I recently wrote about how operationally unreliable airlines were on Christmas. Airlines are pushed to their limits during these peak travel periods, and on top of that the weather issues we saw throughout the country didn’t help.
Broadly speaking, operational reliability is improving after Christmas, as weather is less of a factor than before. Unfortunately you wouldn’t know this if you were flying Southwest Airlines, though, as the airline is basically kaput right now. Here’s an up-to-date look at what’s going on at Southwest Airlines, as the situation is rapidly evolving.
In this post:
Southwest Airlines cancels thousands of flights
Southwest Airlines’ operation has been melting down nationwide over the past several days. However, while other airlines are starting to recover, Southwest’s situation is nowhere close to being back to normal.
Just how bad have things gotten? According to data from FlightAware:
- On December 25, 2022, Southwest had issues with 90% of its flights, as it canceled 42% of them and delayed 48% of them
- On December 26, 2022, Southwest had issues with 87% of its flights, as it canceled 71% of them and delayed 16% of them
- So far on December 27, 2022, Southwest had issued with 86% of flights, as it canceled 64% of them and delayed 22% of them (and this is only as of 7PM EST, so I imagine there will be more delays and cancelations)
- For December 28, 2022, Southwest has already proactively canceled 61% of flights
- For December 29, 2022, Southwest has already proactively canceled 24% of flights
The extent to which we’re seeing cancelations here is virtually unheard of. For example, the 64% of flights that have been canceled today amounts to 2,645 flights. When all is said and done, well over 15,000 flights will likely have been canceled, impacting millions of passengers.
Why is Southwest Airlines operating so unreliably?
Over the past couple of years airlines have struggled with staffing shortages, and we’ve seen some real meltdowns. However, I can’t remember the last time a major airline had problems to the point that it canceled 60-70% of its flights several days in a row.
Weather has improved considerably around the country, so this isn’t even directly about weather. For example, Southwest has hubs in similar markets to American (Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, etc.), and yesterday and today American canceled *checks notes*… 0% of its flights. My gosh, I feel like I’m living in an alternate reality when American sets the standard for operational reliability, but that’s where we’re at.
At this point Southwest is just doing a horrible job recovering its operation. This ultimately comes down to the carrier’s inability to correctly staff flights. In a memo from Southwest Airlines CEO Bob Jordan to employees, the airline pretty clearly lays out what the issue is:
We started off with the Winter Storm Elliott that really put pressure on our Ground Operations. The extreme cold weather made us limit the amount of time our Ground Operations staff were exposed. We started to see equipment freeze, jet bridges freeze, fuel congeal, and as a result, we had to modify our network, sometimes shutting down Crew bases operations for a while.
And, so we got through that part of it. I think similar to other airlines. The problem was in all those decisions, you end up impacting the Crew network. And the Crew network is a delicate thing because it’s governed by some strict regulations, and we have a complex network with Crews traveling throughout it. And, so when we finished with the winter storm, for the most part, then we found ourselves with Crew at a place where we’re not able to re-Crew the network. So, we had People that were legal. We had aircraft that were available, but the process of matching up those Crew Members with the aircraft could not be handled by our technology. In our desired state, we have a solver that would be able to do that very quickly and very accurately. Our system today cannot do that.
As a result, we had to ask our Crew Schedulers to do this manually, and it’s extraordinarily difficult. They must verify that you are legal. They can’t just have the next person up, so to speak. They have to look through everyone’s board and reassign. So that is a tedious, long process. And every day we try to repair the Crew network. They would make great progress, and then some other disruption would happen, and it would unravel their work. So, we spent multiple days where we kind of got close to finishing the problem, and then it had to be reset.
We will now rotate into multiple days of a lower level of activity, which means we’ll have more than ample Crew resources to handle that amount of activity. It will be difficult for Crew Scheduling to reassign it for everybody, but when they get through the transition to reassign it, they will have multiple days to get People in the spot for resumption of our original lines and such. And so that’s where we need to get back to — what’s the most reliable is getting back to what you originally did. And so, these multiple days are a way to transition into that.
As you can see, the issue isn’t necessarily that Southwest doesn’t have enough staff right now, but rather that the carrier chose to not invest in technology that would streamline crew scheduling. Southwest has really, really, really bad technology. I mean, up until 2017, the airline didn’t even have the ability to operate redeye flights due to its technology.
Make no mistake, while the weather of course isn’t Southwest’s fault, the mess that the airline is now in is 100% within its control. The airline chose not to invest in technology (unlike virtually all other US airlines), and it’s now paying the price.
Southwest Airlines statement on issues
While Southwest Airlines is communicating pretty transparently internally to employees, what’s the airline saying to the public? On Monday evening, the airline issued its first official press release about these issues:
With consecutive days of extreme winter weather across our network behind us, continuing challenges are impacting our Customers and Employees in a significant way that is unacceptable.
And our heartfelt apologies for this are just beginning.
We’re working with Safety at the forefront to urgently address wide-scale disruption by rebalancing the airline and repositioning Crews and our fleet ultimately to best serve all who plan to travel with us.
We were fully staffed and prepared for the approaching holiday weekend when the severe weather swept across the continent, where Southwest is the largest carrier in 23 of the top 25 travel markets in the U.S. This forced daily changes to our flight schedule at a volume and magnitude that still has the tools our teams use to recover the airline operating at capacity.
This safety-first work is intentional, ongoing, and necessary to return to normal reliability, one that minimizes last-minute inconveniences. We anticipate additional changes with an already reduced level of flights as we approach the coming New Year holiday travel period. And we’re working to reach to Customers whose travel plans will change with specific information and their available options.
Our Employees and Crews scheduled to work this holiday season are showing up in every single way. We are beyond grateful for that. Our shared goal is to take care of every single Customer with the Hospitality and Heart for which we’re known.
On the other side of this, we’ll work to make things right for those we’ve let down, including our Employees.
With no concern higher than ultimate Safety, the People of Southwest share a goal to take care of each and every Customer. We recognize falling short and sincerely apologize.
It’s nice to see Southwest acknowledging that this is “unacceptable.” That being said:
- It’s interesting that Southwest keeps trying to emphasize “safety,” when that’s not really relevant here, and seems like a way to avoid taking blame; I’m pretty sure American is also focused on safety, with 0% of flights canceled, but the airline did choose to invest in crew scheduling technology
- It’s disingenuous to claim that the airline was “fully staffed and prepared” for the holidays; obviously the airline wasn’t prepared for anything to go wrong, or else this wouldn’t have happened
- The airline clearly isn’t willing to actually take any accountability here; Southwest is acknowledging internally that the issue comes down to bad technology for crew scheduling, but doesn’t do anything to acknowledge that publicly in this statement
Southwest Airlines CEO Bob Jordan has been radio silent toward the public for the past several days, which is incredibly disappointing when the airline is dealing with its worst operational crisis in history. That finally changed on Tuesday evening, when he released a video message.
It’s nice to see this finally happen, though it seems like this should have come days ago. Furthermore, I wouldn’t exactly call this a very good apology, given just how bad the situation is. I’d say this message is both too little and too late.
What should you do if you’re scheduled to fly with Southwest Airlines?
Obviously lots of people have flights booked on Southwest Airlines, and are finding themselves at airports, caught up in this mess. What should you do if you find yourself with a canceled flight on Southwest? I know this isn’t the answer most people probably want to hear, but I think the best bet for now is to just go home, or find a hotel, or book a flight on another airline.
It’s almost impossible to get in touch with anyone at Southwest by phone, and there are reports of lines at Southwest customer service counters being many hours long. The further issue is that a vast majority of Southwest flights are sold out for the next several days, and that’s not even factoring in that more flights will likely be canceled.
You don’t want to spend five hours waiting in a customer service line, only to be told that the airline can rebook you in a week. I totally recognize that rebooking on another airline is a major expense for many, but unfortunately at this point it’s probably the only realistic option if you need to travel in the next few days.
On the plus side, Southwest has now set up a dedicated webpage for travel disruptions. At this link you can request a refund if your flight is canceled. The webpage also suggests that you can potentially email Southwest to request reimbursement for additional expenses incurred as a result of the carrier’s operational issues:
I’ve incurred additional expenses (e.g., hotel, rental car, food, etc.). Can I receive a reimbursement?
If you have been impacted by a flight cancellation or significant flight delay between December 24, 2022, and January 2, 2023, you may submit receipts for consideration via Email Us on Southwest.com. We will honor reasonable requests for reimbursement for meals, hotel, and alternate transportation.
Unfortunately this is pretty vague. If the only other available flight is another US airline and costs thousands of dollars, is that a reasonable expense? It seems like it should be since this is Southwest’s fault, but understandably most people probably don’t want to book something like that, only to be told “no.”
One more important thing to keep in mind — be nice to Southwest Airlines employees. This isn’t their fault in the slightest, and they’re showing up dealing with frustrated travelers day after day. I’m sure they feel bad for passengers, so directing any frustration toward employees isn’t warranted. They’re part of the solution, and not the problem.
Is it time for the government to do something?
The phrase “insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results” comes to mind. I can’t help but feel like that reflects the current situation at some airlines, and want to pose the question as to whether a public policy failure is partly to blame here.
I don’t think this is specific to any administration, but rather just comes down to the lack of consumer protections we’ve seen for airline passengers in the United States for decades.
Transportation Secretary Buttigieg has been working on meeting with airline CEOs to discuss operational reliability, and we’ve even seen the Department of Transportation (DOT) publish an airline customer service dashboard, to give airline customers a sense of what they can expect when things go wrong.
But when one of the largest airlines in the country cancels most of its flights multiple days in a row because it scheduled too aggressively and refused to invest in technology that could minimize this, clearly that wasn’t quite enough.
If airlines were held accountable more for operational breakdowns, maybe they’d be more responsible and conservative with their scheduling, and would also invest in the technology needed to avoid these kinds of situations:
- Airlines’ only obligations seem to be to shareholders, and they want to sell as many seats as they can for as many flights as possible, to maximize revenue; they hope for the best, and fail to plan for the worst
- If Southwest had planned its holiday operation more conservatively, the airline almost certainly wouldn’t have melted down in this way
- US airlines don’t have to meaningfully compensate passengers when things go wrong, so worst case scenario passengers get a refund, but that doesn’t exactly make them whole
- Based on the reports I’m seeing, airport employees are blaming almost all cancelations on “weather” (even if the issue is the carrier’s inability to recover from bad weather, rather than the weather as such), and therefore the claim is that the airline doesn’t have to pay for hotels, provide meal vouchers, etc.
- Southwest doesn’t have an interline agreement with other airlines, so passengers on canceled Southwest flights can’t even be rebooked on other airlines (not that there are many empty seats to rebook people on)
The point is, the system is basically designed to minimize the downside for airlines when they have a full breakdown that’s within their control, to the detriment of passengers. Imagine if the United States were more like Europe, where there’s EU261 compensation, and passengers receive up to 600 Euro cash compensation if their flight is delayed or canceled for an issue within the carrier’s control.
You can bet airlines would be a bit more careful, because melting down to this point would be much more costly.
For what it’s worth, the DOT has issued the following statement regarding the Southwest Airlines situation:
USDOT is concerned by Southwest Airlines’ disproportionate and unacceptable rate of cancellations and delays, as well as the failure to properly support customers experiencing a cancellation or delay. As more information becomes available, the department will closely examine whether cancellations were controllable and whether Southwest is complying with its customer service plan, as well as all other pertinent DOT rules.
Bottom line
Southwest Airlines’ operation is in disarray, as the airline has canceled most of its flights yesterday, today, and tomorrow. While all airlines have been dealing with bad weather, Southwest simply wasn’t prepared for any sort of serious operational issues.
That’s because the airline has horrible technology that requires manual crew scheduling in situations like this, which is a virtually impossible task. The airline lays this out clearly internally, but refuses to acknowledge it to the public. Unfortunately the company’s public communication surrounding this catastrophe add insult to injury.
Has anyone been caught up in this Southwest operational mess? What do you think the solution is to this issue?
update: all airline will have significant delays and layover for all of 2023( from ap) . so are all the airlines having tech issues or is it they dont have enough works because of there vaccine policies.wake up idiots. those who want to push covid vaccines your time is up!
Southwest blew it big time and at the worst possible time of the year! All the airlines have been getting away with not compensating customers for cancellations and delays for a very long time. American has done this exact thing to me several times, leaving me stranded in a far away city with no solutions. Even the flight insurance companies try to wiggle out of paying. They all say it was out of their control,...
Southwest blew it big time and at the worst possible time of the year! All the airlines have been getting away with not compensating customers for cancellations and delays for a very long time. American has done this exact thing to me several times, leaving me stranded in a far away city with no solutions. Even the flight insurance companies try to wiggle out of paying. They all say it was out of their control, I say BS! Where else do you pay for a service and don’t get served or compensated? Corporate greed at its best!! I am so disappointed in Southwest for being extremely short sighted and ignoring the technology upgrades they desperately needed. They really hurt a lot of people.
Anybody knows by the d*** technology
This reminds me of what Gerald Ford once said during his presidency. He said that everyone knows that Social Security is unsustainable over the long-term, but to tackle that problem would be political suicide , so each successive administration will just keep ‘kicking the can.’
SWA has known that their operational systems were outdated, inadequate, and unscalable for years, but no shareholder wants to hear how much that software upgrade is going to cost, so…kick...
This reminds me of what Gerald Ford once said during his presidency. He said that everyone knows that Social Security is unsustainable over the long-term, but to tackle that problem would be political suicide , so each successive administration will just keep ‘kicking the can.’
SWA has known that their operational systems were outdated, inadequate, and unscalable for years, but no shareholder wants to hear how much that software upgrade is going to cost, so…kick the can. But eventually, like musical chairs, the music stops and the CEO left standing becomes the goat (and I don’t mean the Tom Brady kind of GOAT).
I expect Social Security to follow the same script. One day, the music will suddenly halt and the person currently in the White House will get the heat for all the can-kicking that has occurred over the past 50+ years.
Does anyone criticizing their safety concern has an idea when the clock starts running for pilots and crew? It is a safety matter. Just because they are not in the plain does not mean they are not on the clock. Mental fatigue is a phenomenon just like the battery in your cellphone, the mo.ent you remove the cell from it's charger the battery starts to deplete and so does the brain. Therefore, the longer the...
Does anyone criticizing their safety concern has an idea when the clock starts running for pilots and crew? It is a safety matter. Just because they are not in the plain does not mean they are not on the clock. Mental fatigue is a phenomenon just like the battery in your cellphone, the mo.ent you remove the cell from it's charger the battery starts to deplete and so does the brain. Therefore, the longer the pilots and crew await at an airport, the less hours they can be in charge of an aircraft. That is what happened. Delays with ground crew operations let to aircrew not been able to be in charge of an aircraft with 100 plus souls onboard. Educate yourself with aircrew regulationns before criticizing.
Hey Bob Jordan, “Wanna get away”?
Back when on time reporting was a big deal southwest didn’t have the technology (acars) so they just reported everything as on time. Well
I believe one of the networks showed the head of the SWA Pilots Union explaining that Southwest paid $400 million to shareholders. This might have been better spent on software and hardware.
Sad to read all about this; I think that SWA does a good job getting you from A to B, their Airport and flight crews are helpful and friendly, love that if you don’t pay top fare, there’s always a chance you can...
I believe one of the networks showed the head of the SWA Pilots Union explaining that Southwest paid $400 million to shareholders. This might have been better spent on software and hardware.
Sad to read all about this; I think that SWA does a good job getting you from A to B, their Airport and flight crews are helpful and friendly, love that if you don’t pay top fare, there’s always a chance you can sit up front.
And these current difficulties seem to be a management fail, not a militant union’s.
Simple! NEVER EVER FLY SOUTHWEST!
Southwest passenger need to get a life. If they were willing to pay a fare that would recompense the airline for the service they required they would get to their destinations on time. The two legacy airlines are proof of this. There is no such thing as a “ free lunch” notwithstanding all the monies and tax benefits that Southwestern receive from Federal and State governments.
Much Whining about the meltdown. Travel is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get. I realize that on occasion things will melt down. So far its been years since I had a flight cancelled. It will happen someday. I'll go with the flow.
Good recap of SWA operational issues post-Christmas.
However, I believe you missed the elephant in the room. And that simply is that SWA is married to a point-to-point operational scheme. Had they had a hub-and-spoke system, alternative routings are far more plentiful because alternative flights around the hud are readily available. I am a Free lta Lifetime Medallion and have never - read it never - had difficuly rebooking reasonably alternative flights when my incoming...
Good recap of SWA operational issues post-Christmas.
However, I believe you missed the elephant in the room. And that simply is that SWA is married to a point-to-point operational scheme. Had they had a hub-and-spoke system, alternative routings are far more plentiful because alternative flights around the hud are readily available. I am a Free lta Lifetime Medallion and have never - read it never - had difficuly rebooking reasonably alternative flights when my incoming aircraft (and crew) does not show up.
Think about it: If Southwest had alternatives around a hub many of the otherwise displaced passengers would likely be re-accomodated sooner rather than later and would at least be headed in their intended direction.
I understand that boarding relies on support of the airlines to provide us sheepeolpe your services and you try to be "politically sensitive" but the fact is that this problem has nothing to do with technology and is totally associated with incompetence at the C suite level relating to PR department 1st, operations resource management (COO)and the incompetent CEO. You're probably too young to remember the 8O's but everything was done manually. I remember running...
