Among the “big three” US carriers, there’s a growing profitability gap. Delta has long been the most profitable US carrier, though what has changed is that United has been catching up with Delta, while American has been falling further behind.
For years, American was headed down the wrong path, as part of the vision of Chief Commercial Officer Vasu Raja, who has since been fired. Well, American now seems ready to admit that changes are needed… will the airline actually be serious about these changes, or is this just lip service?
In this post:
American admits it needs to invest in product and service
American has revealed a major shakeup to its corporate structure, as flagged by @xJonNYC. A few days ago, American CEO Robert Isom sent out a memo to employees, explaining that Steve Johnson, American’s Vice Chair and Chief Strategy Officer, has spent the past eight months working on developing an updated commercial strategy.
In that memo, Isom explained that a new Customer Experience organization will be created at the airline, which he described as follows:
While we are proud of the work that our Operations and Commercial teams have accomplished, as we move forward, it is clear we need a centralized, cohesive team charged with transforming how our customers experience and engage with our airline. With this in mind, today we are announcing the creation of a new Customer Experience organization that will drive the strategy and coordinate the implementation of the initiatives that define our customers’ journeys with American.
The Customer Experience organization will advocate on behalf of customers and provide a holistic view of the entire customer journey — from booking to bags to inflight experience to customer feedback. We anticipate having more to share on new programs for our customers in the weeks and months ahead.
Okay, that sounds nice, but doesn’t necessarily tell us a whole lot, or suggest that there will be a massive change to American’s strategy. However, today Johnson sent out a memo to employees, which spells things out a little more clearly:
Heather Garboden will take on the new role of Chief Customer Officer leading a unified Customer Experience team. It is abundantly clear the competitive battleground in the network airline business has, like never before, shifted sharply to product and customer service. As our ability to outperform in revenue will depend increasingly on embracing that reality and delivering a different and elevated customer experience, especially for our premium and lost loyal customers. Heather will help us all embrace this change, bringing a new, thoughtful and holistic approach to designing every aspect of the customer journey, and partner closely with the Operations team to consistently deliver it. Her new team will ensure we put the customer at the center of our strategic thinking and offer products our team members are proud to deliver and our customers are excited to buy.
I think that bolded part above is really pretty remarkable. A few days ago, Isom vaguely suggested that there’s room for improvement, but Johnson is making a clear admission that the current strategy is broken, and that American needs to focus on customer experience.
What could this American transformation look like?
Is American actually going to materially change its strategy, or is this all just talk? I’m sure American will highlight that it plans to install new business class seats on long haul aircraft, will open a Flagship Lounge in Philadelphia, and is installing high speed Wi-Fi on its regional jets. That’s all nice, of course, but that’s nothing new, and that was all already planned before the airline admitted it needs to focus on customer experience.
United has very nicely transformed itself in recent years, but the airline also had several advantages. For one, the airline sort of developed a new strategy as travel demand rebounded after the pandemic, which was a great time to develop a new strategy, since the industry was kind of disrupted. Furthermore, United has already historically had an amazing global route network, so it had that to build on, since that’s a major part of being a premium airline.
But in the case of American, it’s a little trickier. I mean, for one, going back a decade, the airline invested money to install seat back TVs on narrow body aircraft, only to then spend money ripping seat back TVs out of aircraft. As Raja famously said, American’s “product” was its schedule, and not its service or anything else. The irony, there, of course, is that American’s long haul network is pretty uncompetitive. But Raja also didn’t mind that, because he was more excited by El Paso than Hong Kong (nothing against El Paso…).
What could American do at this point? I mean, the airline could add free Wi-Fi, greatly improve its lounges, have more of a focus on recognizing loyal customers, and I guess it could once again install TVs on planes.
However, I also feel like the damage that has been done to the airline in recent years will be really hard to undo. American has ceded market share to competitors at so many airports, and it’s challenging to build that back. American of course has its fortress hubs in Charlotte (CLT) and Dallas (DFW), and its strong hubs in Miami (MIA), Philadelphia (PHL), and Phoenix (PHX). But beyond that, American just doesn’t have many strengths, including in Los Angeles (LAX) and New York (JFK).
I just struggle to see where the airline can simply jump in and transform itself, given for how long executives at the carrier have been asleep at the wheel, as competitors have gained ground.
The irony in American’s weakness is that the airline has some of the industry’s most powerful joint ventures, with British Airways, Japan Airlines, and Qantas. Despite that, the company can’t make many things work…
Bottom line
American is now significantly less profitable than both Delta and United, after pursuing a failed strategy for years. The company has set up a new Customer Experience department, and the carrier’s head of strategy has made it clear that in order to have good revenue performance, the airline needs to focus on service, and a differentiated product. It’s anyone’s guess how this goes, but executives at the carrier are certainly saying the right thing…
What do you make of American’s plan to become more premium? Do you think we’ll see material changes, or is this all talk?
I just boarded the AA flight Auckland to DFW, in Business class, and asked for pajamas. I was told that AA discontinued this amenity several months ago. Seriously? How much does a pair of cheap pj’s cost compared to a $6k ticket? I’m enjoying my pre-flight drink in a cheap plastic cup whilst admiring an amenity bag with 5 items in it (no socks).
AA cannot change its culture when it has an army...
I just boarded the AA flight Auckland to DFW, in Business class, and asked for pajamas. I was told that AA discontinued this amenity several months ago. Seriously? How much does a pair of cheap pj’s cost compared to a $6k ticket? I’m enjoying my pre-flight drink in a cheap plastic cup whilst admiring an amenity bag with 5 items in it (no socks).
AA cannot change its culture when it has an army of mindless minions trained to figure out how to save a few penny’s while ignorant of the dollars they could make - just by matching service and amenities with competitors. These people never understood that people like me will work hard to book other airlines at every convenient opportunity to avoid the misery of the American “experience”!
Finally - has anyone in customer experience even flown on Qantas or Air New Zealand, not even thinking about Qatar , Cathay and so on?
I could tell the Chief Flight Attendant was embarrassed for her employer.
When the 321 XLR gets delivered, make PHL a transatlantic narrow body hub & move all the wide bodies to JFK. PHL is not a premium market, JFK is. And even though JFK doesnt have the feed that PHL has, it manages to fill EZE, DEL, GRU, HND--Long haul flights on a daily basis---not seasonal either
I despise spell check. Make "contract" into "contrail" above.
My biggest concern when flying international Business Class is space and comfort. American's current offering aboard its 777s and 787s is cramped and uncomfortable. Hopefully AA's new attempt at a quality passenger experience will follow the example of Cathay's Aria Suites or even BA's new Club World Suites aboard its 777-300s and 787-10s. It'd also be nice if AA ditched its gloomy battleship gray interiors...
I despise spell check. Make "contract" into "contrail" above.
My biggest concern when flying international Business Class is space and comfort. American's current offering aboard its 777s and 787s is cramped and uncomfortable. Hopefully AA's new attempt at a quality passenger experience will follow the example of Cathay's Aria Suites or even BA's new Club World Suites aboard its 777-300s and 787-10s. It'd also be nice if AA ditched its gloomy battleship gray interiors for something even moderately more cheerful such as navy blue and beige
I am, and have been exec plat for some years. Your service, recently downgraded between MIA and LAX, reduced a/o eliminated non-stops between Southern Florida and NY, use of Charlotte and US Air-planes, makes us feel that AA is looking to be SW Air type. Furthermore, punishing people by not providing understanding of personal or medical issues of life all serves to drive us to other carriers!
I remember back in the Seventies and Eighties when American's domestic product in both F and Y was excellent. And for a while there in the late Nineties, it's international F soft product was right up there with the best of them, except maybe wines and spirits.
Doug Parker's arrival marked a steepening of American's long, steady decline - especially in J and F.
I wish American well in its effort to turn over a...
I remember back in the Seventies and Eighties when American's domestic product in both F and Y was excellent. And for a while there in the late Nineties, it's international F soft product was right up there with the best of them, except maybe wines and spirits.
Doug Parker's arrival marked a steepening of American's long, steady decline - especially in J and F.
I wish American well in its effort to turn over a new leaf, but it will take more than a few years of sustained excellence before I'm convinced that this talk of customer experience improvements has any more substance than a contract. Until then, whenever feasible, my international business class expenditures will be with non - U.S. carriers
AA has consistently failed its customers for years. Sadly, they have not cared. It sounds like they are about to fail again. They need to ask and listen to the voice of its customers. I am not just talking about assembling a bunch of CK’s in some posh setting, but conducting listening sessions with its corporate clients, long time road warriors and frequent flyers, and seek feedback. Listen intently, understand what is good and the...
