Qantas In Dispute With Pilots Over Airbus A380

Qantas In Dispute With Pilots Over Airbus A380

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As reported by The Sydney Morning Herald, Qantas is taking its pilots to court over who gets to fly the Airbus A380. This is an interesting case…

Qantas tries to hire A380 pilots externally

Many airlines use a strict seniority system for pilots, whereby your seniority determines what aircraft you fly, what your position is (captain, first officer, etc.), and where you’ll be based.

This works just fine most of the time, except when you have a huge increase or decrease in the number of pilots flying, as we saw during the pandemic. Switching the plane or position you fly requires extensive training, which is expensive and time consuming.

During the pandemic, so many pilots had changes to the planes they were flying, so airline training facilities were full. This is essentially what’s now causing some issues at Qantas.

In addition to captains and first officers, Qantas also has second officers, who are essentially relief pilots on long haul flights. As the airline brings more Airbus A380s back into service, it also needs more second officers for these jets. How these pilots should be sourced is what’s causing some issues at the airline right now.

Qantas wants to hire 20 second officers externally, who will act as relief pilots on the world’s largest passenger jet. Meanwhile the Australian International Pilots Association, which represents pilots at the airline, is opposing this.

The union points out that second officers should be promoted from the Airbus A330 and Boeing 787 (Qantas’ two other jets with second officers), and then new pilots can be hired from outside to fill those positions. After all, when there’s a seniority based system, that’s how it’s supposed to work. Those hired externally start at the bottom of the totem pole.

However, Qantas rejects this, claiming that it would be too complicated to do this, since it would essentially double training requirements. Rather than just having to train 20 external pilots on the A380, the airline would instead have to train 20 internal pilots on the A380, and then 20 external pilots on the A330 or 787.

The union argues that Qantas is breaking its contract with pilots:

“The pilot seniority and allocation system has been accepted at Qantas for more than half a century to provide dedicated and long-serving pilots with a clear career pathway. Regrettably Qantas has attempted to ride roughshod over this seniority and allocation system to reduce training requirements, which have been an understood and accepted part of flight operations for a long time.”

Meanwhile Qantas claims that so many pilots are being brought back that this shouldn’t really matter, as everyone is getting promoted quickly:

“We have a record amount of training underway as we bring more pilots back after COVID, hire hundreds of new pilots and promote existing pilots to more senior positions. We are at near capacity in our training facilities, so we are looking at how we can best allocate the limited training positions and ensure we can do as much flying as possible.”

The union then argued that if Qantas wanted to directly hire pilots from outside the airline to fly the A380, then the company would have to compensate pilots it overlooks, in line with a clause in the bargaining agreement. The airline says those regulations don’t apply in this case, and is now taking the union to court.

Qantas doesn’t want to promote second officers internally

This pretty much sums up Qantas’ approach to labor relations

Based on my understanding of this situation, it seems like the union is in the right here. While it’s inconvenient to promote second officers to the A380 rather than hiring externally (since it doubles the amount of training required), that’s how a seniority based system is supposed to work.

But unfortunately a complete lack of interest in maintaining good labor relations has been a hallmark of Alan Joyce’s tenure as CEO of the airline. This is far from the first time that Qantas management has shown such disregard for its employees. I’m actually amazed that service at Qantas is generally halfway decent, given management’s disregard for frontline workers.

While many Australians have historically loved Qantas, there’s simply no denying that Joyce hasn’t been great for labor relations or passenger experience. He has been ruthlessly focused on the bottom line, though, which I know some shareholders appreciate. And to his credit, it hasn’t exactly been an easy few years for the industry.

With Qantas getting a new CEO in the coming months, I’d expect it to probably still be business as usual when it comes to labor relations, given that she has worked side-by-side with Joyce in the Qantas ecosystem for so many years.

Qantas’ latest dispute involves piloting the A380

Bottom line

Qantas and its pilots are going to court over Airbus A380 pilot promotions. The airline needs 20 relief pilots for the A380, as the planes are brought back into service.

The company wants to hire these pilots externally, arguing it would take too many resources to promote pilots from within. Meanwhile the union is arguing that this isn’t how the seniority system works, and that these pilots should be promoted from A330s and 787s.

What do yo make of this dispute between Qantas and the union representing pilots?

Conversations (18)
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  1. Peter Ford Guest

    BA pay scales are based on seniority. A 10 year P2 on an A320 is paid the same as an A380 pilot of equal seniority. Saves all the double training, as pilots don’t have to be on the biggest type to increase their pay. Also BA don’t employ partially qualified Second Officers who are not allowed to take off and land on route trips. All BA copilots are trained to Captain standard as required, as many A380 routes are crewed by just two pilots.

  2. Andrew Wakefield Guest

    Joyce has well f*cked up and doesn't care as retirement looming.
    Over the pandemic Project Sunrise should have sorted and then as soon as possible ordered jets.
    Believe me, yes I am lucky, but I would never fly non-stop on 787 Dreamliner.
    SAI from LHR - SYD with a 3h stopover SIN after deplaning would pass in no time. I'd much SAI Suites than a cramped not particularly good hard business class...

