Two United Airlines passengers are (separately) ranting online about passengers moving around to other empty economy seats. They have exactly the opposite viewpoints, yet somehow, they both manage to be wrong, in my opinion.
Why can’t you always move to empty economy seats?
Yesterday on Threads, a social media user posted a picture from her economy seat on United, with the following caption:
This is the first time I’ve flown United in years. What the actual F? At least 10 rows completely empty. They won’t allow you to move there unless you pay. Why? Everyone is crammed in the back together!!!!!! Do better United!
Now, for the record, I don’t quite count 10 rows, and I wouldn’t call those “completely empty,” but point taken!
View on Threads
Coincidentally, yesterday on X, a social media user posted a complaint about how she had paid for extra legroom, and then saw people move to empty seats without paying, and the crew did nothing:
love paying for extra space on @united just for people to move into the empty seats without paying while the crew watches it happen lol why do you even sell upgrades
But this wasn’t just a customer service complaint. She took it to the next level, and is getting the FAA involved:
since my flight has been disrupted by non-compliance i’ve done the following:
- learned that due to flight safety it’s actually a direct violation of FAA weight and balance regulations (14 CFR § 121.665) and crew compliance
- filed an official FAA Safety Hotline complaint mid-flight while connected to wifi
- had United lead desk document the crew refusal and seat poaching directly onto my reservation record
- preparing the DOT 14 CFR Part 260 and 49 U.S.C. § 41712 filings for their lack of safety preparation
It’s kind of funny to separately see two people complain about exactly the same thing, but be on the exact opposite ends of the spectrum. Heck, I guess that actually describes so much of our dialogue nowadays, so never mind.
I disagree with both of these people, for different reasons
Let’s start with the passenger complaining about not being allowed to move seats. I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she just doesn’t understand, but the reason airlines have this policy is simple.
On the most basic level, airlines try to sell extra legroom seats, or even seats toward the front of the cabin, for more money. It’s a monetized product. If you just start giving it away for free, then people are less likely to pay for it. And it also doesn’t leave a great taste in the mouth of those that did pay when others simply move up for free — for example, see the second complaint. 😉
You don’t go to a restaurant, order a burger, and then say “hey, but you also have filet mignon, how dare you not give me that for free!” Similarly, you don’t check into a hotel having booked a standard room, and then demanding the presidential suite for free (well, unless you’re an elite member). 😉 Yes, as a secondary point, weight and balance can be a consideration as well, but that’s only in certain situations (based on the overall load of the aircraft, and how the plane is “zoned”).
Regarding the second person’s complaint, I think the initial feedback is totally valid, and it’s the right perspective. It’s also exactly the reason that just upgrading everyone for free isn’t the right move, unless there’s an operational reason for it.
That being said, I find it rather laughable to take a customer service issue and turn it into a safety issue, especially without full context. I’m going to assume that this passenger isn’t actually an FAA safety auditor who understands the rules she’s citing, but instead, she likely just used AI to figure out any possible theories she could come up with to bolster her “safety” case.
She’s literally making DOT 14 CFR Part 260 and 49 U.S.C. § 41712 filings? For what it’s worth, the former involves refunds for airline fares and ancillary service fees, while the latter involves unfair and deceptive practices and unfair methods of competition.
While her general frustration is warranted, this strikes me as a step (way) too far:
- By all means file a complaint with an airline to let them know about lack of enforcement
- Making this a safety issue is ridiculous, because it’s not always a weight and balance issue when passengers switch seats within a certain area of the plane
- If you really think you shouldn’t have to pay for something because someone else got something for free, then I don’t think anyone would be paying for any airline ticket or fee 😉
Bottom line
When you’re seated in economy and the cabin isn’t equally occupied, it’s logical to wonder why you can’t move around to other seats. While it’s possible in some situations, in others, it isn’t.
For the situations where it isn’t possible, it’s because airlines often sell certain seats as being premium, and if you start just letting people move to them for free, then you potentially dilute revenue, and frustrate those who did pay for the experience. Weight and balance can also be a consideration, but only in some situations.