AA has consistently failed its customers for years. Sadly, they have not cared. It sounds like they are about to fail again. They need to ask and listen to the voice of its customers. I am not just talking about assembling a bunch of CK’s in some posh setting, but conducting listening sessions with its corporate clients, long time road warriors and frequent flyers, and seek feedback. Listen intently, understand what is good and the areas that need to change (business practices, customer service, soft product, hard product etc). AA will hear it needs to make some big changes in how it approaches many things, but start by asking and listening to its customers as opposed to sending a finance guy into a conference room for 8 months to develop a new approach and a new way of telling us what we ‘really’ want from AA.
that is all true but they have to commit to spending the time and money to get it right.
AA had a brief moment post covid where they realized that on-time mattered to corporate customers and they had very good on-time numbers.
Then they realized how much it cost UPFRONT to be on-time - before they saw the financial return on their investment.
SO they walked away from on-time and are now mid-tier among...
that is all true but they have to commit to spending the time and money to get it right.
AA had a brief moment post covid where they realized that on-time mattered to corporate customers and they had very good on-time numbers.
Then they realized how much it cost UPFRONT to be on-time - before they saw the financial return on their investment.
SO they walked away from on-time and are now mid-tier among airlines. better than B6 but nowhere near the top performers.
and far worse in baggage. like bottom of the barrel bad.
and they throw people off overbooked airplanes like nobody's business.
AA has to take the time to FIX what is wrong and do it regardless whether they see a short term benefit or not.
If it matters - and all of the stuff they know matters really does - it will show up in the bottom line results in time.
Problem is that AA doesn't generate the bottom line results to wait - so their premium strategy will be what they can afford now, which is not much
Amen!
Bring back tvs
Kicking the non-revenue pilots out of F and letting the paying customers sit in F, could be a good start.
The pilots only sit in the seats that aren’t sold. You are free, encouraged even, to buy those seats.
From Google:
"The new contract gives pilots higher priority than Executive Platinum and Concierge Key passengers.
Pilots are given priority for upgrades on domestic routes, including flights to Alaska and Hawaii.
This has led to frustration among elite flyers, who are considering switching to other airlines."
AA is the only airline in the US that lets top level elites sit in coach while pilots luxuriate in F. Still can't believe AA management agreed...
From Google:
"The new contract gives pilots higher priority than Executive Platinum and Concierge Key passengers.
Pilots are given priority for upgrades on domestic routes, including flights to Alaska and Hawaii.
This has led to frustration among elite flyers, who are considering switching to other airlines."
AA is the only airline in the US that lets top level elites sit in coach while pilots luxuriate in F. Still can't believe AA management agreed to this and that the pilots thought this was good for the airline.
No, you are incorrect. AA was the last US airline to implement this into the pilots contract. United and Delta do it had already done this for a while, but they are better at selling the seats, so you don't see the pilots often.
First and foremost AA needs to define what they think "Premium" consist of. Is it solely Flagship Business and First and FL lounges? Does that include the ACs? Domestic First? Coach?
Pretty apparent that up to now Flagship is about the only "premium" experience with AA. Yes they've opened a few nice ACs but PHX and CLT (CLT one of the 2 biggest hubs) are absolute dumps. Really, less than half the seating has power...
First and foremost AA needs to define what they think "Premium" consist of. Is it solely Flagship Business and First and FL lounges? Does that include the ACs? Domestic First? Coach?
Pretty apparent that up to now Flagship is about the only "premium" experience with AA. Yes they've opened a few nice ACs but PHX and CLT (CLT one of the 2 biggest hubs) are absolute dumps. Really, less than half the seating has power outlets in CLT C and PHX. Does AA management think we're still in the days of traveling with a brief case full of papers?
Domestic first pre departure beverages (and not a tray of warm water and warm OJ) are less than 50% of the time. True, at times catering is late or the plane needs to get off the gate as quick as possible and that's understanding. But the sheer number of times FAs stare off into space during board?
Third place airline + third place bank = third place experience.
Perhaps the BOD should demand more than just their own free travel perk...
I think AA lost its advantage when they bankrupted and bought by US Air. I still felt that AA was a premium airlines, in comparison to DL and UA until 2012, then it just went downhill. They lost the vision and ended up with grumpy employees and no one was happy except the C-suite and maybe board members. Even when they installed 1-2-1 business class seats ahead of many other premium airlines, it couldn't come...
I think AA lost its advantage when they bankrupted and bought by US Air. I still felt that AA was a premium airlines, in comparison to DL and UA until 2012, then it just went downhill. They lost the vision and ended up with grumpy employees and no one was happy except the C-suite and maybe board members. Even when they installed 1-2-1 business class seats ahead of many other premium airlines, it couldn't come back as a premium airline because the service was bad, lounge was mediocre, and customer service on the ground and air gave the feeling of a cheap service. Now they want to be premium? A little late I think because they lost the opportunity. It is an excellent case study for MBA students on how management can destroy a company... Also the board has be held accountable but no, they didn't care...
AA lost its leadership when they tried to do an out of court restructuring after 9/11. UA went into Chapter 11, spent the longest and most costly time in bankruptcy of any US airline. Ever. US did C11 beside UA and the result was that AA's costs were well out of line even before DL and NW filed and exited, to merge shortly after. When AA finally filed for C11 during the Great Recession, DL/NW,...
AA lost its leadership when they tried to do an out of court restructuring after 9/11. UA went into Chapter 11, spent the longest and most costly time in bankruptcy of any US airline. Ever. US did C11 beside UA and the result was that AA's costs were well out of line even before DL and NW filed and exited, to merge shortly after. When AA finally filed for C11 during the Great Recession, DL/NW, UA/CO and WN/Air Tran had already merged or were in the process.
Doug Parker was determined he would not be left out after running US so he jumped into AA's C11 process with the backing of AA labor which left AA with uncompetitive costs yet again.
DL's growth in NYC with the DL-US slot deal sealed AA's fate in NYC which was the first leg of taking the valuable corporate traffic that AA used to carry. During covid, DL finalized its revenue coup of AA corporate traffic by overtaking AA at LAX and putting enough distance between AA and DL at BOS that AA could never recover. UA did the same at ORD.
AA retrenched to the south and is running huge volumes of traffic through CLT which is incapable of supporting it and DFW which can support the level of traffic but is just a much more costly hub to operate from a human cost esp. for baggage handling.
Over 25 years, AA lost being cost competitive, has lost its position in the US' largest corporate markets, and has degraded its service in order to try to compete on price - just as it became clear post covid that strategy won't work even for low cost carriers.
AA has been in strategic schizophrenia for 2 decades while DL largely and UA to a lesser extent have gained because of AA's failures.
AA not only has to deliver a consistently solid product again but regain the share they have lost with high value travelers around the world and, as Ben notes, that is extremely unlikely to happen.
If AA wants an airline to mimic, its executives should try Qatar business class. Now THAT's service!
No. Even all ME3s are doing beautifully within their delicately designed SOP, they have nothing outside. And their ground sucks.
The problem American has with strategy is that its leaders always pat themselves on the back for being great at it, even when the data points and customer feedback says the opposite. Their solution to being a better airline is to take those same (ineffective) leaders and shift them around with new titles and roles. They need to completely replace their entire senior leadership teams with external hires.
The likes of Vasu Raja and Alan Joyce belong in a special level of Hell (along with Taylor Swift).
@John,
Kindly leave Ms. Swift alone and keep her name out of your mouth.
There are plenty of things they can go after that involve customer experience that don't touch hard product. For example, rebooking tools, adding more lenient criteria to avoid misconnects, allowing the customer to speak to a gate agent about standby, how the app works, not using chatbots for a complaint that makes a customer avoid AA dor future bookings when at all possible, stricter quality assurance on Reservations and Aadvantage agents giving accurate answers to...
There are plenty of things they can go after that involve customer experience that don't touch hard product. For example, rebooking tools, adding more lenient criteria to avoid misconnects, allowing the customer to speak to a gate agent about standby, how the app works, not using chatbots for a complaint that makes a customer avoid AA dor future bookings when at all possible, stricter quality assurance on Reservations and Aadvantage agents giving accurate answers to customer questions, etc.
Chatbots are of the devil.
I like several OneWorld carriers (QR & CX), so I tend to avoid AA on international routes for the most part.
lol, same here.
They seem genuinely surprised that customers want good product and good service. Like it’s an industry secret that no one told them about.
After they screwed me over with buying lounge passes by taking my money and then turning me down at every opportunity when I tried to use them I hope they get screwed. Comeuppance, and a down right shady business tactic to boot and I'm sure I'm not the only one that got treated to that experience. I now go out of my way to cost them money every time I fly them. You have to...
