American Airlines wants to start flying between New York and Tokyo, even as the airline is otherwise retreating from JFK. Let’s start with some background, and then look at the details of American’s request. While American’s plans for this were first revealed several weeks ago, the airline has now unveiled its desired schedule.
In this post:
Some Tokyo Haneda slots are up for grabs
Tokyo has two major airports — Narita Airport (NRT) and Haneda Airport (HND). Haneda is much more convenient for those visiting Tokyo, but historically most long haul flights have operated to Narita. However, Haneda has increasingly been opening up slots for long haul flights, which airlines have been very excited about.
Back in 2019, the Department of Transportation (DOT) was in a position to award US airlines a dozen additional slots for Haneda (Japanese airlines were offered a similar number of slots). The DOT is supposed to award these based on what’s in the best interest of the public, so airlines try to make the case for why a particular route is in the public’s best interest.
Those 12 slots ended up being split between four airlines, including American, Delta, Hawaiian, and United. These slots have a “use it or lose it” clause, meaning that if an airline doesn’t operate a route for which it was granted a slot, it will be allocated to another airline.
Due to the pandemic, the DOT has allowed airlines to delay launching these flights. That dormancy waiver ended as of October 2023, and we know that two airlines decided not to use their available slots. Specifically, Delta won’t operate a daily Portland to Tokyo Haneda route, while Hawaiian Airlines won’t operate a 5x weekly Kona to Tokyo Haneda route.
The DOT is now inviting US airlines to make their case for why they should be awarded these slots. United has requested permission to fly to Tokyo Haneda from Guam and Houston, while American has made a request as well…
American proposes New York to Tokyo Haneda flights
American has filed with the DOT, requesting to be allocated seven weekly slot pairs for Tokyo Haneda Airport. The airline wants to use these to launch daily flights between New York and Tokyo. American is proposing operating this 6,772-mile flight with the following schedule:
New York to Tokyo Haneda departing 10:00AM arriving 1:05PM (+1 day)
Tokyo Haneda to New York departing 3:05PM arriving 3:10PM
American would use a Boeing 777-200ER for the route, featuring 273 seats. This includes 37 business class seats, 24 premium economy seats, and 212 economy class seats.
Now, of course there’s an irony to this request on American’s part:
- American is greatly reducing its New York flying, after the partnership between American and JetBlue was discontinued
- American has hugely scaled back its flying to Asia since the start of the pandemic, and has basically abandoned Los Angeles as a transpacific gateway
For what it’s worth, American currently flies to Tokyo Haneda Airport from Dallas and Los Angeles.
The DOT will soon go through the process of allocating these slots, and that decision is supposed to be made based on what’s in the best interest of the public. Personally I don’t think American has a particularly compelling case here:
- American has a transpacific joint venture with Japan Airlines, and that airline already flies twice daily between the two airports, so this doesn’t really add unique service, as joint venture airlines align schedules and fares
- Then again, United’s request for a Houston to Tokyo Haneda route wouldn’t have much public benefit either, as joint venture partner All Nippon Airways already operates that route
- American’s odds of being granted these Tokyo Haneda slots would be much better if the service were out of a gateway that didn’t currently have service, like Charlotte, Miami, Philadelphia, or Phoenix
- While American operated a New York to Tokyo Haneda route in the past, it ultimately failed; however, that was maybe partly because the route was operated using nighttime slots, which had incredibly inconvenient timings for most travelers
- While New York is of course a large market, there would be very little connecting traffic in New York for this service, given the 10AM departure, plus the lack of domestic connectivity to JFK
- Given that Delta is the only one of the “big three” US carriers to not have a Japanese joint venture partner, I think what could be in the best interest of the public would be if Delta launched service out of Boston or New York; however, Delta has greatly scaled back its Asia flying and seems to be funneling so much through Seoul Incheon, so I am not sure Delta will be interested
Bottom line
American has expressed interest in the Tokyo Haneda Airport slots that are becoming available. American wants to fly daily year-round from New York to Tokyo with a Boeing 777. The timing here is funny, since it comes at a time when American is otherwise scaling back long haul flying out of New York.
Since the DOT is supposed to award these slots based on what’s in the public interest, I don’t think American has that strong of a case for being granted these slots, as the route is already served twice daily by a joint venture partner. Then again, it doesn’t seem like Delta has much interest in these slots, in which case American is primarily competing against United, which also doesn’t have that compelling of a case.
It’s just too bad that American isn’t considering this service out of another gateway.
What do you make of American’s request to fly from New York to Tokyo?
A net add in seats to Tokyo is better than a shift in seats from one airport to another.
AA wants to fly where they think they can make money, but all things equal why would anyone fly US carrier to Japan. UA to Japan, Ana Over UA, JL over AA, skyteam is hung dry. No US carrier will ever be able to compete on crew and service to Japan. Itsthe same stupid idea they had to fly to Doha from JFK
"and has basically abandoned Los Angeles as a transpacific gateway"
Is it fair to say that though? They still are scheduled fly from there to Sydney, Tokyo, Shanghai, and Auckland. The only routes missing from pre-pandemic are Beijing (which they cannot currently fly even if they wanted to) and Hong Kong.
American does not fly from Los Angeles to Shanghai and has not even applied to do so. In fact, they returned their Shanghai designation to the DOT before Covid. Delta asked for and has been awarded the rights to restart Los Angeles to Shanghai, which they will do in the spring as the only US airline from Los Angeles to China.
I was about to come back and swear that I saw an American 787 departing Los Angeles to Shanghai, last Saturday when I was there (and I actually did!), but after searching, it turns out that that was the Dallas flight doing a stopover in L.A.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL127/history/20231104/2215Z/KLAX/ZSPD
Sorry to rain on your Parade, but United is starting Shanghai out of LAX in January. After all UA owns Asia!
Please tell us the flight numbers and dates in January for which United has published LAX-PVG schedules.
They have published LAX-PVG schedules for later in the spring but they have not received authorization to fly those flights or their 2nd SFO-PVG which they are also selling.
United is notorious for publishing China schedules which it is not authorized to fly and then having to pull them down. They have used their authorized flights...
Please tell us the flight numbers and dates in January for which United has published LAX-PVG schedules.
They have published LAX-PVG schedules for later in the spring but they have not received authorization to fly those flights or their 2nd SFO-PVG which they are also selling.
United is notorious for publishing China schedules which it is not authorized to fly and then having to pull them down. They have used their authorized flights for daily SFO to Beijing and Shanghai flights.
They’re awarded it, but delta keeps pushing the start back. It’s not the spring anymore and they lowered the frequency down to 2x/week
and, just like with PDX-HND, there is a point when awards have to be used.
AA is not starting its expanded services as other carriers either.
If the rules are being disregarded, then the DOT will move and re-award the routes. If there is flexibility as to when start times for routes can begin, then UA loses out again, just as they are going to do with more HND access -which they talked...
and, just like with PDX-HND, there is a point when awards have to be used.
AA is not starting its expanded services as other carriers either.
If the rules are being disregarded, then the DOT will move and re-award the routes. If there is flexibility as to when start times for routes can begin, then UA loses out again, just as they are going to do with more HND access -which they talked big about winning. And now there is a good chance they will end up w/ nothing more than they have now.
If I remember correctly, American applied to move its Shanghai authority to Seattle, and the request was approved. If you have other information, and back it up with real evidence, I'll stand corrected.
whether it was approved or not, at the time that China locked down flight frequencies below pre-covid levels in the US-China bilateral, the DOT has prioritized restoration of flights that were operating at the time of the covid shutdown.
AA was only operating DFW to China while DL and UA were operating all of their authorized routes. DL prioritized restoration of SEA-PVG which is already operating on a daily basis.
Based on what...
whether it was approved or not, at the time that China locked down flight frequencies below pre-covid levels in the US-China bilateral, the DOT has prioritized restoration of flights that were operating at the time of the covid shutdown.
AA was only operating DFW to China while DL and UA were operating all of their authorized routes. DL prioritized restoration of SEA-PVG which is already operating on a daily basis.
Based on what the DOT appears to be doing, only after DL and UA restart all of the routes and frequencies they operated pre-covid will the DOT start to reallocate any frequencies that are available under the bilateral, including AA's desire, which may be gone by that point, to start SEA-PVG.
I for one want AA to succeed here. UA is actually saying their JV will CANCEL the existing flight our if IAH if (I'm not mistaken). Everything has changed. I really don't think that CLT could even support this flight (MAYBE to Narita for connecting vacationers, Haneda is a BUSINESS hub), true PHL has more connecting traffic (but mostly NE Domestic and TATL), Pheonix is a dry-hot desert at altitude (limits takeoff weight adn cargo...
I for one want AA to succeed here. UA is actually saying their JV will CANCEL the existing flight our if IAH if (I'm not mistaken). Everything has changed. I really don't think that CLT could even support this flight (MAYBE to Narita for connecting vacationers, Haneda is a BUSINESS hub), true PHL has more connecting traffic (but mostly NE Domestic and TATL), Pheonix is a dry-hot desert at altitude (limits takeoff weight adn cargo space, not that there is any "cargo" coming from there and all the new tech jobs are Taiwanese, NOT to the business hub of Japan with less connections than Narita). Miami would have been the only other viable option here, and that probably would have been seasonal (but again, length of flight/heat-humidity might have affected take off weight).
What if AA has a big business contract or cargo contract and having an additional frequency out of JFK would help them with flights in both coasts and our of the biggest Japanese business hub in the US (Texas and specifically DFW, Google it).
I really hope AA succeeds here and can start to rebuild and refocus its NYC market. They have already been seeing great success with their co-brand business out of the NYC area, makes sense to refocus things.
Lastly, I highly doubt that JetBlue would have had a significant impact on this particular flight. Maybe a percentage point, maybe that's the margin of success on a flight like this, I don't know. But I haven't ever thought of B6 in any other light than the NorthEast and traffic from there to Florida & back.
