Typically I like to make “best of” lists, including about the world’s best business class seats, world’s best business class airlines, etc. Not to be too negative, but I thought it would be nice to mix things up, and talk about the world’s worst business class seats.
I figured that sounds kind of fun, though I do have a bit of PTSD about labeling things as “worst,” following my Cairo Airport saga. Hopefully this post doesn’t lead to any airline or country bans, or to any airlines releasing video footage of me enjoying a flight! 😉
In this post:
My least favorite business class seats out there
Before I start sharing what I consider to be the worst business class seats, let me clarify a few points:
- This list is intended to be relative rather than absolute, since obviously virtually any fully flat seat would be better than a non-fully flat seat; rather, I’m largely considering the competitive landscape, and/or the products that are most in need of a refresh
- I’m only including products where a large percentage of the fleet has a seat, so I’m not going to include products where an airline has imminent plans to retire a configuration, or where it’s just one or two planes with a certain configuration
- This list isn’t in any way ranked, but rather is just a collection of products that come to mind; please view this as a lighthearted post, as I’m sure I’m not remembering some products
- I’m focusing specifically on hard product here, and not on soft product, so this doesn’t factor in the overall experience offered by an airline
- For the most part I’ll be listing specific airline products, though not across the board, as you’ll see below
With that out of the way, let’s get into it… and then I’m curious to hear what OMAAT readers think.
Intra-Europe business class products
This isn’t specific to an airline, but I think we can all agree that Europe probably has the most disappointing business class standard of anywhere in the world. Business class is simply economy with a blocked middle seat, so it’s a far cry from some comfortable luxury.
People are often confused by how European airline can get away with this. Well, the reality is that since no major European carrier has tried to do better, there’s not much competitive pressure to improve. This configuration also gives airlines a lot of flexibility, since they can change the size of premium cabins with each flight.
Air New Zealand & Virgin Atlantic herringbone business class
When Virgin Atlantic introduced herringbone seats in 2003, it was pretty cutting edge, since very few airlines had flat beds in business class. However, well over 20 years later, this product really isn’t competitive anymore. You face the aisle (often looking at other passengers), there’s virtually no storage, and you have to get up to turn your seat into a (very hard) bed.
You’ll find this seat on Virgin Atlantic 787-9s and A330-300s, though you’ll find a much better business class product on A330-900neos and A350-1000s. Fortunately Virgin Atlantic plans to retrofit its Dreamliner cabins, though the project is only starting in 2028 (meanwhile the A330s will be retired eventually). Air New Zealand also has this product, though the airline is starting to reconfigure its aircraft.
Ethiopian Airlines 787 angled business class
Ethiopian Airlines is a powerhouse in Africa, offering an unrivaled route network. The airline has an inconsistent business class experience across its fleet. Over half of the carrier’s 787-8s have angled seats in business class. While Ethiopian was supposed to start reconfiguring these planes, that project has been delayed, and hasn’t started yet.
Even worse, these 787-8s are used for some of the carrier’s longest routes, including some 18-hour journeys to the United States (with a refueling stop in Rome).
Royal Air Maroc top/bottom business class
Top or bottom? No, this isn’t Grindr, it’s Royal Air Maroc’s 787-8 business class. I just find this configuration to be really odd, especially if you’re in the window seat and sleeping, and you’re basically on a pedestal for the person next to you. These seats also have bad padding, and it feels like sleeping on an ironing board.
Lufthansa non-Allegris business class
Admittedly Lufthansa is starting to roll out its new Allegris business class, though the carrier’s old business class will be flying around for several more years, and is what you’ll currently find on a vast majority of Lufthansa’s long haul fleet.
Lufthansa’s old business class is great if you’re traveling with family and a small child, since you can be so close to them, and enjoy the flight together. But for everyone else, this configuration offers very little privacy, and you’ll be playing footsie with your neighbor. What a contrast to compare Air France’s long haul business class fleet to that of Lufthansa in terms of direct aisle access and spaciousness.
Emirates angled 2-3-2 business class
Emirates is known for being one of the best airlines in the world, and has an amazing halo effect from its A380s, including the first class shower suites, the business class bar, etc. However, the carrier’s most common aircraft in service is the 777, and a large percentage of 777-300ERs still have angled business class seats in a 2-3-2 configuration.
Now, in fairness, the airline is now aggressively retrofitting these aircraft, with a new product that’s much better, but still not cutting edge. The fact that one of the world’s most well regarded airlines has this as its current business class is kind of impressive in terms of how well marketing can work.
Air India 777 business class
If you think Emirates’ 777 business class is bad, Air India’s is even worse. The airline has angled seats in a 2-3-2 configuration, and they’re basically falling apart (passengers sometimes even have to sign waivers acknowledging this!), and also have way worse entertainment than Emirates. When you consider the outrageously long routes that these planes fly, it’s super disappointing.