Coincidentally, I saw two complaints about this on social media platforms the same day, both involving United. In one case, a passenger was furious because the crew wouldn’t let her move to an empty seat. In another situation, a passenger was furious because she paid for extra legroom, and saw others moving to empty seats. She even went so far as to file a safety complaint with the FAA.
What do you make of this open economy seat situation?
making this a safety issue is indeed ridiculous, but it is exactly the culture that US airlines have bred by proclaiming that FAs are "primarily here for your safety" and making every FA whim a safety issue.
it really should not have been hard to predict that passengers will take their cue from the airlines accordingly, and decide that their whims are all safety issues too!
anyway, my view on this, barring any actual...
making this a safety issue is indeed ridiculous, but it is exactly the culture that US airlines have bred by proclaiming that FAs are "primarily here for your safety" and making every FA whim a safety issue.
it really should not have been hard to predict that passengers will take their cue from the airlines accordingly, and decide that their whims are all safety issues too!
anyway, my view on this, barring any actual legit w&b issues, is that first dibs on empty rows should go to those already rightfully seated in extra legroom sections (e.g., moving from a middle seat in a full row to a window in an empty row). then, if any fully empty rows remain, sure, let those in back snag them on a first-come basis. no moving to a row that already has a paying passenger or companions enjoying that row to themselves, though. that protects the interests of the paying pax and also preserves a material incentive to buy up (guarantee your own extra legroom seat and first dibs on empty rows).
You’re giving the first passenger too much benefit of the doubt. This isn’t a case of them not understanding, they clearly stated why they couldn’t move. They understand perfectly well; they just don’t like the answer. Happens all the time.....
The second passenger is correct. Depending on the aircraft, Some airlines limit how many upgrades can be accommodated due to weight and balance constraints. That said, the crew isn’t responsible for policing the cabin...
You’re giving the first passenger too much benefit of the doubt. This isn’t a case of them not understanding, they clearly stated why they couldn’t move. They understand perfectly well; they just don’t like the answer. Happens all the time.....
The second passenger is correct. Depending on the aircraft, Some airlines limit how many upgrades can be accommodated due to weight and balance constraints. That said, the crew isn’t responsible for policing the cabin to ensure every single person is in their exact assigned seat.
Then whose job is it? Clearly it IS their job because your absolutely be booted from F. Why is an extra legroom seat not treated as the same. W&B aside, if airlines are going to monetize EVERYTHING, they need to be held accountable for that monetization and ensuring that people get ONLY what they paid for. Isn’t that their whole shtick now anyway with breaking down the fare classes even more. Instead of a W&B...
Then whose job is it? Clearly it IS their job because your absolutely be booted from F. Why is an extra legroom seat not treated as the same. W&B aside, if airlines are going to monetize EVERYTHING, they need to be held accountable for that monetization and ensuring that people get ONLY what they paid for. Isn’t that their whole shtick now anyway with breaking down the fare classes even more. Instead of a W&B issue, passenger 2 should make this a bait and switch issue; they paid for a service that was implicitly “exclusive” but then UAa failed to maintain that exclusivity.
Is there a United policy that allow or disallows seat changes, e.g. within the same paid seat category? I am not referring to moving to an extra legroom seat, simply moving into a less busy row or moving from a middle to an aisle seat if such is available.
I was on a UA flight from MIA to SFO. I got the exit row to myself due to Ua silver status. The exit row ahead of me only had 1 guy in the aisle. But we each had entire rows.
There was a few behind us that moved when the door closed. It was across from me and ahead of me. Still empty beside each of us. Then a few more went to...
I was on a UA flight from MIA to SFO. I got the exit row to myself due to Ua silver status. The exit row ahead of me only had 1 guy in the aisle. But we each had entire rows.
There was a few behind us that moved when the door closed. It was across from me and ahead of me. Still empty beside each of us. Then a few more went to the aisle across from him and then behind him. So 4 people moved. Including all thier stuff.
Now i wasn’t going to do or say anything because i still had my space and lets just say i could be accused of baseless identity politics if i did. So i let it be. I got it for free.
The other guy though turned them all in. The FA marched everyone of them back to thier middle seats. They protected and the FA was clear that they could pay the few to sit there (she even had the payment machine) …around 150 for the flight or move back.