Dunno where you’ve been the past few years, but Haneda caters at least as much to tourists these days as business travelers. It’s not 2009 lol
UA sealed its fate in getting passed over and giving the route to AA the minute AA said it would add a flight to the JFK-HND market while UA said it would drop its IAH-NRT flight if it won the IAH-HND award.
If this is your opinion, you're entitled to it. But you stated it as a fact, so the burden of proof is on you.
I actually agree with You Timmy!
because I make my decisions based on fact.
Unless Delta chooses to apply for its former PDX allocation, which it does not appear interested in doing, AA is the best choice for many reasons.
The same DL execs that reportedly said DL would not apply for another HND route have said they will announce more ICN flights where they clearly see more profit potential.
UA, which started the trash talk about more HND access,...
because I make my decisions based on fact.
Unless Delta chooses to apply for its former PDX allocation, which it does not appear interested in doing, AA is the best choice for many reasons.
The same DL execs that reportedly said DL would not apply for another HND route have said they will announce more ICN flights where they clearly see more profit potential.
UA, which started the trash talk about more HND access, is likely to walk away w/ no more HND flights - the same as DL each on their own metal - than when this all started.
Tim
You once stated that Delta would apply. What happened to that "fact"?
feel free to show us where I presented it as "fact"
You know your way around a comments section. ;) You shouldn't have a problem finding your dogma. Though the irony of you now trying to back off your absolutist statements about DL and the PDX slot is funny, I'll give you that. Don't backpedal, Tim. It's unbecoming of the whole reason why no one respects you. You don't want to lose your reputation. ;)
If the comments are there, you should be able to find them.
You create a narrative IN YOUR MIND for me as much as you do for DL.
I said I expect DL to apply for and win a HND and would win if they applied for any of JFK, BOS or SLC but I expected - did not state as fact - that DL would choose JFK.
The egg is on YOUR FACE since you incessantly think I am Delta's spokesperson. Clearly they don't "brief" me as much as you think.
Trust me. No one thinks delta briefs you on anything, that would actually make you somewhat in the know which you’re clearly not.
What people object to is your silly absolutist statements based with little to no data like their hnd slot plans
Why? You never present real evidence for your claims.
I remember you stating this "fact" a few weeks ago, not as part of this thread.
If UA ends up w/ an award, I will have proven wrong.
I expected DL to apply, they chose not to, and it is between AA and UA - as some internet posters said DL execs said internally but which was never communicated publicly.
My expectations did not align with DL's goals.
I also want them start Singapore but they haven't indicated that is going to happen.
Apparently they did just...
If UA ends up w/ an award, I will have proven wrong.
I expected DL to apply, they chose not to, and it is between AA and UA - as some internet posters said DL execs said internally but which was never communicated publicly.
My expectations did not align with DL's goals.
I also want them start Singapore but they haven't indicated that is going to happen.
Apparently they did just offer a list of other cities in Asia in a chat w/ employees that is still on the radar.
As I have said, DL is not going to be a HND, ICN, and PVG airline in Asia.
They have focused on getting the HND routes that they want and which work, will then build ICN while rebuilding what works in China, and then will start building out other cities in Asia including the subcontinent.
Brb grabbing my popcorn
AA aimlessly throwing more spaghetti at the wall. I took their JFK-NRT flight they had years back multiple times and it was always half empty. Mind you, this is when AA had more connecting traffic through JFK and their JAL partnership at NRT. Not only have they gutted their own connecting traffic at JFK, but they no longer have B6 to rely on. What in the hell makes them think it’ll work THIS time? It...
AA aimlessly throwing more spaghetti at the wall. I took their JFK-NRT flight they had years back multiple times and it was always half empty. Mind you, this is when AA had more connecting traffic through JFK and their JAL partnership at NRT. Not only have they gutted their own connecting traffic at JFK, but they no longer have B6 to rely on. What in the hell makes them think it’ll work THIS time? It must be so easy to work in their Operations dept where you can continue to get everything so wrong and keep your job.
And as you said, even the four other hubs might have had a better chance of being awarded this flight and potentially been viable to make it work. MIA in particular has been talking about a nonstop to Asia for what seems like forever and I’m sure PHL would love it as well. At least those have more connecting traffic.
What a crazy world we live in when circumstances and financial environments can change over a decade…
Haneda daytime slots weren’t available when AA last flew to TYO. With AA’s JV partner, JL, it’s not hard to see this working easily with connections on the Haneda end. NYC-TYO o&d alone could make this work. Not like aa is trying to connect many people at jfk. That would be dfw.
I actually fully agree with you that AA’s connecting traffic bread and butter to TYO is DFW (and maybe historically ORD). And I also remember the lousy schedules they had when they first acquired the HND slots. However, I still just don’t see there being enough O&D demand to warrant it, (especially on a 777-200) with very little connecting traffic from the Northeast to supplement. Not when you have both Japanese airlines serving JFK from...
I actually fully agree with you that AA’s connecting traffic bread and butter to TYO is DFW (and maybe historically ORD). And I also remember the lousy schedules they had when they first acquired the HND slots. However, I still just don’t see there being enough O&D demand to warrant it, (especially on a 777-200) with very little connecting traffic from the Northeast to supplement. Not when you have both Japanese airlines serving JFK from HND and United serving both HND and NRT from EWR. (Maybe I overestimated B6’s impact on AA connections at JFK, but it still would have been something). But hey, prove me wrong. I’d love to see it succeed if it means more options and more competition. Just my opinion is all.
You have no idea what you are talking about. AA flew JFK-NRT successfully for years, then switched to HND, when slots first opened there, none of which were competitive. It was a late evening NY departure, and a late evening arrival into HND, and same on the return. Terrible schedule, so they dropped it. AA never had a 400+ a day operation at JFK with unlimited traffic either. Check your facts.
Where did I ever say AA was operating a 400+ op at JFK? Of course I know that was never the case. That’s why my first post pointed to PHL as a potential possibility…(and even then, I’d be skeptical). A 787-8 might work.
For what it’s worth in general, I’m not one to get confrontational and scrap with strangers on here while feeling strong and hiding behind a screen name. Some people get nasty...
Where did I ever say AA was operating a 400+ op at JFK? Of course I know that was never the case. That’s why my first post pointed to PHL as a potential possibility…(and even then, I’d be skeptical). A 787-8 might work.
For what it’s worth in general, I’m not one to get confrontational and scrap with strangers on here while feeling strong and hiding behind a screen name. Some people get nasty on here while living out of their parents’ basements. Would we speak to each other this way at a P&M happy hour meet up face to face? Probably not, with the exception of a couple trolls we all know. Maybe ease up on each other a bit, especially Tim. I certainly don’t always agree with him, but he’s passionate and I do learn some things from his posts.
We’re a small AV geek community that most people outside of this world don’t even understand at all.
No one is being nasty to you. You just wrote something rather abrasive, abusive toward a group of aa employees, and uninforrmed on the topic.
You seem surprised that when you write something like that, someone with experience in that area would reply
I actually wasn’t even referring to what you said to me; it was more so in general from other posts between other users. My comment was slightly abrasive, yes, but it’s just been very frustrating and sad over the years to see a once great airline and one I flew very often from before I can even remember, growing up in DFW, become what it is today. Like I said in another post, I’m actually still pulling for them; that’s what makes it frustrating.
Honest question: why is that a terrible schedule? For O&D traffic, that's pretty ideal. Work a full day in NYC, get on a flight to TYO, get there in time to check in to the hotel and get a good sleep before doing your business. Then getting back on an evening flight.
Sure, it doesn't work for connections on the arriving end. But NYC-TYO is all about O&D traffic. Connecting traffic goes to the airlines' other hubs.
36 business seats.
It’s 37 on the 77E for AA.
It’ll only be 35 total revenue seats. 2 seats allocated to the 4 pilots operating the long haul based on contractual agreements with inflight crew rest. This is for the 777-200 only.
Wow, can't wait to see if TIM is wrong again.
That’s interesting that DL had to either fly out of PDX or loose it. Why than can UA get the slot and change it’s city of origin. DL should be able to keep the Japanese slot and be allowed to change its point of origin before giving it to another carrier who changes POO.
to be clear, United was not proposing to move any of its HND routes. It is asking the DOT reallocate DL and HA's routes because of underuse based on the requirements of when those routes were awarded.
Delta asked the DOT to give it permission to move its PDX and HNL to HND route authorities. AA and HA supported DL's request.
The DOT denied DL's request which means they also closed the door to...
to be clear, United was not proposing to move any of its HND routes. It is asking the DOT reallocate DL and HA's routes because of underuse based on the requirements of when those routes were awarded.
Delta asked the DOT to give it permission to move its PDX and HNL to HND route authorities. AA and HA supported DL's request.
The DOT denied DL's request which means they also closed the door to any attempts by any airline to move any routes.
The DOT clearly wants - on its terms - to assign Haneda routes under the US-Japan treaty.
Delta notified the DOT that it does not intend to fly PDX-HND and returned the route to the DOT.
The next step is to conduct a route case.
The DOT has not opened a route case to reassign ANY HND route authorities. AA and UA have both told the DOT what they want WITHOUT THE DOT ASKING or there being a formal route case.
In other news, Tim, the “smartest guy in aviation” still spends his entire day writing in the comment sections of admired and respected aviation writers because no one respects him or believes him about anything to read any of his own work.
He grovels and hides in the articles/websites of his betters to find a modicum of respect. No surprise there.
in FACTUAL news, you show up to criticize ME since you are incapable of contributing anything of substance to the discussion.
How about you grow up and acknowledge that someone else besides you really does understand the industry and has smoehting meaningful to contribute.
