Yesterday I wrote about United Airlines’ newly elected pilot union boss, who has quite a record of being controversial. After all of this became public, he has issued a public apology, so let’s recap everything about this situation.
In this post:
United pilots appoint new MEC chair
14,000+ United Airlines pilots belong to the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), with the leadership team being known as the Master Executive Council (MEC). The United MEC has just appointed Chicago-based Boeing 787 captain Neil Swindells as the union’s new leader.
This vote happened suddenly, as United’s previous union boss resigned recently due to a family emergency. The 19-person board of the union was responsible for deciding on the next leader. Swindells won by a nine to eight margin, with two votes not being counted because ballots weren’t properly filled out.
Swindells took to the forums at Airline Pilot Central to introduce himself and share his vision for the union under his leadership. He wrote a great note, and comes across as a composed, caring guy who is looking out for his fellow pilots.
He talks about the importance of unity, returning United’s pilot group to the top of the industry, creating the best airline in the history of aviation, and demanding the professional respect that pilots deserve. Sounds great, right? Keep in mind this is an especially important time for the union, as a new contract is currently being negotiated for pilots.
The darker side of United’s new union boss
Not all pilots are particularly happy about Swindells being appointed as the new union leader, with some accusing him of being a… not great guy. There are all kinds of forums in which pilots participate, and Live and Let’s Fly has some recent screenshots from Swindells’ posts.
To be clear, he posted these under his full name, so this isn’t even being done under the guise of anonymity. These comments only go as far back as 2021, so they’re pretty recent. Where do we even begin?
He seems to have some issues with the LGBT community, or likes using them for cheap shots. For example, when he disagreed with people, he said:
Continuing to get your gay man on today, I see. Brava!
And if my Aunt had a penis she’d by my Uncle!
I’m sure that makes his LGBT colleagues feel great…
When United and Emirates held an event in Washington to celebrate their new codeshare, he wrote the following, as clearly Emirates was “dominating” because the airline had a male pilot, while United “only” had a female pilot:
And I’m sure EMIRATES had NOTHING TO DO with the EMIRATES MALE CAPTAIN being flanked by a UNITED FEMALE FIRST OFFICER, either, right??? EVERY SINGLE OPTIC was DESIGNED with a nod to EMIRATES’ DOMINANCE OF THE CODESHARE, while giving UNITED their desired DEI money shot!!!
I’m sure that makes his female colleagues feel great…
When talking about pilots who were on the “scab list” (those who crossed union lines), Swindells wrote the following:
Fvk them, those fvcking idiots!
Almost threw up when that scab pulled up to his scab house in his scab Corvette. My first thought was “How did that fat fvck even get out of it?” before he walked into his scab house to do a scab interview with a supposed journalist who should have asked him, “Did you think being a scab in a cockpit was going to be all wine and roses, just because you are a fat fvck cAPTAIN?” or maybe “Are you so up your own scab arse that you thought you could steal the food off another man’s table and out of his children’s mouths and he would want to shake your hand be your new best buddy, you scab?”
I hope they all died slow painful deaths of a anal cancer requiring multiple surgeries, and copious amounts of seepage from weeping wounds.
Unions built this profession, the American middle class, and the glory days of the American 20th century after well over a century of death and destruction in the workplace that demanded redress. Union history is replete with the slaughter of workers standing up for their dignity as human beings not corporate slaves.
To watch these cvnts whine about not having their arses kissed in the cockpit and purposely making mistakes to see if they’re caught and corrected, could be the greatest lack of self-awareness ever filmed for TV.
BTW, calling a scab a scab is protected speech, even if you say it right to his face. You are simply stating a fact. Just leave the descriptors out, such as fvcking scab, and it’s not a personal insult, it’s who they CHOSE to be, knocking they were taking money to fvk the guy they now think isn’t being “nice” to them.
Fvck them ALL to Hell!
While I can appreciate that most pilots take issue with their colleagues on the scab list, it’s incredibly immature and cruel to hope someone dies a painful death of “anal cancer requiring multiple surgeries,” and “copious amounts of seepage from weeping wounds.”
This is only a small sampling of the union boss’ recent online postings, though I think that gives us enough of a sense of his online persona…
Swindells apologies for “inappropriate” comments
Following Swindells’ online communications getting more public attention, much of his online presence has been deleted, and the new union boss has issued the following statement:
“I would like to address communications that have surfaced regarding things I posted on a private pilot forum. The language was often colorful, heated, and inappropriate. In retrospect, I wish that I had expressed myself differently.”
“Those words do not represent what I stand for and I apologize to anyone I offended. As I stated in my opening message as MEC Chair, I intend to represent all pilots and am dedicated to bringing you an industry leading contract. We have experienced significant internal turmoil over recent months and it is time for all of us to move forward together.”
So he says that he wishes he had expressed himself differently, and he apologizes to anyone he offended. But that’s it — there’s no further accountability.
My take on this situation
Let me try to be as balanced as possible in sharing my take here:
- There’s no denying that cockpit dynamics are changing over time; pilots hired in the past 10 years are much more diverse than pilots within 10 years of retirement, and that’s something United management in particular has been pushing (obviously this isn’t the case across the board, but it is broadly true)
- The thoughts of the new union leader boss probably reflect the feelings of many pilots, especially those toward the top of the seniority list (again, definitely not all pilots, but not an insignificant number either)
- There aren’t many workplaces where you have people earning $300K+ per year (as a 787 captain at United does, if working a full schedule), yet they can still post like this online without any sort of backlash
- It’s ironic how he talks about making sure pilots “demand the professional respect” that they deserve, but he doesn’t extend that same grace to pilots with opinions that differ from his
- The fundamental issue here is how this guy is choosing to communicate; a leader should be a civil person who can find common ground, not someone who is wishing “anal cancer requiring multiple surgeries” on his colleagues; I’m concerned about the mental state of any 60(ish) year old person who thinks this is an appropriate way to communicate, and to me it draws in more concerns than just his ability to lead a union
- Back in the day it used to be that if you were in a leadership position and were found to be acting this way, you’d resign immediately and would apologize; as much as people love to complain about “cancel culture,” that doesn’t seem to be the case anymore…
Just to be clear, this isn’t about whether unions are good or bad, and it isn’t about unions vs. management. United management is far from perfect, and the ongoing contract negotiations between the two parties has nothing to do with this. At the same time, you’d hope that the person that pilots choose to represent them would be someone who has demonstrated professionalism, respect, unity, and good communication skills.
Bottom line
United Airlines pilots have a controversial new union boss. This guy has posted all kinds of offensive and problematic things online, insulting those who disagree with him in a vulgar way. He has issued a quasi-apology, though in reality he’s really just sorry to those he offended (in other words, he’s not actually sorry).
What do you make of this United pilot union boss situation?
As much as I am completely about freedom of choice when it comes to someone's personal life and what happens in someone's bedroom or which culture someone associates with, I have a question about this diversity hiring strategy, Ben.
Considering the responsibility that a pilot carries on his shoulders as well as the judgement and skill level that is needed to operate a plane safely and react a certain way in critical situations, what's your...
As much as I am completely about freedom of choice when it comes to someone's personal life and what happens in someone's bedroom or which culture someone associates with, I have a question about this diversity hiring strategy, Ben.
Considering the responsibility that a pilot carries on his shoulders as well as the judgement and skill level that is needed to operate a plane safely and react a certain way in critical situations, what's your opinion on hiring based on diversity vs. hiring based on competence? Is political correctness worth playing with peoples lives potentially when better qualified people are skipped because of their skin color or gender? Isn't there a line that has to be drawn?
As a former pilot for United airlines and minority I can confirm that bigotry and racism at UAL is still alive. I was fired last year from UAL for something captain who had a same views as CA Swindel did.
Another minority pilot was recently fired from ual.
A true leader speaks nothing but the truth, and never apologizes for it. Given this guy's apparent inability to temper his emotions I'd question his ability to THINK his way through an emergency.
Ahh...America the great. It is not even a generalization to point out the wealthy, fat, middle-aged, balding, gun loving, patriarchal, gay-hating white man in America. Unfortunately, I am not surprised to see such behavior from another executive from the US, hiding behind the grossly misinterpreted freedom of speech. Ultimately, nothing will happen since more than 50% of the population applauds such people.
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Dan777 Guest
December 22, 2022, 11:11 pm
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Sam Guest
December 26, 2022, 12:13 am
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1 more replyOn the contrary that’s literally a bunch of generalizations, you just as full of prejudiced hate and disgust as this bigot…. or do you judge people individually without prejudice, if so your post displays the opposite.