Now, Air India does plan on reconfiguring these jets, though the project is substantially delayed. Also keep in mind that not all 777s have these seats, as Air India is leasing some planes that previously flew for other airlines, with different interiors.
Delta 767-300ER business class
Delta has an absolutely massive variance when it comes to the quality of its long haul business class seats. Delta’s 767-300ERs have what I’d consider to be the weakest wide body, international business class product, offered by any US airline.
While the seats have direct aisle access, that’s where the good news ends. The seats are super tight, and the entertainment screens are tiny and low resolution. Even worse, Delta has plans to fly these planes until at least 2030 (and until at least 2028 on international routes), with no plans to refresh the cabins. And Delta wonders why its net promoter score across the Atlantic has taken such a hit in recent years. What a massive contrast these seats are to United’s gorgeous 767 interiors.
British Airways Club World business class
To British Airways’ credit, the airline has been aggressively retrofitting its long haul aircraft to introduce the new Club Suites business class, which is an improvement over the old product. However, a majority of 787s, Gatwick-based 777s, and A380s, feature the outdated Club World business class. This has up to eight seats per row, doesn’t offer direct aisle access, and the general quality of these seats leaves a lot to be desired.
British Airways does plan to reconfigure it A380s, though that project won’t start until some point in 2026. Meanwhile Gatwick-based planes are expected to maintain these interiors.
Bottom line
Business class sure has come a long way over the years, with some absolutely amazing experiences. However, some airlines are still stuck in the past. In some cases it’s because airlines don’t think they have to invest, and in other cases it’s due to delivery delays with new aircraft, plus supply chain challenges.
The above are some of the products that don’t impress me, across a variety of airlines and regions.
What do you consider to be the worst business class seats out there, by whatever metric you’d like to use?
I am glad that you mentioned Emirates in this article. On a trip last year I was not happy with the 2-3-2 configuration. Further, I think if the business class is 1-2-1 most will agree that it is better than other configurations. It is interesting that you did not mention the seats that you do not lie flat (such as Finnair). Some information is not 100% correct. The reason the EU airlines offer the basic...
I am glad that you mentioned Emirates in this article. On a trip last year I was not happy with the 2-3-2 configuration. Further, I think if the business class is 1-2-1 most will agree that it is better than other configurations. It is interesting that you did not mention the seats that you do not lie flat (such as Finnair). Some information is not 100% correct. The reason the EU airlines offer the basic style of business class is mostly because of the short flight times and a more premium on ground experience.
got a some strange looks when commenting on Lufthansa seats though.
A few people in the comments mentioned IcelandAir's business class that's really a premium economy seat. I would upvote that, too. The only saving grace is that it's not quite priced the same as a business class seat on other airlines (but definitely more than a premium economy one).
There are certainly a few on this list that are WORSE, but I'd take almost any lie-flat seat over the Iceland air ones if they were at the same price.
I'm taking the LH 2-2-2 for the first time this spring. But the award price for J was the same as Delta's award price for Premium Economy. So I will treat it as PE+ and be happy.
How about Concept D on AA?
other than the shaking, I find that to be a great seat. Also, the pre-programmed zero-G position....the best out there!
NZ only shows the reconfigured 777 at their site. It uses reverse herringbone. Looks way better than the old. The 787 is being reconfigured from the 1-1-1 in Ben's link to a 1-2-1 herringbone. The good part is that, on the old design. you sat at about a 45° angle to the fuselage whereas it is now about 30° with more shell around you. FYI: I've never flown J on NZ.
As mentioned by others, CX's A330 regional recliner is AWFUL and I believe some are still flying around.
Euro-J is a very peculiar beast... Perhaps it doesn't belong to this list.
I guess majority of the passengers are either connecting from/to long-distance flights, are politicians who fly on a public dime, or are bigger fish flying on a company's dime...You won't spend more than 2.5/3 hrs in the air in it...
Not comfy at all, in majority of the cases, but you get lounge access and priority lanes at the airport....
Euro-J is a very peculiar beast... Perhaps it doesn't belong to this list.
I guess majority of the passengers are either connecting from/to long-distance flights, are politicians who fly on a public dime, or are bigger fish flying on a company's dime...You won't spend more than 2.5/3 hrs in the air in it...
Not comfy at all, in majority of the cases, but you get lounge access and priority lanes at the airport. They may also feed you something more or less edible during the flight itself.
If Emirates 2-3-2 made this list then Turkish 777’s 2-3-2 should be on it as well. Even less privacy than Emirates, same horrible concept that allows for a middle seat in Business Class on 14-hour long flights.
To be fair, I’ve managed to start appreciating this seat somewhat once my son was born -putting him in a middle seat between myself and my wife makes sense and allows to control what’s going there during the...
If Emirates 2-3-2 made this list then Turkish 777’s 2-3-2 should be on it as well. Even less privacy than Emirates, same horrible concept that allows for a middle seat in Business Class on 14-hour long flights.
