Should foreign airlines operating to the United States be banned from using Russian airspace? That’s exactly what US airlines are currently lobbying for. Is this a reasonable request, or does it cross the line?
In this post:
US considers Russian airspace ban for foreign airlines
When Russia invaded Ukraine, dozens of countries closed their airspace to Russian airlines. Russia made these bans reciprocal, restricting many foreign airlines from using Russian airspace. This means that US airlines can’t use Russian airspace. This presents a major challenge for flights to China, India, etc., which now largely require significant detours.
The ban on Russian airspace doesn’t apply to all flights to and from the United States, but rather applies to flights operated by US airlines, as well as flights operated by foreign airlines that US airlines codeshare on. Airlines from China, India, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, etc., can all fly to the United States via Russian airspace.
US airlines are now lobbying to get these airlines banned from Russian airspace, requiring that they take the same routes that US airlines do. The logic is that this puts US airlines at an unfair disadvantage, both in terms of costs and passenger demand.
For example, Air India can operate a flight from Delhi to New York a couple of hours faster than American and United can, while Air India can operate a flight from Bangalore to San Francisco, while United can’t, due to the distance a plane would have to fly while avoiding Russian airspace.
In a bipartisan letter sent to the Biden administration in late February, Senator Robert Menendez (a Democrat) and Senator James Risch (a Republican) urged the government to ensure that no commercial airlines overfly a Russian territory when arriving or departing from a US airport. As you’d expect, this is being supported by US airlines through their Airlines for America lobbying group. Airlines for America estimates that this is causing US airlines to lose $2 billion in market share annually.
The justification for this seems to be three-fold (to be clear, I’m not necessarily agreeing with this, but am just sharing the claim):
- It’s dangerous for Americans to be flying over Russian airspace
- It could allow US airlines to be more competitive
- It could further cut off funding for the Russian government
The White House is now allegedly considering imposing such a restriction, but nothing has been finalized yet.
Should the US restrict foreign airlines in this way?
Look, I’m absolutely no fan of Russia, and am supportive of the US banning Russian airlines from its airspace (and the predictable reciprocal action that was taken by Russia). But essentially dictating how foreign airlines have to fly to the US seems a bit excessive, if you ask me.
I don’t even think the logic adds up, since it’s all over the place. Is this about safety, is this about being able to compete, or is it about punishing Russia?
On the safety front, the following is argued in the letter:
“The risk to Americans flying over Russian airspace is real, as demonstrated by Russian-backed separatists that shot down a Malaysian Airlines flight, killing all 298 passengers on board, or the government of Belarus, using as a pretense a false-bomb alert, ordered a Ryanair flight over its territory to land so that it could seize and detain a particular passenger.”
That’s totally fair, but if this was such a serious concern, then why didn’t the US maintain a Russian airspace ban for US airlines following those incidents?
When it comes to being able to compete, isn’t that also a convenient argument for US airlines to make? US airlines have a history of complaining how they can’t compete with foreign airlines in self-serving ways. I mean, isn’t it a little unfair that US airlines received tens of billions of dollars of taxpayer support during the pandemic, when airlines in some countries didn’t receive nearly as much support? If another airline (like EL AL) doesn’t have access to certain airspace, should US airlines operate more circuitous routings, to level the playing field (fortunately this is less of an issue now)?
Then when it comes to the concept of punishing Russia, this hardly seems like the biggest infringement from a foreign country? I mean, China is allegedly sending weapons and armor to Russia, so I think the ATC fees that China is paying Russia hardly compares to that.
Of course all of this also ignores the environmental impact of these very long routes. US airlines constantly talk about their climate commitments, but now want foreign airlines to add a couple of hours of flying time to some routes, just so that they don’t have an advantage.
Bottom line
US airlines are campaigning to have foreign airlines banned from using Russian airspace when flying to and from the United States. Currently airlines like Air China, Air India, Emirates, etc., have quite a competitive advantage when it comes to being able to operate routes more efficiently.
The logic for this proposed ban seems to be all over the place. It’s about security, but it’s also about this being unfair to US airlines. Personally I think this ban goes a bit far, but that’s just me…
What do you think — should the US ban foreign airlines from using Russian airspace while flying to & from the US?
Humans have become so stupid and illogical. The problem stems from a ban of Russian carriers in US and EU nations that support Ukraine. Russia reciprocated and the ban backfired as simple as that. Lift the damn ban and when Russia reciprocates everything is solved. How hard is that?
The impacted airlines could reroute or put a technical halt for refuel if necessary. It's as simple as that. This is nothing having come out of pandemic. Use Pacific route frequently eastward because of pacific windstreams (especially near Japan)!
Qatar/Turkish should not have problem on most routes.
Cathay Pacific/Emirates/Airindia may have problems rerouting on ULH flights but co or technical halt like how Cathay used to their NYC flight via Vanc. AI though should pic...
The impacted airlines could reroute or put a technical halt for refuel if necessary. It's as simple as that. This is nothing having come out of pandemic. Use Pacific route frequently eastward because of pacific windstreams (especially near Japan)!