I don't think they are generalizations. The above description is literally that of the privileged white American male. Having lived and worked in the US for a decade, I reckon @Kent's assessment is bang on, barring the rare exception. The truth about the average US male should offend you, because it's sad. May I also add "sexist" to the adjectives 'cause it's amazing how many in the Midwest especially think that women are only good for bedding and raising children.
Good riddance Neil. You’re a stain on every professional United pilot.
The aforementioned “immature and cruel” description of Union boss Swindell is aptly put and all you need to know about his character.
Does “scan, meán “still collecting all benefits?”
As a retired United captain and ALPA member, I hope the pilot group has the collective wisdom to show Captain Swindells the door. ALPA has a Code of Ethics . This man dishonors it.
Disgraceful comments regardless whether he is a pilot or not. Everyone is accountable for their comments and this guy should be held accountable. The United MEC should be ashamed of themselves for even considering a single vote for him. He is an ignorant chairman of the professional pilots he now has responsibility to represent.
Was the voting process of Swindell fair just, transparent, and by the letter of the existing rules, or was the process RIGGED? Bullying will get you 2nd place these and future days. My experience with pilots is that some are adult children, entitled cowboys, and "fashionistas of clothes off the sales rack."
I am saddened that people like this guy can make it up the ranks. I am all for free speech , one of the biggest advocates of it…. But when you execute your right to free speech , you may be protected by the law but not the court of public opinion.
@ SMR
But the court of public opinion doesn't determine appointment of the executive committee members or their executive positions - an internal organisational democratic selection model does.
Do you want public outrage to determine such?!
On the other hand, travel bloggers (and others) are obliged to report events in context and accurately and fairly by various instruments ranging from journalistic ethics to slander laws.
The article herein is best viewed as an opinion piece...
@ SMR
But the court of public opinion doesn't determine appointment of the executive committee members or their executive positions - an internal organisational democratic selection model does.
Do you want public outrage to determine such?!
On the other hand, travel bloggers (and others) are obliged to report events in context and accurately and fairly by various instruments ranging from journalistic ethics to slander laws.
The article herein is best viewed as an opinion piece mightily pitched with the authors perceived bias.
Yet, it doesn't go as far as another blogger who (arrogantly) demands a resignation ignoring he due process adopted by the organisation in question!
The irony is the most upvoted commentator herein has posted vile anti gay slurs on this very thread.
He should resign. But he won't. Too bug an ego.
He did resign…..so much for your insightful contribution.
How have you ascertained that its the actually person we are that won the election instead of a someone using his name?
Perhaps the question should be to the union leader, “specifically, what quotes are you apologizing for?”.
This guy is still employed. If I talked to a coworker like that where I worked I would be terminated! Sad
Excuse me but "Those words do not represent what I stand for and I apologize to anyone I offended." is about the weakest form of an apology. You say " I made a mistake and I apologize for that"
The problem of unions in America is most of the time is blue collar trying to be a politician, aka not your profession. These people barely knows how to play politics.
Most pilots are not trained on in an environment to lie, cheat, steal, bully, or racketeer.
It's like little Greta with the ideology before her parents got the windfall.
That's why actors or actresses thrive in politics and can even twist a royal...
The problem of unions in America is most of the time is blue collar trying to be a politician, aka not your profession. These people barely knows how to play politics.
Most pilots are not trained on in an environment to lie, cheat, steal, bully, or racketeer.
It's like little Greta with the ideology before her parents got the windfall.
That's why actors or actresses thrive in politics and can even twist a royal family up side down.
That's why a comedian puppet can convince innocents to die(fight) for his personal (national freedom) cause, but Elon Musk can't convince liberals to run Twitter.
That's why Jimmy Hoffa was a strong union leader but probably never drove trucks.
ALPA should hire a professional politician or actors not wannabe pilots.
Oh i feel so "SCHWINDELIG" . . . (dizzy)
.... just by seeing his name and his way of saying things in a way that he grew up in.
Tells a lot!
UA Pilot Union, GREAT job, getting Neil Swindells a position in a way, where he has a VERY strong oppinion about his employer!
Oh wow!
"There aren’t many workplaces where you have people earning $300K+ per year (as a 787 captain at United does, if working a full schedule), yet they can still post like this online without any sort of backlash"
This is because there aren't many professions where people making $300k+ per year are unionized. Complete lack of accountability for actions is a hallmark of unions, at least as long as the union leadership likes you. The unions...
"There aren’t many workplaces where you have people earning $300K+ per year (as a 787 captain at United does, if working a full schedule), yet they can still post like this online without any sort of backlash"
This is because there aren't many professions where people making $300k+ per year are unionized. Complete lack of accountability for actions is a hallmark of unions, at least as long as the union leadership likes you. The unions are also a huge part of why police are frequently able to get away with abhorrent, criminal behavior. The only thing unions ever want any employees to be punished for is perceived disloyalty to the union and its leadership (as this jerk also so colorfully described.)
Complaining about "diversity hires" not being merit-based is laughable.
Good ole' boys "walking in" resumes has been the affirmative action for white men for generations.
If we look back at pilots hired 20+ years ago the majority were former military. Given the rules of the day in the US military regarding front-line soldiers/sailors/pilots it's not surprising that they were overwhelmingly male. Now that more pilots are coming to the profession not from the military but from the private educational sector we're starting to see more gender diversity, though new pilots still skew overwhelmingly to those from middle-class or higher economic...
If we look back at pilots hired 20+ years ago the majority were former military. Given the rules of the day in the US military regarding front-line soldiers/sailors/pilots it's not surprising that they were overwhelmingly male. Now that more pilots are coming to the profession not from the military but from the private educational sector we're starting to see more gender diversity, though new pilots still skew overwhelmingly to those from middle-class or higher economic backgrounds given the cost of education relative to the extremely low wages earned early in a pilot's career.
The comments posted by him are the tip of the iceberg on that forum. I was always appalled with his comments via that private forum. He is a stain on the profession and a horrible choice to as MEC Chairman. I love United Airlines and he absolutely does not represent the over 15,000 fine professionals that pilot United Aircraft.
He sounds like a 'hot head'......people like him have been around awhile .......I was born and raised in Brooklyn ,New York.......'sticks and stones' still applies here......it's not good to be thin skinned ,either.......
His apology sounds as much as "I'm sorry I got caught" as much as I'm changing my ways.
Many of these statements that he posted online were not supposedly in public forums but in private, non-public forums for United pilots. It is hard to understand how anyone thought this way, let alone wrote it anytime in at least 20 years - but to somehow argue that he doesn't have the professional skills to pilot...
His apology sounds as much as "I'm sorry I got caught" as much as I'm changing my ways.
Many of these statements that he posted online were not supposedly in public forums but in private, non-public forums for United pilots. It is hard to understand how anyone thought this way, let alone wrote it anytime in at least 20 years - but to somehow argue that he doesn't have the professional skills to pilot an aircraft is simply detached from reality. The two are NOT linked and there simply is no objective way to argue that they are.
UAL's MEC was aware of these statements before they voted for him - according to publicly accessible sites. There are very few high quality, spotless people that are willing to step into public leadership of any kind - and it is precisely because none of us don't have some dirt that someone could dig up if they wanted to.
And let's keep in mind that the vast majority of United pilots want economic gains and cleaned house because of the poor contract that the former MEC Chairman and the rest sent out for a vote.
It is up to United's pilots to sort this out themselves and for the rest of us to hope they and the company can move forward with the objectives both have including aggressive growth - which is very much jeopardized by having a sub-standard pilot contract while even the LCCs and ULCCs are managing to get new AIPs with their pilot groups. Scott Kirby said months ago that United would be first with a new pilot contract and would pull all of the growth pilots in the industry to United. Given the developments at United's pilot MEC, Kirby has achieved neither goal and UAL has to be uncompetitive as a destination for new pilots.
Union thug. Nothing special or surprising there.
Sam is dead wrong.
The pilots unions are Democrat….have been for generations. These spoiled, coddled brats always whine about respect, professionalism. They are generally thugs and extortion artists…
Fifty years of working with these guys makes me pray for the pilotless cockpit.
D
You might be kidding, or not, but it’s coming. It’s coming sooner than even many of us could have anticipated. My thoughts were exactly the same as yours as of last night. Enjoy your new contracts you guys, hefty and all, because it’ll probably be your last!!!
Who cares what you think? You didn’t have thieving CEOs rape your pension fund while ensuring they got bankruptcy proof Golden Parachutes, and bonuses. I think he’s great and should run for President.
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Gull Air Guest
December 21, 2022, 1:58 pm
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henare Diamond
December 21, 2022, 6:44 pm
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1 more replyBeen there, done that. Lost re-election.
