We’re seeing quite some nice improvements to the long haul business class products of major US airlines. We recently saw American introduce its new Flagship Suite business class, soon United plans to introduce its new Polaris business class, and next up it’s Delta’s turn. We’re getting more of a sense of what we can expect…
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Delta installing VantageNOVA seats on A350-1000s?
Delta has 20 Airbus A350-1000s on order, which will eventually be the carrier’s flagship aircraft. Not only will this be Delta’s largest aircraft, but it’s also expected to be the most premium configured plane. Unfortunately at this point, we’ll have to wait until 2027 for the first of these planes to be delivered.
So, what can we expect onboard? We’ve heard some rumblings over time, though JonNYC has some interesting new insights, as usual. Jon suggests that Delta’s new business class suite on the Airbus A350-1000 will be the Thompson Aero VantageNOVA product, and that the airline will install 50 business class seats on the aircraft, which is the most business class seats Delta has ever installed on an aircraft (though still short of the 64 business class seats United will have on its new 787-9s).
It makes perfect sense that this is the product that Delta is going with, given that Delta already has a close partnership with Thompson Aero for its business class seats (the A350-900s have the Thompson Aero Vantage XL product).
Like many new products nowadays, the VantageNOVA product is pretty flexible, and airlines can elect one of the two layouts, all in a 1-2-1 layout:
- All seats can be reverse herringbone, meaning the window seats face the windows, and the center seats face the center
- It can be a hybrid cabin, with the window seats facing the aisle (herringbone), and the center seats facing the center (reverse herringbone)
I think it’s safe to say that most people would prefer the former layout compared to the latter. It’s worth noting that this is intended to be a very efficient product to install, with seats having as little as 40″ of pitch.
Like many new premium products, Thompson Aero also promises a front row “business class plus” product, taking advantage of the extra space in the first row.
The VantageNOVA product was only unveiled in 2024, and isn’t yet in service. Thompson Aero says it has a launch customer for this product, though that customer hasn’t been disclosed. So I think it’s highly likely that Delta is the launch customer being referred to.
My take on Delta’s potential new business class seat
What’s interesting is that American and United are both in the process of rolling out a new business class product as well, and they’ve selected exactly the same seat — the Adient Ascent product. But like many airplane seats, there’s lots of flexibility there for customization.
So, what should we make of Delta’s new business class seat? Well, I’d say it looks very similar to the Adient Ascent product. Both are intended to be efficient, and offer the option of a combined herringbone and reverse herringbone configuration. Still, it’s hard to know comfort level for sure, since this product isn’t yet in service with any airline.
I think we’ve reached the point now where business class seats aren’t actually getting much more comfortable, but instead, it’s just about whether they have a door, and how good the seat tech is (entertainment screens, charging, bluetooth audio, etc.).
For that matter, what counts most is how many planes an airline has with its latest generation premium seats. Take Emirates as an example. Emirates has its amazing “Game Changer” first class, which was introduced in 2017… it has been installed on a total of nine(!!!) planes. At the current pace, the entire fleet may be reconfigured with the product by 2275!
So yeah, it’s great that we’ll see the first plane with this product enter service for Delta in 2027, and I question whether Delta will reconfigure any planes with the product (I doubt it, since this product can’t be retrofitted on A330s and 767s, and I doubt Delta thinks the investment is worth it on existing A350s).
Bottom line
We know that Delta plans to introduce a new business class product on its Airbus A350-1000s, which should be delivered as of 2027. Rumors suggest that Delta will be installing the Thompson Aero VantageNOVA product, with 50 of these seats being installed on Delta’s new flagship aircraft. I suspect Delta will be the launch customer for this seat, so I look forward to learning all the details.
What do you make of Delta’s new business class plans?
I can tell this will be riddled by the awfulness of skyteam
I am inclined to believe it's problably DL because TG, who also seems to be taking this seat, said that they haven't unveiled the seat yet because another airline wanted to be the launch customer. I wonder if Delta will use the colors on the seat as they do now.
I'd imagine these seats will also be installed on the 787s that DL will order this year
Oh good, another different Delta One product on another fleet type.
Am I the only person who prefers the Polaris seats over these? The every other row center seats are better for couples. The reverse herringbone seats, no matter how customized, are terrible when traveling with a spouse/friend. The Polaris seats were the most innovative seats by U.S. airlines in years. Dense and economical with good options for couples. Nothing that exciting since.
Yes
Honestly business class seats have plateaued, as long as you're offering direct aisle access, good privacy, and decent sleeping configuration you're golden in my books.
