dynamics.
I wasn’t aware there is a business class product in the USA - isn’t it called “first class” perhaps on a few transcontinental services operating wide-bodies ? But certainly no comparison
Another reason to book domestic first or intra Europe business - is for overhead bin space. On full flights, it can really make a difference. Most gate agents are much more lenient with a seat in the higher cabin when it comes to bag size as well.
@EthaninSF;
Well, that said, in Europe that's quite an extra charge for extra Overhead bin space, on the other hand, regardless of the cost you are right! Not my case but if you're travelling in Y on narrowbodies and you are not within the first 50 pax to board you'd better forget any bin space and from all the carriers I use, forget to switch your suitcase in the bins of J Class. Don't know for US as I'm not familiar with US Transcontinental sectors.
There is some difference in Europe. Many flights are on smaller planes with 2+2 seating, so no middle seat. Some airlines (Lufthansa, LOT) block the seat. Some (Air France, KLM) don”t which is disgrace.
Yes- an even greater surprise occurred when I looked at SAS business intra-Europe and saw that they don't block the middle on 3-3 configs either! You certainly can buy a "SAS Plus" ticket, but you may have someone sitting on top of you even in row 1.
On the other hand, you apparently can buy a second seat in intra-Europe SAS Plus, so you can give yourself a very rich person's version of "poor man's...
Yes- an even greater surprise occurred when I looked at SAS business intra-Europe and saw that they don't block the middle on 3-3 configs either! You certainly can buy a "SAS Plus" ticket, but you may have someone sitting on top of you even in row 1.
On the other hand, you apparently can buy a second seat in intra-Europe SAS Plus, so you can give yourself a very rich person's version of "poor man's business class" by buying not one but two seats for your two hour hop.
SAS Plus is positioned as premium economy rather than business, although it's booked in business fare buckets.
I flew AF last year (MAD-CDG-LOS/ABV return) and, on both outward and return legs, the middle seat was blocked for all business class rows.
I think you summed it up nicely Ben. I am 6'5" and find EuroBusiness just as miserable as EuroTrash class.
Will admit that the food is much better than what you get in the US though.
Lounge access for all Business Class pax would not be sustainable in the US due to the volume. Can you imagine if DL offered SkyClub access to all domestic F/J pax?
The line for the Skyclub in ATL would reach Savannah!
Well, in Europe they can afford lounge access for J/C pax because credit cards don't grant lounge access.
different business model
@GGC;
Surely not like in the US but we have many CC's (Amex, Mastercard, Visa, Diners Club...) who grant Lounge Acces, i.e. all CC's I have connected to Carriers like LH, SN, TP, etc grant me Lounge access. However I'm not having them for that purpose as I have Status on the Carriers I need.
I am totally with you on that, personal space trumps all else and it really comes down to personal preference. What I do not understand is why the European airlines do not install recliner seats in their intra-European fleets. If they're charging $300 more than an economy seat then the product should commensurate with the price. As for the US-based airlines, why will they not install footrests in their first class seats? More often than...
I am totally with you on that, personal space trumps all else and it really comes down to personal preference. What I do not understand is why the European airlines do not install recliner seats in their intra-European fleets. If they're charging $300 more than an economy seat then the product should commensurate with the price. As for the US-based airlines, why will they not install footrests in their first class seats? More often than not, their intercontinental flights are operated by aircrafts without lie-flat beds and it's quite uncomfortable without a footrest on a 5-hour flight.
The reason they don't install big seats in business class in Europe is that the airlines want to be able to move the curtain to adjust the ratio business:economy. Many business class passengers will be connecting from a long haul business class flight and the airline needs to offer something for these high spending customers, but the demand varies too much on the short haul flights to have a permanent ratio of seats between business and economy
I for one am eternally grateful that reclining seats are now a history. There's nothing worse than trying to eat, work, or just relax and having the seat in front of you slammed into your face, reducing your already miserable legroom. I hated it back in the days when this was still a thing.
UPgrades is another area which differentiates US and EU offerings.
While almost all US airlines offer upgrade chances to elites (however elusive), I do not think any european airline does it.
Had completely legitimate business class seat on Finnair Amsterdam to Helsinki last year on plane operated by A350, had basically the same seat as operated on JFK-HEL so it depends
There are only a very small number of intra-Europe services that operate on long-haul equipped aircraft, so your experience is very much an exception.
Finnair flies 330s/350s on select services to LHR and AMS (and maybe other European capitals?).
IB flies a daily (sometimes twice daily) 330 or 350 to LHR for cargo capacity. BA previously flew a daily 777 or 350 to Madrid also for cargo capacity but currently does not (presumably...
There are only a very small number of intra-Europe services that operate on long-haul equipped aircraft, so your experience is very much an exception.