Qatar/Turkish should not have problem on most routes.
Cathay Pacific/Emirates/Airindia may have problems rerouting on ULH flights but co or technical halt like how Cathay used to their NYC flight via Vanc. AI though should pic a more sensible place to stop than SHJ especially somewhere halfway to SFO.
Actually may benefit passengers because taking an extra halt helps with bad effects of flights over 15 hours
*should not have problem rerouting
*could reroute
Anyways, SQ used to have all their USA flights with a single stop
Meanwhile, United could start Delhi/Blr/Bom via a technical halt (at least on the way in) - return should be do-able nonstop over pacific w/o use of Russian airspace. (from the west coast)
Don't want KE007 or MH17 again.
I guess the American way of doing Capitalism strikes again... Why even compete? Just lobby your government to ban your competitors!
And that's not even touching on the sanctions themselves, which amongst others, have turned the EU into even more of the US's ***** in favor of independence from Russia. This case is further proof of just how much they've backfired.
The US should never have gotten involved in Ukraine in the first place so it should definitely not force foreign carriers to not fly over Russian airspace. But if you agree that the US should be involved would it not be even better to simply ban all airlines from countries that do not support the US/EU sanctions from even flying to the US?
The US will always get involved.
Look at the countries that US supplied advance weapons. All buffer countries between US and Russia+China.
You have NATO defending the Atlantic, and Taiwan+Korea+Japan defending the Pacific.
Look at the armed forces of South America, where we didn't really need to supply them with anything.
It's almost impossible for conventional forces to reach North America without significant loses.
Did it occur to either of you that maybe it is Russia that should never have started the war with Ukraine?
Both Russia and China have openly stated that they want to grab territory of their neighbors, so no wonder other countries are looking for ways to protect themselves.
@SBS
It occurred to me that someone influenced a coup that led to all this.
Maybe they are following examples set in Guam, or Somoa?
Maybe if Cuba hosted advance equipment like what we stationed in Korea or Japan?
You don't see American P-8 doing SIGINT or F-35 carriers doing large exercise near Falklands do you?
Like every powerful nation would do. We needed a buffer state, so do they. They wanted to...
@SBS
It occurred to me that someone influenced a coup that led to all this.
Maybe they are following examples set in Guam, or Somoa?
Maybe if Cuba hosted advance equipment like what we stationed in Korea or Japan?
You don't see American P-8 doing SIGINT or F-35 carriers doing large exercise near Falklands do you?
Like every powerful nation would do. We needed a buffer state, so do they. They wanted to grab territory as much as we we're looking for WMDs and deploying armed forces right next door to them.
This isn't about right or wrong or picking sides. It's just geopolitics or powerful nations. Same goes to the propaganda playbook, Americans and Russians use them.
You write you own version of history when you win wars.
The internet was supposed to open you to freedom of information, yet people use it to double down their own propaganda beliefs.
From a consumer perspective, this is a ridiculous proposal. Air fares from India to the US are sky high right now particularly from Mumbai and Bangalore that have lost significant amounts of capacity.
Restricting Indian and middle eastern carriers will only lead to less options, circuitous routings and higher prices that will impinge trade between the two countries. And why? Just so that US carriers can earn more money. It’s this kind of warped...
From a consumer perspective, this is a ridiculous proposal. Air fares from India to the US are sky high right now particularly from Mumbai and Bangalore that have lost significant amounts of capacity.
Restricting Indian and middle eastern carriers will only lead to less options, circuitous routings and higher prices that will impinge trade between the two countries. And why? Just so that US carriers can earn more money. It’s this kind of warped capitalism that has gotten us into the economic mess that we all find ourselves in.
Such a ban may spell the end of direct flights between HKG and JFK (by Cathay Pacific), a route no current US airline operates. Shame.
I’m sure the people of Ukraine will mourn your having to connect in LAX or SFO now.
The people of Ukraine gain nothing by having foreign carriers fly longer routes.
Well, the U.S. kinda put itself and its airlines at a disadvantage by first banning Russian airlines from its airspace. Russia simply reciprocated. The US has no business trying to drag foreign airlines down because of their own foolish actions. Moreover, some commenters seem to be complaining that some foreign carriers provide access from Russia to the rest of the world. Do you really think ordinary Russians should have no options to travel? Or, like...
Well, the U.S. kinda put itself and its airlines at a disadvantage by first banning Russian airlines from its airspace. Russia simply reciprocated. The US has no business trying to drag foreign airlines down because of their own foolish actions. Moreover, some commenters seem to be complaining that some foreign carriers provide access from Russia to the rest of the world. Do you really think ordinary Russians should have no options to travel? Or, like in my case, have no options for my dual citizen child who lives in Russia with her mother to fly to the US to stay with me in the summer and at Christmas? Or me, a US citizen, have no options to go visit my child? Think before you make unintelligent comments. And I've seen some comments calling for countries to be punished that accept Russian tourist money. Um, hello? How many wars has the US started? Were you complaining about American tourist dollars then? Just sheer stupidity.
