Delta Adds Los Angeles To Auckland Route

Delta Adds Los Angeles To Auckland Route

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For the first time ever, Delta will offer flights to New Zealand, which is an exciting development.

Delta adds New Zealand flights as of October 2023

As of October 28, 2023, Delta will launch a new daily flight between Los Angeles (LAX) and Auckland (AKL). Delta will use an Airbus A350-900 for the route. Flights are expected to go on sale as of Saturday, January 21, 2023.

The flight will operate with the following schedule (it’s not entirely clear to me if the route will be year-round or seasonal):

DL65 Los Angeles to Auckland departing 10:30PM arriving 7:35AM (+2 days)
DL64 Auckland to Los Angeles departing 2:00PM arriving 6:05AM

As far as Delta’s long haul destinations out of Los Angeles go, this service complements flights to London, Paris, Sydney, Tahiti, and Tokyo.

Here’s how Justin Erbacci, CEO of Los Angeles World Airports, describes this new route:

“LAX continues to grow its global network of destinations that are connecting Angelenos to every corner of the globe, and Delta’s addition of nonstop service from Los Angeles to New Zealand is in lockstep with the airline’s commitment to expand and improve service to our region. Coupled with Delta’s international additions to Sydney and Tahiti, this is another exciting result of the ongoing and strong collaboration between LAX and Delta Air Lines as we connect more people across the Pacific and beyond.”

Delta will start flying to Auckland, New Zealand

Delta will be the only US airline flying between LAX and New Zealand

Interestingly enough, Delta is the last of the “big three” US carriers to fly to New Zealand, though it will be the only US airline flying between Los Angeles and Auckland:

  • American flies from Dallas to Auckland
  • United flies from San Francisco to Auckland

While American used to fly from Los Angeles to Auckland, the carrier has been decreasing its long haul presence at LAX, instead focusing on its DFW hub.

In the Los Angeles to Auckland market, Delta will be going head-to-head again Air New Zealand, which operates multiple daily frequencies between the cities for most of the year.

Delta will be competing against Air New Zealand on this route

I’m curious to see how Delta performs in the market, and if the service is seasonal or year-round (I’m guessing the former — if it is year-round, I can’t imagine we’ll see daily frequencies). All three US carriers seem to struggle at Los Angeles with long haul service. It’s obviously a major market, though also an incredibly competitive one, where none of the “big three” carriers really have a fortress hub or major advantage.

We’ll see if Delta can make this Auckland service work, especially without any real connecting traffic in the South Pacific. Virgin Australia had dumped Delta in favor of United, so there isn’t even the potential for connections between New Zealand and Australia.

Bottom line

Delta will start flying to New Zealand for the first time as of later this year. As of late October 2023, the airline will fly daily between Los Angeles and Auckland with an Airbus A350.

While Delta is the last of the global US carriers to fly to New Zealand, it’ll be the only one flying there from Los Angeles.

What do you make of Delta’s new service to Auckland?

Conversations (68)
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  1. Tim Dunn Diamond

    Since the discussion here focused alot on the cabin configuration of the ex-Latam A350s that will operate this as well as other transatlantic Delta flights this summer, Delta announced that they have signed a contract with Airbus Services to reconfigure the ex-Latam fleet of 9 aircraft to DL standards, without a timeline specified. Presumably, Delta placed orders for new cabin seats, lavs, galleys and other cabin materials shortly after they began acquiring the ex-Latam aircraft...

    Since the discussion here focused alot on the cabin configuration of the ex-Latam A350s that will operate this as well as other transatlantic Delta flights this summer, Delta announced that they have signed a contract with Airbus Services to reconfigure the ex-Latam fleet of 9 aircraft to DL standards, without a timeline specified. Presumably, Delta placed orders for new cabin seats, lavs, galleys and other cabin materials shortly after they began acquiring the ex-Latam aircraft - which are leased - starting almost 18 months ago.
    There were rumors that Delta is also going to reconfigure its own new build A350s with a new and larger Delta One Suite and fewer total seats onboard so the reconfiguration of the ex-Latam aircraft could fit into that plan.
    Delta has no new build A350s scheduled for delivery this year - based on its 10K filed in Feb of 2022 but has six scheduled for 2024. If they act on the A350-1000 rumor - which their increased capex indicates they might have already done - including the undelivered 5 ex-bound for QR aircraft which are in storage in France - Delta could have up to 20 A350s that need new cabins in 2024 and beyond. They could have pushed some of their new build A350s for 2024 in order to allow the cabin supply chain to catch up.
    The new Delta pilot contract and global scope agreement which is being voted on by Delta pilots requires DL to restore its 2019 global widebody capacity by the end of 2023 and then match any growth in flights which its codeshare partners - not just JV partners - add on at least a 1:1 basis going forward
    Delta could not have met that agreement without putting the ex-Latam A350s into international service instead of just to Hawaii and will still have to aggressively grow its international network if its partners are also going to grow. Approval of the Korean-Asiana merger will require that Delta significantly increase its presence to Seoul in order for Delta to codeshare on any of the new transpacific flights from that merger; there have been multiple rumors of new Seoul service on Delta.

    1. MaxPower Guest

      Yet another misleading load of nonsense from Tim Dunn.

      There's really too much nonsense to go into here with the way you feel like you have to be Delta Public Relations...
      But the idea that Delta "HAD" to put these A350s into service because of the pilot contract is just dumb logic.

