How Much Are Ultimate Rewards Points Worth? (2021)

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Determining the value of points can be a highly subjective exercise, where people arrive at wildly different numbers. With the increasing popularity of transferable points currencies over the years, deciding on the value of points has become even more challenging, with people arriving at wildly different valuations.

In this post I wanted to share how I come up with the valuation for one of my favorite points currencies, Chase Ultimate Rewards.

Why I think Ultimate Rewards points are worth 1.7 cents each (January 2021 valuation)

Chase Ultimate Rewards points are one of the most valuable and widely collected points currencies out there. Personally, I’ve long stated that I value Ultimate Rewards points at roughly 1.7 cents each, and I’ve received a lot of questions over the years about how I come up with that valuation. In this post I wanted to take a closer look at how I arrived at that number.

There’s No Correct Valuation For Points

Let me start by saying that while I believe there’s a right and wrong way to go about valuing points, there’s not actually a widely agreed upon valuation of points.

Just as I say that Ultimate Rewards points are worth 1.7 cents each, some may say that they’re worth 1.5 cents each, while others may say that they’re worth 2.0 cents each. They’re not necessarily any more right or wrong than I am.

General Approach To Valuing Points

A while back Travis wrote a series explaining how to value points based on your earning and redemption patterns. He’s much more of a scientific thinker than I am, so check out his series:

The simplest way to explain it is that points are worth some amount between your acquisition cost and your redemption value. Where in that range your valuation falls depends entirely on how you choose to redeem points. With credit card points the acquisition cost math gets murky, since you have to view that in terms of the opportunity cost of earning those points (for example, how much cash back could you otherwise earn with another credit card?).

In a simple diagram, here’s how he explained his methodology for valuing points:

redeeming and earning combined 3

With airline miles you’ll typically get the most value out of first & business class redemptions, though transferable points currencies give you a bit more flexibility in terms of the ways you can redeem while optimizing your points.

If you are going to redeem points for a first or business class ticket, personally I think you can only value miles based on how much you’d otherwise be willing to pay for that ticket, rather than how much the ticket costs in cash.

If you redeem 100,000 miles for a ticket that would cost $10,000 in cash, you’re not actually getting 10 cents per mile of value, assuming you wouldn’t have paid that in cash. Instead the real value you’re getting is how much you otherwise would have been willing to pay for the ticket. At least that’s how I recommend approaching it when valuing points.

Other people disagree with my logic and would suggest that they are in fact getting 10 cents of value per point in the above scenario. While I understand the logic, I’d ask those people if they’d be willing to buy Ultimate Rewards points for nine cents each in that case (you can’t actually buy them, so this is theoretical, but still…).

So if you want to argue that you’re getting 43 cents of value per Ultimate Rewards points (or something) I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong, though I also think that “valuation” isn’t terribly useful.

The Two Best Ways To Redeem Ultimate Rewards Points

In the case of Ultimate Rewards points, there are two “optimal” ways to redeem these points that have to be considered when coming up with a value:

Redeem Points As Cash Towards Travel

Ultimate Rewards points can be redeemed as cash towards the cost of a travel purchase, including for things like flights, hotels, car rentals, and more. The amount of value you get per point varies based on the most premium card you have:

It’s not just about which card you’re earning points with, but rather about which card is the most premium, since you can transfer points between accounts. So if you have the Chase Sapphire Reserve and Ink Business Preferred, all points can be redeemed for 1.5 cents each towards the cost of a travel purchase.

As you can see, this establishes a base value of 1.25-1.5 cents per Ultimate Rewards point, depending on which card you have.

Redeem points for 1.5 cents each towards the cost of a travel purchase

Transfer Points To An Airline Or Hotel Partner

The other way you can redeem your Ultimate Rewards points is to transfer them to one of the Chase Ultimate Rewards airline or hotel partners.

All three cards earning premium Ultimate Rewards points have the ability to transfer points to these 13 partners, which include 10 airline programs and three hotel programs:

Aer Lingus Aer ClubIHG Rewards Club
Air France/KLM Flying BlueMarriott Bonvoy
British Airways Executive ClubWorld Of Hyatt
Emirates Skywards
Iberia Plus
JetBlue TrueBlue
Singapore KrisFlyer
Southwest Airlines Rapid Rewards
United MileagePlus
Virgin Atlantic Flying Club

In deciding the value of Ultimate Rewards points, we have to decide the value of the points currencies you can transfer to. Personally, my valuations of these points are roughly as follows:

Ultimate Rewards Transfer PartnerTransfer RatioValue Of Points
Aer Lingus Aer Club1000 : 10001.3 cents
Air France KLM FlyingBlue1000 : 10001.3 cents
British Airways Executive Club1000 : 10001.3 cents
Emirates Skywards1000 : 10001.0 cents
Iberia Plus1000 : 10001.3 cents
JetBlue TrueBlue1000 : 10001.3 cents
Singapore Airlines KrisFlyer1000 : 10001.4 cents
Southwest Rapid Rewards1000 : 10001.3 cents
United MileagePlus1000 : 10001.4 cents
Virgin Atlantic Flying Club1000 : 10001.2 cents
IHG Rewards Club1000 : 10000.5 cents
Marriott Rewards1000 : 10000.7 cents
World Of Hyatt1000 : 10001.5 cents

Transfer points to World of Hyatt for redemptions at the Park Hyatt Maldives

How Can Points Be Worth More Than Any Individual Redemption Opportunity?

You might be saying to yourself “well wait a second, how can Ultimate Rewards points be worth 1.7 cents each, when the most you value any of the individual redemption opportunities with the Chase Sapphire Reserve® Card is 1.5 cents per point?”

Some may disagree with my approach here, though let me first say that I intentionally value points very conservatively, much more so than many. That’s because every time I decide whether to pay cash or redeem points for something I crunch the numbers, and I don’t want to establish a value where I create an unrealistic expectation of points.

So how can I value Ultimate Rewards points more than any of the individual currencies you can redeem the points for? Because one aspect of my valuing points is applying a discount to account for the fact that they’re prone to devaluations:

  • If you’re collecting a specific points currency, the value of your points can decrease significantly overnight
  • If you’re collecting a transferable points currency, you have a ton more flexibility, and therefore I think it’s only reasonable to apply a premium to the points, in this case of a bit over 10%

Simply put, I value an Ultimate Rewards point more than any of the individual redemption options because I’d rather hold onto flexible Ultimate Rewards points than points with a particular partner, and I need to account for that in my valuation.

The valuation of a particular points currency isn’t based on the absolute most value you can get out of those points, but rather is based on an achievable redemption that takes into account the decreasing value of points over time.

That’s to say that I could get more than 1.5 cents of value per World of Hyatt point, but that’s a “conservative” valuation of those points. Therefore it seems logical that I’d value Ultimate Rewards points higher, since those points give me even more redemption options and flexibility.

Transfer Ultimate Rewards points to KrisFlyer for redemptions in Singapore Airlines first class

What Does That Mean For Cards Earning Ultimate Rewards Points?

Given my valuation of 1.7 cents per point, what does this mean for the return on spending offered by the major cards earning Ultimate Rewards points?

As you can see, those are some impressive returns.

On personal cards, it’s tough to beat the combination of the Sapphire Reserve and Freedom Unlimited, and for business cards both the Ink Preferred and Ink Cash offer some valuable bonus categories.

Ultimate Rewards Value Summary

There’s no objective valuation of points that everyone will agree on. Rather I try to provide general guidance as to how I value points, noting that everyone will redeem their points differently, and get different value out of them.

With that in mind, I like to value points conservatively, because I don’t want to create unrealistic expectations, and then have people hoarding points they’ll never get a good value out of.

Personally, 1.7 cents per Ultimate Rewards point is a value I’ve long felt good about, and continue to feel good about. By my logic:

  • Redeeming Ultimate Rewards points for 1.5 cents each towards a travel purchase isn’t an ideal redemption, though others can value the points slightly less and find this to be a great redemption
  • While I don’t value the points of any individual transfer partner at 1.7 cents, I intentionally value Ultimate Rewards points at a premium, due to their flexibility

I’m curious to see how my valuation of Ultimate Rewards points compares to how you guys value them.

What do you think — how much are Ultimate Rewards points worth?

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  1. Lucky, good work. I have two major accounts that generate large amounts of points, one being my Corporate AMEX PLT and my Chase Sapphire. Generally wait until there is a transfer bonus offer to a airline ( international ) then plan a trip! That 20% bonus say to AF is huge. My Sapphire points are the wild card sometimes I use direct for those “local” boutique hotels in Europe or now with Chase beginning to offer bonus transfers I will wait.

    My “valuation” is solely based on usage.

    Travel safe !

  2. Globalists with World of Hyatt are apt to value Ultimate Rewards points more highly for practical and aspirational reasons:

    * The World of Hyatt program gives Globalists free parking (valet or self-park) on stays booked with points. In places like San Francisco or San Diego, where the rate can run $60+ a night, that’s huge.

    * Globalists can requalify on points stays (points stays count as an eligible night). So it is useful to have a potentially large stash of points available.

    * Some cities and destinations seem to tack on a billion different taxes on a stay; points stays nullify all of those extra charges.

