While it seems like there are a lot of hurdles to overcome, it’s interesting to see the government even proposing this…
In this post:
Emirates asked to operate seventh freedom Israel flights
Israel’s N12 publication is reporting that Israel’s Ministry of Transportation has met with senior officials from Emirates, and has made a surprising request. Specifically, the country is proposing that Emirates launches seventh freedom flights from Tel Aviv (TLV) to both New York (JFK) and Bangkok (BKK), and possibly other destinations.
This would allow Emirates to transport passenger exclusively between Israel and the United States and Thailand. I’ve written a lot about fifth freedom flights, whereby airlines operate to another country via a third country. But this is even a seventh freedom proposal, so it wouldn’t even have to be in conjunction with a flight to or from Dubai (DXB).
Before October 7, 2023, Emirates was operating a massive schedule between Dubai and Tel Aviv, as relations between the two countries have warmed up in recent years. However, the airline hasn’t flown to Israel since then, so it has been over two years. Apparently this move is part of a larger deal in hopes of getting Emirates to finally return to Israel.
There’s one major catch, though — aviation laws in Israel would need to be changed for this to happen. While the proposal has the support by the country’s Ministry of Transportation, you can expect that competing airlines in Israel will of course petition to block this.
This would be good for consumers, but seems unlikely
Israel obviously really wants Emirates to resume service to the country. The Israeli government has historically taking a pretty protectionist approach to its airlines, so it’s wild to see the country inviting Emirates to set up seventh freedom flights out of the airport, as that’s truly unprecedented.
Emirates already has several fifth freedom flights that touch the United States, including New York (JFK) to Milan (MXP), Newark (EWR) to Athens (ATH), and Miami (MIA) to Bogota (BOG). However, this would potentially even be a step further.
In theory, I imagine Emirates is open to new fifth freedom opportunities. And suffice it to say that both US and Israeli airlines would hate to see Emirates launching service in these markets, given what it means for competition.
However, on both sides, this strikes me as a real uphill battle:
- Israel needs to actually change its laws to allow this, and I imagine the local airlines will be very vocal with their opposition
- From an overall regional optics and political standpoint, I question if Emirates finds this to be worthwhile any time in the near future
Anyway, this is definitely something worth keeping an eye on, and I’m curious to see what comes of this, if anything!
Bottom line
The Israeli government is inviting Emirates to set up a base in Tel Aviv, and fly to New York and Bangkok. This seems to be part of an overall larger negotiation, in hopes of getting Emirates to resume its service between Dubai and Tel Aviv, which has been suspended for well over two years now.
Emirates is always looking for interesting fifth freedom opportunities, and this is an unexpected one that wasn’t on my radar. However, there are lots of hurdles here, not the least of which is that laws have to be changed in Israel for this to be allowed.
What do you make of the prospect of Emirates operating seventh freedom flights out of Tel Aviv?
As always, nothing is absolute and nobody is perfect. Of course, everyone has his detractors and supporters, regardless of his stature. I introduced him as a genocide scholar, nothing more and he is definitely not my guru. I certainly never assert or assume that other sources of info outside Youtube are incorrect. Reread my previous reply. I am unequivocally certain that you have negative (below zero) qualification to challenge his view. When I share my...
As always, nothing is absolute and nobody is perfect. Of course, everyone has his detractors and supporters, regardless of his stature. I introduced him as a genocide scholar, nothing more and he is definitely not my guru. I certainly never assert or assume that other sources of info outside Youtube are incorrect. Reread my previous reply. I am unequivocally certain that you have negative (below zero) qualification to challenge his view. When I share my knowledge or present my rebuttal, I tend to include a link or two so other readers can read/ watch it and form their own opinions. Few readers caution not to conflate Jews with Zionists but nobody had provided context to help other readers make sense. We can read the same post or watch/ listen to the same discussion, many of us will reach multiple conclusions. Knowledgeable people can change minds of rational people but they won't change hearts of radical people. In the majority of non-European/ western countries, the evidence clearly supported the definition. In today's polarized environment filled with non-factual theories from people who have no background in subject matter, it is a challenge to navigate where the facts are for others. On the Israel-Palestine conflict, I see things quite clearly as I criticize all parties that are waging wars and targeting civilians. The Middle East always fascinates and captivates me. Its civilization is beyond captivating.