@Jesse: Yeah, that's the idea - ordinary Russians should not be able to fly abroad. Not nearly as bad as ordinary Ukrainians being bombed in their residential neighborhoods. Your dual citizen child, as well as you, can easily cross the land border at Narva/Ivangorod. Incidentally, Turkish tickets between US and Tallinn are way cheaper than flying directly to Russia. Assuming you are an actual US citizen and not a Russian troll, crossing the border into...
@Jesse: Yeah, that's the idea - ordinary Russians should not be able to fly abroad. Not nearly as bad as ordinary Ukrainians being bombed in their residential neighborhoods. Your dual citizen child, as well as you, can easily cross the land border at Narva/Ivangorod. Incidentally, Turkish tickets between US and Tallinn are way cheaper than flying directly to Russia. Assuming you are an actual US citizen and not a Russian troll, crossing the border into Russia may lead to some very interesting experiences for you.
@SBS I am a US citizen, and I also hold a Russian residence permit on the basis of having a Russian citizen child. I've crossed the Russian border more than 100 times, and have never been detained or questioned. However, within the last year, I get detained and my rights violated at the US border every time I enter the US. As for your comment about "that's the idea," ordinary Russians shouldn't be punished, just...
@SBS I am a US citizen, and I also hold a Russian residence permit on the basis of having a Russian citizen child. I've crossed the Russian border more than 100 times, and have never been detained or questioned. However, within the last year, I get detained and my rights violated at the US border every time I enter the US. As for your comment about "that's the idea," ordinary Russians shouldn't be punished, just like US citizens shouldn't be punished for the US's aggressive wars. Oh, and Ukraine has been terrorizing civilians since 2014 in Donbass...Karma is b****
This is an absolutely terrible precedent which opens other countries to start putting all sort of petty rules on US airlines and will absolutely hurt aviation.
The US should simply ban US citizens to book on an airline that flies over Russia; after that, let the market sort the rest out (i.e. if a non-US airline wants to sell to Americans, they'll choose to avoid flying over Russia). Travel bans on US citizens is nothing...
This is an absolutely terrible precedent which opens other countries to start putting all sort of petty rules on US airlines and will absolutely hurt aviation.
The US should simply ban US citizens to book on an airline that flies over Russia; after that, let the market sort the rest out (i.e. if a non-US airline wants to sell to Americans, they'll choose to avoid flying over Russia). Travel bans on US citizens is nothing new: for example, Americans are banned from traveling to Cuba.
Ban US citizens from booking on another airline? You are joking, right? And how would they do that? How would you propose the myriad of routes that EK, or TK, or whatever use over Russia would you propose to implement this? This really shows your level of intellect.
Further, this is not about passengers. It's about costs. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that U.S., EU, and some Asian carriers are subjected to...
Ban US citizens from booking on another airline? You are joking, right? And how would they do that? How would you propose the myriad of routes that EK, or TK, or whatever use over Russia would you propose to implement this? This really shows your level of intellect.
Further, this is not about passengers. It's about costs. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that U.S., EU, and some Asian carriers are subjected to far higher costs in fuel, reduction in selling seats to account for weight, reduced cargo, and technical stops due to winds that all vastly increase the operating expense of each flight to circumvent Russia. Clearly, you are missing the entire point. And to an extend I think Ben is as well and fueling these anti-ban sentiments.
They can prohibit foreign carriers from doing that; it’s easily done.
@Jake
"simply ban US citizens to"
And you will have NRA knocking on your door lecturing you about the constitution and freedom.
Seems reasonable and equitable to me. For that matter, now that China is sending weapons/armor directly to Russia (not to a proxy) ban them altogether. These countries are not our friends, and I'm tired of people saying "but, money" when it comes to them. #ByeFelicia to China, Russia, and Russian Airspace.
I’m with you, but our political parties are the worst enemies of the American people, truly are. Look at all the farmland being bought up by the chinese, look at all the chinese businesses around the US; for the life of me, why can’t we have the same rules that china imposes on foreign companies there? How hard is that to be done?
Why not force American air operators to confine themselves to American airspace? Stop the contamination! Next, will America ask Canada and Mexico to conform? This is pathetic. America in terminal decline is becoming unhinged. What if countries retaliate against US airlines? Part of the heavily bipartisan American Imperialism project...
@Indopithecus Thank you Tucker. Now go back to your Dominion defense while the rest of the world acts as grown ups.
For once the US airlines have come up with a request that seems fairly reasonable to me. Seems sensible and reasonable on both the safety and competition fronts.
The US carriers could simply lobby to be permitted to fly over Russian airspace. I for one do not support the sanctions and believe that I should have the freedom to choose. I would gladly choose the shorter flight.
Maybe we should look at Russian aircraft sending tourists to Southeast Asia and other countries while there is a war going on. Any country accepting money from Russian tourist like that should not be allowed to fly into US. So where will this all end. Just an additional thought on all this boycotting talk.
Kind of a dumb comment. How many countries happily took money from American tourists while the US was conducting wars?