    * Globalists can get confirmed suite upgrades of up to seven nights, even on points stays, using the four “confirmed suite upgrade certificates” that World of Hyatt gives them every year. Globalists tend to get a lot more out of the dollars and points they use to book Hyatt properties.

    I use my World of Hyatt credit card for all Hyatt-related purchases, my Chase Sapphire Reserve for travel and restaurant purchases, and (soon, after I’m approved) the Chase Unlimited Freedom for everyday spend. This maximizes my potential WoH points earning while leaving flexibility to use the points for other travel-related purchases.

  3. I got $.045 on a Hyatt redemption earlier this year, great use of a lot of UR points for 2 rooms for 7 nights. Great stay, if we had booked the rooms with cash it would have been $18k…no way I pay for that!

  4. I completely agree with your logic. I usually can get more than 1.7x though because I only use on International Business class. Although it’s ironic, I have transferred out about 500,000 of UR in the past few years to partners, bought tickets, and in just about every case ended up cancelling those tickets. So now those UR have been “stranded” at various carriers. I’m sure they will get used eventually but in the meantime are more subject to devaluation.

  5. This is a Good Place for a Cautionary Tale

    A note of caution in interpreting the average values of loyalty points currencies given here or elsewhere: they are not **literally** the same United States (US) cents. REALLY.

    The value of loyalty points are US cents *PER* points currency denomination (e.g., 1.7cents PER UR point.) If you tleave out the ‘PER points currency denomination’, then the value is meaningless. The ‘absolute’ CENT is US currency and not a loyalty currency, which is different for every program because each awards a different number their POINTS for the same number of US cents spent.

    A Hyatt Globalist with WoH Chase visa earns 10.4 WoH points PER 100 US cents.
    A Hilton Diamond with the AMEX Surpass card earns 32 HHonors points PER 100 US cents.

    It means that cents PER WoH point should referred to as WoH-cents and cents PER HHonors point should be called 0.5 HH-cent. They are cents in different currencies, like you have cents in USD and cents in Australian dollars (AUD). Because you cannot compare USD and AUD cents without first doing *hard* currency conversion, you also cannot compare WoH-cents and HH-cents without doing a *points* currency conversion. The points currency conversion FACTOR is their relative earn rates.

    Hilton-to-Hyatt = 32HH/$:10.3WOH/$ = 3.045 = 3.0

    To go from HH-cents to WoH-cents you must multiple the former by 3 or divide the latter by 3.

    1.5 WoH-cents = 1.5/3 = 0.5 HH-cent

    Hilton:-to-BONVBoY: 32HH/$:23.5BV/$= 1.4

    So, if a Hilton point is worth 0.5 HH-cent, to convert it to a BONVoY-cent, we must multiple by 1.4:

    0.5 * 1.4 = 0.7 BVONVoY-cent.

    See how that works?

    Just like that, I have derived the values of the 3 currencies that are the same as @ Lucky’s.

    If I estimate a Hilton point to be worth 0.5 cent (Hilton CENT, not US cent)


    a BONVoY point would be worth 0.5 * 1.4 = 0.7 cent (BONVoY CENT, not US cent)

    a WoH point would be worth 0.5 * 3 = 1.5 cents (WOH cents, not US cents)

    It means that 0.5 HH-cent is worth exactly the same as 1.5 WoH-cents, and both are worth exactly the same as 0.7 BONVoY-cent.

    Do not kid yourself into thinking — *every* travel blogger does — that 0.5cent PER Hilton point is *LITERALLY* the same as 0.5 US cent, so that it is worth less than 1.5cents PER WoH point because the latter is LITERALLY the same as 1.5 US cent. Nope, 1.5cents PER WoH point are worth exactly the same as 0.5cent PER HHonors point.

    Very trivial stuff that inexplicably trips up virtually every self-anointed ‘travel guru.’


  6. Chase has lost their most lucrative transfer partner (Korean) and pretty much all of their other partners have devalued in 2019. And yet your valuation remains the same? Mine doesn’t. I value them at 1.5 cents per point with the Chase Sapphire Reserve. I can rarely achieve better value than this.

  7. The value of a UR point is, by virtue of its flexibility, worth slightly more than the value of its highest single-currency redemption values. Right now, both a Hyatt point and the CSR redemption value of a UR point are worth 1.5 cents each. The slightly higher value (1.7 cents per point) that Lucky assigns basically means he values the choice/option to choose between them (or other currency such as United’s) at 0.2 cents per point above the nominal 1.5 cents.