Untrue. You can learn a lot from Youtube, unlike other social media platforms when someone uploads real life discussions. It depends on your knowledge on such subject matter in addition to the caliber and qualifications of the host and the guests. If you dismiss their qualifications, you basically deny historical facts because I honestly have yet read any convincing comments, > 98%, on history from all readers and bloggers. When you lack or deny historical...
Untrue. You can learn a lot from Youtube, unlike other social media platforms when someone uploads real life discussions. It depends on your knowledge on such subject matter in addition to the caliber and qualifications of the host and the guests. If you dismiss their qualifications, you basically deny historical facts because I honestly have yet read any convincing comments, > 98%, on history from all readers and bloggers. When you lack or deny historical facts, it is highly unlikely that you can intellectually engage in any non-science discussion. His personal background, born and raised in Israel and joined the IDF, and professional/ academic stature are indisputable. There are always other people who will dispute anything and anyone. In science, you are required to prove any thing true and accurate. In social science, anything goes. When it comes to Israel-Palestine conflict, there are only two camps. Those who possess and use historical facts to educate others while others to manipulate and deny at all costs. Before leaving Kuwait three decades ago, I always hoped I'd have an opportunity to live and work in Israel in order to understand the missing half of the equation to understand the conflict. Less than a month into the Gazan war, such hope was buried six feet under. In the last two years, independent non-profit domestic and foreign news media have educated me a lot on this subject matter. Youtube provides me feedback to learn MidEast history backward--from Gazan war to the Ottoman Empire.
Globetrotter, whatever gives you the option that there are those who look beyond YouTube for historical facts are wrong?
You quote Omer Bartov, as your guru. It is absolutely true that he is one who is universally acknowledged as a well respected authority on the subject of Genocide. Have you actually read any of his books on the subject? For example; Genocide, The Holocaust and Israel-Palestine: First-Person History in Times of Crisis published in 2023....
Globetrotter, whatever gives you the option that there are those who look beyond YouTube for historical facts are wrong?
You quote Omer Bartov, as your guru. It is absolutely true that he is one who is universally acknowledged as a well respected authority on the subject of Genocide. Have you actually read any of his books on the subject? For example; Genocide, The Holocaust and Israel-Palestine: First-Person History in Times of Crisis published in 2023. I have and many of his other books too, going back several decades.
His opinions have become part of a very controversial and widely-reported debate about how to interpret Israel’s military actions and their legal and moral implications. He has his supporters, however, he is not without criticism. His use of the term “genocide” has been sharply contested. Leading legal scholars, commentators and other academics disputing whether the legal definition of genocide applies. Also, whether the evidence meets the required threshold of specific intent to destroy a protected group. A most important element in the conundrum.
So Globetrotter, the subject is not as black and white as you might imagine. Perhaps Bartov’s forthcoming book, I cannot put my finger on the title, I am sure that it will throw even more light upon the subject.
I suppose that the bottom line is that the likes of you and me are less well informed than some. However, you might care to look for your historical perspective and facts beyond YouTube, yes?
I have enjoyed some of the dialogue exchanges with certain commentators on this page. It is most refreshing to actually engage in an intellectual conversation herein. Thank you Ben, for enabling such intercourse.
More often than not one’s mental stimulation is restrained by responding to the one line moronic mumblings from the likes of ORD (logged in as MEGA Joe), frrp, deltasax or Walter Mitty Dunn. Quite obviously, the actors behind these login names, know...
I have enjoyed some of the dialogue exchanges with certain commentators on this page. It is most refreshing to actually engage in an intellectual conversation herein. Thank you Ben, for enabling such intercourse.