@Jesse And which war did we conduct that even remotely resembles this? You will say Iraq of course, that’s an easy one to latch on to. But it was not a neighboring country, the leader was a lunatic as deranged as Putin, and we had no visions of annexing it as part of the United States. As misguided as it was, the intentions were not even remotely related to Russia’s attack of Ukraine. Or the...
@Jesse And which war did we conduct that even remotely resembles this? You will say Iraq of course, that’s an easy one to latch on to. But it was not a neighboring country, the leader was a lunatic as deranged as Putin, and we had no visions of annexing it as part of the United States. As misguided as it was, the intentions were not even remotely related to Russia’s attack of Ukraine. Or the cold blooded extermination if its people for territorial gain. Now who is the dumb one?
Why did the US support a coup in 2014 that overthrew a democratically elected govt in Ukraine?
Stuart, get off the drugs. Anyone with a brain knows that none of this would have ever happened if the US had not instigated a coup in 2014. Ukraine was more or less friendly with Russia until the US started meddling. And, how should Russia react, especially since Ukraine refused to implement the Minsk agreements and continued bombing civilians in Donbass? Should Russia just stand idly by while its neighbor becomes increasingly hostile, thus posing...
Stuart, get off the drugs. Anyone with a brain knows that none of this would have ever happened if the US had not instigated a coup in 2014. Ukraine was more or less friendly with Russia until the US started meddling. And, how should Russia react, especially since Ukraine refused to implement the Minsk agreements and continued bombing civilians in Donbass? Should Russia just stand idly by while its neighbor becomes increasingly hostile, thus posing a massive security risk? People who are pro-Ukraine DELIBERATELY ignore the atrocities committed by Ukraine, and pay no attention to the fact that Ukraine has been LESS democratic since the coup in 2014, based on the banning of opposition parties and the purging of the media. All you have to do is look at the extreme Russophobia and countless pictures of Nazi insignia on Ukrainian soldiers' uniforms to see that Russia's claim of Nazism in Ukraine has some basis in reality. Ukraine is NOT an innocent victim. Those who hijacked power in Kiev, with the tacit support of the US and its European lackeys, are the ones truly to blame for this happening.
Sometimes morally you must choose a side - you can not sit on the fence. In this case it is abundantly clear that Russia invaded a neighbor for purely evil purposes, causing millions of Ukrainians to be displaced, destroying multiple homes and villages, causing thousands of deaths and destruction of a sovereign country. I think any nation that wants to do business with Russia while the illegal invasion continues, should realize that it means they...
Sometimes morally you must choose a side - you can not sit on the fence. In this case it is abundantly clear that Russia invaded a neighbor for purely evil purposes, causing millions of Ukrainians to be displaced, destroying multiple homes and villages, causing thousands of deaths and destruction of a sovereign country. I think any nation that wants to do business with Russia while the illegal invasion continues, should realize that it means they can not also do business with Western democracies. Countries like India, Turkey, China, Saudi, South Africa, make your choice and if it is Russia, then so be it. We will have to make sacrifices as required and adjust accordingly. We may suffer economic pain, but what is integrity worth? I support the people of Ukraine and all actions that force Russia and its populace to pay for its reprehensible behaviors.
NATO (over)expansion, anyone?
Not NATO overexpansion, but soggy ambiguity.
In 2008 NATO should either have said Ukraine was in, or not.
The half-way house incensed Putin without providing security to Ukraine.
The Biden administration has at least realised how the same problem with Taiwan was unnecessarily risky.
Have you forgotten that the Ukrainian govt was fighting a low level war in the Donbass for nearly 10 years? I despise the war but the actions of the US only provoked Russia. Had Russia did the same in Mexico the US would immediately invade.
I have not forgotten that the Ukrainians were defending themselves from a Russian invasion for eight years.
Although the rest of the world was largely ignoring it.
Fortunately the US did some good work giving the UA army some training ideas, and unlike the Afghans the Ukrainians showed courage to stand up for liberty.
@Bagoly
But you have forgotten what happen before that eight years.
Make your choice?! it is a multi-polar world with enough choices!!. The unilater world where US dictates are slowly coming to an end?!!
India is NOT going to listen to USA. they have gotten too big for their Britches by thinking all the Indian CEO's here control everything.
I do find some merit to this - the US carriers are being disadvantaged by the routings to avoid Russian airspace - even if just by using more fuel which obviously increases costs.
However my concern - as a previous poster commented - would be a diversion to a Russian airport of a flight with numerous US citizens onboard. I would be very frightened about having to spend a night in Russia at the moment.
@ Fllfyer No just spending the night. False charges, interrogation & Lubyanka until you said exactly what they want. Putin is a thug. His people are thugs. He was staying at my hotel (BKK) years ago and my room was tossed every day. And that was in the hopeful times. Just yesterday he gave the US the bird visiting the bombed children's hospital in Mariuple. Bottom line he become an even more sociopathic killer.
US airlines decided not to use Russian airspace, why o why US feels others should follow???? we not living in a free world??
Wouldnt it be funny if all the global carriers told them where to go.