I understand that boarding relies on support of the airlines to provide us sheepeolpe your services and you try to be "politically sensitive" but the fact is that this problem has nothing to do with technology and is totally associated with incompetence at the C suite level relating to PR department 1st, operations resource management (COO)and the incompetent CEO. You're probably too young to remember the 8O's but everything was done manually. I remember running around US and world with a book for domestic flights and another for out and inbound international flights that was updated every month. Herb Keller set up his airline to be point to point or segment, fly one aircraft type and it was all hands on deck during holidays and bad weather. Up until his retirement and the CFO Gary stepping out of day to day operations it was the best airline from an operations standpoint. As a CEO running a customer service operating company and previously running a national accounts Fortune 500 lending division which included an airline/aerospace team and then being a venture capitalist, either the CEO or the COO need to be fired along with all the senior PR and shareholder relationship staff. The number one job of a COO in my company is to ensure that the company culture is performance oriented and number# 2 ensure the company's resources in terms of assets, capital and Human Resources are efficiently marshaled, scheduled and managed to the mission and culture.
Canceling 60+% of your flights my god nobody is going to trust SWA Brand for years. In closing, if I was a board of Director I would be pushing to recruit a non woke PR department, replace the operations management responsible for this mess and start quietly searching for a new CEO
The head of the DOT needs to be removed from their position. There is no plan or action taken during this black swan event but I can assure you there is plenty of finger pointing .
Example. Say 250 pax are stranded at LAX and need to get to SFO. A United 787 has just landed from EWR at 9pm and not due to fly out until 8AM the next morning. How about a...
The head of the DOT needs to be removed from their position. There is no plan or action taken during this black swan event but I can assure you there is plenty of finger pointing .
Example. Say 250 pax are stranded at LAX and need to get to SFO. A United 787 has just landed from EWR at 9pm and not due to fly out until 8AM the next morning. How about a freedom flight and then ferry back to LAX ?
How about letting passengers standby on other airlines and they honor the SW tickets ?
Because they won’t be paid as there’s no interline agreement. The carrier whose flight is disrupted is responsible for re accommodating their customers and they have to reissue their tickets . In addition other airlines are operating at full capacity. That’s the advantage of alliances. BA cancels a flight and they rebook ( subject to space ) on AA. Virgin can rebook on Air France KLM or Delta, or most others they have an agreement...
Because they won’t be paid as there’s no interline agreement. The carrier whose flight is disrupted is responsible for re accommodating their customers and they have to reissue their tickets . In addition other airlines are operating at full capacity. That’s the advantage of alliances. BA cancels a flight and they rebook ( subject to space ) on AA. Virgin can rebook on Air France KLM or Delta, or most others they have an agreement with.
What you say is like holding a ticket for a show on Broadway New York and expecting a theatre in London to accept the same ticket on a different day.
You just brought a gun to a knife fight :)
Hey, why not have Emirates load up all their spare A380s and ferry Southwest passengers around the country! Brilliant!
Why would it be United's problem to bail out the folly of WN? Or AA's problem? Or any other business'? Should Ford furnish autos if GM tanked? Whoppers for all if McD doesn't maintain it's refrigerators? If the public chooses to take its chances with booking WN, at WN prices and WN terms and fallibilities, I cannot call on United to turn its own operation upside down at the last second and be responsible for fixing it.
To add, you want United to absorb all the costs here.
I quit flying SWA when Herb Kelleher retired. It's not the same company it was with him at the helm and it shows.
They are the largest domestic airline in the US. Of course the culture will change as the company matures and expands. Same thing with JetBlue and Alaska.
I'm always concerned when I hear the suggestion that "more government involvement" is the answer.
While there may be a possible place for the government to step in, I'd much rather let the marketplace sort it out. Southwest's performance these last few days has assuredly left lasting impressions on those directly affected by their meltdown, many of whom, I am sure, will not be flying Southwest very much going forward. The image of Southwest...
I'm always concerned when I hear the suggestion that "more government involvement" is the answer.
While there may be a possible place for the government to step in, I'd much rather let the marketplace sort it out. Southwest's performance these last few days has assuredly left lasting impressions on those directly affected by their meltdown, many of whom, I am sure, will not be flying Southwest very much going forward. The image of Southwest being a quirky, fun, great-value-for-money carrier has likewise been shattered, and as the truth of the situation emerges, their image will be tarnished for a very long time. They were not only ill-equipped to handle the crew scheduling challenges; they were even more unprepared to handle the needs of the customers affected by the meltdown. The lack of interline agreements, for example, made it virtually impossible for them to do anything at all to help anybody, other than to tell them to wait. And the impact on their customers and the fallout tha will ensure as a result doesn't spur their management to action, nothing - even government intervention - will truly fix the problem.
Shareholders should demand a strict accounting, and executives who mortgaged the ocmpany's abilities to handle situations when things go wrong need to be held accountable by the board for their short-sighted decisions. Southwest investors will be paying a serious price for an extended period as travelers flee to other carriers, and it will take more than apologies to win their customer base back.
I’m always concerned when I read the phrase “let the marketplace sort it out”.
From the early medieval period, markets have been among the most heavily regulated of civic spaces. Even the weights and measures used by traders had to conform to centrally-determined standards. Only someone with no knowledge of history would imagine a marketplace as an unregulated free-for-all where naked capitalism sorts out the winners and losers.
The same should (and mostly does)...
I’m always concerned when I read the phrase “let the marketplace sort it out”.
From the early medieval period, markets have been among the most heavily regulated of civic spaces. Even the weights and measures used by traders had to conform to centrally-determined standards. Only someone with no knowledge of history would imagine a marketplace as an unregulated free-for-all where naked capitalism sorts out the winners and losers.
The same should (and mostly does) apply to the contemporary world: the frame of rules is set by a public body working to balance the interests of all, and which usually seeks to protect the most vulnerable parties in a transaction (hint: that generally won’t be a multibillion dollar corporation). Everyone is then free to operate within that frame.
The US has decided in this field that the frame should be lightly regulated, and mostly with a protectionist view of locking out furriner airlines. Passengers are left to their own devices. As Ben wrote, that means airlines don’t have to bother much with stranded passengers.
In the EU the frame is different: passengers are protected by the frame; and the sheer expense to an airline of screwing-up means — how shocking is this? — that they generally try to avoid screwing-over the passengers.
Post EU261 regulation, airlines have a much better record of not having last-minute cancellations.
It’s a nice example of the importance of getting market regulation right. The solution is almost never to blindly insist there should be no regulation and, instead, those lovely benevolent corporations should be left of their own free will to act in our best interests.
Good regulation is not a “burden”; it’s an essential part of making the world work well in everyone’s interests.
Again, I'll add: You get what you pay for.
My prediction is that SWA is going to be the target of a takeover--with the blessing of the DOT. It's the quickest way to fix the outdated scheduling system and get rid of the horrible C-Suite executive team.
Southwest is the only airline with an investment grade credit rating. While this event is a major failure, they have been successful in a very competitive landscape. The DOJ and DOT will never let AA, UL, DL buy out WN for competitive reasons. If anything WN has access to credit to buy out a legacy carrier.
The answer is simple! Invest in the required technology now and raise your fairs temporarily to help pay for the upgraded systems.
I was going to fly Southwest the 25th from South Texas to KY and, seeing how the weather was and anticipating cancellations and delays, I cancelled the plans. The worst that can happen is to get stranded in a packed airport with freezing weather. There are people that embark on their trip "wishing for the best" and, nowadays, that's not smart.
Btw, Buttigieg, as usual, is nowhere to be found. Don't expect any solution from...
I was going to fly Southwest the 25th from South Texas to KY and, seeing how the weather was and anticipating cancellations and delays, I cancelled the plans. The worst that can happen is to get stranded in a packed airport with freezing weather. There are people that embark on their trip "wishing for the best" and, nowadays, that's not smart.
Btw, Buttigieg, as usual, is nowhere to be found. Don't expect any solution from that side following his unproductive pattern to date.
I honestly cant blame any airline exec for their actions the past few years there is no repercussions with Buttigieg in charge, this is what happens when you put incompetent people in charge. Buttigieg is a small town mayor and a celebrity he has no transportation experience, must have been music to the ears of airline execs when he was named to the job.
I remember how immediately post-election there was a new article practically every other day about a new cabinet position Buttigieg was angling for. Given how thirsty he was for an appointment I was shocked they gave him such an important role
This is 100% on Southwest Airlines managent. They had two previous major cancelations over many days in 2021. There were other major system meltdowns prior to the pandemic. Each time they blamed the weather, because they don't have to reimburse passengers since it's not their fault.
Southwest is still my favorite airline, but unlike UA, AA, & DL, they don't use operations research (software/algorithms) in doing their crew scheduling (or other operations), and in times like these (disaster recovery), that makes all the difference.
If you don't like them, don't fly them.
Textbook example of failing to stay competitive and placing earnings per share above all else. Good article. "Meltdown" seems to be a very accurate term.
You realize all airlines over the past two years have been fighting for survival. WN alone took on $8B of debt to just keep operations working. The last few years they also invested large amounts of money in the app, wifi on planes, simulators, its training center, website and new aircraft. Should they have had more resilient systems, yes, but its far cry from claiming its all because of the focus on earnings.
https://www.theonion.com/southwest-airlines-now-taking-passengers-to-destination-1819569752
From 2008.
All airline schedules presume optimal flying weather and crew/ground availability. Hub n spoke carriers (DL/UA/AA) have the ability to concentrate their assets in their hubs and get things sorted. While WN has some focus cities (LAS, PHX, MDW, HOU, DAL, etc.) their point-to-point system leaves their assets more distributed, and more difficult to reconstitute. Year ago, the EU passed legislation requiring airlines to compensate passengers for weather delays, mechanicals, and others. The US fretted that...
All airline schedules presume optimal flying weather and crew/ground availability. Hub n spoke carriers (DL/UA/AA) have the ability to concentrate their assets in their hubs and get things sorted. While WN has some focus cities (LAS, PHX, MDW, HOU, DAL, etc.) their point-to-point system leaves their assets more distributed, and more difficult to reconstitute. Year ago, the EU passed legislation requiring airlines to compensate passengers for weather delays, mechanicals, and others. The US fretted that this would encourage airlines to compromise safety. This was not the effect in the EU. Airlines published more realistic schedules. Southwest's typical 30-minute turn times throughout the aircraft utilization day means any incurred delay usually can't be made up. And when an aircraft is flying MDW-DEN-BOI-LAX-HOU-MSY-RDU in a day, there WILL be one or more weather, ATC, maintenance, or ops issues along the way. The airlines, particularly Southwest, have it in their hands (for now) to get their houses in order, or risk a return to inefficient and expensive government regulation.
Would they have done better to on the afternoon of the 25th have cancelled every single flight on the 26th, and used the day purely to get aircraft/crew back in position to restart properly on the 27th?
They don't have long-haul destinations, so no aircraft needed to fly more than 5 hours?
The schedulers on the 26th would have not been distracted from the important job of fixing for the future by the...
Would they have done better to on the afternoon of the 25th have cancelled every single flight on the 26th, and used the day purely to get aircraft/crew back in position to restart properly on the 27th?
They don't have long-haul destinations, so no aircraft needed to fly more than 5 hours?
The schedulers on the 26th would have not been distracted from the important job of fixing for the future by the urgent one of trying to arrange some flights that day.
Even for passengers booked on the 26th it might have been less stressful to have certainty.
Interested to hear from anyone with real experience of scheduling whether that would have been sensible or unrealistic.
Utilities are natural monopolies/oligopolies and so need to be regulated.
By outcomes rather than methods.
As soon as something unusual, but hardly inconceivable, happens, the airlines fall over.
That's rather like a bank saying that they would have made a profit if they had not suffered from some borrowers not repaying.
It happens.
Banks are therefore required to hold capital, and have to prove to regulators how they will remain solvent...
Utilities are natural monopolies/oligopolies and so need to be regulated.
By outcomes rather than methods.
As soon as something unusual, but hardly inconceivable, happens, the airlines fall over.
That's rather like a bank saying that they would have made a profit if they had not suffered from some borrowers not repaying.
It happens.
Banks are therefore required to hold capital, and have to prove to regulators how they will remain solvent in the face of conceivable bad news.
Airlines (and power companies etc) need the same discipline.
Prices might go up a little (although they would also suffer fewer disasters that do involve costs to them) but the country would be a happier place.
Please, please be as nice as possible to the southwest public facing staff who has shown up to work in the face of an absolute crisis.
I have been affected by the Southwest mess!!!!
I made my Southwest Flight from Reno to LAX on the 23rd ok. We played musical gates in Reno, the flight from Vegas was shooed off the airplane quickly, we boarded half hour late and took off an hour...
Please, please be as nice as possible to the southwest public facing staff who has shown up to work in the face of an absolute crisis.
I have been affected by the Southwest mess!!!!
I made my Southwest Flight from Reno to LAX on the 23rd ok. We played musical gates in Reno, the flight from Vegas was shooed off the airplane quickly, we boarded half hour late and took off an hour later than we were supposed to.
Maybe that should have been my Cosmic Warning?
I got a text yesterday that my flight home from LAX to Reno is cancelled.
Amtrak is full, flights cost from $600.00 to $1,000.00.
Can I bill Southwest for about 5 hours of scouring the internet, pouring over maps of the Western United States for highways, railways and alternative airports to land at? My God!!!!
Now my 80 year old dad and I are going to scramble around for a rental car (we hope) to get me home rather than hanging out together like we're supposed to be doing!!!!
My employer will lose a day of work bc I won't be back in time!!! EH!!!!
What a mess!!!
Unions control everything
No one wants to work anymore
Customers / Taxpayers will always lose out
You're a clown.
Have you been to an airport and seen FAs, pilots, ramp agents, baggage handlers, security, food service workers, cleaners, porters and others around? Planes don't fly themselves. But yeah, no one wants to work.
Isn't this just another holiday incident? Seems like the US airlines industry never learn from the earlier year. What a sham.
Exactly why I refuse to fly at the major holidays. I just don't care to subject myself to this misery. Airlines are not victims of the weather, they are victims of their maxed-out scheduling to have as many available seat miles as possible during high-demand seasonal travel, with NO regards for having any excess capacity available to recover from weather disruptions. They have their government get-out-of-jail free card which they'll flash at the drop of...
Exactly why I refuse to fly at the major holidays. I just don't care to subject myself to this misery. Airlines are not victims of the weather, they are victims of their maxed-out scheduling to have as many available seat miles as possible during high-demand seasonal travel, with NO regards for having any excess capacity available to recover from weather disruptions. They have their government get-out-of-jail free card which they'll flash at the drop of a hat: "We owe you nothing - it was the weather." I will NOT fly when load factors are all 95%+. One cancellation, and the rebooked passengers take out a significant amount of available seat inventory, let alone when their are hundreds or thousands of cancellations. If friends insist on traveling, I suggest traveling outbound at least five days before the holiday, and not returning until three days after the holiday. Not everyone has the luxury of committing this amount of time to travel, but to avoid holding for hours or waiting in line for hours to be told I can't be rebooked for 3-5 days, it's totally worth it, IMHO. (Sorry for the extended rant. But, for having bailed the airlines out YET AGAIN during COVID with BILLIONS of forgiven loans - we deserve better.)
UL, DL, AA, B6, Frontier, Spirit Alaska,... all managed to run full schedules. You seem to be generalizing Southwest to all airlines. Airlines serve customers. If customers want to fly during the holiday break, they are going to fly them, it's their business.
If your schedule is flexible and you can travel outside the holidays, that is great. Many of us that have kids in school or want to see family, don't have your luxury of time.
Again, I am pointing out that holiday scheduling messes and flight cancellations in the US have simply become part of the holiday cheer! Airlines simply don't give a damn or learn from them year on year. Such news is the expected from the US every winter, regardless of whether or not there is inclement weather. What a sad state of affairs. Passengers cannot be blamed. These are solely the airlines' mismanagement and the governments' lack of any oversight.
The article talks about compensating people who were canceled starting 12/24. My daughter (and what looked like most of SNA) had her flight canceled on 12/23. They gave up and went home rather than be stranded somewhere else or pay $1000 a ticket. So because she planned to fly earlier she won’t receive any compensation for botched holiday plans?
Well nobody is getting anything, so I'm not sure why you're complaining about the details of a nonexistent reimbursement rule.
The airline in the WSJ stated it will reimburse people for alternative air travel arrangements and extended hotel stays. Due to this PR mess and their financial ability to absorb this cost, I would expect Southwest to be spending cash on customers affected. We will see who is right.
Our family will never fly Southwest again. Will be a cold day in hell!!!! Am so sick of these airlines getting bailed out with are tax dollars and then they leave passengers stranded all over. There is ZERO excuse for this!! I hope you go BANKRUPT after this!!!
I was booked for a flight from OAK to SAN on the 27th and my flight kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed. Then all of a sudden I receive a text saying that I have been “rebooked” to fly 1/1/2023! 5 days later! Are you kidding? I have to get back to work, didn’t bring enough medication to last and am just plain exhausted with worry! I immediately called to the SWA customer service and of...
