Last week I wrote about a major development at Air France-KLM, whereby the airline group is adding seat assignment fees for many flights in business class. I wanted to take an updated look at this, as the policy has now been implemented.
In this post:
Air France & KLM expand advance seat reservation fees
Air France and KLM have started charging for advance seat assignments in business class, in what’s being referred to as the Advance Seat Reservation (ASR) scheme. This is the same policy that Air France and KLM have long had in economy.
Here are some of the details:
- This applies as of April 4, 2023, for travel as of April 13, 2023
- This only applies on long haul routes
- The seat assignment fee varies between €70 and €90 per flight
- Flying Blue Silver, Gold, and Platinum members, Business Flex passengers, and corporate customers (excluding bluebiz), are exempt from these fees; this applies to Business Light and Business Standard passengers
- Business class passengers continue to be able to select seats of their choice at no fee at the check-in window
Now that this feature is live, how exactly does it work? For long haul routes, you’ll see that during the booking process, “No free seat selection before check-in” is listed as something that’s not included with Business Standard fares.
Then when you go through the booking process, you’ll be given the option to pay to assign a seat. For a flight between Paris and Dubai, the seat assignment fee would be $85.60, and it’s the same no matter which seat you choose. Presumably the pricing here is in USD because I visited the US version of the Air France website.
You can also redeem Flying Blue miles toward seat assignment fees, though at a horrible rate. For the flight I pulled up, you’d get only 0.55 cents (in USD) per Flying Blue mile.
My take on this policy change from Air France & KLM
“I love paying extra for seat assignments in business class”… said no one ever. In fairness, this might divide people more than you’d think:
- Those who can continue to select seats in business class for free might like these changes, as they’ll have access to more seat choices closer to departure
- Those who now have to pay for seat assignments in business class will uniformly not be in favor of this
Air France and KLM are following in British Airways’ footsteps here, as the airline has been charging for business class seat assignments for years. Air France and KLM have been nicely investing in their premium experience and have been going upmarket, so it’s disappointing to see this move, which is decidedly not premium.
Presumably the logic here is as follows (I’m not saying I agree with it):
- One of the biggest competitors of Air France-KLM is doing this
- This is an opportunity to generate additional revenue
- People aren’t not going to book with Air France-KLM because of seat assignment fees, if the airline otherwise has the most compelling flight (price, schedule, product)
The reality is that a vast majority of airlines invest in their premium products in some areas, and then try to cut costs and increase revenue in other areas. This is a pretty clear example of that.
Does it leave a bad taste in a customer’s mouth to be asked to shell out for a seat assignment on a $5K ticket? Of course. But among the major European airlines, who else are you going to fly with? British Airways does the same, while Lufthansa doesn’t even have direct aisle access in business class from a vast majority of its long haul jets.
Soon enough we’ll probably see seat assignment fees at all major long haul European carriers. With Lufthansa’s new Allegris business class featuring seven different kinds of seating options, you can bet that the airline will have different price points for each seat type. SWISS will also introduce its own version of this product, known as SWISS Senses.
Bottom line
Air France and KLM have now started charging for seat assignments in business class in long haul markets. The fee is between €70 and €90 per flight, and elite members, as well as Business Flex passengers, are excluded from these changes. It goes without saying that this is a change that many people won’t like.
What do you make of Air France and KLM adding business class seat assignment fees?
Many airlines have done this for a long time like BA, LH or Swiss. I think paying for a seat assignement is a rip off whether your travel economy, premium or business. There are a few airlines that do not charge like JAL but the trend is to make you pay and pay and pay....Even food on Air France has become bad compared to a few years back and serving bamboo cutlery ads to the...
Many airlines have done this for a long time like BA, LH or Swiss. I think paying for a seat assignement is a rip off whether your travel economy, premium or business. There are a few airlines that do not charge like JAL but the trend is to make you pay and pay and pay....Even food on Air France has become bad compared to a few years back and serving bamboo cutlery ads to the slow "budget airline-trend" Airfrance is heading to. Even Premium economy is probably one of the worst experience compared to companies like JAL or Qantas.
This is utterly bullshit plain ROBBERY from airline executives who do not know anymore where to take money from customers so they can have their annual bonus at the end of the year, yes call it a job well done! Sit on your corporate long table and on your zoom calls and figure out where else you can SCAM people. I was vomiting in my living room while I read stories of governments trying to...
This is utterly bullshit plain ROBBERY from airline executives who do not know anymore where to take money from customers so they can have their annual bonus at the end of the year, yes call it a job well done! Sit on your corporate long table and on your zoom calls and figure out where else you can SCAM people. I was vomiting in my living room while I read stories of governments trying to bail out airlines during the pandemic, obviously, the airlines could not scam any more passengers for seats or bag charges when flights were going EMPTY so they were HURTING! Lucky is the FA's who have unions to support them. Operations have ben hurting with more troubles of passengers trying to bring a carry on bag inside, delaying flights and boarding process and putting the CREW in harms way for customers being angry because they can't fit their carry on bag on the overhead, the stories I know of people who simply can't afford a bag or a seat fee because they are flying to see a loved one who is going thru finance hardship or having health issues. But yes of course, I am sure ALL of your airline Executives can go to bed, and have a good night SLEEP knowing all the GOOD you do in the WORLD and tell your kids how hard you work for a living, stealing from innocent customers who work hard for their money to feed your meaningless LIFE while your cargo hold in most flights are leaving HALF EMPTY. You are all THIEVES!!!
Totally not a customer friendly measure!! After paying thousands for a international business class ticket, they ask you to pay more (90€)to choose a seat, NOT GOOD AT ALL!!
I just found out they are doing the same on internal flights for Europe business class!
€11 on one leg of a return trip from Dublin to Corsica priced at €1.7k.
Why bother flying business at all, better get a ticket for 25% the price on a direct economy flight.
One of the advantages of KLM from Latin America is using Amsterdam as a hub. I am using KLM to go from Medellin, Colombia to Bristol, UK. The routing from the KLM website is MDE-PTY (Copa)- AMS -BRS. So three legs in each direction. There will be a seat selection costs on all legs - so a total of six for the R/T. Why transit through AMS anymore?