      Contract negotiations are made up of two sides. The Union and HQ. To say Delta "HAD" to fly these subpar...

      Yet another misleading load of nonsense from Tim Dunn.

      There's really too much nonsense to go into here with the way you feel like you have to be Delta Public Relations...
      But the idea that Delta "HAD" to put these A350s into service because of the pilot contract is just dumb logic.

      Contract negotiations are made up of two sides. The Union and HQ. To say Delta "HAD" to fly these subpar A350s to meet a scope requirement that the Company agreed to is just "tail wagging the dog" logic. HQ decided they didn't care about product standards as much as they cared about getting a pilot deal done. That is what it is. It's not bad, it's not good. It just is. But to say Delta was forced to fly these A350s as is just isn't true and betrays your knowledge of union negotiations but your love to spout off anyway.

      Delta made a choice to lower their product standards with these A350s and the Lion Air 737s. End of story. The company decided to use that lowering of product standards as a VERY small part of their pilot negotiations since they were already flying the LATAM A350s anyway long before the AIP or TA. And once again, they knew these A350s were coming before the 77L were sold off with the J cabin in those cabins. The irony of Air India flying the Delta One product but Delta isn't on a 14 hour flight can't be lost on even you, Tim.

      Call a spade a spade and stop trying to do your silly Passport Plum Spin. Nobody forced Delta to do anything whether selling their J seats to Air India or agreeing to a pilot contract that you say forced a subpar product. Delta made an active choice. Frankly, it isn't even really a bad choice if you somehow really value being the first to have a pilot deal, but it is a subpar product choice.

    2. Tim Dunn Diamond

      there is nothing misleading.
      The only thing that is obvious is that you want to create your own new rules, apply them to others so that you can argue that they failed when you aren't willing to apply the same standards yourself or the companies you support.
      Not a single airline has a consistent product across all platforms and Delta never said that they would have a consistent product that would never be...

      there is nothing misleading.
      The only thing that is obvious is that you want to create your own new rules, apply them to others so that you can argue that they failed when you aren't willing to apply the same standards yourself or the companies you support.
      Not a single airline has a consistent product across all platforms and Delta never said that they would have a consistent product that would never be broken.
      Delta did buy 9 used A350s that they want to put in longhaul international service, they have a pending pilot contract that requires them to restore their network to pre-pandemic levels of flying, and the market is red hot to support adding those aircraft right now.

      You choose to argue because you can't accept the basic facts of the industry which is that Delta has invested a higher percentage of its fleet spending on new generation widebody aircraft than either American or United or most global airlines and, as a result, Delta will be a powerful force in the international market for years to come because cost efficiency matters the most on longhaul flights and Delta is in a better position in that regard than AA or UA and will be for years to come.

      Your perceived "rules" about service standards apply in your mind and nowhere else.

  2. Doug DeNunzio Guest

    Nice to know what that is.

  3. Anon Guest

    I wonder if Virgins decision to pull the pin on its partnership with Delta played a role here? Because usually Delta is very conservative with their choice of destinations compared to competitors like United.

    Previously Delta would just fly to Sydney and funnel New Zealand or other Australian cities outside Sydney through Virgins services.

    1. Anon Guest

      *funnel passengers to other cities in Aus or to NZ through Sydney.

    2. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      Virgin doesn't fly to anywhere in New Zealand anymore, so the net effect is rather moot.

    3. Tim Dunn Diamond

      People said that having Virgin Australia going to United would hurt Delta in Australia and yet Delta added 3 flights/week to SYD this current winter and is doing it again for an even longer period in the coming northern winter.

    4. Leo Guam Guest

      It did affect DL negatively and UA positively. Both now, and relative to their respective positions in ‘19. UA has OZ/NZ connectivity with VA and Air NZ which DL now doesn’t. VA also doesn’t have wide bodies, which means UA gets to do the entirety of the long haul flying vs. VA/DL partnership pre-COVID.

      DL= 10x weekly comprised of LAX-SYD
      vs
      UA=41weekly comprised of
      SFO-SYD 10x weekly
      SFO-MEL daily
      SFO-BNE 3x weekly
      LAX-SYD daily
      LAX-MEL daily
      IAH-SYD daily

    5. Tim Dunn Diamond

      and your point?
      Delta was flying to Australia 1X/day since it started service. They have increased it.
      There were people that said that DL would be harmed by losing the relationship with Virgin Australia and yet Delta has increased service so those prognostications clearly were wrong.

      There is way too much chatter about the value of partnerships to make or break an airline's ability to make a route work.

      DL will make AKL...

      and your point?
      Delta was flying to Australia 1X/day since it started service. They have increased it.
      There were people that said that DL would be harmed by losing the relationship with Virgin Australia and yet Delta has increased service so those prognostications clearly were wrong.

      There is way too much chatter about the value of partnerships to make or break an airline's ability to make a route work.

      DL will make AKL work based on Delta's own merits and not whether there is a partner

    6. Leo Guam Guest

      That DL was adversely affected and UA benefited from the VA partnership even though you said otherwise. Showed in the last two quarters too. Doesn’t require high reading comprehension, Tim.

    7. Tim Dunn Diamond

      except you and no one else has proven at all that Delta was adversely affected.
      Stop running from one site on the internet (Gary's to this one) because you make claims that you can't support.