Are you saying that you haven't saved for retirement like the rest of us are expected to do? (You know, on top of those six figure salaries...)
The cockpits of 2022 are still very much in line with the politics of Qatar 2022. It's not a safe space for anyone who isn't a white cis-gendered male. It's come a long way, but this guy is still the norm when it comes to flight deck mentality.
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Ahmed Guest
December 21, 2022, 11:17 am
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Dan777 Guest
December 22, 2022, 11:20 pm
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SosongBlue Guest
December 23, 2022, 8:34 am
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2 more repliesDo you fly for United? How do you know this?
That actually pretty far from the truth nowadays, guess ur not at an airline currently!
Politics of Qatar? Dominated by white cos gendered males? You think “whites” are in charge of Qatar? Go call a gulf Arab white and see what they say!
This really makes me question ever getting in a United flight again. If this guy is posting things highlighted in the article above I strongly question his judgment and ability to make sound decisions. I think I’ll just stay away from UAL.
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Chris Guest
December 21, 2022, 8:40 am
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Ben Schlappig OMAAT
December 21, 2022, 9:48 am
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1 more replyIf you think you're going to get any different on another airline, you're misguided at best.
@ Bryan Gambogi -- Yeah, I hate to say it, but unfortunately this is the standard at many airlines. I've seen much worse posted online by pilots at other airlines (though admittedly they weren't voted to run the union).
@ Lucky
Just how does this article fit the goal of this website:
"OMAAT brings you the latest travel news, reviews, and strategies to maximize elite travel status. Earn more miles, points, and rewards with today’s top credit card offers."
C'mon, buddy, don't go down the drain like certain other travel blogs...
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Chris Guest
December 21, 2022, 8:41 am
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Ben Schlappig OMAAT
December 21, 2022, 9:52 am
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platy Guest
December 21, 2022, 8:11 pm
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2 more repliesI'd say with already 65 comments on the article, you're in the minority on what people want to engage with.
@ platy -- I appreciate the feedback, and hear where you're coming from. I'd like to think that what makes OMAAT unique is that it's mostly just me writing, and I can write about what interests me, even if it's tangentially related to the core focus of the blog. What keeps me passionate and going day-to-day is the amount of freedom I have to write about what interests me.
Will everyone find everything I write...
@ platy -- I appreciate the feedback, and hear where you're coming from. I'd like to think that what makes OMAAT unique is that it's mostly just me writing, and I can write about what interests me, even if it's tangentially related to the core focus of the blog. What keeps me passionate and going day-to-day is the amount of freedom I have to write about what interests me.
Will everyone find everything I write interesting? Absolutely not. But I find readers have also come to know me, and presumably many people who stick around to read in the long-run find similar topics interesting.
As a kid I wanted to be an airline pilot, so I still have a lot of interest in the career. This is no different than how I recently wrote about Cathay Pacific closing pilot crew bases, or the new generation of young mainline pilots. Do any of these topics really matter to passengers? No. But I find them interesting, and I know many end up enjoying them as well.
So I'll keep what you say in mind, but hopefully that sheds some light on where I'm coming from.
@ Lucky
Many thanks for taking the time to clarify your position.
It is only my opinion, but I personally regard OMAAT as the best travel blog for frequent travellers. A job well done!
That it does centre on your personal voice and such real-world lived travel experience are two of its strengths.
And yes, you are absolutely at liberty to write about whatever you want. It's your blog, your choice, your identity, your points...
@ Lucky
Many thanks for taking the time to clarify your position.
It is only my opinion, but I personally regard OMAAT as the best travel blog for frequent travellers. A job well done!
That it does centre on your personal voice and such real-world lived travel experience are two of its strengths.
And yes, you are absolutely at liberty to write about whatever you want. It's your blog, your choice, your identity, your points of differentiation to other travel blogs.
For clarity, I don't expect to find every article of relevance or interest, and diversity of topic can be a strength when accommodating a range of readers.
And yes, some readers (like myself) also have a general interest in aviation.
That said, IMHO it would be disappointing if there was shift away from the core themes, sufficiently, for example, to emulate certain other travel blogs that apparently seek necessarily controversial topics to stir up the readership.
I am only one reader, but I would encourage you not to go down that route.
In support of that position I refer you to the rather ironic reality that the two most popular posts responding to your article are by a commentator who has also posted vile anti-gay comments - the very behaviour you find fault with in the MEC Chair you are encouraging and tolerating on your very own travel blog.
Similarly I was recently told to go get cancer by a commentator on another travel blog. Apparently, you find such comments very offensive when written by the MEC Chair - why choose topics that you can reasonably anticipate will encourage that sort of commentary in your readers?
Only my personal opinion...all the best for the festive season to you and your family....;)
Bring Jesus Christ back into our courts, schools ,& work places. THEN, & ONLY THEN will good change happen. Do diligent background ✔ 's.
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platy Guest
December 21, 2022, 4:34 am
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That1guy Guest
December 21, 2022, 11:20 am
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AGrumpyOldMan_GA Diamond
December 21, 2022, 1:09 pm
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platy Guest
December 21, 2022, 7:28 pm
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platy Guest
December 21, 2022, 7:06 pm
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henare Diamond
December 21, 2022, 6:42 pm
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5 more repliesNo. Sack anybody who harbours delusional beliefs about mythical deities. I want pilots flying my aircraft who are rational, evidence based and analytical people, not faith based dolts.
So, 15 minutes later you point out "or is it case of freedom of speech only when you agree with the proponent..." immediately after saying fire people that you disagree with. All while making the incorrect assumption that someone who believes in God is not also a rational and evidence based individual. You are highly misinformed about the education level and skills you require of your pilots who also believe in God, and I suspect...
So, 15 minutes later you point out "or is it case of freedom of speech only when you agree with the proponent..." immediately after saying fire people that you disagree with. All while making the incorrect assumption that someone who believes in God is not also a rational and evidence based individual. You are highly misinformed about the education level and skills you require of your pilots who also believe in God, and I suspect you are not aware how many pilots flying your planes do. As an example, I have 3 degrees, physics, aviation, and graduate science degree. I've been successfully flying jets around the world for 20 years, which requires the analytical personality you say I can't have because I believe God exists. Strangely, to you, I believe that BECAUSE of my evidence based rational thought process. I'm flying half a million pounds across the world tonight with 2 other God believing guys. Together we have over 80 years of analytically and rationally flying planes at the same time as believing theres a God. Wierd that those 2 things arent as exclusive as you present. In summary, we're more present, educated, and rational than you suppose. So the question is: do you support people different than yourself as you sarcastically encourage others to? Doesn't sound like it.
People like platy probably don't know any true Christians and instead believe the mythical carcitures pushed by those with an anti-Christian starting point. I agree with your wholeheartedly agree that one "believes that BECAUSE of [an] evidence based rational thought process" because there is a lot of evidence for God and Jesus Christ one actually openly considers it.
@ AGrumpyOldMan_GA
My friend, you are at liberty to believe in whatever you want....but....
"People like platy probably don't know any true Christians"
...your argument is self serving if you only recognise Christians who you personally deem to be "true" (whatever that means)...what meets the grade, mate, does somebody have to be protestant or catholic, a church goer or not, evangelical or not, etc.
Would you discount my wife's faith because she isn't a regular...
@ AGrumpyOldMan_GA
My friend, you are at liberty to believe in whatever you want....but....
"People like platy probably don't know any true Christians"
...your argument is self serving if you only recognise Christians who you personally deem to be "true" (whatever that means)...what meets the grade, mate, does somebody have to be protestant or catholic, a church goer or not, evangelical or not, etc.
Would you discount my wife's faith because she isn't a regular church goer?
Would you discount my friend's faith because he is a Catholic (a priest who runs the seminary program in a state capital city)?
Etc...
"one "believes that BECAUSE of [an] evidence based rational thought process" because there is a lot of evidence for God and Jesus Christ one actually openly considers it."
No doubt you'll mould the "evidence" to fit whatever you deem to be "true" Christianity. Rational and evidenced based it is not - don't kid yourself.
And what about the original statement by @ MEW - do you support the demand therein?
Be well - all best wishes for the festive season.
@ That1guy
Well, mate, your ranting reply proves my point.
For clarity (since your mind has been triggered into a faith-based emotional outburst blinding you to the logic and humour of my post), my post was a mirror to the inane post by @ MEW demanding "god" in courts, schools and workplaces.
"So, 15 minutes later you point out "or is it case of freedom of speech only when you agree with the proponent..."...
@ That1guy
Well, mate, your ranting reply proves my point.
