Boeing Threatens To Cancel Boeing 737 MAX 10

Boeing Threatens To Cancel Boeing 737 MAX 10

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Boeing is threatening to cancel the 737 MAX 10 program, unless regulators grant the aircraft manufacturer an exception for new safety requirements.

Boeing CEO says company could walk away from 737 MAX 10

Boeing is currently working on getting certification for the 737 MAX 10, which is the highest capacity version of the Boeing 737. Boeing has been under increased scrutiny when it comes to certification of planes, given what we’ve learned about Boeing’s culture after two 737 MAX crashes.

In late 2020, Congress passed the Aircraft Safety and Certification Reform Act, requiring planes certified as of 2023 to comply with the latest crew alert regulations mandated by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

The 737 MAX is the only new Boeing jet not to feature this technology, given that the plane is based on an aircraft that was designed in the 1960s. So Boeing is in a tricky situation — if the 737 MAX isn’t certified by the end of 2022, the plane will need to feature all new safety technology, which will be costly, further increase the timeline for certification, and will also require additional training for pilots on the jet (and a big selling point of the 737 MAX in the first place was the lack of additional training required).

Of course it’s possible that the plane gets certified before the end of the year, though at this point it seems unlikely.

Aviation Week reports that Boeing CEO David Calhoun has hinted that the aircraft manufacturer would just scrap the 737 MAX 10 project if certification isn’t granted without this updated system. Calhoun stated that “even a world without the -10 is not that threatening,” and “it’s just a risk” that the project may need to be scrapped.

So the message from Boeing is clear — either certify the aircraft with the current technology, or Boeing just won’t bother.

Boeing may scrap the 737 MAX 10

Is Boeing bluffing? Will regulators give in?

One certainly has to wonder how this will play out.

On the one hand, Boeing is bluffing by pretending it’s happy to just write off the entire 737 MAX 10 project. There are 600+ orders for these planes, and it’s rumored that Delta is also preparing to order this jet.

Capacity-wise, this is also an important jet to compete with the Airbus A321neo. Boeing has no narrow bodies that can compete with the range of the upcoming A321XLR, but at least the 737 MAX 10 can carry a lot of passengers.

That’s not to say Boeing won’t scrap the project, but this definitely isn’t a case of “oh it’s not a big deal if it doesn’t work out.”

There’s no denying that adding these changes would be costly and time consuming, and would complicate 737 MAX operations. So I’d almost feel sorry for Boeing, except for the fact that Boeing lost so much credibility after everything that was uncovered following two 737 MAX crashes. It’s Boeing’s very behavior that’s causing the increased scrutiny around aircraft certification.

If we do get to the point where this jet isn’t certified in 2022, and if Boeing threatens to walk away from the plane, could we see the government get involved and somehow still grant an exception? After all, we are talking about billions of dollars worth of aircraft manufactured in the United States.

Boeing doesn’t want new safety guidelines for the 737 MAX

Bottom line

Boeing is facing quite the deadline with getting the 737 MAX 10 certified. If the plane isn’t certified by the end of 2022, Boeing will have to install all new technology on the jet, which will be costly and require more pilot training. Boeing is threatening to walk away from the plane if it’s not approved without these new safety requirements.

How do you see this playing out for the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX?

Conversations (113)
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  1. Azamaraal Guest

    If the "new safety features" were critical then ALL AIRCRAFT WOULD HAVE TO BE RETROFITTED. All production worldwide would cease until all aircraft were redesigned. It is logical to assume that the new features are for upgrading safety on all aircraft, not just the Max, or they would stop all Max production immediately.

    The features are not identified so the anti-Max crowd wants another kick at the cat. They are so upset that here has...

    If the "new safety features" were critical then ALL AIRCRAFT WOULD HAVE TO BE RETROFITTED. All production worldwide would cease until all aircraft were redesigned. It is logical to assume that the new features are for upgrading safety on all aircraft, not just the Max, or they would stop all Max production immediately.

    The features are not identified so the anti-Max crowd wants another kick at the cat. They are so upset that here has not been another incident with the Max that they will go hysterical over just about anything. Remember that before the crash there were 10's of thousands of safe flights and it took two inexperienced pilots to expose that flying cannot just be done by a computer. Look how long it took Airbus to get their "fly by wire" working properly and how many A320 crashes were blamed on pilot error.

    Once again Biden exposes his radical left leanings. Just like cancelling the Keystone Pipeline XL to please Bernie so that now the US relies on Russian, Venezuelan and Saudi crude to satisfy the US need for heavy oil - when he could be importing as much as he wanted from friendly Canada with a secure future.

    1. p6 Guest

      It about all newly manufactured aircraft to be certified in 2023. Anything before does not need to comply.
      If I can make an analogy, the European Union has passed a bill which will prohibit manufacturing ICE powered cars in 2030. People will still be able to use and purchase cars that were made before that date.
      If the Max 10 cannot be certified before the end of 2022, then it will have to...

      It about all newly manufactured aircraft to be certified in 2023. Anything before does not need to comply.
      If I can make an analogy, the European Union has passed a bill which will prohibit manufacturing ICE powered cars in 2030. People will still be able to use and purchase cars that were made before that date.
      If the Max 10 cannot be certified before the end of 2022, then it will have to have the extra crew safety alert installed, unless the FAA grants an extension to Boeing to certify the plane according to the previous rules.

  2. Nicolas Guest

    It's amazing Boeing management is asking to have the version approved without the new safety features. Did they now learn anything from the previous crashes? Boeing is again willing to cut corners in order to make a bigger profit.