Delta will very likely win back its Haneda slot, deploy it to JFK, and is on track to grow a far more profitable Asian operation than United which talks incessantly about...
in FACTUAL news, you show up to criticize ME since you are incapable of contributing anything of substance to the discussion.
How about you grow up and acknowledge that someone else besides you really does understand the industry and has smoehting meaningful to contribute.
Delta will very likely win back its Haneda slot, deploy it to JFK, and is on track to grow a far more profitable Asian operation than United which talks incessantly about size - as long as that size isn't about profits.
Delta's Japan strategy has been in a 15 year transition and is reaching a conclusion. DL's Asian strategy is still evolving and will grow to include more ICN routes.
All 3 US airlines are now the same size in China and that will be the csse for the future.
DL's Pacific strategy is simply generating succeeding more than its competitors.
And THAT is what you don't want to admit so you attack the messenger.
Oh tim… the nonsense you say… in the comments section :)
I contribute plenty. But you’re right. I don’t dogmatically assume anything and everything delta, aa, or ua are correct based on fanboyism.
Meanwhile… you’re once again monitoring an article that isn’t even in Lucky’s main page anymore because you literally have nothing to do with your life.
Trying getting a life then maybe delta and others might respect you.
so let's get this right, Max,
you go running to anonymous internet sources or supposed Delta employees to "prove" that I was fired from Delta but you can't provide a single shred of actual fact.
No one should expect an anonymous source - esp. someone that uses the name MAX anything - stands for the truth.
If those supposed Delta employees say that I was fired, don't you think they should be...
so let's get this right, Max,
you go running to anonymous internet sources or supposed Delta employees to "prove" that I was fired from Delta but you can't provide a single shred of actual fact.
No one should expect an anonymous source - esp. someone that uses the name MAX anything - stands for the truth.
If those supposed Delta employees say that I was fired, don't you think they should be able to provide paperwork to show that?
They simply can't because it didn't happen.
You believe whatever lie you want and then make up your own because you can't stand to admit that I am right about the airline industry regardless of whether I am arrogant or not.
You want to get rid of me because you don't like the facts I bring.
At least have the guts to debate facts with facts and logic instead of resorting to name calling. You would do well to follow the example of others in this thread.
"You want to get rid of me because you don't like the facts I bring."
No, it's because of your attitude.
after you argue incessantly about my character only to finally decide to argue facts and then prove exactly my point.
No, it isn't my attitude.
It is those that can't stand to read the truth I bring.
You tried to engage in a personal attack and realized it wouldn't work so you pivoted to the discussion at hand - only to return to an attempt at character assassination.
All you have to admit is that...
after you argue incessantly about my character only to finally decide to argue facts and then prove exactly my point.
No, it isn't my attitude.
It is those that can't stand to read the truth I bring.
You tried to engage in a personal attack and realized it wouldn't work so you pivoted to the discussion at hand - only to return to an attempt at character assassination.
All you have to admit is that 1. other people can fight their own fights. No one invited or asked you to defend anyone else.
2. You can debate the facts and prove I am right or you can just pass over.
3. You cannot argue w/ a straight face that is about my character when you resort to personal attacks and fail to address the business issues which the article and I are addressing.
as yet another story rolls off the front page of OMAAT, two truths remain:
1. There are a group of people that cannot accept that I understand the airline industry more than virtually anyone else and speak my mind accurately. There are and always will be those that want to denigrate those that speak the truth, esp. when it is counter to what they want to believe, even if it is factually false.
2. Delta's...
as yet another story rolls off the front page of OMAAT, two truths remain:
1. There are a group of people that cannot accept that I understand the airline industry more than virtually anyone else and speak my mind accurately. There are and always will be those that want to denigrate those that speak the truth, esp. when it is counter to what they want to believe, even if it is factually false.
2. Delta's Pacific strategy has taken 15 years to refine after the NW merger but it is coming down to the final lap.
- The Tokyo hub was not profitable even when NW operated it.
- Japan, not Delta, decided it wants to move all premium carrier longhaul traffic to HND away from HND after decades of using NRT exclusively for all US longhaul flights.
- DL determined early on that it would seize every opportunity to grow itself at HND
- AA and UA chose to jump into JVs with JAL and ANA and gain more access to HND than DL through their JVs
- DL preserved every flight it operated at the time DL ended all beyond NRT flights which happened before covid including PDX.
- DL is now likely best positioned to gain JFK-HND to round out its HND presence in the top markets and its core hubs.
DL execs just said on their earnings call that they are very pleased with the performance of ICN as a JV hub and are likely to announce new service in the coming weeks.
DL has a pipeline of new widebody aircraft through 2026 with 2025 the last year for a large number of deliveries.
Even the naysayers recognize that DL is poised to place another order including the A350-1000 which will give DL the most fuel efficient and capable longhaul fleet among US carriers and rivaling what most of DL's Asian competitors operate.
DL's Pacific transformation has been long and most people don't have the patience to watch it play out.
For those that can see the big picture like me, it will be rewarding to see DL's profits across the Pacific grow even further beyond UA even with what is currently a smaller Pacific network but which could easily grow to equal or be larger than UA's
I love how DL "refines" its strategy, but other carriers change or backtrack, etc. When DL drops a money-losing route it is smart business; when UA or AA drop a route, it is as if they should never have tried it or that they can't compete.
you clearly don't read very carefully.
I have REPEATEDLY praised American for dropping its money-losing Pacific routes.
You can't accept that it is United that keeps hanging on to money losing routes even while touting its size.
The reality is that Delta's Pacific network is nearly twice as profitable as United's on a per seat mile basis using THE MOST CURRENT data.
You don’t need to be constantly superfluous in your arguments. You can simply say DL is no longer the most profitable carrier in the Pacific and is trying to regain its position even though it hasn’t been successful as of late.
Yes, we know you regard yourself in the highest manner possible. Everyone please render a curtsy and Ben please be sure to personally introduce yourself, Ford, Miles, Winston, and your parents. Funny how commenters...
You don’t need to be constantly superfluous in your arguments. You can simply say DL is no longer the most profitable carrier in the Pacific and is trying to regain its position even though it hasn’t been successful as of late.
Yes, we know you regard yourself in the highest manner possible. Everyone please render a curtsy and Ben please be sure to personally introduce yourself, Ford, Miles, Winston, and your parents. Funny how commenters who are actually knowledgeable like Sean don’t need to have nonstop closing and long winded monologues to remind us.
But just a friendly reminder to readers that Tim made a mid year prediction in 2022 that was bullish on Southwest and bearish on United. Then Southwest had one of its worst performance in their history while United had one of its best.
To date, it’s one of the worst aviation predictions on record to the extent that it’s such a reliable icebreaker when discussions get tense. One of my favorites is having to check the manifest if Tim is on board, so we know which performance penalties to apply.
Frankly, if anyone did the complete opposite of what Tim has been recommending recently, you’d be more profitable than many airlines.
Tim you are a gift to the aviation community in more ways than you realize.
except you AGAIN make inaccurate statements.
Delta WAS the most profitable US airline across the Pacific. Just as it was across its entire network in the 2nd quarter of 2023.
You and other United fans can't accept that we ALL acknowledge that United made the right call in retaining capacity so it was able to quickly meet post-covid demand.
They succeeded - for ONE QUARTER.
On an apples to apples basis, that advantage...
except you AGAIN make inaccurate statements.
Delta WAS the most profitable US airline across the Pacific. Just as it was across its entire network in the 2nd quarter of 2023.
You and other United fans can't accept that we ALL acknowledge that United made the right call in retaining capacity so it was able to quickly meet post-covid demand.
They succeeded - for ONE QUARTER.
On an apples to apples basis, that advantage was erased ONE QUARTER LATER.
United has not paid ALL of the costs of raising ALL employees to higher pay levels - and neither has American or Southwest - as Delta has.
Delta's first quarter 2023 results reflect the conclusion of charges related to making those changes - which UAL has not even settled with its flight attendants to do.
American and Delta both retired older aircraft to return more efficiently. United did not.
American has not replaced all of the widebody capacity it retired but Delta most definitely has.
Delta slowed its return of capacity last summer in order to restore its operational reliability. Delta ended up w/ the best on-time in 2022.
Delta is on track to retain that lead for 2023.
Delta IS more profitable than American and United by a pretty wide margin CURRENTLY.
cling to what United accomplished in the past. It didn't last.
Move on and face the music that United implemented a short-term strategy that is not sustainable.
The same is true of United's Pacific strategy vs. Delta's.
You have. And you know it. Other delta a.net members were more than happy to share that tidbit before you were banned.
But like I said, if you’d like to prove it. Stop hiding behind a stage name and prove it. Everyone knows tim Dunn is only your writing name.
Tim, be a big boy. Stop resorting to temper tantrums when your false claims get debunked. Adults use numbers to support their claim while kids enable CAPS LOCK.
Pacific Profitability
Q2 2022
DL 11M
UA 46M
Q3 2022
DL 57M
UA 117M
Q4 2022
DL 29M
UA 120M
Q1 2023
DL -6M
UA 68M
Q2 2023
DL 104M
UA...
Tim, be a big boy. Stop resorting to temper tantrums when your false claims get debunked. Adults use numbers to support their claim while kids enable CAPS LOCK.
Pacific Profitability
Q2 2022
DL 11M
UA 46M
Q3 2022
DL 57M
UA 117M
Q4 2022
DL 29M
UA 120M
Q1 2023
DL -6M
UA 68M
Q2 2023
DL 104M
UA 116M
That’s 5 consecutive quarters where UA was more profitable than DL in the Pacific. Same can be said about AA’s strength in Latin America. In fact it’s only DL that isn’t consistently at the top in any region or systemwide. The apples to apples comparison given the labor agreements is the second half of 2023 where UA was more profitable not just in Q3 but H2 2023 despite earning significantly less revenue.