Starlink and other touches like soft product are really what elevates things. QR's Starlink wifi was incredibly fast and nice to have on an airplane.
Julie, he does the same thing with Roberto. It’s kind of sad.
That’s weird lol. Sorry, Yoloswag420.
This is so premium, it knocked my socks off!
And yes, this is the real Julie, not the fake impostor that harasses and accuses other people of being an imposter (you can see because I have it in my signature, which is totally 100% proof)
-- real Julie
you seem obsessed with my username... Good for you. It's nice that you obsess so much over me.
I think it's fairly obvious how I speak. Your life is really this boring and your own self confidence is this low to just steal other usernames?
Tim, your childishness never disappoints.
You are the obsessive one commenting and pretending you are me every time.
I kind of hate that Thompson doesn't bother with naming its products and just calls them Vantage, Vantage XL, Vantage NOVA, when they're clearly different platforms.
Interesting. When DL announced D1 unbundling and the upgrade of 332/333 to the 339/350 type D1 with "true" and "not true" window seats, I really thought the writing was one the wall: you'd have to pay extra to preselect a true window seat. But now this. It has me wondering.
It's natural. Delta rolled out its first lie-flat seats around 2006. Let's call that 1.0 seat. 10 years later, Delta announced its 2.0 seat that came with doors. So, flash forward another 10 days, to around 2027, and Delta is rolling out its 3.0 seat. Unfortunately, Delta still has 330s with the 1.0 seat that's arguably 3 to 5 years overdue for replacement as it is. And the 767s never got the 2.0 seat. It was really a 1.50 version at best.
It seems very likely that DL's 763s will be leaving service starting in '27. Depending on global economics the end date some have mentioned of 2030 for the last 763 could be accelerated.
Meanwhile, yes, the fist gen A330s are really feeling tired up front. The 339 is so much better, and now that pairs like MSP-AMS are getting a mix of 333s, 339s and even A350s, choosing a departure time with the oldest...
It seems very likely that DL's 763s will be leaving service starting in '27. Depending on global economics the end date some have mentioned of 2030 for the last 763 could be accelerated.
Meanwhile, yes, the fist gen A330s are really feeling tired up front. The 339 is so much better, and now that pairs like MSP-AMS are getting a mix of 333s, 339s and even A350s, choosing a departure time with the oldest non-doored seat at same or similar pricing starts to really rankle.
Just 50 seats? That’s laughable. I guess we’ll have to wait until 2027…. LOL.
In somewhat related news, Philippine Airlines also revealed their new business class seats for the upcoming A35Ks. They have chosen the Collins Elevation platform for these A35Ks, just like BA and EY.
to Ben's point, it is hard to do much more advanced in business class seats and it would be worthwhile to read a facts and measurements comparison of the latest generation of business class seats, including any airline customizations that are beyond cosmetic.
I think we are really down to small differences in the placement of storage units and minor differences in size depending on the aircraft type the seat is being fitted in.
@Tim Dunn - that is kinda true at the current time. Sure there's some revolutionary business class seats like ANA THE Room or Qsuites (both of which have came many years ago by now though), but I'm not sure the investments needed to develop such products nowadays, unless that airline is regarded some of the class-leaders. I'm sure the form factor of reverse herringbone/staggered sbusiness class seats have most of what the customers demand -...
@Tim Dunn - that is kinda true at the current time. Sure there's some revolutionary business class seats like ANA THE Room or Qsuites (both of which have came many years ago by now though), but I'm not sure the investments needed to develop such products nowadays, unless that airline is regarded some of the class-leaders. I'm sure the form factor of reverse herringbone/staggered sbusiness class seats have most of what the customers demand - adding minor details and tech to follow up the age may be enough for a while.
The way I see the situation is that the popularity of reverse herringbone and staggered seats will continue in major airlines, unless some significant change occurs to the types cabin class themselves, like appearance of totally new cabin concept.
your points are valid.
The bigger question is whether there are seat manufacturers that will take on these types of custom projects. LH tried it w/ Allegris and it has spectacularly failed - and it is not a single manufacturer.
It will be interesting to see if all of these new widebody suite products get certificated w/o problems or if the problem is really trying to put widebody type seats in narrowbodies.
There was an article on it 4 months ago.
https://onemileatatime.com/news/philippine-airlines-airbus-a350-1000/
But as I've mentioned below, I wonder what made them (along with Delta) to change their mind with the layout. Most carriers seem to want to keep their layouts consistent (think Cathay, Qatar, ANA, Qantas, Singapore et al.)