  3. Joerg Guest

    I'm sure one way or another this thing will pass as more or less all parties have an interest in keeping Boeing afloat. The root mistake was to allow Boeing to merge with MDD creating a monopoly in US domestic production of airliners. After securing that position Boeing obviously focused its best resources on other areas mainly military, space, drones (even maritime) etc. That company is so essential for the US that it will not...

    I'm sure one way or another this thing will pass as more or less all parties have an interest in keeping Boeing afloat. The root mistake was to allow Boeing to merge with MDD creating a monopoly in US domestic production of airliners. After securing that position Boeing obviously focused its best resources on other areas mainly military, space, drones (even maritime) etc. That company is so essential for the US that it will not be forced to fail. I mean, really, somebody thinks it will become part of the likes of Rockwell, Raytheon and the other few giants of US military suppliers ? I don't see that. So one way or the other the money will have to get to them, the easiest and cheapest will be to just somehow create a hole through which that type will get certified. And frankly if the MAX9 can fly with that tech then the MAX10 should too. Of course if we really think that old design is no longer airworthy we should ground the entire family. What I mean is - people fly with decades old Boeing 737-300s every day, so surely a new MAX10 will be at least as safe, right ?

    1. P6 Guest

      I agree with you.
      Boeing sold a slew of Max 10 to Delta Airlines, a major achievement since Delta had gone Airbus. If Boeing or Delta had had any doubt about the Max 10 certification, that deal would not have taken place.

  4. CT Guest

    I will rejoice if max cancelled. 737max has the finest restroom ever, to make a longer version, 10, will only make it worse. Shame on Boeing

  5. unknown A&P Guest

    for one i love boeing cuz its made here in the US but thats what they get for hiding the MCAS ordeal on the new max . i feel like the FAA gave them too much power . so im glad the FAA is finally going hard on boeing for those people that died all because some higher up wanted his bonus it gets me mad how many people died my heart goes to the...

    for one i love boeing cuz its made here in the US but thats what they get for hiding the MCAS ordeal on the new max . i feel like the FAA gave them too much power . so im glad the FAA is finally going hard on boeing for those people that died all because some higher up wanted his bonus it gets me mad how many people died my heart goes to the families. i had stock in boeing i sold it all because of the people that are running it . if boeing doesn’t get the aircraft certified oh well its the higher ups faults and we cant even trust that they are not hiding anything yet so im glad the FAA finally put its foot down

  6. Josh Guest

    Pass it, don't pass it, keep it or don't keep it.... all I know is that I REFUSE TO FLY ANY BOEING aircraft currently produced!! I would rather fly on a Russian built plane than any of the Boeing POS!!! Good luck!

  7. Treco Guest

    Maybe Boeing should get out of aviation altogether. The company is not trustworthy and truely believes that safety is an option.

  8. Eddie D Guest

    There's more reason for European plane manufacturer, Airbus, to celebrate!

  9. Perry St Laurence Guest

    What next, -20 version that will have 300 uncomfortable seats and can fly for 8 hrs? It's time to quit building on this old design and come up with something new. Boeing corporate strutted there shit around and denied any responsibility for killing 300+ people, and this is your wakeup call.
    You abused your self governing privilege that the FAA gave Boeing in a quest for more profit, so now you will be regulated...

    What next, -20 version that will have 300 uncomfortable seats and can fly for 8 hrs? It's time to quit building on this old design and come up with something new. Boeing corporate strutted there shit around and denied any responsibility for killing 300+ people, and this is your wakeup call.
    You abused your self governing privilege that the FAA gave Boeing in a quest for more profit, so now you will be regulated and need permission from the feds for every modification all the way down to a redesign change on a toilet flush handle. And now you want to circumvent safety upgrades that can save lives. So , Mr CEO , quit trying to squeeze any more juice out of this lemon and bring something new to the table.

  10. William West Guest

    No amount of money lost could ever justify bending or ignoring safety rules. The industry is constantly required to change when lessons are learned. Don’t bury your head in the sand. Government. Keep out. It’s not your domain.

  11. Erfan Guest

    After the 2 fetal crashes, Safety is not to be compromised at all, Boeing to adhere to all Safety requirements regardless of time and cost, after all it was Boeing's fault to start with.

  12. Clayton Guest

    The simple fact that they are trying to bully or front up to a regulator that, imho, is already guilty of doing as manufacturers want too much is reason enough to not cave in.

    They don't and shouldn't get to make such calls and the FAA should carry out th9se tests themselves not let Boeing do them as tbh I dont trust them an inch not to lie and/or falsify.

    That said when...

    The simple fact that they are trying to bully or front up to a regulator that, imho, is already guilty of doing as manufacturers want too much is reason enough to not cave in.

    They don't and shouldn't get to make such calls and the FAA should carry out th9se tests themselves not let Boeing do them as tbh I dont trust them an inch not to lie and/or falsify.

    That said when the executives got zero jail time this kind of thing was not only likely to happen but was made more likely they'd feel emboldened and try this approach.

    I've no intention of setting foot on the ones that are cleared to fly now for a substantial time yet. The chance of me jumping on a version that Boeing bullied the FAA into allowing them to cut anything out is zero.

    Now add to that those voices of concern ignored, the shortcuts taken and the corners cut, AGAIN, to get it ready to be certified by years end.