      If Delta was harmed by the cancellation of the end of the Virgin Australia partnership, it would have been apparent by now. The fact that Delta is restarting its winter 2023-24 extra flights to/from SYD earlier than they did last year proves that your argument is FALSE.

      MOVE ON

    8. Leo Guam Guest

      You put incorrect information and parade it as truth, then complain when corrected. UA upped SFO-SYD to 10x weekly in December, upping to 2x daily later this year and launched a new route to BNE in October.

      DLs measly 3x increase is in response to UA’s new launches aided with its new VA partnership.

    9. Tim Dunn Diamond

      Who cares what United did?

      If Delta was harmed then even 3 more flights wouldn’t make sense for Delta

      Ps instead of arguing how about you recognize that Qantas has pulled huge amounts of capacity out of the market in addition to the loss of long haul flights by Virgin Australia
      Unlike you, I know that two carriers can both benefit

    10. Leo Guam Guest

      Because QF and VA pulling out of Australia gives clear opportunity for DL to increase beyond 10x weekly flights for the entire OZ market. But they didn’t, and United did.

    11. Tim Dunn Diamond

      You and United's social media team can't let go of the notion that Scott Kirby thrives on of United's superiority.

      If the loss of the Virgin Australia partnership hurt Delta, then they could not have rationally added even 3 flights/week.
      But they have and so you childishly argue about what United has done as if that justifies your statement that Delta was hurt.

      Delta has clearly not been hurt but has benefitted from the...

      You and United's social media team can't let go of the notion that Scott Kirby thrives on of United's superiority.

      If the loss of the Virgin Australia partnership hurt Delta, then they could not have rationally added even 3 flights/week.
      But they have and so you childishly argue about what United has done as if that justifies your statement that Delta was hurt.

      Delta has clearly not been hurt but has benefitted from the reduction in capacity by Australian airlines.
      The fact that United added more capacity doesn't make Delta a loser.

      Your logic is as flimsy as your persistence.
      Here and on Gary's site.

    12. Leo Guam Guest

      Tim,

      Again, lack of critical thinking skills. DL increased 3x weekly, UA increased 6x weekly which included a new route with a further 10x weekly increase. DL’s partial growth vs UA full growth.

      DLs growth pales to UA who benefited by VA switching by the dominating US airline on the US-OZ market.

      You and whine and complain when corrected by others. Elongate, misdirect, and data deficient as always.

    13. Tim Dunn Diamond

      you are truly dense.
      Delta was not harmed if it increased its service AT ALL.
      What United did is immaterial

    14. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      I too would have to question your "logic" in claiming that because carrier-A does something, then it's somehow express evidence of carrier-B being "harmed."

      This industry doesn't really work like that.

      For one thing, that argument fails because the only real detriment in the VA move, is to those meticulous about SkyMiles/Elite accrual. As blasphemous as it may sound to the likes of us, those such individuals are really a low percentage of their (or...

      I too would have to question your "logic" in claiming that because carrier-A does something, then it's somehow express evidence of carrier-B being "harmed."

      This industry doesn't really work like that.

      For one thing, that argument fails because the only real detriment in the VA move, is to those meticulous about SkyMiles/Elite accrual. As blasphemous as it may sound to the likes of us, those such individuals are really a low percentage of their (or any airline's) patronage.

      DL still maintains an extensive interline agreement with VA, even though they no longer codeshare, and thus will happily sell you a single-ticket itinerary to MEL/BNE/PER/ADL/etc even now-- difference being that DL keeps more of the revenue.

      Some might call that an advantage. Without all the numbers, it's tough to assess, one way or the other.

    15. Tim Dunn Diamond

      thank you, ConcordeBoy.
      And the fact that Delta and United both believe they can succeed by adding capacity should be reason for rejoicing rather than arguing about who got the better end of the deal - or that anyone had to be harmed for the other to win

    16. Leo Guam Guest

      @ConcordeBoy

      Fair argument as UA similarly kept their interlines with QF and JQ. Though I think the elite benefit addition/loss such as lounge access for passengers previously without/without access is worth recognizing. There’s noticeable demand for lounge access in the US given the crowding. The fact that this was extended to one carrier and removed from another shows that were was consequence from the partnership switch. But correct, more is needed to tell how much...

      @ConcordeBoy

      Fair argument as UA similarly kept their interlines with QF and JQ. Though I think the elite benefit addition/loss such as lounge access for passengers previously without/without access is worth recognizing. There’s noticeable demand for lounge access in the US given the crowding. The fact that this was extended to one carrier and removed from another shows that were was consequence from the partnership switch. But correct, more is needed to tell how much that’ll substantially affect the carriers moving forward.

      Cheers to sticking to the point.

    17. Tim Dunn Diamond

      It would have been nice if you would have stuck to the case and admitted you had none pages ago

      Delta and United win at the expense of Australian airlines
      Such is the beauty of Open Skies
      When someone slips on a banana, someone else dances

    18. Leo Guam Guest

      @Tim

      Never met a person until you who thought an airline’s social media team was following them around and out to get them.

      Paranoid, obsessed, and delusional.

    19. Tim Dunn Diamond

      Nice cover for just failing to admit you were wrong from the first word you posted on this article
      And you would do yourself well to use your own real name and explain why you and a half dozen other anonymous user names exploded the comments sections of multiple articles on this site all within minutes of each other this morning all defending United and trashing Delta on top of your rabid and rambling...