Protests and insults to the FA about being cheap and nasty. But they all marched back to thier middle seats.
Im happy we didn’t have to get police involved.
Mads Campbell is entirely right. If I buy VIP access to an event and the area is half empty, I would feel entirely entitled to a refund if the organizers started allowing general admission ticket holders into the VIP.
You may feel entitled but it's the organizers event and if they felt like moving general admission into your 'VIP' section that is their choice. Same goes for an airline.
Of course it's their call. And, they'd be silly to do so, as thise who paid are less likely to do so in the future. If I'm buying an extra-legroom seat and have a choice of TWA or PanAm, I will book with the one that doesn't let people self upgrade.
Both sound like Karen's. At the end of the day you should expect to be seated in the seat you chose or were assigned with another passenger right next to you. If open seats are available then ask the cabin crew if it's ok to move.
A while back I was flying SFO to Tokyo in United economy and I was mentally prepared for a rough ten hours. I boarded in group two and...
Both sound like Karen's. At the end of the day you should expect to be seated in the seat you chose or were assigned with another passenger right next to you. If open seats are available then ask the cabin crew if it's ok to move.
A while back I was flying SFO to Tokyo in United economy and I was mentally prepared for a rough ten hours. I boarded in group two and took my window seat with the hope that my seatmate would be of reasonable size and clean. Amazingly nobody sat in my three seat block so I was delighted to have poor man's business. Before takeoff two women asked to move to the empty seats next to me. It was a little disappointing but I didn't feel like I had any right to complain or get bent out of shape. It ended up being a pretty pleasant flight
It's bizarre. Being able to move into an empty seat within the same cabin has always been normal apart from the likes of Ryanair etc (for obvious reasons). I consider it a default, except when crew makes an announcement that we should keep our assigned seats for weight and balance. There's a reason why those announcements are only made on select flight where pax distribution impacts performance and not on all flights. Never had a...
It's bizarre. Being able to move into an empty seat within the same cabin has always been normal apart from the likes of Ryanair etc (for obvious reasons). I consider it a default, except when crew makes an announcement that we should keep our assigned seats for weight and balance. There's a reason why those announcements are only made on select flight where pax distribution impacts performance and not on all flights. Never had a problem with that. But then again, my main and only requirement is as much privacy as possible so I only move if that gets me further away from other pax, not closer.
Are premium econ, Econ+/MCE, and basic economy the same cabin?
Moderately frequent United flier here, flying a lot of basic economy (unless I find a cheap cash upgrade):
I review the seatmap on the United app for empty rows (but not exit rows) immediately prior to boarding. If there is an empty row that I fancy, I board in group 2 (brandishing my Explorer Card, having already used my two United Club passes and two $50 hotel credits for rando positioning airport hotels [shout out...
Moderately frequent United flier here, flying a lot of basic economy (unless I find a cheap cash upgrade):
I review the seatmap on the United app for empty rows (but not exit rows) immediately prior to boarding. If there is an empty row that I fancy, I board in group 2 (brandishing my Explorer Card, having already used my two United Club passes and two $50 hotel credits for rando positioning airport hotels [shout out Charlotte Red Roof Inn for $49]), and firmly and quietly sit down in my chosen empty row. I have done this dozens of times, and not been called out in it. I then relax, deploy my laptop on one tray table, my mouse on another tray table, and observe the jammed domestic first class cabin featuring bad food and free-flowing poison while I complete remunerative tasks.
Don't be a loudmouth and enjoy the friendly skies.
The only problem I have is when I have paid for a blocked seat next to me (or as a Star Gold have a courtesy block as is common on airlines like Ethiopian) and then another passenger tries to occupy the seat in violation of the service (or perk) that I am entitled to. Your entitlement to change seats ends where that seat is something I have either paid for or entitled to as a...
The only problem I have is when I have paid for a blocked seat next to me (or as a Star Gold have a courtesy block as is common on airlines like Ethiopian) and then another passenger tries to occupy the seat in violation of the service (or perk) that I am entitled to. Your entitlement to change seats ends where that seat is something I have either paid for or entitled to as a benefit of my frequent flyer status.