    Joyce has well f*cked up and doesn't care as retirement looming.
    Over the pandemic Project Sunrise should have sorted and then as soon as possible ordered jets.
    Believe me, yes I am lucky, but I would never fly non-stop on 787 Dreamliner.
    SAI from LHR - SYD with a 3h stopover SIN after deplaning would pass in no time. I'd much SAI Suites than a cramped not particularly good hard business class seats.
    Joyce's Project Sunrise won't work I believe on an A350. Qantas doesn't act first, it reacts. It's funny how BA have been operating their A380 for well over a year, and getting 103% loads, but with no-shows there flying 100% loads.

  3. jetjock64 Guest

    Any certificated airline pilot can, with the proper training, be easily qualified as a "380 pilot." So, the issue is not a lack of 380 pilots to be found at Quantas but whether the the courts will confirm the pilot union's legal right to force the airline to honor seniority, as set out in their contract.

  4. SNO Guest

    I wonder where Qantas will find A380 pilots and why these pilots are available?
    There isn't a large fleet of A380s flying worldwide like the A320 or the 737. What is the reason these individuals are seeking employment by Qantas? Are they cheap labor to bridge the time until the A380s are replaced by a more efficient plane?
    This labor dispute is a strange situation. One would assume there are A380 pilots from...

    I wonder where Qantas will find A380 pilots and why these pilots are available?
    There isn't a large fleet of A380s flying worldwide like the A320 or the 737. What is the reason these individuals are seeking employment by Qantas? Are they cheap labor to bridge the time until the A380s are replaced by a more efficient plane?
    This labor dispute is a strange situation. One would assume there are A380 pilots from within Qantas left, who were flying them pre COVID. What happened to them? Wouldn't they be the best option, since they are Qantas staff already (is it the downgrade of the position, that is an issue do accept a second officer position)?

    1. Kraut Guest

      I imagine there are plenty of Aussies working for Gulf carriers flying the A380 that would love to walk into that job at home

  5. Carrie Gold

    Mr Joyce could not possibly leave without picking a fight - it simply would not be in his make-up to go without noise. But it may also be that the Board desires clear air (pun intended) before the new CEO commences her tenure.

  6. Paul Guest

    Why don't they just hire new second officers with training on the 787 or A330. Problem solved and only one lot of training. God I'm brilliant. Move over Joyce and I'll take your $2M salary

    Am I missing something

    1. BenjaminKohl Diamond

      Yes, you're missing something. Qantas needs to hire second officers for the A380, they already have plenty for the A330/787.

  7. Jayendra Singh Guest

    Need to sort this out, there were flight cancellations from LAX/SYD (A380) affecting many passengers, with no compensation from Qantas. Very poor customer service, and a bad image of Australian Airline.

  8. SnM Guest

    I don't want to fly with an airline that has unhappy pilots

  9. Tini Guest

    The union is right-management is wrong.

    1. RF Guest

      Yup and Alan Joyce is a terrible CEO.

    2. Heathrow_LHR Guest

      ....said NO ONE who's ever had to work under nepo-baby executives who've never spent a minute in their worthless lives of conducting/organizing/effectively-managing actual labor.

    3. ConcordeBoy Diamond

      @Heathrow,
      I think what the original poster meant, is that the union is correct and management is at odds with the truth.

      Not that union-is-right style of management is wrong. :)

  10. Cody Q Guest

    You DON’T want to piss off the Pilots!

  11. TravelinWilly Diamond

    Joyce’s last day cannot come fast enough.

    He’s the Ron DeSatan of CEOs, picking a stupid fight that he’ll lose, and looking like the asshole he is in the meantime.

    1. Derek Pratte Pratte Guest

      Gotcha, Willy DeSatan.

  12. John Guest

    The outgoing Joyce regime having a battle with the rank and file. What a shock! Or put another way: it's just another normal day at QANTAS.

Featured Comments Most helpful comments ( as chosen by the OMAAT community ).

The comments on this page have not been provided, reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any advertiser, and it is not an advertiser's responsibility to ensure posts and/or questions are answered.

Heathrow_LHR Guest

....said NO ONE who's ever had to work under nepo-baby executives who've never spent a minute in their worthless lives of conducting/organizing/effectively-managing actual labor.

1
TravelinWilly Diamond

Joyce’s last day cannot come fast enough. He’s the Ron DeSatan of CEOs, picking a stupid fight that he’ll lose, and looking like the asshole he is in the meantime.

1
Peter Ford Guest

BA pay scales are based on seniority. A 10 year P2 on an A320 is paid the same as an A380 pilot of equal seniority. Saves all the double training, as pilots don’t have to be on the biggest type to increase their pay. Also BA don’t employ partially qualified Second Officers who are not allowed to take off and land on route trips. All BA copilots are trained to Captain standard as required, as many A380 routes are crewed by just two pilots.

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