      Nice cover for just failing to admit you were wrong from the first word you posted on this article
      And you would do yourself well to use your own real name and explain why you and a half dozen other anonymous user names exploded the comments sections of multiple articles on this site all within minutes of each other this morning all defending United and trashing Delta on top of your rabid and rambling incessant posts on Gary’s site.
      No it is not all a coincidence
      You and your ilk can’t stand that United’s narrative of global dominance is being proven to be false and the success it did have is history

    20. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      @Leo Guam

      "Though I think the elite benefit addition/loss such as lounge access for passengers previously without/without access is worth recognizing"

      Sure, but again, that's mitigated by them still having access to the SkyTeam lounge in Terminal 1 next to gate 24.

      So an annoyance, but hardly debilitating at all.

    21. Leo Guam Guest

      @ConcordeBoy

      The access loss were lounges used for onward domestic connections in SYD in the domestic terminal. The international lounges for VA were EY.

      So no access there, but also on the flight to SYD from somewhere like MEL or BNE. Hopefully DL does does something similar with Rex.

      Cheers

    22. MaxPower Guest

      Delta lost:
      1. a JV partner in VA
      2. VA connectivity in Australia past Sydney

      Only in Tim Dunn's fantasyland does losing a JV and a partner to a far bigger player in the US-Australia market, United, equal a win-win for Delta. Delta hasn't even backfilled the JV capacity they lost with VA from pre-pandemic.

      Welcome to the Tim's sugar(passport)plum fairyland. It's full of widgets and bellinis dancing across the Atlanta skyline and...

      Delta lost:
      1. a JV partner in VA
      2. VA connectivity in Australia past Sydney

      Only in Tim Dunn's fantasyland does losing a JV and a partner to a far bigger player in the US-Australia market, United, equal a win-win for Delta. Delta hasn't even backfilled the JV capacity they lost with VA from pre-pandemic.

      Welcome to the Tim's sugar(passport)plum fairyland. It's full of widgets and bellinis dancing across the Atlanta skyline and no action ever hurts delta... EVER. Even if Delta says it does.

      But, you know you've won the argument when Tim does his usual "you're dense and wrong" spiel and randomly goes off on United and their social media team.

    23. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      @MaxPower

      Maybe spend less time creepily obsessing over another contributor, and more time checking your facts?

      DL still maintains an extensive interline agreement with VA despite no longer codesharing, so the connectivity is still there.

      With VA no longer operating longhaul widebody flights with its own metal in concert with DL, the argument could conceivably be made that DL did indeed luck out: they keep the connectivity, but now also keep essentially all money...

      @MaxPower

      Maybe spend less time creepily obsessing over another contributor, and more time checking your facts?

      DL still maintains an extensive interline agreement with VA despite no longer codesharing, so the connectivity is still there.

      With VA no longer operating longhaul widebody flights with its own metal in concert with DL, the argument could conceivably be made that DL did indeed luck out: they keep the connectivity, but now also keep essentially all money on the longhaul segment, rather than split.

      Without the exact numbers, which no one here would have: who's to say?

      Essentially the main "losers" are those who account for every MQM possible, as they'll no longer receive such credit on VA-operated segments.

    24. Leo Guam Guest

      The only loss is elite accrual? It goes beyond that. Domestic lounge access is lost, reciprocal elite benefit is lost, award redemption on VA is lost, etc.

    25. Tim Dunn Diamond

      thank you.
      Delta INCREASED its service to Australia and not decreased it as so many internet pundits predicted.

      Qantas has reduced their own service to the US while Virgin Australia is out of the long haul market.

      Delta and United have increased service; American is offering less seats because of using a smaller aircraft.

      The internet pundits famously don't understand the factors that really drive airline decisions.

  4. Just saying Guest

    This route seems more United

    1. Tim Dunn Diamond

      Africa seemed like it was more Delta but United seemed to jump in.

      Geneva from the US has been all Star for more than a decade but Delta jumped in.

      Competition is good. Creating narratives that "this market belongs to airline or alliance X" is precisely why other airlines see opportunity

  5. George Woods Guest

    What would be the redemption through VS? Hoping for Delta one!

  6. Jake Guest

    Supposedly on the LATAM A359s too. Delta looks to be the only carrier US>NZ without all aisle access and without premium economy.

    1. Tim Dunn Diamond

      Delta just updated its summer schedules and the ex-Latam A350s are going to be used on ATL-ATH, CDG, and MXP while frequencies are increased on other routes esp. from JFK.
      The ex-Latam A350s are very efficient mass transportation machines with the highest capacity of any Delta aircraft - similar to what other airlines have on their A350-1000s.
      Many routes and added capacities are being started 2 months before the typical peak summer travel...

      Delta just updated its summer schedules and the ex-Latam A350s are going to be used on ATL-ATH, CDG, and MXP while frequencies are increased on other routes esp. from JFK.
      The ex-Latam A350s are very efficient mass transportation machines with the highest capacity of any Delta aircraft - similar to what other airlines have on their A350-1000s.
      Many routes and added capacities are being started 2 months before the typical peak summer travel season so Delta clearly sees Europe as being very strong.
      Delta also is dropping DTW-NGO and is pushing back PDX-ICN again, indicating that Europe is where the action will be.
      Given that summer is typically less business travel related, I doubt if they will face pushback for using the ex-Latam aircraft. The loss of higher revenue from the lack of premium select is undoubtedly offset by the higher number of coach seats.
      And 2/3 of the business class seats on the ex-Latam 359s still have aisle access.