To be fair, I’ve managed to start appreciating this seat somewhat once my son was born -putting him in a middle seat between myself and my wife makes sense and allows to control what’s going there during the night without much effort, but that’s the only use I can imagine for this layout that doesn’t involve cursing the airline
Most years, I have two flights on KL or AF European Business. The problem WAS that, on the E190, no seats were blocked off by AF. I read that will/has changed. I am OK with it, because 1) the longest I'd ever get is <2 hours (and usually barely more than 1), 2) the unimpressive pitch is OK for this short guy, 3) I find all coach seats wide enough, 4) I like an empty...
Most years, I have two flights on KL or AF European Business. The problem WAS that, on the E190, no seats were blocked off by AF. I read that will/has changed. I am OK with it, because 1) the longest I'd ever get is <2 hours (and usually barely more than 1), 2) the unimpressive pitch is OK for this short guy, 3) I find all coach seats wide enough, 4) I like an empty seat next to me, and 5) they don't seem to upgrade, so the J area feels better. I was pleased to find that AF swapped out the 319 for a 220. Having the only seat in J now (3 months prior) I was able to snatch the window seat on the "2" side, the aisle seat is blocked out (as is the middle seat on the "3" side).
ANA’s 787-8s, which are flown between Japan and South East Asia, have horrendous recliner seats. Just awful for a 7-8 hour overnight flight. And with crappy IFE.
Are you sure about the BA 787 retrofits? I thought I'd read elsewhere that the 788s were the last ones to get upgraded and even the 788s are almost done now.
Separately, the worst "Business Class" seat truly has to be Iceland Air being listed in the same breath on google flights as "Business Class". I realize it's not exactly what you mean by seat, but the number of people that must get tricked by...
Are you sure about the BA 787 retrofits? I thought I'd read elsewhere that the 788s were the last ones to get upgraded and even the 788s are almost done now.
Separately, the worst "Business Class" seat truly has to be Iceland Air being listed in the same breath on google flights as "Business Class". I realize it's not exactly what you mean by seat, but the number of people that must get tricked by that premium economy seat because google flights and Iceland Air told them it was business class and listed alongside true lie flats trans-atlantic...?
I mostly agree, in particular about the European Business Class.
I disagree about the "old" herringbone seats. I always had a comfortable sleep on NZ, AC etc. I still don't grasp why people rather expose their head to the aisle than their feet ...
To add a few more poor showings: The old Swiss and Edelweiss J (narrow and cramped), Icelandair Saga (just recliners), the old Latam and new Edelweiss J (no direct aisle access, very exposed) ...
Interestingly enough, these "new" Edelweiss planes are all ex-LATAM! The first few aircrafts in service retain LATAM's original 339-seat configuration (30 business, 63 premium economy, 246 economy). The company plans to install a completely new cabin interior at a later date.
Aside from the obvious intra-Europe blocked middle seat nonsense, my least favorite business class is Singapore airlines, mostly from a missed expectations standpoint. Sure their service is great, and first class is amazing, but their business class seat is simply not competitive against other mainline asian carriers. That tiny little foot cubby off to the side, just awful.
Avianca US Columbia Business class is actually an economy class 3seat row converted to 2 seats, with legroom comparable to JetBlue coach. It is a joke.
Avianca US Columbia Business class is actually an economy class 3seat row converted to 2 seats, with legroom comparable to JetBlue coach. It is a joke.
There's a sweet spot to British Airways Club World. It's the window seat! Very nice. The other seats are not very good.
I had the displeasure of flying AirIndia "Business Class" from EWR - BOM. This was the era when they were having bedbug problems, so the trip started off bad. But it is international long haul...it will get better, won't it?
Short answer - no. The seats were pretty much standard US domestic business-class seats, in a staggered alignment, with the person in the window unable to exit their seat area if the person in...
I had the displeasure of flying AirIndia "Business Class" from EWR - BOM. This was the era when they were having bedbug problems, so the trip started off bad. But it is international long haul...it will get better, won't it?
Short answer - no. The seats were pretty much standard US domestic business-class seats, in a staggered alignment, with the person in the window unable to exit their seat area if the person in the aisle was sleeping. Imagine a 17-hour flight with no bathroom access. The meals were typical coach-class quality food. The bedding was...well, see my bedbug comment above.
I will admit that the cost (under $1,000 return) was a definite positive feature. My employer would not let me book business class (although now, having read the employee handbook, they were wrong) on a major airline, but since AI business class was less than a coach ticket on another airline, I was permitted to book it. Too bad the experience was less than a coach-quality one.
Your Air India business class experience from 2018 is relevant and informative for travellers in 2026. Thanks for posting.
So, top or bottom?