After they screwed me over with buying lounge passes by taking my money and then turning me down at every opportunity when I tried to use them I hope they get screwed. Comeuppance, and a down right shady business tactic to boot and I'm sure I'm not the only one that got treated to that experience. I now go out of my way to cost them money every time I fly them. You have to open another bottle of wine that I'm only drinking? Do it. And I'm only drinking one glass to boot!
The service is atrocious, especially in business class. Lazy, old FAs that don't want to get off their ass to do anything. Just going through the motions. So glad I'm spending thousands of dollars for that! When I can get better service sitting in Y on JAL compared to sitting in J or W on AA, there's a problem!!!!!!
No screens, and yes more food to sell on place. And bring back two services on transcon. And allow bags to be checked through on separate AA tickets. Other than that I am generally happy EXP for many years.
The bags checked through is very crucial, I honestly buy United tickets just because of this, the fact that as an executive platinum. I can NOT have my bags checked through with other one world carriers or AA itself on separate tickets is a total downside.
I’ll never get a luxury experience with American Airlines yet the rest of the world is able to deliver this. I’m not looking for a complimentary , mileage , or systemwide upgrade on a long haul flight. I’d be willing to spend a few to several thousand dollars for such an experience. As would retired people that enjoy travel. Mutual funds and portfolios are at all time highs people have money to spend. Americans new business class product will be mediocre at best.
Decent buy-on-board and cheaper WiFi would be a great place to start.
1) The former America West group in the C Suite needs to be removed asap. They have no clue what "Premium" is, starting with the guy at the top.
2) Quality on board does matter. Provide better food in F/J (seems to be in the works).
3) Stop serving wine in F that seems to come from the WalMart clearance aisle.
It felt embarrassing flying back from Rome in Flagship First last year to see 3 passengers sleep the entire way as they knew not to even bother with the soft product. International First Class. You can’t have it both ways. Take away systemwide upgrades , devalue mileage redemptions , and lots of customers will walk away. Develop a luxury product and charge a premium for it.
Curious. How did you know that those paxs purposely slept through in-flight service? Did you wake them up and ask them?
Hyperbole adds no value.
Yes, we must have peer-reviewed thesis papers on all anecdotes ever.
American Airlines' biggest problem is the flight attendants. Or, as they should be called, stewardesses.
Management should use the opportunity to simply start firing stewardesses. Any customer complaint? Out.
There's 1000 applicants for every job in the cabin, and their training could be done in an afternoon.
American Airlines stewardesses: you're the problem.
Seen it and heard it all before. American will never change. It has always been the way it is now since an olive was removed from a salad in 1984. When American runs well, it runs well, but more often than not, it is a bad airline.
Do a bad job, say you want to do a better job, continue doing a bad job. Proven formula.
The moment AA starts putting screens back is the moment I know they're actually serious about having a competitive product. It requires real investment, and it's something that customers immediately notice (and most appreciate).
Anything before that it's just hot air, moving chairs on the Titanic.
Living in DC I have been seriously considering changing my allegiance to UA. Glad management finally woke up.
There's no way they can improve the oasified aircraft without spending tons of money they don't have, and it would take years.
Agreed with others about improving the app, lounges, and soft product, as that's the low hanging fruit and quickest way to demonstrate change.
Somehow, they have to motivate the cabin crew to provide consistent good...
Living in DC I have been seriously considering changing my allegiance to UA. Glad management finally woke up.
There's no way they can improve the oasified aircraft without spending tons of money they don't have, and it would take years.
Agreed with others about improving the app, lounges, and soft product, as that's the low hanging fruit and quickest way to demonstrate change.
Somehow, they have to motivate the cabin crew to provide consistent good service. There are some very good AA crews, but they're the exception.
Can't wait for the new long haul business class.
@DavidW
Motivate crew how? They recently instituted a policy allowing crew not to provide service when there is turbulence and some crew have taken that to mean: I will not provide service and blame it on non-existent turbulence.
A close family member moved to Belize a few years ago. The first time I visited, I bought FC tickets. I was shocked that from Belize to Miami a 2:20 blocked flight, AA did not serve...
@DavidW
Motivate crew how? They recently instituted a policy allowing crew not to provide service when there is turbulence and some crew have taken that to mean: I will not provide service and blame it on non-existent turbulence.
A close family member moved to Belize a few years ago. The first time I visited, I bought FC tickets. I was shocked that from Belize to Miami a 2:20 blocked flight, AA did not serve a meal - not even a hot sandwich. There is no way I will be purchasing FC tickets on this route again. I then compare its lack of service on this route to BA and LH's services where they serve a full meal intra Europe flights blocked at 1:30 hrs. AA has lost the plot. And I for one vote with my pocket.
Motivate by firing at least 10% a year. Use customer feedback forms to create a transparent system. Fire an additional x percent based off of NPS, and be generous in firing - on the spot - FAs who generate serious customer complaints.
That creates natural turnover, FA isn't a job you should hold for a lifetime. Nobody is allowed to say it, but it's just waitressing in the sky bus. They need to be constantly...
Motivate by firing at least 10% a year. Use customer feedback forms to create a transparent system. Fire an additional x percent based off of NPS, and be generous in firing - on the spot - FAs who generate serious customer complaints.
That creates natural turnover, FA isn't a job you should hold for a lifetime. Nobody is allowed to say it, but it's just waitressing in the sky bus. They need to be constantly alert to doing their job or it's out. It would create an incentive to look just a little bit professional, too.
And yes, the restaurant waitress will also show me the exit if there's a fire, calm down.
You are mixing things up. The service that flight attendants and the catering products that are loaded on the flights are two very different elements. It is the airlines decision on what they serve based on mileage ( not block time). That is not the crews fault. The actual flying time from take off to touch down is 1 hour and 40 minutes. Yes, something more substantial could be provided, but do let the airline...
You are mixing things up. The service that flight attendants and the catering products that are loaded on the flights are two very different elements. It is the airlines decision on what they serve based on mileage ( not block time). That is not the crews fault. The actual flying time from take off to touch down is 1 hour and 40 minutes. Yes, something more substantial could be provided, but do let the airline know.
The probability of turbulence is predicted, by other aircraft ahead, and they may or may not affect the aicraft you are flying on, but it is up to the pilot discretion to advise the flight attendants to take their seat. Stop blaming the employees for everything.
1. AA has a great network
2. The seats, pitch and width are the same or better than DL and UA. Hard product
3. The AAdvantage program is leverage to be exploited.
AA has a lot going for it. Personally I could care less about seatback screens, they are on the long haul fleet. AA’s streaming works great. The service soft product is where AA can really improve. I’ve already seen FC...
1. AA has a great network
2. The seats, pitch and width are the same or better than DL and UA. Hard product
3. The AAdvantage program is leverage to be exploited.
AA has a lot going for it. Personally I could care less about seatback screens, they are on the long haul fleet. AA’s streaming works great. The service soft product is where AA can really improve. I’ve already seen FC domestic improvements and Admirals club enhancements. My fear is that AA waited too long to engage with the customers. Another black swan event will come. Everyone UA, DL and AA will retrench, cut service onboard. UA and DL will be particularly hard hit when all the Europe and Asia flyers disappear. AA will have less exposure to international events.
Alaska is a good example of offering a fair quality of customer experience without IFE screens. I don't care about screens either as long as the BYOD IFE works. Alaska excels at soft product such as buy onboard food on domestic flights. The FA's service is also quite consistent.
I hope AA learn and adopt some features from Alaska.
Differentiate? Greater seat width and pitch would top my list. Maybe that would help make the passengers less crabby and civility could return to the cabin. That would be a real differentiation.
I am Lifetime Platinum (2m miles) which got me a luggage tag. Whoopee. So I now fly other airlines when I can.
This is JetBlues entire business model and it sadly has not worked
With AA is seems more structural. How do you incentivize 27,000 flight attendants to give better service? No offense to the few who are decent, but the thousands of surly, rude ones will take a generation to shift.
It's nice to see that they have finally woken up but it's a case of too little, too late
They will never be able to get back lost premium customers (me included) once they get a taste of the product of foreign carriers
It will also be interesting to see how the finance side holds up once the current travel boom cools and the new wage packages kick in
@Chuck,
It's never too late. All everyone need at that company is a come to Jesus talk. And if they refuse to adapt to the new way of doing business, let them know they need to go elsewhere. That applies from BOD on down.
AA has some significant challenges. I would say the basic first issue is about thier operation and reliability of that operation as follows:
-Mechanical delays and other OTP resiliency: I have been on so many broken AA planes (not including the 321T, etc.) that cancel flights. I had three in a single trip and not gettting home for 2 days. They refuse to get customers on other carriers to get them home. This resistance...