I was booked for a flight from OAK to SAN on the 27th and my flight kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed. Then all of a sudden I receive a text saying that I have been “rebooked” to fly 1/1/2023! 5 days later! Are you kidding? I have to get back to work, didn’t bring enough medication to last and am just plain exhausted with worry! I immediately called to the SWA customer service and of course, placed on terminal hold. I went ahead and, luckily, found a one way flight from SFO to SAN on the 28th on Alaska Air. I guess I snagged the last coach seat at $300 bucks because when I looked again, 5 min later, the only thing left was one $600 first class seat! OMG! What a nightmare this flight home has been. By the way, the last seat I snagged was a flight at 6am to SAN. Not that I’m complaining because at least I have understanding family to stay with but what a cluster! I’m planning on asking for the TOTAL amount of reimbursement AND a voucher for RUINING my holiday and loss of wages for the three days that SWA assumed I’d just agree to for “booking” me so far from my scheduled flight today!!!
I think Southwest is about to get inundated with thousands of lawsuits, which will then be rolled into a ginormous class action lawsuit, and when it's settled, litigants will each get 27 cents and a 50% discount on a future Southwest Airlines flight, which expires one year from issue and includes teeny tiny print saying, "This voucher fulfills Southwest Airlines' responsibility and is full compensation in the matter of (legal case number here)."
I was booked for a flight from OAK to SAN on the 27th and my flight kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed. Then all of a sudden I receive a text saying that I have been “rebooked” to fly 1/1/2023! 5 days later! Are you kidding? I have to get back to work, didn’t bring enough medication to last and am just plain exhausted with worry! I immediately called to the SWA customer service and of...
I was booked for a flight from OAK to SAN on the 27th and my flight kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed. Then all of a sudden I receive a text saying that I have been “rebooked” to fly 1/1/2023! 5 days later! Are you kidding? I have to get back to work, didn’t bring enough medication to last and am just plain exhausted with worry! I immediately called to the SWA customer service and of course, placed on terminal hold. I went ahead and, luckily, found a one way flight from SFO to SAN on the 28th on Alaska Air. I guess I snagged the last coach seat at $300 bucks because when I looked again, 5 min later, the only thing left was one $600 first class seat! OMG! What a nightmare this flight home has been. By the way, the last seat I snagged was a flight at 6am to SAN. Not that I’m complaining because at least I have understanding family to stay with but what a cluster! I’m planning on asking for the TOTAL amount of reimbursement AND a voucher for RUINING my holiday and loss of wages for the three days that SWA assumed I’d just agree to for “booking” me 5 days AFTER my scheduled flight today!!!
Is Berkshire Hathaway still invested in Southwest?
No. They dumped all airline stocks at the start of the pandemic.
Probably. Based on this debacle, it’s pretty clear Southwest cares more about shareholders than passengers or employees.
Another update to an already long post. Ben, I can’t tell —what’s the *new* news?
Video message from their CEO.
Southwest is equivalent to taking "the bus."
I've heard someone refer to it as something closer to a cattle car.
I decided to stop buying SW flights after the insanity back in Oct 2021. And now it's almost exactly the same thing. Govt regulation will not work. I really believe that airlines want to fix this but put solutions in place that is the exact opposite. They need people who have a deep understanding of flight operations in particular when there are cancelation issues. None of them have people with these skills or have CEOs...
I decided to stop buying SW flights after the insanity back in Oct 2021. And now it's almost exactly the same thing. Govt regulation will not work. I really believe that airlines want to fix this but put solutions in place that is the exact opposite. They need people who have a deep understanding of flight operations in particular when there are cancelation issues. None of them have people with these skills or have CEOs who think "ok we will spend more on outsourcing with devs who have never even seen the inside of a plane before". The govt could hire a big tech firm with strong operational consulting skills and force airlines to pay for them. But the govt is every bit lacking in software skills. So not an easy fix.
Flight was cancelled in the 26th and SW rebooked me automatically two days later and with a stop for a two hour flight, so about 10 hrs. I changed to a red eye direct instead, and yep that got canceled as well. Tried to cancel that flight and it’s return on my app, now SW is not letting customers cancel!? Says I have to call to cancel it, which is an impossible notion of SW...
Flight was cancelled in the 26th and SW rebooked me automatically two days later and with a stop for a two hour flight, so about 10 hrs. I changed to a red eye direct instead, and yep that got canceled as well. Tried to cancel that flight and it’s return on my app, now SW is not letting customers cancel!? Says I have to call to cancel it, which is an impossible notion of SW actually trying to fix things by hiring more customer service reps to at least help its customers. I have a SW Credit card and I’m going to cancel it bc I’m so furious how cheap the company heads were and how they blame it on weather. The same flight on United for economy was $1000 for a two hour flight. So the other airlines are price gouging too!
Nothing changes unless SWA is hurt in their pocketbook. We should start and all join a class-action to hold them accountable. Reimbursement of our plane ticket is not enough. We're having to pay major $ to get a new flight days away. Of course this does not compensate for the inconvenience. I for one am a cancer pt that lives bc I am infused every three weeks to stay alive. My treatment day was yesterday...
Nothing changes unless SWA is hurt in their pocketbook. We should start and all join a class-action to hold them accountable. Reimbursement of our plane ticket is not enough. We're having to pay major $ to get a new flight days away. Of course this does not compensate for the inconvenience. I for one am a cancer pt that lives bc I am infused every three weeks to stay alive. My treatment day was yesterday and I'm still working on getting home as we speak. I purchased my tkt 1 1/2 months ago to no avail. Shame on you SWA.
In respect to the self-inflicted wound at Southwest, look to the Board itself to determine why such critical systems were not properly updated. Either it was a play to Wall Street by massaging the numbers to look good by avoiding such major expenses, or, like Amtrak’s Board, they lack the requisite experience to be competent stewards to demand accountability.
Speaking of Amtrak, the impact of an inexperienced Board compounded by a corporate management lacking the...
In respect to the self-inflicted wound at Southwest, look to the Board itself to determine why such critical systems were not properly updated. Either it was a play to Wall Street by massaging the numbers to look good by avoiding such major expenses, or, like Amtrak’s Board, they lack the requisite experience to be competent stewards to demand accountability.
Speaking of Amtrak, the impact of an inexperienced Board compounded by a corporate management lacking the requisite railroad experience explains its massive failure during this holiday season. Despite requesting and taking multi-millions from the feds to retain its seasoned staff, instead the decision was made to buy-out or lay-off so many critical operating staff that Amtrak has yet to be at full strength. The inexperience of corporate management, apparently unaccountable to a ghost Board, also failed to retain its seasoned maintenance staff to ensure equipment would be serviced and ready to roll; thus, forcing to this day annulments and shortened consists. Yet, the same corporate management, including counsel, were rewarded with excessive bonuses.
Without a doubt, Southwest, like Amtrak, will find such bad decisions will cost far more than making the correct decision.
All the Board cares about is keeping costs low and maximizing shareholder value. To that extent, this was exactly what was going to happen. The problem is that to the extent WN faces any consequences for this, the costs will largely be borne by the consumers and employees, not by the shareholders who’s cost cutting demands and greed got WN into this mess in the first place.
Your reference to EU261 should be with an asterisk. My experiences relying on EU261 were very disappointing:
-June, 2019: Iberia changed aircraft type MAD-ORD, putting me in Coach. Despite filing all documents, IB chose to just ignore--until the Ambassador of Spain intervened in my behalf.
-April, 2020: IB ignored my request for refund at beginning of pandemic until I claimed fraud thru credit card.
Another lesson learned--never purchase tickets via a discount...
Your reference to EU261 should be with an asterisk. My experiences relying on EU261 were very disappointing:
-June, 2019: Iberia changed aircraft type MAD-ORD, putting me in Coach. Despite filing all documents, IB chose to just ignore--until the Ambassador of Spain intervened in my behalf.
-April, 2020: IB ignored my request for refund at beginning of pandemic until I claimed fraud thru credit card.
Another lesson learned--never purchase tickets via a discount outfit, as the airlines could care less about a refund due; each side points to the other.
Similar example of mine: August 2013, Finnair Helsinki-Osaka flight delayed by 5 hour "because a typhoon is hitting Japan". That day, around the same schedule at least 3 other flights from Europe to Osaka departed and landed on time: from CDG (Air France), AMS (KLM), and FRA (Lufthansa). I think the Alitalia flight (Rome or Milan I can't remember) did OK as well.
I filled twice for EU261, explaining that 3 other flights were...
Similar example of mine: August 2013, Finnair Helsinki-Osaka flight delayed by 5 hour "because a typhoon is hitting Japan". That day, around the same schedule at least 3 other flights from Europe to Osaka departed and landed on time: from CDG (Air France), AMS (KLM), and FRA (Lufthansa). I think the Alitalia flight (Rome or Milan I can't remember) did OK as well.
I filled twice for EU261, explaining that 3 other flights were not impacted by the typhoon on that day/route. Denied both time without explanation.
At midnight on Christmas Eve, Southwest canceled my daughter and her fiancé’s Christmas morning flight, without explanation or offer for compensation. After waiting on hold for three hours without anyone answering, they went to the airport and were told there was nothing to be done. So they started driving from San Jose to Idaho. Meanwhile, we drove to the Boise airport and waited in line for an hour because, after holding for 4 hours with...
At midnight on Christmas Eve, Southwest canceled my daughter and her fiancé’s Christmas morning flight, without explanation or offer for compensation. After waiting on hold for three hours without anyone answering, they went to the airport and were told there was nothing to be done. So they started driving from San Jose to Idaho. Meanwhile, we drove to the Boise airport and waited in line for an hour because, after holding for 4 hours with Southwest without anyone answering, we couldn’t get anyone to tell us how or even if we will be refunded the $800 we paid when we booked this trip back in October! Absolutely unacceptable. If the feds got involved relative to Covid regulations, what is their excuse for failing to stand up for consumer rights in this case? This ruined thousands, if not millions, of people’s Christmas. We won’t fly SW again.
We were held hostage to this crisis in PHX X-mas. Fortunately, this was our origin so we could drive home, but our bags are still in the ether somewhere. Already SWA is playing “games” with the promise of refunds. If you use the direct link to cancelling, they only offer flight credits. You have to dig deeper into a “Learn More” link on the home page to find the form for a full refund. Of course, who knows when we will see our money and/or bags.
Wife was supposed to fly home from Providence RI to Baltimore-Washington Airport yesterday. Her relatives drove her from Barrington to the Providence airport. She checked through security and got to the gate area for the flight. While she was waiting the Southwest Representatives at that point then notified everybody that the flight to BWI was canceled. No prior notice. In fact, they canceled all flights to BWI yesterday without informing most people ahead of time....
Wife was supposed to fly home from Providence RI to Baltimore-Washington Airport yesterday. Her relatives drove her from Barrington to the Providence airport. She checked through security and got to the gate area for the flight. While she was waiting the Southwest Representatives at that point then notified everybody that the flight to BWI was canceled. No prior notice. In fact, they canceled all flights to BWI yesterday without informing most people ahead of time. Because we had relatives coming in from Paris the same afternoon she needed to get back to our house. She rented one of the last cars available at the Providence Airport and drove in extremely heavy traffic and arrived at 8:00 p.m. last night after 7 and 1/2 hours of exhausting driving. Today, we have friends who were supposed to be flying in from Tampa to BWI. Their flight was supposed to leave at 11:25. It was then rescheduled to 12:30, then 1:45 and as I just checked now 3:45 p.m. my fear is that their departure flight on January 2nd will not be completed due to house screwed up Southwest has now become. I used to love Southwest, favorite A
airline, as it was a great non-stop point to point airline with funny flight attendants. I'm quickly beginning to think that Southwest will be the last airline that I book with in the future. I do believe the government should become involved as airline services are a critical infrastructure industry in the US. Most other countries seem to have this situation well in hand. Anyone who's flown on Asian airlines or European airlines while there are occasional hiccups have to be impressed with the much better service including food and beverage service as opposed to the cheap US airlines. A pathetic story these days.
If only there were trains between Providence and Baltimore...
@Scudder - Beyond rude and unhelpful comment. Stop throwing snarky negative comments around this world - We have enough of it. Literally just stop.
Absolute brilliant reply!
Pay for cancelled passengers to rebook at another airline. Get these people home!
Its a holiday week. Airlines are already running at full capacity before you add in any displaced Southwest paxs.
The SWA web site has a link where they say they will reimburse for “reasonable” related expenses such as other airline receipts. But, as Brian says, good luck finding an empty seat elsewhere from a highly compromised airport.
For all the people roasting Southwest right now, let's see their load factor during President's weekend compared to other airlines. If customers stayed away, Southwest would change quickly. My bet is when Southwest runs a discounted fare sale, they will fill those seats. Americans value a dollar saved over other factors such as comfort and reliability. Part of the reason Frontier and Spirit keep taking market share.
Exactly. People want Neiman Marcus service at Walmart prices.
I worked for an airline for twenty years. Believe me, once someone sees a ticket price lower on an airline that screwed them over at Xmas....all is forgiven. Besides, due to airline consolidation, most people have very little choice.
Putting this WN meltdown in perspective with rescheduling now reaching out nearly a week, I can’t recall any similar situation in my nearly four decades of business travel that even comes close. After 9/11/2001 I waited six days in AMS after my DL flight turned back when all US Airports were closed and flights grounded for two days but that event impacted all airlines. This is unbelievable, a systemwide breakdown with no ability to self...
Putting this WN meltdown in perspective with rescheduling now reaching out nearly a week, I can’t recall any similar situation in my nearly four decades of business travel that even comes close. After 9/11/2001 I waited six days in AMS after my DL flight turned back when all US Airports were closed and flights grounded for two days but that event impacted all airlines. This is unbelievable, a systemwide breakdown with no ability to self heal. It’s lack of real hubs may be at the root of its inability to get back together but maybe I’m way off base with that theory. The postmortem on this should be interesting.
Donna, I'm not holding my breath for any actual introspection on their part. 'It's all because of the terrible weather. Next!'
It’s time for their CEO and other top management to find another job. They can’t seem to recover or learn from any other time this has happened this year. They just keep saying the same things. The disruption this has caused money people have spent due to their inability to recover should be on the airline to compensate people. As until it impacts their bottom line in the hardest hit of ways they will not...
It’s time for their CEO and other top management to find another job. They can’t seem to recover or learn from any other time this has happened this year. They just keep saying the same things. The disruption this has caused money people have spent due to their inability to recover should be on the airline to compensate people. As until it impacts their bottom line in the hardest hit of ways they will not change their insanity of just apologizing when all other airlines have recovered.
Why would you even book a southwest flight?
1. They serve airports the big 3 dont with non stop service
2. They dont nickel and dime you for extra fees
3. Had no change fees long before other airlines
4. Got rid of expiration dates for flight credits
5. The employees like working for the airline and make it a pleasant experience
“…the employees like working for the airline??”
Does that include the ramp folks in DEN?
How’s the view from the DAL HQ today, Brian?
Why do people pay someone dressed in a whole lot of black leather to whip them? Same thing.
Same reason Americans buy Chinese knockoffs on Amazon way more than made in USA products. Its cheap and Americans are too lazy to do 10 minutes of research. The fastest solution within 3 cell phone clicks is the preferred choice.
Yup
Bc Delta and Priceline wouldn't refund my money for a flight cancellation!!!!! Crap!!!!
I was on one of the few SWA flights that got out of Orlando yesterday, where at least 90% were cancelled. It was complete chaos. We were one crew member short but after 3 hours someone finally showed up and we were thankfully (and miraculously) able to get home to Kansas City. We had a hotel room booked for the night if necessary, but it was looking grim beyond that. The odds of rebooking in...
I was on one of the few SWA flights that got out of Orlando yesterday, where at least 90% were cancelled. It was complete chaos. We were one crew member short but after 3 hours someone finally showed up and we were thankfully (and miraculously) able to get home to Kansas City. We had a hotel room booked for the night if necessary, but it was looking grim beyond that. The odds of rebooking in the next few days have to be close to 0%, and we'd have been stuck with a 1200 mile drive home in a rental car assuming one was available.
All I can say is be nice to the SWA staff on the ground. It's certainly not their fault, and the only reason our plane ever took off is because a couple of workers at the gate made a herculean effort to track down not only a legal crew member but someone back in Dallas who could actually clear him to fly. This is 1000% the fault of SWA senior management and they need to be held responsible for this, starting at the top. As someone else pointed out, airlines like SWA are the biggest welfare queens around and time and time again they repurchase shares and pay dividends and suck out every available cent of cash for distribution to shareholders and then come back with their hand out after another meltdown. There is zero excuse for one of the largest carriers in the US to be running on 1990s technology and that's entirely on the numbskulls at corporate (and the BoD), not the lady at the gate working a 10-hour shift.
Will any lessons be learned? Don't count on it.
Except the numbskulls at corporate are doing exactly what the shareholders want. The shareholders don’t care if these incidents keep happening, so long as they are squeezing every cent of value they can get their hands on out of WN while they are shareholders. Once again, even if WN faces consequences for this debacle, it will be passengers and employees left holding the bag, while the shareholders keep getting dividends and stock buybacks.
Wow; this morning they canceled my wife's flight STL-JAX for 12/29. More than 48 hours out. Crazy.