Not seeing this on YOW-CDG as of today April 6
Business class fares on AF from Los Angeles to Paris is now over $10K, I have been flying with them for years and have never seen such high fares. I guess they are trying to make up for the losses during Covid.
Outrageous move...nickeling and diming business class seats is not customer friendly...
Bottom line is, I'm not booking a cabin that has a bad seat. End of. No reason for me to fly KLM or AF out of western Europe. If I am flying East I have plenty of great choices. Flying West I'm afraid still is not going to be AF or KLM. As regards overall ticket price, for me it is the principle that 1. I am being charged for seat selection after paying full...
Bottom line is, I'm not booking a cabin that has a bad seat. End of. No reason for me to fly KLM or AF out of western Europe. If I am flying East I have plenty of great choices. Flying West I'm afraid still is not going to be AF or KLM. As regards overall ticket price, for me it is the principle that 1. I am being charged for seat selection after paying full J fare and also that by implication, if I don't pay, I'm going to get a garbage KLM of AF seat, I used to fly AF in Y and J every single week, even 7 years ago their nickleand diming was a problem and I stopped flying them totally. Now it is getting to be a joke from reading this. Look at BA, pre Covid their J fares to a lot of medium long haul destinations eas half of QR or EY etc. Yet they charged a seat selection fee. I never had to pay due to BAEC status but it always amazed me that an airline with such a poor product they could only earn a fraction of their competitors rates with should feel in a position to levy a seat selection fee. Simple to see that KLM, AF and BA to some extent are milking a captive audience. Some people just like routine and will fly AF from CDG for all their flights, same as people in London flying BA from LHR. Whereas I use BA from LGR where it works for me but vast majority of the time I'll use carrier of the destination of it is North America or Asia. Never felt the need to return to AF or KLM and never will.
Coming from someone based in Paris, while I see this fee as annoying it ultimately doesn't impact me given that the fee doesn't apply for people with status. And I imagine most of the people flying these cabins on paid fares aren't impacted either--it doesn't take much to get Silver status, really only 2 roundtrip long haul business class trips a year. Not to mention, flying AF consistently is still going to be better than...
Coming from someone based in Paris, while I see this fee as annoying it ultimately doesn't impact me given that the fee doesn't apply for people with status. And I imagine most of the people flying these cabins on paid fares aren't impacted either--it doesn't take much to get Silver status, really only 2 roundtrip long haul business class trips a year. Not to mention, flying AF consistently is still going to be better than picking different airlines for each flight and ending up with a smattering of miles across different airlines/alliances.
All that said, I agree that this nickel and diming is annoying, it just mainly impacts people on award tickets and non-frequent flyers, who frankly aren't the ones typically flying in paid J anyway.
I don't like paying more for nothing, but I can see value in this. I'm no longer a true road warrior, but I used to fly long haul international business regularly. If I booked last minute I would usually be faced will a selection of only poor seats. If I had flexibility I would pick a flight (often a BA 787) that had a window seat with direct aisle access (on the BA 787 it...
I don't like paying more for nothing, but I can see value in this. I'm no longer a true road warrior, but I used to fly long haul international business regularly. If I booked last minute I would usually be faced will a selection of only poor seats. If I had flexibility I would pick a flight (often a BA 787) that had a window seat with direct aisle access (on the BA 787 it was the last row in each business cabin) so that no one would have to climb over me and I wouldn't need to climb over someone else. That seat had huge value to me, so I would alter my schedule to get it. If a small (I know there is disagreement here) fee would allow me to get my desired seat on a larger number of flight options, that's good.
Now that I travel primarily for leisure, and with a family of four, this will hurt more for sure. But we're not going to change our behavior.
This madness affects award tickets?
Mental reminder...NEVER buy an KLM and AF ticket
Nice to know what this is.
Stinks
I just tried to change a seat on a previously purchased award ticket for July 2023 from Nairobi to Chicago and they tried to charge me this fee for each of the two segments. NBO to AMS and AMS to ORD. So I think “to and from the USA” is not exempt.
I left my seats alone…although if I called them they would probably let me change them for free.
I think this actually makes sense. When advance seat assignments are free, people who book late inevitably get the least desirable seats. Yet those people probably paid higher airfares than the people who book in advance. This charge for advance seat assignments will result in some choice seats being made available to people who do not book in advance. That seems fair.
Just booked AF from LAX to CDG and the fee was charged
Pure money grab!
It’s ridiculous to nickel and dime premium passengers who are already paying for that business class seat. It’s a very low class move on their part. Outright tacky!
The question for them would be what happens if they price a flight for $3000 and say BA or similar price their tix with no seat fee for $3200. Would people abandoned their principal for the overall savings. And will flying blue make this fee as least transparent as possible where people book their flight and not realize they haven't selected a seat until it's too late ie they already paid for the flight.
well, the BA ticket likely has a stopover at LHR so the passenger would see a substantial cost in the way of a tax that is collected from passengers who fly on spendy tickets. Lucky recently wrote about this.
(so yeah, this is crappy nonsense, but they get you coming and going...)
I'm seeing fees to select (technically, change) seats on both a North American Route, and a short haul route, which supposedly shouldn't have fees.
Specifically, €85 on DEN-CDG, and €85 on CDG-CPH.
I previously selected seats on these flights, so those are the prices to change to new seats.
KLM just changed from my flight from direct to having a connection, downgraded the plane to 2-2-2 and wants to charge me $85 to reserve a seat when I already had one selected on my original, direct 1-2-1 flight that didn't require me to sleep next to a stranger? Really an amazing premium experience so far.
This is absurd and just another reason to loath the airline industry. (and no doubt will become the standard in the USA as well) Just charge the extra $100 per seat that no one will notice rather advertising at every step of the process the contempt you have for your customers.
Please don’t hate me , but $5000 usd is no longer a lot of money when talking about long haul business class tickets in todays money .
I don't LIKE these types of fees, but I can accept them. As someone who works in pricing, I recognize that seat reservations have value to the customer. Do enough people value them enough to pay, even after paying thousands for the seat? We will see but I would imagine they will. After you pay $2500 for a business class seat, do you suddenly become price sensitive over another $85? I doubt it, especially if...