    However, the ongoing devaluation of points is likely to lower Lucky’s valuation over time. Suppose Hyatt, United, and every other points currency becomes worth less than 0.5 cents per point. Would Lucky still say a UR point is worth 1.7 cents each? The answer would be no, at that point a UR point is only worth 1.5 (or maybe 1.51) cents assuming you hold the Sapphire Reserve. (The value of the flexibility/option simply wouldn’t be able to overcome the gaping difference between the 1.5-cent CSR redemption value and the value of the sharply devalued points currencies.)

  8. @ JR sez: “Hilton points are worthless.”

    The surprise would’ve been if you didn’t think that. Next time, I suggest you send in Sr., who might get it. This stuff is way over your head. However, if it’s any consolation, you’re in good company in that respect 😉


  9. @DCS – You’re getting confused in your “Cautionary Tale”. This article concerns *redemption* value of points once earned (regardless of how they were earned and at what rate). The earn rates for the various cards (e.g., your 10.4 WoH/$ and 32 HHonors/$) are a reflection of the differences in card value, not point value.

  10. Transferability/less chance of devaluation are features baked into the cake of all 4 currencies, so I don’t think a premium should be assigned. They are part & parcel of why you “invest” in those currencies to begin with.

    Like most things, “worth” is what a buyer will pay to a seller – .015 max in the case of the UR for hotels/travel portal redemptions & potentially more for premium airline seats (but also not a given).

  11. @Pam – Yes, the ability to transfer to multiple travel partners is a benefit of most of the major travel rewards cards, and all of those cards points should therefore have a premium over their respective transfer partners points. I don’t understand your point (no pun intended!) about why those points shouldn’t have a premium valuation? And I agree, “worth” is subjective. IMO, and based on my past redemptions, .015 is significantly undervalued.

  12. @DCS You’re so eager to defend Hilton that you’re missing the most obvious flaw in your argument- redemption rates are the basis for valuations, not earning rates. The fact that the standard Hyatt redemption chart tops out at 30k vs 95k for Hilton is all the evidence you need that a single Hyatt point is approximately 3x as valuable as a Hilton point. Hilton makes up for it by offering huge earnings potential and I still find a lot of value in Hilton points, but if I’m using a transferable currency, transferring to Hilton is always a poor return.

  13. UR’s are essentially Hyatt points for me now. The lack of unique partners and transfer bonuses makes them option #3 for transfers to airline partners, but there’s still a lot of value to be had with Hyatt. If Hyatt ever has a significant devaluation, it’s going to kill the value of UR’s.

  14. I value them at 1.5cpp, because that is what they are worth when transferred to Southwest, on a consistent cash=points basis. Since they fly non-stop to over 40 cities at airports within an hour of my home, that is an easy use and valuation. If I had the CSR, it would be the same valuation because of the portal.
    As a half million miler on United, I have, and have used, many MP points over the years, but it is hard to get even 1cpp in non-premium cabin redemptions any more.

    I have also recently had a few IHG and Marriott redemptions at almost 2cpp, with fourth and fifth nights free, in the high season and at hotels where I would normally stay and pay the cash rate. But I would never transfer UR points to these programs, since those points are easier to earn.

    And, yeah, Hilton points are not worth much. I have not seen a redemption at more than 0.5cpp, without the fifth night free (and then just barely), at places that I would normally stay (i.e., no WA or Conrad in big cities). That is why Amex MR points transfer to HH at a 1:2 ratio, and a 1:1 ratio to other point programs.

  15. DCS, I understand that relentlessly defending Hilton is your thing, and there’s some merit to what you write, but the big flaw is that most people do not earn UR points via hotel stays at Hyatt or Hilton. I agree that if someone were to only be earning their points on stays at the two chains they would be similar in value because you earn Hilton points 3x faster. But that’s clearly not the reality for people; we all spend money on travel and dining that aren’t at a Hyatt or Hilton. And for those of us who aren’t road warriors we probably rarely stay at those hotels for cash stays. I know that when I travel for leisure, there is almost always a much better option than one of those two chains that I’d rather spend my hard earned cash on. And if there is a good Hyatt option where I’m going, I use points rather than cash.

    Given that this article is valuing the transfer value to those brands, from points earned (largely) on non-Hyatt/Hilton travel and other spend, the valuation is correct. If the argument is about being loyal to staying at one chain over another, you’re right that the roughly 3x earn rates at Hilton makes it a similar value proposition.

  16. @Matt R — There is no ‘flaw’ in my argument. You are just confused, like everyone else…

    @Bob & @Matt R — This has little to do with Hilton, but everything to do with the fact that every single person in travel blogopshere, including self-anointed ‘travel gurus’, keeps getting wrong a simple concept that should be understood intuitively. The reaction here and elsewhere to my trying to explain it is why the “cautionary tale” is more appropriate than ever.