SW admitted they failed to buy new technology to stay current. Sounds like they’re only concerned about the stockholders, continue to abuse you bread and butter profit makers (passengers) and they will go else where and you will go bankrupt. Except the CEO who will get million dollar buyouts
Southwest has invested billions in tech (the app, wifi on planes, new reservation system, simulators for pilots...). Should they have done more, obviously yes. To make it sound like they havent put money back into the airline is false.
it is very well known that SW really haven't "invested" in themselves. All the things that you mentioned are not investing in the company but rather so that they could try to stay competitive with other airlines. One of their main problem and many people in the industry have pointed it out that SW did not care to invest in their antiquated IT system. The weather problem initially caused problems. But their IT system exacerbated...
it is very well known that SW really haven't "invested" in themselves. All the things that you mentioned are not investing in the company but rather so that they could try to stay competitive with other airlines. One of their main problem and many people in the industry have pointed it out that SW did not care to invest in their antiquated IT system. The weather problem initially caused problems. But their IT system exacerbated it. They basically have lost track of their crew members and everyone pretty much they have to call scheduling to let them know where they are. With so many crew trying to call that is why no one can get through. Since the crew scheduling has been unable to keep track of where they are, all those crew can't get a hotel room to start their rest period which is mandated by the FAA. As a result, because everyone is out of place, the crew can't be matched to their flights to legally fly.
How many BILLIONS of taxpayers $$ money did they accept in a ‘Grant’ after COVID-19? Pay it all back now. The American people deserve better.
I just read WN xxld all flights from LAX until 31 December. Now if it’s a weather issue it’s understandable however that’s normally on a day by day basis
On Xmas day it was 26c and sunny in LA and no weather issues in Phoenix, other parts of California or Las Vegas.
If the US had an equivalent of EC261 it would cost them a fortune.
This is why discretion over what constitutes a “weather” delay should not be left to the airlines. Sure, plenty of flights had to be cancelled due to weather this weekend and there were probably subsequent flights cancelled at outstations because inbound planes never arrived (even if the weather issue had resolved by then).
This situation is no longer due to “weather”. What happened to its WN was entirely predictable given their refusal to invest...
This is why discretion over what constitutes a “weather” delay should not be left to the airlines. Sure, plenty of flights had to be cancelled due to weather this weekend and there were probably subsequent flights cancelled at outstations because inbound planes never arrived (even if the weather issue had resolved by then).
This situation is no longer due to “weather”. What happened to its WN was entirely predictable given their refusal to invest in updated technology and their insistence on stretching their schedule to the boundaries of its capacity without any weather problems. Unfortunately shareholders demanded that money that should have been going to shore up WN’s operational resilience was funneled to them in the form of dividends and share buybacks. They only care about getting as much money out of a company as they can, regardless of whether they drive it into bankruptcy.
Yes. I have been saying for years, that in Europe, whether a given flight cancellation/delay is airline's fault should be decided by regulators and published.
It would save a lot of time for passengers, and for airlines.
It would also do something to push back on the spinning and lying (in many fields) which I have seen become more and more common over my career.
They have also been canceling inter-island flights in Hawaii. Absolutely nothing to do with weather, completely to do with their meltdown that can't get planes and crew to the proper locations to fly.
I'm not flying right now but a have flights scheduled for 2023, I'm beginning to think about change those flights and any future flights to a different airline.
don’t let them lie to you! the reason southwest is screwed up because of staffing shortage due to the company force vaccination or get fired policy. thats the reason for staffing shortage. not enough ground crews, maintenance or pilots to refill those positions because of there vaccine policy for hiring. dont belive me, try getting a job at southwest and you’ll see!
Yeah, that's the reason -rolls eyes- nice try, thanks for playing you receive no parting gift.
I think we need to give him some kind of parting gift, perhaps an MRI.
prove its not true. i showed i can prove it. just saying things dosen’t make it true. you need prove it not ridicule your enemys you hack
Guy, every airline has a vaccination policy in accordance with state laws. You also didn’t provide any evidence of your claim. Take a look at the memo LALF shared on why SW blames internal failures
go to website and look to see under employment. condition of employment. yes your right all airlines have same policy and all of them are short staff. dont worry more airlines will be just like southwest. enjoy flying.
Free Market ® should take care of this.
The head of the flight attendant union was literally on NPR this evening saying it has nothing to do with staffing and that they hired 4000 crew members this year alone, that it was completely due to operational IT meltdown. Sounds like lots of folks got jobs at Southwest this year.
thats your problem you listen to npr. dont comment on anything until you learn how to think for yourself.
@lucky I had a family member affect by cancellations and I quickly rebooked them for Dec-31st online before seats ran out. Now, what recourse do I have in claiming compensation for inconveniences, having to change other plans, extra expenses, etc. and what's the best way to contact SW about it? (standing in line 3+hrs at airport to talk to agent is not an option)
If you purchased a tkt at a higher rate they should refund their own ticket plus the fare difference so you’re not out of pocket. In addition to accommodation and meals. This is something they can’t do at the airport so there must be a portal online. I imagine it will take time given the volume of people affected.
Or why not forward the claim to their CEO as it would most likely be quicker.
For an airline as successful and profitable as Southwest, to blame their meltdown on an antiquated computer system is just laughable. It’s mis-management plain and simple. And their “antiquated” computer systems are just a symbol of failed leadership. I feel so sorry for the passengers left stranded by WN, some of them may only travel at this time of year and may not have the resources or the "road-warrior" knowledge to get themselves home...
For an airline as successful and profitable as Southwest, to blame their meltdown on an antiquated computer system is just laughable. It’s mis-management plain and simple. And their “antiquated” computer systems are just a symbol of failed leadership. I feel so sorry for the passengers left stranded by WN, some of them may only travel at this time of year and may not have the resources or the "road-warrior" knowledge to get themselves home on their own. Their true colors are sure showing through now. Such a terrible organization. ♂️ #NoLuvForWN #TheGrinchOwnsWN
Well it is definitely not their computer system. They use Amadeus.
I feel sorry for the front line staff who have to deal with this mess.
Do they use Amadeus for the crew-scheduling?
Or did they only pay for the front-end part?
I do too!!! And the SWA employees who did show up to work in this cluster duck!!!
I am one of those displaced passengers who has no $$$!!! I do have road warrior skills and will make it home, dernit!!!
We were one of the many. Here is our story.
!2/25 Christmas. Scheduled on SWA2157 LAS-BNA leaving at 3:35 pm. The internal memo is exactly our experience. The plane as at LAS, but SWA was short one FA. After a 2 hour delay, an actual FA was at the gate. BUT, no one could get her "added to the flight crew list". [There was not even one announcement to affected passengers]. SWA never could figure...
We were one of the many. Here is our story.
!2/25 Christmas. Scheduled on SWA2157 LAS-BNA leaving at 3:35 pm. The internal memo is exactly our experience. The plane as at LAS, but SWA was short one FA. After a 2 hour delay, an actual FA was at the gate. BUT, no one could get her "added to the flight crew list". [There was not even one announcement to affected passengers]. SWA never could figure out how to get a physically present FA added to the crew, so they cancelled the flight around 930 pm.
We are veteran travellers, at 6 pm we booked a back up flight on AA (connecting through CLT). So we got out on a red eye that same night. I feel for the family with the child with cerebral palsy who were stuck, and everyone else with small kids.
This is an excellent article, full of (unfortunately necessary) great advice
Oh almost forgot the best part.
Within an hour of cancelling SWA2157, the plane actually left and flew to BNA. Presumably empty. Probably because they were technically short one FA. And besides the 1 FA they "couldnt get added to the flight list", there were other crew deadheading on the plane.
How do I know this? flightaware.com
Why did the plane fly empty? I guess to "reposition it where it needed to be".
You...
Oh almost forgot the best part.
Within an hour of cancelling SWA2157, the plane actually left and flew to BNA. Presumably empty. Probably because they were technically short one FA. And besides the 1 FA they "couldnt get added to the flight list", there were other crew deadheading on the plane.
How do I know this? flightaware.com
Why did the plane fly empty? I guess to "reposition it where it needed to be".
You cant make this stuff up.
And out original itinerary is gone from the SWA system. No way I could rebook it even if I wanted to.
I don't have the answer, but it was not Regan that deregulated the airlines. Rather Carter.
Get your seething rage directed at the right political party.
You’re kind of half right there Trouty. It was Reagan that got rid of the Civil Aeronautics Board, CAB, which, by the way, Southwest was really pushing for. It is also, both then and now, mainly republicans that want to do away with the Department of Transportation and let the airlines control themselves, letting market forces determine an airline’s fate. Some on the right even want to abolish the FAA and let companies like Boeing...
You’re kind of half right there Trouty. It was Reagan that got rid of the Civil Aeronautics Board, CAB, which, by the way, Southwest was really pushing for. It is also, both then and now, mainly republicans that want to do away with the Department of Transportation and let the airlines control themselves, letting market forces determine an airline’s fate. Some on the right even want to abolish the FAA and let companies like Boeing operate without the burden of federal oversight or regulation. Carter got the ball rolling and then republicans threw the ball over a cliff.
As I said would be the case throughout the weekend as Southwest's operations deteriorated even as other airlines recovered, LUV stock is falling at a far faster rate than other airlines - which are likely picking up extra revenue for the remainder of the holiday period as airline passengers book alternate flights.
This will cost Southwest a half billion dollars plus when the lost revenue, higher labor costs, and passenger compensation is factored in.
As I said would be the case throughout the weekend as Southwest's operations deteriorated even as other airlines recovered, LUV stock is falling at a far faster rate than other airlines - which are likely picking up extra revenue for the remainder of the holiday period as airline passengers book alternate flights.
This will cost Southwest a half billion dollars plus when the lost revenue, higher labor costs, and passenger compensation is factored in.
Southwest will run a massive sale in January but so many passengers will be booking with vouchers that their revenue will be reduced throughout 2023 - for those willing to give WN another try. Many passengers will simply move on to other airlines.
C’mon Tim. Within a few days the Biden Administration and the DOT will be getting the blame for all of this and Southwest will be portrayed as a poor innocent victim being penalized by the DOT because they are based in Texas. Heck, the Texas AG will probably take the DOT to court seeking some kind of justice while casting all the blame on Biden and Ted Cruz will blame the policies of the green...
C’mon Tim. Within a few days the Biden Administration and the DOT will be getting the blame for all of this and Southwest will be portrayed as a poor innocent victim being penalized by the DOT because they are based in Texas. Heck, the Texas AG will probably take the DOT to court seeking some kind of justice while casting all the blame on Biden and Ted Cruz will blame the policies of the green new deal for cooling the earth too quickly and causing all the snow. And before summer Southwest’s flights will all be full again. After all, it was the governments fault.
….and we have yet another commenter who is so deranged by politics that they have to cram it down peoples’ throats at every opportunity. You must be a real blast at parties, Don.
Just wait Ricport, just wait.
First of all, you need to set your expectations unusually low during a holiday week with weather problems. Secondly, there were many irate passengers that can't think this way, but no one lost their lives in a crash.
Yes, but to put a 77 yr old disabled vet on a plane to a connecting flight knowing it wasn't going to fly then when he gets there telling him he would be stranded in the airport for two days and basically saying he's on his own- that's just wrong! They should not have flown him to the first airport!
You’re right that we should all be patient and have some grace with them employees, but at the same time this is beyond all that. The other airlines are back on track for the most part. We weren’t notified of our canceled flight. I found out by watching the news and hearing that everyone should check their flight status. We should have been home today the 27th, but now the first flight we could book...
You’re right that we should all be patient and have some grace with them employees, but at the same time this is beyond all that. The other airlines are back on track for the most part. We weren’t notified of our canceled flight. I found out by watching the news and hearing that everyone should check their flight status. We should have been home today the 27th, but now the first flight we could book is Saturday the 31st. Hard to swallow 4 more days of expenses and not being able to get back to work.
LMAO!!!
Thank you for speaking the truth. SW technology is outdated as are it’s contracts for their employees throughout the system. They have allowed Profits over people as opposed to People over Profits (as Herb would say).
SW has not invested in better technology and seems to be running off of dial up internet with the 1st edition computer program
It seems the only thing within a consumer's direct control is to avoid booking on Southwest during peak periods of travel. MAYBE if enough customers do that, it will get the attention of management and shareholders (but I doubt it).
Shareholders will keep sucking WN dry until there’s nothing left. Should WN face consequences for this debacle, it’s passengers and employees who will feel the pain. Shareholders used to care about the long term prospects of a company. Now, they just want to get as much as they can out of a company before they move on to the next one.
I returned Dec 24 from a beautiful cruise to Miami. SWA 749 to Nashville cancelled— no problem,weather bad-safety first. Found a hotel- rebooked for cmas day on the morning flight. After delay after delay— cancelled. I was able to get on slide 749 in the evening at departed at 5:05 after multiple delays that flight was canceled at 11:30 PM and I proceeded to get a hotel room for the night. The airport was chaotic...
I returned Dec 24 from a beautiful cruise to Miami. SWA 749 to Nashville cancelled— no problem,weather bad-safety first. Found a hotel- rebooked for cmas day on the morning flight. After delay after delay— cancelled. I was able to get on slide 749 in the evening at departed at 5:05 after multiple delays that flight was canceled at 11:30 PM and I proceeded to get a hotel room for the night. The airport was chaotic and Southwest Airlines kept its passengers waiting for eight hours before they decide to cancel the flight . I was able to get a reservation for December 26 at 6:40 in the morning on Southwest airlines but I didn’t even check in because I felt like it was inevitable. Checking bags was a zoo- SWA employees were stressed-Tensions were high, and temperatures were flaring. I decided to take a day off and rescheduled on AA. And all I had for cancel SWA flights. Instead of them being transparent, and just canceling all the flights 1st thing in the morning, they made us suffer through hours in the airport while they have their baggage hostage only to find out the flight was canceled. I even witnessed one flight where the flight crew the pilot and the airplane was there. They loaded the passengers on the flight, and then unload passengers and cancelled. Absolutely no information was given to passengers regarding vouchers or me or Rogers help rebooking. In fact, the gate agent told all the people on the canceled flight to report to the ticket counter and the ticket counter it’s closed. It was a complete and total cluster in Southwest Airlines. Should be ashamed how they manage this colossal debacle. Absolutely no information was given to passengers regarding vouchers or me or vouchers help rebooking. In fact, the gate agent told all the people on the canceled flight to report to the ticket counter and the ticket counter closed. It was a complete and total cluster in Southwest Airlines. Should be ashamed how they manage this colossal debacle. This is a PR debacle for SWA and I feel quite certain the CEO Will be looking for another job. This is from a flyer who has 1,700,000 miles on the airline. I guess the misnomer SouthWORST Airlines ruined my holiday— $1500 in additional expenses- Lost time with my family and the hassle and stressed. I’ve gone back and forth to the airport checking bags, getting my bag back, taking ground transportation finding a Hotel. EFAD
Exhausted, frustrated, angry, and disgusted. Shame on the leadership
Or lack thereof— The Sect of Transportation needs to put SWA on probation and instead of finding them have them give each passenger $5000 in restitution for the PTSD we all suffered! Merry Xmas to all and to all a good flight!
TAP
Southwest says they need to "reposition" crews to their aircraft, a quick question, did their airplanes fly around with no crews over Christmas?
Should there not already be crews in the same cities as the aircraft?
Should not those crews be able to re-position aircraft?
What am I missing?
The airplanes operate for 16 or more hours a day, while the crews are limited by law (and safety, and common sense) to how long their work day can be. As Southwest's planes hop around to six or seven destinations per day, they need to be recrewed in some city where the crew arrived the previous day on a different flight and has had sufficient rest time.
Throw in the fact they don't fly overnight/red eyes and that just makes the mess even worse. Can't even shuffle crew/aircraft around during "downtime"
Agreed with your premise but with most flights and crews idled for the last couple days (and next couple days), there should presumably have been time for crew rest. Remember, this didn't just start yesterday...
The US government cannot fix anything.
But they can impose fines - oftentimes the only language businesses understand.
Southwest is a prime example.
A simple answer for a simple mind...
Quite the Christmess at Southwest.
In hindsight, I have to thank AA - because they piggy-priced their Xmas flights, I flew the week before Xmas (with no issues) for $100's less. Not exactly the same as being there on Xmas day itself, but very stress-free in the end...
Just like a data breach..."We're really sorry. We take this very seriously. This is our top priority...blah...blah...blahhh..." Nothing changes as there is no accountability other than to shareholders. That's the system that needs to be fixed to restore quality in the industry. Give it two weeks and everyone will forget this just like always.
They are scamming the public and you can't get through to them online or via phone. They cancelled future flights, have your luggage, the counter representatives are rude and less than helpful in anyway. The government should get involved. A class action suite needs to be started and these crooks should be shut down.
whats a class action suite?
Interesting article. I never used to fly Southwest because I had heard bad things about it. Recently, I moved to Oakland, Calif. and so have booked a couple of flights with them as not many airlines go out of Oakland . NEVER AGAIN. I was at the Orange Country airport today adn experienced pretty much everything you are telling me. I was convinced it wasn't just "weather" for all the reasons you have described. In...
Interesting article. I never used to fly Southwest because I had heard bad things about it. Recently, I moved to Oakland, Calif. and so have booked a couple of flights with them as not many airlines go out of Oakland . NEVER AGAIN. I was at the Orange Country airport today adn experienced pretty much everything you are telling me. I was convinced it wasn't just "weather" for all the reasons you have described. In fact, I asked a couple of employees why the Southwest terminal was pandamonium but none of the other terminals were, why none of the other airlines had cancelled 75 % of their flights, etc. The staff was rude and unhelpful and they kept saying that we would not be able to get a flight for another for at least "3 to 5 days." I saw all these people standing in a 4 hour line and I knew they weren't going to get any help. I chose not to stand in the line and booked a flight with Spirit for the next day. I will of course try to get reimbursed for that flight but I strongly doubty I will be. I do think we need regulations similar to what Europe has . I am European (from the Netherlands) and I also have US citizenship, and I find the fact that there are virtually zero consumer protections for US passengers shameful.