It is almost always American tourists on safari who try to do this to take over exit row seats that require payment to actually assign, and they are also the ones who invariably argue with the cabin crew as to how this is not fair. Fair has nothing to do with business. If you want it, buy it. You don't get to take what someone else has already paid for.
It's not an issue for me, as I'm nearly always in F/J. But my attitude is the following. Let's say I get my normal aisle seat and at takeoff the seat next to me is empty. Hey, I won the lottery! Now, if I have a winning lottery ticket and someone steals it, I'm p!$$ed, more for the act than the loss. It makes no difference if they think it is right. Well, stealing my...
It's not an issue for me, as I'm nearly always in F/J. But my attitude is the following. Let's say I get my normal aisle seat and at takeoff the seat next to me is empty. Hey, I won the lottery! Now, if I have a winning lottery ticket and someone steals it, I'm p!$$ed, more for the act than the loss. It makes no difference if they think it is right. Well, stealing my extra space is wrong, too. If you get the great seat, you won the lottery and I won't take it from you. And, yes, I have no expectation of an empty seat or a winning lottery ticket.
"It's not an issue for me..." *proceeds to brag about only flying in premium cabins where this cannot possibly happen* Yet, you really should care, because IROPS happens, airlines sometimes oversell cabins, folks do get downgraded, so this very much can impact you, whether you like it or not.
I've noticed, across the various sites, regardless of the topic, you (This comes...) seem to always find a way to 'pull up the ladder behind' you....
"It's not an issue for me..." *proceeds to brag about only flying in premium cabins where this cannot possibly happen* Yet, you really should care, because IROPS happens, airlines sometimes oversell cabins, folks do get downgraded, so this very much can impact you, whether you like it or not.
I've noticed, across the various sites, regardless of the topic, you (This comes...) seem to always find a way to 'pull up the ladder behind' you. Put another way, 'I got mine,' or 'it doesn't affect me personally, so I don't care.' What you should be advocating for is better consumer protections, so that when bad things happen, there are better resolutions for more people. But, instead, you're still living the 'lift yourself up by your bootstraps' lifestyle. Good luck with that, Ohio.
The weight and balance argument from airline is bull. The calculations support occupying or not occupying every seat in the plane. I was pilot. Only in extreme circumstances of carrying heavy cargo aft is there ever a concern. The plane has measures to adjust for weight as it redistribute during flight, like burning fuel. SW airlines ran for years without seat assignments. What is the difference now? GREED Solution, don't say anything, just do it....
The weight and balance argument from airline is bull. The calculations support occupying or not occupying every seat in the plane. I was pilot. Only in extreme circumstances of carrying heavy cargo aft is there ever a concern. The plane has measures to adjust for weight as it redistribute during flight, like burning fuel. SW airlines ran for years without seat assignments. What is the difference now? GREED Solution, don't say anything, just do it. Nobody will question.
There are two issues here and if they're separated it makes it clear as to "who is right" (or not).
2. Karen wrote the FAA, but the FAA doesn''t enforce W&B and CG calculations. The PIC does and he relies on company SOPs. Some airlines assume a "base weight" for all seats, so you can move without issue -- on larger aircraft. On a (smaller) Dash-8 with two pax, if they want to move from...
There are two issues here and if they're separated it makes it clear as to "who is right" (or not).
2. Karen wrote the FAA, but the FAA doesn''t enforce W&B and CG calculations. The PIC does and he relies on company SOPs. Some airlines assume a "base weight" for all seats, so you can move without issue -- on larger aircraft. On a (smaller) Dash-8 with two pax, if they want to move from front left to aft right they should clear it with the flight deck.
It is unlikely the FAA has the mandate, time, or resources to review and airline's policies vis a vis W&B and CG envelopes, let alone do more than send Karen a "thank you for bringing this to our attention" F.O. canned response.
1. Pax asks a good question, and maybe (picture and Gary's analysis) there weren't 10 totally empty rows. Really it makes little difference. Once the door is closed and so long as the FSB light isn't illuminated there should be no restrictions on moving to similarly situated seats. It's "OBVIOUS" one can't self-ugrade to e.g. Polaris Suites, La Premiere, or even run of the mill domestic F, which is nothing as good as baggage hold on International carriers.