    The constantly peddled ***average*** redemption values of loyalty points currencies are ***not*** to be interpreted literally as ***absolute*** US cents because they are NOT. They are in US cents ***PER*** ‘points currency denomination.’ However, because the various points currency denominations are *** different*** (Hyatt points are *** not*** the same as Marriott points, which are ***not*** the same as Hilton points, which are ***not*** the same IHG points, etc), their “values” cannot possibly be in ***absolute*** US cents. They are always in US cents ***PER*** ‘points currency denomination’, like ‘cents **PER** Hyatt point’ or ‘cents PER Marriott points’.

    If you leave out the ‘PER denomination’, the value is ***meaningless***. That’s why you cannot keep comparing the average redemption values of points in ***absolute*** US cents and claiming that one with a larger magnitude is more ‘valuable’ than one with a smaller magnitude.

    I posed the question to kids working in my lab and every single one of them got the answer correctly. Why? Because they deal every day with things like “temperature” and know that 0 degree Celsius (°C) is not colder than 32 degrees Fahrenheit (°F). While both °F and °C measure “temperature”, they do so on ***different*** scales, which needs to be explicitly provided. It’s the same thing with points currencies. Hyatt measures its “points” from 0 to 30K (or now 40K), Hilton from 0 to 95K, Marriott from 0 to 100K, etc. Those are different “points” scales, just like like °F and °C are different “temperature” scales.

    So, if someone points at a block of ice and says it is worth 10cents/”degree” and then points at another block and says it is ‘worth’ 27cents/”degree”, it is impossible to tell which is worth more unless or until we know which “degrees” or temperature scale (°F or °C) was used!!!

    Let’s stay the “per degree” in the worth of the ice block above was an adjustment for the human body temperature, which is 98.6 °F *or* 37.0°C. Let’s also say that unadjusted for body temperature the block of ice costs 1000 US cents. Now let’s adjust the value based on the human body temperature:

    (A) on the °F scale: 1000 US cents/98.6 °F = 10.1 cents per”degree”


    (B) on the °C scale: 1000 US cents/37.0°C = 27.0 cents per “degree”

    From the preceding, do we conclude that the block of ice adjusted for body temperature is worth more in (B) (27cents/”degree”) than in (A) (10cents/”degree”)? OF COURSE NOT!!! The block of ice is worth exactly the SAME in (A) and (B). The problem is (a) interpreting ‘cents’ literally as “”absolute” US cents and forgetting about the *PER* ‘degree’ part, and (b) leaving out information about the scale (°F or °C) “degree” was measured in!

    The analogy with points currencies fits to a ‘t’: (a) interpreting ‘cents” literally and forgetting about the *PER* ‘points currency denomination’ part, and (b) leaving out information about the scale “point” is measured in (WoH, HH, IHG, etc).

    Bottom line: This has little to do with trying to “make Hilton look good.” The program was always competitive and it is now the dominant program, so there is no need to try to “make it look good.” Rather, this is about setting straight something very simple that should be understood by people dealing with “values of points” daily, but is *universally* misunderstood and missused!

    Class dismissed!

  17. DCS is truly the ultimate troll.

    This article is really just about the burn part of the equation. It’s purposefully NOT talking about the earn rate.

    All he is doing is, again, derailing the conversation to talk about Hilton. Unnecessarily. He just HATED always seeing Starwood and now just HATES seeing Hyatt get more coverage than a Hilton program with mediocre benefits and an inflationary currency.

  18. Postscript:

    Conversion from °F to °C?
    (°F − 32) × 5/9 = °C.
    It is why despite having its larger *magnitude* 32°F is not hotter than 0°C!

    The conversion FACTOR between WoH and HH points?
    You can use @Lucky’s average redemption values: 1.5cpp:0.5cpp = 3.

    Hyatt points are not worth more because their average redemption value of 1.5 cents is larger than Hilton 0.5cents. Without the *PER* those values are apples and oranges. Putting them on the same scale using the conversion FACTOR shows that they are worth exactly the same:

    0.5cents PER HH * 3HH/WoH = 1.5cents PER WoH.

    Or you can estimate the conversion FACTOR *objectively* based on the relative earn rates (so that one earns the *same number points* for the *same spend*) :
    — WoH Globalist with Chase WoH visa: 10.5x (AF: $95)
    — HH Diamond with AMEX HH Surpass: 32x (AF: $95)

    32x:10.5x = 3.048 = ~3.