Finnair flies 330s/350s on select services to LHR and AMS (and maybe other European capitals?).
IB flies a daily (sometimes twice daily) 330 or 350 to LHR for cargo capacity. BA previously flew a daily 777 or 350 to Madrid also for cargo capacity but currently does not (presumably due to BA’s a/c shortage).
TK flies various wide bodies to LHR (but their other LHR services are on single aisle 320s/321s/737s).
I would agree with your conclusions. I've flown in the business end of most major US and European carriers and the US version is better.
But like you I typically get lounge access for most flights anyway. Either free or reimbursed. I use my $200 amex plat personal for UA lounges plus the 2 I get from their CC. With my amex biz I use the credits for AA access. Between that and the Delta,...
I would agree with your conclusions. I've flown in the business end of most major US and European carriers and the US version is better.
But like you I typically get lounge access for most flights anyway. Either free or reimbursed. I use my $200 amex plat personal for UA lounges plus the 2 I get from their CC. With my amex biz I use the credits for AA access. Between that and the Delta, Centurion & Priority Pass access it's been a while since I didn't have the ability to enter some lounge.
If I didn't my answer might be different. But I am mostly paying for the larger seat and more space when flying anyway and US carriers deliver on that at least.
No comparison. Every flight oven an hour gets you a full meal on KLM/Air France.
You can purchase a better meal at the airport for substantially less than the upgrade price. On the other hand, there's no way to substitute for the extended legroom and width offered by a US business class seat.
My "favorite" (i.e. not) idiosyncrasy on intra-Europe J is on Air France. They serve cold meals, no matter the time of day. Suppose it's better than an overcooked hot meal but it sure was a surprise to climb on board and be served cold fish and veggies as a "dinner."
It’s generally a short flight and most are connecting.
In the US it’s full of free upgrades and staff. And the majority of US flights are not on widebodied jets or JetBlue Mint. On some shorter domestics there’s not even a meal let alone lounge access. They are no called lounges in the US but clubs, implying a fee. Americans don’t like anything to be free.
Why keep comparing? The US is a...
It’s generally a short flight and most are connecting.
In the US it’s full of free upgrades and staff. And the majority of US flights are not on widebodied jets or JetBlue Mint. On some shorter domestics there’s not even a meal let alone lounge access. They are no called lounges in the US but clubs, implying a fee. Americans don’t like anything to be free.
Why keep comparing? The US is a single country with a generally awful rail system so it’s a captive market. For example it takes almost 3 times longer by train from LA to San Diego than the equivalent distance in Europe.
@Lucky
Delta CEO backtracks on new skymiles requirements, admits they went to far
Yikes that Tim bloke is going to die.
Another big difference ... average flight length. Not unusual to have a 3-5h intra US flight. But Zurich to Rome or Paris to Munich .... the average length is way shorter in Europe.
Beside Lounge and better food you get higher baggage allowance and usually some sort of fast pass for security.
Don't want to fly EU style business for 5h, but on the other hand would love a good meal and lounge...
Another big difference ... average flight length. Not unusual to have a 3-5h intra US flight. But Zurich to Rome or Paris to Munich .... the average length is way shorter in Europe.
Beside Lounge and better food you get higher baggage allowance and usually some sort of fast pass for security.
Don't want to fly EU style business for 5h, but on the other hand would love a good meal and lounge access before a US first class flight.
Agree with the paid vs points agrument as the increase is usually pretty low compared to US carriers (AA on DFW - PHX had Eco at 12,5k miles and First at 80k miles - obviousle influenced by dynamic pricing)
It depends on how you weigh the hard product vs. the soft product.
I fully agree with the pros and cons you mention. Personally I mean you often get the perfect mix with Turkish Airlines business class within Europe wit decent seat and very often superb service
I'm surprised I don't see more people talking about the service. I find that the flight attendants in EU biz are consistently polite and respectful, which is absolutely not my experience on US domestic first. That being
That being said*, it's more exciting to get upgraded to domestic first than to get tossed in EU biz as part of a long haul award ticket, which has been all of my experience there.
Also a shout out to carriers flying the A220 in Europe - EU biz is great on that plane because of the layout
Heck yeah... 1-2 is a fantastic seat plan on those Air France A220s.
Average sector length is also much shorter in Europe. Even “longer” intra-Europe flights rarely take much more than 2 hours, while the US is a very large country. So these products aren’t really comparable, in my opinion.
What is the average sector length in the US. Just because it’s a big country doesn’t mean most people are flying across it.
It's interesting how business class within Asia can give you the best of both, and better service and quality as well.
Asian regional biz should be better - it costs a a lot more!