More often than not one’s mental stimulation is restrained by responding to the one line moronic mumblings from the likes of ORD (logged in as MEGA Joe), frrp, deltasax or Walter Mitty Dunn. Quite obviously, the actors behind these login names, know little of what they post. However, please be assured that their click is appreciated by Ben. Furthermore by myself and others who enjoy reading Ben’s flight reviews.
ORD, you need pop down to your local Walmart for a new camouflage net and more war paint. Your slip is showing beneath the MEGA Joe-Soap login which you are hiding beneath …. :-)
Omer Bartov, a genocide scholar, will be ecstatic to educate you. His background is impeccable and second to none on this subject matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfmW0AQWV5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W5oMovARYs&t=658s
Yes he is a highly respected scholar, but expertise alone does not settle a contested political or legal question. Many other experts disagree with his interpretation of events in Gaza...
And regardless, appeals to authority isn't getting you anywhere.
globetrotter, do you honestly believe that education by YouTube is good education?
Many would not rely upon YouTube propaganda for unbiased views on any worthwhile topic.
Before the fallout with Saudi Arabia and defection from OPEC, UAE has recently been known as a Mossad mole in the Arab world. It bought US military weapons to wage wars in Yemen and Sudan not to self-defend.
It does not bewilder me when the west struggles to define commonly used but hot button terms, such as genocide, terrorists, antisemitism, war criminals. Politicians deceive the gullible mass when history knowledge is a rare commodity....
Before the fallout with Saudi Arabia and defection from OPEC, UAE has recently been known as a Mossad mole in the Arab world. It bought US military weapons to wage wars in Yemen and Sudan not to self-defend.
It does not bewilder me when the west struggles to define commonly used but hot button terms, such as genocide, terrorists, antisemitism, war criminals. Politicians deceive the gullible mass when history knowledge is a rare commodity. In the spring of 1994, I visited Jordan, Jericho and West Bank, and Israel. The cab driver did not take me to Gaza. Two years ago, I learned why. Gaza has been known to world agencies as " the biggest toxic concentration camp in the world". Everyone and everything enters and exits Gaza must have Israel permit. It is 27 miles long and 5 miles to the ocean. On October 8th, Israeli Defense Minister Gallant declared " I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly". Palestinians had created wars and destabilized other Arab governments in the region in the past. They also fought each other among a dozen factions. Paradoxically, they have been and still are experiencing an immensurable and unconscionable dehumanizing confinement and torture under occupation. Omer Bartov, Norman Ficklestein are among less than a handful of experts in Israel-Palestine conflict. Roy Casagranda is an expert in Israel- Palestine history dated back to the Ottoman Empire. You will not know them because they are neither history revisionists nor indoctrinated who populated corporate media in print, on podcast or TV. All peace deals between Palestinians and Israelis from Oslo to Abraham Accords were perpetrated by US and Israeli politicians to give the world and Palestinians the illusion and delusion, respectively, that they supported Palestinian state.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfmW0AQWV5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W5oMovARYs&t=417s
It’s not only Israeli laws that would have to be changed, EK doesn’t have the rights to do 7th freedom passenger services to/from the U.S. under the U.S. - UAE bilateral agreement. EK has cargo 7ths but not for pax, and since the US has never granted 7th freedom pax rights to any carrier, highly unlikely this could happen in our lifetimes. Now 5th freedom would be possible, just like the MXP/ATH/BOG routes. So very...
It’s not only Israeli laws that would have to be changed, EK doesn’t have the rights to do 7th freedom passenger services to/from the U.S. under the U.S. - UAE bilateral agreement. EK has cargo 7ths but not for pax, and since the US has never granted 7th freedom pax rights to any carrier, highly unlikely this could happen in our lifetimes. Now 5th freedom would be possible, just like the MXP/ATH/BOG routes. So very curious the report is proposing 7th freedoms rather than 5ths. Most probably much ado about nothing.
Not hard to circumvent 7th freedom on paper.
OK, I give up. What's the sixth freedom?