    As for the trope wheeled out that "it will be the safest aircraft ever" was proven to be a false claim by all who made it when it was presented for inspection and failed over and over again. That demonstrated that, imo, Boeing had learnt nothing, didn't care and worst of all they repeatedly handed the thing over and said "all fixed, here you go" when it clearly wasn't and that they did that multiple times

    1. jedipenguin Guest

      Airbus should be the only aircraft builder for airlines-No western airline is going to order the Chinese airliners when they come online.

    2. Matthew Guest

      So Boeing is effectively saying the MAX 10 is the last 737 Boeing will ever create because any future model will need these requirements.

      About as believable as when they say "safety is our number 1 priority".

  13. Nicholas Kaiser Guest

    Congress only passed the certification reform act because the voters and the world forced the issue. Congress hates passing laws that involve them getting into specific regulatory standards. They would much rather leave the details to the regulator, the FAA.

    I don't see any chance of Congress granting Boeing an extension. There was already a significant amount of the legislative calendar devoted to Boeing concerning the same agenda items.

    I think the acknowledgement...

    Congress only passed the certification reform act because the voters and the world forced the issue. Congress hates passing laws that involve them getting into specific regulatory standards. They would much rather leave the details to the regulator, the FAA.

    I don't see any chance of Congress granting Boeing an extension. There was already a significant amount of the legislative calendar devoted to Boeing concerning the same agenda items.

    I think the acknowledgement that the MAX 10 could be cancelled is a result of Boeing understanding that Congress is not going to clear their schedule during the lame duck session to grant favors to the company.

  14. Jim Mast Guest

    I was a Boeing fan for many years until non-aviation people took over the company and started managing on a profit-first basis instead of an excellent quality product at a competitive price first. This attitude has cost Boeing one of its most important assets. The trust of the aviation community, its regulators, and many in the flying public. Now they want to go to the politicians
    for relief, and that further erodes trust.

  15. Safetyman Guest

    If you read all of these comments it is obvious that Boeing has a huge PR issue. The need to scrap the MAX and come with a new design to regain the publics trust. They also need to fix the 787, plane as it has escaped bad PR so far. Look at how popular and safe the 757/767 planes were and still are. Shame to Boeing, they need a new Board of directors and management....

    If you read all of these comments it is obvious that Boeing has a huge PR issue. The need to scrap the MAX and come with a new design to regain the publics trust. They also need to fix the 787, plane as it has escaped bad PR so far. Look at how popular and safe the 757/767 planes were and still are. Shame to Boeing, they need a new Board of directors and management. I would be that every board member comes to a board meeting in their private jet. They will not even fly a Boeing.

    1. Joerg Guest

      In my opinion what we see is the result of the unexpected success of Airbus. The A380 forced the push to change ETOPS in order to break the hub and spokes model which required the 787 to be that new super aircraft which now looks like one bridge too far. Which in turn ate up the resources to replace the 737 at the right time with something new. I'm always amazed how people call the...

      In my opinion what we see is the result of the unexpected success of Airbus. The A380 forced the push to change ETOPS in order to break the hub and spokes model which required the 787 to be that new super aircraft which now looks like one bridge too far. Which in turn ate up the resources to replace the 737 at the right time with something new. I'm always amazed how people call the A380 a failure while it actually broke Boeing's Jumbo monopoly and forced competition in all areas. To me the MAX-disaster is the outcome of this push by Airbus. Now of course we can endlessly speculate which side illegally state-funded what part of which development, but in the end that's not really important, I think.

  16. Philip Guest

    Boring so after all the years in operations cannot make a proper aircraft.
    Their stupidity and lack of safety culture has placed them behind manufacturers who believe in ergonomics and building machines fit for today.
    Move away from the 737. Over the years the history of the 737 has been a dark one with accidents that would've grounded any other Type.
    Boeing needs proper management and proper oversight.

  17. Eskimo Guest

    Explain to me why Boeing is threatening Boeing?

    It's like kids who threaten to kill themselves because their crush doesn't reciprocate their feelings.

    This whole company needs a whole new leadership.
    If only they picked Alan Mulally decades ago.

  18. seanpodge New Member

    Even if the FAA decided to cave in to Boeing, that doesn't mean the rest of the world is going to. Given the issue of the all too cozy relationship between the FAA and Boeing with the original MAX being certified, there's no reason why authorities in other countries will be willing to take the FAA's word for it this time around. Why would the EU, China, et al allow the MAX 10 to even...

    Even if the FAA decided to cave in to Boeing, that doesn't mean the rest of the world is going to. Given the issue of the all too cozy relationship between the FAA and Boeing with the original MAX being certified, there's no reason why authorities in other countries will be willing to take the FAA's word for it this time around. Why would the EU, China, et al allow the MAX 10 to even enter their airspace, let alone be operated by local airlines without doing a full certification process themselves.

    1. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      Bingo! And I'm surprised that the press lets them get away with it: if the FAA is seen as going easy on Boeing again, there's no reason whatsoever for other nations to go along with it. China would probably delay the aircraft for years, just out of spite.... and who could blame them?

    2. Phillip Guest

      The FAA will appear even more corrupt if they allow this. The manufacturer needs to move away from this dinosaur design and build a proper airframe as the current airframe is from the 60s.

      This company has lost its way.

    3. jedipenguin Guest

      I don't think Boeing is capable of designing a new airplane-Let Embrarer or the Japanese buy Boeing Commercial.