As long as the US domestic airline industry will operate with a business model of running a credit card mill that prospects for applicants by flying them (cheaply) from Point A to Point B this is what you will get.
CHeck with what the ailine agrees to provide
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/airline-customer-service-dashboard
No, the government should not step in. The government should STEP OUT. Billions in taxpayer funded bailouts over the last 3 years and this is what we get. Will we never learn?
he is not saying the govt. should provide bailouts for SW. he is saying we should have consumer protection laws, as they have in Europe. and he is right.
I disagree that we need government guidelines and punishments for operational difficulties. Why? Your post suggests why: American, with similar hubs 0% cancellations. They operate under the same federal rules as Southwest and have managed to get back on track as Southwest melts down. Hence, it’s not the government oversight, it’s the airline itself. So let the market punish them as they lose customers who for their next trip will choose to go to a...
I disagree that we need government guidelines and punishments for operational difficulties. Why? Your post suggests why: American, with similar hubs 0% cancellations. They operate under the same federal rules as Southwest and have managed to get back on track as Southwest melts down. Hence, it’s not the government oversight, it’s the airline itself. So let the market punish them as they lose customers who for their next trip will choose to go to a competitor. That should provide the motivation to fix the problems. Not everything needs the government trying to “fix” a problem, and copying the big government approach or Europe is rarely a wise choice.
Your reasoning for lack of government policy doesn't add up. That's like saying the government shouldn't regulate banks because some behave themselves. Or the government should not have traffic laws because some people drive under the speed limit.
Regulation is to prevent a company from doing wrong so other companies going right have little to do with the need for regulation or public policy.
Well, airlines with great performance wouldn't be affected by consumer protection laws anyway.
The current situation is absurd - most customers fly on nonrefundable fares. If they choose to withdraw from the contract, they pay 100% penalty. If an airline choses to withdraw, there is no penalty at all. How is that fair or even remotely acceptable? I would argue that even the European legislation doesn't go far enough.
Oh and by the way, this...
Well, airlines with great performance wouldn't be affected by consumer protection laws anyway.
The current situation is absurd - most customers fly on nonrefundable fares. If they choose to withdraw from the contract, they pay 100% penalty. If an airline choses to withdraw, there is no penalty at all. How is that fair or even remotely acceptable? I would argue that even the European legislation doesn't go far enough.
Oh and by the way, this has nothing to do with big government. There were no new enforcing bodies created in Europe after rigorous passenger rights were implemented.
All airlines failed miserably this christmas weekend. Absolute embarrassment and many people's holidays were ruined. Never again.
Huh? No they didn’t.
You dont know what you're talking about.
We flew from SFO to LAS via BUR and got stuck in Burbank Christmas night. Told we were rebooked on a flight but not told which one!
I think this was software failure, employees were not terribly helpful and I am done with them.
Are you asking for a pre-deregulation world again? Awesome in the 70's, a transcontinental flight was 1/6 of the average person's salary. But hey flights were only 60% full and now you solved the pilot/employee crisis.
Not a bad thing to reduce demand for travel -> reduce carbon emissions
Not many options in the US as they have a terrible rail network outside of the north east. And of course no alternative to Hawaii Alaska or puerto Rico
Europe has both deregulated market (arguably to a larger extent than the US) and consumer protections. They are not contradictory in any way.
@Samo exactly. That's the thing that a lot of the commenters here don't seem to understand, that the only options aren't only two extremes (total regulation or animalistic survival of the fittest).
Capitalism and the free market does not exclude the role of laws and public policies. Lots of industrialized countries (and even developing countries!) have both deregulated markets and consumer protections, but not the USA.
Also, the government’s failure to impose a bare minimum of consumer protections on airlines is a subsidy to the airlines in and of itself. No one’s advocating going back to before deregulation, but the current state of affairs isn’t a free or fair market either. This meltdown was entirely predictable given Southwest’s continued lack of investment in its own operations. But because WN management, it’s board, and it’s shareholders, knew they wouldn’t really be held...
Also, the government’s failure to impose a bare minimum of consumer protections on airlines is a subsidy to the airlines in and of itself. No one’s advocating going back to before deregulation, but the current state of affairs isn’t a free or fair market either. This meltdown was entirely predictable given Southwest’s continued lack of investment in its own operations. But because WN management, it’s board, and it’s shareholders, knew they wouldn’t really be held accountable to consumers (who have zero negotiating power and limited choice) they had no incentive to shore up their operational resilience. The far more rational choice (and why the execs and board likely won’t face consequences) was to continue funneling that money towards shareholders who in return would continue to support the current board and management. As a result the lack of regulation/consumer protection is nothing more than the government choosing to subsidize increasing shareholder value and wealth at the cost of passengers.
I kind of enjoy seeing this smug airline get its butt kicked. Southwest has always been a profit driven machine that pretends to “luv” its customers. The chickens have come home to roost. Glad I’m not a Southwest customer!
And here we see the marketplace regulating and punishing poor performance. This is why we don’t need the government trying to fix these problems - customers will when the problem bother them.
I totally agree with you!! I am never flying Southwest again. I have only used them a couple of times, despite being a heavy traveler (also internationally), now I know why ! (I am one of those stranded customers due to their total incompetence).
I have been laughed and ridiculed far too long for prefering AA over LUV as a dfw resident. It is nice to see people are finally realizing that LUV is just as bad if not worse than AA.
I was flying Southwest coming back from Vegas, leaving LV at 12:40 yesterday and getting in at 9:05 last night.
Instead, my first flight left Vegas at 3:40 and arrived in Chicago over an hour after my connecting flight to Cincinnati had left or was cancelled (don't know which). The stated reason for the first delay was a lack of flight attendants; other flights had problems getting pilots. The reason for that in turn is...
I was flying Southwest coming back from Vegas, leaving LV at 12:40 yesterday and getting in at 9:05 last night.
Instead, my first flight left Vegas at 3:40 and arrived in Chicago over an hour after my connecting flight to Cincinnati had left or was cancelled (don't know which). The stated reason for the first delay was a lack of flight attendants; other flights had problems getting pilots. The reason for that in turn is that there are FAA limits on how many hours pilots and attendants can work in a day, and many would have gone over if they took another flight on a given day.
There was a customer service rep trying to get people on other flights, mostly today, but after I'd been in line for over three hours, at 1 AM she announced she was leaving because she'd been on duty for 16 hours. I was third in line at that point, and loudly and without profanity demanded that a supervisor be sent to lie to us. The "supervisor" did that, but had no information to offer. All we could do was stay in line until the morning shift arrived, as "we are not a 24-hour airline". The morning shift was to be in at 2:30 vs. their regular 3:30 (first flights are at 5 AM). I was with a LOT of people sleeping on the floor of the terminal.
Oh, and for those who gave up and either went home, to a hotel, or managed to rent a car? Good luck getting your luggage back, because it was all over the place and no one was answering their phones. Basically, your luggage was going to sit until it was sent to your destination, never mind that YOU couldn't get there.
The morning shift person arrived at 3:30, not 2:30, and was really trying to help but not getting much love from the computers or "freaking corporate", as she put it. BUT eventually she put me on an 8:15 AM flight. I had been in line from 9:48 PM to around 6 AM. Then my flight, like so many others, kept changing gates, with people having to hustle around. And the time kept changing, too, at least on the Southwest app. I remember checking it and seeing a Leaving time of 8:15 "on time", a flight time of 1:10, and an arrival time in Cincy of about 11:35, 2 hours late. The math doesn't quite work.
Now at this point, it's important to note that the gate personnel were working hard. They just didn't have enough information or much hope to offer. Surprisingly, there was very little animosity; desperation, frustration, depression, very much in abundance, but all the potential flyers recognized that it was NOT the fault of the gate people, and almost everyone kept their collective cool. Even the little kids, who everyone was happy to see running around so they'd wear themselves out.
Getting back to the subject--My flight eventually left around 8:45-9:00 and got in around 10:10, surprisingly not full. Then came the wait for the checked bags. Which, for most of the people with whom I'd become acquainted while in the foxholes of Midway, never showed up. I don't know if it ever left Chicago. Hell, I don't know if it ever left Las Vegas. I waited for over an hour, said, "fuggit", caught the shuttle to my parking lot, and came home. It was almost 24 hours from LV airport to home, and I had it lucky compared to some people, who were at Midway on Monday morning and had been there since Friday.
My luggage could be in Las Vegas, Chicago, Cincinnati, Baltimore (my final flight's next stop), or, for all I know, The Restaurant At the End Of the Universe. Almost anything important is not in that bag, but there are some things I'd like to have back, such as most of my clothes.
Yes, the weather late last week didn't help, but this was more than a weather issue. This was an organizational Charlie Foxtrot of the biggest kind. The employees on duty really tried, but they had as much chance as the Little Dutch Boy would have had with 22 holes in the dike.
I may reconsider at some point, but as of now the ONLY reason I'd fly with Southwest ever again would be to use up points/miles. When I could have stayed in Vegas an extra 8-10 hours, caught the Delta redeye, and been home 6-7 hours before I actually got home, all for around $200, I should have said "forget it" and not used miles for this mess.
This was supposed to be a day of relaxation and working on stuff at home. Instead, I'm both dog tired and trying to unwind from a day in airline Hell.
"USDOT is concerned by Southwest Airlines' disproportionate and unacceptable rate of cancellations and delays as well as the failure to properly support customers experiencing a cancellation or delay," the Department of Transportation said late Monday. "As more information becomes available the Department will closely examine whether cancellations were controllable and whether Southwest is complying with its customer service plan as well as all other pertinent DOT rules."
"USDOT is concerned by Southwest Airlines' disproportionate and unacceptable rate of cancellations and delays as well as the failure to properly support customers experiencing a cancellation or delay," the Department of Transportation said late Monday. "As more information becomes available the Department will closely examine whether cancellations were controllable and whether Southwest is complying with its customer service plan as well as all other pertinent DOT rules."
Truth is that ticket prices have declined throughout decades. Tickets have nit adjusted to inflation, and if the government start regulating the airlines, get ready to pay 100 usd per check luggage , pay for limited a eight carry on. People think the government can solve everything,
do you realize how insanely expensive domestic flying in the US is compared to flying inside Europe? A highly regulated but competitive aviation market
Talk about subsidized airlines. And at least as many airlines have failed and /reorganized. The latest Alitalia now ITA and still looking for a buyer. At a cost of billions to the Italian people. Good job 100% government control.
Europe's largest airline is Ryanair, hardly subsidized in any way (except few PSO routes). They deliver very cheap fares despite being obligated to compensate passengers when they screw up.
The solution is simply to ensure you'll screw up as little as possible. In case of Southwest, it would mean investing into a better crew scheduling system.
It's absurd to believe this would have a major impact on fares - it didn't anywhere in Europe because...
Europe's largest airline is Ryanair, hardly subsidized in any way (except few PSO routes). They deliver very cheap fares despite being obligated to compensate passengers when they screw up.
The solution is simply to ensure you'll screw up as little as possible. In case of Southwest, it would mean investing into a better crew scheduling system.
It's absurd to believe this would have a major impact on fares - it didn't anywhere in Europe because the price is set by the market and competiton.
As Ronald Reagan said, “the nine most terrifying words in the English language are: “I’m from the government, and I’m here to help.” Bingo.
Uh, do you mean the former president who had Alzheimer's while in office? Oh right, THAT one!
You quoted Reagan.
LOLOLOLOLOL!
Now quote Trump.
SW is a dog; a DOG
While it is undeniable the current state of affairs with Southwest’s operation is in shambles, you miss some really notable facts. One major reason why Southwest has been disproportionately affected is the business model itself: It is point-to-point versus hub-and-spoke model. Just one of nearly 800 planes that SWA operates will easily do 10 flights a day; some less of course depending on length of flights a particular tail number does. The planes do not...
While it is undeniable the current state of affairs with Southwest’s operation is in shambles, you miss some really notable facts. One major reason why Southwest has been disproportionately affected is the business model itself: It is point-to-point versus hub-and-spoke model. Just one of nearly 800 planes that SWA operates will easily do 10 flights a day; some less of course depending on length of flights a particular tail number does. The planes do not go back and forth; they fly all over the country, and what allows SWA to offer the most non-stop flights. The risk to that is of course when there is a weather event in one spot, it will have an effect on all the 9 flights that particular plane was supposed to fly that day. Multiple that by a large portion of the country being affected by weather, and the airline cannot bounce back without en masse cancellations to essentially restart the operation. You simply cannot get the planes to where they were supposed to be, and with that you cannot get crews to where they were supposed to be. The other major problem you miss in your analysis is the lack of modern technology available to try and mitigate any issues. Unfortunately, the previous CEO did not invest in technology, and yes, those share-holder buybacks always took priority. SWA is always cost-conscious, and that has bitten them in the ass countless times already. They did not want to spend the money! There’s no magical way of fixing that quickly because it’s extremely complex and intertwined. Sadly, many of the processes employed are manual, especially ones dealing with crew scheduling where they utilize phones to call people of changes or cancellations, etc. Well, when you have headcounts in the tens of thousands between pilots and flight attendants, it becomes an arduous and painstaking task. Crews can’t reach them on the phone because the schedulers are on the phone with someone else. Nor is it easy to reschedule someone because it’s all based on rest, legality, duty-days, length of current day, a minimum time for an overnight, etc. Nor is it easy to implement new automation when you have a unionized workforce. Each workgroup operates under a completely different contract governed by different rules. When you have contracts that were written to address potential issues in a world of manual processes, you can’t just snap your finger and buy or implement automation that isn’t vetted and can take into account the parameters of a given contract. If a contract has provisions of what happens during situation X, Y, Z in a manual manner, the automation may conflict with other articles that were agreed to separately. It takes years to come up with a collective bargaining agreement, and then bottom line is that the automation needs to coincide with a CBA. It’s all complex, and they should have dealt with this many years ago. Instead, they’re trying to play catch-up. To your main argument regarding staffing - staffing is not the problem. It’s especially not the problem in winter months where flying is ~750 to ~1000 flights less per day than it is in summer months. Meaning all the extra people you hired to staff a full summer schedule are there for the reduced winter schedule. The issue is getting those people (and physical aircraft) to where they are supposed to be. That’s the hard part! The only way to mitigate currently is cancel, cancel preemptively, and reset the entire operation. Until this occurs again…
I wonder if frequency of '100 year's weather events will increase sufficiently in the near future such that even controlling other factors (labor unrest, lack of modern crew scheduling software, etc) swa's model doesn't work.
Good to know the Southwest paid apologists are out in force. Maybe you guys should be helping get the lost bags out of the transit holds
While I have an immense amount of sympathy for anyone stranded - especially at this time of the year - I can't help but feel an immense amount of schadenfreude that this joke of an airline is finally starting to get its comeuppance. From its bothersome boarding bingo (where you get the joy of walking up to complete strangers and say "Are you A 5? I'm A4!"), to the festival seating where you get to...
While I have an immense amount of sympathy for anyone stranded - especially at this time of the year - I can't help but feel an immense amount of schadenfreude that this joke of an airline is finally starting to get its comeuppance. From its bothersome boarding bingo (where you get the joy of walking up to complete strangers and say "Are you A 5? I'm A4!"), to the festival seating where you get to fight for a seat like a pack of starving raccoons over a trash can, to the annoying FAs who think the PA is an excuse to try out their woeful attempt at comedy, to the chance to earn FF tix to exciting and exotic destinations like Amarillo and Providence (in cattle class, no less!), I've never understood why some love this glorified Metrobus with wings so much. That's not to mention the more serious problems of an increasingly toxic relationship with their employees, their stubborn refusal to invest in technology, and their far-too-cozy, and far-too-troubling relationship with FAA inspectors. If only they had spent all those millions on PR trying to convince everyone how wonderful their airline is on upgrading technology and hiring/keeping employees genuinely happy...
Oh - and kudos for OMAAT for having the cojones to actually report the truth, instead of burying this story, like many of the major airline blogs are currently doing.
I totally agree!
Southwest, the Rollo Tomasi of the airline industry.
Yep, stuck with family on connecting flight in Oakland on Christmas. Our plane and pilot were there, but missing two FAs which seemed to be the deal across the airport. According to staff there, the central staffing which should reallocate FAs was just broken--so most of the airport was on rolling delay with FAs waiting to time out. They should have cancelled flights preemptively but looks like they didn't have local control to do that....
Yep, stuck with family on connecting flight in Oakland on Christmas. Our plane and pilot were there, but missing two FAs which seemed to be the deal across the airport. According to staff there, the central staffing which should reallocate FAs was just broken--so most of the airport was on rolling delay with FAs waiting to time out. They should have cancelled flights preemptively but looks like they didn't have local control to do that. Rental cars were all gone, too; luckily fam could borrow a car from friends to get to our destination, but most were not so lucky. Who cancels a noon flight 14 hours later at 2am with no communications?!?! Even their text message alerts broke and were sending me delay texts six hours late.