H2 2023
Net Income
DL 1.69B
UA 1.79B
Revenue
DL 27.45B
UA 25.28B
You’re just making excuses at this point to make DL win a losing game. It’s clear all you do is parrot talking points made in company announcements and outreach. The moment the discussions delves any deeper you lose your footing and fall on your face every single time. Among your multiple mental shortcomings, you should add numerically illiterate to that long list.
You make all these statements that everyone is wrong and you’re right and the only numbers you provide to support your claims are your headings. The only thing denser than a 450 seater AC 777-300ER is you, Tim.
first, let me commend you for using data to make your point. I am happy to have a data-driven discussion and I think OMAAT and any other forum are happy to have that discussion. People learn from it.
Problem is that there has been so much back and forth that neither of us are accurately making the point we are trying to make.
1. You cite 2H 2023 which is the 2nd half...
first, let me commend you for using data to make your point. I am happy to have a data-driven discussion and I think OMAAT and any other forum are happy to have that discussion. People learn from it.
Problem is that there has been so much back and forth that neither of us are accurately making the point we are trying to make.
1. You cite 2H 2023 which is the 2nd half of 2023; United has not even reported its 3rd quarter financials to the public, let alone anything to the DOT about their profitability.
2. I have repeatedly said that UA gained an advantage because of keeping capacity in its system to respond to demand.
I have not tried to argue that United lost its advantage IN EVERY REGION - but across its system - when American and Delta decided to add capacity - because that is exactly what happened.
3. United SHOULD make more money than Delta flying the Pacific because it takes in twice as much revenue. I said before and it clearly got muddled that Delta makes almost as much flying half the capacity to Asia as United. That is exactly what happened. Of course, United makes more money flying the Pacific but on a per seat mile basis, their profit is about half of Delta's in the 2nd quarter.
4. To Europe in 2Q2023, Delta made $540 million compared to $304 for United EVEN THOUGH United flew more capacity.
5. American is much alrger than DL or UA to Latin America and SHOULD make more - which they do.
Calculate and post the margins for each airline for each region and my statement is accurate.
DL's higher system profits are precisely driven by its profits in each individual region.
And you clearly don't want to talk about the last 5 years before covid - because AA and UA lost money flying the Pacific even when Delta made money. The data is all there; you have found it.
You want to fixate on one quarter's worth of an advantage on a system basis and think, like Scott Kirby, that United has a right to world dominance and yet the actual data shows that United is supporting its larger size with lower profits per seat mile. United can add all the capacity they want but Delta has proven that profit, not size is what ultimately matters.
I appreciate the willingness to debate the numbers but you are proving exactly my point.
United does NOT make near as much money in the same regions as Delta and that is why United's profits on a system basis on an apples to apples basis were lower in the 2nd quarter and will be in the 3rd quarter.
Delta announced their profits today and spoke very favorably about their international regions.
The ball is now in UA's court. If their international regions are as strong as they and you talk, they should outperform Delta when they report but you and I both know that won't happen.
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about and show a lack of knowledge other than a remedial understanding. Your typical response of changing the goal posts when you get corrected on a factually incorrect claim is so predictable, it’s clockwork.
The numbers I posted were clearly for 2022. It’s publicly available data, and the fact you couldn’t even catch the simple typo shows you incorrectly analyze data for the ridiculous claims you...
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about and show a lack of knowledge other than a remedial understanding. Your typical response of changing the goal posts when you get corrected on a factually incorrect claim is so predictable, it’s clockwork.
The numbers I posted were clearly for 2022. It’s publicly available data, and the fact you couldn’t even catch the simple typo shows you incorrectly analyze data for the ridiculous claims you constantly spew.
H2 2022
Net Income
DL 1.69B (6.1%)
UA 1.79B (7.1%)
Revenue
DL 27.45B
UA 25.28B
In fact, let’s extend this into 2023.
Q3 2022 - Q1 2023
Net Income
DL 1.41B (3.5%)
UA 1.59B (4.2%)
Revenue
DL 40.24B
UA 36.71B
DL brought more revenue across the entire system and was still less profitable than United. Not just for Q3 2022 but for the entire H2 2022 and even extending into 2023. Let’s look even father with Pacific and Latin America too.
Q2 2022 - Q2 2023 Pacific
Net Income
DL 196M (8.5%)
UA 467M (9.7%)
Revenue
DL 2.30B
UA 4.82B
Q2 2022 - Q2 2023 Latin
Net Income
DL 275M (6.03%)
AA 1.26B (13.4%)
Revenue
DL 4.56B
AA 9.39B
Both AA and UA brought higher profit margins than DL in Latin America and the Pacific, respectively, for 5 quarters in a row. I always provided data across several periods while you provided little to none. Yet you somehow keep focusing on just one quarter.
Both AA and UA are in much better positions than before the pandemic unlike DL. That’s a point you can’t seem to see. That’s not a problem with the data provided, it’s a problem with your lack of understanding. Then each time you get called out on your shortcomings, you get overly hormonal and psychologically divergent. AA and UA are making more profits at the expense of DL and will continue to do so. Don’t ever forget that DL lost more money than either AA or UA throughout the entire pandemic at over 12 billion dollars. But that deficit doesn’t even compare to how highly you think of yourself vs. what others think of you.
You rarely provide any concrete numbers for your claims, and then follow up with consistently low quality analysis and responses. Your usual go to “Data is available” but rarely providing data is just one of many examples of your ineptitude. The aft lavatory is where you and the rest of the BS you spew belong.
*worldtraveler* Tim Dunn - the only known person to have been fired by Delta AND banned by airliners.net.
the "go to" comment that is not only false but highlights that I stand head and shoulders above the rest of you all in being able to discuss the topics at hand.
For someone that seems hellbent on getting me off out of the discussion, you do an outstanding job of elevating my status.
Meanwhile, when the DOT opens a route case, I believe it will be shown based on AA and UA's proposals...
the "go to" comment that is not only false but highlights that I stand head and shoulders above the rest of you all in being able to discuss the topics at hand.
For someone that seems hellbent on getting me off out of the discussion, you do an outstanding job of elevating my status.
Meanwhile, when the DOT opens a route case, I believe it will be shown based on AA and UA's proposals that DL will re-win the vacated PDX authority and I believe it will be for JFK-HND.
Btw, Delta just reported its financial reports for the 3rd quarter, the first airline to do so, and beat analyst expectations including on very strong revenue growth in NYC and BOS as well as in all international regions - which they expect to continue.
"that I stand head and shoulders above the rest of you all in being able to discuss the topics at hand."
And still a pompous @$$.
What’s false, Tim? You’ve admitted to being fired plenty of times in the past few years. Sometimes you forget that and say you weren’t, I’ll give you that. But you’ve admitted that publicly plenty.
How about you come out from behind your stage name if you want people to believe you.
You’re a known quantity with a history and plenty of delta people know your background.
no, I have admitted to nothing about being fired because it has never happened.
You repeat falsehoods because you can't keep up with the factual basis of the discussion so you attack those that know the facts.
And you are still incapable of explaining why I would defend Delta if I was fired from them.
Like everything else you write, your statement is illogical on top of being false.
Wrong comment replied to:
You have. And you know it. Other delta a.net members were more than happy to share that tidbit before you were banned.
But like I said, if you’d like to prove it. Stop hiding behind a stage name and prove it. Everyone knows tim Dunn is only your writing name.
But to be frank, many people would love to know what stage of mental illness would cause anyone to...
Wrong comment replied to:
You have. And you know it. Other delta a.net members were more than happy to share that tidbit before you were banned.
But like I said, if you’d like to prove it. Stop hiding behind a stage name and prove it. Everyone knows tim Dunn is only your writing name.
But to be frank, many people would love to know what stage of mental illness would cause anyone to defend a public corporation to the extent you do, especially one you’ve admitted fired you.
But again. Feel free to come out behind your pen name rather than hiding behind it in the websites of your betters.
Didn't AA try JFK-HND in 2011, and then quickly axe it as they couldn't make it work?
I can't understand how AA could make the route work now if they can't make it work in the past...
That previous JFK-HND flight arrived at like 12:30 AM so there were no connection opportunities and the service was mostly limited to O&D traffic as a result. If they got a better slot this time, I think the outcome would be more favorable.
Like someone else already wrote, the timings were horrible. That was when Tokyo/Haneda had just reopened to longhaul international traffic, but only allowed such flights to arrive during graveyard hours. There were almost no worthwhile connections to Haneda's vast domestic network, and the last trains would often depart before most people would have a chance to clear customs, so there was essentially no advantage to using these timings versus just flying into Tokyo/Narita, back then.
Like someone else already wrote, the timings were horrible. That was when Tokyo/Haneda had just reopened to longhaul international traffic, but only allowed such flights to arrive during graveyard hours. There were almost no worthwhile connections to Haneda's vast domestic network, and the last trains would often depart before most people would have a chance to clear customs, so there was essentially no advantage to using these timings versus just flying into Tokyo/Narita, back then.
JAL only operates 2 flights from JFK to Tokyo. American should be awarded the slot. We will all meet at the Gramercy Hotel right under Godzilla.
I for one hope AA gets the route. #OneWorld
+1.
But I predict that UA will get it. But that’s just meaningless speculation.
American Has a hub in PHL
No competition from anyone.
It makes no sense.
I'm a PHL hub-captive who happens to love Philly (the city more than the airport). But c'mon, AA flies crap 321s to LAX, doubtful that will change with the XLRs, but it could. AA uses PHL as a European "leisure" hub more than anything else. Would I love to see PHL get flights to Europe? Sure, absolutely. But it makes no sense for AA. It can probably more profitabely use the plane(s) elsewhere and make...