I don't LIKE these types of fees, but I can accept them. As someone who works in pricing, I recognize that seat reservations have value to the customer. Do enough people value them enough to pay, even after paying thousands for the seat? We will see but I would imagine they will. After you pay $2500 for a business class seat, do you suddenly become price sensitive over another $85? I doubt it, especially if a lot of those folks on paying via expense account and the employer will cover the fee.
That being said, in my rare long-haul business class flights, seat reservations are actually less valuable to me than picking my seat in economy. While there may be a few business class seats that are slightly better than others - away from the lav, truly next to the window versus next to the aisle with a shelf between you and the window, etc., - all business class seats are substantially similar. You don't have to worry about showing up the day of the flight and getting stuck in a middle seat. If you are traveling with someone and want to sit together, picking your seats might be worth the fee. However, I remember one occasion when my now-wife and we did not get a seat assignment until we were at the airport. We were on opposite sides of the cabin. It was no big deal as she slept most of the overnight flight. Also, even while flying in seats next to each other and not in a suite-type arrangement, we usually are reading or watching a movie and not talking the entire time. Once on American, though we were in an adjacent seat in the middle, even with the divider down, to talk would have been like talking halfway across the cabin so we kind of just did our own thing on that flight.
So I am not sure I would be willing to pay nearly $100 and just take what I can get as soon as they become free. But in economy? I will pay for a seat assignment every single time to avoid what can be a truly bad seat for many hours.
You're correct in the sense that I wouldn't lose sleep or stress over $85. However, I don't like doing business with someone I feel is sleazy or in any way dishonest or trying to squeeze pennies from me even though it's only pennies. I would never buy a cup of coffee from a vendor like that. I have gone and attempted to book hotels knowing that they have resort fees though they are never my...
You're correct in the sense that I wouldn't lose sleep or stress over $85. However, I don't like doing business with someone I feel is sleazy or in any way dishonest or trying to squeeze pennies from me even though it's only pennies. I would never buy a cup of coffee from a vendor like that. I have gone and attempted to book hotels knowing that they have resort fees though they are never my first choice. And there are those hotels who have additional $10 fees here and there that are not obvious until you see the bill break down. Those instances I would cancel the booking. I feel the same here. It's all for flying blue. There is no regard to the customer and their attitude is so what, we can do we're doing it. All fine and good but I have choices too.
I would NEVER buy a ticket to an airline that take advantage of something so low like charge you for a business class ticket. KLM and AF are banned for me and family.
I wish all this lind of arilines bankruptcy. The world would be better without them and their brains
In addition from taking away any premium experience feel at the time of booking, it may impact travelers who travel for work. My company policy does not allow to reimburse seat reservation fees.
So my options would be to risk a seat that I do not like or to pay out of my own pocket - or to choose an airline which does not charge for seat reservations.
Corporate and flying blue elite are exempt. It depends on your company. So if you work for Amazon but don’t have a flying blue account you don’t pay, provided it’s booked via the corporate office as opposed to a private trip
That's even worse. Why are regular customers subsidizing corporate customers.
They always have done. Nothing new
Regular = frequent flyer elites who are exempt. Regular is not someone who flies once a year.
Flying Blue elite plus, ultimate, club 2000 and corporates are the most important revenue earners and make up the bulk of seats at the front. In some flights it maybe 75-90% and they don’t pay a fee.
You also realise that Emirates charges ancillary fees, and you can’t prebook...
They always have done. Nothing new
Regular = frequent flyer elites who are exempt. Regular is not someone who flies once a year.
Flying Blue elite plus, ultimate, club 2000 and corporates are the most important revenue earners and make up the bulk of seats at the front. In some flights it maybe 75-90% and they don’t pay a fee.
You also realise that Emirates charges ancillary fees, and you can’t prebook seats when travelling on a special business class fare until 48 hrs prior to departure.
Some special promo business rates are lower than flex economy.
I'm being asked to pay to select a seat from Paris to Ottawa. Looks like North America isnt excluded after all? Or perhaps its only the United States
It’s because delta don’t charge yet which complicates things to and from the USA
That said, don’t virgin Atlantic charge ?
VS does not charge for TATL seats. I don't know about their other routes.
Really a premium experience having to pay a few bucks for every single little thing. WTF?
I don't think the "premiumness" of the product matters as pricing becomes disaggregated. We have heard reports of BMW charging to enable features in their cars and that is one of the most premium non-exotic car brands there is.
And people will still hate on US airlines. At least here in the US there’s no business class seat selection fees, there’s not even economy seat selection fees unless you want more legroom. What a disgrace European airlines are! This would never fly in the US!
Yes but you get a poor product in comparison. US domestic first class is nothing special unless it’s a wide bodied trans continental or Hawaii. And you often don’t even get a meal or free lounge access.
I agree that domestic first pales compares to international, but the thing I always wonder: does it really matter on a two-hour flight from New York to somewhere? I mean, do I really need a meal on such a short flight? I don't even stop for a snack on many two-hour road trips. I often wonder if people have unreasonable demands out of domestic first when the flight is relatively short.
That may be true about US domestic "first class" (business), but have you tried flying intra-European "business class". Spoiler alert: it totally sucks. Makes even first on an RJ look luxurious. So, no, European airlines are not so superior over their American counterparts. Each has issues.
What are you talking about @zoey. People who paid basic economy have to pay to select seats. That's why families get upset that mommy can't sit next to little timmy. And even if you're in regular economy and you wanted an economy seat near the front that's preferred economy and you have to pay for that. Pretty much everyone besides southwest does that
Its very difficult to have any loyalty to any specific Airline Brand now. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth when you know that the Airline is just price gouging you, because it CAN. I don't like being ripped off and that is exactly how it feels. Bad move on KLM/Air France brand. A little bit more profit for a lot less respect!
This shows how bad airlines are KLM and AF.
From now on my last option to flight in Europe.