    Hilton’s points are not worth more because you earn more of them than WoH points for the same spend. Putting them on the same scale using the conversion FACTOR shows they are worth the same:

    10.5 WoH points/$ * 3.048HH/WoH = 32 HH points/$.

    which sets the Aspire Diamond’s ‘earn’ above the rest 😉


  19. The preceding examples are trivial because they simply reiterate the relationship between the two points currencies. The principle, i.e. the conversion FACTOR of 3, holds for other values, as well. If I get a Hilton redemption of 1cpp, as I got a year ago at Hilton Pattaya, that is the same as getting a Hyatt redemption value of 3cpp. The two redemptions are worth **exactly** the same. The point should be clear by now…

  20. Will Chase ever add AA to it’s list of transferable partners ? 8 our of 10 times AA always has the best non-stop flights for us.

  21. @Jeff Don’t make yourself sick. The guy is either: 1) a troll who likes spending his time writing long-winded nonsensical posts, 2) someone who’s too bullheaded to get a grasp on the difference between cc earn rates and point redemption values, or 3) someone who realizes he was in error and is now trying to obfuscate–in which case he really should brush up on the First Rule of Holes.

  22. @AZrunnr — this is what you’d written on September 13, 2019 at 9:17 pm:
    “@DCS – You’re getting confused in your “Cautionary Tale”. This article concerns *redemption* value of points once earned (regardless of how they were earned and at what rate). The earn rates for the various cards (e.g., your 10.4 WoH/$ and 32 HHonors/$) are a reflection of the differences in card value, not point value.”

    I’d ignored it but it was the epitome of the utter and general confusion that those “long-winded nonsensical posts” just debunked, while showing full grasp and mastery of loyalty points calculus and thorough understanding of ‘CC earn rates’ (which 10.5 WoH/$ and 32HH/$ are NOT) and of the redemption value of points currencies, which not a single soul in travel blogosphere seems to understand.

    If I were you, I would feel nauseated as well that it is all so way over my head.

    Say something smart or saying nothing at all, as the alternative is to keep posting and leave no doubt that you are incapable of saying anything remotely smart.


  23. @DCS – I see you’re still digging. That leaves either 1) troll, or 2) ignoramus. I’m 50:50 on which it is, but I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s the latter; so here’s a last bit of advice: If you find yourself at odds with “every single person” on an issue, it’s highly likely that you’re the one who’s got it wrong.

  24. @AZrunnr sez: “If you find yourself at odds with “every single person” on an issue, it’s highly likely that you’re the one who’s got it wrong.i”

    This is posted *publicly*, meaning that it is an open invitation to prove it wrong, which you are not the person to do it because all you have done is to call me names while missing the much bigger target: the *content* of my post.

    In the meantime, here’s a definition that should enlighten you on your comment about “finding oneself at odd with every single person”: it’s called “ad populum.”

    “In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for “argument to the people”) is a **fallacious argument** that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: “If many believe so, it is so.””
    Your might also wish to look up “argumentum ad hominem” while at it.

    Chew on that and just stay out of stuff that is way over your head.


  25. Hey DCS troll – no one is arguing about the ease of earning relative currencies. Or being able to earn like 5,000 Hilton points/dollar since it’s so inflationary.

    This is just about the values of certain currencies, and how much to redeem them for.

    You don’t need to derail every thread on the blogs to put forward your pro-Hilton, anti-every else agenda.

    On behalf of the OMAAT readers – piss off, FFS.

  26. @azrunner – I think it depends if you are trying to assign a “value” in comparison to other point valuations. If that is the objective than, yes, all transferable currencies s/b worth more.

    If you are using the UR value, however, to figure out whether you are getting a good deal from point usage then it is an irrelevant “point.” In other words, if all I know I will be getting with my CSR UR is 1.5 on the travel portal than that is my value. If I am comparing a UR value, however, to an AA point than I intrinsically value the UR point higher (regardless of how I actually redeem it) because it is more flexible, etc. But for number crunching purposes, I would never say it is worth. 017 when all I am getting is .015 because then I would be overstating my actual redemption value. Thanks for the question.

  27. @Pam – Understood, and I agree. If you’ve built up a history of redemption values, that is going to be your most accurate valuation metric… As an aside, you bring up an interesting example comparing AA points to URs. Because URs don’t transfer to AA, it is possible that you could value AA points higher than URs (i.e., URs aren’t “intrinsically” higher value than AA points); however, in the case of transfer partners of Chase, URs should be at least as valuable as the airline points (assuming 1:1 transfer).

  28. @DCS – I did comment on your “content” (along with a number of others). Let me rephrase bluntly: Your rambling on about 10.5X and 32X points earned with this or that hotel card is completely irrelevant to the redemption value of UR points. This was politely pointed out to you multiple times when you could have engaged in discussion, yet you came back with snarky insults and continued your nonsensical rant ad nauseum–literally in the case of poor Jeff (wow!…I can speak Latin too!!)… in the immortal words of UA-NYC: “Tace atque abi” FFS.