    2. MaxPower Guest

      So strange, it's almost like Delta could've considered the lack of Premium economy and whether or not having all aisle access business class in their own LOPA for an A350.

      If only Delta had their own A350s where we could compare whether or not Delta thinks incremental Premium economy revenue is worth the extra space or whether all aisle access is an industry standard. If only...

      Oh wait. We do and we also know...

      So strange, it's almost like Delta could've considered the lack of Premium economy and whether or not having all aisle access business class in their own LOPA for an A350.

      If only Delta had their own A350s where we could compare whether or not Delta thinks incremental Premium economy revenue is worth the extra space or whether all aisle access is an industry standard. If only...

      Oh wait. We do and we also know Delta plans to change these LATAM planes in the future at some point. In the meantime, Delta has the worst product in the market to NZ. Good for them. I hope it works out for them.

      Cool new route for Delta and good for them, but call a spade a spade. Delta purposefully decided their own fleet standards were no longer worth it for a few years -- whether no wifi on a narrow body from Lion Air, all aisle access on a 14 hour flight to NZ, or purposefully not installing premium economy. And before you start your weird rant about supply chains, they've known about the LATAM A350s for years, long before they sold the 77L with the new J cabin still in them.

      Seriously, Tim. Delta can defend their own decisions. You can go back to your couch and not reply to every delta blog article comment with your tiring biased view about Delta.

    3. Tim Dunn Diamond

      we knew you had to show up, minipower.

      Delta acquired these A350s over a year ago and they have largely been in storage. The Atlantic is clearly strong; United confirmed that last year.

      Delta is not going to miss the opportunity to throw as much capacity into the transatlantic market as possible. These airplanes are not only the largest by seat count in the DL fleet but they are also the most fuel efficient.

      United...

      we knew you had to show up, minipower.

      Delta acquired these A350s over a year ago and they have largely been in storage. The Atlantic is clearly strong; United confirmed that last year.

      Delta is not going to miss the opportunity to throw as much capacity into the transatlantic market as possible. These airplanes are not only the largest by seat count in the DL fleet but they are also the most fuel efficient.

      United resurrected 777-200s that were grounded because of engine failures because they wanted to have more capacity - and these A350s not only have no repeated history of engine failures but they are 25% more fuel efficient than any 777 in United's fleet

      United's 777 fleet is a hodgepodge of configurations with many aircraft not even having premium economy and others without direct aisle access and United seemed to do ok.

      Perhaps it was actually United that lowered the industry standard and gave Delta reason to do the same thing this year.

      Unlike the United 777s, the Delta A350s will get new interiors AND be very fuel efficient.

    4. Leo Guam Guest

      Except that DL trailed in profitability the last two quarters, sorry to burst your bubble.

    5. Tim Dunn Diamond

      on an airline to airline basis, they didn't. DL's margin was lower than UAL's in the 4Q2022 because the refinery doesn't generate margins as high as airline operations including maintenance overhaul services and loyalty revenue.
      You made that same argument on Gary's site and the facts were presented to you and you failed to comprehend them after dozens of replies = so don't show up on another site trying to push the same drivel.

    6. Leo Guam Guest

      What are you talking about? On an airline to airline basis they did. That’s why UAs GAAP margin was higher. Both DL margins include fuel savings. Adjusted margin includes the additional 3rd refinery sales and MTM adjustments.

      You asked me to correct you over there, I did and now you complain. Ridiculous.

    7. Tim Dunn Diamond

      including the refinery is not airline to airline and you know it.
      Delta's refinery generates alot of revenue but at a lower margin - which is why DAL's GAAP margin was lower than United's.
      Excluding the refinery and the other exclusions to come up with an adjusted margin shows that DAL's margin is higher

      and you still argue about one quarter when Delta handedly outperformed United for the entire year and both...

      including the refinery is not airline to airline and you know it.
      Delta's refinery generates alot of revenue but at a lower margin - which is why DAL's GAAP margin was lower than United's.
      Excluding the refinery and the other exclusions to come up with an adjusted margin shows that DAL's margin is higher

      and you still argue about one quarter when Delta handedly outperformed United for the entire year and both airlines are guiding that Delta will outperform United in 2023.

      You and United's social media team are circling the wagons to try to defend Scott Kirby's notion of superiority - and have called out the dogs on anyone that dares challenge Kirby's notion of UA's superiority.

      If United really outperformed Delta and that was a sustained reality, then United would be worth a whole lot more than it is.

      United has settled back into being the middle of the pack legacy US carrier but you and Scott Kirby can't accept that and so you flimsily argue under a half dozen user names on multiple sites to try to defend something that only you and United believes to be true.

      none of which changes the fact that United has operated widebody aircraft for years that do not offer direct aisle access in business class and seem to have done just fine.

      And yet you and a few others now want to make a federal case out of Delta doing the same - but using much more fuel efficient aircraft to do the same thing.

    8. Leo Guam Guest

      Do you seriously think United has a social media team out to get you? Paranoid and delusional. Complete waste of time for me and everyone else to engage with you.