For clarity (since your mind has been triggered into a faith-based emotional outburst blinding you to the logic and humour of my post), my post was a mirror to the inane post by @ MEW demanding "god" in courts, schools and workplaces.
"So, 15 minutes later you point out "or is it case of freedom of speech only when you agree with the proponent..." immediately after saying fire people that you disagree with"
It was a mirror to the original comment to demonstrate the absurdity of the original comment - but too smart for you, evidently - notwithstanding your degrees and pilot training.
You exhibit your bias by accepting the original comment demanding god in courts, schools and workplaces, and acting histrionically when the reverse is countered.
"All while making the incorrect assumption that someone who believes in God is not also a rational and evidence based individual."
A belief in a delusional deity proves in itself that you have limited rational and evidence based capacity. one has to assume that if you pass your pilot checks you have been deemed fit and competent by your employer.
"You are highly misinformed about the education level and skills you require of your pilots"
It is true that I have no pilot training. On the other hand I have read the flight training manual (basic level) and worked in airport operations developing safety programs working alongside most experienced fight instructors (airline and air force) and the lead air crash investigator of my country at that time.
"who also believe in God, and I suspect you are not aware how many pilots flying your planes do."
As a starting assumption, I expect the distribution of religious beliefs in the general population to be an estimator of that in the subpopulation trained as pilots. And that's a scary prospect - 40% plus creationists! That would be mental.
"As an example, I have 3 degrees, physics, aviation, and graduate science degree."
Well done. Good for you.
"I've been successfully flying jets around the world for 20 years"
A most excellent career. Congratulations.
"which requires the analytical personality you say I can't have because I believe God exists."
No, I didn't question your personality. I countered a statement that god should be in courts, schools and workplaces.
Do you agree with the original post or not?
You seem to be arguing that you can be both sufficiently rational to pilot an aircraft and nurture your god delusion at the same time. If we accept the argument that the two are separable, then you must find fault with the original post (like I do).
"Strangely, to you, I believe that BECAUSE of my evidence based rational thought process."
And that, I guess, also proves my suspicion that your capacity for evidence based rational thought process is indeed limited. That you believe that your belief is rationally based is irrational. It's a belief- you even call it your belief.
"I'm flying half a million pounds across the world tonight with 2 other God believing guys. Together we have over 80 years of analytically and rationally flying planes at the same time as believing theres a God."
Well then, remember not to light the fourth candle on board the aircraft (or whatever archaic practice you like to indulge).
"In summary, we're more present, educated, and rational than you suppose"
Actually, the more you write, the more scary it gets.
"So the question is: do you support people different than yourself as you sarcastically encourage others to? Doesn't sound like it."
Why aren't you asking the original poster @ MEW that question? You are exhibiting your faith-based hypocrisy.
For the record, (since you asked) I support personal freedoms to the extent that they don't mess with other people (aka denial of women's rights, denigration of race, sexual orientation and gender identity, religion institutional protection of kiddy fiddlers, inflicting religious beliefs on others)- hence my (ironic) response to @ MEW who demanded religion in judicial, educational and workplace settings.
Are you able to process this response logically and grasp what I'm saying - or are you going to lapse back into your faith-based hysteria?
Lol. Letting mythology into workplaces is *sure* to guarantee success! /s
As a UAL pilot, let me assure you:
1. We are embarrassed by this individual’s comments. This IS NOT how ANY United pilots I’ve ever flown with, or interacted with, have ever come across in the workplace. Of course I cannot speak to their personal/private personna.
2. Every union has politics. Right now, we are going through a bit of house cleaning for many of our union representatives. In our case, we elect...
As a UAL pilot, let me assure you:
1. We are embarrassed by this individual’s comments. This IS NOT how ANY United pilots I’ve ever flown with, or interacted with, have ever come across in the workplace. Of course I cannot speak to their personal/private personna.
2. Every union has politics. Right now, we are going through a bit of house cleaning for many of our union representatives. In our case, we elect local officers and (among other duties/responsibilities), they vote for the “union boss” as it’s being referred to (MEC Chairman). The 14,000 United pilots DID NOT directly vote for this MEC Chairman or any previously elected MEC Chairman, the local officers did this. This person was elected by about 20 “union officers”, it was a narrowly decided election. The other 13,980 United pilots didn’t really have a say and certainly not a vote. We are handling it internally and am confident he will not have the title much longer. We don’t understand either how this person was not vetted.
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platy Guest
December 21, 2022, 4:47 am
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Naughteous Maximus Guest
December 21, 2022, 11:24 am
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platy Guest
December 21, 2022, 7:14 pm
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2 more repliesBut the rank and file members do vote for those who represent them on the MEC, yes or no?
Did this dude's two predecessors make headway in employment contract negotiations over the last four years?
Shall we go and look at some of the social media accounts of a sample of UA pilots and see what we can find?
Do the professional blogs encourage or discourage unfettered discourse? (or is it case of freedom...
But the rank and file members do vote for those who represent them on the MEC, yes or no?
Did this dude's two predecessors make headway in employment contract negotiations over the last four years?
Shall we go and look at some of the social media accounts of a sample of UA pilots and see what we can find?
Do the professional blogs encourage or discourage unfettered discourse? (or is it case of freedom of speech only when you agree with the proponent)?
If the new Chair gets an excellent negotiated employment contract, will you all still be spitting chips?!
I dunno know - you tell us...
If you re-read the post you were responding to, you'll find that he explained that the local members (line pilots) do NOT elect the President or other Executive Officers. Line pilots elect the Local Reps. The Local Reps elect the Executive Officers.
@ Naughteous Maximus
Yes, you are entirely correct according to the information on the United MEC website.
But the point is that those committee members have actually been duly elected by the members and represent the interests of the local branches (local geographical areas). That is the "democratic" model in play. When it serves up an executive member that somebody doesn't like, then they merrily go find fault with that model.
I await answers to...
@ Naughteous Maximus
Yes, you are entirely correct according to the information on the United MEC website.
But the point is that those committee members have actually been duly elected by the members and represent the interests of the local branches (local geographical areas). That is the "democratic" model in play. When it serves up an executive member that somebody doesn't like, then they merrily go find fault with that model.
I await answers to my question from @ UAL First Officer so we can all broaden our appreciation of this story.
Thirty five years as a union pilot (ALPA) with a major airline, never heard that type of language from ANY union official talk that way. He obviously feels entitled to behave that way, especially being the union honcho on the property. National ALPA should try start a movement to remove this guy from his union position and allow the pilots at United to vote him out.
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Winston Cornwall Guest
December 21, 2022, 9:49 am
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Dan777 Guest
December 23, 2022, 9:06 am
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1 more replyIf you have been a working pilot for 35 years and not heard these types of opinions expressed you are either deaf or not telling the truth.
I say the man is entitled to his opinions, however objectionable they may be to the Maoist brigades on this site.
Let him and his thuggish union further hold hostage United and the industry. Technology will eventually end their free ride.
Cockpit of 35 years ago is very different from today….In 20 yrs of professional flying I can count on one hand the type of vile nastiness on this level. Twice I involved ALPA pro standards to help remedy the problem. It’s evident you have a deep seated hatred towards us men and women in the cockpit based on your previous experience. I’d venture to say that was a toxic culture that your airline tolerated and...
Cockpit of 35 years ago is very different from today….In 20 yrs of professional flying I can count on one hand the type of vile nastiness on this level. Twice I involved ALPA pro standards to help remedy the problem. It’s evident you have a deep seated hatred towards us men and women in the cockpit based on your previous experience. I’d venture to say that was a toxic culture that your airline tolerated and let fester, that would be unforgivable at mine. Don’t paint all of us with your broad and outdated brush!
300,000 per year...hmmm
Really not much...that is 787...started let's started flying very young, paid for flight time, liscense after liscense, payed for school. Didn't jump rt into 787, Capt. Worked many years, many ,many years. Finally get Capt. Bash someone making that kinda money. I pat him and everyone of those guys/gals or whatever pronoun what's to use. Now their is other pilots get alot of trainning via silver spoon, military trainning and years...
300,000 per year...hmmm
Really not much...that is 787...started let's started flying very young, paid for flight time, liscense after liscense, payed for school. Didn't jump rt into 787, Capt. Worked many years, many ,many years. Finally get Capt. Bash someone making that kinda money. I pat him and everyone of those guys/gals or whatever pronoun what's to use. Now their is other pilots get alot of trainning via silver spoon, military trainning and years of service. All deserve their pay.
Really wish writers would write more deeply if their going to use numbers to make a point.
And use other like 737, Airbus, ect...value of Captains. The test pilots which I've met, got the best job.