@Mike O. - I haven't noticed that article yet. But it seems like the presentation shown there contains an image of the Collins Elements - the one Starlux A359s have.
For PAL specifically, regarding their decision to changing the layout from staggered to reverse herringbone, maybe it doesn't really matter to them. Even to me this sounds weird, but their A359 fleet is very small (only two left after selling some to Lufthansa during...
@Mike O. - I haven't noticed that article yet. But it seems like the presentation shown there contains an image of the Collins Elements - the one Starlux A359s have.
For PAL specifically, regarding their decision to changing the layout from staggered to reverse herringbone, maybe it doesn't really matter to them. Even to me this sounds weird, but their A359 fleet is very small (only two left after selling some to Lufthansa during the Pandemic), and these are replacing their B77Ws which have completely different seats from both A350 types. Also, all window side seats are labelled A or K while all aisle seats are D or G regardless of whether is the seat closer to the aisle or not. So there won't be a confusion or having to change the seats in case of an aircraft swap.
Or maybe simply there's too many outstanding orders of new generation staggered seats (JAL's remaining A35Ks, Air India, possibly Riyadh Air and Qantas plus more), so PAL chose Collins Elevation which seems to have been ordered less (the ones I can recall are only Etihad and MAS).
Should have said "I haven't noticed that article yet by the time of writing that comment" or something but it is what it is. Sorry for any possible confusion
first, there are multiple sites that have discussed DL's possible choice of the Vantage Nova seat so it is hardly breaking news or even original speculation by Jon.
second, you are right, Ben, that it is getting harder and harder to improve lie flat suites.
third, DL already has 80 aircraft with their current generation Delta One Suites - on the A350-900s and A339s. AA has, what, a couple planes with suites, and UA...
first, there are multiple sites that have discussed DL's possible choice of the Vantage Nova seat so it is hardly breaking news or even original speculation by Jon.
second, you are right, Ben, that it is getting harder and harder to improve lie flat suites.
third, DL already has 80 aircraft with their current generation Delta One Suites - on the A350-900s and A339s. AA has, what, a couple planes with suites, and UA has ZERO, amiright?
AA is going to retrofit aircraft with their new business class seat but UA has not committed to doing so.
The best thing that would happen to UA's fleet is if they use their new deliveries of 787s over the next few years to push dozens of old 777s and 767s out the door.
I would expect we will know DL's fleet plan for the next five years by the end of the year- by Delta's Investor Day in December and we still could hear about a 787 order - which more and more people at DL say is coming -as soon as this weekend at the employee Centennial Party.
"it is hardly breaking news or even original speculation by Jon"
This is just such a bad look, Tim, even for you. Obsess over DL, not other people. Your stock keeps sinking in new ways.
facts get in the way?
DL said years ago there would be a new seat on the 35Ks.
there are only so many choices and multiple other people have suggested Vantage Nova.
If all Jon can do is read the internet and act like he has new info or speculation which people like Ben trip over, it is very much worth calling out.
There are plenty of people on the internet that speculate about all kinds of things.
oh memories...
Anyone else remember when Tim told everyone these new D1 seats were going to be groundbreaking and blow out of the water anything else AA and UA do?
I don't understand the religious cult aspect of this kid's Delta obsession. I understand he is on the spectrum (nonharm in that per se) and his dad flies for DL, but otherwise the weird presentation of opinions as facts and odd off colour comments about random gents is odd even for those like him in the spectrum.
Regarding DL, nothing new or ground breaking, just another North American airline playing catch-up with the rest of the world.
I don't understand how some people swoon at every word I write.;.. but I do know I get a smile on my face every time some of you take the bait.
and, at least, DL had the forethought to not order the same thing as AA and UA.
Scott Kirby certainly had a cow the day he found out that UA had ordered the same thing that AA ordered several years earlier.
"but I do know I get a smile on my face every time some of you take the bait."
My point, Tim.
I'm boarding a flight.
Get a life.
“I get a smile on my face every time some of you take the bait”
Making comments as “bait” makes sense. It means even you don’t believe what you’re writing. That you knowingly manipulate data or make wildly inaccurate claims with no evidence to support them, all to get a reaction.
That’s called “trolling”, Tim. And it’s absolutely nothing to be proud of.
All I will say is that I don't like how they're moving away from a foward-facing, staggered layout. that is supreme. I wish they went with Safran Unity.