I did not realize until I started living outside the U.S. how much resentment is caused by the U.S. government's bad habit of trying to force the rest of the world to do its bidding. So the U.S. wants to ban Russian aircraft in its airspace? Fine, that's its right. As is accepting that Russia will act reciprocally, thus putting U.S. airlines at a competitive disadvantage. But bully the rest of the world into being...
I did not realize until I started living outside the U.S. how much resentment is caused by the U.S. government's bad habit of trying to force the rest of the world to do its bidding. So the U.S. wants to ban Russian aircraft in its airspace? Fine, that's its right. As is accepting that Russia will act reciprocally, thus putting U.S. airlines at a competitive disadvantage. But bully the rest of the world into being Washington's lapdog? That's no way to make or keep friends, and weakens the argument that siding with the U.S. is the morally superior choice.
To be clear, I don't support Putin's terrible war. Opposing it has costs, and the U.S. government appears to have decided that one acceptable cost is to put its airline industry at a disadvantage. So be it.
Last time I looked the EU was very much an equal partner in most every sanction and support of Ukraine. So why are you focused on the U.S. alone? In many cases the UK has been in front of most nations as to supplies and sanctions. This is not Vietnam. Nor the Middle East where there can be different approaches and where Bush Jr’s, “You are with us or against us” was absurd. This is...
Last time I looked the EU was very much an equal partner in most every sanction and support of Ukraine. So why are you focused on the U.S. alone? In many cases the UK has been in front of most nations as to supplies and sanctions. This is not Vietnam. Nor the Middle East where there can be different approaches and where Bush Jr’s, “You are with us or against us” was absurd. This is a fight to preserve freedom across the world, not just for Ukraine, but many other nations that will inevitably fall prey to Russia and China if Russia succeeds. And while the US may be the major defender of this fight, they are hardly forcing the EU, Japan, and many other countries to stand with them. Nations who believe in democracy and stability are all standing together willingly and United. So, please, stop turning this into a U.S. led fight against Russia where we bully other countries. Bottom line is, if Turkey, India, UAE and others want to fly over and to Russia, fine, have at it, but you are in turn not welcome here. Seems pretty simple, right?
"why are you focused on the U.S. alone?"
You raise a valid point, but to answer your question, I commented on the article, which is focused on the U.S.
Fair enough. But given that every step of sanctions and supplies has been equally supported by most Democratic nations, even many beyond NATO, I am fairly certain that this ban, at whatever level the US chooses, will be uniformly embraced and implemented as well. This has been a lock step effort thus far.
I don't think this is in the same vein of any of the previous times the U.S. has used it's "soft power" before. This is a real war, not an economic one. And remindervto alot of these countries: we support them economically and militarily too. Want to ship your wares around the world? Our NAVY defends your ships. So stop with all the "wah" talk from anecdotes you've heard "around the world".
@XPL, Good that you have understood the rest of us objecting to America exporting its laws.
(although with banks you are glad that you do, and for tech companies everyone should be glad that Brussels does)
But this is a real war of defence, and the outcome is not yet certain.
I do think it should be a joint decision by EU and USA.
The idea may have come from a US3 protectionist mindset, but its merits should be considered independent of that.
Some of so-called America friends aren’t really‘friends’.
All flights into the US or Departing from the US should be banned if they use Russian airspace. Additionally airlines that fly into Russia should be banned from flying to the United States. I am tired of supporting airlines that are playing both sides of the coin. Mideast airlines and Turkish need to be punished for supporting Russa.
Americans Dfw Pvg on the 772 route looks brutal. The flight time is consistently 15hrs50min.
Non us carriers not being allowed to fly over Russia is bad for the environment and just a tax that will be passed onto the passengers.
The only thing unfair is how pathetic the US government is and their sheep followers trying to destroy our country. How many wars were there under President Trump ? Zero.
I have no doubt that this will happen. And it should. If for anything to send a clear message to countries like UAE, India, and Turkey that they can't have their cake and eat it to. I'm tired of these nations (forget about China as they are a lost cause), being able to play both sides and be rewarded for it. Putin is a murdering lunatic of innocent people and anything we can do to...
I have no doubt that this will happen. And it should. If for anything to send a clear message to countries like UAE, India, and Turkey that they can't have their cake and eat it to. I'm tired of these nations (forget about China as they are a lost cause), being able to play both sides and be rewarded for it. Putin is a murdering lunatic of innocent people and anything we can do to get these other countries to stop closing their eyes to it the better.
With that, this does leave a lot of questions on the table. Would it apply to only fly over airspace flights in Russia? Or would this also include airlines serving Russian cities still, like EK and TK as two examples. It should, because this would further isolate Russia. And until we see the people there really feel the pain of sanctions Putin will never be questioned within his country. Nothing will anger them more than not being able to have long weekends in Dubai. No way these airlines would trade routes to Russia for abandoning the U.S. market. It would be catastrophic.
As well, this should apply to countries allowing Aeroflot to land there. Let's make it suitable, fair, and hard. Going half in will never do anything. I say go all in and do it now with the EU also joining us in this.
The interesting thing will be to see what China does. And would this extend to them and cargo flights to the U.S.? This could wreak havoc again on the supply chain and drive inflation here if Chinese cargo flights were banned.