AA has some significant challenges. I would say the basic first issue is about thier operation and reliability of that operation as follows:
-Mechanical delays and other OTP resiliency: I have been on so many broken AA planes (not including the 321T, etc.) that cancel flights. I had three in a single trip and not gettting home for 2 days. They refuse to get customers on other carriers to get them home. This resistance to rebook on OAL for MX issues needs to change especially in the short term.
-Get a better website and app....geez a 5th grader can program that. Make it easy to use vouchers...like UA. Get rebooking options in the app and give them choice including on other carriers.
-IFE, bring back full screens.....now.....this is singly the biggest difference in quality.
-Stop full monetizing the upfront cabin....upgrades and elite benefits need to actually be delivered once in a while....
-AA clubs....CLT/PHL....OMG what a disgrace .... renovate and get more space or dehub CLT!
THese are the basics they need to accomplish first.....the morale will get better for FAs if these are basically fixed.
Someone who made a career in Finance is going to lead the Customer Experience organization. Is this a case for optimism? Or will the pretzel bags go from 8 to 7 pretzels?
A person beats their spouse for years. The spouse endures and endures and finally summons the courage to leave. The person says they will change. The spouse doesn't believe it and leaves. The person can only start again with someone else who doesn't know the person's past. Am I wrong?
Unfortunately the abused spouse all too often lands in the same situation with a new partner, unless they do some work on themselves and realise that they’re actually a valuable person (or in this case, a valuable customer) who deserves better, and takes action to make better choices. This isn’t victim blaming - it’s realising our self worth, and not taking crap anymore.
The story is about the abuser (AA) acknowledging the situation they are in. What they've lost. And, what they do next. We can save the discussion about the abused (US) for another time.
Pete is right. You can just leave. Or you chose what you chose.
Same for airlines and FFPs.
American is profitable and is in a better network position than any US airline except Delta and United. I fly their transcons regularly in J on AA and find them equally competitive with its peers. The best thing AA can do is replace its CEO with someone focused on the customer experience.
nonsense.
AA gave up its previous leadership position in NYC and LAX to DL and in ORD to UA.
AA carries half of the traffic out of JFK including on the transcons that DL carries.
DL carries as much domestic revenue as AA while UA trails by $4 billion per year.
DL has potential to grow in the Pacific which it will do but DL has the most balanced network among US airlines.
"and in ORD to UA"
AA has never led UA in anything at ORD.
American was at least at parity with United in overall size and larger across the Atlantic
"DL has potential to grow in the Pacific"
Not that hard for American to "grow in the Pacific" when they only serve Tokyo and Sydney from their non-DFW gateways. They won't stay that way forever.
DL will fail in the Pacific, it's got no useful partners .
clueless you are, parnel.
Delta is the largest foreign airline at HND and KE is the largest Asian airline across the Pacific.
You only HOPE that Delta won't grow in the Pacific - and you WILL be disappointed.
Tim, UA is as big as DL in HND, and had the desire for more flights, as opposed to DL, who didn’t even apply for a HND slot (that they likely would have been granted if they had applied).
UA is much bigger in Tokyo (and Japan as a whole) than DL, with a dominant position thanks to NH. They capture the O&D traffic and their flights are strengthened further with connections.
Plus...
Tim, UA is as big as DL in HND, and had the desire for more flights, as opposed to DL, who didn’t even apply for a HND slot (that they likely would have been granted if they had applied).
UA is much bigger in Tokyo (and Japan as a whole) than DL, with a dominant position thanks to NH. They capture the O&D traffic and their flights are strengthened further with connections.
Plus UA and NH have the largest TPAC JV.
Just say DL and KE are the largest in Korea and leave it at that.
DL is failing hard at HND. MSP-HND is the single worst performing Tokyo flight in the US by load factor in the 60s. And the HNL route is not far off, not to mention the terrible yields it's getting on this route. ANA, JAL, and even HA easily get a massive fare premium over DL on this route. I'm seeing nearly double the fares in premium cabins over DL.
no, you are not seeing what any airline has because you don't have access to the data.
you might be looking at public air fares but that has very little correlation to actual flown fares.
and Delta still has far more HND flights than AA, the subject of this article, on its own metal or UA.
as is typical, everyone that can't accept that DL is the leader in customer service, finance and employee...
no, you are not seeing what any airline has because you don't have access to the data.
you might be looking at public air fares but that has very little correlation to actual flown fares.
and Delta still has far more HND flights than AA, the subject of this article, on its own metal or UA.
as is typical, everyone that can't accept that DL is the leader in customer service, finance and employee rewards tries to find incessant flaws with DL.
If Japan is such a great market, why does AA need JL to fly most of the routes -at the cost of jobs for AA employees?
If UA's international network size is worth so much, then why did UA's profits trail DL's even though DL employees made far more, and UA's employees get half of the profit sharing that DL employees got?
It's really not hard to figure out. all of this chest thumping that the AA and UA fan kids engage in really doesn't amount to a hill of beans for the company, the customers, its shareholders or employees.
The largest foreign airline at HND is China Southern, moron. Why do you spew such relentless stupid nonsense?
feel free to post the routes and aircraft that China Southern uses from HND side by side w/ DL's...
"Perpetually 3rd place AA doesn't want the bronze anymore."
Hello. Reality check everyone. Airline Execs have never been in the Biz of running good airlines. It has always been about lining their and their friends pockets. History check! Lorenzo. Icahn. Yes, Parker. And Isom. They are simply following the same model they learned from their predecessors. Parker worked for Crandall. Sorry Crandall lovers- he was never your friend. Isom cut his teeth under Doug Steenland ala "let the workers dumpster dive". When workers needed...
Hello. Reality check everyone. Airline Execs have never been in the Biz of running good airlines. It has always been about lining their and their friends pockets. History check! Lorenzo. Icahn. Yes, Parker. And Isom. They are simply following the same model they learned from their predecessors. Parker worked for Crandall. Sorry Crandall lovers- he was never your friend. Isom cut his teeth under Doug Steenland ala "let the workers dumpster dive". When workers needed a raise. He is on the AA BOD! Travellers blame unions and front line workers for bad service. No! These choices were made at the highest level of management for profit. PARKER/ISOM were great at running LCC airlines out of bankruptcy. They have no interest or financial gain in operating premium airlines. This was always a race to the bottom. The rest of us are just catching up. Isom would be a great candidate to run the post bankrupt Spirit Airlines. It's right up his alley. Good luck with all that.
Bottom line for me is for American to improve benefits for its elite flyers and not allow systemwide upgrades, upgrade availability and other "benefits" to increasingly become worthless. I cannot remember last time I got upgraded, even with a systemwide!
Next, although it may be tough, American needs to improve its domestic business/first class product and services. No TV screens is a joke, especially in first class and the seats are hard and hardly recline....
Bottom line for me is for American to improve benefits for its elite flyers and not allow systemwide upgrades, upgrade availability and other "benefits" to increasingly become worthless. I cannot remember last time I got upgraded, even with a systemwide!
Next, although it may be tough, American needs to improve its domestic business/first class product and services. No TV screens is a joke, especially in first class and the seats are hard and hardly recline. As to American's international network, business and first class may be slightly behind but are decent and comfortable products for now. Upgrading to the new business class seats sooner rather than later and upping the ante on food would help.
If not, American risks losing lots of long-term loyal customers who are increasingly feeling like elite status and staying with one airline makes less sense.
How many travelers in domestic F are on their laptop or phone? In seat screens for short flights don't add much value.
Heaps of people are watching TV screens whenever I fly delta or United.
The first thing they need to do is overhaul their digital assets. The AA app still kind of feels like AOL from 2002. Just compare it to UA and DL apps and they are night and day. I don’t know how an airline who is focused on customer self-service to reduce costs has allowed such a useless app to last this long.
AA’s website and marketing emails are also pretty lackluster. It really wouldn’t...
The first thing they need to do is overhaul their digital assets. The AA app still kind of feels like AOL from 2002. Just compare it to UA and DL apps and they are night and day. I don’t know how an airline who is focused on customer self-service to reduce costs has allowed such a useless app to last this long.
AA’s website and marketing emails are also pretty lackluster. It really wouldn’t be hard to fix these things and it won’t take billions of dollars like new lounges and TV screens will.
To me, if AA is serious about moving up-market, these digital improvements should be low hanging fruit.
Amen - dealing with AA website / travel certificates / reservations / check in all feel like we are in the 90s.......
The sad part is AA really led the way with AA.com 25 years or so ago…and hasn’t really done much since. The app is sad and basic, but it usually works. I’m a beta tester for the app and it’s just hilarious that each build is to fix bugs. No new functionality or improvements. DL and UA apps are full of features but I find that the DL app to be pretty unreliable.