Ross, my understanding is that:
Sixth freedom flights are an international aviation right that allows an airline to carry passengers or cargo, between two foreign countries, by connecting through its home country.
For All. This man is a blinded genocidal zionist. He is obviously paid by the zionists to create havoc and deflect and confuse. Don't waste your tike reading his gibberish. He is a fool and I'm sure he's the type who cheats on his wife with the neighbors child and when he gets caught, he says, "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes". Typical of zionists like him. We see you and your lies.
Well now MEGA Joe, to whom are you addressing your rambling rhetoric?
Obviously its you dear pedo
MEGA Joe-ORD,
Accusing someone of crimes without evidence and attacking an entire group is not debate, it is harassment old bean. If you think that you have an argument, please present it without the insults. Failure to do so only serves one purpose, to illuminate your ignorance, yes?
Dear stupid zionist AeroB13a. We see you and tired of your blindness and stupid ways. I'll apologize if you apologize for supporting and defending a genocide and the modern day racist regime where they wear a hangmans noose on their lapel and laugh. Sounds very sick to me. Sounds like modern day nazis wanting to exterminate a entire group of people. Are you a nazi that supports this Israeli regime. A simple yes or no will do.
Google is our friend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
Important Context In Regard To Israel.
The genocide accusations which appear on this website are not legal precedent, but simply political accusations. These accusations come to these articles via contributors, from human rights organisations, lobbying groups and some politically motivated academics. Most of those are scholarly or policy interpretations only.
The Israeli and U.S. Government position is categorical denial of all genocide allegations, calling them baseless or politically motivated. U.S. government has opposed South Africa’s...
Important Context In Regard To Israel.
The genocide accusations which appear on this website are not legal precedent, but simply political accusations. These accusations come to these articles via contributors, from human rights organisations, lobbying groups and some politically motivated academics. Most of those are scholarly or policy interpretations only.
The Israeli and U.S. Government position is categorical denial of all genocide allegations, calling them baseless or politically motivated. U.S. government has opposed South Africa’s legal case against Israel at the International Court of Justice.
One finds it necessary to repeat that there is no legal precedent for genocidal accusations against Israel. I welcome any legal documentation which might prove otherwise. In other words …. Shut up or put up your proof.
This comment is performing a bit of sleight of hand. The issue of a legal case at the ICJ is an open one (i.e. it is still being hashed out). The problem here is that, in the broader context, there is no legal international authority that is universally recognized and submitted to. To say "there is no legal case re: genocide" is technically correct, in the sense that international law is a question of norms...
This comment is performing a bit of sleight of hand. The issue of a legal case at the ICJ is an open one (i.e. it is still being hashed out). The problem here is that, in the broader context, there is no legal international authority that is universally recognized and submitted to. To say "there is no legal case re: genocide" is technically correct, in the sense that international law is a question of norms and of selective submission by countries right now (the US frequently flouts international "law" in this manner, and is threatening to do so again). To say "Israel is not committing a genocide in the legal sense" just doesn't mean much without a binding, neutral international authority. Right now that is not possible, and the US often throws its weight around to obfuscate around war crimes committed by itself or its allies. This is nothing new.
The term "genocide" is partially descriptive, but is mostly a political and moral term. We can recognize genocides over time that have not been prosecuted by international law (and many may have predated any type of recognized international legal authority of any type). It is designed to be a moral clarion call for the international community based on a set of recognized norms and standards of conduct by the civilized world. As such, it is no surprise it is being used by advocacy groups to categorize a set of war crimes committed by a powerful country with very powerful allies. There are definition debates to be had, but "international law" is not the primary use of the term.
I take no position whether Israel's behavior meets that bar, but saying "it hasn't been found in a court of law" is sort of silly, given the power dynamics of the international system at this point. Those that want to defend the country should focus on the moral character of the state's behavior and whether its conduct ought to be acceptable to the international community. The argument above is sort of like saying "Trump is not corrupt" because the SEC has not prosecuted him for insider trading yet. It is a silly standard designed to obfuscate about the behavior rather than defending the legitimacy of it outright.