They will loose clients for this shitty decision
I've traveled across the pond many, many times. This past year I wanted to try Swiss, the worst, and Lufthansa. Unless these airlines including KLM,AF, charge less for the same flight as UA, AA, & DL , the best value is to fly on a US carrier. Superior service, product, seats in BC are
1-2-1 as opposed to 2-2-2 or even higher on LH 747's... and I find the f/a's more friendlier. It's GREED...
I've traveled across the pond many, many times. This past year I wanted to try Swiss, the worst, and Lufthansa. Unless these airlines including KLM,AF, charge less for the same flight as UA, AA, & DL , the best value is to fly on a US carrier. Superior service, product, seats in BC are
1-2-1 as opposed to 2-2-2 or even higher on LH 747's... and I find the f/a's more friendlier. It's GREED to charge a fee to select a seat at time of purchase in business class!!! Period!!
A biz class ticket costs at least 4 times the economy ticket and normally runs in multiple thousands. If Air France/KLM really care about an extra 90€, adding it to the fare makes little difference to the buyer. But separating that fee as an additional charge is a penny wise and pound foolish measure and tarnish the image of the airlines.
You have to see this from a (very) frequent flyer point of view. If you are not Flying Blue or FB Silver and flying business, then this means you do this only once a year. Gold, Platinum, and Ultimate are not going to take it kindly if the best seats are picked by Silver when they fly long haul twice or thrice monthly and get poorer choices.
Gold is next to have to pay for it. Those brand new 777-300ER bulk seats are going nowhere but to Platinum and Ultimate.
It’s always first come first served anyhow, irrespective of status.
As everyone as said, these airlines area taking those who wish to fly 1st class badly and taking everyone who wish to traval in luxary with NO respect. They all are going to loss those who who been been travaling with them.
Incredible! For more and more less services they are trying to reap of the money from you!
I will never pay extra!
Hope soon other airlines like qatar, emirates etc will move to make inter Europe flights.
In the first place they can’t operate within Europe. Moreover emirates etc all charge ancillary fees. They make so much money and yet they still charge ! Their excess baggage fees paid on departure are also around 4 x more than European carriers.
Are you aware than on emirates you can only select your seat within 48 hrs of departure when on a business special fare? Of course not.
I remember the reaction when British Airways introduced charges in business class & although airlines think/know that this is actually a great revenue addition it's also showing that they couldn't care less about their customers. It's an appalling attitude when passengers are just getting back in to travel again. Business class fares are now close to what first class were so it's not a cheap ticket. To then charge for a specific seat just smacks of utter greed
And yet the flights are all full, despite fees
It is not only this fee, many different fees are add to the total ticket price at KLM the last 2 years. Even ticket changing fees are Almost double. I pay already more because of a flex ticket, pay extra for my seat, change my return flight always because of my work which bring my total at the end Almost double also because of extra dutch goverment enviromental taxes. My reason for taking klm only...
It is not only this fee, many different fees are add to the total ticket price at KLM the last 2 years. Even ticket changing fees are Almost double. I pay already more because of a flex ticket, pay extra for my seat, change my return flight always because of my work which bring my total at the end Almost double also because of extra dutch goverment enviromental taxes. My reason for taking klm only is the availability of many direct flights. But i m still thinking about leaving them. After the covid era i was thinking these Airlines are charging more because to cover the losses.
That is ok, but it becomes more and more.
Forget about it.....seriously with the crisis right now?
Air France has had a bad reputation for decades now. It is to their disadvantage to up charge seat selection by customers. Everything ALL these airlines are doing to nickel & dime customers is only going to lose them revenue in the long run. I am hoping people stop flying altogether except for totally necessary needs so that ALL airlines can learn a stiff lesson. They squeeze us in like sardines in economy & coach...
Air France has had a bad reputation for decades now. It is to their disadvantage to up charge seat selection by customers. Everything ALL these airlines are doing to nickel & dime customers is only going to lose them revenue in the long run. I am hoping people stop flying altogether except for totally necessary needs so that ALL airlines can learn a stiff lesson. They squeeze us in like sardines in economy & coach & they also want to rob us of more money so that after a flight to & from anywhere, we're too broke to enjoy the trip. Maybe if their CEO's salaries weren't so dang high, they could afford to lower the price of an airline ticket! This goes for all airlines!!!
Americans always moaning. It has a much better reputation than years ago. CDG is much improved. No strikes for years. And genuine service , not fake like most US companies. Surprised US staff don’t expect tips all the time.
Some of the worst business class BA/AF/KLM and they have the audacity to charge for a business class seat request. These old legacy airlines are filing badly, i avoid like the plague.
I won't be using either airline in the future.
I just flew AF business NYC to Paris round-trip . It was the worst business class I have flown.
Boeing 777-300, had to be old planes, the laminate that they use on their seating was pulling off. The divider between our 2 center seats had to be wrestled out by the attendant.
The food service was basic. Their alcoholic beverage choice is severely limited.
I would never fly them again and it would take some big FRENCH BALLS to charge more to choose my seat.
I first encountered this on British Airways and have avoided them since for that very reason.
Have flown both AF & KLM however not in biz class. Service was mediocre at best Asking for seat fees on biz class tantamount to them saying "you're already paying $5-10k what's another 140-180euros". Just a cash grab nothing else. Singapore Airlines biz class yes, but not these 2 Airlines.
Is there a reason to be of loyal membership except basic and have an amex card with minimum so that you get checked bag free?
All the seat upgrades etc are speculation as too many compete for few seats.
If you are crazy about lounge access, get a right card.
But for me I am tempted to stop flying skyteam. May consider southwest or united.
The ticket prices are with skyteam.are horrendous and 50% more on average than other airlines too
Terrible and cheap move !!
Greedy move !!
Time to consider ONE WORLD or Middle East airlines .
No not going to do this ever,I will fly someone else how absurd this cash grabbing scheme is.Good luck with this Air France/KLM see ya!
An absolute kick in the proverbial nuts.
You are already charging a premium for your product then saying by the way, your seat is extra.
Kim airfrance you are having a laugh.
Yes BA charge you but I have accepted their pretence as a premium airline.
You will be heading in the same direction soon.