My wife has tried to apply for their Citi card multiple times with an 800+ credit score and high income and only having 2 credit cards which she's had for years. Maybe they should stop denying people like her if they want more spend on co-brand cards!
Citi controls enrollment/credit approvals, not AA
The card approval process at Citi seems more like strange voodoo than even airline yield management algorithms. Try Amex instead.
There are far, far too many "elite" levels, and far, far too many members of each level. Getting status from credit cards has become a rod for the back of every airline that's done it - the ventures are profitable, but the passengers who actually fly for their points are disadvantaged. The whole concept of frequent flyer programs needs a reimagining so their are fewer tiers, with significantly fewer customers at the top of the...
There are far, far too many "elite" levels, and far, far too many members of each level. Getting status from credit cards has become a rod for the back of every airline that's done it - the ventures are profitable, but the passengers who actually fly for their points are disadvantaged. The whole concept of frequent flyer programs needs a reimagining so their are fewer tiers, with significantly fewer customers at the top of the heap. When everybody is "elite", nobody is.
"but the passengers who actually fly for their points are disadvantaged."
Because they're not anywhere near as valuable to the carriers as the credit card spenders. Look at Delta and United's operational profits, versus their CC revenues. Both barely broken even from flying people, but made off like bandits from CC spending.
So all of the people crying about how "we need fewer elites!" better be careful what they wish for. Because it's not...
"but the passengers who actually fly for their points are disadvantaged."
Because they're not anywhere near as valuable to the carriers as the credit card spenders. Look at Delta and United's operational profits, versus their CC revenues. Both barely broken even from flying people, but made off like bandits from CC spending.
So all of the people crying about how "we need fewer elites!" better be careful what they wish for. Because it's not hard to envision a future where flying doesn't get you elite-anything, and only CC spending does. We're almost there now, with lounges.
If your fliers aren't profitable then you are just running a shitty airline operation. That is the real issue with the mindset that we should reward so-called profitable points activities. Of course selling a mile is going to look great. It has almost no cost associated with it and even if your accountants make you attach a cost to it, you control the costs. In other words if the liability comes too big you can...
If your fliers aren't profitable then you are just running a shitty airline operation. That is the real issue with the mindset that we should reward so-called profitable points activities. Of course selling a mile is going to look great. It has almost no cost associated with it and even if your accountants make you attach a cost to it, you control the costs. In other words if the liability comes too big you can just devalue those points. It's too bad we are unlikely to see any regulation on this front for at least another 4 years too. The notion that all these FF programs are the real profit centers is pure accounting gimmick. If airlines stopped flying or spun off the FF programs (as they have done in the past) they would be almost worthless (see AC/Aeroplan spin off). Airlines need to realize why people fly, why they get addicted to points, etc. -- it's to go places. At the end of the day AA has ignored the flying experience and cut corners on a premium experience while UA and DL have only accelerated in that realm.
Pete is right, again. These days you can get EXP from buying liquor at the gas station. No seriously, you can.
Also, there are people out there spending next to nothing and expect the world. If anyone has followed the BA Flyertalk forum, they'll attest to the fact it's hilarious to see people who spend like 10 grand a year thinking they're entitled to a private terminal/check-in-experience.
No, you're the people we pay to get away from.
I'm guessing a) they aren't winning back business customers too easily, perhaps outside fortress hubs (since they are now used to something better) and b) Spend on cobrand credit card is flat (should be up due to inflation).
You are 100% right, the damage has been done. Some of the damage was very recent (the new standby requirement requiring too much lead time unless you are PPRO or Explat). What has really changed since then?
It is great that AA is realizing that the business model that Doug Parker and co. imposed on the company for the past decades has been broken.
There has been a wholesale rearrangement of the airline industry and those who were last are first and via versa. Southwest was the most profitable airline in the world - until Delta restructured everything about the way DL had operated for years.
let's be clear about a...
It is great that AA is realizing that the business model that Doug Parker and co. imposed on the company for the past decades has been broken.
There has been a wholesale rearrangement of the airline industry and those who were last are first and via versa. Southwest was the most profitable airline in the world - until Delta restructured everything about the way DL had operated for years.
let's be clear about a couple things, though. AA's JVs are not the largest.... AA operates a far smaller number of routes under their TPAC JV than DL or UA do with their partners. The DL/KE JV is now the largest TPAC JV. TATL JVs are being rearranged but DL has long been part of the largest TATL JV and that is still true.
UA got lucky with its massive international route system because so many low cost carriers and state-run legacy carriers failed during the pandemic. Some people, like me, noted years ago that international travel would be stronger for strong legacy carriers as a result long before UA decided to cash in on its huge international route system.
And UA's profitability is coming off the back of tens of thousands of its employees; UA is the only big 4 carrier that has yet to settle with its FAs. WN noted last quarter that DL and WN are the only big 4 carriers that are paying industry leading salaries across the board.
DL employees received $1.4 billion in profit sharing today; UA paid less than half of that. Tack on a billion dollars more in costs and UA's profits will be much further than they were in 2024.
AA and WN's profit sharing was a fraction of DL's.
UA is realizing that DL's moves to deliver a higher quality product is what gets high revenue.
Having well-paid employees is a formula that only DL and WN have figured out among the big 4 to get high customer satisfaction.
WN just doesn't have the product that can support the high costs; AA, DL and UA have the potential.
DL figured that part out about 15 years ago - after the NW merger - and has spent money to build that product.
AA has been cutting so has tens of billions of dollars it has to spend.
UA is spending like a drunk sailor but still has the world's oldest fleet and trails DL's fuel efficiency by 6%.
Good that AA realizes what it needs to do and is saying the tough words out loud.
Oh, and Happy Valentine's Day.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Your only friend in the world
Stares back in the mirror at you
FYI there's a lot of inaccuracy in your claims - as JonNYC posted and as UA has posted, they have the largest TransAtlantic and TransPacific JVs and UA is the fastest growing airline in LATAM. IDK how you even can claim DL-KE is the largest TransPacific JV
yes, we know that UA succeeds that everything - except profits and pay for their people.
AF/DL/KL/VS is simply a larger JV than AC/UA plus the LH Group
and DL/LA is larger than UA
and, you would do well to read actual data. DL is the fastest growing of the big 4 based on additional capacity in the 1st quarter.
Airlines for America says so.
and DL will likely re-overtake UA as the...
yes, we know that UA succeeds that everything - except profits and pay for their people.
AF/DL/KL/VS is simply a larger JV than AC/UA plus the LH Group
and DL/LA is larger than UA
and, you would do well to read actual data. DL is the fastest growing of the big 4 based on additional capacity in the 1st quarter.
Airlines for America says so.
and DL will likely re-overtake UA as the largest airline across the Atlantic this year based on the amount of capacity DL is adding vs. other carriers.
btw, tell us again how UA's size has given its customers a better experience than DL or made its employees better paid.
Neither have happened.
The Wall Street Journal has already released its "best of 2024" airline edition based on the same data that will eventually come from everyone else.
DL is in first place followed by WN.
DL employees shared the biggest profit sharing in the world today. Half of employees are still under contracts that keep their pay - and profit sharing well below DL levels.
Brag about size as if it means anything.
It doesn't.
and even if it did, UA's size claims amount to just spewing more pollution into the atmosphere than anyone else.
https://x.com/xJonNYC/status/1890106842870944156
Tim, did you not see this?
You were the one who said the DL JVs were the largest. When it was pointed out that the UA/NH JV is the largest across the Pacific and that the UA/LH/AC JV is the largest in the world, you changed the subject and didn’t admit you were wrong.
You lose credibility when you make a false claim, your points are refuted, and then you don’t acknowledge you...
https://x.com/xJonNYC/status/1890106842870944156
Tim, did you not see this?
You were the one who said the DL JVs were the largest. When it was pointed out that the UA/NH JV is the largest across the Pacific and that the UA/LH/AC JV is the largest in the world, you changed the subject and didn’t admit you were wrong.
You lose credibility when you make a false claim, your points are refuted, and then you don’t acknowledge you were wrong.
You start talking about what will happen in the future, even though you talk about how the future doesn’t matter when someone points out the huge growth UA has in its future, whether it’s the hundreds of new planes (including widebodies), the billions more they’ll get in a new credit card agreement with Chase, or anything else.
“I was wrong”. See how easy that is to type?
And now I’ll let you have the last word and not get sucked into the “argument loop” with you, as Brett Snyder himself termed frustrating discussions with you.
Mark
No one doubts that United has the largest international network among the big 3
That doesn’t mean they have the largest JVs.
And the question you won’t answer is why UA can’t translate their size into leading revenue and profits and leading pay and profit sharing for employees
What’s more likely, that UA is lying or that you have incorrect information? The UA slides clearly state they have the biggest JV’s. Where are you getting your information? Why would UA put out something incorrect when it’s so easily disproven?