I'm a PHL hub-captive who happens to love Philly (the city more than the airport). But c'mon, AA flies crap 321s to LAX, doubtful that will change with the XLRs, but it could. AA uses PHL as a European "leisure" hub more than anything else. Would I love to see PHL get flights to Europe? Sure, absolutely. But it makes no sense for AA. It can probably more profitabely use the plane(s) elsewhere and make more (or lose less). Current management would need to change strategy (if there is one) to make PHL - Asia work. Can it be done? Maybe. But not with current management who can barely make the lucrative NYC market work.
Correction: "see PHL get flights to Asia."
I think most people would choose to fly the Japanese airlines over American anyway.
As someone who has flown 4 JAL round trips in 12 months, I agree. But DOT is tasked with awarding slots to U.S. airlines. And there are companies that have contracts with the domestic carriers that require flying the preferred carrier, etc. Not every can or wants to fly a foreign carrier.
It is kind of ironic that you say this. Americans (Westerners) enjoy being “wooed” by Asia-based carriers whereas more often than not, in this case, Japanese business clientele, they seem to take preference towards Western carriers, more so due to the fact that the crews are inattentive, hence giving them the ability to work or catch up on their rest before their meeting later that day. Japanese & Asia-based carriers are opposite in that they...
It is kind of ironic that you say this. Americans (Westerners) enjoy being “wooed” by Asia-based carriers whereas more often than not, in this case, Japanese business clientele, they seem to take preference towards Western carriers, more so due to the fact that the crews are inattentive, hence giving them the ability to work or catch up on their rest before their meeting later that day. Japanese & Asia-based carriers are opposite in that they can be too attentive, hence disturbing the work or rest that is being personalized on.
@Flyyaway, Japanese business clientele seem to prefer JAL if the J cabins on my flights are anything to go by.
Delta should be allowed to keep their slot and transfer it to JFK-HND. No one could have foreseen PDX’s market decline and being the largest carrier at JFK, DL is an obvious selection.
Any one with half a brain could've seen that PDX-HND not working for DL had nothing to do with Covid. Delta has zero feed on either end of that route. It would be like AA acting shocked that SMF-ICN somehow didn't work for them...
Delta had VERY limited feed for that flight from NRT at the end but there was no way a market of that size with no significant corporate presence in Japan...
Any one with half a brain could've seen that PDX-HND not working for DL had nothing to do with Covid. Delta has zero feed on either end of that route. It would be like AA acting shocked that SMF-ICN somehow didn't work for them...
Delta had VERY limited feed for that flight from NRT at the end but there was no way a market of that size with no significant corporate presence in Japan was ever going to work long term. Delta knew that but just wanted HND slots and went with a "if it was NRT, we'll ask for HND" strategy and ask DOT for something else later.
literally nothing has changed about the culture in PDX pre covid to now to change the economics of that flight.
Your insane and Your reasoning is flawed John. PDX has always been a dumpster fire and never could have supported such a flight anyways.
John,
the DOT made its decision about the transferability of the route so that ship has sailed.
And the people that argue that nothing changed regarding PDX-Tokyo clearly don't realize that Delta operated PDX-NRT before the pandemic, the new routes began available in March 2020 - weeks after the pandemic started, and several major companies including Nike were major Delta clients on the DL PDX-Tokyo flight even before the pandemic when DL had ALREADY...
John,
the DOT made its decision about the transferability of the route so that ship has sailed.
And the people that argue that nothing changed regarding PDX-Tokyo clearly don't realize that Delta operated PDX-NRT before the pandemic, the new routes began available in March 2020 - weeks after the pandemic started, and several major companies including Nike were major Delta clients on the DL PDX-Tokyo flight even before the pandemic when DL had ALREADY dropped all beyond Tokyo routes.
So it is unequivocally false that nothing changed and it is not a surprise that some of the loudest and lowest quality posters make their claim that nothing changed w/o a shred of facts to back up their statements.
If the route was not viable at the time of the HND route requests, DL would not have asked for it. There is no reason to think they would have grabbed a flight only to drop it. Their tolerance for putting up w/ losses is no less or greater than it was before.
What changed, Tim?
Did Nike cease making shoes?
Did delta lose Nike as a client? That alone should never have been the basis for a Haneda route allocation/request.
It’s not like Nike is making shoes in Japan. They beyond feed from narita kept the NRT flight and btw, pdx-NRT was about the only non hub flight left out of narita for delta.
Did Portland somehow become even more lawless and anti-corporate...
What changed, Tim?
Did Nike cease making shoes?
Did delta lose Nike as a client? That alone should never have been the basis for a Haneda route allocation/request.
It’s not like Nike is making shoes in Japan. They beyond feed from narita kept the NRT flight and btw, pdx-NRT was about the only non hub flight left out of narita for delta.
Did Portland somehow become even more lawless and anti-corporate in the last three years? No. It didn’t btw.
So tell us what changed that pdx-hnd, with no hub on either end for delta was ever going to work?
Delta just wanted more Haneda slots. They figured they’d come crying to dot later and it didn’t work for them.
I even mentioned the pdx-nrt flight in my comment. Of course I realize it was there but also the last one as a means to get an extra Haneda slot.
no, MAX, Delta operated PDX-NRT before covid and after the last beyond Tokyo flight ended.
Unless you have facts about the profitability of PDX-NRT under that time period, you are simply making up your own narrative.
The simple fact is that Delta had the advantage in the number of frequencies before covid and they will now simply because of the JVs that AA and UA have.
You and others want to believe that UA...
no, MAX, Delta operated PDX-NRT before covid and after the last beyond Tokyo flight ended.
Unless you have facts about the profitability of PDX-NRT under that time period, you are simply making up your own narrative.
The simple fact is that Delta had the advantage in the number of frequencies before covid and they will now simply because of the JVs that AA and UA have.
You and others want to believe that UA is free to keep adding flights when UA/NH already have the most HND slots.
based on the proposals that have been released by AA and UA, DL has a very good chance and high likelihood of winning back its own slot if it proposed service to any of JFK, BOS or SLC.
I think they will propose JFK and will rearrange the NYC to Asia market by US carriers, esp. when they add JFK-ICN
You're so deranged in your replies.
btw, I would recommend that people click on the link to the OMAAT story from 4 years ago when the most recent round of route awards were announced by the DOT.
Just as then, Ben does a pretty good job of noting the facts and putting balanced context with a few of his own personal commentaries.
The OMAAT article from 4 years ago includes reasons from the DOT why they did not grant...
btw, I would recommend that people click on the link to the OMAAT story from 4 years ago when the most recent round of route awards were announced by the DOT.
Just as then, Ben does a pretty good job of noting the facts and putting balanced context with a few of his own personal commentaries.
The OMAAT article from 4 years ago includes reasons from the DOT why they did not grant more routes to AA and UA.
It doesn't include all of the DOT's rationale in the route case but it is worth seeing what the DOT actually said when considering the route authorities.
PHL-HND would make more sense since there is no Asian flight out of PHL.
Totally agree with you
There’s a reason nobody’s flying Asia-PHL.
There’s a reason nobody’s flying Asia-PHL.
I don't have recent numbers, but in 2019, PHL was behind LAS, MCO, BNA, and even IND in terms of demand to TYO (HND+NRT), in that order.
Add total traffic to Japan, and the order remains the same, with LAS catapulting rather significantly beyond the other four; it's one of the main reasons KE flew there, as its ICN hub offers easy 1stop cnnx to the totality of Japan, arguably even easier than flying to Tokyo does.
We need to get a Miami -HND or NRT flight! It would be amazing!
I'd like MIA, too. There's no flight to Asia from MIA at all, so it'll attract most of the traffic to/from Asia. JL will connect to other region in Asia as well.
AA pretty well showed the world its intentions for MIA to Asia given that they would have had a decent chance in this route case IF DL chose to do nothing.
While it is very likely based on precedent that DL will win on a hub that doesn't have its own service and be granted it based on the JVs between AA/JL and UA/NH, the DOT could change that IF AA proposed a compelling...
AA pretty well showed the world its intentions for MIA to Asia given that they would have had a decent chance in this route case IF DL chose to do nothing.
While it is very likely based on precedent that DL will win on a hub that doesn't have its own service and be granted it based on the JVs between AA/JL and UA/NH, the DOT could change that IF AA proposed a compelling case for a new hub that has no Asia passenger service by a US carrier.
Since JL can move its slots, AA and JL effectively made the decision jointly that MIA won't see service to Japan unless and until there are a whole lot more frequencies available - which will make this whole allocation process a moot point if/when that day comes.
There's no flight to Asia from MIA at all
Not true. It just doesn't have any flights to east/southeast/southern Asia... and that's mostly a factor of it not having much demand, save for Hong Kong.
Cathay at one point was pushing Airbus to increase the A350's payload-range (which at that point was limited by an MTOW of only 268tonnes, compared to 283t/322t today) to allow it to fly profit-potential Hong Kong to Miami.
But they've longggg since lost interest in that.
Super glad to see this route return. I missed AA's JFK-NRT/HND flights. Somewhat surprised as the load factor was light, though
first, the DOT has not opened a route case to reallocate ANY HND slots. The DOT has to decide if HA's unwillingness to fly ALL of their CURRENTLY ALLOCATED routes requires action by the DOT. HA has said they "will comply" on their timeline but that is not the way route awards work. DL, in contrast, said it would not fly its PDX-HND allocation and returned the allocation; it is up to the DOT to...
first, the DOT has not opened a route case to reallocate ANY HND slots. The DOT has to decide if HA's unwillingness to fly ALL of their CURRENTLY ALLOCATED routes requires action by the DOT. HA has said they "will comply" on their timeline but that is not the way route awards work. DL, in contrast, said it would not fly its PDX-HND allocation and returned the allocation; it is up to the DOT to decide how and when to proceed.
