In 2017, Delta Air Lines introduced its Delta One Suite, which is the carrier’s latest business class product. At the time, Delta was the first global US carrier to add a door to a business class seat (JetBlue Mint also had doors at select seats, though JetBlue didn’t operate any long haul routes at the time).
It has now been around eight years since Delta introduced its new business class product, so how many of the carrier’s long haul jets have this product? I’d like to talk about that a bit in this post, so that passengers can get a sense of which product they’ll find on which Delta aircraft. I wrote similar guides for American and United.
In this post:
What are Delta One Suites in business class like?
Delta refers to its latest business class product as Delta One Suites. This is a modified version of the Vantage XL seat, which you’ll find on a variety of airlines. Personally I rank this toward the bottom of the list of the world’s best business class seats (meaning it’s very good, but there are some better products).
These seats are pretty solid and they’re in a staggered configuration, with doors. Now, the seats may feel a bit tight for some people — one of the reasons these staggered configurations are so popular with airlines is because of how efficiently they utilize space, with the area for your feet being located to the side of the seat in front.
Anyway, it’s the best that the airline has to offer, so if you do fly Delta business class, you’ll ideally want to end up on these planes.
Which planes have Delta One Suites?
Given Delta’s huge and varied wide body and international fleet, on which aircraft can you expect to find Delta One Suites? Let’s take a look, covering all Delta aircraft that have flights that are marketed as Delta One (which is what Delta calls its premium business class).
All Airbus A350-900s have Delta One Suites
Delta currently has a fleet of 38 Airbus A350-900s, with another six of these jets on order (in addition to 20 Airbus A350-1000s, which will be delivered starting in 2027, and should feature a new business class product).
All Delta A350-900s have Delta One Suites. This is the aircraft for which the Delta One Suite was designed, and you’ll find that this aircraft also has the most spacious business class seats. While the seats are the same, note that there are two types of configurations — one has 32 business class seats, and the other has 40 business class seats.
All Delta A330-900neos have Delta One Suites
Delta currently has a fleet of 39 Airbus A330-900neos, with no more of these planes on order. All Delta A330-900neos have identical interiors, with Delta One Suites that have doors.
The catch is that given the A330-900neo’s narrower fuselage, you’ll find that the Delta One Suite feels quite a bit tighter than on the A350-900.
No Delta A330-200s & A330-300s have Delta One Suites
Delta has a fleet of 11 A330-200s and 31 A330-300s. These planes have reverse herringbone seats in business class. While this is a popular kind of seat, these are far from the most cutting edge reverse herringbone seats out there, and many find them to feel a bit tight.
Delta has plans to retrofit its A330-300s as of late 2026, though we don’t know what kind of a product they’ll get. My assumption would be that they’ll get Delta One Suites, similar to what you’ll find on the A330-900neo, but that’s purely speculation. Meanwhile there are no plans to reconfigure A330-200s. While I imagine they’ll fly well into the 2030s, they are a bit older than the A330-300s.
No Delta 767-400ERs have Delta One Suites
Delta has a fleet of 21 Boeing 767-400ERs, which are used for both international and key transcontinental routes. These planes have a staggered business class configuration, though at least it has been refreshed in recent years. While these planes don’t have Delta One Suites, they do have some privacy partitions, and updated finishes.
These seats will still feel on the tight side, given the narrow fuselage of the 767, plus how staggered seats are arranged. While the 767-400s have more modern seats than the A330-200s and A330-300s, I’d still say that the A330s offer a more comfortable seating configuration. Delta doesn’t have plans to update the interiors of the 767s further.
No Delta 767-300ERs have Delta One Suites
Delta has a fleet of 38 Boeing 767-300ERs. These planes are by far Delta’s weakest wide body jets, and I’d argue these have among the worst business class seats you’ll find on any carrier, at least compared to what you’d hope the airline offers.
These seats are tight, outdated, have small entertainment monitors, etc. What’s so frustrating is that these jets are flown on all kinds of transatlantic routes where Delta charges top dollar, while offering a disappointing experience. Delta has no plans to update these interiors, though the planes are expected to be pulled from international flights by 2028, and to be retired by 2030 (though who knows).
No Delta 757-200s have Delta One Suites
While not a wide body jet, some Delta 757-200s also have a Delta One cabin. Delta has 77 Boeing 757-200s, but only 12 of them have flat beds, and operate routes where the forward cabin is marketed as Delta One. On these planes, Delta has the Collins Aerospace Diamond product, which are fully flat seats in a 2-2 configuration. This isn’t an exciting product, but you really can’t expect much more for an outdated narrow body aircraft like this.
Bottom line
Back in 2017, Delta introduced its new Delta One Suites business class. So far, this product is found on all A350-900s and A330-900neos. Unfortunately you’ll find different seats on the carrier’s A330-200s, A330-300s, 767-300ERs, 767-400ERs, and 757-200s.
It’s disappointing that Delta has gone so many years without retrofitting the new suites on any other planes currently in service. The A330-300s should get some new seats starting in 2026, but that’s the extent of the plans to retrofit the existing fleet.
What do you make of the rollout of Delta One Suites?
Delta’s a359 DeltaOne Suites with the door are my personal favorite, followed by 339 without door, and 764 without door, in that order. Personally, I find it to be a superior hard-product to United’s Polaris (787, 777) and American’s Flagship Business (787, 777), when comparing US-based carriers. JetBlue’s TATL new Mint is the only thing that comes close (also has a door); I haven’t tried it yet, but American’s new Flagship Suite is supposedly similar....
Delta’s a359 DeltaOne Suites with the door are my personal favorite, followed by 339 without door, and 764 without door, in that order. Personally, I find it to be a superior hard-product to United’s Polaris (787, 777) and American’s Flagship Business (787, 777), when comparing US-based carriers. JetBlue’s TATL new Mint is the only thing that comes close (also has a door); I haven’t tried it yet, but American’s new Flagship Suite is supposedly similar. I just hope all these airlines continue to upgrade their premium hard product. Consistency matters.