Icelandair Saga Premium is kind of like those campy Icelandic movies on the IFE. Good for about 20 minutes, then the production value starts to rear its ugly head.
"Now, Air India does plan on reconfiguring these jets, though the project is substantially delayed."
Which is it? Is it now, or is it substantially delayed?
Surprisingly, many old business-class seats from the 2-2-2 era are far more comfortable than today’s so-called “top seats.” I had a last-minute aircraft swap from Qatar’s Qsuite to the old 777 2-2-2 configuration and I had no neighbour. The space in front of me was huge, and the comfort was much better than in the Qsuite, where I keep bumping my knees all the time.
In my view, Qsuite-type seats look great in pictures, but...
Surprisingly, many old business-class seats from the 2-2-2 era are far more comfortable than today’s so-called “top seats.” I had a last-minute aircraft swap from Qatar’s Qsuite to the old 777 2-2-2 configuration and I had no neighbour. The space in front of me was huge, and the comfort was much better than in the Qsuite, where I keep bumping my knees all the time.
In my view, Qsuite-type seats look great in pictures, but in practice they’re not that good for sleeping.
It's an odd thing, for sure. But I agree. What they lacked in privacy and storage space they made up for in comfort and a feeling of spaciousness. Funny how the only times I ever managed to fall asleep for hours on end just happened to be on these seats, which were often angled too.
Remember Cathay's 2-2-2 seats on their 744s, A340s, some A330s as well as Singapore's Spacebeds? Those were some great times!
exactly - very good point. Nowadays it seems that everything is 100% about total privacy, doors, suites, cocoons - but not considering the real space.
I was flying many times China Southern old business class (same that you find in old Turkish Airlines, old Qatar Airways) - yes with neighbor surely not top notch.
But you have tons of space in your seat area and 10 times better for sleeping than most of...
exactly - very good point. Nowadays it seems that everything is 100% about total privacy, doors, suites, cocoons - but not considering the real space.
I was flying many times China Southern old business class (same that you find in old Turkish Airlines, old Qatar Airways) - yes with neighbor surely not top notch.
But you have tons of space in your seat area and 10 times better for sleeping than most of the current C-Class config..
Sleeping in old CZ Business Class was just great with space to every side. Nowadays (just last months Singapore Airlines 787 and Air France A350 - of course nice but also very tight!) - and that's today's trend - more privacy, less personal space!
The older Saudia A330s are worse than the Delta 767s.. had the pleasure recently of one.
Controversial - actually like the Virgin ones purely as the bed surface makes me sleep ridiculously well. My wife does not agree.
We just flew from the US back to Europe with Avios reward, plenty of availability on BA but one had to do a lot of checks to make sure that one doesn't get the old Club World.
We got the new Club Suite on A351, the plane was nice but BA's service leaves still a lot to improve and the Club Suite is really just a glorified standard herringbone. Looks nice but that's about it. IFE is meh and who buys Airbus wide-bodies without the cameras!
BA does not provide any service. In general you will see crew member twice: when they serve meals - regardless it is 7hrs flight or 15 ( like mine from Shanghai ). Disaster.
Hawaiin A330 should have made this list and also Fiji air!
The grindr comment is KILLING me
Didn't know Ben was a stand up comedian now ;)
TAP Air Portugal A321neo, used for transatlantic flights. Super tight foot well, narrow seat at the shoulder area when fully reclined, hard seat.
Fiji Airways A330. Alllllmost reclines fully, but has just enough of an angle so you slide down.
Have you tried the Airbus 350 seat of China Southern Airlines?
I flew on Delta One suites on the 767-400 … and it was the most uncomfortable seat I’ve experienced. So tight that you can barely move…never again
I guess Cathay's recliners are okay in your book?
whats the longest route they fly recliners on? Its all intra-asia yeah? (Not saying some of those routes arent a good chunk of time). I think I flew the recliner once from HKG-KTM
Cathay's regional routes can vary significantly in length. It can be as short as a bus or train ride to downtown or it can be as long as a transcontinental flight especially during winter.
And while they have made strides for some of the more "premium" routes along with red-eyes to get some form of lie-flat as the A330s have been relegated to regional routes sans Cairns, it still makes an appearance throught the...
Cathay's regional routes can vary significantly in length. It can be as short as a bus or train ride to downtown or it can be as long as a transcontinental flight especially during winter.
And while they have made strides for some of the more "premium" routes along with red-eyes to get some form of lie-flat as the A330s have been relegated to regional routes sans Cairns, it still makes an appearance throught the regional network.
The good news is that select A330s will be getting a flat-bed product, so I can see the recliners be relegated even further to lower yielding routes such as Manila, Cebu, Phnom Penh, etc.
Great job, Ben. There's absolutely no shame in doing a 'worst of' in cases like this.
One question: Should we take any hope in the few exceptions to the usual intra-europe biz class? Am thinking of ITA, for example. I flew from Rome to London, and was lucky enough to snag one of their real biz class seats. Maybe this will create a trend?