Agree. The existing Vantage XL looks better than this Reverse Herringbone design
Quick correction on this being the most Delta business class seats on a plane - back around 2000, Delta had 767-300s with up to 56 BusinessElite seats. BusinessElite went all the way back to the overwing exits, with the first overwing exit being the first row of coach. I think whY only had 153 seats.
Before they reconfigured the NW 744s, those had 65 business class seats.
Granted, this was long before Glen took over and tore Premium seats out of Delta widebodies.
Once again Delta will be crushed by United - 64 to 50. I'm surprised that 'premium' Delta would yield to United in the number of premium seats.
because DL focuses on business premium, UA focuses on leisure/business premium. but let's also compare DL vs. UA premium select/premium plus numbers.
point being, their clientele don't cross over 100%.
I for one, a leisure premium traveler, am basically indifferent between DL and UA and choose based on schedule unless there's a major difference in price.
DL seems fine for leisure premium. How is it not focused there?
Apples to oranges. It’s not the same.
did you sleep through today's route announcement, counter?
UA announced 2 daily flights on widebodies, some on 757s that have the most inferior business class product on a TATL aircraft and even more on MAXs which don't even have premium economy seats as UA has on its widebodies.
The MAXs will have the domestic First seats sold as Premium Economy.
the key words "DOMESTIC FIRST CLASS SEATS" which are nowhere near what Premium Economy seats are even by UA standards on their widebodies.
And yet UA is bigger that DL across the Atlantic and makes significantly more TATL revenue, as well as more airline revenue in general.
UA currently has a much larger widebody fleet than DL, and a much larger widebody order book.
The narrowbody flying is in addition to those hundreds of widebodies they have, and the many more they have coming.
The narrowbodies allow UA to give customers options with nonstop flights to...
And yet UA is bigger that DL across the Atlantic and makes significantly more TATL revenue, as well as more airline revenue in general.
UA currently has a much larger widebody fleet than DL, and a much larger widebody order book.
The narrowbody flying is in addition to those hundreds of widebodies they have, and the many more they have coming.
The narrowbodies allow UA to give customers options with nonstop flights to cities DL could never profitably serve.
Six cities in Spain, five in Portugal, the plan to go to 100 widebody departures a day from EWR, cementing EWR’s status as the crown jewel northeast hub in one of the biggest aviation markets in the world.
But you’re choosing to criticize something UA does that DL can’t, namely offering the most destinations in Europe and around the world.
Meanwhile UA is adding a third daily NYC-TLV, where DL is the one with LY as a partner, and UA is adding EWR-ICN, it’s fourth flight to Asia (not counting what will come back when Russian airspace opens), when DL doesn’t offer a single flight to Asia from such an important aviation market.
The irony that one of DL’s two NYC hubs in their inefficient split hub operation is so RJ heavy and restricted by a perimeter rule.
First, I want to say hi to Tim.
Moving on, I wonder what made them (along with Philippine Airlines) ditch their current staggered layout. Change of heart?
And wasn't Thai supposed to be the launch customer of this product?
If they are the launch customer, hopefully they won’t have seat certification issues like they are with the new transcon A321neos.
I think the current D1 Suite on the A350s and A339s is sufficient, even compared to the newer generation of seats, and don’t see a need for those to be retrofitted at this time.
Certification seems to hold up all the new seats. And I’m sure this Thompson product will suffer the same.
And @Ben, hold your dang horses. AAs 777-300 retro fit will have 70 some J class suites, putting both DL and UA to shame.
seriously, what does the 69 other business class seats matter to you if you are in yours?
and what does the 51st through 70th business class seats do for an airline's bottom line if they were filled with upgrades?
DL has had aircraft with 50 business class seats before but what will be different about the A350-1000 is that DL will be configuring them, reportedly, with about 315 seats which is well below the average...
seriously, what does the 69 other business class seats matter to you if you are in yours?
and what does the 51st through 70th business class seats do for an airline's bottom line if they were filled with upgrades?
DL has had aircraft with 50 business class seats before but what will be different about the A350-1000 is that DL will be configuring them, reportedly, with about 315 seats which is well below the average for other carriers for that model.
And that few seats will turn that airplane into an 18 hour plane - long enough to open routes than no other US airline can do.
The 787 sure can't do routes that long unless it becomes a 150 seat airplane.
The 777X won't touch it until the 777-8 comes out, maybe by 2035.
The Delta 350-1000 will not be about the size of the business class cabin - one way or another - but about the enormous range advantage that DL will have with the type.