Good morning Ben …. :-)
I forgot to mention the A330 I flew on to Detroit was absolutely filthy, as if they turned it around without any cleaning whatsoever
They being Delta
Timmy - comment??
Fake Eskimo - comment??
Delta doesn't fly A330s to DTW
They did when I last flew them.
Not anymore. When was this?
Pre-Covid
Makes sense. Delta has moved the A330 fleet to their SEA/ATL hubs and focusing the A350 on DTW. Stimulation of the Detroit GDP is critical as it is becoming the fastest growing tech hub in the world - Silicon Valley of the North. Really interesting to see what is going on especially when you consider the expansion of DTW, increasing the terminal space by 3x by 2034!
This is the first I've heard of any tech hub happening in Detroit lol
Sounds like their cleaning team in Geneva messed up; then again, maybe your expectations were too high, coming from Switzerland to an Atlanta-based carrier…
DL made $1.45 billion in profits on its international system in 2024.
The entire rest of the industry made $833 million in profits in 2024.
AA lost $106 million while UA made just $915 million which is breathtaking low given how much larger their international network is than DL's.
apparently, business class seat differences don't amount to near as much as some people want to believe.
oh, and AA's domestic system contributed $1.37...
DL made $1.45 billion in profits on its international system in 2024.
The entire rest of the industry made $833 million in profits in 2024.
AA lost $106 million while UA made just $915 million which is breathtaking low given how much larger their international network is than DL's.
apparently, business class seat differences don't amount to near as much as some people want to believe.
oh, and AA's domestic system contributed $1.37 billion in profits, DL was at $2.3 billion and $2.2 billion for UA so those that want to argue that airlines just shift profits between domestic and global regions doesn't hold water.
Plus AA fly to INDIA too. One flight there and the whole thing reeks of pissy and poopy seat cushions.
Tim - at what age did you realize your testicles were undescended? Asking for the community.
Darryl Stewart's favorite line. Wonderful to see he is well remembered (and loved!) in the community!
Tim, thank you for pointing out the obvious misuse of the English language by some illiterate Delta Airlines employee.
An ‘Air Line’ is actually a hose or metal tube in which compressed air is conveyed from a compressor to a remote work station.
Therefore, Delta will always be an “Airline” and not an air hose or tide.
Again, the post above has popped-up in the wrong response area, apologies.
Again, the post above has popped-up in the wrong response area, apologies.
it is most notable that the usual subjects can't be bothered to address the clear data that shows that
1. If having a Suite matters, then it has clearly given DL a profit advantage
since AA and UA had no Suite products in 2024 and UA still doesn't while AA has a couple planes w/ it, tops
or
2. If it doesn't matter and the 767 products don't matter, then clearly other factors do and DL has nailed them
I’m an LAX based Diamond Medallion with like ~50k MQD, 1K (by the bare minimum of like 28xxx PQP), and ExPlat (again kinda minimum of like 225k LP right now), so I feel qualified to comment here. My company pays for business/first.
The Delta A350 suites are uncomfortable. I haven’t gotten one with the mattress topper and cloth seats yet, but it’s generally a bad seat for lounging, and has sharp spots for sleeping....
I’m an LAX based Diamond Medallion with like ~50k MQD, 1K (by the bare minimum of like 28xxx PQP), and ExPlat (again kinda minimum of like 225k LP right now), so I feel qualified to comment here. My company pays for business/first.
The Delta A350 suites are uncomfortable. I haven’t gotten one with the mattress topper and cloth seats yet, but it’s generally a bad seat for lounging, and has sharp spots for sleeping. The “leather” is a bad choice and I don’t like the feeling that I’m laying down on the floor in a coffin.
The DL One lounge is exceptional—I’m waiting for them to devalue it. No way it’ll last.
I compare that seat to the JAL A350-1000 and it’s night and day.
The bummer is that Delta seems to think these Thompson XL seats are world leading, so I don’t see much opportunity to improve.
The 767 seats are uncomfortable enough that I almost consider AA’s A321neo recliners to be more comfortable for a non-redeye.
The 757 DL One seat is actually my choice for being most comfortable and adjustable.
A330 (not) suites are also fine, but I don’t get them much.
Dirty secret is that Delta has noticeably worse legroom in First Class on all their domestic seats. Their A321neos with the partitions are such a disaster with a choice of form over function. Hard cushions, the oven debacle, tight legroom, and those infernal center dividers make no sense. Maybe it would work with 40” pitch.
Delta is headed in the wrong direction.
I’ll take the AA business seats, even the weird ones that rock around over Delta’s seats.
I could go on forever, whine about how tight the United Polaris seats are, how bad their catering is and how awful their boarding is (literally the only reason I go for 1K is to avoid lining up like cattle on a paid first class seat.) Overall United feels like Amtrak.
I get that there are two AA’s: the version where you’re connecting through DFW and CLT on a late 28 minute impossible connection and the one where you’re on a premium nonstop that’s on time. I stick to the latter and generally have a good time. If they matched Delta and United’s wine on long haul there would be no downside.
QUEUE THE TIMOTHY DUNN FANATICS IN THE COMMENTS!!!!!!!!
GO TIM! GO!! WE BEREAVE IN YEWW!!!
NASTY CASE OF UNDESCENDED TESTICLES!!!
It is reported on the right side of the pond, that the US transport secretary has urged Americans to be more respectful for Thanksgiving. Isn't it high time that some who post herein reflected upon their manners too?
AeroB13a, as our President said: “Quiet, piggy.”
1990 …. lol, is that comment a declaration of war old bean? …. :-)
QUEUE THE fake eskimo FANATICS IN THE COMMENTS!!!!!!!!
The point is that rankings are hypotheses to be tested. I care less about rankings and use them as a guide: try the product and see if you like it. After all, tastes do differ and some prefer some features over others. I no longer fly Delta 767….as mentioned in the piece here…..top dollar for totally antiquated rubbish on 767 business class. Let’s not even mention food and service. DL is like DL UK, aka...