However, going from economy for midgets to economy for people who don't like being pretzels for 2-6 hrs, if an empty seat is there it costs the airline NOTHING to allow someone willing to get up, leave their oversized carryon many seats behind, and "be movin' on up" to that deluxe economy plus seat "in the sky-y-y."
Some may argue that the airlines disallow this to force people into purchasing those "premium" seats. Call it what you like but if there are 10 rows of it sitting empty perhaps bludgeoning the leggy pax in economy is not the answer.
SJ spoke well and this topic and I tried not to duplicate it. I'm hold an FAA commercial pilot certificate -- helicopters only -- but the regulations apply to all of us.
"However, going from economy for midgets to economy for people who don't like being pretzels for 2-6 hrs, if an empty seat is there it costs the airline NOTHING to allow someone..."
I completely disagree - it costs the airline the goodwill of those people who paid for those better seats in the first place. I recognize that it could be looked at as paying to guarantee a better seat, while those who elect...
"However, going from economy for midgets to economy for people who don't like being pretzels for 2-6 hrs, if an empty seat is there it costs the airline NOTHING to allow someone..."
I completely disagree - it costs the airline the goodwill of those people who paid for those better seats in the first place. I recognize that it could be looked at as paying to guarantee a better seat, while those who elect not to pay for the better seat are not guaranteed a chance to move up. But, if the flight is so empty that, as in the example cited by Ben, someone thinks it shouldn't be a problem to move up, and I paid for the seat I'd be pretty annoyed. This is especially true because as a tall guy, for any flight over a couple of hours I have to pay for a better seat just to make sure I'll won't be completely cramped.
I agree.
Just because J class is empty. You can move up?
A lot of the economy plus type seats come with free booze now too. So it’s not right to move up as it comes with more service. (Except UA of course).
Last week I flew on an AA international flight, 772. Coach had 121 empty seats, with 21 non-rev on standby. The first several rows (MCE) were mostly empty. But they gave the non-rev's pretty much a row to each person. One guy in back section wanted to move to a bulk head - and finally an AA FA made him pay for it.
I hate it when I in extra row with empty middle and...
Last week I flew on an AA international flight, 772. Coach had 121 empty seats, with 21 non-rev on standby. The first several rows (MCE) were mostly empty. But they gave the non-rev's pretty much a row to each person. One guy in back section wanted to move to a bulk head - and finally an AA FA made him pay for it.
I hate it when I in extra row with empty middle and someone with a boarding group 9 bp - moves up to the middle seat. Now I believe AA will do something about it.
Imagine if people were not so damned entitled to things they didn’t pay for. Want an aisle or window seat? Pay for it. Want extra leg room? Pay for it. Want to sit next to your boyfriend? Book seats together, or endure the heartache of sitting apart for a couple hours. People need to grow up.
SJ - Any licensed pilot (including myself) will tell you that weight & balance in a plane is very much a real requirement.
The cargo payload of an A350 is approx. 17 tons and 787-10 24.4 tonnes (a tonne being 10% larger than a ton).
100 passengers would be about 8 tons. SO if they all moved from row 60 to first class that could be an issue, but 10 passengers moving a few rows would be undetectable..
During my 1K days with UA, I once complained to an FA when I was in a bulkhead seat and someone sat next to me in what was supposed to an empty seat (as per the seat map). The FA asked the errant passenger to go back to their assigned seat. I felt bad but it was a 14 hour flight.
I do not agree with your comment that the second passenger should not make a formal complaint (I assume that this is after an unsuccessful attempt to get the airline to reply).
I'm sure United contacted her personally to apologize for allowing other passengers to self-upgrade (not).
Getting any response these days usually requires a bit more at stake - like for other matters filing a small claims court action.
The most egregious move was on porter. SFO to YYZ….empty flight. Inwas flying the extra legroom seat. I was the only one in three rows. A guy comes from the back and sits across from me with no ear phones and blaring his phone. I politely ask to have ear phones. He says he doesn’t have any and that i can move to the back of the aircraft if im bothered. Ugh. I paid to...