  19. Kaloyan Guest

    Yah kill 400 ppl in 30d period, then tell pll we want security of our planes lower or we won't make em? Wtf is wrong with American arrogant creeps? So you killed 400 and you want to kill more afterwards? Fk boeing I am flying only airbus from now

  20. PL Guest

    Please cancel the MAX-10. It's a death trap anyway.

  21. jns Guest

    I've flown on a 737 Max 8 and it was good. I know the crew was well trained. Hopefully Boeing can get the 737 Max 10 approved and the airlines take pilot training seriously.

  22. Asian Mariner Guest

    If by using threats to get a dangerous aircraft approved by FAA, we will not fly any aircraft of Boeing brand.

  23. Dale Guest

    Ooooh, poor Boeing. If you don't treat us nice we're going to lose money on purpose... LOL. Boeing's arrogance and greed led them to this point and it may be their eventual undoing. The real question is will Boeing ever regain the trust of the industry and the traveling public. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Boeing sell their passenger plane division to Chinese concerns. They're more interested in being a defense contractor now.

  24. Brian SFO (28R) Guest

    It would be ideal for the MAX-10 to be cancelled, as it would speed up Boeing's decision to launch the MOM/797. After all, the -10 is a stopgap/compromise airliner that is uncompetitive against A321neo, and the -10 has poor field performance. The -10 is only 5' 4" longer (enough for about 9 or 10 more seats) than the -9, so airlines would only be slightly inconvenienced by having to downgauge their -10 orders to a -9.

  25. JetSetGo Guest

    Can US regulators just come out and say 10 is a no go already? Time for Boeing to develop next generation airplane instead of sitting on its lazy ass and trying to use 1960 technology for 2020s and beyond. You would think with all the talent coming out of CIT, MIT, and other top schools in this country, designing and producing an airplane shouldn’t be this difficult.

  26. Katchi Guest

    I wouldn't be surprised if the regulators give in, until few more planes falls off the sky!

  27. Pat Guest

    The people who were supposed to be in command of those aircraft are who killed those people. Of course downright criminal maintenance and poor to no airmanship skills had nothing at all to do with it.

  28. Marshalg New Member

    It's really time for Boeing to break out and develop a new mid-range aircraft line using all the latest technology. Boeing needs it and the world needs it to keep a strong competitor to Airbus alive.

  29. FG Guest

    Enough with boing. They did not learn from their mistakes and are still a greedy company. When booking a flight, check for the plane model and book on airbus.

  30. Jim Guest

    Boeing went down hill as soon as it merged with McDonnell Douglas in 1997. The Seattle headquarters was moved and it became about production and nothing about innovation or safety. I refuse to fly any new Boeing planes.

  31. Jim Guest

    It comes down to money and they tried to fast track something and it hit them in the face. I thought safety was important when flying.

  32. Rony Joseph Guest

    Boeing should not be granted an exemption to safety regulations. Boeing has been putting corporate profits ahead of public safety for decades and getting away with murder. Decades ago, we had a problem with empty fuel tank vapors causing explosions and Boeing was required to safe the tanks which they did not do. The FAA has been playing favorites with Boeing as is NASA. Instead they have taken to picking on SpaceX which does not...

    Boeing should not be granted an exemption to safety regulations. Boeing has been putting corporate profits ahead of public safety for decades and getting away with murder. Decades ago, we had a problem with empty fuel tank vapors causing explosions and Boeing was required to safe the tanks which they did not do. The FAA has been playing favorites with Boeing as is NASA. Instead they have taken to picking on SpaceX which does not have lobbyists. I refuse to fly anywhere on a Boeing aircraft and I hope that the public will start boycotting Boeing and airlines which fly their dangerous planes.

    1. jedipenguin Guest

      Space X should buy Boeing Commercial.

  33. Dave Clapham Guest

    Why have Boeing not initiated the new technology themselves. This plane was not in production when the accident occurred so it is obvious that they need to comply with the regulations. Unfortunately it will cost jobs.

  34. Malcolm Neal Guest

    Cancel the 10? Please do.

  35. Patrick Guest

    I am a member of the flying public. I am aware of the irresponsible actions of Boeing in the production of this aircraft. Let them cancel certification as punishment for their behaviour and take the financial loss as a reminder of the lives lost by their neglect.

  36. Kent Guest

    Please do. Cancel.
    What a corporate culture...

    1. Max Guest

      Yes please! Threatening and blackmailing the regulator, and doing so after lying to them previously, is alone reason enough to not give an inch to Boeing.

  37. Hate Flying Cattle Cars Guest

    I believe the threat. If a cheap tweak to avoid pilot retraining doesn't work they will scrap it. Instead of doing an expensive tweak they will design a new plane, new number, that will not only incorporate the new technology but make other changes such as moving the wings higher to accommodate bigger engines and avoid the need for MCAS.

    Provided they still have the money and engineers to do it. Not sure a shiny...

    I believe the threat. If a cheap tweak to avoid pilot retraining doesn't work they will scrap it. Instead of doing an expensive tweak they will design a new plane, new number, that will not only incorporate the new technology but make other changes such as moving the wings higher to accommodate bigger engines and avoid the need for MCAS.

    Provided they still have the money and engineers to do it. Not sure a shiny new plane will help much. Because of the uncertain scheduling, TSA gauntlet and shrinking seat width & pitch, I would still never fly anywhere I can drive. And if I can't drive I'll reevaluate how badly I want to go there.

  38. Ted Guest

    I hope it does get canceled if Boeing wants to cut corners again on safety - they need to learn this is NOT acceptable. FAA - do your job and protect the public from corporate greed!