BA should be top of the list. You missed to include Qatar Airways old 777 and even worse the Airbus 330 if they still have them flying. Also Cathay regional business shoud be mentioned, way worse than some of the beds you included in the list.
You forgot the super overrated and awful Singapore angles flat beds. Not only do you have to stand uo to turn them into beds but sleeping in diagonal fashion even non tall guests have a hard time getting comfortable. Even their fantastic service and menu offer cannot overcome the most overrated seats in Asia.
Preach. Not to mention that the seats are far too hard.
I always find this argument interesting. Is «the sleeping at an angle» issue solely because you sleep at an angle or is it relative to the seat, i.e. seat facing forward, sleeping at an angle?
I just flew this a few times and found it largely OK. Acceptable for sleeping and one of the few J seats where you can comfortably get out of the seat with the tray table open.
KLM bc seats are pretty awful to. Sure, they are lie-flat. But there's almost no space if you have + size 9 feet. And the chair when turned into a "bed" is rock hard and not wide enough. KLM also does not supply a matrass so sleeping is virtually impossible.
UA 2-4-2 777s?
Those are domestic only - think the longest they fly is like DEN - HNL
Way longer than most euro business class flights that made top of the list even though only 1-2 hours in the air
Peter
Are you suggesting the UA IPTE 2-4-2 seat is worse than euro business class? That’s laughable
I would add Swiss a330 to this (maybe Brussels too, but the IFE is at least better) and old BA club world
I would add the UA B77M and B77G aircraft with 2x4x2 business class.
Controversial but I'll say I dont care for the Finnair or any "zero recline" business class that only lets you sit at 90 degrees upright or flat bed!
I'm here for the Air India callouts :D
That Air India interior screams 1990's motel room.
I, ironically, agree!
I would add:
- Delta 757s used on domestic D1 routes (for which pricing is comparable to TATL D1)
- KLM A330s, old and narrow with zero privacy and very little space
you realize that UA has a much larger fleet of 757s which are very similarly configured as DL's 757s and they fly longhaul international flights which DL's 757s do not?
a pretty big chunk of DL's 767s compete on routes where UA uses 757s. Why you and others fail to understand the comparison is hard to grasp
@ Tim Dunn -- Genuine question, and I'm not trolling. Do we know how many transatlantic routes United's 757s fly in winter? I'm curious so am trying to look it up. I see EWR-EDI... and that's all I can find? What other routes am I missing, as I'm sure there are some?
do you know how many TATL routes that DL uses the 767-300ER on during the winter?
The number falls dramatically.
The point is that DL and UA know that their 763s and 757s, respectively, are their weakest product and pull them from key routes as soon as they can while using them for flex TATL capacity in the summer heavily to unique or heavily leisure markets.
Even on the transcons, the 763s make up...
do you know how many TATL routes that DL uses the 767-300ER on during the winter?
The number falls dramatically.
The point is that DL and UA know that their 763s and 757s, respectively, are their weakest product and pull them from key routes as soon as they can while using them for flex TATL capacity in the summer heavily to unique or heavily leisure markets.
Even on the transcons, the 763s make up a smaller percentage of the fleet during the winter while DL uses more 763s on domestic flights esp. from ATL that don't normally see widebodies.
The only reason I bring up the UA 757s is because of the incessant inability to note the context in which DL uses its 763. The UA 757 is by far a weaker product than the UA 757 and yet you can't seem to accurately note the context in which either are used.
I'd be happy to knock it all off if you would be willing to accurately note the context in which all airlines use their weakest product including UA's 757s and EK's 777s etc.
@ Tim Dunn -- "do you know how many TATL routes that DL uses the 767-300ER on during the winter?"
I don't, but I know it's a lot more than one. That's why I was asking about your comment where you said "a pretty big chunk of DL's 767s compete on routes where UA uses 757s."
in other words, you can't provide the context so you just assume that DL is at a disadvantage when DL's 767-300ERs are used primarily in markets where product matters but UA's 757s are supposed to get a pass.
Let us know where UA uses its 757s NOW and how that compares competitively.
I realize it takes a whole lot more work to figure out where BA, EK and DL all use their most inferior...
in other words, you can't provide the context so you just assume that DL is at a disadvantage when DL's 767-300ERs are used primarily in markets where product matters but UA's 757s are supposed to get a pass.
Let us know where UA uses its 757s NOW and how that compares competitively.
I realize it takes a whole lot more work to figure out where BA, EK and DL all use their most inferior products relative to their entire fleet but that is the context that matters far more than all of the talk about how great or bad any airline's products are.
How telling that a supposed airline 'analyst' won't or can't provide such simple data.
Tim - Once again, spewing toxicity that far overshadows whatever useful facts you might have to share. Your last sentence was unnecessary, rude, and totally undid your constructive contribution.