A lot of questions remain in how deep and how serious this could go. It's pushing this countries and their airlines into a corner. But, quite frankly, they deserve it. And it could be the straw that breaks the camels back.
I would hope the tech hardware companies see the writing on the wall and move their assembly plants out of China. As for the rest of the supply chain, maybe now would be a good time to break the addiction to cheap Chinese junk that people use for a couple of months and then throw into garbage. US and EU will survive without $15 sneakers, $5 t-shirts and $20 toasters.
@SBS
How little you know and how much you over pay.
Sneakers are $3, t-shirts are $1, and toaster are $4.
But that's not the problem. You can't find people manufacturing these stuff. Moving assembly plans out of China would be too costly for consumers. Minimum wage + unions would make a lower qualify sneaker for $50.
@ Stuart. 100% agreed. Russia has made their position clear. And any country sitting on the fence needs to be called out. This requires commitment.
So, you're a Russophobe who wants to punish ordinary Russians. Got it. What about punishing Ukrainians for the countless atrocities commited by Kiev and that psychopath Zelensky? Or punishing Americans for their genocide of Native peoples and the many unjust wars started by the US? Or British people for thier evil empire that subjugated millions? Or the citizens of certain European nations that destroyed the development of most of Africa due to exploitation?
I think the U.S. punishes itself every day for its atrocities in the past. And no country is as forthcoming and honest with its mistakes. With that said, if your justification is that others did it in the past so Putin should be able to do it now, I remind you of your grandmother’s old advice, “One wrong doesn’t deserve another.”
As to Ukraine, you are clearly heck bent on the narrative Putin espouses. Says...
I think the U.S. punishes itself every day for its atrocities in the past. And no country is as forthcoming and honest with its mistakes. With that said, if your justification is that others did it in the past so Putin should be able to do it now, I remind you of your grandmother’s old advice, “One wrong doesn’t deserve another.”
As to Ukraine, you are clearly heck bent on the narrative Putin espouses. Says a lot about your position as a right wing aficionado. Ukraine caused no harm to anyone Over the years. They have suffered internal issues as every country does at times. None of this justified for an invasion that is clearly territorial and meant to exterminate the Ukrainian people from existence.
As to your request for my empathy towards the Russian people? Oh the horror of them not being able to go to Thailand or Dubai because of this inconvenient war.
I'd like to see a similar proposal in the EU. It should be noted that EU didn't ban our own airlines from flying via Russia - purely from the perspective of the European law, Lufthansa might very well fly to Moscow. The ban was introduced by Russia as a reciprocal measure for EU banning Russian airlines.
The problem is that this puts EU airlines at a significant disadvantage to their Asian competitors who can offer...
I'd like to see a similar proposal in the EU. It should be noted that EU didn't ban our own airlines from flying via Russia - purely from the perspective of the European law, Lufthansa might very well fly to Moscow. The ban was introduced by Russia as a reciprocal measure for EU banning Russian airlines.
The problem is that this puts EU airlines at a significant disadvantage to their Asian competitors who can offer much shorter flight times on EU-Asia flights. On top of that, Russia still earns money from navigation fees of flights to/from EU.
It should not be possible to use both EU airspace and Russian/Belarusian airspace on the same flight. It's not overstepping our jurisdiction - those flights take place in our airspace. Airlines would still be able to use Russian/Belarusian airspace on flights that don't operate via the EU airspace.
Yes
Foreign flag carrier won’t abide simply no need to fly to US
That’s all
Sure. Air India, Emirates, Qatar, Turkish and a bunch of other foreign flag carriers have no need to fly to the US and EU - they can make just as much money connecting Africa and South America to Russia and China. Caracas to Moscow route alone must have enough traffic for at least 10 daily A380s...
@SBS
I imagine international airfares are not expensive enough for you already. You way of thinking is what's killing the American economy. Bully these airline too much and it will backfire.
They need flights to the IS more so than the other way around.
I rarely disagree with Lucky, but this seems reasonable and equitable to me. Imposing sanctions is a serious action which should not be taken likely, but in the case of Russia it is, IMHO, clearly meritorious. And if we're going to impose sanctions, we should be committed to fully enforcing them. That means, in part, that to the extent we can control it, countries with more friendly relations with Russia should not be permitted to...
I rarely disagree with Lucky, but this seems reasonable and equitable to me. Imposing sanctions is a serious action which should not be taken likely, but in the case of Russia it is, IMHO, clearly meritorious. And if we're going to impose sanctions, we should be committed to fully enforcing them. That means, in part, that to the extent we can control it, countries with more friendly relations with Russia should not be permitted to profit off of those Russian ties -- and least of all at the expense of US competitors. Allowing those foreign carriers to gain a competitive advantage by cozying up to Russia would amount to an incentive for foreign governments to undermine the efficacy of our sanctions.
Totally agree with this statement. In fact, I would be happy if the US and EU governments went further and closed their airspace to any airline that operates flights to Russia. Right now Turkish, Emirates and Qatar are making tons of money by selling economy tickets for thousands of dollars that connect Russia to the rest of the world. Force these airlines to decide which market they want to keep, while making it harder for...