By filing their intentions, outside of a DOT-instituted route allocation process, AA and UA both signal their intentions which make it easy for DL and HA to craft their own proposals.
Just as was the case with the latest round of China allocations, UA filed first, creating opportunity for AA and DL to create proposals which ended up being uncontested, including making DL the only US carrier to serve LAX to China.
second, other than to China, where all US carriers are operating at less than allocated levels, Delta will flying by spring 2024 the exact same routes it flew pre-covid minus PDX-HND.
third, DL was awarded more routes to HND than AA or UA because AA and UA have joint ventures with Japanese airlines and thus cumulatively more HND slots. There is no reason to believe that reality will result in any different outcome this time.
AA's JFK-HND proposal directly duplicates its JV partner JAL while UA's IAH-HND proposal does the same with NH. There is little chance that either proposal will prevail if Delta adds any new city that it does not currently serve - which, of its hubs, would include SLC, JFK or BOS.
At the end of the day, more internet bandwidth will have been wasted by aviation fans arguing about where the DL PDX-HND will be allocated when the DOT awards the allocated PDX frequency to DL at one of those 3 hubs, most likely being JFK.
And the real loser in all of this will be United which will lose its position as the only US carrier with service from the NE to East Asia. When Delta wins JFK-HND, as it is likely to do, and adds JFK-ICN, which it is also likely to do within the next few years, DL and UA will be competing directly from NYC to all global regions except for the Arab Middle East and India - and those two regions could also come for DL.
That’s a PR spin.
As you said, DL was already awarded the most HND slots, so why give them more?
It’s UA’s to lose, as the IAH-HND bid looks solid, with best connectivity on both sides of the pond…and I’m not a UA fanboy
Leigh,
it's not PR spin at all.
The US and Japan have Open Skies, except for at Haneda. Before Open Skies, the treaty between the US and Japan was a traditional negotiated agreement on routes. Japanese carriers wanted to get into the Joint Venture business which the US had agreed to with other countries as part of Open Skies. As part of the process for allocating HND flights, the US DOT has always considered...
Leigh,
it's not PR spin at all.
The US and Japan have Open Skies, except for at Haneda. Before Open Skies, the treaty between the US and Japan was a traditional negotiated agreement on routes. Japanese carriers wanted to get into the Joint Venture business which the US had agreed to with other countries as part of Open Skies. As part of the process for allocating HND flights, the US DOT has always considered the role that JVs play in Japan. Delta received more HND routes at every turn because it does not have a Japanese JV partner while AA and UA do. AA and UA, through their JVs, can jointly schedule and allocate capacity at HND so AA/JL and UA/NH have effective control over much more of HND than DL.
There is no reason to believe that the DOT will change that priority to DL in the larger number of slots that DL itself is given.
The whole reason the DOT denied DL's request to move slots was solely based on the DOT's desire to retain control over the frequency allocation process; in their believe, it makes no sense to have a route allocation process specific to a route and then allow the carrier to move that authority.
DL has not ever said what they intend to do after announcing their withdrawal from PDX-HND or if they even intend to bid for that frequency but it is certain that they will.
As long as DL comes up w/ any proposal that has merits on its own - and SLC, BOS or JFK all could work if DL wanted - DL would likely have the edge over anything AA or UA could propose.
JFK is just the largest market and also a large DL hub in a metro area where DL is growing its presence relative to United.
A_Japanese
JFK-ICN is one of the largest foreign US markets including to ICN, right alongside LAX-ICN. DL has said they intend to serve LAX-ICN at some point in the future but they are clearly not doing anything until the Korean-Asiana merger is sorted out so as not to interfere in that process.
Many airlines serve duplicate routes with their JV partners so JFK-ICN is potentially viable as a DL metal market alongside KE in the future.
While I agree with you that DL will be awarded HND slots from their NE hub (not sure about SLC - do they have enough demand to Japan?), I doubt JFK-ICN as JV partner KE already serve 2 daily flights with 747-8 and A380 and KE could take over OZ frequency once merger is complete. Are there still more demands?
The fact that a case hasn't been opened has nothing to do with this post. I'm guessing DL had a pretty good idea about its strategy even without the current "news." Last time I checked, the First Amendment hasn't been repealed, so the DOT really can't stop UA and AA from offering their opinions. I'm also guessing that the proper filings will be made when the case is opened.
No one knows with any...
The fact that a case hasn't been opened has nothing to do with this post. I'm guessing DL had a pretty good idea about its strategy even without the current "news." Last time I checked, the First Amendment hasn't been repealed, so the DOT really can't stop UA and AA from offering their opinions. I'm also guessing that the proper filings will be made when the case is opened.
No one knows with any certainty what the DOT will do. But, speculating a bit, I do think Delta would have a better chance to win its old slot back because it doesn't have a Japanese JV partner. The next carrier in my "speculation pecking order" would be American because it and JAL have far fewer frequencies than UA/ANA. All of this is a bit like predicting the outcome of a football game.
who said anything about anyone violating anything about the 1st amendment?
relax, son.
Yes, it does have to do with the filings by both AA and UA for a route case that doesn't exist.
And it has everything to do with the speculation about where the DL PDX route allocation will end up.
I'm glad you recognize that JV partners matter in the process which is why DL is likely sitting back and...
who said anything about anyone violating anything about the 1st amendment?
relax, son.
Yes, it does have to do with the filings by both AA and UA for a route case that doesn't exist.
And it has everything to do with the speculation about where the DL PDX route allocation will end up.
I'm glad you recognize that JV partners matter in the process which is why DL is likely sitting back and waiting for AA and UA to "speak" so it can come in and come up w/ a proposal that they are assured to win.
TD: “relax, son.”
You really are a patronizing SOB. You keep talking about how no route case has been opened. Where in Lucky’s post did he say so? The fact is that one *will* be opened, and AA has stated its intention to apply.
STFU. Just once in a while. Please. Go write on Seeking Alpha.
my comment was direct at the person that brought up first amendment rights. And only to that person for that reason.
And, yes, it is all noise until the DOT opens a route case.
As much as a whole lot of people including OMAAT want to talk about what will happen to the ex-DL PDX-HND route allocation, it simply doesn't matter until the DOT opens a route case.
There simply is no benefit to anyone...
my comment was direct at the person that brought up first amendment rights. And only to that person for that reason.
And, yes, it is all noise until the DOT opens a route case.
As much as a whole lot of people including OMAAT want to talk about what will happen to the ex-DL PDX-HND route allocation, it simply doesn't matter until the DOT opens a route case.
There simply is no benefit to anyone from putting their request in before a route case has been opened.
The only benefit that is gained is for DL which now knows what AA and UA want and have requested.
None of which changes the fact that DL will have first priority just as it has for every other round of HND route allocations because of the JVs that AA and UA have w/ Japanese airlines.
and you contributed to the discussion, how? Nada.
You implied that United and American should keep their corporate mouths shut until the DOT open up a hearing. So I responded to that. By the way, I'm probably a fair amount older than you are, although I don't know that for a fact. I do agree with you that all the speculation about there routes is meaningless - and that will be true even after the official notice has been given - but it is kind of fun to read all the back and forth.
no, I didn't say that AA or UA should keep their mouths shut.
I said that all of the endless internet speculation is meaningless.
And I don't care what other people say but when the same thing has been said over and over again and is repeated w/o the context of that it is the DOT's decision, it does get more than nauseating.
with all due respect, what does age have to with the ability to make a point?
Tim, this blog is about meaningless speculation - at times. Go write your stock views over at Seeking Alpha. How about you allow others to meaningless speculate at times, in stead of being an @$$.
And age matters not a bit, but it is rude to call someone else “son”.
I would disagree that this blog is about meaningless discussion.
I would also feel why you and others feel the need to defend someone that is fully capable of writing himself.
And I also find it comical how much focus you and others put on me when you, at the same time, tell me you don't want to read anything more from me.
Honestly, just move on if it isn't of interest and leave other people to do what they want to do.
But HAL is indeed willing as evidenced by the plan they laid out when they announced the resumption of KOA-HND. There is only one slot pair up for grabs and that’s the DL PDX slot.
while I agree that they have a plan, the exemption ends ~ 10/31/2023 and HA's proposal doesn't fit that plan which could trigger the DOT to issue an order to reinstate the route effective 11/1 although I don't think they will do that.
Still, the DOT is sticking to the law as it exists and UA does have a point in arguing that HA is violating the requirements even if no one else is wrapped...
while I agree that they have a plan, the exemption ends ~ 10/31/2023 and HA's proposal doesn't fit that plan which could trigger the DOT to issue an order to reinstate the route effective 11/1 although I don't think they will do that.
Still, the DOT is sticking to the law as it exists and UA does have a point in arguing that HA is violating the requirements even if no one else is wrapped up about it.
It still is very possible that UA, which is making the most noise about more HND access and thinks it should be entitled to more - even though it has the most including w/ NH, probably won't get anything if HA prevails.
The nighttime slot that HA is using could be used for GUM but doesn't work for the mainland.
Remember that UA is the only airline that was excluded from operating any nighttime slots when they first came out again, because of their size to Japan because of the NH JV
What people don’t realize is how disadvantaged DL is now compared now to before the pandemic. At one point, DL was both the largest and most profitable airline in the Pacific. Then eventually UA surpassed DL in size but not profitability. Then in the last four quarters, UA ended up taking both titles from DL. This large disadvantage for DL is the prime advantage for DL and not AA getting JFK-HND.
What’s even more mind...
What people don’t realize is how disadvantaged DL is now compared now to before the pandemic. At one point, DL was both the largest and most profitable airline in the Pacific. Then eventually UA surpassed DL in size but not profitability. Then in the last four quarters, UA ended up taking both titles from DL. This large disadvantage for DL is the prime advantage for DL and not AA getting JFK-HND.