Didn't your mother ever teach you good manners? It's impolite to insult strangers who've done nothing wrong.
first, Ben is hardly a stranger even if I haven't met him in person.
and second, Ben really does want to improve his product and I have proven that I want his success which I do by engaging with him.
and third, good manners includes being honest with people which, in this context means that framing facts in their proper context matters.
DL knows that its 767-300ER product is its weakest but they still led...
first, Ben is hardly a stranger even if I haven't met him in person.
and second, Ben really does want to improve his product and I have proven that I want his success which I do by engaging with him.
and third, good manners includes being honest with people which, in this context means that framing facts in their proper context matters.
DL knows that its 767-300ER product is its weakest but they still led the industry in NPS score - or at least their execs are not telling the truth bcause that is what they said.
But DL does know how to use its products where they matter the most just as BA, EK, DL and UA and every other carrier that really does have product differences whether Ben accurately makes the comparisons or not.
Ben is hardly a stranger. at least to me. I engage with his work and have rejoiced and lamented with him over the years.
He is certainly not a stranger. He is a friend to me - in an online context which is where the majority of people interact w/ him.
That photo of the DL 767 business class seats is hilarious. What a waste of valuable space. Yikes!
Here’s my honestly as “good manners.”
I was not shocked to see you lunge as soon as I saw DL made the list. I’m also not surprised to see you neglect to answer a direct question posed to you, choosing instead to. deflect and gaslight.
If constantly attacking Ben and using flippant and dismissive comments like “you do realize” every time you put your fingers on a keyboard you are NOT invested in Ben’s...
Here’s my honestly as “good manners.”
I was not shocked to see you lunge as soon as I saw DL made the list. I’m also not surprised to see you neglect to answer a direct question posed to you, choosing instead to. deflect and gaslight.
If constantly attacking Ben and using flippant and dismissive comments like “you do realize” every time you put your fingers on a keyboard you are NOT invested in Ben’s success. You are using Ben as a tool to advance your own brand.
As I have already said…and will continue to remind you because I am so invested in your success…your approach undermines any credibility you might have.
You frequently say you are here to refute everything you perceive to be wrong. Well, Tim, we can all play that game.
Amazing isn't it. So emotional especially for an 'airline analyst'. :)
Don’t bother.
Tim has serious mental issues, and UA and DL are his triggers. He can’t help it. That’s why he was banned from almost everywhere in the aviation community and no one takes him seriously. Just ignore the sick things his mind produces and enjoy the pure entertainment that he provides by making such a fool of himself.
thank for proving that you really don't want to engage in conversation with people that have different opinions from you.
Healthy adjusted people that can engage in conversation with people of diverse ideas don't celebrate other people's lack of conversation on other platforms.
A.net is nothing but endless arguments in conversations that never die.
none of which changes the real issue which is that the vast majority of very successful airlines have a...
thank for proving that you really don't want to engage in conversation with people that have different opinions from you.
Healthy adjusted people that can engage in conversation with people of diverse ideas don't celebrate other people's lack of conversation on other platforms.
A.net is nothing but endless arguments in conversations that never die.
none of which changes the real issue which is that the vast majority of very successful airlines have a variety of products and they are not at all close to being comparable.
the 767 is the smallest widebody, is on its last few years, and allows DL to compete in a number of markets where other airlines use narrowbodies or, in the case of UA, high density 777s.
The simple reality is that there are a very small number of routes on which DL uses the 763 that are competitive with other airline widebodies that are configured with their best international product.
The DL 763 is most competitive with UA's domestic 777s - largely to Hawaii - and with the 757s to Europe and DL's 763s compare quite favorably from a product standpoint.
that is simply a fact that a whole lot of people don't want to hear.
See ? Told ya !
It’s as easy as that.
I’ve had a harder time trying to bait my shitzu than little Timmy …
Turkish Airlines isn't on here? They have 2-3-2 in business class.
It's really comfortable though. Lots of space to stretch out
@James K. -- agree. Compared to LH and BA, way more comfortable.
I fly Turkish Airlines almost exclusively and I actually appreciate the different J configurations on their aircraft. When I'm traveling solo I choose an aircraft that offers the reverse herringbone configuration but when I'm traveling with my wife and toddler, we appreciate the 2-3-2 layout as we can all sit together. I would imagine the seats and comfort layout far exceeds the experience of some of these other products, like that toilet of an airline from India.
Because all the other products on here are the same?
Your claims about it being "comfortable" or preferring the layout, when things like Emirates or Lufthansa have the same qualities.
For me it depends on the context.
For example, flying solo on a full flight I would hate to be on a 2x2x2 set up.
Flying solo on a quiet flight in business with seat empty next to me or with my partner then 2x2x2 is one of my faves. I love the sense of open space and no cubby holes for feet or awkward positions for sleeping.
TG 77E business class?