  29. @MLM – Although URs don’t transfer to AA, they do transfer to British Airways Avios, which can be used to redeem flights on AA. BA recently devaluated partner redemptions; however, it still can be a decent deal (primarily for direct flights as the awards are distance-based). And Chase just recently did their first ever transfer bonus of 30% to BA which makes it an even better deal (hopefully they will repeat that bonus in the future, and initiate it with other airlines).

  30. @AZrunnr — Fine, you’d commented and, as I indicated, I’d initially ignored the comment because, well, it was clueless, just like above: 10.5x and 32x are not simply points earned with this or that CC, and if you understood anything I wrote, you’d have grasped the relevance to the redemption values of points currencies **in general** and not just to UR points.

    However, here’s the kicker: although I’d initially ignored you, you are now accusing of “cam[ing] back with snarky insults”. No, I decided to address you after you said this “politely” about me on September 14, 2019 at 3:05 pm :

    “The guy is either: 1) a troll who likes spending his time writing long-winded nonsensical posts, 2) someone who’s too bullheaded to get a grasp on the difference between cc earn rates and point redemption values, or 3) someone who realizes he was in error and is now trying to obfuscate–in which case he really should brush up on the First Rule of Holes.”

    Here’s another useful definition for you, then we’re done because this is a total waste of time, as there is no way you are likely to understand anything in my post, so ad hominems will be your recourse, like they generally are for those who are clueless:

    “Ad hominem (Latin for “to the person”), short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a **fallacious argumentative strategy** whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.”

    Have a nice life.

  31. Hey DCS, you clearly aren’t doing a good job of explaining yourself because it’s still completely unclear to everyone else here why earn rates from staying at a hotel have any relevance to transfer values from UR. To put it quite simply, when transferring 1:1 it costs a lot more UR points to stay at a Hilton hotel via transfer than a Chase hotel. In fact, it’s often fewer UR points to book a Hilton hotel through the UR travel portal than the transfer to HHonors. That’s not the case with Hyatt, where I almost exclusively redeem them for 2-3 cents a point or more.

    If I had to choose a hotel loyalty program, your long-winded posts might be useful. Most people here, as I explained before, don’t travel enough to do that and just want to know where to transfer their UR points. You completely ignored that part of my post and shot back with even more convoluted posts “proving” something was was irrelevant to my post.

    Short version: transferring to Hilton is almost never worthwhe from UR without a transfer bonus, but that doesn’t mean Hilton is bad in other ways!

  32. @Bob sez “Hey DCS, you clearly aren’t doing a good job of explaining yourself because it’s still completely unclear to everyone else here why earn rates from staying at a hotel have any relevance to transfer values from UR.”

    Hey, Bob, nah, what I tried to explain remains unclear to you because hotel earn rates and UR points per se had nothing to do with what my “Cautionary Tale” was about. You just assumed, erroneously, that I was trying to make case for Hilton and did not get the gist of my post. In fact, you still don’t.

    Read the post again and see if you’ll get it the second time around, but let me first ask you a simple question: “Per @Lucky, the average redemption value of a Hyatt point is about 1.5 cents and that of a Marriott point is 0.7cent. Which of those two hotel points currencies is worth more?”

    It’s not a trick question, but practically everyone in travel blogosphere, you included, gets the answer wrong. The relevance of “Cautionary Tale” post here? Understand the Tale and the relevance will be obvious…


  33. One the unit of “currency” is generated, how one earned it is irrelevant. And yes, a Hyatt point >>>Marriott point>>>Hilton point. That is why it’s generally stupid to transfer UR to Marriott and generally smart to transfer UR to Hyatt.

    DCS may teach at an Ivy League school, but clearly didn’t learn at one.

  34. “…a Hyatt point is about 1.5 cents and that of a Marriott point is 0.7cent. Which of those two hotel points currencies is worth more?”

    Much like the brazen stupidity of a flat earther, I suspect we’re about to get another rambling response that concludes a $1.50 isn’t worth more than $0.70.

    I’m actually grateful there are people out there like DCS. If everyone was equally adept at analyzing points and exploiting the system for maximum value, devaluations by the various programs would be even greater. I say pat the guy on his head and send him on his merry way.

  35. My bad for not playing fair! I should have made the following grade-school simple. Let me fix it by explaining where the values of 10.5x and 32x came from, and then demonstrate that “points earned with this or that hotel card” mentioned repeatedly here were completely irrelevant and simply further revealed the cluelessness.