And this is wild, if this is texts, but dang look at our past Presidents, texts, new laws, new wall;coughing. Don't worry about pilots in the future. Another 100 years, be one person or AI robot who have some citizenship to be human in some way, will me a monitor of the planes controls and computer systems.
Wave after wave society waves will hit the land.
Merry Chirstmas and Happy New Year.
@ Clinton
Yep - the test pilots I've personally met didn't come across as folk who would have the time of day for most of the commentators and the incited ignorance on this blog, both airline workers, and pilots herein, and various armchair commentators...;)
If only you could see the private airline pilot forums/groups. What he says is surely offensive, but I somewhat like the fact that pilots can be crass and awful. The ability to be direct is a luxury not afforded to those who have to uphold the cognitive dissonance of office politics, and there's definitely a certain assertiveness to in-person interactions among crew members that I haven't seen elsewhere. It's interesting to have the opportunity to...
If only you could see the private airline pilot forums/groups. What he says is surely offensive, but I somewhat like the fact that pilots can be crass and awful. The ability to be direct is a luxury not afforded to those who have to uphold the cognitive dissonance of office politics, and there's definitely a certain assertiveness to in-person interactions among crew members that I haven't seen elsewhere. It's interesting to have the opportunity to interact with so many people like him and see that, in a job where we interact with people of all races, nationalities, and sexual orientations, when it comes down to it, even guys like him get along with everyone just fine. If only people could see the unlikely relationships that exist between some of these uber conservative pilots and other crew members/airport workers. Also, rather than cower in offense, the targets of comments like his tend to poke right back.
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Winston Cornwall Guest
December 21, 2022, 9:58 am
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P Blanch Guest
December 22, 2022, 10:12 am
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UALflyr Guest
December 21, 2022, 3:15 pm
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2 more repliesI am even more Libertarian than LEN, but I have to correct his pathetic smear of Republicans…….this guy and the pilots unions are Democrats. His union has endorsed Dems for Pres. for generations. They know their extortion game would not work in a free economy.
Sorry Winston, to assume that ALL pilots are democrats is completely off base. Sure they are union members and the union as whole support democrats but that’s a pretty wide brush. When I was there I was constantly amazed at the number of republicans I ran into. I would venture a guess that half are republicans.
Len nailed it.
Irony here is that NS is about as far from a Republican as it gets...
I am retired from United. I didn't like Swindells. BUT I do agree with him on the posts you copied. United is all about optics. Check EVERY ad out there, nothing but minorities, it is a slap to the majority of pilots. And don't get me going on a scab..
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Chris Guest
December 21, 2022, 8:48 am
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1 more replyWhite male pilots hate it when "others" encroach on their flying clubs.
CHRIS, the information available in no way shows that white male pilots are racist. This guy may make fun of gays…..and not like gals in the cockpit, but leaping to the race issue is unsupported.
United’s desperation to use affirmative action to get more gals and minorities in the cockpit……commenced when they hired a Democrat Obama appointee to run the show (even tho he is not CEO),
Hiring strictly by tech. merit and experience...
CHRIS, the information available in no way shows that white male pilots are racist. This guy may make fun of gays…..and not like gals in the cockpit, but leaping to the race issue is unsupported.
United’s desperation to use affirmative action to get more gals and minorities in the cockpit……commenced when they hired a Democrat Obama appointee to run the show (even tho he is not CEO),
Hiring strictly by tech. merit and experience is something working pilots, as a group, may rightly resent.
Without pilot unity, there will be no new contract worthy of a vote. Company laughing all the way to the bank.
Do you mean the bank or do you mean bankruptcy? United’s woke management and debt will surely lead to financial catastrophe.
Ahhhhh I see "ManCityFan" is now UA's MEC Chairman. Based on these comments I see nothing has changed from his message board rantings in the late-90's. A true piece of work. Enjoy choking the golden goose, United pilots!
...unless the gamble works and those pilots get a great pay deal???
LOL shades of Rick Dubinsky! Can the "The Summer From Hell: The Sequel" be far behind?!?! Dubinsky nearly single-handedly destroyed pre-merger United and it took nearly 20 years to recover. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose!
I'm not defending the guy.....But he mentioned Emirates having a more dominate stance in the presentation based on Rank of the Pilot. Emirates had a Captain there - whilst UAL had a First Officer. You are assuming he was referring to the gender as the reason, but that is a presumptuous conclusion. As far as his other off color jokes or whatever you call that. Yes, that is a bygone era and sad that he...
I'm not defending the guy.....But he mentioned Emirates having a more dominate stance in the presentation based on Rank of the Pilot. Emirates had a Captain there - whilst UAL had a First Officer. You are assuming he was referring to the gender as the reason, but that is a presumptuous conclusion. As far as his other off color jokes or whatever you call that. Yes, that is a bygone era and sad that he would talk like that. The Union may lose some negotiating horsepower because now his job is at risk for statements like that.
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Chris Guest
December 21, 2022, 8:50 am
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5 more repliesHis post literally says "MALE" and "FEMALE". There's simply no other reason to put that in there.
@ Danford Collins -- Yeah, sorry, but there are no assumptions here. He wrote "MALE" and "FEMALE" in caps, and then mentioned "DEI" (diversity, equity, and inclusion). Can you really make a good faith argument that this isn't about gender?
How are women and men held in Middle Eastern society, we are talking about Emirates here? So, you tell me, how would a power balance be perceived in UAE when they see the Emirates male CAPT and United female FO?
@ BC -- That's really nuanced. The average person seeing this ad wouldn't know the difference between three stripes and four stripes.
@ Lucky
It's ironic that your presuming sexism on the part of this guy who you are determined to trash without balance in your bias, when it could equally well be the case that he is poking at the inequality between the stage managed photo shoot as depicted between United and Emirates. Captain dominant to First Officer. Man dominant to Woman (in UAE culture). Male pilot dominant to female pilot (in relative numbers with only...
@ Lucky
It's ironic that your presuming sexism on the part of this guy who you are determined to trash without balance in your bias, when it could equally well be the case that he is poking at the inequality between the stage managed photo shoot as depicted between United and Emirates. Captain dominant to First Officer. Man dominant to Woman (in UAE culture). Male pilot dominant to female pilot (in relative numbers with only about 6% female pilots globally). He ain't responsible for the cabin / first officer dynamic. He ain't responsible for the cultural perceptions of dominance and he ain't responsible for the low proportion of female pilots in the industry (but may now be in a position to advocate for more equitable workplace).
Meanwhile gay folk get trashed by the most popular commentator on this very article. Go figure out the hypocrisy of your position and ponder how choice of article can plunge the debate down into the rabbit hole.
@Ben I used to work at EK and I guarantee you that’s EXACTY as EK’s Mgt and PR department took this as (if not actively insisted on) for precisely the reasons stated. No nuance about it.
It doesn't surprise me that he was elected. Around two-thirds to three-quarters of white male airline pilots in the USA are ardent Trump supporters. This is not an easy time for them, and one can expect them to point fingers at everyone but themselves.
Your “facts” are ludicrously inaccurate. The pilots union in question endorsed Biden and Hilary before him.
Mr. Latte…..proof please! Or stop spreading your nonsense.
Bad judgment out of the cockpit, bad judgment in the cockpit!
The modern Woke world is just punishment for people who believe (or support, or enjoy) what Swindells wrote.
Captain Swindells’ opinions in no way represent most of the pilots I work with. Or even a small minority.
Your gratuitous swipe at “senior” pilots is ignorant and totally ageist. To paint all senior pilots as having the same disgusting opinion as Swindells belies some abhorrent bias you possess against older pilots. I wonder why you do?
I’m glad Swindells’ forum posts are getting him dragged in public. But for you to twist his...
Captain Swindells’ opinions in no way represent most of the pilots I work with. Or even a small minority.
Your gratuitous swipe at “senior” pilots is ignorant and totally ageist. To paint all senior pilots as having the same disgusting opinion as Swindells belies some abhorrent bias you possess against older pilots. I wonder why you do?
I’m glad Swindells’ forum posts are getting him dragged in public. But for you to twist his ill behavior as being common amongst older pilots is as disgusting as his forum posts.
Do better. Like Swindells should.
@ 25YearUnitedPilot -- I appreciate the feedback, and I hear you. I acknowledged in my post that this doesn't represent all (or necessarily even most) pilots.
But if you've been a United pilot for 25 years, can you really tell me with a straight face that on balance there's not a lot more diversity among pilots that have been hired within the past five years, compared to the pilots within five years of retirement?
The MEC board should quickly condemn or at the very least distance themselves from these comments.
I really don't care about the union stuff. I care more about the fact this guy could be in the cockpit. And it isn't even because of his views/opinoins, as such. It's more his awful grasp at what is appropriate to write on an internet forum/in public and how he writes.