A few personal takeaways:
1. herringbone seats. Although hated, and I agree on the storage part, I've had some of my best nights of sleep on short transatlantic hops in herringbone seats on AC and VS.
2. LH 2-2-2 biz. Not private, but not all of us care. Really comfortable and convenient when traveling with someone.
3. BA 2-4-2 biz. As a family of four, the middle section is also really convenient.
Yeah but what about important things like wireless charging pads and shoe cupboards??
Ronnie, they did not have such things when you started to fly last century. You managed then and the proletariat will manage nicely now without them …. :-)
+ as a family of 4, we definitely prefer the BA yin-yang configuration in CW, vs the Club Suites. Although on the A380, we still select the upper deck as it is a lot quieter - in that case we select two of the outboard seats and 2 out of the 3 seats in the middle.
Minipods in Qatar its 777…. there are about 6 planes with these angled lie flat seats and no plans for retrofit
Although UK based and not having any experience of ex-Gatwick based BA seats. After hundreds of flying hours, I can attest to the quality of the LHR based A350, transatlantic J seat. It worked for me for many years and may well be the exception to Ben’s opinion of other BA true business seats.
Ugh, a worse ride than anything you'd find on Grindr!
I would add Turkish Airlines' awful 2-3-2 configuration on their B777s (of which they have many). They also send these to prime markets like JFK. I would rank that somewhere between Air India's and Emirates' 2-3-2 configurations.
Outdated, but its massive leg space makes it really comfortable.
Another one: Turkish Airlines older a330 'Business' class with broken angle-flat stuck upright for an 8+ hour redeye. That will make you wanna 'stay home' next time.
Oh, and older 777 on Qatar, 2-2-2 is a real disappointment, especially if you're expecting Q-Suite, but then the airline does a last-minute swap for a 13 hour flight...
Some of TK A330 literally have recliners
Yup. And, from experience, their actual recliners are better than the angle-flat that's broken and won't recline at all. Of course, the newer a330 with true lie-flat is just fine. But you never know what you'll get until the day of the flight. Constant swaps.
I've flown some of these (like Ethiopian) when I have no choice and I mostly agree with your assessment- except for this. I don't find "angled flat" seats inherently inferior to lie flat. I'd rather have a well cushioned and amply wide/open angled flat seat than a narrow lie flat seat with no room for my shoulders and a tight footwell. I actually end up sometimes not fully reclining in those kinds of lie flat...
I've flown some of these (like Ethiopian) when I have no choice and I mostly agree with your assessment- except for this. I don't find "angled flat" seats inherently inferior to lie flat. I'd rather have a well cushioned and amply wide/open angled flat seat than a narrow lie flat seat with no room for my shoulders and a tight footwell. I actually end up sometimes not fully reclining in those kinds of lie flat seats so I don't feel so locked in. Width is actually more important to me than absolute flat pitch and I think it does not get enough attention in reviews.
Air Canada - constantly deflates - issue hasnt been fixed in years.
Immovable tray table bruises knees if you are a side sleeper.
Copa's business class seats belong on the list too.
If it's their 2-2, lie-flat, for a 737, it's not bad, especially for their 5-7 hour flights across the Americas; like, it's far better than a mere recliner, which is what nearly every other 737 operator, except SQ with it's 2-2, 1-1, 2-2 configuration.
Aerolineas Argentinas business class was so bad and the food was inedible.
EgyptAir 777-330 Biz please? It's basically the same seat as AI, or Emirates or other angled flat seats
Intra-Europe 'Business' Class simply should not be called 'Business'... it's an economy seat with a middle blocked in 3-3 configurations, or the seat open next to you in 2-2 configurations, or just simply a better snack/meal.
South America is interesting, too, where Aerolineas Argentinas calls their First/Business recliners 'Premium Economy' (when that would be like a domestic First in the US), while LATAM calls its 3-3 middle-blocked 'Premium Economy' but is more akin to...
Intra-Europe 'Business' Class simply should not be called 'Business'... it's an economy seat with a middle blocked in 3-3 configurations, or the seat open next to you in 2-2 configurations, or just simply a better snack/meal.
South America is interesting, too, where Aerolineas Argentinas calls their First/Business recliners 'Premium Economy' (when that would be like a domestic First in the US), while LATAM calls its 3-3 middle-blocked 'Premium Economy' but is more akin to what Intra-Europe 'Business' is like.
Confusing stuffs.
im gonna try and guess tim's comment. ok here it goes:
"Typical clickbait meant to trigger me by not including United's horrible 777-200 with a 2-4-2 configuration. Delta pays its employees the highest in the US and also United still has unhappy employees and have not ratified a new labor deal yet. Also Delta has superior RASM/CASM. Also if I was on Royal Maroc I would obviously be a bottom"
Not just Tim, anyone who's flown United's ultra-dense, super-old, rear-facing, 2-4-2 config. 772 knows it's not the best, but, still, it's better than a recliner, and a recliner is better than economy. Yes, United's flight attendants should keep fighting for a better contract, and I hope they prevail.