The point is that rankings are hypotheses to be tested. I care less about rankings and use them as a guide: try the product and see if you like it. After all, tastes do differ and some prefer some features over others. I no longer fly Delta 767….as mentioned in the piece here…..top dollar for totally antiquated rubbish on 767 business class. Let’s not even mention food and service. DL is like DL UK, aka Virgin Atlantic…great on the ground and with clubs, not so much in the air.
Ben, you should default sort comments by Most Helpful to prevent spam at the top.
A redditification that's not needed and will degrade the site
Nah, it’s needed.
99, “Redditification”, really? Canadian English is becoming as silly as American adulteration of the English language …. :-)
I leave the natives with another spanner in their works ….
Top 10 U.S. Airlines Ranked By The Daily Telegraph.
No: 10. Spirit Airlines.
Tenth place is arguably too high for an airline that makes EasyJet look like Emirates!
No: 9. Frontier Airlines.
Frontier’s slogan – “Low Fares Done Right” – will not fly under any kind of scrutiny, but at least this budget airline does a better job than Spirit.
No: 8....
I leave the natives with another spanner in their works ….
Top 10 U.S. Airlines Ranked By The Daily Telegraph.
No: 10. Spirit Airlines.
Tenth place is arguably too high for an airline that makes EasyJet look like Emirates!
No: 9. Frontier Airlines.
Frontier’s slogan – “Low Fares Done Right” – will not fly under any kind of scrutiny, but at least this budget airline does a better job than Spirit.
No: 8. Hawaiian Airlines.
Compared to the Big Four, Hawaiian still has a modest route map, but when it’s flying to paradise, does it really matter?
No: 7. JetBlue Airlines.
It has expanded its “Mint” class premium cabins with lay flat sleeper pods (aka “Apart-mints”) represent seriously good value, particularly on its bargain routes to the East Coast from Gatwick and Heathrow.
No: 6. Delta Airlines. (Note: not Air Lines)
Arguably the most overrated of the Big Four, Delta separates opinion almost as much as it separates the word “airlines”. The Atlanta-based operator frequently ranks highly in terms of reliability and service (with some nice recent touches including free inflight texting) but is often criticised for being too expensive …. (Sorry Tim)
No: 5. Southwest Airlines.
The golden child of budget airlines, Southwest remains America’s largest low-cost carrier, with an impressive 17.3 per cent market share. Exclusively flying Boeing 737 jets.
No: 4. Alaska Airlines.
The Seattle-based carrier has long since outgrown the regional confines of its name, reaching right across the US and deep into Latin America, while building a reputation as the most family-friendly airline in the skies.
No: 3. American Airlines.
Its reach is mind-boggling, serving 224 domestic airports across 50 states and 350 international destinations in more than 50 countries.
No: 2. United Airlines.
United flies to more than 225 US cities, operating 4,000 domestic flights a day. It also boasts an outstanding international network, from Greenland to Mongolia, including 75 destinations serviced by no other US airline.
No: 1. JSX.
The model of a semi-private air carrier is ingenious. You book a seat on a 30-seater private jet, flying out of a small hangar in a big hub like New York, Dallas or Los Angeles, checking in 20 minutes prior to departure. JSX already operates 140 jets a day between 28 destinations, with the business taking off at a velocity that has the big boys seriously worried.
it's hard to take you seriously the way your registered profile turns off all the time to make way for Tim...
Plain Jane, one simply loves living inside your empty skull, it is so peaceful except when toe gramophone record gets stuck and you repeat the same old, same old.
It most certainly is Delta Air Lines and not Delta Airlines. They are incorporated as Delta Air Lines.
False. "Delta Air Lines Incorporated" is the legally incorporated name. Google it.
False. "Fake Eskimo" is the legally incorporated name. Google it.
Tim, thank you for pointing out the obvious misuse of the English language by some illiterate Delta Airlines employee.
An ‘Air Line’ is actually a hose or metal tube in which compressed air is conveyed from a compressor to a remote work station.
Therefore, Delta will always be an “Airline” and not an air hose or tide.
Air Line historically and colloquially refers to a passenger or cargo transport company engaged in moving those commodities from place to place using aircraft. Since most air transport terminology was originally taken from that of ocean shipping - terms like “port” and “starboard” - one could argue that the colloquial use is just as valid as the perfect grammatical use. One would not say that APL (American President Lines) is not a valid name for...
Air Line historically and colloquially refers to a passenger or cargo transport company engaged in moving those commodities from place to place using aircraft. Since most air transport terminology was originally taken from that of ocean shipping - terms like “port” and “starboard” - one could argue that the colloquial use is just as valid as the perfect grammatical use. One would not say that APL (American President Lines) is not a valid name for that ocean shipping company because they are not engaged in the business of moving presidents from place to place. Thus, “Blank Air Lines” can still refer to a company engaged in moving things and people from place to place via air transport, referring to the routes from place to place as “lines” much like a bus.
There are hundreds of examples of companies that have incorporated themselves or have dba names using grammatically incorrect or outdated terminology. At the end of the day, referring to a company by other than its preferred or legal name or nickname is simply disingenuous.
To settle the argument about which U.S. airline is better …. In The World Rankings ….
DELTA: Twenty Second.
UNITED: Fifty One.
AMERICAN: Eighty Third.
Even RwandAir, EasyJet and Ryanair beat AMERICAN. While Azerbaijan Airlines, Eurowings and IndiGo topped UNITED. ALSO Air Canada and Saudia kept DELTA down.
Aero, "Even RwandAir, EasyJet and Ryanair beat AMERICAN. While Azerbaijan Airlines, Eurowings and IndiGo topped UNITED. ALSO Air Canada and Saudia kept DELTA down."
Which shows how absurd such rankings are, obviously.
rebel, lol, I am sure that there are those in Azerbaijan who might well disagree with your opinion …. :-)
Aero, after all, didn’t they ‘land’ in Kazakhstan after the Russians shot them down?