Professional, he is not.
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platy Guest
December 21, 2022, 4:42 am
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Winston Cornwall Guest
December 21, 2022, 10:24 am
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1 more reply@ Charles
In which forums did the posts originally get posted?!
I disagree vehemently…..let everyone say what they think. The authoritarians amongst us are the real threats. Speech monitoring and self-censorship are a poison to a free society.
another reason not to ever fly United. everyone should speak with their wallets when possible. there are far too many loose cannons like this new union leader.
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CHRIS Guest
December 20, 2022, 3:44 pm
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Scott Guest
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December 20, 2022, 3:48 pm
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2 more repliesI (and my wallet) have not flown UA in close to 13 years.....and I intend to keep it that way. Sure it's a bit annoying to take an extra 4 hours and a connection to get to Houston but it's still worth it to me.
+1, I avoid united all the time.
They carried almost 70 million passengers in 2021. Am sure they will miss you. To add, I’ve only ever flown them twice.
As a retired United/Continental airline employee, this person does not represent the entire airline, only a fraction. It is a sad time that the pilot group chose this individual who has very narrow vision of people and life. Where is empathy, understanding and
kindness in this person’s vision? An old adage states this, “ One catches more with honey, then one does with vinegar “. Maybe he should try it sometime !
There are a whole lot of United pilots that aren't thrilled with this guy for a whole lot of reasons beyond his comments about gender and working with people of diverse viewpoints.
All of this highlights the drama that continues to go on inside UAL ALPA and the challenge that getting an acceptable contract is to both the union, that lives or dies on what they can deliver economically for their pilots, and the...
There are a whole lot of United pilots that aren't thrilled with this guy for a whole lot of reasons beyond his comments about gender and working with people of diverse viewpoints.
All of this highlights the drama that continues to go on inside UAL ALPA and the challenge that getting an acceptable contract is to both the union, that lives or dies on what they can deliver economically for their pilots, and the company, that needs UAL to be a top choice for pilots.
DAL's AIP w/ its pilots will raise the bar for pilot salaries and in all likelihood double what AAL and UAL will have to spend to get contracts w/ their pilots compared to what they offered previously - with ripple on effects for other workgroups.
UAL's line pilots are the ones that pay the price in being delayed in getting the one thing they all want - more money and better QOL. United, despite Scott Kirby's bravado not that long ago, is going to slip down the ranks of destinations for pilots until UAL ALPA can get its internal house in order and successfully negotiate with the company
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MaxPower Guest
December 20, 2022, 11:51 pm
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Tim Dunn Diamond
December 21, 2022, 12:08 am
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MaxPower Guest
December 21, 2022, 9:59 am
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2 more repliesMight want to wait for delta pilots to send out the aip and ratify a TA before you start crowing, Tim.
I know how the process works.
I also know that the vast majority of people know that you don't kick a gift horse in the mouth.
The internet keyboard warriors will go to war on anything but the vast majority of employees will take the kind of money that Delta is waving in front of them because there simply is no likelihood that it will get any better. The dysfunctionality at United just...
I know how the process works.
I also know that the vast majority of people know that you don't kick a gift horse in the mouth.
The internet keyboard warriors will go to war on anything but the vast majority of employees will take the kind of money that Delta is waving in front of them because there simply is no likelihood that it will get any better. The dysfunctionality at United just eliminates the possibility of United pilots doing anything to benefit Delta pilots.
You, apparently, don’t know how the process works as it pertains to your writing or you wouldn’t write something so foolish as to assume an AIP that hasn’t even been passed by the union council or sent out is a done deal to be precedent setting and rippling through the industry.
There’s actually a loud group of delta pilots that are demanding a far higher 401k contribution. But, of course you know that… ;)
You, apparently, don’t know how the process works as it pertains to your writing or you wouldn’t write something so foolish as to assume an AIP that hasn’t even been passed by the union council or sent out is a done deal to be precedent setting and rippling through the industry.
There’s actually a loud group of delta pilots that are demanding a far higher 401k contribution. But, of course you know that… ;)
But it is very Tim Dunn to assume keyboard warriors at delta are a minority, but at United they’re the only Voice that matters… lol. Your bias always amuses. You simply can’t help Yourself.
Ben you obviously are biased here and this reads like tabloid drama.
Personal feelings aside anyone can register his name as their user name and you have no confirmation it is in fact him but that didn't stop you from writing this call to action against him. Might be legally liable if he isnt infact the author of those posts. And since this is union power politics at work i would absolutely believe someone...
Ben you obviously are biased here and this reads like tabloid drama.
Personal feelings aside anyone can register his name as their user name and you have no confirmation it is in fact him but that didn't stop you from writing this call to action against him. Might be legally liable if he isnt infact the author of those posts. And since this is union power politics at work i would absolutely believe someone wrote those things 1 year ago hoping to smear the guy.
Pretty garbage use of your reach and platform though, I will say that.
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Flygal Guest
December 20, 2022, 1:50 pm
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Not important Guest
December 21, 2022, 11:18 am
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Ray Guest
December 21, 2022, 8:38 pm
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3 more repliesAgreed.
He dug deep to reach this low.
I do t read this very often- think I will click even less. It all comes down to click bait. I bought and clicked. Never again.
@ Not important -- He has acknowledged that he wrote these things. So does your opinion change now?
Yep if he acknowledged it than I do think he's stupid for not playing the optics game himself. It is 2022 after all. But my belief that this stuff is twitter blog worthy won't change.. however that said it is your site to run as you see fit. But i don't believe wedge issues are a good way to keep an audience. Food for thought.
WTF! So the person that published “using” his name has now “apologized” for the posts while “using” his name? Where did you go to school? Trump University? Majored in logic?
His positions, while communicated in cringeworthy phrases, seem not much more than a counter balance to the extreme, although safely articulated, agenda of United airlines’ forced transition to a progressive culture.
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December 20, 2022, 2:07 pm
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henare Diamond
December 21, 2022, 6:43 pm
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3 more repliesHe appears to be a total jerk unwarily of being President of anything. If you agree with him its says a lot about you
What is wrong with progressive culture in a workplace?
You seem to enjoy “let’s keep the proportion of female pilots to minimum and give them half the pay of male counterparts” and also “let’s not be inclusive of every gender and race, we should select employees based on gender, colour and political opinions”
Eve, every pilot earns the same based on their years of service and what plane they fly. Not on their reproductive parts, or any other reason. Your perspective is why people push back hard on the (American) liberal agenda. You speak out of ignorance.
Explain how UA is *forced* to do anything that's outside the regulatory framework. We're waiting...
Neil Swindells seems pretty gay.
Self-loathing, sure, but totally gay.
And a power bottom.
Not a power bottom, a sub bottom.
Unions fighting the good fight, protecting poor, vulnerable workers from dangerous, abhorrent working conditions, and making sure that companies pay them enough to be able to lift themselves out of abject poverty.
Oh wait, these people are earning $500k a year. They are simply extortionists, and the working public will pay the bill. But his sense of victimhood and self righteousness are quite impressive, maybe he is aiming for a cabinet post in this admin.
"There aren’t many workplaces where you have people earning $300K+ per year (as a 787 captain at United does, if working a full schedule), yet they can still post like this online without any sort of backlash"
As a member of a powerful union (teachers union, pilots union, etc) you can pretty much get away with anything short of committing multiple felonies at work and even then it's darn near impossible to get outright fired....
"There aren’t many workplaces where you have people earning $300K+ per year (as a 787 captain at United does, if working a full schedule), yet they can still post like this online without any sort of backlash"
As a member of a powerful union (teachers union, pilots union, etc) you can pretty much get away with anything short of committing multiple felonies at work and even then it's darn near impossible to get outright fired. Your work performance does not matter. The only thing that matters is your tenure and your number on the seniority list.
BTW , a full month for a 787 Captain consists of about 5 transatlantic round trips. One day over, one day layover, one day back. 5 trips. 15 days off. Its great work if you can get it.
I would argue that if you express strong pro-union sentiment, you are not a true conservative. Conservatives don't generally align to the tactics of unions. I find it laughable to talk about professional respect as a person making hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary yet still being in a union that makes attacking the employer who pays that handsome salary a standard operating procedure. I admire "scabs" because they are willing to work while...
I would argue that if you express strong pro-union sentiment, you are not a true conservative. Conservatives don't generally align to the tactics of unions. I find it laughable to talk about professional respect as a person making hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary yet still being in a union that makes attacking the employer who pays that handsome salary a standard operating procedure. I admire "scabs" because they are willing to work while unions members are engaged in exortionary tactics with their employers which most of the time don't represent true hardships that unions fought in yesteryear.