    WoH Globalist: 5x (base) + 30% of base or 1.5x + 4x (Chase WoH CC) = 5x + 1.5x + 4x = 10.5x

    HH Diamond: 10x (base) + 100% of base or 10x + 12x (AMEX Surpass) + 10x + 10x +12x = 32x

    HH-to-WoH Conversion factor: 32x/10.5x = 3.05

    Now, let’s take out the “points earned with this or that hotel card”

    WoH: 10.5x – 4x = 6.5x
    HH: 32x – 12x = 20x

    and recompute the HH-to-WoH Conversion factor: 20x/6.5x = 3.08

    3.05 with CC earn
    3.08 without CC earn

    See, how stupid? “Points earned with this or that hotel card” had nothing to do with it; the relationship between the points currencies holds regardless because it is fundamental, and it extends to include the ratio of their highest award costs being about 3.


    Funny you said “flat earther” because Johannes Kepler, Nicolai Copernicus and Galileo Galilei were all given this piece of advice when they took the earn from the center of their world put the sun there and declared the earth to be a globe, putting themselves in mortal danger for not agreeing with everyone else:

    “If you find yourself at odds with “every single person” on an issue, it’s highly likely that you’re the one who’s got it wrong.”

    Yeah right. So, let me finally descend to your level:

    Please get lost. Stooopid does not begin to even begin describe you.

  36. @DCS The simple answer is that points earned in UR are not worth transferring to Marriott, IHG or Hilton as they value them 1:1 when the destination currencies are not remotely the same as airlines or Hyatt, as you correctly point out they are worth about 1/3.

    So it just makes it a crappy redemption for points earned in UR. Points earned directly in the respective programs of HH or Bonvoy with all the appropriate bonuses have vastly different earn rates which offer better value. I’d never put MR/HH *spend* on a UR card at an earn rate of 3 UR/$ when the programs themselves give 25-30 or more per $ (which after dividing by 3 is still a lot more than 3 UR).

    Not sure why you would need all that calculation for any reason other than for comparing one program to another based on value returned for spend within that program. For UR purposes it’s just simple: those two redemptions are a rip-off, others not so much. And the article valuing UR at 1.5-1.7c to MR/IHG 0.5-0.7c already bears out the math you are doing.

  37. @Peter sez: “@DCS The simple answer is that points earned in UR are not worth transferring to Marriott, IHG or Hilton as they value them 1:1 when the destination currencies are not remotely the same as airlines or Hyatt, as you correctly point out they are worth about 1/3.”

    Agreed that it generally makes no sense to transfer UR to Marriott, IHG or Hilton, but that is the right answer to a question that was not asked; and, no, I *did not point out* that Marriott, IHG or Hilton points were “worth” about 1/3 Hyatt points.

    The objective of my post, which you did not read but should if you are going to comment on it, was precisely to show that the hotel points currencies, when adjusted for their different scales and earn rates, are worth exactly the same. In fact, it is the differences in *scales* used by different hotel programs — a completely arbitrary choice — that make transferability of airline miles or UR points to hotel points more favorable for some than others; the smaller the scale, like SPG’s and Hyatt’s, the more favorable the transfer. I can get into the math, but it has nothing to do with the “worth” of the hotels points in “cents/point”. It’s just a difference is scales on which points are measured, just like there would be a difference “cents/degree” depending on whether one used the °F or °C scale to measure temperature…


  38. Guys DCS is a dogmatic troll who can’t take anything back, insults just about everyone, posts half lies and mistruths, and sees nothing wrong in himself. Remind you of anyone we might know these days?

  39. How about the points are priceless ie I get to travel and spend time seeing and doing things with the person I love. Going to Dallas this weekend for a 2 day music festival plus extra day to sightsee paid with points. Most likely would have had to take a pass if we had to pay on our own. It’s not about money they value is far more then .5 vs 1.2 vs 1.7 cents a point/mile.

  40. @azrunner – your statement about valuation based on historical usage is really key & why I take offense to bloggers overstating transferable currency values.

    A reader picking up a points & miles chart for the first time to decide what cards to get (based on bang for the buck) is misinformed that a UR is worth .02, for instance, vs an AA mile worth .015. Making financial decisions with limited knowledge of actually HOW to transfer to get .02 means the original value assigned is based on more advanced skills & not what you could take the point easily today & redeem. I think readers are presented a value that is off & might never actually be achieved. I think it is misleading & should instead reflect the MINIMUM value one can earn off a point without going thru any hoops or assigning any intangible value.

    Maybe if readers were presented with normal, good, & excellent values for a currency I could go along with some inflating. But that is never done & has historically instead been up to each blogger to communicate their own usage history which may, or may not, mirror another consumer’s.

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