Lufthansa got five stars once in 2017 because they PROMISED Allegris and looks like you still believe in the rankings.
Another good click-bait article Ben, we are certainly winding up the natives and adding to your click count, yes?
Delta is overhyped. Flew long haul with them from Shanghai to Detroit and found the restrooms a complete mess. Never again
all that is clear from this discussion is that
1. Ben loves to wind up the base - largely US based loyalists - some of which are airline employees - about once per week. It is consistently people who actually pay to fly multiple products that provide real perspective and note that most of these supposed "superiorities" of one company vs. the other don't matter in real life.
2. DL has 80 aircraft in...
all that is clear from this discussion is that
1. Ben loves to wind up the base - largely US based loyalists - some of which are airline employees - about once per week. It is consistently people who actually pay to fly multiple products that provide real perspective and note that most of these supposed "superiorities" of one company vs. the other don't matter in real life.
2. DL has 80 aircraft in service with Delta One Suites right now. It doesn't matter one hill of beans how great the Adient seat is if UA doesn't have any aircraft in service with it and AA has just a couple which don't even fly routes directly competitive with DL.
3. Multiple people note that seat choice is subjective; Ben and others would do themselves a lot of good if they simply put numbers behind their claims. Amount of space per seat in the cabin, width at the seat, width at the footwell etc.
4. The Delta One Suite has been in service for the better part of a decade; other seats might be better but DL has a major headstart in building a fleet with Suites; when AA and UA pass even half the number of aircraft that DL has w/ suites, then it is time to look at a comparison between existing products but the real comparison is not between AA and UA's new business class product to DL's current D1 product but between the Suite products that a passenger is most likely to be able to fly.
Oh honey, only Tim Dunn would spend the day before Thanksgiving down in some comment section defendin’ Delta’s business class like it’s the Baby Jesus in a manger, while the rest of us are busy flyin’ home or sittin’ in traffic tryna see our 'kin. Tim, sweetheart… do you even have family? Shouldn’t you be in the kitchen bakin’ pies—or better yet, tangled up with your man—instead of writin’ internet dissertations nobody asked for?
Grits,
do tell me you aren't American and getting ready to celebrate THX or have anything better to do w/ your time regardless of your nationality given that you bothered to respond.
I'm not defending anything other than the truth which a number of people that participate in the comments section of this site are deathly afraid of
Sugar, let me remind you: I am American as sweet tea and Sunday potluck, don’t let this salon chair fool you. I’m just sittin’ here gettin’ my wigs washed, fluffed, and prayed over. Meanwhile, you’re over there quiverin’ at the truth, ’cause you know you’re the only one in this whole comment section defendin’ an airline like it’s your long-lost cousin. And honestly, baby… I’m just surprised you’ve got the time. Day before Thanksgiving and...
Sugar, let me remind you: I am American as sweet tea and Sunday potluck, don’t let this salon chair fool you. I’m just sittin’ here gettin’ my wigs washed, fluffed, and prayed over. Meanwhile, you’re over there quiverin’ at the truth, ’cause you know you’re the only one in this whole comment section defendin’ an airline like it’s your long-lost cousin. And honestly, baby… I’m just surprised you’ve got the time. Day before Thanksgiving and all—aren’t you and your man usually off ‘tag-teamin’ your holiday traditions’ at that little… steam-filled establishment y’all like so much?
Gurl ! Bless !
Oh ‘nita honey, only a southern states black woman impersonator would spend the day before Thanksgiving down in some comment section harassing Mr Dunn. Please be advised that I have it on good authority that Mr Dunn, is not discussing Delta’s business class like it’s the Baby Jesus in a manger. The rest of the American ladies might be busy flyin’ home or sittin’ in traffic tryna see their 'kin, while you pollute this website...
Oh ‘nita honey, only a southern states black woman impersonator would spend the day before Thanksgiving down in some comment section harassing Mr Dunn. Please be advised that I have it on good authority that Mr Dunn, is not discussing Delta’s business class like it’s the Baby Jesus in a manger. The rest of the American ladies might be busy flyin’ home or sittin’ in traffic tryna see their 'kin, while you pollute this website by bumping your gums. Mr Tim, is definitely not your sweetheart and yes, I do believe that he does have family, do you? Shouldn’t you be in the kitchen bakin’ pies—or better yet, tangled up with your man—instead of writin’ internet dissertations nobody asked for?
One is not amused by your trolling ’nita …. Xxxx
Oh aerob13a, sweetheart… bless your little imported heart. I can hear the faux–Queen’s English strugglin’ through that keyboard. Now listen, baby: Anita does not ‘harass’ — Anita corrects. If Mr. Dunn is out here preachin’ Delta gospel on the day before Thanksgiving, I’m allowed to offer a lil’ reality check between salon appointments.
And as for me bein’ a ‘southern states Black woman impersonator’ — sugar, I’m as Southern as buttered biscuits and as...
Oh aerob13a, sweetheart… bless your little imported heart. I can hear the faux–Queen’s English strugglin’ through that keyboard. Now listen, baby: Anita does not ‘harass’ — Anita corrects. If Mr. Dunn is out here preachin’ Delta gospel on the day before Thanksgiving, I’m allowed to offer a lil’ reality check between salon appointments.
And as for me bein’ a ‘southern states Black woman impersonator’ — sugar, I’m as Southern as buttered biscuits and as real as the humidity that ruins everyone’s hair but mine. Don’t get it twisted.
You ‘have it on good authority’? Baby, the only authority you have is whatever Google Translate gives you when you’re tryin’ to spell ‘y’all’ correctly. Mr. Tim can have all the family he wants — I’m just wonderin’ why he spends more time defendin’ airlines than spendin’ time with ’em.
And pies? Oh I bake, honey. Mine even have flavor, bless God. As for my man, trust me… he ain’t complainin’. Holiday traditions keep us very busy — none of which require me vanishin’ from the internet to soothe your delicate British sensibilities.