Delta's flight attendants, maintenance technicians, and baggage handlers absolutely should join their pilots (since 1934!) and dispatchers in organizing. Those workers can both enjoy profit-sharing as well...
Not just Tim, anyone who's flown United's ultra-dense, super-old, rear-facing, 2-4-2 config. 772 knows it's not the best, but, still, it's better than a recliner, and a recliner is better than economy. Yes, United's flight attendants should keep fighting for a better contract, and I hope they prevail.
Delta's flight attendants, maintenance technicians, and baggage handlers absolutely should join their pilots (since 1934!) and dispatchers in organizing. Those workers can both enjoy profit-sharing as well as job protections and other benefits that come with unions.
the comment would be that
1. Some of the world's most successful and largest airlines have large portions of their fleets w/ inferior business class products - but they don't seem to suffer because of it. It blows the mind that Ben harps on DL's NPS but doesn't think that other airlines aren't affected by far larger numbers of "inferior" aircraft.
and
2. DL manages to use its 763s in markets where...
the comment would be that
1. Some of the world's most successful and largest airlines have large portions of their fleets w/ inferior business class products - but they don't seem to suffer because of it. It blows the mind that Ben harps on DL's NPS but doesn't think that other airlines aren't affected by far larger numbers of "inferior" aircraft.
and
2. DL manages to use its 763s in markets where most of them are actually superior to the competition - specifically domestic routes including to Hawaii and transcons and competitive with UA 757s.
in other words, DL uses MOST of its 763 as a widebody on routes competitive with older narrowbodies and widebodies.
It blows my mind that Ben is incapable of seeing that DL uses its fleet where each fleet type's attributes best work.
BA, EK and LH certainly don't segregate their fleet USE as well as DL does.
"Some of the world's most successful and largest airlines have large portions of their fleets w/ inferior business class products"
That describes Delta Air Lines perfectly.
@2 That's funny, Tim, because in my anecdotal experience, I've never once flown a Delta 763 domestically, but I have flown them TPAC, TATL, and to South America all within the past 6 years. Plus every 737 I get on seems to lack IFE and charging. I love Delta, they've got some rockstar employees, but their hard product experience has been thoroughly "meh".
Tim, no question. I agree.
TLDNR: DL is 763 in J is better than a narrowbody on the same route.
While I got stuck on a 763 out of BOS pre pandemic, it was only because my incoming flight was delayed and I missed the 333. In reflection, I should have been happy. When this happened again in 2024, they couldn't get me better than Y on the later 333. So, 1) I...
Tim, no question. I agree.
TLDNR: DL is 763 in J is better than a narrowbody on the same route.
While I got stuck on a 763 out of BOS pre pandemic, it was only because my incoming flight was delayed and I missed the 333. In reflection, I should have been happy. When this happened again in 2024, they couldn't get me better than Y on the later 333. So, 1) I can easily schedule a TATL DL flight and never get a 763 (since I have 5 DL hubs that make sense, though MSP is marginal) and 2) if I can't avoid a 763, it is nearly certain no other airline flies that route with a widebody (and their narrowbody is 2-2).
On Delta's ancient 763s, here's the thing, yes, the aircraft and seats are old, no doubt. However, there's still a sweet spot for Medallions that selected RUCs and GUCs, being able to purchase Main and get D1, instead of having to purchase more expensive Premium Select to upgrade to D1 using the certificate. RUCs and GUCs are far better than AA SWU and UA PlusPoints, as RUCs and GUCs are far more likely to confirm...
On Delta's ancient 763s, here's the thing, yes, the aircraft and seats are old, no doubt. However, there's still a sweet spot for Medallions that selected RUCs and GUCs, being able to purchase Main and get D1, instead of having to purchase more expensive Premium Select to upgrade to D1 using the certificate. RUCs and GUCs are far better than AA SWU and UA PlusPoints, as RUCs and GUCs are far more likely to confirm at booking, instead of dying on the waitlist like AA and UA.
You forgot Southwest.
Umm, Southwest doesn't have 'Business' class, so...
Yet they offer a domestic first/business fare, formerly known as Business Select. Withoya blocked middle seat, it is worse than intra-Europe business class.
Ah, yeah, they call it Choice Extra nowadays. Since they're doing assigned seats starting the end of the month, it's all about to get very interesting at SW. I got the $500 Chase Travel credit to use... so... *throws hands up*
OMG clearly you have not flown Pakistan international Airlimes! Worst business class on earth! At least the flight attendants were cute.
@ Dan Nainan -- I have flown Pakistan International Airlines, and yes, the premium cabin is pretty awful. However, it's marketed as "Executive Economy" and not business class, so... :-)