In the fourth quarter, UA did have more passenger revenue than DL and their profits were on par with DL’s, all while having to compete more than DL and without the extra credit card...
What’s more likely, that UA is lying or that you have incorrect information? The UA slides clearly state they have the biggest JV’s. Where are you getting your information? Why would UA put out something incorrect when it’s so easily disproven?
In the fourth quarter, UA did have more passenger revenue than DL and their profits were on par with DL’s, all while having to compete more than DL and without the extra credit card revenue that DL has. The revenue for the year was less since it was only by the fourth quarter that UA had trended higher.
Delta has said the same thing about its JVs.
And you still can’t answer the question as to why united can’t turn its large larger network into higher profits.
You do realize that united has been in business for almost as long as Delta and certainly as long as credit card co brand arrangements have been around?
so don’t give me some lame excuse about why Delta has an advantage that United...
Delta has said the same thing about its JVs.
And you still can’t answer the question as to why united can’t turn its large larger network into higher profits.
You do realize that united has been in business for almost as long as Delta and certainly as long as credit card co brand arrangements have been around?
so don’t give me some lame excuse about why Delta has an advantage that United couldn’t have had.
Delta has consistently figured out what it takes to be at the top of the industry and the best that United can do is copy the leader’s strategies.
United tried to copy Delta‘s refinery strategy and wasn’t able to pull it off.
The only thing that United has consistently done more than Delta is fly international routes, but it has come at the expense of serving the domestic market, which is what credit card companies need to see in order to provide huge contracts. United has simply not understood what it takes to be at the top of the industry
And since this article is about American, they have understood even less than Delta did, which is why Delta has consistently taken revenue that American used to carry
Where has DL said the same about their JVs? I have not seen that anywhere. UA’s data, as shown in the slides, is from 2024 schedules. It now falls squarely on you to show the other data. UA put out clearly verifiable information. Why would they lie?
Again, show us otherwise.
You were the one that put out incorrect information. When this was pointed out to you, you changed the topic to other metrics....
Where has DL said the same about their JVs? I have not seen that anywhere. UA’s data, as shown in the slides, is from 2024 schedules. It now falls squarely on you to show the other data. UA put out clearly verifiable information. Why would they lie?
Again, show us otherwise.
You were the one that put out incorrect information. When this was pointed out to you, you changed the topic to other metrics.
Momentum is clearly on UA’s side. Look at the difference in profits. UA is now almost even.
But, as pointed out, you were the one who brought up JV size. Are you going to admit you were wrong or show the data that disproves what UA put out?
Don’t change the subject again. Answer the question.
You were banned from the community and from the industry. Could you please explain why ? And furthermore, do you think anyone takes you seriously after you were banned from everything aviation related ? Why should we have to read 10 paragraphs of nonsense from someone who thinks that coming up with 1000+ words of delusional lies qualifies as “arguing” ?
Since this site is clearly aviation related, you clearly can’t tell the truth. To absolutely no surprise
So you’re admitting that this is the only one where you still have not been banned from. And still you haven’t figured it out that you’re the only one who takes you seriously.
Lol , DL business class seats are NOT competitive more are the 767 planes.
Do you actually believe what you type.
It really is not complex Tim - literally just admit when you're wrong which you very obviously are. Delta has a much stronger and bigger domestic network than United (who is #4) and a far more lucrative credit card deal with Amex vs United's with Chase.
That more than explains the gap between Delta and United - not the Pacific, or Atlantic, or LATAM. United is bigger than Delta both in the Pacific and Atlantic...
It really is not complex Tim - literally just admit when you're wrong which you very obviously are. Delta has a much stronger and bigger domestic network than United (who is #4) and a far more lucrative credit card deal with Amex vs United's with Chase.
That more than explains the gap between Delta and United - not the Pacific, or Atlantic, or LATAM. United is bigger than Delta both in the Pacific and Atlantic and meaningfully larger than it overall internationally. No one worth any of their salt will claim that Delta has the biggest JV across the Atlantic and the fact that you would even mention the KE-DL JV as the largest across the Pacific is absolutely ludicrous. Like do you even read what you type or are you just going to disregard any data?
do you even have a clue what is in and not in each of the carrier's JVs?
DL's HND presence IS in the DL-KE JV. UA's presence in HKG is NOT in their JV. no China flights are in any US carrier JVs.
KE is the largest Asian carrier and their entire TPAC system is in the DL JV.
and, again, whine all you want about domestic and credit card advantages that Delta has....
do you even have a clue what is in and not in each of the carrier's JVs?
DL's HND presence IS in the DL-KE JV. UA's presence in HKG is NOT in their JV. no China flights are in any US carrier JVs.
KE is the largest Asian carrier and their entire TPAC system is in the DL JV.
and, again, whine all you want about domestic and credit card advantages that Delta has. United wasn't smart enough to figure out that those things mattered until Chase pushed United's request for a bigger deal right back across the table and told them all of their international flights are meaningless w/o a large credit card deal.
United gets $4 billion LESS than AA and DL in domestic revenue. what has United been doing for the last 90 years besides trying to impress everyone with their round their world flights and their service to Mongolia?
and you STILL can't grasp that United's huge runup in profits wouldn't have happened if their FAs and mechanics et al were paid at the same rates as DL employees. UA's profit sharing was HALF of DL's.
Lop $1B in profits off UA"s 2024 earnings - which still trailed DL's despite a half billion impact from CrowdStrike - and you will see how well UA compares to DL IN REAL LIFE.
Again, you’ve done nothing to disprove what UA themselves put out regarding the TPAC JV. Yes, the DL-KE JV is large, but the UA-NH is larger. And aren’t you the one who says UA’s size isn’t a big deal? Why are you trying to make DL seem bigger than they are?
UA’s significant domestic growth has them quickly catching up in domestic revenue. As they continue to take delivery of hundreds of new planes, as...
Again, you’ve done nothing to disprove what UA themselves put out regarding the TPAC JV. Yes, the DL-KE JV is large, but the UA-NH is larger. And aren’t you the one who says UA’s size isn’t a big deal? Why are you trying to make DL seem bigger than they are?
UA’s significant domestic growth has them quickly catching up in domestic revenue. As they continue to take delivery of hundreds of new planes, as part of one of aviation’s largest aircraft orders, all made at very favorable rates thanks to the timing during the depths of the pandemic.
DL has been saving money by underinvesting in IT, which is what led them to be susceptible to the CrowdStrike meltdown, when they took much longer to recover than anyone else. Additionally, UA also took a hit due to the MAX 9 grounding.
DL has four fortress hubs without any significant competition in the metro areas of their hubs. UA does not have that kind of dominance in the metro areas of any of their hubs.
UA faces much more completion, has hubs in higher cost airports with more congestion, and doesn’t yet have the huge tailwind of billions more in credit card revenue they will receive with a new Chase credit card agreement….
and yet their profits in the most recent quarter are on par with DL’s. This is much more impressive than DL’s similar profits, made in part from fortress hub pricing with less competition.
You talk frequently about UA crowing about their performance and turnaround without giving credit to them, all while DL is much more widely perceived as the “arrogant” carrier. Just refresh your memory by reading the recent analysis of DL’s splashy announcement about “nothing” to see how they cheerlead for themselves, even when nothing of substance is announced
https://crankyflier.com/2025/01/09/delta-makes-a-spectacular-amazing-astounding-announcement-about-nothing/
So many words and yet almost no substance. UA and DL have about the same overall passenger revenues, yet you yourself mention, DL has over $4B more in domestic revenue than UA. In addition, DL’s credit card deal is ~2x that of United and accounts for almost a $500M difference.
I don’t care about the reason how or why - I just care about the facts and your inability to admit you’ve been proclaiming false...
So many words and yet almost no substance. UA and DL have about the same overall passenger revenues, yet you yourself mention, DL has over $4B more in domestic revenue than UA. In addition, DL’s credit card deal is ~2x that of United and accounts for almost a $500M difference.
I don’t care about the reason how or why - I just care about the facts and your inability to admit you’ve been proclaiming false statements knowingly about JVs. Its common sense that if overall revenues are equal and DL beats UA in 2 categories by $4.5B when overall rev is ~$50B, that UA is much bigger in the other categories. Lo and behold, that is true.
I know very well what is in the JV and you’re still full of it - DL + KE is not a bigger JV than ANA lmao nor is that true over the Pacific. Stick to facts and not your alternate reality and dreams - DL is not passing UA anytime soon internationally too btw as you very well know.
Can I get the number of your dealer? If you think the SkyTeam TATL joint venture (AF, KL, DL, VS, and soon SK) is larger than UA’s A++ (AC, UA, LH, LX, SN, OS, EW and soon to be AZ) you have to be high as a freaking kite.