Not amused? Oh sugar, you were entertained enough to write me a full essay. Anita stays booked, busy, and in your thoughts. Now run along and steep yourself a nice cup of relevance. Xoxo
TD says, "DL has 80 aircraft in service with Delta One Suites right now."
Actually, it is 77 and I am not sure if the last two LATAM aircraft are flying yet, so 75?
TD, "The Delta One Suite has been in service for the better part of a decade."
That's the problem. DL takes too long to refurbish interiors. If UA gets 28 789s by the end of next year with the...
TD says, "DL has 80 aircraft in service with Delta One Suites right now."
Actually, it is 77 and I am not sure if the last two LATAM aircraft are flying yet, so 75?
TD, "The Delta One Suite has been in service for the better part of a decade."
That's the problem. DL takes too long to refurbish interiors. If UA gets 28 789s by the end of next year with the new Polaris Suites/Studios they will have as many next-gen interiors in one year as it takes DL to add in three. UA has 141 more 787s on order and will have two compatible premium interiors. Whenever DL gets the 35X (2027 ?) how many different premium interiors with they have? Four? And DL only has 6 339s & 20 35Xs on order. Yikes!
of course you can argue 75 vs. 80 while ignoring that the Delta One Suite has been better than United Polaris for the entire time it has been in service.
and DL will have 80 D1 Suites equipped aircraft by the end of the year or early 2026; they still have 359s to be delivered and the remainder of the ex-Latam 350s will re-enter service.
Unlike UA, DL operates its international fleet w/o a need...
of course you can argue 75 vs. 80 while ignoring that the Delta One Suite has been better than United Polaris for the entire time it has been in service.
and DL will have 80 D1 Suites equipped aircraft by the end of the year or early 2026; they still have 359s to be delivered and the remainder of the ex-Latam 350s will re-enter service.
Unlike UA, DL operates its international fleet w/o a need to present a supposedly consistent product - the way most global airlines do. EK is one of a number of airline that has widebodies that don't have direct aisle business class
and UA's fleet is not consistent no matter how much you want to argue otherwise. 757s are part of UA's international fleet. And AA and DL both use their internationally configured widebodies to compete against UA's HD 777s in domestic configuration.
UA has scrores of aircraft that will have to be retired; CF just wrote an article about the supposed engine parts shortage that UA has.
and, no, DL has no more 339s on order.
When Airbus and Boeing can't deliver new aircraft, get back w/ us - but as usual you brag about all the wrong things while unable to see or respond to the big picture.
TD says, "UA has scrores (sic) of aircraft that will have to be retired."
As does DL. The difference is UA has 7x the wide bodies and 2x the narrow bodies on order at the head of a long backlog line. UA also probably got favorable pricing during Covid.
UA: 1,060 aircraft, (229 WB), 186 WB/482 NB on order (15.5 average fleet age)
DA: 992 aircraft, (178 WB), 26 WB/237 NB on order (14.9...
TD says, "UA has scrores (sic) of aircraft that will have to be retired."
As does DL. The difference is UA has 7x the wide bodies and 2x the narrow bodies on order at the head of a long backlog line. UA also probably got favorable pricing during Covid.
UA: 1,060 aircraft, (229 WB), 186 WB/482 NB on order (15.5 average fleet age)
DA: 992 aircraft, (178 WB), 26 WB/237 NB on order (14.9 average fleet age)
UA: Polaris suites: 9,424, more PP and nearly twice as many EP seats on int'l WBs.
DL: TTL D1 suites: 2,499
This is probably why UA has surpassed DL in CF & FCF even with the elevated growth Capex over the last two or three years.
and trailed in profits and the gap is not closing.
Cash is king and UA passed DL in OCF, FCF & Capex over the last two or three years.
Op Cash Flow/Free CF(Capex) since 1/1/24
UA: 15.7/6.1(9.6)
DL: 14.1/5.4(8.7)
UA added 115 net aircraft to DL's 34 net a/c increase since 1/1/24. Amazing.
UA hoards cash because it doesn't have the lines of credit that DL and WN have.
when covid hit, DL and WN both had $10 billion in lines of credit which they were able to draw down.
DL and WN have far more unencumbered aircraft - and value - than UA -as well.
but you believe whatever data that helps you keep your nose pointed to the air.
DL generates the most profitability among US...
UA hoards cash because it doesn't have the lines of credit that DL and WN have.
when covid hit, DL and WN both had $10 billion in lines of credit which they were able to draw down.
DL and WN have far more unencumbered aircraft - and value - than UA -as well.
but you believe whatever data that helps you keep your nose pointed to the air.
DL generates the most profitability among US airlines and has the highest market cap while WN has the best balance sheet - which puts UA in 2nd place - at best - in any financial metrics that matter.
and for the 77000th time, UA only has a FCF advantage because of the number of underpaid employees it has.
thank you for touting FCF so that I can tout UA's cost advantage that comes off the backs of its frontlineemployes and not cubicle dwellers like yourself.
Cash reserves and cash flow are completely different, and in addition to the cash flow advantage UA now amazingly has $2B less net debt.
Interestingly, UA & DL's OCF, FCF & Capex were almost identical over the last five years, but UA has started pulling away a bit over the past two or three years even with much faster growing fleet. FCF will likely take a dip next year if all the 787s and 80+...
Cash reserves and cash flow are completely different, and in addition to the cash flow advantage UA now amazingly has $2B less net debt.
Interestingly, UA & DL's OCF, FCF & Capex were almost identical over the last five years, but UA has started pulling away a bit over the past two or three years even with much faster growing fleet. FCF will likely take a dip next year if all the 787s and 80+ NBs are actually delivered, but UA is hitting on all cylinders.
The product is also improving steadily. The United Next refurb is 70% done and StarLink is finishing on the 70/76 Seaters and just starting to be installed on mainline. StarLink is a game changer.