    9. Tim Dunn Diamond

      United clearly has a rabid bunch of people that argue incessantly against anyone that dares challenge the notion of their superiority - and no one does that on aviation related social media more than me.
      You can tell us what your affiliation is to United along w/ the rest of the anonymous/pseudonym posters that operate on multiple sites - and get basic facts wrong.

      Delta clearly is well aware of the risks to its...

      United clearly has a rabid bunch of people that argue incessantly against anyone that dares challenge the notion of their superiority - and no one does that on aviation related social media more than me.
      You can tell us what your affiliation is to United along w/ the rest of the anonymous/pseudonym posters that operate on multiple sites - and get basic facts wrong.

      Delta clearly is well aware of the risks to its brand to not offering premium select and direct aisle access on every transatlantic flight in 2023. but since UA has done it for years and DL didn't offer consistent PS in 2022, there really isn't the huge risk that you and others hope exists.

      As for profitability, United had a one quarter financial advantage because they held onto a bunch of worn-out 777s which a history of engine failures and used those aircraft in the summer of 2022 to add a bunch of capacity. Delta is now using very young fuel efficient A350s to offer the same product inconsistency that has characterized United and you and the rest of your anonymous United fan club users have come unglued.
      Since all of the markets where Delta is offering the ex-Latam A350s are highly seasonal and have high numbers of vacationers that travel in pairs, whatever configuration normally applies to Delta One and Polaris aircraft doesn't apply in those markets.

      Delta will either do fine with its strategy of aggressively using its ex-Latam A350s this summer to add transatlantic capacity or we will all know about it.

      What will happen is that Delta's transatlantic revenue will dramatically jump in 2023 and since it already has many of the staff to support this extra flying, their margins will jump too.

      You argue about one quarter because you don't really want to admit that United's single quarter overperformance won't happen again.

    10. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      "Cool new route for Delta and good for them, but call a spade a spade. Delta purposefully decided their own fleet standards were no longer worth it for a few years"

      That's one way to spin it (towards a particular bias).

      Another would be that DL's realized that it effed-up by getting rid of the 777s too early/easily, and thus when given the choice between (1) fleet conformity vs. (2A) fleet capacity + (2B) fleet...

      "Cool new route for Delta and good for them, but call a spade a spade. Delta purposefully decided their own fleet standards were no longer worth it for a few years"

      That's one way to spin it (towards a particular bias).

      Another would be that DL's realized that it effed-up by getting rid of the 777s too early/easily, and thus when given the choice between (1) fleet conformity vs. (2A) fleet capacity + (2B) fleet capability, it chose the combined option 2.

      Doubt there are many airlines would've chosen otherwise.

      E.g. CX and LH, who are currently doing the exact same with their respective fleets, but with a conspicuous lack of whining from people who can't seem to let the concept go, when regarding DL. Odd.

    11. Tim Dunn Diamond

      No. Just no.
      By next summer, Delta will have readded more new A330-900 and A350s since the 777s were retired. The ex-Latam 350s are growth capacity
      American got rid of older widebodies and chose not to replace them
      United held onto older widebodies so it had capacity last summer
      Delta has the most fuel efficient widebody fleet of the three
      Delta will sacrifice product consistency for one year until the...

      No. Just no.
      By next summer, Delta will have readded more new A330-900 and A350s since the 777s were retired. The ex-Latam 350s are growth capacity
      American got rid of older widebodies and chose not to replace them
      United held onto older widebodies so it had capacity last summer
      Delta has the most fuel efficient widebody fleet of the three
      Delta will sacrifice product consistency for one year until the same supply chain issues that have turned United’s Polaris rollout into a near decade long affair are resolved
      Delta will still have new generation aircraft while United will spend ten billion dollars just on replacement wide bodies
      Delta didn’t eff anything
      They made the same choice to keep growing that United made but has newer aircraft
      No airline has 100% product consistency so yes people whine when Delta fails to deliver what no one else does

    12. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      We're not saying anything different, other than disagreement on whether shelving the 777s at the time they did was a good move.

      At the end of the day, they prefer the current CAPACITY over CONSISTENCY.

      In their favor: the latter can be corrected relatively cheaply, the former cannot.

    13. Tim Dunn Diamond

      consistency wasn't an issue for the multiple years during which Premium Select (premium economy) was being rolled out so pushing it back a year isn't going to make or break anything.
      Consistency didn't matter to United which took years to roll out Polaris, blamed the long timeline on supply chain issues which existed long before covid, and Polaris still isn't industry leading -doesn't even have a door which Delta's D1 Suite on the A330-900...

      consistency wasn't an issue for the multiple years during which Premium Select (premium economy) was being rolled out so pushing it back a year isn't going to make or break anything.
      Consistency didn't matter to United which took years to roll out Polaris, blamed the long timeline on supply chain issues which existed long before covid, and Polaris still isn't industry leading -doesn't even have a door which Delta's D1 Suite on the A330-900 and original delivery A350s have.
      The genuflecting by some people about DL's product is priceless but the simple fact is that Delta is throwing every bit of capacity it can into across the Atlantic this year - but is doing it with new generation aircraft which will be fuel efficient while United did the same thing last year and those aircraft are still inefficient, still need to be replaced, and some of which still don't have product consistency.
      Further, the product features that the ex-Latam A350-900s are best designed for business travelers, not the market that flies in the peak summer. Those aircraft do move volume and lots of it more cost efficiently than any aircraft operated by a US or Euro legacy.
      The real goal is to capture the demand that went with capacity from folded European airlines as well as AA that has chosen to shrink as well as airlines like ITA that are still on the ropes.
      DL and UA will both do well on the Atlantic this this given every market indicator at this point.