Brent, believe it or not I really do appreciate your point of view on this very prickly subject. You have certainly given me food for thought and I appreciate the opportunity to research the subject matter more thoroughly in view of your post.
Yes, most interesting and refreshing not to be treated to the usual unproven woke narrative. Time to exercise the old brain cell again.
Fair. I've personally found the term "genocide" in this context to not be helpful. Some people have resorted to the "ethnic cleansing" label because they find it to be more precise and less loaded. The question of whether Israel is acting morally in Gaza or the West Bank seems clear to me (it is not). Perhaps others disagree. The question of how we approach that is an open one (i.e. we turn a blind eye...
Fair. I've personally found the term "genocide" in this context to not be helpful. Some people have resorted to the "ethnic cleansing" label because they find it to be more precise and less loaded. The question of whether Israel is acting morally in Gaza or the West Bank seems clear to me (it is not). Perhaps others disagree. The question of how we approach that is an open one (i.e. we turn a blind eye to all manner of immoral behavior from other countries who are our allies; we ourselves are probably not the best spokespeople for moral war-making behavior in the last 60 years or so). This is the actual fight we are having in public right now, but there's a lot of rationalization ("they were provoked/justified") and distraction (Israel is a "settler colonial state" -- as are many other modern nations).
But if we are making decisions on where to fly and with which carrier to fly based on the country of origin's support of certain types of human rights, we are going to be spending a lot of time at home (which might be fine). The UAE's branding problem with this move is a real one, fair or not (though they seem to be making a bold realignment in terms of regional politics that this move fits with). Given how much I enjoy my personal privacy, I'm probably going to avoid routing through TLV if I'm heading to BKK. But anyone flying in the US tolerates quite a bit of a privacy invasion for the privilege of doing so (though of us that flew more than 25 years ago can remember just how much more humane the process was). It is really a matter of degree (and how bad you want to go to Thailand).
Brent, my word your post certainly set my poor old brain cell working overtime. Luckily I still have my old Staff College notes to refer to. Then you pour more oil onto the troubled waters. My response so far is ….
I think that both our arguments tend to simplify the subject matter somewhat. From my standpoint yours overstates the idea that legal findings are basically irrelevant because international law lacks perfect enforcement. Your statement...
Brent, my word your post certainly set my poor old brain cell working overtime. Luckily I still have my old Staff College notes to refer to. Then you pour more oil onto the troubled waters. My response so far is ….
I think that both our arguments tend to simplify the subject matter somewhat. From my standpoint yours overstates the idea that legal findings are basically irrelevant because international law lacks perfect enforcement. Your statement that the absence of a final ICJ ruling does not prove anything, is of course true. But, likewise it does not make the legal standard meaningless.
Genocide is not just a moral slogan banded about by the ‘great unwashed’. I believe that we agree that it has a very specific definition under international law. Most importantly including the requirement of intent to destroy a group as such. That element exists precisely to prevent the term from being applied loosely to every extremely destructive war. If we treat genocide primarily as a moral descriptor rather than a legal category, then the word risks losing its distinct meaning, yes?
Yes, international law is imperfect and political. But that does not mean the legal threshold is trivial or just window dressing, etc. Courts require strong evidence of specific intent because genocide is considered the gravest crime in international law. The fact that this threshold is difficult to meet is not proof of political shielding, perhaps more so it simply reflects evidentiary reality.
Most want to argue that genocide has/is occurring, however, the strongest argument is not that the courts can’t be trusted. It is showing how the evidence meets the legal criteria. Especially that of intent. Likewise, those who want to defend Israel, should demonstrate that the conduct is aimed at defeating an armed group rather than destroying a protected population. There is strong evidence to support the Israeli government’s position.
One is minded to say that reducing the debate to; no conviction yet vs. law does not matter anyway, over simplifies what is actually a very serious legal and moral question.
I will read your further post and respond accordingly after fulfilling my current domestic bliss duties.