Rebel,
it is rather impressive how little TD understands about cash of any kind, it seems.
Timmy, generating the most Free Cash Flow over the last few years means UA has already passed Delta.
only in the confines of the tiny cubicle you two share
look at you hitting the refresh over and over waiting for me ;)
You should go take a finance class. Yes, Tim. Free Cash Flow generation means a lot more today than the accounting decisions either airline made 20 years ago that are reflected in the income statement.
It's rather mind-boggling how ignorant you are for a guy that claims to write financial analysis
Wow, Lil Timmy’s taint must be raw from the financial spanking rebel is giving him
Wait, I thought we realized years ago Timmy has no idea how finances and accounting work IRL or how each chapter is related. It's like he read a few odd sample chapters and thinks he's smarter than a CFA and a CPA, because he listens to earnings call and can read 10-K because it's in English.
So we know he fluff his knowledge, already proven that.
It's more fun to see him update his fluff...
Wait, I thought we realized years ago Timmy has no idea how finances and accounting work IRL or how each chapter is related. It's like he read a few odd sample chapters and thinks he's smarter than a CFA and a CPA, because he listens to earnings call and can read 10-K because it's in English.
So we know he fluff his knowledge, already proven that.
It's more fun to see him update his fluff backed by new quarterly numbers or some bogus interpretation from one single barely related data as an entire narrative of every player in the industry.
Creating an alter ego across the Atlantic that agrees with you doesn't make you less wrong or fluffy.
no, Max, it is amazing how hard you and your cubicle mates work to avoiding admitting that UA's profits so far this year trail DL's - which is an indication of how poorly UA is run compared to DL.
and, you still can't admit that UA's cash flow is as good as it is because of how poorly paid UA employees that actually serve customers and because Boeing can't deliver the products that UA committed...
no, Max, it is amazing how hard you and your cubicle mates work to avoiding admitting that UA's profits so far this year trail DL's - which is an indication of how poorly UA is run compared to DL.
and, you still can't admit that UA's cash flow is as good as it is because of how poorly paid UA employees that actually serve customers and because Boeing can't deliver the products that UA committed to buying from Boeing.
it's stunning how ignorant you are about basic corporate functions.
you'd almost think that UA's whole HDQ went to Trump's school of revisionist reality on Jan 21.
reply to facts, dumbass ;)
Quiet MiniMax!
Quiet FakeEskimo!
Let's all compare IQs - I think I know WHO will come out the HIGHEST (ME!)
I’d like to see this so-called ‘hill of beans’ you speak of, sir. ‘Beans, beans.. the magical fruit…’
On the 763s, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. From what I've seen, DL has positioned / positions these aircraft on secondary routes which IMO, have a very high percentage of leisure travelers. Even the leisure travelers who purchase D1 don't usually pay full fares, so I don't buy the argument of "paying top dollar for a disappointing experience". I'd like to see the fares charged for D1 one these flights...I'd bet...
On the 763s, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. From what I've seen, DL has positioned / positions these aircraft on secondary routes which IMO, have a very high percentage of leisure travelers. Even the leisure travelers who purchase D1 don't usually pay full fares, so I don't buy the argument of "paying top dollar for a disappointing experience". I'd like to see the fares charged for D1 one these flights...I'd bet they don't command the "top dollar".
Most people on this site are probably road warriors of some sort, so they know all the seats out there. My bet is to the average leisure traveler; the seats are fine.
I don't think anyone considers JFK-LAX to be a leisure or secondary route market, but live your dream
DL's current competition on JFK-LAX is predominantly AA's old and tired 321Ts and B6 Mint aircraft with the primary problem being B6 itself.
DL is by far the largest carrier in the JFK-LAX market so the 767 really isn't a hindrance.
Evan's statement is absolutely correct. the incessant trashing of DL's 767 product in business class comes from those that can't admit that DL uses them very effectively to compete in the appropriate markets and...
DL's current competition on JFK-LAX is predominantly AA's old and tired 321Ts and B6 Mint aircraft with the primary problem being B6 itself.
DL is by far the largest carrier in the JFK-LAX market so the 767 really isn't a hindrance.
Evan's statement is absolutely correct. the incessant trashing of DL's 767 product in business class comes from those that can't admit that DL uses them very effectively to compete in the appropriate markets and still come out in a very strong position.
in markets that matter, DL uses other aircraft including its 330s; the 339 product is still better than any product AA and UA offer on competitive routes right now.
"DL uses them very effectively" = "paying top dollar for a disappointing experience"
Top D1 domestic market by every metric = Tim Dunn "Of course Delta uses their worst D1 product on JFK-LAX and they fly it more than others which makes it better".
and they manage to generate the most revenue.
Your beef is w/ the people that DL manages to sell their product to.
You might start w/ the fact that DL gets more corporate revenue than any other US airline and perhaps any other airline in the world.
on a 6 hour flight across the US and to Hawaii - where the majority of 763s are used - the 763 is apparently a competitive product according to people that actually spend money on the route.
"and they manage to generate the most revenue."
It's a curious and funny thing about selling the most seats. It often turns into making the most revenue.
Thanks Capt Obvious
Plane Jane, “live your dream”…LOL.
Someone can rattle off statistics and rationale but, in the end, it's a subjective call. And, in the end, as much as I have issues with AA, I will still opt for AA when flying transcon.
Lee, I am curious, “I will still opt for AA when flying transcon”, your flights are from ? to ?.
This is not a trick question, as I said, I curious that’s all.
When one looks at those airlines which actually provide a seat which deserves the title of ‘Suite’, I can see no such comparison provided by any U.S. carrier, correct Ben?
see Yoloswag's reply a comment below yours.
Yes. AA's seat (though limited in rollout currently) is a suite with a door and Ben ranks it higher.
Max, I hear what you say and thank you for pointing me towards further reading on the subject. However, as I obviously did not express myself clearly enough in my post, I would like to offer some additional clarification.