    Personally, I still avoid all MAX variants when flying. Haven't had to get on one yet and really don't want to if it is at all possible to avoid going forward. Was sad to hear Delta is ordering MAX planes recently now too.

    1. Dr K Guest

      I too am avoiding the Max variations at all cost. As an AA elite, that effectively locks me out of visiting Aruba, Bermuda, Bogota, and other Miami-connected cities, since AA mostly uses Max aircraft to these places, which is very frustrating. I considered switching to Delta, but if they are buying these death traps too, why bother?

    2. Steve Guest

      I'd be less concerned about the plane they were forced to fix and more concerned about the new planes they released that they weren't forced to fix: the 787.

  39. Scubafly Guest

    Boeing should have been stripped of any certification after what they did, as the whole design quality system is based on the integrity of the process, and it’s clear they messed a lot with it. They weren’t, it’s just the bare minimum that now their every word, drawing and software is double checked. And keeping selling rehashes of rehashes is not a sound strategy anyway, they already lost more than 50% of the market, go ahead and lose the rest

    1. PatONealJr New Member

      Maybe it’s time for Lockheed Martin to end its 50 year commercial aviation hiatus and produce a quality American airliner that will reassert the US’s position as the premier manufacturer of commercial airplanes. I don’t think what Boeing is doing within its newish corporate culture is tenable for them and the aviation industry.

    2. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      Or, wilder still... there's nothing stopping a joint venture between Lockheed and Airbus. J/S

  40. AA70 Gold

    Just wait until the general flying public hears that a new variant of the MAX lacks regulator-mandated safety software

    1. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      ...history shows they'll be hysterical for about a week's worth of media circus, then forget all about it, and go back to selecting flights almost exclusively on price.

      The general public hearing anything would be the LEAST of Boeing's worries.

  41. Ed Guest

    This is what happens when you keeping putting lipstick on a pig. Some say that Boeing's relationship with Southwest Airlines is what got them in to this mess. Who knows for sure, but one thing is for sure...Its time to retire the 737.
    Boeing desperately needs a shot of adrenaline and a 737 replacement would give it that boost. Lately, it seems like Boeing is a rudderless ship with no direction.

    1. AA70 Gold

      Southwest may have, but American issued a statement they were ordering new jets from Boeing, of which included "100 re-engined 737s" before Boeing even unveiled the aircraft. They kind of strong armed them

    2. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      "They kind of strong armed them"

      That's not what's being referred to. Southwest engaged in some real legally questionable shit, and Boeing was all-too-willing to be led by the nose. Here, watch this vid to get an idea:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXuRthTO-nw

  42. Jt Guest

    These so called safety enhancements is considered a perk of the pilot community. It is maybe 2 seconds of thought. Literally the pilot just has to look up at a light instead of in front of him. Nothing is ever that critical that these enhancements should matter.

    The glass screens help for navigation and automation. Ground Warnings and traffic alerts. Warnings and cautions not so much.

    1. LampPost Guest

      If the 737's warning system is so perfectly adequate, why did Boeing bother upgrading to vastly more advanced 75/76 EICAS just 15 years later? It was just 17 years ago that a 121 people died because pilots confused the cabin altitude horn for the take-off config warning.

      Is the best solution for the 737 family to just add more static warning lights each time pilot confusion over lack of information is a factor in another...

      If the 737's warning system is so perfectly adequate, why did Boeing bother upgrading to vastly more advanced 75/76 EICAS just 15 years later? It was just 17 years ago that a 121 people died because pilots confused the cabin altitude horn for the take-off config warning.

      Is the best solution for the 737 family to just add more static warning lights each time pilot confusion over lack of information is a factor in another crash?

      I mean, had Boeing made this change on the Max to start with, it's conceivable they could have tied it into MCAS and allowed the two accident aircraft crews to have a fighting chance at knowing what was happening and recovering -- rather than first learning about the major MCAS flaws from charred FDRs.

  43. ChadMC Guest

    Let it be cancelled. It's corporate greed and short-term thinking that got them here in the first place. Instead of engineering a new and fresh design, they chose to recycle the same old tired design again and again. Now they want to skip out on critical safety features knowing it's one of the most crash-prone planes in history? Let them cancel it. This is capitalism/free-market after all. They couldn't come up with a good product...

    Let it be cancelled. It's corporate greed and short-term thinking that got them here in the first place. Instead of engineering a new and fresh design, they chose to recycle the same old tired design again and again. Now they want to skip out on critical safety features knowing it's one of the most crash-prone planes in history? Let them cancel it. This is capitalism/free-market after all. They couldn't come up with a good product and someone else did. This is all on the backs of the bankers who run this once great formerly engineering-focused company.

  44. Peter Edridge Guest

    Sounds like the one thing that was really needed at Boeing hasn't happened - a complete management upgrade.

  45. John Galt Guest

    Boeing went with tiny, tiny changes on the 1960s 737. Bombardier, now Airbus, designed the A 220 from scratch. A 220 is a great new plane. 737–even the Max—not so much. Big mistake by Boeing; the magic is gone.

    Boeing moved its HQ from Seattle (engineering) to Chicago (accounting) to N. Va. (Lobbying). Boeing—biggest US exporter by far—is doomed.

    1. Chris Ritchie Guest

      Boeing should have to eat crow and lose big money as a result of them INTENTIONALLY FALSIFYING and COLLUDING to keep this NEW system from being called what it really is. Furthermore why is the government NOT filing CRIMINAL charges against these crooks? Another example of being a large company and making big contributions to political parties makes you above the law again?? If I have a choice of Boeing, Airbus, etc. - I certainly...