Brent, to continue:
As much as I have enjoyed the mental stimulation of our debate, perhaps we would be best advised to agree to disagree on the subject of genocide.
Like you, I believe that the UAE are displaying signs of looking for a closer non confrontational relationship with Israel. A position shared by other Gulf states too.
If travelling east between the USA and the Far East, one is likely to fly via the...
Brent, to continue:
As much as I have enjoyed the mental stimulation of our debate, perhaps we would be best advised to agree to disagree on the subject of genocide.
Like you, I believe that the UAE are displaying signs of looking for a closer non confrontational relationship with Israel. A position shared by other Gulf states too.
If travelling east between the USA and the Far East, one is likely to fly via the UK, Europe, or, the various Middle Eastern hubs. Adding TLV does have certain advantages. It is my considered opinion that the advantages far outweigh any disadvantages which some might imagine.
Your comment appears to be adding a bit of balance until you decide to be the authority and pass judgement. Who in the world are you to stop a Country from responding to a massive act of war killing 1200 and raping hundreds of youth at a Festival. The deniers should remember that the video evidence is preserved and saved by the actual perpetraters.
If one were to equate by percentages, imagine 30,000 American...
Your comment appears to be adding a bit of balance until you decide to be the authority and pass judgement. Who in the world are you to stop a Country from responding to a massive act of war killing 1200 and raping hundreds of youth at a Festival. The deniers should remember that the video evidence is preserved and saved by the actual perpetraters.
If one were to equate by percentages, imagine 30,000 American civilians raped and murdered.
War is ugly but there is precedent and allowance for those killed while harboring combatants.
Moe, at the time of your post I was resting in the ‘arms of Morpheus’. Please tell me to whom are you addressing your comment to? Thank you.
Walter Mitty Dunn posts: “just goes to show how far the Middle East airlines have fallen and how difficult it will be for them to rebuild”. He has been asked to qualify that statement, however, once again he has failed to do so. Walter Mitty Dunn, prefers to prevaricate in his usual fashion.
To my mind this only goes to show how far his credibility has fallen and how difficult it will be for...
Walter Mitty Dunn posts: “just goes to show how far the Middle East airlines have fallen and how difficult it will be for them to rebuild”. He has been asked to qualify that statement, however, once again he has failed to do so. Walter Mitty Dunn, prefers to prevaricate in his usual fashion.
To my mind this only goes to show how far his credibility has fallen and how difficult it will be for him to rebuild it. Walter, for goodness sake stop digging lad, wake up and smell the coffee, yes?
This is political at higher levels.
The UAE wants to attack Iran for killing off its "safe" image and ruining the country. Think about the trillions of dollars the UAE has spent over the past three decades.
So the UAE perhaps has a desire to switch over from the Arab to the Israeli god?. EL AL will not be happy.
The world has also woken up to Israel's genocide, and soo perhaps El Al planes...
This is political at higher levels.
The UAE wants to attack Iran for killing off its "safe" image and ruining the country. Think about the trillions of dollars the UAE has spent over the past three decades.
So the UAE perhaps has a desire to switch over from the Arab to the Israeli god?. EL AL will not be happy.
The world has also woken up to Israel's genocide, and soo perhaps El Al planes will no longer be welcome in certain places in the near future? I don't know.
There is more to this...
Jordan, your opinion would appear to be fashionable Iranian propaganda. You are absolutely correct when you state that you “Don’t know”. However, I am certain that Ben, will appreciate your click.
Israel committing genocide is not Iranin propganda. Or any type of propaganda at all.
Really Aaron, says who?
It absolutely is. What Israel is doing in Gaza, sacrificing its own people to protect enemy civilians, is literally the opposite of genocide and anyone who has half of a brain and doesn't use TikTok must understand it. If Israel was interested in a genocide, Gaza would be over in a week and they could've avoided months of war.
I think the proper phrasing is "I'm not an expert. I'm just asking questions."