What’s even more mind boggling, is that between Q3 2022 and Q1 2023 inclusive DL brought in billions of dollars more in revenue than UA across all systems, but still was less profitable than UA. To make matters worse, DL has historically performed better than UA in all quarters but especially in Q4 and Q1.
Unlike AA and UA, DL has less avenues to reduce cost. It’s already paying less for fuel than either AA or UA. DL is using almost entirely new generation aircraft for the Pacific. AA can reconfigure its 777-300ER similarly to UA to bring CASM to reasonable numbers. UA can pivot the 777s to shorter routes while substituting with the 787-10 like in Chicago, which is more efficient than the A350-900. Or like AA, with the 787-9 which is more efficient, has better performance, and longer range than the A330neo.
As AA and UA continue to close the profitability gap with DL, we’ll start to see more and more of these desperation measure by Atlanta similar to the SkyMiles debacle. Hail Mary’s rarely work so it’s unsurprising to see DL onboard a professional NFL player who has no aviation experience, rarely flies commercial, and generates negative brand association in hubs other than BOS. At this point, no one really knows who running the show any more. Is it Glen? Is it Ed? Is it the board? Is it Tom Brady? Or likely none of the above?
The DOT will give DL the lifeline it needs with JFK-HND since KE-OZ merger is likely DOA as OZ regains profitability. This means UA/NH ends up with 16 routes, AA/JL 11 routes and DL solo venture with 7.
don't get whiplash from all of that data-slinging and manipulation you are doing. I got nauseated just reading the gyrations you are throwing readers on.
- Delta was NOT the largest airline across the Pacific AND the most profitable at the same time.
- NW was the largest airline across the Pacific and Delta had that title only until UA and CO merged.
- NW lost billions flying the Pacific which is...
don't get whiplash from all of that data-slinging and manipulation you are doing. I got nauseated just reading the gyrations you are throwing readers on.
- Delta was NOT the largest airline across the Pacific AND the most profitable at the same time.
- NW was the largest airline across the Pacific and Delta had that title only until UA and CO merged.
- NW lost billions flying the Pacific which is why Delta moved pretty quickly to restructure its acquired Pacific operations.
- Delta has been handedly the most profitable across the Pacific for years
- United was the most profitable US airline for precisely ONE QUARTER - 3Q2022 - because they retained aircraft and quickly accommodated post-covid demand. In 4Q2022 and ever since, UAL's profits have trailed DAL and in some cases also AAL.
DAL just reported its 3rd quarter 2023 financials - first airline to do so - and it is certain that they will be not only the most profitable US airline but UAL will fall even further behind.
DL also said that their revenue in NYC and BOS is growing, undoubtedly due to their strategic success against AA, B6 and UA in the NE.
and your last paragraph highlights yet again your twisting of facts. Japan IS part of the DL/KE joint venture but it is not based at Japan.
You and others can't accept that DL is succeeding and will succeed at making Japan an O&D country and ICN its connecting hub.
NRT is a failing airport because HND is pulling high revenue passengers - which is precisely why UA wants to move IAH from NRT to HND.
You did get right that the DOT will award the ex-PDX-HND route to DL, likely for JFK-HND
Sorry Tim. You misunderstand the facts and come to the wrong conclusion yet again. You’re correct that UA was more profitable in the 3Q 2023. DL also had more loses than AA or UA in 1Q 2023 and was the least profitable of the US3 but also for 3Q 2022-1Q 2023.
1Q 2023 Net income.
DL -273M
UA -194M
AA +84M
If you include the previous two quarters
3Q 2022 to 1Q...
Sorry Tim. You misunderstand the facts and come to the wrong conclusion yet again. You’re correct that UA was more profitable in the 3Q 2023. DL also had more loses than AA or UA in 1Q 2023 and was the least profitable of the US3 but also for 3Q 2022-1Q 2023.
1Q 2023 Net income.
DL -273M
UA -194M
AA +84M
If you include the previous two quarters
3Q 2022 to 1Q 2023
Net Income
AA 1.48B
DL 1.41B
UA 1.59B
Total Revenue
AA 38.84B
DL 40.24B
UA 36.71B
So in the end, DL was first in revenue but last in profitability. DL moves volume, but AA and UA move profits. Thank you for acknowledging that DL and not AA will get JFK-HND because of its numerous disadvantages including its Japan solo venture and declining profitability.
AF, KE, AA, UA, and AC are among several airlines finding success serving both HND and NRT. Unfortunately, DL simply couldn’t operate out of both airport at a profit like several other carriers otherwise they’d still be at NRT. The same could be said about the 777s. DL doesn’t tolerate loses so it’s easy to understand that they couldn’t operate that type at a profit like it’s JV partners and NA competitors.
It’s also worth mentioning that DL lost 11 BILLION in just two quarters of 2020 which is more than the total loses for either AA or UA for the entirety of 2020-2021. DL also has less cash flow currently than either AA or UA which explains DL’s will they/won’t they approach in buying new widebodies. There’s absolute desperation in Atlanta for A35K MRO rights as a requirement of the purchase because DL’s need to boost non-transportation revenue to compensate for their underperforming and low margin transportation sector. Same goes for the SkyMiles Hail Mary.
But the rumor is that a SkyClub employee is in France this week, so that wide body order may come as soon as yesterday.
"data-slinging and manipulation"
Says the king of data-slinging and manipulation. Yes, we can agree that Delta has been the most profitable airline for a while. But some the DOT data you sling doesn't always tell the full story. Delta is a good airline. But we'll see if it continues.
Lucky, I disagree with your assessment that AA is unlikely to be granted service. AA should be more likely to get the slots than UA, for two reasons:
1. The AA JFK service is new and will add seat capacity to the US-TYO market. Whereas UA is simply moving its NRT flights to HND. DOT’s primary assessment should be which service adds more seats to the market.
2. US-Japan flying is currently dominated...
Lucky, I disagree with your assessment that AA is unlikely to be granted service. AA should be more likely to get the slots than UA, for two reasons:
1. The AA JFK service is new and will add seat capacity to the US-TYO market. Whereas UA is simply moving its NRT flights to HND. DOT’s primary assessment should be which service adds more seats to the market.
2. US-Japan flying is currently dominated by UA+ANA JV. It is in the public’s best interests to see the AA+JAL JV get more powerful.
Unless DL decides to join the battle and propose new service, which is highly unlikely, I see DOT granting the service to AA. Great to see more nonstop Asia flights from the east coast.
I'm not sure why you or anyone else freely use the term "unlikely" about DL because they have not been asked to to ask for anything. The DOT has not opened a route case.
AA was simply drawn into the process by UA's zeal to further monopolize the market but neither proposal gains any more advantage over any other airline that ultimately does file a proposal when the DOT opens a route case.
All...
I'm not sure why you or anyone else freely use the term "unlikely" about DL because they have not been asked to to ask for anything. The DOT has not opened a route case.
AA was simply drawn into the process by UA's zeal to further monopolize the market but neither proposal gains any more advantage over any other airline that ultimately does file a proposal when the DOT opens a route case.
All AA and UA have done is let DL know their intentions and since both are duplicating joint venture routes, both are likely DOA as long as DL asks for anything that is new to ITS network.
Jesus Tim, shut up about route cases.
First, you said that DL would be allowed to transfer PDX to another location. Without reapplying. You were wrong. So you then changed it to “when they reapply, they will get it.” Now every time someone posts about AA or UA having an intention, you babble on about route cases.
So answer this now - for the record - is the DOT going to open a route case?...
Jesus Tim, shut up about route cases.
First, you said that DL would be allowed to transfer PDX to another location. Without reapplying. You were wrong. So you then changed it to “when they reapply, they will get it.” Now every time someone posts about AA or UA having an intention, you babble on about route cases.
So answer this now - for the record - is the DOT going to open a route case? Yes or no? I say yes - it has to. Will DL apply? Sure? Will AA and UA - probably. Who has the best chance of winning - perhaps DL. Probably. But definitely? No.
Now answer for the record - is DOT going to open a route case - yes or no?
if the DOT decides to award the now unused PDX-HND route authority, yes, they will open a route case.
Tell us how else, w/ precedent, you think the DOT would handle the case.
And, also, please post where I EVER said that Delta would definitely win its case to transfer its route.
I said I expected that the DOT would agree to allow the move based on the fact that AA and HA BOTH supported...
if the DOT decides to award the now unused PDX-HND route authority, yes, they will open a route case.
Tell us how else, w/ precedent, you think the DOT would handle the case.
And, also, please post where I EVER said that Delta would definitely win its case to transfer its route.
I said I expected that the DOT would agree to allow the move based on the fact that AA and HA BOTH supported the request.
DOT clearly isn't willing to allow airlines to decide their own route cases by moving routes around so they denied DL's request which, again, was supported by AA and HA, meaning that 3 out of the 4 US airlines that serve HND were told "No"
Tell us if UA gained anything more than anyone else by announcing its intentions for China BEFORE the DOT solicited requests? Nope. They got the exact same number of flights as AA and DL even though UA argued it was ready to launch flights immediately while AA and DL are phasing in flights over the next 6 months.
Nobody is stopping any airline from filing whatever comments they want w/ the DOT but it won't change the outcome by commenting early. All AA and UA's HND filings do is allow DL to craft a proposal that will allow it to retain the slot it tried to transfer.
thank you, btw, for discussing the issue at hand.
Tim, my point is that DOT *will* open a route case. Can you ever answer a question directly. What is your *opinion* - will DOT open a route case? Yes or no?
Still haven’t answered Tim. Yes or no? Will the DOT open a route case? (It’s not that hard to answer.)
I'm honestly sure how any one w/ a modicum of intelligence could not see the "yes" in the first sentence.
The only option would be if the DOT chooses NOT to award the route to anyone. Highly unlikely but one reason why they wouldn't open a route case.