    14. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      There's no need to justify it, especially vis-a-vis UA. I get what they're doing. I'm just remarking which path they chose.

      And as stated, I personally think that they, and UA (and CX, and LH, and...) made the most logical choice: better to quickly rebuild capacity, then worry about consistency at another time.

  7. Tim Dunn Diamond

    This will be the firsty of many new international routes from Delta. The new contract which its pilots are voting on requires and incentivizes Delta to add more widebody flying on its own metal.
    The new AKL flight is the first longhaul new city that is being started with the ex-Latam A350s which have the largest number of seats of any DL aircraft. DL is expected to start reconfiguring the A350s with a new...

    This will be the firsty of many new international routes from Delta. The new contract which its pilots are voting on requires and incentivizes Delta to add more widebody flying on its own metal.
    The new AKL flight is the first longhaul new city that is being started with the ex-Latam A350s which have the largest number of seats of any DL aircraft. DL is expected to start reconfiguring the A350s with a new and larger business class but lower number of total seats in 2024.
    The order for A350-1000s is expected to be confirmed later; DL's president said that they sent it to the board for approval, the 5 350-1000s which Airbus built but did not deliver for Qatar are still grounded, and DL needs the better performance of the -1000 compared to the -900 on its 16+ hour flights. DL's capex went up by $4 billion after the A350-1000 comment to more than $5 billion per year for 2023-24 so Delta is clearly buying additional aircraft which have not been announced. DL appears to be set to enter an aggressive international expansion phase.

    1. JB Guest

      Maybe we will see Delta relaunch flights to India. I can also see them flying to Hong Kong and/or Seoul from LAX.

    2. Tim Dunn Diamond

      DL's President - the same person who led the company in pilot negotiations and made the comment about the A350-1000s - says Delta will start JFK-Mumbai service this winter also. The "heaviest" versions of the A350-900 can fly the 17+ hour flight with 250+ passengers. SQ uses the A350-900 on longer flights but fewer passengers.
      I believe they are waiting for approval to not fly their full China and Japan schedule which pretty well...

      DL's President - the same person who led the company in pilot negotiations and made the comment about the A350-1000s - says Delta will start JFK-Mumbai service this winter also. The "heaviest" versions of the A350-900 can fly the 17+ hour flight with 250+ passengers. SQ uses the A350-900 on longer flights but fewer passengers.
      I believe they are waiting for approval to not fly their full China and Japan schedule which pretty well uses all of their Delta-configured A350-900s.
      Delta has said that if they restart HKG it will be from JFK - but that was before Russian airspace embargoes went into effect. CX operated the route abiding by those sanctions for a while but ditched them out of JFK and is saving about 2 hours. Unless DL adds LAX-HKG, they won't be flying to HKG. UA can't fly EWR-HKG with sanctions in place.
      Melbourne, Australia has reportedly been courting DL. That is one of the routes, with BOM, that could be added if DL gets an exemption from operating all of its China and Japan flights through the winter of 2023-24.
      DL has also said it intends to add a number of new flights to Seoul but is apparently waiting for approval of the KE-OZ merger. LAX and JFK would be shoe-ins and SLC to ICN have also been mentioned.
      According to DL's 10K from Feb 2022, they have 6 A350-900s scheduled for delivery in 2024 - and that is before any potential A350-1000s; they are getting 8-12 A330-900s/year for the next several years. The A330-900 is picking up MSP-ICN which, I believe makes it the longest current A330 route at 14 1/3 hours; DTW-Beijing has been scheduled on the A330-900 at about the same length but is not operating.

      You are right that there will be alot of Delta international growth coming.

    3. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      "Delta has said that if they restart HKG it will be from JFK"

      Out of curiosity, when and in what venue, was that said?

    4. Tim Dunn Diamond

      some DL exec stated it in one of these employee groups where all of the juice seems to get spilled and it was reported on some site.
      I read enough of them that I don't keep track.
      Since DL has flown to HKG from SEA and LAX and pulled both, the chances are they have enough data to know that the west coast doesn't work.
      The statement was also made that the...

      some DL exec stated it in one of these employee groups where all of the juice seems to get spilled and it was reported on some site.
      I read enough of them that I don't keep track.
      Since DL has flown to HKG from SEA and LAX and pulled both, the chances are they have enough data to know that the west coast doesn't work.
      The statement was also made that the reason for trying HKG again would be to connect the US and HKG financial centers, something DL does very well in other parts of the world from JFK.

      I still don't think that DL will add HKG from JFK as long as Russia airspace embargoes remain in effect and the statements were made well before covid so the entire geopolitical environment now may have rendered those statements previously made about HKG no longer valid.

      Remember that DL pulled out of HKG well before covid but also when AA and UA still flew it only to later report that their transpacific route systems created losses; HKG was part of that along w/ China. DL flew all of the routes it was authorized to China but managed to be profitably across the Pacific so you have to believe that HKG was at least part of the reason for AA and UA's losses. DL saw those losses and got out; the gateway itself probably wasn't the issue but rather the entire HKG market was already deteriorating as HKG began to lose its previous role in Asia, in part to Singapore - a city that is bound to be on Delta's radar for service.
      The newest versions of the A350 can do LAX-SIN with close to a normal passenger load and not the 160 passengers that SQ carried on their ULRs.