Yes, my Southwest return flight today, Dec 26, from Nashville TN to Orlando FL was cancelled without any notice to my listed contact methods. I cannot get through to the airline by phone and no flights are available to reschedule at least to Friday. I am forced to drive the rental car 10.5 hours to Orlando and turn it in there, which is an additional $550 added to the rental car bill. Southwest previously did...
Yes, my Southwest return flight today, Dec 26, from Nashville TN to Orlando FL was cancelled without any notice to my listed contact methods. I cannot get through to the airline by phone and no flights are available to reschedule at least to Friday. I am forced to drive the rental car 10.5 hours to Orlando and turn it in there, which is an additional $550 added to the rental car bill. Southwest previously did this to my flight in April. I will never trust or fly with Southwest again.
We were supposed to leave out Christmas morning spent 6 1/2 hours trying to get rebooted. Same flight number 3 days later if it's canceled I will never fly Southwest again. Today when I called customer service I was on hold for 2 hours and 46 minutes. UNACCEPTABLE! My time is just as important as Southwest
the US Dept. of Transportation has said it is concerned by the "unacceptable level of cancellations and delays."
Southwest is finally putting customers up in hotels and saying it will not rebook anywhere before the end of the year.
They have already cancelled 61% of tomorrow's flights and 28% of Wednesday's.
This will cost them easily a half billion dollars.
This is a come to Jesus moment for Southwest. This even...
the US Dept. of Transportation has said it is concerned by the "unacceptable level of cancellations and delays."
Southwest is finally putting customers up in hotels and saying it will not rebook anywhere before the end of the year.
They have already cancelled 61% of tomorrow's flights and 28% of Wednesday's.
This will cost them easily a half billion dollars.
This is a come to Jesus moment for Southwest. This even will define their future and reshape everything they are or they will cease to exist.
There simply is no other choice.
Southwest had a meltdown in Oct 2021. Not much changed as a result and people quickly moved on. Delta, Spirit, and American had meltdowns last year and people are packing their planes right now. While this will be very expensive and a PR mess, I doubt this is the come to Jesus moment. After taking a write down for this mess, Southwest will be the world's most profitable airline by Q2 2023.
I'll take the under on your comment.
You simply don't appreciate how badly this will affect Southwest.
Nothing of this scale has ever happened to another airline in the US airline industry.
Southwest stock was up 1.78% today as the airline was canceling flights. Apparently the market is not sharing the concern you have as this being an existential threat for the continuation of the company.
I can see the board firing the CEO such as JetBlue did to David Neeleman after their winter meltdown a decade ago. Do you really think Southwest is going to abandon any of the 18 cities it expanded into during the pandemic to increase resiliency in the near future?
The market has been closed since Friday. We'll see tomorrow what investors think.
LUV is down 4% in pre-market trading and that accelerated overnight. Other airline stocks are up.
This will be an extraordinarily costly disaster for Southwest unique what any other airline is facing.
If they make Gary Kelly the fall guy for this one, you're going to have a lot of long-term employees walk. He still has a lot of loyalty from the old guard at WN and he's the thread going back to Herb. Besides, Bob Jordan neutered him when he got kicked upstairs. It's Jordan and his policies that are currently wreaking havoc all over the country. Jordan needs to go, and go now.
you are simply wrong. I am never flying southwest again (and, in fact, I rarely flew them before as I hate their stupide seating thing where you have to find your own seat; they always struck me as a bad airline only out for quick profit). the dept of transportation says they are looking into Southwest's fiasco and I am pretty certain almost every person affected by this, myself included, will NEVER AGAIN BOOK A...
you are simply wrong. I am never flying southwest again (and, in fact, I rarely flew them before as I hate their stupide seating thing where you have to find your own seat; they always struck me as a bad airline only out for quick profit). the dept of transportation says they are looking into Southwest's fiasco and I am pretty certain almost every person affected by this, myself included, will NEVER AGAIN BOOK A FLIGHT WITH SW. I would venture to say you don't know what you are talking about.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Southwest didn't "schedule too many flights", and safety is an issue when you have pilots and crew that aren't getting adequate rest and are timing out, because they legally can't fly (FAA rules, not Southwest). And saying Southwest "gives up" is insulting to the employees and staff that are working double and triple shifts to try and get this nightmare handled. Ultimately, Southwest did a terrible job...
You have no idea what you're talking about. Southwest didn't "schedule too many flights", and safety is an issue when you have pilots and crew that aren't getting adequate rest and are timing out, because they legally can't fly (FAA rules, not Southwest). And saying Southwest "gives up" is insulting to the employees and staff that are working double and triple shifts to try and get this nightmare handled. Ultimately, Southwest did a terrible job overall and there's no denying that. But your article is based on presumptions and guesses, not facts. I know...because I was there in the thick of it.
you were there in the thick of it? Well, the southwest employees at the airport I was at were AWFUL. they were rude, unhelpful, and telling lie afer lie after lie, claiming that "all' the cancellations were due to the "weather." None of it made any sense. They told everyone to "get their new flight " o the phone or computer. However, the phone line was and is busy (i mean gives a busy tone)....
you were there in the thick of it? Well, the southwest employees at the airport I was at were AWFUL. they were rude, unhelpful, and telling lie afer lie after lie, claiming that "all' the cancellations were due to the "weather." None of it made any sense. They told everyone to "get their new flight " o the phone or computer. However, the phone line was and is busy (i mean gives a busy tone). when you try to book a flight (FIVE DAYS OUT) Southwest says that the "system is currently under maintenance." What a joke. I hope you guys go bankrupt.
Public memory is short and they cash on it. We had a fiasco with Spirit during Spring Break and now its Southwest turns. Come next year everyone forgets as people dont have lot of choice. Our flight with Frontier also cancelled this weekend. Govt should definitely have to make a policy around this. This is not just about refund. Who will bear all the expenses of the reservations that are made or alternative flight prices...
Public memory is short and they cash on it. We had a fiasco with Spirit during Spring Break and now its Southwest turns. Come next year everyone forgets as people dont have lot of choice. Our flight with Frontier also cancelled this weekend. Govt should definitely have to make a policy around this. This is not just about refund. Who will bear all the expenses of the reservations that are made or alternative flight prices people has to pay? They cannot just wash off by saying we apologize and here is your money back.
Humbug South West is a legend airline trading as a value airline with a good fare basis and that’s about it .They have been caught with pants down before notable Not giving there AP mechanics time to finish the job problems Rushing weight and Balance in certain rotations and putting maintenance on the back burner with the FAA looking on with a critical eye .Note in every excuse by South West safety was mentioned 5...
Humbug South West is a legend airline trading as a value airline with a good fare basis and that’s about it .They have been caught with pants down before notable Not giving there AP mechanics time to finish the job problems Rushing weight and Balance in certain rotations and putting maintenance on the back burner with the FAA looking on with a critical eye .Note in every excuse by South West safety was mentioned 5 times it was not a factor atall To quote Herbie Boy to O Leary Ryan Air 3 things CUT THE PRICE CUT THE PRICE CUT THE PRICE he did not cut anything Yes he is gone but he had a big heart but that don’t run an airline .Needleman and Jet Blue hit the same wall and was ousted swiftly With snow blizzards blowing .I usually stick to AA as theyseem to hold under pressure Would like Delta started by a bunch of crop duster guys and they are tough as nails but not in my area . LUV didnt handle this debacle well This is USA heads should role and the new command should attend Udvar -Hazy school of Aviation Management As Napoleon said (when in command Command looks like there was no one actually in command
What we are seeing is SW imploding from within. Here's an interesting tweet from Ohio Capital Ideas, "Southwest is the Wells Fargo of airlines - surviving for years on past reputation and nobody realized how much deterioration had gone on."
I totally believe it, the SW that I knew back in the 90's no longer exists. Their airfares are substantially higher than the other carriers.
Southwest expanded its route network significantly during the pandemic stretching its resources and ability to cope with failures. While it is still one of the most profitable airlines in existence, I hope the board holds management accountable and replaces them. Wells Fargo engaged in fraud, WN was just incompetent by not building in resiliency during the winter schedule.
...and during the summer or any other time of the year
they cannot operate like this any longer and they have no choice but to slow down growth until they get the systems and processes in place to make sure this never happens again.
Prior to this meltdown, they already committed to stop expansion during the second half of 2021 to build in resiliency. It should be noted that this meltdown occurred with their staffing levels beyond where it was in 2019.
Southwest has ruined three days of our holidays. We were all set to meet our kids in Chicago on Christmas Eve, but after making us wait for hours, expecting our flight from PWM would take off, it was cancelled due to not enough flight attendants. It only got worse after that. They rebooked us on a flight to Chicago Midway through BWI. We got to BWI 3 hours late, but then many hours later, at...
Southwest has ruined three days of our holidays. We were all set to meet our kids in Chicago on Christmas Eve, but after making us wait for hours, expecting our flight from PWM would take off, it was cancelled due to not enough flight attendants. It only got worse after that. They rebooked us on a flight to Chicago Midway through BWI. We got to BWI 3 hours late, but then many hours later, at 1:00 am, they cancelled our flight to Chicago, again because they only had 1 flight attendant and needed 3. So we got rebooked on a flight today to O'Hare, but of course that was cancelled, too. Southwest refused to find our bags or re-route them to O'Hare, so we've been living without our luggage, including all of the family Christmas gifts and of course all of our clothing. Who knows whether we'll ever find them. They gave us a hotel voucher at a hotel that had no occupancy, and did this to many other travelers, including some with toddlers. Southwest refused to find a passenger's car seat after cancelling her flight, so she had to transport her 2 year old without one. This was all due to staffing shortages. Tomorrow, we hope to get to Chicago 4 days late because we have a flight on American. Southwestern should not be booking flights that it cannot staff. I agree the EU rule would put a stop to this.
Its always telling when you want to make a reservation and pay online you can get right through. But if you have ALREADY made a reservation and they have your money in hand, you are told to leave your number on the recording and they will GET BACK to you in .... wait for it ... 36 minutes ...
This is not about consumer protections, and the last thing we need are more politicians spending more of our tax dollars to put their pet "fix-it" projects in place. The comments on GOP are completely unfounded. I suspect when we peel this one back, we will find that union pressure, and deliberate sabatoge are playing the biggest roles in trying to bring down the most successful airline travel company in the US. And yes, I...
This is not about consumer protections, and the last thing we need are more politicians spending more of our tax dollars to put their pet "fix-it" projects in place. The comments on GOP are completely unfounded. I suspect when we peel this one back, we will find that union pressure, and deliberate sabatoge are playing the biggest roles in trying to bring down the most successful airline travel company in the US. And yes, I fly SWA whenever possible, and will continue to do so.
Okay…no. I’m probably of better authority on WN than anyone commenting on this thread (the airline literally funded my childhood). This *is* WN now, ever since Herb moved on, and Gary Kelly and the shareholders took over.
I could go on for weeks about the plummeted staff morale and managerial competence over the past decade under his “leadership,” culminating in massive expansion in 2020/2021, namely Hawaii, while so many staff were pushed to early retirement...
Okay…no. I’m probably of better authority on WN than anyone commenting on this thread (the airline literally funded my childhood). This *is* WN now, ever since Herb moved on, and Gary Kelly and the shareholders took over.
I could go on for weeks about the plummeted staff morale and managerial competence over the past decade under his “leadership,” culminating in massive expansion in 2020/2021, namely Hawaii, while so many staff were pushed to early retirement because of COVID, hence the short staffing we’re seeing still to this day. This is on top of the already questionable equipment used for scheduling, and flight attendants still having to work multi-day trips in succession on the brink of violation.
So no, this hasn’t jack squat to do with political parties, vaccines, unions (barely any help at all, behind the scenes) or any other scapegoat you and others are mentioning here.
This. Is. Herb’s. Airline. Being. Run. Into. The ground.
That simple.
I’m sure he’s spinning in his grave right now.
I’m a WN lifer with no apologies, and I wish people would quit complaining about their boarding process after 50 years... But they need to get this together and get it together NOW.
Someday there might be a good AI system that will figure out where to send crews instead of their planned journeys. I'm sure that some FA and pilots have the flexibility to fly to Midway instead of Denver and take a completely different set of flights for a few days.
The IRS can't answer its phones so regulation and having the FAA run the airline is not the answer.
The IRS can't answer its phones because the GOP and the Trump administration gutted its funding time and time again, not because the people working there are incompetent.
The notion of funding the IRS terrifies rich donors who don't follow tax laws like average people do (to say nothing of lobbying for loopholes that can only benefit the ultra rich)
My daughter was supposed to fly from SJC to BUR today— canceled. Rebooked for tomorrow, now cancelled along will all flights from Bay Area to LA area. She needed to cancel work for tomorrow. Solution now is to drive to LA tomorrow with her, no rental cars available. This is disgraceful and SW needs to take accountability and the government needs to investigate and restrict there schedules until they can prove they are worthy of flying the public
On Saturday 24th, I was caught up in the cancellation / rebooking cycle couple of times to San Diego from New Orleans. Finally, available flight got in on Wednesday 28th via Dallas & Phenix and this was rebooked by SWA (LUV). My return flight is for Friday 30th and SWA will not allow to change! Evident that not worth to take a trip for less than two days! Highly disappointed, I ended up cancelling our travel and will visit our daughter in San Diego another time.
I guess in a bizarre way we were among the lucky ones. Our original flight on 12/25 got cancelled after receiving very late text notifications about several delays. Then we were rebooked today at 7:30 am which you can imagine was a bit tiring for us as we didn’t return home from the first cancellation until 11 pm. Up today 12/26 at 4 am to be at the Burbank airport in plenty of time to...
I guess in a bizarre way we were among the lucky ones. Our original flight on 12/25 got cancelled after receiving very late text notifications about several delays. Then we were rebooked today at 7:30 am which you can imagine was a bit tiring for us as we didn’t return home from the first cancellation until 11 pm. Up today 12/26 at 4 am to be at the Burbank airport in plenty of time to sit another 4 hours before being told this new flight was also cancelled. We are through trying this trip. I’m hoping for at least a refund at this point!
Another example of American exceptionalism...
Who could have thought that voting for gop politicians who advocate for removing consumer protections would come back to bite them???
Sadly it's both sides (GOP and corporate Dems) who advocate against consumer protections at the behest of their corporate overlords - but we're too stupid to vote for candidates who might actually give a shit about helping and improving the lives of Americans...
Well when a country brands the entire progressive wing of Democrats as “Communists” and Moderate wing of GOP as “RINOS”, then you are obviously gonna end up with a society that is under the mercy of the corporates
The GOP is not currently in power in the House, the Senate, or the White House. I agree that they suck, but how is this their fault? For failing to get elected?
Agreed, it's both sides. And with little choice given the corruption of corporate donations and sway on both parties nothing will ever change. Until we have the courage to say, enough.
The US airline industry was deregulated under Jimmy Carter, a Democrat
The deregulation process began under Republican Gerald Ford.
Yet, the process was begun during the Ford administration: "....But by way of authenticating these observations about the origins of airline deregulation, I can say that, in February 1975, as the Acting Secretary of Transportation, I had the opportunity to be the first Executive Branch witness to testify in Congress in favor of airline deregulation. There are two amusing footnotes to that congressional appearance. The Ford Administration was already working on an airline deregulation proposal....
Yet, the process was begun during the Ford administration: "....But by way of authenticating these observations about the origins of airline deregulation, I can say that, in February 1975, as the Acting Secretary of Transportation, I had the opportunity to be the first Executive Branch witness to testify in Congress in favor of airline deregulation. There are two amusing footnotes to that congressional appearance. The Ford Administration was already working on an airline deregulation proposal. The invitation from Senator Ted Kennedy to testify on the subject....was a welcome opportunity to float the Administration's deregulation views in a friendly forum....
John w. Barnum, General Counsel, Undersecretary and Deputy Secretary of the Department of Transportation (1971-1978)
https://corporate.findlaw.com/law-library/what-prompted-airline-deregulation-20-years-ago-what-were-the.html
And a Congress in which both houses were controlled by the Democrats. Their performance in DC was part of why I became a Republican, which also didn't last.
@Abiding Dude - What part of 'Ford Administration' (was already working on an airline deregulation proposal) - not Ford Senate....not Ford House of Representatives - did you miss in the above?
...sigh. It figures some moron would have to inject politics into this. Take your politics and put it where the sun don't shine.
Oh well....I guess correcting a historical inaccuracy is somehow "injecting politics" into this.
Thanks for playing.
Between the extortionist pilots, childish flight attendants and over zealous scheduling.....knowing there's no way they can operate all of the flights they sell...something needs to change. Maybe someone can find Mayor Pete and convince him that its time to start regulating this crap. We've bailed out these airlines once, twice and three times over and all tens of thousands of Americans get to show for it is a Big Mac at the food court instead...
Between the extortionist pilots, childish flight attendants and over zealous scheduling.....knowing there's no way they can operate all of the flights they sell...something needs to change. Maybe someone can find Mayor Pete and convince him that its time to start regulating this crap. We've bailed out these airlines once, twice and three times over and all tens of thousands of Americans get to show for it is a Big Mac at the food court instead of Christmas dinner with their loved ones. Yes weather happens....make contingency plans for it. Weather three days ago DOESN'T give you a pass today. Southwest's crews and planes are all over the place? FIX IT. NOW. All airlines need to reduce flying by 20% and we need to get back to having a reliable and efficient aviation industry again.