Same with Australian domestic business which I’d argue combines US first hard product with Eurobiz soft product (on ground and in air) - but is insanely expensive
Yep. It's not amazing when you consider the price. When a transcon Perth-Sydney recliner seat is priced the same as a lie flat seat from London to NYC or DXB....
I wasn’t thinking about Australia. Inter China like Shenzhen to PEK, ICN to Jeju in Korea, even HKG to PEK, I often find cheaper than many equidistant US regionals
Unless a US carrier has three distinct cabins, domestic F needs to be rebranded as Business.
Well, really you should be comparing "American" business/first class with Eurobusiness, as it's a pretty similar setup in the US, Canada and Latin America. That said, the answer is unquestionably American regional business class. Eurobusiness is overpriced hot garbage. Honestly, if you're cool with paying double for a narrow 28" pitch seat that's no better than a ULCC offers (in many cases worse), I think you need your head examined. As for "soft product", as...
Well, really you should be comparing "American" business/first class with Eurobusiness, as it's a pretty similar setup in the US, Canada and Latin America. That said, the answer is unquestionably American regional business class. Eurobusiness is overpriced hot garbage. Honestly, if you're cool with paying double for a narrow 28" pitch seat that's no better than a ULCC offers (in many cases worse), I think you need your head examined. As for "soft product", as much fun as it is to trash regional "first class" on US airlines, I've never gotten anything better in Eurobusiness either. Maybe a newspaper, which the used to offer here when they were relevant.
Except that is bs. LH, OS, LX, TP and others have 32" in the first few rows.
1. Name a European business product with worse than Euro LCC seat pitch
2. Name an US airline that includes lounge access, food and drinks on all flights less than 2 hrs...on British Airways on flights that don't even reach cruising altitude you can get a hot meal a couple of drinks..
Who is wasting their time getting to the airport early enough to care about lounge access when the flight itself is under 2 hours? Making a day out of what should be a short trip is not a win.
@shza;
Well, I do! I prefer to have some relax time at the lounge (even if it's just for 20 min) after work before boarding over getting just in time at the airport and face queues and having to run to the gate or hearing my name being called over the Terminal.
You are right on the second point... as for 1) IB has atrocious legroom on most of their narrowbody aircraft (28" bar the CRJs with 30-31", don't remember). That's on par with the likes of Vueling and Wizzair and less space than what Ryanair offers on their 737s
You pretty much covered it. Hard product is better in the US; soft product in Europe is better, especially on shorter flights. I was amazed at how BA crew hustled to serve us a 2 course meal and 2 rounds of drinks on a 50 minute flight from DUB-LHR in Club Europe recently. You might only get water or 1 small drink on that short a flight in the US.
There’s also the benefit of...
You pretty much covered it. Hard product is better in the US; soft product in Europe is better, especially on shorter flights. I was amazed at how BA crew hustled to serve us a 2 course meal and 2 rounds of drinks on a 50 minute flight from DUB-LHR in Club Europe recently. You might only get water or 1 small drink on that short a flight in the US.
There’s also the benefit of expanding or contracting the J cabin in Eurobiz. That same BA flight had more than half of the A320 curtained off as J!
Of course regional business in Asia is best but besides that how do regional business in Europe work? Is there a dedicated cabin? On a typical A320, if business is not full, are they filling the row next to/behind you with 3 economy passengers? Or are they keeping these 3-Y seats with middle blocked for use on some flights as all economy class?
Well, the experience I have in Europe is that the first row in Y, behind J, is always fully occupied (6pax). Can't explain that because you have like a curtain at about 30cm from your face. Back in time when I "had" to fly Y Intra Europe I'd never ever took those seats.
I believe they set up the cabin with the number of seats required for business pax based on whichever flight has the most pax in business class for that day. And by “set up”, I mean move the curtain rail back to whichever row is the last row needed for business class. On BA, it can be as little as four rows and as many as twelve rows.
On a quieter flight, the seats...
I believe they set up the cabin with the number of seats required for business pax based on whichever flight has the most pax in business class for that day. And by “set up”, I mean move the curtain rail back to whichever row is the last row needed for business class. On BA, it can be as little as four rows and as many as twelve rows.
On a quieter flight, the seats in the business cabin remain empty (unless economy is oversold and a small number of pax are given an op-up, which is rare).
Blocked seats refers to for booking or seat selection rather than anything physical in most cases. BA and Aegean being examples of actually doing stuff with the middle seat.. normally the airline just moves the curtain backwards or forwards to accommodate the required number of seats. I've never seen less than 3 rows (that I can recall) and also don't know if it can move past the over wing exits. Presumably there's also service limitations,...