As for his comments about the female pilot, I won't assume she is not a highly qualified pilot among the best at United. But this is the insidious side effect of DEI and, more generally historically, affirmative action. When organizations make overt efforts to "check boxes" for various group identities, that can't help but lead to questions as to whether someone is truly qualified, truly the best candidate, etc. or whether the company, which commonly falls all over itself to bow to left-leaning activist organizations, is not simply trying to placate those activists. That is ultimately unfair to the people who are qualified for the role and opportunities they are selected for. If we truly embraced treating everyone fairly and not elevating certain groups above others, we would be able to assume by default that someone being highlighted, hired, etc. is there solely on merit since merit would be the only factor used in their selection. That's why I am for equality for all and not the promotion of this or that group.
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December 20, 2022, 1:24 pm
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4 more repliesI think pilot unions are an outlier, because unions makes sense in the case of FAs and ground crews. Those unions represent proper working class population as their pay packages are significantly lower then your pilot, for much more work and in many cases, minimum salaries for those working in contract companies and sh*tty employees like Mesa, Envoy and so on
Besides this, you must also recognise unions in general are important to represent in...
I think pilot unions are an outlier, because unions makes sense in the case of FAs and ground crews. Those unions represent proper working class population as their pay packages are significantly lower then your pilot, for much more work and in many cases, minimum salaries for those working in contract companies and sh*tty employees like Mesa, Envoy and so on
Besides this, you must also recognise unions in general are important to represent in most industries. Salaries haven’t kept up with inflation over the years in many industries and this is something unions are brilliant in resolving, as long as they are able to form and sign up workers. On individual levels, corporations will not protect your interest, your everyday Amazon worker are put through intense work hours and extra unpaid duties, while living on bare minimum to survive.
anyway I do agree with your point, a $300k pilot complaining about pay is quite a contradiction, especially knowing Americans pilots in general earn the most and get immense amount of benefits. Lufthansa pilots will be drooling seeing a UA pilot (a joke because LH pilots are known to have the strongest Union in Europe and have the best salaries)
I would disagree about the need for unions. In the last several decades, it is the rare situation where a union is actually needed. I think one case may be the current efforts to simply get basic time off on the part of the freight railroads. But as for pay rates...that is the economics of the job. There are many jobs that pay well and some that do not. If the argument is corporations do...
I would disagree about the need for unions. In the last several decades, it is the rare situation where a union is actually needed. I think one case may be the current efforts to simply get basic time off on the part of the freight railroads. But as for pay rates...that is the economics of the job. There are many jobs that pay well and some that do not. If the argument is corporations do not want to pay high salaries why do they for some positions? Supply and demand. Economics work. And unions don't really fix anything but rather they make the economic situation worse which has to have consequences in some way.
Comments about "elevating certain groups above others" need to address the very long history in the US and elsewhere of elevating men and white people above others, definitely not "solely on merit" (one example at the highest levels of aviation: the qualified women refused Gemini astronaut candidacy due to the exclusion of women from military aviation, and this isnt just the TV show, read Rocket Men the book).
Whether or not particular efforts to...
Comments about "elevating certain groups above others" need to address the very long history in the US and elsewhere of elevating men and white people above others, definitely not "solely on merit" (one example at the highest levels of aviation: the qualified women refused Gemini astronaut candidacy due to the exclusion of women from military aviation, and this isnt just the TV show, read Rocket Men the book).
Whether or not particular efforts to rectify that unequal opportunity set are always perfect, those historically (and currently!) advantaged groups have significant subsets which strongly resist any change to their advantaged status quo, including refusing advancement by qualified people from outside that advantaged group. Look at the largely male management levels in most industries, even after decades of high performing MBA women who clearly were targeting careers there.
My personal opinion is that current corporate diversity programs are just window dressing, as evidenced by those management groups still largely composed of those advantaged groups. But even those minimal just for show efforts are too much progress for the subset. They are the ones blocking actual merit based opportunity.
IT is 2022, not 1962. At some point we have to stop using the excuse of bad actions from more than half a century ago as an excuse for special treatment and activist agendas today. If we don't we will never get to a merit-based society, but I suspect that is precisely what some with agendas want to avoid. If that were to happen, the power base for those who live on activism would wither and go away.
@ AGrumpyOldMan_GA
Contrary to your right wing idealism, the fundamental power inequity between one worker and an employer persists. Collective bargaining serves to balance such.
Some of those well paid jobs can be protected too, by compulsory membership and selective and restricted membership of professional bodies.You may not call them unions, but they are very effective in their role protecting their members.
the underlying IR legislative framework varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction - here in...
@ AGrumpyOldMan_GA
Contrary to your right wing idealism, the fundamental power inequity between one worker and an employer persists. Collective bargaining serves to balance such.
Some of those well paid jobs can be protected too, by compulsory membership and selective and restricted membership of professional bodies.You may not call them unions, but they are very effective in their role protecting their members.
the underlying IR legislative framework varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction - here in Australia we have both certain basic protections (minimal contract T&S for a given job) and the option for employers to read about the base.
Corporations (e.g. Qantas) continue the usual games of deferring contract negotiations when workplace agreements are due for renewal and denigrating their employees publicly whilst the executives scoop up 10s millions bucks worth of bonuses despite fundamental failures in their performing their roles.
In short, you're living in a delusional dream world if you believe otherwise.
So how much did Todd Insler pay you write this…. For the layman the former UAL union boss is a very corrupt sore loser that got absolutely destroyed by his peers in a barn burner of an election. That guy bragged behind the scenes about all his connections and how he’d use them (for or against you depending on what side you were on). Therefore having a hit piece done on his successor seems totally...
So how much did Todd Insler pay you write this…. For the layman the former UAL union boss is a very corrupt sore loser that got absolutely destroyed by his peers in a barn burner of an election. That guy bragged behind the scenes about all his connections and how he’d use them (for or against you depending on what side you were on). Therefore having a hit piece done on his successor seems totally within his character. Doesn’t excuse any of the things he said but be aware there’s some context as to why someone would like to come out swinging against the new leader so quickly.
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TravelinWilly Diamond
December 20, 2022, 1:28 pm
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platy Guest
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Ben Schlappig OMAAT
December 21, 2022, 9:59 am
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4 more repliesCalm down, Mary.
@ TravelinWilly
"Calm down, Mary."
Not only is that odiously sexist, but the six people that upvoted your comment should be ashamed of themselves.
Can't believe this BS is happening on OMAAT.
Yes- a little perspective from all would be nice. Especially those that do not have a proverbial “dog in the fight”. If you want to complain about pricing, blah blah blah…it is cheaper to fly than to drive to most locations. Airline ticket prices have not kept up with inflation. Ticket prices should be much higher, but they are not. Do you complain about all employees negotiating their compensation package? Then let start to pick...
Yes- a little perspective from all would be nice. Especially those that do not have a proverbial “dog in the fight”. If you want to complain about pricing, blah blah blah…it is cheaper to fly than to drive to most locations. Airline ticket prices have not kept up with inflation. Ticket prices should be much higher, but they are not. Do you complain about all employees negotiating their compensation package? Then let start to pick apart yours. You do not know everything an airline contract entails. You do not live the lifestyle. You have a myopic view of an airline employees life. Basically it comes down to “none-ya”- as in none of your business. No one is berating the airline executives who make so much money their grandchildren never have to work. Shut up about those actually working and earning a living. As for the pilot union- did it ever occur to anyone - why would someone write such crazy stuff and then sign their first and last name? Anyone could have made that account. For the points guy to repeat it - verbatim- makes me question why he would, as well. Clearly an ulterior motive.
The new leader said some pretty abhorrent things. He did that all on his own, so I fail to see how any discussion of the old leader is relevant.
@ Captain Jim -- To be honest, I don't know anything about Todd Insler. I'm not making a relative case for why the new union boss comes across as a jerk, but rather an absolute case. If another boss posts similar things online, please let me know and I'd be happy to write about that as well (no payment required).
Thanks for calling attention to this. Sad but not shocking that the first two comments are basically 'don't care stick to points' guys (and, let's be honest, they are guys!)
You can be blue collar and and not an asshole. You can care about aviation not just for yourself but also for employees and travelers who aren't like you. This guy and these commenters who don't care how he acts have a bummer small worldview...
Thanks for calling attention to this. Sad but not shocking that the first two comments are basically 'don't care stick to points' guys (and, let's be honest, they are guys!)
You can be blue collar and and not an asshole. You can care about aviation not just for yourself but also for employees and travelers who aren't like you. This guy and these commenters who don't care how he acts have a bummer small worldview and perspective outside of themselves. As one former president used to say: SAD!