Totally agree with this statement. In fact, I would be happy if the US and EU governments went further and closed their airspace to any airline that operates flights to Russia. Right now Turkish, Emirates and Qatar are making tons of money by selling economy tickets for thousands of dollars that connect Russia to the rest of the world. Force these airlines to decide which market they want to keep, while making it harder for rich Russians to go on vacations to the Maldives or shipping in Paris and London.
This thread seems to be attracting brainwashed American Idiots like flies. The American economy is slowly cratering. Its banks are wobbling. The prosperity of all ensured by globalisation is being undermined. America in terminal decline is trying to pull the entire world down the toilet. Unless Biden short circuits the whole process by pulling off a nuclear holocaust...
The US has allies but no eternal friends. Even US allies rarely support it because the country has no long term stable policies and commitments, only at the wimp of the administration and congress in power. The current crop of politicians practices Bush's motto " Either you are with us or against us" abroad, while asserting the tyrannical minority's agendas on the will of the silent majority at home. China has already brokered the Iran-Saudi...
The US has allies but no eternal friends. Even US allies rarely support it because the country has no long term stable policies and commitments, only at the wimp of the administration and congress in power. The current crop of politicians practices Bush's motto " Either you are with us or against us" abroad, while asserting the tyrannical minority's agendas on the will of the silent majority at home. China has already brokered the Iran-Saudi diplomatic relations, depends on the longevity of its effectiveness, at the dismay of US and Israel. If China can broker a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia, it will bring the majority of the third world countries under its influence, except East Asian countries. China will find a way to weaken US currency dominance in the world in order to neutralize US economic sanction. But US economic sanction did not work on Iran, North Korea and Russia anyway. The US must think long and hard before exploiting its military and economic might on the next global conquest. We, as tax payers, will continue to enrich the industrial-military complex companies indefinitely, since Eisenhower warned us before he left the presidency.
lol No one is using U.S. airlines for foreign airtravel because of the quality, that is one. The U.S. Air carriers are mad because the U.S. government decided to forbid Russian Airlines from using E.U. and U.S. airspace, so they did the same. And now the U.S. air carriers are crying, because they got hit on their already weak postion of foreign airtravel.
lol No one is using U.S. airlines for foreign airtravel because of the quality, that is one
That's an argument of such amateurish quality that even Airliners.net would admonish it...
Best laugh all day: a photo of Air India's pathetic uncompetitive product, captioned "US airlines think they’re at an unfair disadvantage"
This is not just about passenger loads. It's more so about operating costs. Additional fuel, having to purposely fly with empty seats, reduced cargo, and technical stops when wind is bad for fuel. U.S. and European carriers (and Japanese and Korean) can out perform with passengers every day these other carriers, but they are doing so at a loss regardless while AI, as the example you cite, can operate at much lower costs given the favorable routing.
If foreign airlines use Russian airspace but US airlines don't, it's not fair competition. US airlines need to spend more to fly same O/D. It is as simple as that. This is mainly targeting China.
"That’s totally fair, but if this was such a serious concern, then why didn’t the US maintain a Russian airspace ban for US airlines following those incidents?"
I think the answer is simple that the situation was totally different pre "special military operation" wherein before Feb 2022 the US at least had bilateral relations with Russia, Aeroflot was regularly flying to US airports, etc
I think it should not be allowed for foreign flights when...
"That’s totally fair, but if this was such a serious concern, then why didn’t the US maintain a Russian airspace ban for US airlines following those incidents?"
I think the answer is simple that the situation was totally different pre "special military operation" wherein before Feb 2022 the US at least had bilateral relations with Russia, Aeroflot was regularly flying to US airports, etc
I think it should not be allowed for foreign flights when the services is to/from the US. For flights between countries without bans such as UAE to China I couldn't care less if those use Russian airspace
"...before Feb 2022 the US at least had bilateral relations with Russia..."
The U.S. continues to have bilateral (i.e. diplomatic) relations with Russia. And in any case, you are confusing diplomatic relations with passenger safety. The U.S. can and does allow flights to nations it does not recognize (e.g. Taiwan) and can and does disallow flights of airlines that the FAA judges to be unsafe even though their originating governments are recognized.
I get that relations with Russia are a politically charged topic, but compare this with EU "passenger rights" rules. These apply not only to any EU airline, but also non-EU airlines flying from the EU. By your argument, it isn't fair to force AA or UA to pay up for atrocious delays just because the flight is from an EU airport. Whatever the declared logic, these rules are obviously to ensure that foreign carriers do...
I get that relations with Russia are a politically charged topic, but compare this with EU "passenger rights" rules. These apply not only to any EU airline, but also non-EU airlines flying from the EU. By your argument, it isn't fair to force AA or UA to pay up for atrocious delays just because the flight is from an EU airport. Whatever the declared logic, these rules are obviously to ensure that foreign carriers do not have a competitive advantage over domestic carriers. Whether or not you agree with the overflight restrictions, it doesn't seem unreasonable to require both foreign and domestic carriers to abide by the same rules.