It is my opinion that there are very few airlines who offer a seat/bed combination which deserves the name “Suite”. For example, I know of SQ, AF and EY who currently offer a seat and...
Max, I hear what you say and thank you for pointing me towards further reading on the subject. However, as I obviously did not express myself clearly enough in my post, I would like to offer some additional clarification.
It is my opinion that there are very few airlines who offer a seat/bed combination which deserves the name “Suite”. For example, I know of SQ, AF and EY who currently offer a seat and separate bed in their ‘suites’. However, only EY actually offers the only true suite to the market (that I can think of). The Residence has a separate sitting area, bedroom and en-suite facilities. A true and literal representation of a suite.
It is my opinion that simply adding a sliding door to a seat/bed does not turn the seat into a suite. Likewise, some airlines are calling a small number of seats “First class” when in reality they are little more than premium economy seats.
I hope this helps?
Ben I'd be curious to know what your assessment is in comparing the latest D1 suites to the latest AA Flagship Suites. Who wins?
His linked article on the best business class seats answers this easily.
Adient Ascent (AA’s seat) is ranked #5. Vantage XL with Door (DL’s seat) is ranked #10.
I've flown both Flagship Suites and D1 Suites this summer, and I thought the Flagship hard product had a more comfortable seat. I also felt more cramped in D1 (possibly due to the staggered configuration).
Soft product, DL edges out AA with the better amenity kit and food (helped that I was flying out of ICN and they offered a pretty good Korean meal).
Not sure where the “330-200s are not getting new seats ” rumor came from. They are also getting new business seats and cabin refreshes.
as far as the every living comment about DL's 763s vs. the competition, the DL 763s flew about 15 TATL roundtrips this past summer.
They competed largely with UA 757s (multiple shorter NYC markets such as KEF, DUB, EDI etc) and to markets like PRG where DL was the only US carrier as well as weaker markets such as to BRU and Switzerland where DL already determined product wasn't a factor.
The UA...
as far as the every living comment about DL's 763s vs. the competition, the DL 763s flew about 15 TATL roundtrips this past summer.
They competed largely with UA 757s (multiple shorter NYC markets such as KEF, DUB, EDI etc) and to markets like PRG where DL was the only US carrier as well as weaker markets such as to BRU and Switzerland where DL already determined product wasn't a factor.
The UA 757 has a markedly weaker business class 2X2 product as on DL's 757s which DL doesn't fly to Europe; DL's KEF service outside of NYC is on standard domestic 757s not much different than UA's MAX service which flies routes much deeper into Europe.
DL and UA are both expected to retire their business class 757s as soon as they get new premium class A321NEOs; UA the 321XLR and DL the 321NEO - which is delayed because of Safran's inability to get the product for DL certified.
Competitively, the Delta One Suites is simply a better product than what AA and UA have on their non-suite equipped aircraft. DL has an 80 aircraft headstart. Polaris is a high density business class product that simply is not as spacious as most of AA's non-suite business class seats.
the remainder of DL's 763 fleet is used on domestic routes including to Hawaii where UA uses domestic configured 777s which are the weakest widebodies in the US fleet from a product standpoint; neither AA or DL have domestic configured widebodies.
DL is still expected to place a 787 order as well as a follow-on order for more MAXs which could allow them to replace the 767 fleet (763s and 4s) earlier than planned.
DL is also considering retiring the 717s early because they are subjected to wing spar inspections every month which adds a lot of maintenance complexity.
Boeing is reportedly offering DL delivery positions for 787s and MAX8s early enough for DL to retire the 763s and 717s as early or earlier than DL planned.
DL knows the strengths and weaknesses of each fleet type and is very good at knowing how to use its fleet where it matters the most.
As much as some try to argue otherwise, the 763 is used where product doesn't matter; AA and UA simply do not have enough airplanes that have new suite products to come anywhere close to competing with the 359 and 339 fleets.
How about the photo of the DL 763 business class seats? It's almost nostalgic with those funny seats and tiny screens. Finding parts for those must be challenging.
I have never said that the DL 763 has a weak business class product esp. compared with the Delta One Suites on the 359 and 339.
But the extent to which DL uses the 763 to Europe is VASTLY overblown - esp. in truly competitive markets given that DL used the 763 which has direct aisle access on multiple routes from JFK where UA used their 757s from EWR and IAD. the 763 was a...
I have never said that the DL 763 has a weak business class product esp. compared with the Delta One Suites on the 359 and 339.
But the extent to which DL uses the 763 to Europe is VASTLY overblown - esp. in truly competitive markets given that DL used the 763 which has direct aisle access on multiple routes from JFK where UA used their 757s from EWR and IAD. the 763 was a competitively better product than what UA offered; that is simply a fact.
and the 763 is a better product than UA's high density domestic 777s.
nostalgic is UA's HD 777 and 757 product
What year do you think Delta installed those 763 business class seats? 20 years ago? They can't be original, can they?
Sorry UA has three times the lie flat seat/beds and a similar advantage in other premium hard products like int'l Premium Plus and Economy Plus.
Total D1 suites: 2,499
TPolaris suites: 9,424
It is surprising that DL has installed so few D1 suites and that it took eight years for only 44% of...
What year do you think Delta installed those 763 business class seats? 20 years ago? They can't be original, can they?
Sorry UA has three times the lie flat seat/beds and a similar advantage in other premium hard products like int'l Premium Plus and Economy Plus.
Total D1 suites: 2,499
TPolaris suites: 9,424
It is surprising that DL has installed so few D1 suites and that it took eight years for only 44% of its wide body fleet. UA installed higher J Polaris, Premium Plus and Economy Plus on 100% of its int'l wide body fleet in six years that included Covid. Customers have been enjoying this superior standardization for almost three years. Impressive to say the least.
Newsflash.
UA is not a charity nor is it the arm of any government.
UA is a for profit business and its execs know that.
The sooner you can explain why UA has not been able to turn its size advantage into a profit advantage, then others can watch a real conversation taking place.