This is pure greed. We, as the flying public let airlines get away with these ridiculous prices. Bags fees, pick a seat fee, early boarding. Ext, ext ext. I understand we want and have to travel. If we boycott 1 airline at a time, I'd bet anything the other airlines will see whats going on and drop some of these ridiculous prices. All we have to do is boycott 1 airline at a time. Always...
This is pure greed. We, as the flying public let airlines get away with these ridiculous prices. Bags fees, pick a seat fee, early boarding. Ext, ext ext. I understand we want and have to travel. If we boycott 1 airline at a time, I'd bet anything the other airlines will see whats going on and drop some of these ridiculous prices. All we have to do is boycott 1 airline at a time. Always remember this: STRENGTH COMES IN NUMBER. I am just 1 person. A group of people has more influence of power than 1 person. So let's stop complaining and take action. Keep in mind, When an airline takes off with empty seats, thats revenue they will never get back.
Another moronic statement about boycotting. You know it won’t happen
You do realise that all the elites and corporates won’t need to pay. They make up the greatest portion of revenue.
why don't they just fold the 100 dollars into the price of the ticket? if you're paying $5000, you wouldn't really balk at $5100. This made sense in eco, but it's so easy to bundle the fee in there. Airlines are turning into ticketmaster
This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Already overpaying for a Business class seat and now this? Maybe time to look for another airline
This is absolutely ridiculous and shows no respect for those buying high priced tickets. Perhaps they want to grab more money from those using miles instead of currency on seats upfront, but that's still no excuse. What a disgrace.
Any idea how they will handle families or parties of 2+? I assume that they will keep them together at least?! If I made it into business with points, where I sit is less important for me. However, not if it means they would scatter spouse and children across the cabin... any idea how they will handle this in the new system?
Is this going to put people off booking with these airlines? Absolutely.
I'm looking at flights to US next year and BA prices are competitive but not when you factor in seat fees. Adding another €280 to €360 for return flights per couple will do the same for these airlines.
Another reason to stick with United for my monthly AMS-ORD flights in business (in addition to KLM's awful website)
That's a horrible move. Especially that Air France staff is on never ending strike and Schiphol Airport is a mess. I would definitely avoid them like a plague.
Contrary the what you say Air France staff haven’t been in strike for years. Klm on the other hand had several incidents and schiphol was a disaster once travel increased. It barely affected CDG. Lufthansa on the other hand …
Well time to change Airliners.
FF is not a perk it’s just a number now.
Except that it IS explicitly a perk here, since FFs don’t pay…?
I’m both OWE and Flying Blue Platinum, so won’t have to pay for seat assignments on any of these airlines. Don’t you think that’s a major benefit to me, for being a FF — and means I get a better choice of seats?
This policy strikes me as incredibly FF-friendly…
Just plain stealing your money, same as the fuel surcharges, they add them asap, but do they disappear, nope. Always check alternatives, am UK based so always compare with VS or ME3. I am only a tiny number, but BA has lost a lot of my business due to their seat charging. I fly long haul 3/4 times per annum, J class and am retired.
I’m all for the fee. Airlines sell tickets starting at lower fare first. The top payers are those purchase tickets toward the departure date. These top payers normally get the choices of the worst seats. Business travelers generally don’t know their schedule until the last minute and airlines know it. Airlines makes more money out of business travelers than vacationers. It is only fair to charge more for “preferred seats”.
Terrible move. The reason I avoid British airways is because of the seat fees in business class. Now, this?
If you can afford to travel this manner, you can cough up these fees. Don't be so selfish.
A good part of achieving the goal of being able to afford things, is learning not to throw money away. Can does not equal should.
Let's face it, this seat selection fee (in any cabin) has become a right racket. I've seen some pretty interesting variable pricing for seat selection in economy too. Not only where you sit (window Vs middle etc) but even varying by number of days prior to departure. And as someone else pointed out I've noticed phantom blocking to coerce you into wanting to buy up to secure a better seat (window, further forward etc).
And...
Let's face it, this seat selection fee (in any cabin) has become a right racket. I've seen some pretty interesting variable pricing for seat selection in economy too. Not only where you sit (window Vs middle etc) but even varying by number of days prior to departure. And as someone else pointed out I've noticed phantom blocking to coerce you into wanting to buy up to secure a better seat (window, further forward etc).
And let's not forget that this fee is per person and each way. If you are a party of 4 traveling you're on the hook for over €500 in extra fees if you want to pick where you sit rather than chance it to 24h before and be split across the cabin.
Conversely, increasing numbers of airlines are starting to provide WiFi for free or at the very least messaging. And satellite based WiFi does actually cost the airline something. Just like extra luggage costs something (extra weight = extra fuel burn etc). Meanwhile the seats are there regardless and it's simply a way to extract more revenue.
I always thought it was pretty poor charging for WiFi in business to cross the pond (when some carriers don't even charge in economy) after forking out 4 figures to fly it the least they could do is waive the $20ish fee or give you a few hours complimentary... I mean the word business is in the title (not that this means anything these days).
it's actually per flight, not per way. So a roundtrip with one connection for 4 would be 16x this fee (~1300eur)
We don't print money
Even though 90 euros is small compared to a 3000 euro flight, for me it's the principle of not doing business with companies doing bs. Even if it's $10 it's a no for me. If you don't stop them at the small stuff you're giving them the ok for much mightier bs. They are just testing the water with this fee.
Other than they are actually making it free for elite flyers. Who, don't you think, deserve to have first rights to the best seats? Especially over redemptions and heavily discounted J fares that appeal to those who fly twice a year at most? They are not FORCING YOU to pay this. You are welcome to wait until online check-in. Right?
The next time I fly to Europe I'll choose the carries that doesn't nickel and dime me ($!00.0) !! Frankly there is little to choose between the carriers, and BA has the
outrageous extra charges too.
"People aren’t not going to book with Air France-KLM because of seat assignment fees, if the airline otherwise has the most compelling flight (price, schedule, product)": later this year, I will purchase 2 CDG-IST BC tickets and was hesitating between AF (lower fares, EC seats with an open one next to you) and THY (actual BC seats, access to the THY IST BC lounge and its very good food offering). My choice is now made...