EU261 type regulations are sorely needed here. The airline will get the message and operate a hell of a lot better once it starts costing them REAL money to screw people.
I am guessing that the airline lobbying effort will be in full swing. The question is will politicians turn on airlines when they still take their political contributions. I expect money will win out and this story will disappear in a couple months.
I for one who flies constantly with southwest have only experienced this only twice in my lifetime of flying. They have been nothing but helpful and refunded trips due to their delays and overbooking.
I hear and agree with all folks here that have their view. But with my experience they have been a blessing in the skies (pun) intended. While other air lines
Have killed my joy for flying. I may be...
I for one who flies constantly with southwest have only experienced this only twice in my lifetime of flying. They have been nothing but helpful and refunded trips due to their delays and overbooking.
I hear and agree with all folks here that have their view. But with my experience they have been a blessing in the skies (pun) intended. While other air lines
Have killed my joy for flying. I may be bias but they need to re-evaluate their position in these trying times fix it and move on.
“where Southwest is the largest carrier in 23 of the top 25 travel markets in the U.S”
Oh really, Southwest? Even if you fudge goal posts, this claim is questionable. Southwest dominates in large markets because of its presence in secondary airports. But there are many destinations in the Top 25 that have no or negligible secondary airports and a dominant competitor.
ATL? DTW? MSP? SLC? SEA? CLT? PHL?
The reality is that WN was grabbing at whatever they could and betting on the stars aligning. If so, they would have made a lot of money on behalf of shareholders this week. They were doing this exactly because they knew the demand right now and the fact that other airlines had scaled back and were being more responsible in anticipation of potential issues. It was a roll of the dice. They lost big.
Without...
The reality is that WN was grabbing at whatever they could and betting on the stars aligning. If so, they would have made a lot of money on behalf of shareholders this week. They were doing this exactly because they knew the demand right now and the fact that other airlines had scaled back and were being more responsible in anticipation of potential issues. It was a roll of the dice. They lost big.
Without a doubt, WN should be held responsible for this. And far beyond the idea that consumers will choose with their wallets. They need to be investigated for blatantly over scheduling and not properly staffing for contingencies. And consumers should be compensated properly for hotels and costs. If they can take money from taxpayers during down times they should darn well be held accountable when they blatently make cruel bets on them during the most crucial travel season of the year.
This is just disgusting. Ol' Herb is without a doubt rolling in his grave and ready to come back.
Correct. Herb would have never allowed this.
Make the required compensation for any delay or compensation much more expensive than building in contingency capacity.
Yes, that is what EU261 has fairly effectively done.
The distribution of the payouts to affected passengers may be a long way off fair, but the big benefit is for the passengers not affected because the airlines schedule sensibly and plan for uncommon, but not exceptional circumstances.
I'm stuck in CA as a single mom. With 3 kids. Have be offered 0 compensation and wasn't even offered a carseat for my 1yo at 7pm on Christmas eve when they couldn't find my luggage after canceling my flight. The communication has been horrendous and I am out at least $1k due to this failure. And I don't know if we will get home on Wednesday or not.
My 22 year old daughter was stuck at the Denver airport for 18 hours because her original flight was cancelled 1 hour after departure time. Why?????? Because they did not have a pilot. The airline did not know they did not have a pilot until after the plane was supposed to depart? She rebooked for a later flight chastised by customer service because she did not wait for a customer service representative in a line...
My 22 year old daughter was stuck at the Denver airport for 18 hours because her original flight was cancelled 1 hour after departure time. Why?????? Because they did not have a pilot. The airline did not know they did not have a pilot until after the plane was supposed to depart? She rebooked for a later flight chastised by customer service because she did not wait for a customer service representative in a line that ran around the airport. Threatened to not receive the difference between her original flight and the later flight only to have the second flight cancelled which the only reason she found out it was cancelled was because it was not on the departure board at the airport.
She got to the airport at 10 am and finally left the airport at 1:30 in the morning the next day. You wanna talk about safety how about stranding people/families in an airport for 18 hours with other angry and frustrated passengers with little to no regard for their personal safety or the companies inability to communicate the situation in a timely manner. In this day and age of technology to not be informed and treated professionally is unacceptable and now I understand the headlines of irate customers betraying airline employees. As a parent who had to sit around and see her adult daughter take this kind of abuse from a corporate entity is unacceptable and someone needs to be held accountable.
By the way her luggage made it to the destination before she did. WOW !!!!!
Her bag was treated with more respect and professionalism than a human was.
Good reason to NEVER fly on Southwest!!! Where is the CEO at here in all of this? No public statements from him whatsoever! PATHETIC
Airlines are one of the only businesses who can sell a product and then not deliver it. Why? Not only are they permitted to not deliver, they suffer no consequences. They don't even pay interest on the passenger's money (often for months) after they cancel and reimburse the passenger. They also do not have to compensate travelers who are unable to get deposits back for lodging when they are unable to make it to their...
Airlines are one of the only businesses who can sell a product and then not deliver it. Why? Not only are they permitted to not deliver, they suffer no consequences. They don't even pay interest on the passenger's money (often for months) after they cancel and reimburse the passenger. They also do not have to compensate travelers who are unable to get deposits back for lodging when they are unable to make it to their destination. They need to shift their focus from all profit driven to reliably delivering the products they are selling.
I believe Southwest should go to Manpower Temp Service for help. If someone called out Manpower would have it covered in 5 minutes. Manpower would go to highschools to recruit young men and women who didn't want to go to college for whatever reason and they have hundreds of offices all over the USA. I used to work for Manpower and did the hiring and drug testing for Amazon. It was a great job and...
I believe Southwest should go to Manpower Temp Service for help. If someone called out Manpower would have it covered in 5 minutes. Manpower would go to highschools to recruit young men and women who didn't want to go to college for whatever reason and they have hundreds of offices all over the USA. I used to work for Manpower and did the hiring and drug testing for Amazon. It was a great job and it was fun. They need to bring me out of retirement and I'd show them how to do it.
Are you serious??? You want a temp from manpower to fly your plane?
Sending my 77 year old mom home to Texas after a week long stay in OC, California. Dropped her at the airport to find out that her connecting flight was cancelled. She would have been stranded in Austin trying to get to Dallas. Ticket agents telling everyone they wouldn’t help rebook and couldn’t rebook until 12/30. Plus, we didn’t get notification from Southwest until 2 hours after her in initial flight took off . How...
Sending my 77 year old mom home to Texas after a week long stay in OC, California. Dropped her at the airport to find out that her connecting flight was cancelled. She would have been stranded in Austin trying to get to Dallas. Ticket agents telling everyone they wouldn’t help rebook and couldn’t rebook until 12/30. Plus, we didn’t get notification from Southwest until 2 hours after her in initial flight took off . How does an airline not notify people of cancellations before the flight? They’ve been cancelling flights all day! There were sheriffs guarding the staff and trickery counter at Orange County airport.
yes I was one of those people at OC airport trying to figure out what the hell was going on. (excuse my language). I was so disgusted by the scene. At one point the sheriff admonished me because I was trying to understand if my flight was departing (i don't usually fly southwest and thought that if your flight was cancelled they would have sent me a text; I had gottn two texts that morning...
yes I was one of those people at OC airport trying to figure out what the hell was going on. (excuse my language). I was so disgusted by the scene. At one point the sheriff admonished me because I was trying to understand if my flight was departing (i don't usually fly southwest and thought that if your flight was cancelled they would have sent me a text; I had gottn two texts that morning telling me my flight was delayed, so obviously they COULD have sent people texts announcing cancellations). the southwest employees were being rude and slow and dishonest and incompetent. NEVER AGAIN will i give this company a dime.
This has to be one of the dumbest articles ever written. Can’t believe I wasted my precious time reading this Jack of a writer. He/She/They, obviously, haven’t traveled on other airlines in the same weather or non weather related conditions. I did, it wasn’t SWA and had the worst experience of my life due to delays. This writer is trying to humiliate Southwest by singling them out as the bad guy. What does he know...
This has to be one of the dumbest articles ever written. Can’t believe I wasted my precious time reading this Jack of a writer. He/She/They, obviously, haven’t traveled on other airlines in the same weather or non weather related conditions. I did, it wasn’t SWA and had the worst experience of my life due to delays. This writer is trying to humiliate Southwest by singling them out as the bad guy. What does he know about running an airline. This is probably the same guy you see yelling and screaming at the gate agent because he didn’t get his way. I will now fly Southwest more than ever because it’s The Best Airline in the country!
Actually this is a very insightlful and smart article. If you had actually experienced what thousands upon thousands of customers of southwest have experienced today, including me, you would , I am 100% certain, never fly with Southwest again. of course it wasn't just "weather" that caused this total fiasco. your comment has no evidence or information but words like "dumb" or uninformed opinions about the writer wanting to "humiliate" Southwest. even the govt. has...
Actually this is a very insightlful and smart article. If you had actually experienced what thousands upon thousands of customers of southwest have experienced today, including me, you would , I am 100% certain, never fly with Southwest again. of course it wasn't just "weather" that caused this total fiasco. your comment has no evidence or information but words like "dumb" or uninformed opinions about the writer wanting to "humiliate" Southwest. even the govt. has said they are going to look into what happened, because obviously Southwest really really screwed up here.
Well no because SW had this previewed in full excruciating details back in Oct 2021. They did nothing to improve their mitigation software so they are repeating the same exact mistake hoping for a different result. You know how well that will turn out.
This is the kind of thing that customers don’t forget. This is on the front page of CNBC and CNN already. Stranding hundreds of thousands of passengers over Christmas is just a PR nightmare that will take a long time to recover from
Gave up on trying to call customer service line, 2 delays then my flight finally canceled. Connecting flight to ATL was also canceled. I had to be back at work in Texas on Tuesday but had to tell my boss that I was having to drive back - 965 miles to make it back quicker than the next available flight. That will be a 2 day drive. I call BS on this one. What a...
Gave up on trying to call customer service line, 2 delays then my flight finally canceled. Connecting flight to ATL was also canceled. I had to be back at work in Texas on Tuesday but had to tell my boss that I was having to drive back - 965 miles to make it back quicker than the next available flight. That will be a 2 day drive. I call BS on this one. What a PR night mare for SWA, and I actually like them and only fly them but will have to re evaluate my carriers. I'm gonna need more than a $200 voucher cause my ticket was more than that. Looks like the CEO and/or board members will have to forfiet their Christmas bonus.
Southwest had its last meltdown in Oct 2021. People move on and buy tickets based on price. For the majority of Americans, airfare is a commodity product where they seek the lowest cost offer. When Southwest runs its next sale, it will sell tickets, especially if it discounts them below its competitors.
Yes, agreed, until Government holds them accountable.
Customers will absolutely forget lmao
Worst of it all Southwest provides no hotels, meals and transportation for delayed and cancelled flights, even when it is 100% their fault. Their standard compensation is a $200 credit for future flights.
I was caught up in the cancellation fiasco. Had a direct flight early in the afternoon on Saturday. It kept getting delayed and delayed and was finally cancelled. No one would answer the phones and the line was ~200 people for the gate agent from multiple cancelled flights. First available flight got in on Wednesday (not even direct). We ended up cancelling our plans and will visit family another time.
Our family of four was heading to Vegas for the week today and our Southwest flight was cancelled. There were no options to rebook until Friday so whole vacation was cancelled. We had to cancel so many reservations so that also sucks for many other businesses.
The claims of "fully staffed" are interesting, considering that internal memo saying loads of employees were out sick and threatening to fire anyone taking time off without a doctor's note.
Yet CEO ‘s collect big salaries and perks! The unions win most of the time,but get pushed as well. Nonunion don’t have much say ,pay and get pushed harder ?
The intensity for the bottom line , the constant tweaking to squeeze the most
from the system is at it’s peak. What is the answer?
Honor your employees, be a real family , they are your bread and butter.
Stop squeezing...
Yet CEO ‘s collect big salaries and perks! The unions win most of the time,but get pushed as well. Nonunion don’t have much say ,pay and get pushed harder ?
The intensity for the bottom line , the constant tweaking to squeeze the most
from the system is at it’s peak. What is the answer?
Honor your employees, be a real family , they are your bread and butter.
Stop squeezing so hard CEO’s and boards . The flying consumer is a shareholder without a vote. Boycotting is an option temporarily.
Stop shrinking the seats, the refund policies and the long runway delays with no food or working toilets. Stop the madness.
Exactly
C'mon down CEO, CFO, UFO, Shareholders, C'mon down to the airports and show up in person yourselves to answer to your passengers, employees who bring you your money!!! If there were no passengers, stewardesses, mechanics, baggage handlers, you'd have no money yourselves, HHHEEELLLOOOO!!!! C'mon down!!! C'mon down!!!!!
So the government shouldn't get involved in health policy during a pandemic, but the Sec of Trans isn't 'doing anything'.... You're hypocrisy is stunning.
By the way, you're 'common cold' killed over a million US citizens.
I think you meant "your common cold". I get it...you didn't go to college. smh...
My grandchildren were flight cancelled on Xmas day. The family waited in line for five hours at KCI because the app was down and you had to go in person to even get a refund. This meant driving in horrible weather for a cancelled flight! I get bad weather issues but no other airline was experiencing this colossal chaos. Meanwhile I have too much pre bought food and no mouths. Sad.
I sense that perhaps you are a homophobic asshole...right ?
How many people did southwest actually terminate over vaccines?
https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/southwest-airlines-wont-fire-unvaccinated-employees
Swa didnt fire anyone over the vaccinations. Religious and medical exemptions were upheld.
You get what you pay for
I don't hear anything about a walk out of baggage handle at Denver swa
Never fly Southwest in the winter. Look at what happened back in 2018. Same crap. And I am way too old for their cattle call.
Lmaooooooo “let’s get the government to fix this” - right, yeah
Exactly! The same bunch of losers who can't even do the most basic things like secure our border or pass a budget.
I hear that
the nine most terrifying words in the English language are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"
I mean, are we still quoting Reagan like a parrot, without critical thought being deployed?
There have been tens of thousands of times since 1980 that you’ve been glad government worked, and worked well.
Effective regulation is highly useful and necessary.
One of the absolute worst things Reagan and his ilk did was sow widespread distrust in government. Seems like such an obvious statement that Governments can do a lot to improve the lives of people from regulating healthcare costs, and mandating safety standards, to cracking down on airlines treating consumers like crap. The US needs something in the vein of EC261. But die-hard free market capitalists are all “I love being screwed over by the...
One of the absolute worst things Reagan and his ilk did was sow widespread distrust in government. Seems like such an obvious statement that Governments can do a lot to improve the lives of people from regulating healthcare costs, and mandating safety standards, to cracking down on airlines treating consumers like crap. The US needs something in the vein of EC261. But die-hard free market capitalists are all “I love being screwed over by the private sector” - next time your private health insurance won’t pay for a doctor’s visit or your cable company jacks up your rate 200% for no reason, you’ve got your GOP friends to thank.
You're right. After all, the VA is such a model of efficiency and quality. Let's bring that to commercial aviation.
@Gabe, critical thought requires effort to engage in and time to become informed. It's much easier for people like the poster above you to just regurgitate a nice-sounding sentence that they've heard dozens of times before, unfortunately.
And then there's people like @Ricport with their straw man argument about the VA. They either can't grasp that advocating for some regulation is *not* the same as being in favor of the government taking over the aviation...
@Gabe, critical thought requires effort to engage in and time to become informed. It's much easier for people like the poster above you to just regurgitate a nice-sounding sentence that they've heard dozens of times before, unfortunately.
And then there's people like @Ricport with their straw man argument about the VA. They either can't grasp that advocating for some regulation is *not* the same as being in favor of the government taking over the aviation industry, or they understand that, and is just cynical. Either way, it's sad.
@ricport GOP m.o. is to underfund public services and then point to how poorly they’re running due underfunding as justification to fund them even less. USPS, VA, lots of examples.
Maybe if they were beholden to similar regulations like those in Europe. OMG I said a bad word “regulations.” And thank God you are not a pilot; your ability to stay focused and on the subject is clearly lacking.
Oh Johnnie -- I know it's a vicarious thrill for you to post inane, illiterate comments that are vacuous, unfocused, and juvenile, but PLEASE, go back to your video games in Mommy's basement. Thank you.
John - who do you think implements regulations? Do you think Pete B has zero accountability with respect to these widespread failures?
It is very hard to watch a formerly proud company be humbled so badly and take so many millions of people's plans and a lot of collateral money for vacations and associated travel expenses down the drain.
Lots of people here seem to fail to grasp that every airline has had some form of meltdown. What makes this unique is that Southwest grew so large and managed to overcome so many other meltdowns that...
It is very hard to watch a formerly proud company be humbled so badly and take so many millions of people's plans and a lot of collateral money for vacations and associated travel expenses down the drain.
Lots of people here seem to fail to grasp that every airline has had some form of meltdown. What makes this unique is that Southwest grew so large and managed to overcome so many other meltdowns that they really failed to address their operational problems.
Southwest continues to operate like a small operation without the sophistication that other airlines have been forced to address.
And, as I previously noted, the Wall Street Journal reports that FAA inspectors believe that the relationship between the FAA and Southwest is still being protected by high level FAA officials that are not imposing the same standards on Southwest that other airlines have to meet.