      Boeing should have to eat crow and lose big money as a result of them INTENTIONALLY FALSIFYING and COLLUDING to keep this NEW system from being called what it really is. Furthermore why is the government NOT filing CRIMINAL charges against these crooks? Another example of being a large company and making big contributions to political parties makes you above the law again?? If I have a choice of Boeing, Airbus, etc. - I certainly will not fly or ride in a Boeing. Good riddenence.

    2. jedipenguin Guest

      Perphaps Space X could buy Boeing Commercial.

  46. Pablo Guest

    There are limits on how much one can stretch the technologies of the 60s’, when the Boeing 737 was first developed. The Airbus family (320, 321 and 220) are clearly winners under many points of view, including a cabin which is 2 inches wider than the 737.

  47. Always Flying Somewhere Guest

    Sad thing is that the U.S. government will probably cave in the name of supporting `merican business and `merican jobs..

  48. Aman Guest

    Given the max fiasco, the aircraft must be fully certified. It would be criminal to allow this plane to fly without satisfying the full requirements after what has happened in the past.
    The Max 10 has also been ordered in large quantities and the consequences of any safety failings will be dire on public safety.
    I hope the authorities will not give in and hold the Boeing CEO- the world will not be in a worst situation without the Max 10.

  49. Anthony Joseph Guest

    This is a ridiculous gambit by Boeing.
    1. THe Boeing 737 MAX is an unsafe design. it should never have been certified, particularly after the fiascos with the two crashes. Specifically when they had to move the engines forward of the wing that changed the flight dynamics)
    2. The Boeing 737 fuselage is not competitive wiht A321 fuselage. The additional width in tha A321 series is noticeable with the seat width in economy...

    This is a ridiculous gambit by Boeing.
    1. THe Boeing 737 MAX is an unsafe design. it should never have been certified, particularly after the fiascos with the two crashes. Specifically when they had to move the engines forward of the wing that changed the flight dynamics)
    2. The Boeing 737 fuselage is not competitive wiht A321 fuselage. The additional width in tha A321 series is noticeable with the seat width in economy class.
    3. Why isn't there push for fuel efficiency via carbon-fiber (significantly reduced weight)? Why not go back to 757-style carbon fiber design where there is ample weight balance and sufficient vertical clearance for larger engines under the wing.

    Boeing should spin off their commerical air business from the military business. I am pretty sure that Airbus is no longer subsidized by member governments, so why is Boeing not competitive price-wise and why isn't Boeing standardizing avionics across all models as Airbus has done to allow pilots to more easily re-train to newer models

  50. Anonymous Guest

    Boeing should behave and stop threatening. They are a joke and they have demands on top of everything they should close down in general and let Airbus care for safety and renovation so we all be more safe in the air. That coffin should not fly.

    1. jorgje Member

      I strongly disagree. Even though I agree that Boeing has done things terribly lately (to say it mildly), the world market needs at least two strong competitors. Sure, Boeing should completely reorganize their business and I just love Airbus, but a market without competition is per definition horrible.

  51. glenn t Diamond

    Boeing's effrontery in asking for special favours with regard to certification is amazing.
    Given their sorry history with the MAX to date, any government or government agency should be super-wary of anything Boeing asks. If it were to cave, and an accident (or 2) happens, it could rightly and jointly seen to be complicit.
    So what if it is going to cost them more; they are a public company with shareholders who are...

    Boeing's effrontery in asking for special favours with regard to certification is amazing.
    Given their sorry history with the MAX to date, any government or government agency should be super-wary of anything Boeing asks. If it were to cave, and an accident (or 2) happens, it could rightly and jointly seen to be complicit.
    So what if it is going to cost them more; they are a public company with shareholders who are subject to market vagaries like any other big or small company.
    There is much talk about the culture of the company, none good, so maybe it's time for some of the dinosaurs at the top to cash in their no doubt massive benefits package and retire to the Bahamas or wherever.

  52. iamhere Guest

    I would not usually check the type of aircraft the airline uses, but I would consider a different flight because of the MAX plane being used.

  53. Kk Guest

    What an incapable company. I don’t believe they have capacity to build a new plan anymore. Pathetic. Also a good indicator of how hazardous is the protectionism. The congress should not protect them anymore.

  54. SNO Guest

    Honeymoon is over for Calhoun, he feels the pressure of old liabilities he picked up from his predecessors.
    About 737 MAX10, it‘s an abomination. The hydraulic wizardry used during takeoff to protect against tails strikes is an accident to happen. It makes it painfully obvious, that the plane is too long. The takeoff has been taken care off, but what about the landing?
    About EICAS - If other manufacturers have EICAS as demanded...

    Honeymoon is over for Calhoun, he feels the pressure of old liabilities he picked up from his predecessors.
    About 737 MAX10, it‘s an abomination. The hydraulic wizardry used during takeoff to protect against tails strikes is an accident to happen. It makes it painfully obvious, that the plane is too long. The takeoff has been taken care off, but what about the landing?
    About EICAS - If other manufacturers have EICAS as demanded by the aviation authorities, then Boeing suppose to install an EICAS into the 737 MAX planes (all models) as well. There‘s no reason to get an exemption due to the age of the 737 design.
    It‘s not the FAA‘s failure, that Boeing ignored regulations and now has a difficult time to catch up.