Better ask the number of this therapist. The guy has some serious mental issues.
Jeremy,
first, you simply reinforce exactly what it is common for UA fankids.... you want to continually redraw the lines because you can't accept that UA really isn't #1 as you have all been brainwashed into thinking.
If UA is too big in the Atlantic, Pacific and Latin America, why is it so difficult for you to explain why UA is not #1 in the world in revenues and profits?
arguing about the...
Jeremy,
first, you simply reinforce exactly what it is common for UA fankids.... you want to continually redraw the lines because you can't accept that UA really isn't #1 as you have all been brainwashed into thinking.
If UA is too big in the Atlantic, Pacific and Latin America, why is it so difficult for you to explain why UA is not #1 in the world in revenues and profits?
arguing about the size of JVs or even profits in any global region are secondary to why UA can't put it all together to land at the top.
Of course, DL delivers more total revenue and the question is why UA couldn't see five decades ago when the airline industry was deregulated or even almost a decade ago when Kirby took over that domestic size matters THE MOST - to winning corporate contracts and big credit card deals.
Why you can't tell us not only what UA has been doing for 5 decades of deregulation that they not only missed the boat in what matters but still don't?
You do realize that data shows that DL is growing faster than UA or AA or WN in the first quarter of 2025?
You do realize that DL is adding more capacity across the Atlantic than either AA or UA in 2025?
You do realize that UA's return to TLV will be with the same one flight/day that DL will operate, meaning UA isn't going to the largest carrier - or will be by a pretty small percentages?
And DL IS expected to deliver earnings that are larger than UA AND deliver leading profit sharing again.
UA's own investor guidance says they expect to settle at least one CBA which will send their costs up, their earnings down, and send a half billion dollars in retro pay out the door.
Why can't you get off your "we are the biggest in every dimension" mantra long enough to explain why UA still can't put it all together on ALL the bottom lines including customer service, financial metrics and employee rewards?
the only people that have mental issues are those that are incapable of intelligently discussing the issues.
You, jeremy, are capable of throwing facts - you just presort and select whatever you want to avoid dealing with the hard reality that UA just keeps coming up short despite your incessant inability to say "yeah, we're #2."
All of this hot air that you and others love to spew
14 paragraphs of nonsense from Tim all desperately trying to change the topic vs just admitting he was factually WRONG and moving on.
Get a life, loser.
no, max,
all I want people to do is admit that it is they that incessantly focus on the things that don't matter.
If UA is the largest in so many parts of its network, why do they not deliver the most TOTAL revenue?
If it is actually credit card revenue that matters, then why didn't UA realize that such a massive international route system doesn't deliver the domestic presence that credit card companies...
no, max,
all I want people to do is admit that it is they that incessantly focus on the things that don't matter.
If UA is the largest in so many parts of its network, why do they not deliver the most TOTAL revenue?
If it is actually credit card revenue that matters, then why didn't UA realize that such a massive international route system doesn't deliver the domestic presence that credit card companies want?
And when some people love to tout that UA is taking delivery of the most new aircraft and was the first to get to 1000 mainline aircraft, how is that DL is growing in the first quarter about 20% faster than UA?
and when people talk about how great UA's runup in financials have been, why is there so much silence when I accurately point out that UA's labor costs will need to go up by about $1 billion/year including profit sharing in order to have similar labor costs?
I am more than happy to acknowledge when I am wrong but you and others fixate on details and consistently cannot accept that UA has yet to put it all together to become #1 in much of any metric other than ASMs and fuel burn.
I totally get the pride everyone has in their home team but when the incessant "rah rah" hides the real facts of what matters, then clearly some people are spending way too much time counting tiny stuff.
no, tim. You're trying to change the topic again because you were factually wrong and can't admit when you're wrong. So instead, you do what you always do and act/pretend like there was a parallel conversation ongoing to obscure your own ignornace and flat out lies.
Wow ! Did you actually make it through all the 14 paragraphs ? I’ve always thought that only Tim himself was capable of reading through all the stuff his sick mind produces. Respect brother !!
eduardo,
you seriously have nothing else to contribute other than to count paragraphs?
max,
we realize you want to just argue and try to prove me wrong but I specifically said that DL has opposing claims to what UA says about its JVs.
and when people say that China Southern is larger than DL at HND and then doesn't back it up w/ even schedules, it is not me that is proven...
eduardo,
you seriously have nothing else to contribute other than to count paragraphs?
max,
we realize you want to just argue and try to prove me wrong but I specifically said that DL has opposing claims to what UA says about its JVs.
and when people say that China Southern is larger than DL at HND and then doesn't back it up w/ even schedules, it is not me that is proven wrong about the basic facts.
And the point, which you and no one else can admit is that UA has been touting its size in this category and that category but they can't bring it all together on the bottom line of top tier customer service, financials, or employee compensation.
Scott Kirby said 7 years ago that UA would match DL's profitability and 2024 SHOULD HAVE been the year to do it - but UA still trailed DL even with the CrowdStrike event at DL and while UA is paying its employees $1B+ less including via profit sharing.
UA was fast to tout reaching 1000 mainline aircraft and yet DL took delivery of just 38 new aircraft in 2024, retired 21 and is still growing faster than UA in the first quarter of 2025.
Why is it so hard for you and others to admit that UA is NOT really closing the gap and the top dog really is not at risk of losing its position of leadership?
saying that has nothing to do with who anyone cheers for but solid, analysis based reality of what is going on in the industry.
When people - including you - resort to personal attacks because you can't or won't answer basic questions which I raise, then it is not me that is wrong.
Why do you keep repeating the same questions when I've literally answered it, and you keep changing the topic ignoring your blatantly false statements.
2024 FY passenger revenue:
DL: ~$50.9B (~$35.1B domestic)
UA: ~$51.9B (~$30.8B domestic)
2024 Net Income (inclusive of refinery and miscellaneous costs):
DL: ~$3.46B
UA: ~$3.15B
We know Delta makes almost 2x what United does in its Amex deal (likely ~$1-1.5B in revenue) than United does with Chase....
Why do you keep repeating the same questions when I've literally answered it, and you keep changing the topic ignoring your blatantly false statements.
2024 FY passenger revenue:
DL: ~$50.9B (~$35.1B domestic)
UA: ~$51.9B (~$30.8B domestic)
2024 Net Income (inclusive of refinery and miscellaneous costs):
DL: ~$3.46B
UA: ~$3.15B
We know Delta makes almost 2x what United does in its Amex deal (likely ~$1-1.5B in revenue) than United does with Chase. Delta also has revenue from the refinery, albeit sure United's #'s are skewed by ~$1B. But even accounting for that, the math simply does not math. Why? It's basic data:
FY24 PRASM:
DL: 17.65
UA: 16.66
FY24: CASM:
DL: 19.30
UA: 16.70
UA is the closest to any US airline in actually making revenue flying passengers excluding all other revenue streams. So no, DL is not more profitable than UA across the Pacific and Atlantic or bigger when it literally loses far more money per ASM than United - UNLESS it is losing a ton of money in LATAM and domestically to offset that. It's basic financial common sense - DL outperforms UA b/c of its other revenue streams and loyalty program it has worked to develop which kudos to them. The rest of your conjecture is absolutely false, misleading, and useless.
I give you credit for your persistence, jeremy.
Now add $1 billion in labor costs to UAL's income statement and let us know how the math works.
It has been decades since the only thing that matters to an airline's bottom line is passenger revenue. again, why can't you admit that UA missed the ball on what matters while DL got it right and it is UA's job to fix what it missed - even...
I give you credit for your persistence, jeremy.
Now add $1 billion in labor costs to UAL's income statement and let us know how the math works.
It has been decades since the only thing that matters to an airline's bottom line is passenger revenue. again, why can't you admit that UA missed the ball on what matters while DL got it right and it is UA's job to fix what it missed - even while DL does not appear at all ready to concede its leadership.
again, I am more than happy to acknowledge what UA has accomplished but you and others are incapable of admitting what UA DOES NOT do well.
I get sick of incessantly hearing you and others telling us how great UA is but incapable of admitting what UA does not do well or why it can't put all of the pieces that you are happy to tell us where UA is first into a first place finish on multiple metrics.
put down the pom poms long enough to admit that UA is still a work in progress but is competing against companies that know what they are doing and have yet to concede anything that matters to UA.
as for regional profitability, using data which UA and DL have both reported to the DOT, UA is more profitable in absolute dollars over the Pacific but less profitable over the Atlantic.
If you don't like the DOT's numbers, tell us what they should be but the totals have to come up the same so whatever you do to increase UA's Atlantic profits has to come from someplace else.