If there is reason for the government to step in, it is to get to the bottom of why Southwest hasn't corrected so many problems - both in the public eye and behind the scenes and why the FAA has been unwilling to force Southwest to manage its operation - from a safety perspective - to the same standard as other airlines.
I strongly suspect that when you get to the bottom of those questions, it will become apparent why Southwest's operations have continued to be operated so "hot" and without the margins that would have caused them to recognize the wheels were coming off much earlier and put corrective steps in place before this disaster unfolded.
To have this meltdown of monumental proportions, one is left to wonder how the fragility of its core operational weakness was not exposed sooner.
...and how much is really wrong in the core safety operations that FAA inspectors don't feel is being addressed - but American, Delta, and the rest couldn't get by with.
Tim, I hope you had the same level of concern last June when the 'wheels were coming off' of Delta's operation and they were engaging in mass cancelations. It is sad that airlines that benefit from the lack of forced compensation for canceled flights compared to EU carriers, are unable to self regulate and are going to attract more govt oversight.
No other airline other than Southwest is the subject of FAA inspector memos saying that airline gets by with things that are of concern to FAA inspectors.
Every airline has had operational problems but none come anywhere near as high of a percentage of their operations or have lasted as long as Southwest's.
Well, big surprise, airline employees are people too. It would seem that decades of mistreatment by airline management and a literally hostile work environment caused by angry mobs disguised as passengers, all that’s needed is the final push: massive winter storm.
Air service will always be subservient to weather, how we recover and cope however is a question of human nature and not Mother Nature.
I am not sure where you are getting mistreatment from. A senior Southwest captain earns $200,000. A flight attendant that does not require a college degree earns a median salary of $52,000 with full benefits. Try earning that in other retail or hospitality businesses with union protections.
My experience Sunday/Monday in airline Hell at Midway was that there were mobs, but not angry ones. Almost everyone was remarkably civil and calm--depressed, debilitated, frustrated, anxious, etc., but not verbally or physically abusive. Most just wanted a way out of their current situations. The Southwest employees I encountered were just as tired and frustrated, some angry at the top brass, most just frustrated yet doing the best they could without the needed information.
My experience Sunday/Monday in airline Hell at Midway was that there were mobs, but not angry ones. Almost everyone was remarkably civil and calm--depressed, debilitated, frustrated, anxious, etc., but not verbally or physically abusive. Most just wanted a way out of their current situations. The Southwest employees I encountered were just as tired and frustrated, some angry at the top brass, most just frustrated yet doing the best they could without the needed information.
How about you must get canceled flights on any other airline possible. Not just, SORRY!!! You charge ridiculous prices around the holidays and offer the absolute worst service!!!! People won’t be quick to forget what they’ve been through!
Southwest needs new management A.S.A.P.!!!
Nonthey need to get out of the business and sell it to a company that doesn’t take a dump on you. Telling you your flights cancelled oh buy your bags are heading to your destination. Take out drug test and see who using. Because they have no common sense. Oh yeah that’s not common anyway !
No they need to get out of the business and sell it to a company that doesn’t take a dump on you. Telling you your flights cancelled oh by the the way your bags are heading to your destination. Take out drug test and see who using. Because they have no common sense. Oh yeah that’s not common anyway !
Time for a US261. CA$H compensation. No it is not weather. It is gross negligence from the management for scheduling more flights than what they can actually serve.
I hope you get the mental health assistance you so desperately need.
Careful, you’re making sense. They don’t like that here.
The Government do something?
Yes, more regulation on top of the massive amounts of existing regulation will certainly make things better.
And I’m sure the additional bureaucrats at the FAA, DOT and NTSB will also contribute to making things better.
People seem to forget that any government change enforcing more compensation will drive much higher costs to passengers at all levels. Would the traveling public be okay paying 30% more for their plane tickets for these rare events? Same goes for reducing schedule to build in more slack for recovery. Airlines are public companies that have only one job which you already outlined in the article.
Airlines have X number of planes and need to...
People seem to forget that any government change enforcing more compensation will drive much higher costs to passengers at all levels. Would the traveling public be okay paying 30% more for their plane tickets for these rare events? Same goes for reducing schedule to build in more slack for recovery. Airlines are public companies that have only one job which you already outlined in the article.
Airlines have X number of planes and need to generate Y profit. Y profit will always be the same and the cost of tickets will increase every step of the way.
Yet somehow Europe has incredibly low airfares despite EU261. But don't let facts stand in the way of a good anti-regulation rant.
Airlines in Europe also have to compete with a much more well-developed rail system.
Unfortunately Southwest knows all to well all their whiners and complainers that may be disappointed today will all be back on board lining up like cattle livestock as soon as they are a dollar cheaper than the next airline
Just customer noise around the edges
Happy Holidays from Southwest!
Yet, I can frequently fly in economy on a 4 hour flight for about 70 EUR (75 USD) 1 way on a full service airline with a fare that includes a hot meal, or I can fly a similar route from an airport nearby on the budget airlines for 20-30 EUR. Also, here, the fares tend to be a lower percentage of the ticket costs, as that 70 EUR ticket is about 30 EUR in...
Yet, I can frequently fly in economy on a 4 hour flight for about 70 EUR (75 USD) 1 way on a full service airline with a fare that includes a hot meal, or I can fly a similar route from an airport nearby on the budget airlines for 20-30 EUR. Also, here, the fares tend to be a lower percentage of the ticket costs, as that 70 EUR ticket is about 30 EUR in fare and 40 EUR in taxes/airport charges. So it is hard to argue that the American carriers would not be able to figure something out.
Please explain my $400 plus in fees and taxes when i fly through LHR this summer.
Ok, I’ll explain, dander.
Countries have taxes. The UK (and France) levy really big aviation taxes. These taxes do not pay for airline EU261 compensation (those are paid by private companies).
-G
@Dander - the UK has exorbitant taxes and fees, Heathrow is just specularly expensive airport. Absolutely to correlation with EC261.
There are no free lunches. If you increase costs for airlines, they have to pass it along in either increased ticket prices, fitting more seats on planes, or cutting staff pay. Most airlines operate on single digit margins so its not like they have a lot of spare cash around.
@Brian Gasser
They don’t “have to” pass it along though, that’s the point others are trying to make. They could just as easily cut the dividend. In the EU, the democracy there has decided that they have to pay compensation to their contractual counterpart (“the passenger”) if they don’t deliver on their end of the deal. This isn’t “socialist” or “revolutionary” or “anti-freedom”, it’s common decency and leads to better performance
Who's paying a dividend? This isn't AT&T Lockheed Martin, or Kinder Morgan.
You get what you pay for. Southwest sucks.
Exactly. There's a reason why Walmart is so huge, and it ain't because of their stellar service.
It's also important to add the they threatened to fire their "essential" employees (the lowest paid and the ones who endure the most grueling conditions) when they were most needed. Hopefully, some highly paid executives will learn a le$$on after all of this.
There is very little competition in most markets. With this being the largest market in the world, there should be more airlines.
Mergers and joint ventures should be blocked. The government should have never bailed these idiots out. Too big to fail doesn’t work.
That would softened the problem.
When are we going to stop the charade and acknowledge that airlines are welfare queens pretending to be self sufficient businesses? Without the massive government subsidies airports and airlines receive, the whole industry would collapse. Cities and states have to even give away money to subsidize so many flights. Airlines receive tax cuts for fuel incentives. Just to run the flight tracking system is enormous amounts of government money. All I’m saying is the amount...
When are we going to stop the charade and acknowledge that airlines are welfare queens pretending to be self sufficient businesses? Without the massive government subsidies airports and airlines receive, the whole industry would collapse. Cities and states have to even give away money to subsidize so many flights. Airlines receive tax cuts for fuel incentives. Just to run the flight tracking system is enormous amounts of government money. All I’m saying is the amount of welfare these airlines receive demands that the tax payers paying for all this are entitled to a lot more consumer protections. People aren’t angry about their tax money going towards this infrastructure. They are angry they get jack protections in return while share holders and corporate leaders make millions they normally could not of made without the subsidies.
How is that different than any other business in the US? Every industry and large corporation runs off the "incentive" machine.
For starters, most other businesses haven't gotten billions in government largesse to stay afloat.
My family held reservations on a SWA Dec 23rd flight from Denver to Chicago that was cancelled (after being delayed twice, after we were already at the airport). One of the many, many cancellations that day. Southwest rebooked us on a flight departing today (2 days later), in light of what you just pointed out above, that flight likely would have been cancelled as well. We made the decision to cancel the reservations and fly...
My family held reservations on a SWA Dec 23rd flight from Denver to Chicago that was cancelled (after being delayed twice, after we were already at the airport). One of the many, many cancellations that day. Southwest rebooked us on a flight departing today (2 days later), in light of what you just pointed out above, that flight likely would have been cancelled as well. We made the decision to cancel the reservations and fly home the next day (Christmas) on another airline. Our hotel room was at our cost, same for the other customers because this was weather related (per SWA). Southwest didn’t pay for any hotel stays for all the customers whose flights were cancelled, because they said weather was the reason for the cancellations. I believe staffing issues to be the real reason, which means the airline should have been covering the costs of their customers hotel stays - wonder what that bill would have amounted to.
Two words of advice to you for your future travels: trip insurance.
Nothin like livin overseas to help you appreciate what you got.
The American boarding system is a flawless machine compared to the rest of the world. That even goes for SW's "cattle call" boarding procedure.
The fact that flights in other countries are consistently late/delayed strictly because of inept boarding/de-boarding procedures is enough to make you go insane.
In what other countries are flights "consistently late/delayed," especially industrialized ones?! And because of boarding/de-boarding?? Where do you get your information? Please share your data, I'd love to see it.
Try the EU, love
Awesome, share your data, then. I'll wait. Seriously, I'll keep checking back on the comments section to see if you have anything more than hot air to point to.
I don’t know where you travel overseas but I travel every month overseas. Yes during Covid there has been disruptions in some cities overseas but in general i have experienced much worse in the USA. Reason is very simple. In Europe specifically, they are held accountable for their operations while in the USA the airlines are like primadonnas. In a last trip I was compensated for 600 euros. For that person that says that airlines...
I don’t know where you travel overseas but I travel every month overseas. Yes during Covid there has been disruptions in some cities overseas but in general i have experienced much worse in the USA. Reason is very simple. In Europe specifically, they are held accountable for their operations while in the USA the airlines are like primadonnas. In a last trip I was compensated for 600 euros. For that person that says that airlines have to turn x profit, yes of course but why did I pay very little for my flight but still received compensation? Because British airways is still very profitable. USA airlines are poorly managed and just down right greedy.
"Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help" is never a good sign.
Never, I agree! Let the rivers go back to being on fire, the children go back to losing their fingers, and banks go back to wrecking the economy because of reckless risk-taking*. #ghostofReagan #neverforget #THEYCANNEVERTAKEOURFREEEEDOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM #freesbf
*oh wait the last one continues to happen nowadays, but maybe if we ask them nicely enough times, they'll decide to stop
Well @ArthurSFO, I guess we''re all entitled to a little (or big in your case) meltdown sometimes. Hope you get over yours soon, and don't discover any blown gaskets in your personal recovery mission!
On a related note, these enormous and intense polar outbreaks will become more common in the future, as the natural forces which contain these severe conditions to the polar extremities are weakening as climate change progresses.
So, if you...
Well @ArthurSFO, I guess we''re all entitled to a little (or big in your case) meltdown sometimes. Hope you get over yours soon, and don't discover any blown gaskets in your personal recovery mission!
On a related note, these enormous and intense polar outbreaks will become more common in the future, as the natural forces which contain these severe conditions to the polar extremities are weakening as climate change progresses.
So, if you either do not believe that, or are happy to sit back and do nothing, then get used to it and stop moaning.
You're so right, Art. By all means, let's let the government run aviation. After all, the VA is such a stellar example of government-run healthcare.
@glenn seems like you don't understand sarcasm and hyperbole...
Yes, things will continue to worse, and yes, things need to change and airlines have shown time and time again they're incapable of leading that change themselves
@Ricport don't put words in my mouth, I never said the government should run aviation. There's a massive amount of options between absolutely no consumer protection (current state) and "running aviation" (your straw man argument). Ben made a specific...
@glenn seems like you don't understand sarcasm and hyperbole...
Yes, things will continue to worse, and yes, things need to change and airlines have shown time and time again they're incapable of leading that change themselves
@Ricport don't put words in my mouth, I never said the government should run aviation. There's a massive amount of options between absolutely no consumer protection (current state) and "running aviation" (your straw man argument). Ben made a specific suggestion where the US government can hold airlines accountable for issues within their control, like the EU does. That's not running aviation.
I’m in Hawaii and Southwest failed for 2 days to get me between islands. We’re talking about 25-minute flights. Had to radically change plans because Hawaiian was sold out on some routes and I couldn’t get a seat for all my family.
Hard to blame weather in Hawaii. Paid triple to fly tomorrow on Hawaiian because I legit can’t trust Southwest to operate an inter island flight right now.
On my way out here, which...
I’m in Hawaii and Southwest failed for 2 days to get me between islands. We’re talking about 25-minute flights. Had to radically change plans because Hawaiian was sold out on some routes and I couldn’t get a seat for all my family.
Hard to blame weather in Hawaii. Paid triple to fly tomorrow on Hawaiian because I legit can’t trust Southwest to operate an inter island flight right now.
On my way out here, which I now regard as a miracle that I made it, Southwest delayed ALL flights at my home airport because ALL of their de-ice trucks were down. I know it was cold but all the other airlines were flying, all de-iced.
Sorry to hear your experience was so terrible. I flew SWA from LAS to HNL on Christmas Eve. I feel super lucky as my flight was only delayed by about 90 minutes. The delay was due to waiting for another flight attendant and a ramp agent. I did see another SWA pilot and crew member onboard, probably to reposition to the islands.
My son and his family were scheduled to leave Sacramento and got word their flight was delayed 4.5 hours going into St. Louis which means they would miss their connection to Columbus, OH. About 2 hours before flight time they found out they were completely cancelled but no indication of points being returned, alternative plans, etc. I've only flown SW for about 20 years and yes - I've never seen it this bad. I certainly...
My son and his family were scheduled to leave Sacramento and got word their flight was delayed 4.5 hours going into St. Louis which means they would miss their connection to Columbus, OH. About 2 hours before flight time they found out they were completely cancelled but no indication of points being returned, alternative plans, etc. I've only flown SW for about 20 years and yes - I've never seen it this bad. I certainly hope they can recover to where they return to being the airline we've all come to know and love, especially for their employees.
Yes the airlines don't even allot enough time to do a proper turnaround. There is hardly any time for cleaning and proper checks. In other countries they build for delays into the turnaround time. But the greedy US airlines don't care and set their schedule on perfect conditions. If they had to compensate Passengers they would be more reasonable with the scheduling. Pete Buttigeg has tailed us. He has not done anything about this.
I mean sure. But be prepared to $100 per checked bag. Middle seats are standard. You must pay a "50% upcharge" for isle. All food services are now "European," (translation, must pay to have septic-water coffee).
Its fun and nice to fantasize about "stickin it to those greedy airlines." But the truth is, if a business's cost go up, so too will the final bill for the customer.
Generally speaking, flying between two European airports is cheaper than flying between two North American airports over a similar distance, comparing like-for-like in terms of full service or ULCC airlines. And you get lounge access on all flights, even domestic ones, if you’ve got high-ish status with the relevant alliance. And compensation if the flight is significantly delayed (or cancelled). Oh and there aren’t many shootings, generally, because there aren’t many guns, generally. But, y’know,...
Generally speaking, flying between two European airports is cheaper than flying between two North American airports over a similar distance, comparing like-for-like in terms of full service or ULCC airlines. And you get lounge access on all flights, even domestic ones, if you’ve got high-ish status with the relevant alliance. And compensation if the flight is significantly delayed (or cancelled). Oh and there aren’t many shootings, generally, because there aren’t many guns, generally. But, y’know, Land of the Free and all that. Or is it Land of the Frio now?
@Tom how is what you describe any different from the current state of affairs in the US?
Nowhere in Europe do you pay $45 for an intra-Europe checked bag on a legacy carrier, yet that's what every US carrier charges. And they charge easily more than $100 for lots of international routes.
Selecting a non-middle seat in advance has a cost if you don't have elite status on lots of airlines in the US, too.
Do I really need to say anything about the food?
But right now, they're not conducting business. Accepting payment for a service that you have no intention of providing is called fraud in most circles.
At a certain point they have to reset their network to get operations regrouped. This involves a lot of cancelations to get the planes and crew set in the right places to start the recovery post meltdown. Sorry but its not fraud.
Absolutely correct Brian. People have no idea what it takes to get jets pilots and flight attendants aligned to run the operation. Don't get me started on legalities and contractual issues for pilots and attendants. SWAs system is great when things are running smoothly which saves people money. Unfortunately when it isn't it really snowballs. It is also difficult for those trying to get things back and running. I think that is the issue here....
Absolutely correct Brian. People have no idea what it takes to get jets pilots and flight attendants aligned to run the operation. Don't get me started on legalities and contractual issues for pilots and attendants. SWAs system is great when things are running smoothly which saves people money. Unfortunately when it isn't it really snowballs. It is also difficult for those trying to get things back and running. I think that is the issue here. As far as those who are saying we don't have weather here... Reread the second sentence of my post. And for those calling for gov intervention name one thing they do right. There is very little competence to be found from that direction.
Air traffic control should be privatized like Canada.