"People aren’t not going to book with Air France-KLM because of seat assignment fees, if the airline otherwise has the most compelling flight (price, schedule, product)": later this year, I will purchase 2 CDG-IST BC tickets and was hesitating between AF (lower fares, EC seats with an open one next to you) and THY (actual BC seats, access to the THY IST BC lounge and its very good food offering). My choice is now made as I want to be sitting next to the person, that I am traveling with, and dislike those extra charges. I'll just have to diet a few days before going to the BC THY lounge in IST.
Sounds like your decision was already made. Of course choose, TK. Why choose otherwise? It's a much better product on intra Europe flights and with better catering. I doubt that new seating fees for non elites would have (or should have) impacted your choice. TK is a better product on this routing despite those fees. I would never have even considered AF.
We’ve just started flying business with Air France. We live in France and want to support the national airline. We’re currently in Martinique (having flown business) with trips books to Budapest. Would certainly look at other airlines if they start charging extra to book a seat on a matter of principle.
I'm laughing at all the comments of people complaining about a 60 Euro fee to reserve a seat in J that is, clearly, meant to protect the integrity of the best seats being for AF or SkyTeam Elite level flyers. My word people, really?
This is especially hilarious because I would wager that 80% of the people complaining here would never actually pay for J on AF. So, what they really want is to...
I'm laughing at all the comments of people complaining about a 60 Euro fee to reserve a seat in J that is, clearly, meant to protect the integrity of the best seats being for AF or SkyTeam Elite level flyers. My word people, really?
This is especially hilarious because I would wager that 80% of the people complaining here would never actually pay for J on AF. So, what they really want is to get a points based ticket AND be placed at the same level of those that spend significant amounts each year in revenue seats. This is hardly like a resort fee, as some have compared, this is protecting the best seats for its most loyal customers AND assuring that if you want it and don't have elite status you can pay a small fee that is more than reasonable to reserve it prior to online check-in.
I am all for transparency and I hate resort fees, etc. But this seems a fair and equitable system.
Really, I'm wondering if this is a site primarily for millennials and is more about the need for free (as they often believe in) and entitled rather than reasonable and fair. FYI, Santa Claus is not real. Or perhaps Santa Claus is, and AF is giving back to those who are good, rather than entitled naughty people who think a redemption (and never flying AF) puts them on the same level as a loyal client who spends greatly with them each year. I redeem with may carriers off my loyalty wheelhouse and status level, with that I expect to be lower on the pole of love. In those cases I am grateful for any seat in J and just hitch the ride.
Really. people, grow up.
Tl;dr
@ Willy ts;dr
Thanks Stuart. I agree.
Seems silly, like a resort fee. Just raise the ticket price and stopping punching us in the nuts, we'll still fly. We're headed to Europe later this year and passed on nonstops flown by United and Lufthansa because they are extremely disappointing (UA Polaris) or underwhelming (Lufthansa). We'd rather fly Air France business with a connection than a nonstop United or Lufthansa business class flight.
How is it a resort fee? You don't have to pay it. Resort fees are mandatory. This is not. Just reserve your seat at check-in or pay a small fee before. Pretty simple.
And let me guess, you are redeeming miles. And still expect the same as those who have loyalty status and actually spend money with AF or SkyTeam. Hmm.
No they aren't. Resort fees are often negotiable, but they know 99% of people won't even try.
But we get it, you want to shill for corporations nickeling & diming higher value customers. That's your choice. Others choose not to be subject to such.
Aren't they nickeling and diming lower value customers, since the only ones who have to pay this fee are the ones that aren't flying regularly and spending lots of money with AF/KLM?
@concordeboy. Says a person who calls himself, “Concorde boy” Lol!
It’s like a resort fee in that it’s added on after you’ve booked, as opposed to included in the price.
Funny, the assumptions that petty people make… You guessed wrong Stevie. We save up and pay for our tickets with real money. Find someone else to troll.
Wouldn't the availability of miles for redemption presumably be an indication of one's loyalty? The miles didn't just land in my lap.
Won't take 'm long to enhance this scheme. Soon it will be 25% off for Silver and 50% off for Gold members. Just wait for it.
You spelled "scheme" incorrectly. It is spelled scam. Must be the same consulting company that created Resort Fees.
This is simply greed on the part of the airlines. When someone is paying the often exorbitant fares for business class, at the very least they should be able to select their seats at no charge. Let’s hope this despicable plan disappears before it begins.
I am an BA Executive Club member, since I start to book my Club World seats I never paid any fees. Why name an airline that has nothing to do with all this?
This is exactly what happens when the majority of society is made up of the worthless lazy pieces of crap that it is today. If people had any sense they would stop booking with these scumbag airlines until their stopped the nonsense. If they could be bothered to use that lump of tissue between their ears, they would stop booking with airlines that have frequent flyer programs as well as all they do is reward...
This is exactly what happens when the majority of society is made up of the worthless lazy pieces of crap that it is today. If people had any sense they would stop booking with these scumbag airlines until their stopped the nonsense. If they could be bothered to use that lump of tissue between their ears, they would stop booking with airlines that have frequent flyer programs as well as all they do is reward worthless scum and cost those that pay their way more money. If you purchase an airline ticket, guess who is paying for that entitled prick to sit up front with points....YOU! Unfortunately though with society being made up primarily of idiots, they can't be bothered to spend $100 today to save themselves $10,000 in future....so the airlines get away with it.
Are you ok?
#1. I disagree. I will be going out of my way not to book business with them if there’s a seat selection fee involved. Sorry, my business is valued elsewhere. People might book and not realize until it’s too late they have to cough up more for the same thing (a seat) or have too much money to care. But that’s not most people.
#2. I’ve flown with BA in business. Did not pay...
#1. I disagree. I will be going out of my way not to book business with them if there’s a seat selection fee involved. Sorry, my business is valued elsewhere. People might book and not realize until it’s too late they have to cough up more for the same thing (a seat) or have too much money to care. But that’s not most people.
#2. I’ve flown with BA in business. Did not pay to preselect seats. B788 with 35J seats had about 7 open seats each way. 1 day and 1 hour before flight.