UA generated $1 billion less in net profit through the 3rd quarter - which will likely remain for the entire year...
Newsflash.
UA is not a charity nor is it the arm of any government.
UA is a for profit business and its execs know that.
The sooner you can explain why UA has not been able to turn its size advantage into a profit advantage, then others can watch a real conversation taking place.
UA generated $1 billion less in net profit through the 3rd quarter - which will likely remain for the entire year - even though UA has a substantial labor cost advantage.
As hard as it is for you to grasp, the "math doesn't math" for all of the things that you brag about.
Newsflash.
Tim, more profitably and inferior product is a different topic, one of which is not discussed here. You keep trying to make it the same.
But Tim and his British alter ego acts like this always.
well, no, profitability and a holistic fleetwide assessment of fleet is not a different product.
UA is not a charity and clearly has weaker products whether you want to admit it or not - which you clearly are incapable of doing.
and you and Max are UA cubicle mates since you clearly see the world the same.
UA has surpassed DL on an OCF & FCF basis over the past two or three years even with its elevated growth Capex.
Op Cash Flow/Free CF(Capex) since 1/1/24
UA: 15.7/6.1(9.6)
DL: 14.1/5.4(8.7)
UA added 115 net aircraft to DL's 34 net a/c increase since 1/1/24. Amazing.
Esk, CORRECTION if you please …. I am not British old sock and take exception to being called such by a nobody like you. Ok?
I am a very blue blooded Englishman. Furthermore, to be “Alter” one would have to be small. Please be assured that I could never be described as being small. In point of fact my height prevented me from flying ’fast movers’ for the Royal Air Force.
As for...
Esk, CORRECTION if you please …. I am not British old sock and take exception to being called such by a nobody like you. Ok?
I am a very blue blooded Englishman. Furthermore, to be “Alter” one would have to be small. Please be assured that I could never be described as being small. In point of fact my height prevented me from flying ’fast movers’ for the Royal Air Force.
As for your pathetic jibes about Tim and egos, etc, clearly you have nothing holding your ears apart which could be described as a brain cell, therefore, you can only fallback on the words of others in you conversations.
One has to pity you Esk, clearly your raison d'être is to be nothing more than a second rate proletariat troll. Right bro?
Can we please do more of the ‘Newsflash’ comments. ‘Thank you for your attention to this matter.’ Also, please wear a suit.
Just based on seat/bed comfort Lucky, how do you rate Polaris on a 777 vs D1 on a 359? Widest product for both
Ben has bumped the Polaris seat off of his list of top 10 business class seats, while the D1 seat sits at #10 still.
That's great that DL finished refurbishing the LATAM 359s. Now customers can more easily determine whether their flight has D1 suites. Unfortunately, having only two sub-fleets with them and fewer per aircraft the total number of D1 suites is surprisingly small especially compared to UA which has almost three times as many Polaris suites.
Total D1 suites: 2,499
TPolaris suites: 9,424
I don't believe UA calls Polaris a suite given the lack of a door?
I don't get the deal about doors... I don't really like them but I don't think UA refers to their product as a suite -- but it's certainly a more consistent product on United vs Delta.
I don't get the door thing at all, but UA is adding them to their new Polaris suites/studios that are getting delivered next month and flying in early 2026. The wider Polaris seats are suites in my mind, but point well taken.
The 3x's difference in the totals blows my mind. Marketing is an amazing thing. ;)
So your 3x statistic comparison is pointless because there are no Suite products on UA.
It is fair to say UA has a more consistent widebody product, but you don’t need to make up comparisons that are fake.
if you ignore the UA 757s which fly a whole lot further than DL flies its 2X2 business class 757s, its domestic configured 777s, or its MAXs that fly the Atlantic.
IN other words, UA has a less consistent international product than AA or DL.
Only if you cherrypick and exclude multiple UA fleet types can you come to the conclusion that UA has a consistent international product.
and that doesn't even consider the fact...
if you ignore the UA 757s which fly a whole lot further than DL flies its 2X2 business class 757s, its domestic configured 777s, or its MAXs that fly the Atlantic.
IN other words, UA has a less consistent international product than AA or DL.
Only if you cherrypick and exclude multiple UA fleet types can you come to the conclusion that UA has a consistent international product.
and that doesn't even consider the fact that Polaris is a high density business class product which means less space for every passenger even compared to AA and DL's non-suite business class products.
and in economy, the 767 and 330 offer more space than AA or UA 777s or 787s
calm down, tim.
It's the day before thanksgiving. Go steal some of your "Wife's" pies and just relax. You don't have to spend all day defending a crap and inconsistent Delta J Product. You don't even work there lol
Max, these pies sound delicious! Yum!
"I don't get the door thing at all"
Same. I've also never even HEARD OF someone booking into or away from an airline, based on whether its business seats have doors or not, much less done it, or witnessed it.
Though reading this blog, you'd think "doors" was airlines' top priority, and a matter of national security. ;)
It’s awful! It’s infested with Skyteamness!
"Delta One" is extremely misleading marketing, and a classic example of the halo effect. Delta (and T*m D*nn) want us to believe that the product on the A350 (which is mid now, but was pretty awesome when it debuted almost a decade ago) is what you'll get flying F/J on all its planes.
the A359 D1 "suite" is also the same old 763 seat spruced up a bit... with a door
Plane Jane: Huh, I never thought of it that way, but, I suppose it is basically the 763 ‘space,’ but with far more privacy and better entertainment, so, …really nothing like it. Listen, I wish they’d’ve gone with that JAL did on their a35K, but we can have everything can we?
Huh?
Regarding the A332s. as there are no plans to reconfigure or retrofit them as they're former Northwest aircraft from the 00s, a good trade-off would be to update the displays to a higher definition, USB ports as well as refresh the cushions and covers.
I thought part of the filling from Delta to the DOT also included reconfiguring the A330-200.
I could remember reading that it will maintain similar seat count across all cabins with an updated interior.