    1. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      "The hydraulic wizardry used during takeoff to protect against tails strikes is an accident to happen."

      Sorry, but this is pure ignorance.

      Levered and semi-levered landing gear have been in both Boeing military and commercial design for decades, with nary an accident caused. I don't hear you whining about the same concept in the 777-300ER. Did you even know it was on that model?

  55. Marek Tylko Guest

    How sad that American labor has been reduced to remaking technology from the glory days of the sixties.
    The motivation of Boeing management has seemed clear, union busting not plane making. If there is one more casualty due to missing modern technology from these max iterations, then Boeing has failed us.
    It is one thing to lose children and family due to unanticipated failures of complex systems, quite another to lose them to simple greed.

  56. kels2003 Member

    Boeing f—d around and found out, and they still want special treatment on old hardware they are STILL trying to correct with software?! Please, go ahead and cancel.

  57. Samo Guest

    They didn't learn anything, did they? The corporate culture seems to be unaffected by the Max fiasco.

  58. Gus Guest

    The whole lot of the MAX planned should be sent to the recycling centre, over 60 investigations ongoing into fresh malfunctions. Death ship.

  59. Rocky Guest

    If Boeing can’t meet standards, the world will be safer without another 737 Max. Boeing has been given enough exceptions over the years.

  60. Air Mika Guest

    Big business in bed with big government stifles its competition with regulations, then bitches about regulations.

  61. Esquiar Guest

    Strongly recommend Flying Blind by Peter Robison. He makes a strong case that 737 needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. The strong implication is that Boeing’s corporate culture is too dominated by financial engineers to complete the task.

    The best option would be for them to go bankrupt and split the commercial aviation unit into its own business. The workers can stay employed and the old execs will lose their bonuses

  62. ps241 Guest

    Boeing has yelled "Jump!"

    Now we just have to wait to see how long it takes the U.S. government to ask "How high?"

    Would it be such a loss if the skies were not filled with 600 more planes originally designed in the 1960s? Let Boeing design and build a new plane, and let Southwest and the other airlines train their pilots on how to fly it.

  63. Bob Guest

    Well if several top Boeing execs actually had to go on trial at a minimum for the deaths previously maybe they wouldn't be so cavalier but since they know they can get away with murder mind as well double down.

  64. Ivan X Guest

    My feeling is that if I’m on a 737 anything I’m flying from the wrong place to the wrong place.

  65. Earl B. Guest

    Boeing is playing a dangerous game of chicken. But of course, they have become so arrogant they think no-one will call their bluff. Maybe they have a certain geriatric politician in their pocket. But what government bureaucrat at this point wants to be the one who signs off on a safety waiver (of a Congressional requirement) for the Max? I think the regulators (who of course are NOT blameless) are just about done with any more special treatment for Boeing.

  66. Chester Guest

    For the uninitiated, I hope my input will help put this fight into perspective for you. The max 10 is touted as the “largest member” of the max family but is in fact only 5 feet and few inches longer than the max 9. That is basically 1 row of seats more than an already certified airliner that would offer 97 percent of the capacity of the max 10 and even more range, all without...

    For the uninitiated, I hope my input will help put this fight into perspective for you. The max 10 is touted as the “largest member” of the max family but is in fact only 5 feet and few inches longer than the max 9. That is basically 1 row of seats more than an already certified airliner that would offer 97 percent of the capacity of the max 10 and even more range, all without requiring any more cost or time regarding certification. I hope Congress and the FAA stand firm on this new requirement; the negligence and irresponsible actions that led to the loss of 346 lives demand this as a project that does not get a pass, but rather let it serve as penance, however trivial, for a true tragedy. I say this as a professional pilot that thinks this plane SHOULD have additional, more modern safety features.

  67. Hank Tarn Guest

    It really is very simple, ban American carriers from buying any more Airbus planes, unless the Europeans order more Boeing jets. Many disagree with how he came across, but Trump had it right about trade and our allies not buying enough from America.

    1. Caleb Guest

      Not sure how this comment is relevant. This isn't about a duopoly pissing match; it's about safety expectations for a plane that is currently, from a statistical perspective, the most dangerous in the skies.

    2. Kk Guest

      In this case americans would be flying 737-800s in 50 years from now while the rest of the woul enjoy cleaner and better planes

    3. 305 Guest

      Dumbest serious comment on this blog in the 5 years I’ve been a reader

    4. Jan Guest

      Seems like your understanding of market forces is what is exceedingly simple.

      What you are proposing is called extortion, essentially.

    5. redrobbo Guest

      You mean just like the old Soviet days with Russian airlines could only buy Tupolevs and Illyushins?

    6. EBWaa Guest

      Do you also think that European airlines should in turn be banned from ordering Boeing aircraft? Forcing airlines to buy aircraft for the sake of nationalistic pride rather than their requirements is idiotic and would potentially open Boeing up to retribution that would ultimately damage the company and it’s suppliers. It’s antithetical to the free market and innovation.

  68. MarkyMark-321 Guest

    Wow!! That's about all I'm willing to say that won't be edited out. Apparently, Boeing CEO David Calhoun feels that since his company just lost a $37 billion order from China for Airbus aircraft, he can blackmail the FAA into certifying the MAX 10 come hell or high water. Mr. Calhoun and his ilk in the boardroom seem hellbent on destroying the former good name of Boeing as quickly as possible. I love Boeing products,...