Then magically when the 24 hour window opened up (again both times in both directions) the seat map became WIDE OPEN and I counted maybe 18/35 seats taken at departure once in the sky.
Phantom blocking of seats to look like there’s very few seats available to entice customers to poney up so they can get the seats they want, or bare minimum seats together when not travelling alone. Disgusting.
A$$hole move AF. What’s next? Gotta pay up if you plan to eat on board?
I don’t fly in business expecting basic economy service or treatment . Byeeeee
"This will apply on long haul routes, though not initially to & from North America (presumably due to the joint venture with Delta, which would complicate matters)"
@Ben - where did you get that? It's not mentioned in the article you linked, at all.
If they need/want the $/EUR so bad, why not make the fees only for those on the cheapest or award level tickets and if you have a mid-level or higher ticket make it included. Kind of a Basic Business Class feature.
Still waiting af reply to terrible journey , m/chester uk to reunion island jan 2023
Seats terrible , food , none drink
Breakfast hot roll and mustard !!!
This is prem econ
The Shame! Imagine such a Premium economy product! Honestly, it's premium ECONOMY...did you expect more? Dear god, your roll was hot, that's more than most, lol.
What happens if after one pays the seat reservation fee, the airline, for operational or other reasons, removes you and assigns another seat? Refund or tough luck?
If it’s going to be anything like BA policy if for operational reasons they change your selected “paid for” seat they will try and find you the best alternative like window for window, aisle for aisle. If they can’t accommodate you then you have to apply and get a full refund.
Bad trend here but it was bound to happen.
Lufthansa said a few weeks ago that the only free seats on their new Allegris programm will be the aisle seat. The rest of them will cost a reservation cost. BA has been getting away with it that no one complaints these days.
Awful development for those that rarely fly with AF/KL and those will probably just complain once and that's it. The elites would make more noise if they had to pay.
Hi,
I think at the end of the day, the airlines have a few things going for them.. as noted, it’s becoming “the norm” .. so if you dislike the fee, there’s fewer and fewer options for airlines that don’t charge a seat fee … so the airlines have that going for them.
Also, I think it’s does two things for them simultaneously— it shows their elites better seat choices AND monetizes the ability to...
Hi,
I think at the end of the day, the airlines have a few things going for them.. as noted, it’s becoming “the norm” .. so if you dislike the fee, there’s fewer and fewer options for airlines that don’t charge a seat fee … so the airlines have that going for them.
Also, I think it’s does two things for them simultaneously— it shows their elites better seat choices AND monetizes the ability to choose early on, from those that aren’t elites (or otherwise exempt) .. true, not all elites are their best (defined as most revenue generating) but i suspect that their revenue management and planning unit has done the metrics here to show its benefit to elites over non-elites and the revenue that it impacts going forward.
I absolutely agree from a passengers point of view, this is a big negative.. no argument there.. but from the airlines perspective, I think it makes great financial sense and they get a minor “win” to show to their elites… This is a move that i think others should copy if they’re direct competitors to KLM as I see little downside as J class seat fees become more commonplace.
Nope. If I am paying 5-10k for a business class seat on a long haul flight, being nickle and dimed for a seat assignment is a big load of poo. I can understand in coach and coach plus, but for anything above that, advance seat assignment should be included in the price that's already higher than the nose on a giraffe! 70-90 £ PER FLIGHT SEGMENT is outrageous!
I just bail on these rip-off EU carriers and fly United Polaris. Just reserved my seats for free.
Downside is you're flying UA. Pay extra or fly Polaris? Screwed either way...
Which is fine until your flight is disrupted. Then see if the free insurance you get from EU261 offsets the few bucks you saved on seat assignment fees. And, if your name is not Dr Dao, maybe United is a great company to give your business to.
Catering to frequent flyers seems like the right thing to do. But, every elite frequent flyer was once a first timer. If that were me, and the basic fare in business class were the same, I would pick the airline without the seat fee. The offending airline would never get the chance to earn my loyalty.
In case you want to know, I have been Platinum or 1K on United for over a decade...
Catering to frequent flyers seems like the right thing to do. But, every elite frequent flyer was once a first timer. If that were me, and the basic fare in business class were the same, I would pick the airline without the seat fee. The offending airline would never get the chance to earn my loyalty.
In case you want to know, I have been Platinum or 1K on United for over a decade and fly only first or business class. However, I would have flown someone else in the first place if they had tried to nickle and dime me.
I used to like travelling on the KLM 747 for the upper deck and bubble in business, and it was great value in economy comfort seats near the front too. Also used to enjoy Air France on their quad jets especially the 747 and a380, I feel they have all lost their sparkle without the quad jets. Although a superior hard product now on paper, I just find it so bland now and both lacking their once unique quirks.
Makes it worse for occasional AF/KLM J flyers but better for regular AF/KLM J flyers, which is the point, those flyers are the ones that are most important to AF/KLM and bring in the most profits, so AF/KLM has to cater to them. One-time cash flyers and occasional award ticket flyers (particularly ones who never pay a substantial amount of cash to AF/KLM for fares) might think they're just the same as any other J...
Makes it worse for occasional AF/KLM J flyers but better for regular AF/KLM J flyers, which is the point, those flyers are the ones that are most important to AF/KLM and bring in the most profits, so AF/KLM has to cater to them. One-time cash flyers and occasional award ticket flyers (particularly ones who never pay a substantial amount of cash to AF/KLM for fares) might think they're just the same as any other J passengers, but airlines most certainly do not, those people will always be at the back of the line relative to regular J flyers who spend many tens of thousands of euros a year on AF/KLM
"...those flyers are the ones that are most important to AF/KLM and bring in the most profits..."
Not necessarily.
Those are the ones who may fly the most, but that doesn't always mean highest profit. Look to United Global Services or American Concierge Key to see how profitability recognition works.
UA GS and AA ConciergeKey members are primarily "regular UA / AA J flyers" (and F as well for AA, though that is going away soon) so that aligns pretty well with "regular AF/KLM J flyers" as mentioned in my original post. Plus, you don't even need to hit the equivalent of those status levels here, you just have to have status with AF/KLM, which means the only people who don't get free seat selection are those spending little to no cash on fares on AF/KLM
"...the only people who don't get free seat selection are those spending little to no cash on fares on AF/KLM."