    5. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      Since DL has flown to HKG from SEA and LAX and pulled both, the chances are they have enough data to know that the west coast doesn't work.

      Come now, DL pulled out of LAX-HKG in 1995. Let's not pretend that that has even a remote bearing on what their market assessment would be (one way or the other) in today's environment.

      The newest versions of the A350 can do LAX-SIN with close to a...

      Since DL has flown to HKG from SEA and LAX and pulled both, the chances are they have enough data to know that the west coast doesn't work.

      Come now, DL pulled out of LAX-HKG in 1995. Let's not pretend that that has even a remote bearing on what their market assessment would be (one way or the other) in today's environment.

      The newest versions of the A350 can do LAX-SIN with close to a normal passenger load and not the 160 passengers that SQ carried on their ULRs.

      Sure, but SQ still "only" ops with 253 seats on their A359s that do LAX (9V-SMV/W/Y/Z and all 9V-SJ* series), versus 306 seats+ on DL's aircraft.

      That, and all of new 283Tonne A359s have the -ULR's fuel capacity, and can be used as variants thereof, should an airline desire/configure them as such.

    6. JC Guest

      LAX-ICN was reportedly announced at the same internal DL event where LAX-AKL was first revealed to employees. I think we can expect an announcement within the upcoming weeks/months.

    7. Happy Flyer Member

      DL won't be starting things off on a good foot by using the prior LATAM A350 with the current configuration. If they are going to do this, do it right with delta one, premium economy, and economy.

  8. Andrew R. Guest

    Delta SkyPesos redemption rates will be comically high, while at the same time be completely closed to partner bookings. In other words, I’d say this is not news worthy.

    1. Jetiquette Guest

      For business? Coach was going for 60K RT to SYD a while back. They're not going to give the seats away.

  9. Beachfan Guest

    Do you know when it will load?

    1. Ben Schlappig OMAAT

      @ Beachfan -- Tomorrow, the 21st.

  10. Eric Guest

    This was rumored, great to see it happening. Guess I know what airline I'm flying to AKL in Feb 24.

    1. Todd Guest

      Why are the using the crappy A350 from (I think) LATAM instead of their flagship A350 for such a high profile route?

      As such, business class won't really be Delta One, which sucks.

    2. Jason Guest

      They've gotta put them somewhere. Where would you suggest they put them?

    3. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      What about LAX-AKL is "high profile?"

      From US p.o.s., it's generally been lower yield and seasonal.... a decent match for an aircraft with a higher coach-to-premium ratio.

  11. Geoff Guest

    Can’t wait to see if this new LAX-AUK service can top one million SkyMiles in D1. One-way.

    1. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      Dunno. The O.G. seems close to claiming the title: they were asking for 900K+ for SYD, prior to the holidays.

      Didn't really matter where from either. Departures from MIA/ATL/JFK/SFO were pricing out the same as from LAX.

      Ridiculous

    2. EY Guest

      I think it is interesting to mention that Delta plans to use the A350 planes got from LATAM for this route. It is kind of less competitive.

    3. Ralph4878 Guest

      Well, they peg a mile to a penny, so 900k miles makes sense - their J tickets to Australia are running well over $9000.00 r/t out of MIA/ATL/JFK/ORD and other cities.

Featured Comments Most helpful comments ( as chosen by the OMAAT community ).

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ConcordeBoy Diamond

What about LAX-AKL is "high profile?" From US p.o.s., it's generally been lower yield and seasonal.... a decent match for an aircraft with a higher coach-to-premium ratio.

2
Tim Dunn Diamond

DL's President - the same person who led the company in pilot negotiations and made the comment about the A350-1000s - says Delta will start JFK-Mumbai service this winter also. The "heaviest" versions of the A350-900 can fly the 17+ hour flight with 250+ passengers. SQ uses the A350-900 on longer flights but fewer passengers. I believe they are waiting for approval to not fly their full China and Japan schedule which pretty well uses all of their Delta-configured A350-900s. Delta has said that if they restart HKG it will be from JFK - but that was before Russian airspace embargoes went into effect. CX operated the route abiding by those sanctions for a while but ditched them out of JFK and is saving about 2 hours. Unless DL adds LAX-HKG, they won't be flying to HKG. UA can't fly EWR-HKG with sanctions in place. Melbourne, Australia has reportedly been courting DL. That is one of the routes, with BOM, that could be added if DL gets an exemption from operating all of its China and Japan flights through the winter of 2023-24. DL has also said it intends to add a number of new flights to Seoul but is apparently waiting for approval of the KE-OZ merger. LAX and JFK would be shoe-ins and SLC to ICN have also been mentioned. According to DL's 10K from Feb 2022, they have 6 A350-900s scheduled for delivery in 2024 - and that is before any potential A350-1000s; they are getting 8-12 A330-900s/year for the next several years. The A330-900 is picking up MSP-ICN which, I believe makes it the longest current A330 route at 14 1/3 hours; DTW-Beijing has been scheduled on the A330-900 at about the same length but is not operating. You are right that there will be alot of Delta international growth coming.

2
Jason Guest

They've gotta put them somewhere. Where would you suggest they put them?

2
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