And they want to be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars per year for their "professionalism". No doubt, he's a Democrat and since he's a union boss this will go barely noticed by the media. The party of tolerance strikes again. Really nice.
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Sam Guest
December 20, 2022, 12:52 pm
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UALflyr Guest
December 21, 2022, 3:17 pm
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1 more replyYou’re joking right lol this is the stuff a republican would say but okay
And... NOPE. NS may be many things, but a right-winger/conservative/Republican, he absolutely is not.
Example #infinity of why people look stupid when they know not of what they speak.
This guy is obviously a tool. I doubt he will be in this job very long
Especially and HOPERULLY not very long in the job as head of the United Pilot group!
While this guy may be problematic for some, why should we care? I'd appreciate a direct connection between this guy's "problematic" behavior and why we should care/ how it should impact our travel habits? That's what I expect to see from your posts/ your blog, and frankly, I'm not seeing it here.
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TravelinWilly Diamond
December 20, 2022, 1:26 pm
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GPA Guest
December 21, 2022, 1:53 am
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1 more replyBad judgment is never a good look for a pilot.
Sounds alot like Jimmy Hoffa and he did alot for the working class. At least the guys has the balls to speak his mind and not worry if he is going to offend someone. Trump endorsed sexaul assault "grab her by the pussy" and he was ok to be president. I think this lad has feelings toward certain things and he expresses them so what? If some tells someone I'm an ass but does have...
Sounds alot like Jimmy Hoffa and he did alot for the working class. At least the guys has the balls to speak his mind and not worry if he is going to offend someone. Trump endorsed sexaul assault "grab her by the pussy" and he was ok to be president. I think this lad has feelings toward certain things and he expresses them so what? If some tells someone I'm an ass but does have the balls to tell youbin public then theu are a coward. Obviously someone who was offended wrote this!
While the topic is AV-related, does this affect 1) earning points, 2) burning points, or 3) award availability? Does this affect in-airport or on-board experience? If not, I'm not going to sweat the soap opera. Similarly, I'm not going to sweat whether AA chooses the 787-9 over the 787-10 or when Delta will ultimately retire its 7X7 aircraft. Or whether some DOE employee stole a suitcase. I'm not suggesting such articles should not be published....
While the topic is AV-related, does this affect 1) earning points, 2) burning points, or 3) award availability? Does this affect in-airport or on-board experience? If not, I'm not going to sweat the soap opera. Similarly, I'm not going to sweat whether AA chooses the 787-9 over the 787-10 or when Delta will ultimately retire its 7X7 aircraft. Or whether some DOE employee stole a suitcase. I'm not suggesting such articles should not be published. I'm suggesting we maintain perspective.
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TravelinWilly Diamond
December 20, 2022, 1:25 pm
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platy Guest
December 21, 2022, 4:29 am
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Ben Schlappig OMAAT
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platy Guest
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3 more repliesThank you for a paragraph that is literally all about…you, answering all those questions literally nobody asked.
@ TravelinWilly
"Thank you for a paragraph that is literally all about...you"
No, and @ Lee is entirely correct.
To quote this website lead-in:
"OMAAT brings you the latest travel news, reviews, and strategies to maximize elite travel status. Earn more miles, points, and rewards with today’s top credit card offers."
This article offers NOTHING to meet Lucky's self-declared goal.
The delicious irony is that your own posts are equally, if not more offensive and...
@ TravelinWilly
"Thank you for a paragraph that is literally all about...you"
No, and @ Lee is entirely correct.
To quote this website lead-in:
"OMAAT brings you the latest travel news, reviews, and strategies to maximize elite travel status. Earn more miles, points, and rewards with today’s top credit card offers."
This article offers NOTHING to meet Lucky's self-declared goal.
The delicious irony is that your own posts are equally, if not more offensive and vile, than those that the new Chair of the United MEC is being pilloried for:
"Neil Swindells seems pretty gay. Self-loathing, sure, but totally gay."
One can but hope if your own employer saw such vile commentary that you would be sacked yourself.
Kudos to @ Lucky for tolerating your BS and the personal disrespect you have visited upon him and his family.
On the other hand, if travel bloggers stick to the core topics that they themselves set themselves, we can avoid these sorts of articles and senseless bickering that brings out the worst in the people's comments.
@ Lee -- I hear you, that this isn't part of the core of what this blog is about, but what does that have to do with maintaining perspective? I'm sure I'm not alone in being concerned about the mental state of a senior captain at an airline who is writing these kinds of things online, and finds this to be appropriate.
@ Lucky
So, now the debate has shifted to be about this guy's "mental state" rather than fitness to hold an executive office within the United MEC?
As a captain surely this guy is subject to regular medicals, ratings checks, etc. Friends of mine who are pilots certainly are persistently being assessed for their medical fitness and professional competence.
If you think writing stuff on social media blogs is to be taken into account, how...
@ Lucky
So, now the debate has shifted to be about this guy's "mental state" rather than fitness to hold an executive office within the United MEC?
As a captain surely this guy is subject to regular medicals, ratings checks, etc. Friends of mine who are pilots certainly are persistently being assessed for their medical fitness and professional competence.
If you think writing stuff on social media blogs is to be taken into account, how does this person's social media output compare to that of other US based pilots (or the population in general)? Some commentators on this issue are suggesting the output of such is quite spicy!
A local pilot friend of mine posted some racist stuff on Facebook (anti-black and anti- Muslim) a couple of times - should she be dragged off for mental assessment?!
FWIW I personally don't like the language used, but the hysterical reaction this has invoked on travel blogs is mental.
Ben - I'm not supporting what the union boss said, but you similarly come off as a bit ivory tower / tone deaf critiquing blue collar approaches to stirring up labor causes.
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Dante Guest
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8 more replies@JR - I'm not sure using slurs and hate speech = "stirring up labor causes." If that's really your intended message and that the way to get "blue collar" labor union members excited about union activities is to marginalize and attack some of their own members, it's a pretty sad state of affairs. I don't see Sara Nelson out there using this type of language to motivate members of her FA union...so I hope this...
@JR - I'm not sure using slurs and hate speech = "stirring up labor causes." If that's really your intended message and that the way to get "blue collar" labor union members excited about union activities is to marginalize and attack some of their own members, it's a pretty sad state of affairs. I don't see Sara Nelson out there using this type of language to motivate members of her FA union...so I hope this isn't the case.
This guy should be held accountable for his public statements.
labor causes can be just as well fought without using this kind of language. Even the French are civil about this...
What the heck are you talking about? Ben was discussing this guy's abhorrent posts, not his union tactics.
@ JR -- I'm always happy to learn and improve, so could you fill me in on what about my post is tone deaf? You think there's any excuse for stirring up labor causes by... wishing anal cancer on people?
Thanks for engaging Ben.
Wasn’t it AOC who argued that protests were “meant to make others uncomfortable”? Is it only okay when woke leftists do it?
I’ll also note that there are a lot of worked up, sneering professional managerial class homosexuals up in this thread, calling for “no pilot cockpits” and completely negating this man’s critique of UA’s woke pandering (such advocates of labor, wow!). Sort of proves my point.
And yes I’m gay.
@ JR -- What does AOC have to do with anything? I'm not sure if you're suggesting she's some idol of mine, or something. It seems like you don't like her, though, so is quoting her supposed to strengthen the point of the United pilot, or...? The point is a bit lost on me, unless we're just quoting random people at this point.
If you can't appreciate that wishing cancer upon other people is cruel...
@ JR -- What does AOC have to do with anything? I'm not sure if you're suggesting she's some idol of mine, or something. It seems like you don't like her, though, so is quoting her supposed to strengthen the point of the United pilot, or...? The point is a bit lost on me, unless we're just quoting random people at this point.
If you can't appreciate that wishing cancer upon other people is cruel and disgusting (and I say that as my mom continues to battle cancer for nearly four years now -- I'm lucky to still have her around), then I'm not sure there's much common ground here. This isn't about politics or anything else, it's about human decency, and about a lack of basic boundaries. Am I being "woke" for finding that disgusting? I've never wished cancer upon anyone, no matter how much I dislike them.
Not sure where I said his statements weren’t cruel, Ben. Work on the rhetoric skills (you can take courses); still love your work though.
I was fired from UAL last year and it’s it’s true what you are writing.
Senior pilots at UAL are most racist pilot group I ever encountered in my life.
I was fired from UAL last year and it’s it’s true what you are writing.
Senior pilots at UAL are most racist pilot group I ever encountered in my life.
I hope somebody takes closer look at this.