That is not always the case, and many time it is NOT the case for how FB awards status. Many people spend a LOT of money on AF/KL and do NOT have status due to how status is earned.
There may be some people who fly a fair bit and don't have even Flying Blue Silver status, but it would be difficult for large numbers of people to spend lots of money on AF/KLM and not have at least Flying Blue Silver. Looking at their table, it would only take 2 roundtrip J flights per year from CDG to JFK to make Silver, and even 2 roundtrips on a shorter J flight like CDG-YUL...
There may be some people who fly a fair bit and don't have even Flying Blue Silver status, but it would be difficult for large numbers of people to spend lots of money on AF/KLM and not have at least Flying Blue Silver. Looking at their table, it would only take 2 roundtrip J flights per year from CDG to JFK to make Silver, and even 2 roundtrips on a shorter J flight like CDG-YUL would get you to 96 out of the required 100 XP, which can be easily topped up by donating 8k miles through their carbon offset program. What about if you fly to other continents? CDG to ABJ, one of their most important Africa routes, is also 48XP per roundtrip in J. CDG to MEX or GRU in Latam would only require 3 segments in J. CDG-DXB is similarly 48XP per round trip. The longest flights to Asia would also be 3 segments in J to hit Silver. You could only plausibly not hit Silver if you regularly pay for J only to overseas French / Dutch destinations like French Guiana, Reunion or Aruba and earn domestic XPs, but that is likely a small number of people given that AF has a dedicated leisure destination fleet with just 14J seats in the cabin (vs 30-58J + another 4 LP in their 787 / 777 / A350 long-haul fleet for business-oriented destinations) and KLM flies an A330 with 18 J seats to Aruba (vs 30J-38J on the 787 and 777s that make up the backbone of their long-haul fleet to business-oriented destinations). It's just implausible that there's some large number of big cash spenders on AF/KLM who don't even have Silver. They may not have FB Platinum Ultimate, but they only need Silver to not pay a seat selection fee
They do. On some routes more than 95% of customers in business class are flying blue elites. Then there are corporates especially to oil destinations such as Angola and Malabo. Those bring in most revenue and profit .
What a rip off. If I were to pay thousands for a business class seat I surely don’t want to be charged extra to pick my window/aisle seat. What gives? Next one will have to swipe their credit card to open the loo doors to use the facilities. Ridiculous!
Says a person on a site that looks to promote reward redemptions. I highly doubt you spend thousands on J seats. If you did you would have elite status of some sort and be exempt from this rule, and actually benefit from it. So, I'm calling you out. How much do you really spend? Other than points. I thought so.
What happens to Business customers who have already selected their seat?
Nothing, you’re fine. If you go to change it after the start date noted above then you’ll have to pay.
Perhaps I’m missing something, but doesn’t this (somewhat like BA) provide an incentive (assuming the trend continues) to just fly the North American JV partners?
Not sure Ben has their motive right on this one. Seems to me they won't hoover up much money and they know perfectly well this will be a disappointment to everyone, except their elites. So it's pretty likely they're doing this to please their elites. This will make the seat choice materially better for elites, even when they book late. I will hate it for myself, but I think it's an understandable move.
What an asshole move.
It costs them nothing to let customers choose seats. Pure cash grab. And a very merde-ey (see what I did there?) way to treat customers.
Oh, and they will drop the silver FB exemption in two years tops.
Well they’ve just discovered it costs them. No earnings = loss, simple as that.
Airlines charging to pick a business class seat is disgusting, its not like theyre selling them cheap.
Presumably its only Flying Poo status that gets free seat selection rather than sky team status considering they wanted to charge me to select a seat with ST status on premium econ.
If VS follows suit then non status J class passengers will become less brand loyal and book whoever is cheapest between BA and Virgin. Virgin introduced fess for PE selected seats last year and I thought the writing was on the wall for this to be rolled out in every cabin.
I've only recently started to take advantage of the ability to select a seat, having previously taken what I was given. That's usually been what my airline profile listed as my preference. Don't get me wrong, in the recent cases when I have chosen, I've been happy, but in the J cabin of a KLM/AF flight is there any seat that is worth paying 70 euros to avoid?
I might pay it to ensure a solo seat if traveling alone, or seats together if traveling with a companion, though I agree that the specific seat usually isn't worth that much to me.
What if you want to sit next to your travel partner? Or you are flying solo and want a window so that you don't have to sit next to someone.
is there any seat that is worth paying 70 euros to avoid?
Yes, any without a window.
This is bullshit. Did it once with BA, only because they were offering an inaugural for my hometown and I'd never done a first-flight before, but felt nickel & dimed as all hell, and wouldn't fly them again for that reason.
Should make it easier for families to sit together now ;)
While I personally don't like it, given a lack of SkyTeam or AF status, I perfectly understand the move. It protects the integrity of its most elite flyers getting the best seats and adds a small fee to the rest (who, let's face it, are most likely a majority in redemptions.)
I just don't see this as a big deal. And the reality is that there really are not awful seats in their 1-2-1 config which you might get stuck with by waiting.
You pay for it than & feel satisfied having wasted your money!
A small fee ? I don’t think €70-€90 is a small fee.
Then don't pay it and wait to book when check-in opens. It's hardly the end of the world, dear god. And given elites (and most likely SkyTeam elites) will be able to, if you were a loyal customer you get a better selection. If you're not, well, most likely you are redeeming points anyway so, not a big deal.
"This is a development that won’t be well received by most…
Short of the airlines themselves, I can't imagine anyone else receiving this news as welcoming.
@ RetiredATLATC -- Flying Blue elite members might like the change, as there may be more seats to choose from when booking close to departure.
What about Skyteam elite status?
Yeah. If they're following BA, then they should waive the fee for Skyteam elites like BA does for OW elites.
BA doesn't waive the fees outright. An AA Gold (OW Ruby) can select seats for free only within one week of the departure date. Prior to that, it will cost.
@Chuck: It's the same as for BA Bronze (OW Ruby), i.e. they treat their own elites the same as other OW elites.