Since DL flies about half of the capacity that UA has across the Pacific, UA gets about 60% of the profits DL does per seat mile.
But rather than worry about details, just paint the big picture and tell us why UA can't put all of the pieces together in a winning package including by having lower labor costs for tens of thousands of employees.
@jeremy you sure are persistent, but there is no point in trying to prove Tim that he is delusional. He is deeply in love with his DL fantasy and he truly believes the parallel reality that he created in his sick delusional mind. He will reply with 10+ paragraphs of nonsense that his mind produces, and he truly believes that, despite being banned from the community and the industry, people are interested in his sick parallel reality. It’s a dead end.
Just debate the facts. Alll of them. Love is irrational but facts are not which is why you always lose
The typical AA employees, ground and air, often seem unhappy and surly. They often treat customers poorly. Changing that culture will likely be quite difficult. The other domestic carriers are not great in that department, but in my experience they are clearly significantly better than AA in the treatment they typically provide to customers.
I am a high income frequent traveler. I search for a good schedule, a premium product, and a good price, balancing...
The typical AA employees, ground and air, often seem unhappy and surly. They often treat customers poorly. Changing that culture will likely be quite difficult. The other domestic carriers are not great in that department, but in my experience they are clearly significantly better than AA in the treatment they typically provide to customers.
I am a high income frequent traveler. I search for a good schedule, a premium product, and a good price, balancing all of those things before booking. I enjoy Qantas, JAL, ANA, and Singapore in business class, and other quality international airlines much more than the domestic airlines.
I do like United lie flat on domestic flights, when available, or JetBlue Mint. AA has been my absolute last choice and I rarely fly them. It would take a major change in their reputation before I would choose them over first on United, Delta, or JetBlue Mint. When there are two of us, we sometimes book three seats on JetBlue as they have good wifi, snacks, and good legroom. Even JetBlue with three good economy seats booked for two of us will generally rank as a preferred choice over two AA seats in first.
Changing the culture requires managers to fully embrace the changes, then bring their staff along for the ride. Employees who refuse to join in can be invited to leave the business, or managed out. Testicular fortitude is required from the top down. If you're not meeting the new standards, you'll be out, union or no union.
It requires firing a large number of lazy workers. Take on the unions and go *hard*.
There are many, many American FAs who really need an attitude adjustment. Waitressing at Applebee's is magnitudes of order harder than being overweight on an AA plane in a discombobulated uniform.
Myself and two other EPs were seated in first today (upgraded) and the gate agent threatened to call the police on us if we didn't move back to coach.
My new seat was of course a middle seat. We all refused, hence the police threat. We did offer to move for a $1k voucher. He disappeared for a while, and then the three people in paid first class had to go sit in the...
Myself and two other EPs were seated in first today (upgraded) and the gate agent threatened to call the police on us if we didn't move back to coach.
My new seat was of course a middle seat. We all refused, hence the police threat. We did offer to move for a $1k voucher. He disappeared for a while, and then the three people in paid first class had to go sit in the back. Not sure if they got vouchers or refunds.
Clearly they need a complete reengineering of their business processes. Would I become loyal to a different airline because of this? Absolutely not. I'll take usable miles over a crappy 6" TV with constant interruptions. Given the higher earning rate alone, I'm surprised Lucky has walked away from EP.
Do you really think your “status” should allow you to bump a paid first class passenger back to economy?
This is seriously the most delusional story ever.
The fact that AA did this to paid first class customers is pretty disgusting.
Status leads to so much entitlement it's crazy. OP should've either sat in economy, which is what they purchased or the police should've taken them off.
If the "Paid First Class" passenger shows up after the upgrade has been granted, absolutely. It becomes a case of overbooking in F and there are procedures for this.
It’s pretty remarkable how the Amex/Delta partnership, and particularly widespread access to airline lounges, has clearly changed the industry. When even average passengers get a taste of an airline lounge with drinks and such, people start to expect different stuff out of air travel.
I am a Delta flyer, but for a year or two I switched to American, really because of the A321T. The planes were new, the business class and first class...
It’s pretty remarkable how the Amex/Delta partnership, and particularly widespread access to airline lounges, has clearly changed the industry. When even average passengers get a taste of an airline lounge with drinks and such, people start to expect different stuff out of air travel.
I am a Delta flyer, but for a year or two I switched to American, really because of the A321T. The planes were new, the business class and first class cabins felt exclusive. As you sat in your business class seat, other customers marveled at your seat as they walked by (I am guessing many of these customers had never seen a lie flat seat before). You had decent lounge access at JFK, LAX and SFO. I saw celebrities in first class. It seemed nice. But the rest of the network didn’t match up in terms of quality and experience. In particular, Admirals Clubs were sad. And the scheduling became weaker out of JFK. So I went back to Delta. The first thing AA could do is to really do something special with its JFK Admirals Club and try to win back NYC customers organically. The LGA club is pretty good, so they have it in them if they just spend the money
The recent comments I've been reading lately seem to be so focused on seat back TVs, gourmet food, and seat pitch that the fact that an airplane recently crashed into the Potomac River has been glossed over as being totally and utterly meaningless.
What do you want them to say? That was mostly an ATC-related incident, not a question of operations or protocol (e.g. the DC-10 flight 191 crash). So what relevance does it have to them improving themselves?
Perhaps the idea is that at some point, if accidents and incidents increase, some people might start to think about the safety of the airline they are flying on.
If all of the airlines read the book, Unreasonable Hospitality, we would all be in a better place.
Whilst JAL remains a reliable, premium carrier, AA's UK partner has been failing it's customers & downgrading it's services for a decade... ONly their inherited slot dominance has maintained their load factors...
Basically, AA have been allowed to slip so badly in part because they're actually ahead of their "Joint Business Venture" aka TATL cabal in delivering what they market. Let's hope they're more realistic and honest about "investment in customer" rather than the...
Whilst JAL remains a reliable, premium carrier, AA's UK partner has been failing it's customers & downgrading it's services for a decade... ONly their inherited slot dominance has maintained their load factors...
Basically, AA have been allowed to slip so badly in part because they're actually ahead of their "Joint Business Venture" aka TATL cabal in delivering what they market. Let's hope they're more realistic and honest about "investment in customer" rather than the BA spin of *essential* fleet replacement and upgrades and catch up on over a decade's failure to adequately maintain / renew IT systems as genuine investment rather than essential and normal maintenance and replacement.
Not for nothing, I use to work at AA in finance and Heather was a MD there with a huge focus on cost cutting (came from American West) and is best friends with the current CFO (May). Zero background in customer service, just happens to be best friends with finance.
Now and forever, AA is a shitty airline. Their customer service is abysmal, speaking from personal experience, and there is zero cohesion. Seeing this article makes me roll my eyes.
Also, should one take those words - meant to save Execs' jobs and comp packages - at their face value at all? Nothing inspires as much as LUS managers being promoted to lead the "Customer Experience" focus.
Unless you are a Tucson-based CK, it hardly provides any assurance.
You should fix the freudian slip of a typo - it should be "most" loyal customers (as in the memo) not "lost" loyal customers (as in the post).
:-)
Maybe it is accurate both ways, since the average experience is better on Delta and (more and more), United.
AA is currently the LCC of the majors.
Oh, I think AA has plenty of “lost” loyal customers. Winning them back will not be easy or quick.
AA is going to need to spend a lot of money if they need to become more "premium", and I just don't think they have it right now, as they are trying to pay down their debt. There are just so many things they need to work on right now, including but not limited to:
- a lot of Admirals Clubs need serious renovations (in particularly, the majority of the ex-US ones)
-...
AA is going to need to spend a lot of money if they need to become more "premium", and I just don't think they have it right now, as they are trying to pay down their debt. There are just so many things they need to work on right now, including but not limited to:
- a lot of Admirals Clubs need serious renovations (in particularly, the majority of the ex-US ones)
- they need to fix the DFW baggage handling system, which contributes to AA being among last in the US for mishandled baggage
- they need to throw money at getting more VDBs; there is no reason they should be among the last in the US for IDBs
- they need to do something with the domestic Y hard and soft products (IFE, real BOB)
Dog bites man.
Film at 11.
Is the "flyers only care about ticket prices nothing else matters" crowd ready to admit how wrong they were about everything?
First, you'd have to show us where anyone's actually ever said that.
Ticket price is, for the overwhelming majority of fliers, first and foremost. That's a quantifiable fact. But it's not the only thing. Tell us who of any significance has ever even said such a thing.
That certainly seems to be what Carsten Spohr at Lufthansa believes.
It's the only way I can square cuts to quality with "based on customer feedback".
AA doesnt believe that. Their JFK premium lounges can compete with DAL or UA. For economy paxs, it is cost that matters