You do realize that the DOT used to award backup authority in route cases so there was no need to open a route case if an airline...
I'm honestly sure how any one w/ a modicum of intelligence could not see the "yes" in the first sentence.
The only option would be if the DOT chooses NOT to award the route to anyone. Highly unlikely but one reason why they wouldn't open a route case.
You do realize that the DOT used to award backup authority in route cases so there was no need to open a route case if an airline failed to fly what was granted to them?
However, I am pretty sure there is no backup authority in the latest HND route case.
So my question to you, unanswered, is how else would the DOT award the unused HND authority if not through a route case.
Of course the DOT will open a route case. You and I both know it. It is in the public interest to do so.
Until they do, it is all speculation. Given how badly all of the speculation went in predicting the outcome of the China service increases from the majority of people, I am expecting the majority of people to also be wrong in what they want or expect in the HND route case = which will not happen until the DOT answers HA's statement that it is not planning to use all of its authority until after the usage exemption expires and then some.
Fine, then what is wrong with “meaningless” speculation? We both agree DOT will open a route case. Both AA and UA have announced what they would like to fly. Both times you attack it saying that because no route case is open, that it doesn’t matter. Let people talk about for Christ’s sake. I attack you because you are pompous and can never admit when you are wrong. There is no right or wrong here, so you then call it meaningless speculation.
Tim, as for questing my intelligence. you hedged your yes with “if the DOT”… which I called out. I keep asking why wouldn’t the DOT reopen it? Why not? Of course it will.
And Tim, you clearly stated on VFTW that DL would be allowed to transfer PDX to JFK. Then you changed your story to say that DL would get JFK when they reapplied. I say now, as I said then, let’s wait...
Tim, as for questing my intelligence. you hedged your yes with “if the DOT”… which I called out. I keep asking why wouldn’t the DOT reopen it? Why not? Of course it will.
And Tim, you clearly stated on VFTW that DL would be allowed to transfer PDX to JFK. Then you changed your story to say that DL would get JFK when they reapplied. I say now, as I said then, let’s wait and see. I predict UA (or AA) are more likely to get it for various reasons. But at least I admit that is just my opinion.
and how is my opinion any less or more of an opinion?
I love how you see the internet as one big aviation chat forum and glad you know you actively participate or at least read many of them.
I think we have agreed that the DOT will award the route through a route case even though seemed to get wound up about that earlier in this thread.
The rest is just noise
According to Great Circle Mapper, the shortest route from Haneda to Sao Paulo is right over New York City (although alternative routes aren't really a whole lot farther). And American has a very large presence in Brazil and other parts of Latin America. In addition to New York O&D, there's also a very large Japanese ex-pat population in Brazil. In my opinion, Miami wouldn't work because almost all passengers connecting from the U.S. would have...
According to Great Circle Mapper, the shortest route from Haneda to Sao Paulo is right over New York City (although alternative routes aren't really a whole lot farther). And American has a very large presence in Brazil and other parts of Latin America. In addition to New York O&D, there's also a very large Japanese ex-pat population in Brazil. In my opinion, Miami wouldn't work because almost all passengers connecting from the U.S. would have to backtrack, and few people want to do that. American may simply be repositioning itself in New York instead of retrenching, and there's always the possibility that a sot swap or other arrangement with jetBlue could be worked out once its merger with Spirit is either approved or found to be anti-competitive. No one knows what will happen at this point.
The US won’t consider connectivity from Japan to SoAm…period. Nonsensical.
I never implied that it would. I was simply making a possible business case for JFK over other potential routes.
United has already been successful in one thing… setting the narrative. Even if it’s factually false. Now all the bloggers and wanna be journalists are running with the story, not even bothering to fact check or research what’s real and not real. Despite the falsehoods, UA IAH-HND has merit. Or perhaps DL wants to hold on to the slot, but move it to a new gateway, as they wanted to in the very beginning.
...United has already been successful in one thing… setting the narrative. Even if it’s factually false. Now all the bloggers and wanna be journalists are running with the story, not even bothering to fact check or research what’s real and not real. Despite the falsehoods, UA IAH-HND has merit. Or perhaps DL wants to hold on to the slot, but move it to a new gateway, as they wanted to in the very beginning.
Facts…
Only DL is giving up a slot.
HA does not have 5/wk KOA-HND. It’s a night time slot split 3/wk to KOA and 4/wk HNL.
HA is indeed using the slot, contrary to the fake news started by UA. They’re ramping up service between Oct and Mar, in compliance with the rules.
I’m an AA fanboy…but I think it clear US’s IAH-HND is so far the best proposal.
JFK has plenty of existing lift. IAH has better connectivity.
DL or HA? Nope, for several reasons.
I meant to refer to UA.
Do you actually think UA will keep IAH-NRT if IAH-HND is added? And if UA gets permission to add GUM-HND, do you think they will keep GUM-NRT? It is quite obvious that if UA gets the slots nothing will change, all they are doing is shifting their flights from NRT to HND; however, if AA gets the slots, they will be adding more seats to the market which means more competition.
United will still fly GUM-NRT as the current schedule sees just under 4x daily between the two. Launching GUM-HND will result in one daily GUM-NRT slot being returned but not a full abandonment.
I wonder if there is a business model of catering to traffic from Japan to South America via Miami? If so AA could apply for a HND to Miami slot and arrange schedule for connecting traffic on AA metal
If there were, they would have.
Most traffic from South America to Japan nowadays goes through Doha on Qatar Airways, Dubai on Emirates, or the various European airlines that fly from Europe to South America. Those connections do not require that passengers clear immigration and customs in those countries, while travel through the United States does. Further, no visa is required for transit through Europe/Middle East, while it is for those from South America going...
If there were, they would have.
Most traffic from South America to Japan nowadays goes through Doha on Qatar Airways, Dubai on Emirates, or the various European airlines that fly from Europe to South America. Those connections do not require that passengers clear immigration and customs in those countries, while travel through the United States does. Further, no visa is required for transit through Europe/Middle East, while it is for those from South America going to Japan. Some traffic does transit through the U.S. from South America to Asia, of course, but there are already better gateways for that purpose. AA gets that traffic now through DFW, which is a much better hub for this than Miami. UA does through Houston. DL does through Atlanta.
In short, had AA seen a business case for it, they probably would have made the application.
As far as Lucky's postulation about the other markets like Charlotte, PHL, etc, well, those markets simply dont have the point to point demand that a New York has...
A lot of factors here - and some that have changed over time.
If anyone recalls the JFK-HND with a late night/midnight landing time in HND from legacy AA, the route didn't work - thanks to the bad slots. AA wanted TYO from JFK and could see the sales from JV partner JL.
With the new norm travelling to/from Asia, TYO has more to gain from the perspectives of O&D and connecting traffic. AA...
A lot of factors here - and some that have changed over time.
If anyone recalls the JFK-HND with a late night/midnight landing time in HND from legacy AA, the route didn't work - thanks to the bad slots. AA wanted TYO from JFK and could see the sales from JV partner JL.
With the new norm travelling to/from Asia, TYO has more to gain from the perspectives of O&D and connecting traffic. AA will find it easier to route pax via HND/NRT than HKG (Russia airspace). The push from B6 might ignite the spark again.
Last but not least, the revenge on DL in previous rounds of HND slot allocation.
Everyone knows that AA longhaul flight attendants are the worst. Anyone remember that awful DFW-HKG flight Ben went on?
https://onemileatatime.com/american-airlines-first-class-service/
Give it to Singapore as a fifth freedom or something.
I just flew two longhaul segments on American in business class and had outstanding service. Sure there are some bad apples as Ben experienced, but that's not a reason to deny an application.
These sots can only be allocated to U.S. airlines.
Fine give it to JetBlue and Delta, anyone but AA
JetBlue has no interest in the slots, their planes don't even have the range to fly to Japan.
Delta has not filed a request for the slots, why would the DOT give Delta slots that they never asked for?
You might want to think through what you are saying before you post.
Grow up Eric. If you’re 15 years old you should be in school and not playing on here.
It’s a joke, can’t teach humor in school it seems.
It really does seem that way if this is the best joke you can come up with.
AA really missed the boat by going JFK instead of MIA/SEA, but at least they didn’t apply for DFW/LAS again, so they’re learning from their mistakes!
AA execs are probably just noticing the "COME TO JAPAN / LIVING IN 2050" TikTok trend from 6 months ago, and now realizing they shouldn't have bailed so hard on that market.
It's okay, AA. Your OneWorld partners are better.
Gosh, you mean that folks would rather spend their 14 hour trip on JL than AA, in any class of travel? Surely not?!
@Pete
I just got upgraded to AA J from HND to LAX and pre ordered the Japanese meal set. I also get JAL lounge access. It will be a great experience with American.
Should also note that AA flew JFK-HND years ago. Not sure when it ended, but I flew it back in 2012. It was on a 772 with F, J, and Y IIRC
That would be NRT and they used to have an Admirals Club which has been taken over by CX
they did switch to HND for some time and went to a weird time, maybe like 9pm and arriving at 1am or so
IIRC, AA's short-lived JFK-HND service was a red-eye to Japan similar to the current overnight JAL flight, and then immediately turned around with a 6 am departure from HND to JFK, as it was an allocation of overnight slots and couldn't operate during more civilized hours. Absolutely terrible flight times and no wonder it quickly disappeared.
At the time the slot restrictions didn’t provide great timing for the flights…just wasn’t commercially viable. Things have changed.
Most people in this discussion need to get lives and the operator of this site needs to curtail the off topic slanging, like Executive Traveller from Australia does. This site is a bit of a joke now.
That was a nighttime slot. This is a daytime slot. Big difference.
Correct, back then the 777-200 were a 3 class configuration. F/J/Y. All of AA 777-200 aircraft’s are currently BC/PE/MCE/MC