The most egregious move was on porter. SFO to YYZ….empty flight. Inwas flying the extra legroom seat. I was the only one in three rows. A guy comes from the back and sits across from me with no ear phones and blaring his phone. I politely ask to have ear phones. He says he doesn’t have any and that i can move to the back of the aircraft if im bothered. Ugh. I paid to sit here. You didnt. He said tough and he can move seats.
I march to the galley. Told the FAs. He is immediately escorted back to his seat and must have ear phones and they will watch him like a hawk. I got the evil eye. But if he was just polite and used phones i would have said nothing. I had the space beside me.
The problem is that if airline ok this and passengers know this, they'll compete for seats and move seats before the plane is even finish boarding. You know it will happen. And that will absolutely affect boarding time, overhead bin confusion especially on disembarking and increase fighting.
If it's just within the same class would basic economy be able to move to economy? Can you tell which empty seat is economy, basic preferred or...
The problem is that if airline ok this and passengers know this, they'll compete for seats and move seats before the plane is even finish boarding. You know it will happen. And that will absolutely affect boarding time, overhead bin confusion especially on disembarking and increase fighting.
If it's just within the same class would basic economy be able to move to economy? Can you tell which empty seat is economy, basic preferred or plus?
I see this all the time even in first class outside the us where the middle seat is blocked and people from the back jump next to me even though the plane is not done boarding and the FA just says you shouldn't do that but don't really enforce it. I personally don't care. I paid for my seat and that's it. Don't care if you manage a better seat without paying the difference. More power to you. However, if you tell me if I pay for economy and can get econ+ during in-flight fight club then I'm in.
Planes, shmlanes!
Whenever I attend the opera or live theatre, I always purchase the cheapest seat in the back row of the upper most balcony. Then, after curtain rise, I march directly to the front of the theater and demand the best open seat that was either unsold or purchased by a no-show.
If I anticipate a sold-out house I book two seats in the balcony and bring along a spoiled child who will cry...
Planes, shmlanes!
Whenever I attend the opera or live theatre, I always purchase the cheapest seat in the back row of the upper most balcony. Then, after curtain rise, I march directly to the front of the theater and demand the best open seat that was either unsold or purchased by a no-show.
If I anticipate a sold-out house I book two seats in the balcony and bring along a spoiled child who will cry and scream on demand. I bring the screaming brat to the front of the theater and demand that random patrons exchange two prime seats for ours so that the child can have a better view of the stage. Of course, I also need one of those seats for myself so that the child will have a familiar adult at their side.
The second approach above is not available to me for weekday matinees because the child is currently enrolled in our city’s finest influencer academy.
lol when you said "first commenter" i got indignant and spent a solid couple of minutes trying to figure out what i said that read as entitled
weight balance is total BS when it's convenient for airlines to upgrade passengers
Airlines have made an art form of charging different prices for seemingly identical seats. Other than obviously differences like exit seats or seats with clearly differentiated looks, economy seats are similar. Recently an airline asked for more money for me to preselect a seat on a short flight. I ignored their request and took the seat assigned at check in. The flight was empty. Thirty passengers in a plane with a capacity of 180, and...
Airlines have made an art form of charging different prices for seemingly identical seats. Other than obviously differences like exit seats or seats with clearly differentiated looks, economy seats are similar. Recently an airline asked for more money for me to preselect a seat on a short flight. I ignored their request and took the seat assigned at check in. The flight was empty. Thirty passengers in a plane with a capacity of 180, and yet the carrier still tried to fleece me. If there is a nicer open seat in the section of the plane that I was initially assigned or purchased available after the doors close then I will move to it.
I get it that it then defeats the purpose of basic economy offering. There might also be a weight and balance issue. I'm seeing more flights where it looks like coach is more like 70% full. (Although first continues to be completely full). Presumably at least for certain airlines between credit card income, upsells, ancillary fees and higher fares they can make a profit at somewhat lower load factors. That encourages passengers to want to move around.
She lost me at…‘This is the first time I’ve flown United in years”.