@Andy11235 - maybe my age is showing here, but when 261/2004 was being drafted I recall that the extraterritorial application was one of the major concerns. In the end, the logic was that any cancellation (delays were explicitly excluded from the original regulation until the activist judiciary decided to include them) that occurs at an EU airport falls within EU jurisdiction due to the location, and any cancellation by an EU carrier at any airport...
@Andy11235 - maybe my age is showing here, but when 261/2004 was being drafted I recall that the extraterritorial application was one of the major concerns. In the end, the logic was that any cancellation (delays were explicitly excluded from the original regulation until the activist judiciary decided to include them) that occurs at an EU airport falls within EU jurisdiction due to the location, and any cancellation by an EU carrier at any airport falls within EU jurisdiction due to the regulatory regime it operates under. That is why EU carriers are subject to 261/2004 penalties even for flights departing non-EU airports, while non-EU carriers are only subject to this for flights departing EU airports and not flights arriving at EU airports.
I appreciate the issues with jurisdiction. Airplanes flying over US airspace are subject to US jurisdiction. Of course, this jurisdiction is limited by the international agreements on commercial air transit to which the US is a party. Part of international business is playing by the rules of other countries. My point was that the EU has rules that apply to US companies in the situations where EU courts have decided there is jurisdiction. Similarly, foreign...
I appreciate the issues with jurisdiction. Airplanes flying over US airspace are subject to US jurisdiction. Of course, this jurisdiction is limited by the international agreements on commercial air transit to which the US is a party. Part of international business is playing by the rules of other countries. My point was that the EU has rules that apply to US companies in the situations where EU courts have decided there is jurisdiction. Similarly, foreign companies have to play by US rules when doing business in the US. We aren't talking about a power play like FATCA; airlines operating in the US have a clear business nexus in the US.
You are confusing "passenger rights", "government embargo" and "competitive advantage".
Qatar code shares with AA, so not sure why the restriction would not apply to Qatar.
@ Roper -- They only codeshare on select routes to & from the United States that don't fly over Russia. I discussed that more in this post:
https://onemileatatime.com/news/american-cuts-cathay-pacific-codeshare/
Lol the government put US airlines on a manufactured disadvantage and now forced other airlines to do the same? Biggest cry baby ever. Meanwhile US largest trading partner is visiting moscow right now making mockery of america. US can’t tell other country what to do. I thought that’s against democracy. Oh I dare ICC issue a warrant against bush or blair.
Russian Landmass covers more than half of the northern hemisphere. What about the increased carbon footprint due to longer flight routes ? I think the Biden Admin should stop pretending that they care about the environment because their actions so far have only proven otherwise.
many Americans and duel nationals will take the quickest route, even it crosses Russia. I am sure if Russia wanted to divert a flight to land and take hostages, they could. the U.S. continues to have diplomatic relations with Russia and we are not at war with them. many Americans are originally from Russia and have family there. the banning of flights to and from Russia, let alone, flying over Russia is a vast overreach...
many Americans and duel nationals will take the quickest route, even it crosses Russia. I am sure if Russia wanted to divert a flight to land and take hostages, they could. the U.S. continues to have diplomatic relations with Russia and we are not at war with them. many Americans are originally from Russia and have family there. the banning of flights to and from Russia, let alone, flying over Russia is a vast overreach at this point. would I visit Russia now, the answer is no. but, many people would and still do.
Bro this is just BS, how can the US make such absurd claims and force other countries who didn’t follow their vote to follow their rules. This is a highly competitive society and the US airlines not being able to fly over Russian airspace is a US problem, not the world’s problem. Besides, Russia and Belarus aren’t that stupid as the US claims, so as we can see here, it’s just a demonstration of the...
Bro this is just BS, how can the US make such absurd claims and force other countries who didn’t follow their vote to follow their rules. This is a highly competitive society and the US airlines not being able to fly over Russian airspace is a US problem, not the world’s problem. Besides, Russia and Belarus aren’t that stupid as the US claims, so as we can see here, it’s just a demonstration of the pointless arguments of the US claiming they have a disadvantage because of their personal problems.
You didn't get the memo on both Iraq "special military operation" and Iran sanctions?
Where are all the WMDs?
Probably all covered in crude oil.
I would not want to be an American on a foreign airline overflying Russia if there were a diversion. I’ll gladly take the US airline with circuitous routing.
Bro I’m also American and I’ve flown over Russian/Belarusian airspace on Turkish Airlines and Air India respectively. There’s literally no problem when flying over Russian airspace because they simply don’t care. I understand your concern, but at the same time, it’s not all that dangerous
No danger for you, but there are plenty of citizens that could be at danger. Millions work for the government as employees or contractors. Imagine a random NSA contractor on vacation is on a plane that diverts to Russia and they figure it out.
@Alex J - Those in sensitive roles are booking the flights that avoid Russian airspace already. And actual Government funded travel is subject to Fly America anyway, so a moot point.
You shouldn't carry sensitive documents with you on vacation, whatever comes from the office stays in the office.