    Wow!! That's about all I'm willing to say that won't be edited out. Apparently, Boeing CEO David Calhoun feels that since his company just lost a $37 billion order from China for Airbus aircraft, he can blackmail the FAA into certifying the MAX 10 come hell or high water. Mr. Calhoun and his ilk in the boardroom seem hellbent on destroying the former good name of Boeing as quickly as possible. I love Boeing products, I just don't care for the sheer audacity and incompetence of their entire C-Suite.

  69. Creditcrunch Diamond

    Any negative press that mentions B737Max and safety certifications waivers will go down like a lead balloon with the travelling public.

  70. Alex Guest

    I'm not an aviation engineer but I don't get this from general point of view.

    I can presume these systems are useful and help increase the safety of the aircraft. No other Boeing aircraft is produced without these. If a plane is certified now, it will likely be produced for the next 20-40 years.

    Why do we even want to allow production of 1960s technology without the safety elements that are deemed necessary? 737...

    I'm not an aviation engineer but I don't get this from general point of view.

    I can presume these systems are useful and help increase the safety of the aircraft. No other Boeing aircraft is produced without these. If a plane is certified now, it will likely be produced for the next 20-40 years.

    Why do we even want to allow production of 1960s technology without the safety elements that are deemed necessary? 737 was a good plane for its time but Boeing keeps stretching it and did it beyond reasonable limit, killing 346 people. Is that not enough to stop this behavior? They have the systems developed, sure they can fit them into a new plane and if it requires extra training for pilots, so be it. Better than killing people.

    1. Shutterbug Member

      Just look at it from the Boeing point of view. Their goal is maximizing profits and bonuses. So with the 737Max they cut corners, saving on safety measures and the necessary additional training of pilots.
      The direct results were two accidents with 346 people killed. Turned out to be costly, but, as usual, nobody of those responsible for that disaster had to do time.
      And now they face the choice again – profits or safety. Well, they gave the answer.

    2. Alex Guest

      Yeah, I get why Boeing wants it. But I wouldn't get why FAA would allow this.

      One more Boeing's fault crash of MAX (especially if in the US) and I foresee Boeing being split like Arthur Andersen was after Enron. But that one more crash - anyone of us can be on that plane.

  71. Gordon K Guest

    Boeing=Greed, make no mistake about it but it's military aircraft make the company essential to USA & others. Congress will cave b/c Boeing calls the shots. Would I fly 787 or 737 MAX? NO

  72. mark su Guest

    have the FAA grant an exception only if EICAS is retrofitted to all MAX-8 and MAX-7 within 12 months or 1000 cycles.

    With as much as Boeing embarrassed the FAA, I would grant the approval at 00:01 on 01 Jan 2023.

  73. Ole Guest

    Things are always great from outside. Until the crash, no one knew of the enormity of the mess at Boeing. What’s to say, Airbus doesn’t have it’s own internal issues?

    Also, it’s easy to blame Boeing for the mess, but when are we going to blame congress, presidents and FAA for tolerating and turning a blind eye to the mess? They actually supported and oversaw Boeing creating this mess. When the time came, threw Boeing...

    Things are always great from outside. Until the crash, no one knew of the enormity of the mess at Boeing. What’s to say, Airbus doesn’t have it’s own internal issues?

    Also, it’s easy to blame Boeing for the mess, but when are we going to blame congress, presidents and FAA for tolerating and turning a blind eye to the mess? They actually supported and oversaw Boeing creating this mess. When the time came, threw Boeing under the bus without ever questioning the politicians and administrations that didn’t do their damn job

  74. John Guest

    So they’ve learned absolutely nothing from
    Killing +300 people costing themselves them $10s of billions in losses in the process. Do I have that right?

  75. SamB Member

    I'm kind of shocked that they're not putting this system on any of the MAX models, since you would think they would want to do everything to can to assure safety after the debacles. I feel like the old Boeing would've done that.

  76. Tim Dunn Diamond

    The 737MAX 7 - or any other member of the 737 family - does not have EICAS and the MAX 7 is not certified but Boeing is far enough along on MAX 7 certification that it will probably make the Dec 31 deadline.

  77. AA70 Gold

    Good. Let them cancel it and make those phone calls to airline CEOs, their actions led them to where they lie today. Let the MAX die, and let Boeing get what they deserve. MAX debacle, 787 deliveries still haven't resumed, and if I were Lufthansa, I would sue Boeing for the 779 deliveries as they lost their 5th star over the delay.

    1. AA70 Gold

      @Ivan X gotta work it in wherever possible

Featured Comments Most helpful comments ( as chosen by the OMAAT community ).

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Chester Guest

For the uninitiated, I hope my input will help put this fight into perspective for you. The max 10 is touted as the “largest member” of the max family but is in fact only 5 feet and few inches longer than the max 9. That is basically 1 row of seats more than an already certified airliner that would offer 97 percent of the capacity of the max 10 and even more range, all without requiring any more cost or time regarding certification. I hope Congress and the FAA stand firm on this new requirement; the negligence and irresponsible actions that led to the loss of 346 lives demand this as a project that does not get a pass, but rather let it serve as penance, however trivial, for a true tragedy. I say this as a professional pilot that thinks this plane SHOULD have additional, more modern safety features.

11
kels2003 Member

Boeing f—d around and found out, and they still want special treatment on old hardware they are STILL trying to correct with software?! Please, go ahead and cancel.

9
John Guest

So they’ve learned absolutely nothing from Killing +300 people costing themselves them $10s of billions in losses in the process. Do I have that right?

9
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