Blocked seats refers to for booking or seat selection rather than anything physical in most cases. BA and Aegean being examples of actually doing stuff with the middle seat.. normally the airline just moves the curtain backwards or forwards to accommodate the required number of seats. I've never seen less than 3 rows (that I can recall) and also don't know if it can move past the over wing exits. Presumably there's also service limitations, in terms of catering and crew to cover 12 vs 48 pax etc.
@Nick
Don't know for all but with TP J Class is always minimum also 3 and always moved per 3, never saw 4 or 5 rows just like I never saw with them over 6 rows of J.
However, with LH i.e. they use to have quite more than 6 rows, of course depending on the Route. I know out of BRU they almost always have half the plane in J but don't exactly remember if they go over Emergency Exits, don't think it.
'To me the single most valuable commodity on a plane is personal space, and that’s an area where US airlines win.'
This take doesn't make much sense. On European flights, you are FAR less likely to have a full business cabin. More than 50% of my flights in business, I have the whole row to myself. Whereas, in US first class, I have never had a free seat next to me. And even if they...
'To me the single most valuable commodity on a plane is personal space, and that’s an area where US airlines win.'
This take doesn't make much sense. On European flights, you are FAR less likely to have a full business cabin. More than 50% of my flights in business, I have the whole row to myself. Whereas, in US first class, I have never had a free seat next to me. And even if they are full, in European business class, you are much further from your neighbour than in US domestic first class. If you were to say the most important thing is a better seat, say that. But for space per passenger, I would be willing to bet that on an average flight, the pax/square metre would be higher in the US first than European business class.
Would the whole row be considered personal space? You didn't pay for the other seat
I was going to agree with you until I read further. I frankly couldn't give a crap about having an open row is the pitch is so tight that my legs don't fit in. And that never happens on US regional business. Though AA's Oasis config is pushing that but is still not even close. LEGROOM is the personal space that's important. Otherwise, your free row is the same as the back row on an unfilled Frontier flight to Fargo.
"More than 50% of my flights in business, I have the whole row to myself."
We all have different preferences, but I want leg room and elbow room. Indeed, that's what I understood Ben to mean by "personal space". I don't care if -- oh the horror! -- someone else is in my row. I do care if I pay eurobusiness rates yet get an economy width seat with economy legroom.
I think it's worth mentioning that most intra-EU flights are under 2 hours. It makes the need for a bigger/more comfortable seat less important.
I do wish that EU airlines would offer a better product/maintain a subfleet for routes like Paris-Cairo. Four hours in EU business class is brutal. BA has a few A321s configured with lie-flats for routes like LHR-TLV but that's it.
You are right, but there are a couple of exceptions like Air France flies the A350 to Cairo and A330 to Tel Aviv, KLM flies the 777 to Tel Aviv. Finnair flies the A330/A350 between London/Amsterdam and Helsinki. Singapore Airlines A350 flies between Milan and Barcelona. There are many more, so it can still be quite fun in Europe when you get the right route.
Except Tel Aviv and Cairo aren’t in Europe. Although you’re looking at the distance.
Does anyone know if BA operates those lie flat A321s to Cairo? I know they used to but as of now the A321neo is scheduled to CAI, and I don't believe BA has any A321neos with lie flat seats.
unfortunately, those BA ‘mid haul’ 321s with the Vantage lie flat biz seats are no more - they were all retrofitted with the standard short haul all-economy seat layout. So most flights operating to CAI (4hr50m) and AMM (5hr10m) are on short haul aircraft with club Europe (economy seat with blocked middle). Interestingly, TLV (4hr55m) gets long haul wide bodies with flat beds presumably because it is a more prestigious and/or more profitable route.
Americans usually forget that Europe consists of different countries and cultures. In the USA it’s one country albeit with regional differences.
If you fly business you expect lounge access and yet it the US it’s not automatic.
As someone mentioned above, shouldn’t one think of it as the American continent? I.e. North America (USA + Canada) and South America. Also different countries, different cultures, no?
If you combine North America and South America together it is actually called the Americas. North America does not just consist of the United States and Canada. Mexico, the Caribbean and Greenland are part of North America as well. So, anything south of Central America would be South America. North America and South America are two separate continents but when combined as one it is known as the Americas. There are seven continents and there...
If you combine North America and South America together it is actually called the Americas. North America does not just consist of the United States and Canada. Mexico, the Caribbean and Greenland are part of North America as well. So, anything south of Central America would be South America. North America and South America are two separate continents but when combined as one it is known as the Americas. There are seven continents and there isn’t a continent known as the American continent.
Yes, sorry, my comment was sloppy. I meant the Americas (North + South America), which all appear to have a similar approach to regional business/first product despite being made up of different countries and cultures.
EU is a de facto confederation, we just don't call it that so we don't upset nationalists :) The differences between various EU member states are not much bigger than those regional differences you mentioned in the US. When it comes to air travel, it's definitely one integrated market.