There are those who believe that the subject of Ben’s article is a total non starter. On past occasions such Emirates flights have failed to ‘takeoff’, that being the case, there is no reason why this proposal shouldn’t gain legs. Where there is a will, there is a way.
For regional stability, the proposal could be very advantageous to all concerned parties. The Abraham’s Initiative, etc, are designed to lower tensions between Israel and its...
There are those who believe that the subject of Ben’s article is a total non starter. On past occasions such Emirates flights have failed to ‘takeoff’, that being the case, there is no reason why this proposal shouldn’t gain legs. Where there is a will, there is a way.
For regional stability, the proposal could be very advantageous to all concerned parties. The Abraham’s Initiative, etc, are designed to lower tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbours, this could only help in that endeavour.
As the U.S. Airlines have chickened out of flying into Israel from the U.S. there undoubtedly is a vacuum to be filled. Therefore, commercially it might have legs.
Only the prejudice of the U.S. corporate governance would be a major stumbling block, as has been demonstrated in the past. Passenger safety in Israel is taken more seriously than in any other jurisdiction and should be applauded rather than deplored.
My bottom line is much more positive than most due mainly because of the high regard in which I hold the parties concerned.
What could play into the hands of this proposal is the lower demand for travel via Middle East (in addition to lower demand overall due to high fuel costs). Emirates will likely need to lower the capacity and this could be a profitable way to use the spare aircraft. I still considered it unlikely but less so than under normal circumstances.
Emirates should be dismantled
Why?
Unlikely going to happen.
At least for TLV-BKK.
That would save 3 hours flying EK because they don't have to fly the wrong way.
Then there is transit through TLV.
Wasting time to have your privacy invaded with intrusive questioning like a prisoner just merely for flying through. Going over the carryon every inch doesn't suddenly make a weapon appear like they hope.
Look at how much they have to piss other...
Unlikely going to happen.
At least for TLV-BKK.
That would save 3 hours flying EK because they don't have to fly the wrong way.
Then there is transit through TLV.
Wasting time to have your privacy invaded with intrusive questioning like a prisoner just merely for flying through. Going over the carryon every inch doesn't suddenly make a weapon appear like they hope.
Look at how much they have to piss other people off enough to have military with armed automatic rifles on patrol everywhere asking everyone intrusive questions and flag carriers equipped with anti aircraft defenses. Top that with the constant target of ballistic missiles.
That's the price you have to pay to visit Israel. But the retribution for flying through, way too much punishment than flying through DXB.
So JFK-TLV would work. TLV-BKK might not.
Obviously this proposal is not aimed at transit passengers but rather O&D traffic to/from Tel Aviv.
TLV was never transit friendly because they're too paranoid that transit passengers can cause mass genocide.
O&D is even worst for LY
For JFK at best they match price, at worst they dump prices. No win.
For BKK no one should be stuck an extra 3 hours unless LY dumps their prices that EK can't even match. Always lose.
No reason to destroy LY monopoly.
This is a cynical spin by the Israeli Ministry of Transportation. They have come under fire for how expensive flights have become in light of the diminishing competition and are trying to promise good news ahead of this year's general elections.
There was also a lot of talk about Wizz opening a TLV hub. That does not require a huge deal of legal work and is still very unlikely to happen.,
just goes to show how far the Middle East airlines have fallen and how difficult it will be for them to rebuild
Ok! Walter, do define your statement?
not sure who walter is but if DXB still works as a hub, they wouldn't need to be looking to start service from other countries.
and, IIRC, EK tried to fly Australia to the US and that got shot down.
but you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. in their case, they miss 100% of the shots they do take as well
What a load of old horlicks Walter!
Not only are you inept at presenting grammatically accurate written English script, but you have proven yourself to be incapable of logical reasoning as far as the subject article is concerned. You would be best advised to contain your rambling nonsense to the DL subject matter, for you are way out of your depth when it comes to the subject of World Class Airlines. Not to mention the...
What a load of old horlicks Walter!
Not only are you inept at presenting grammatically accurate written English script, but you have proven yourself to be incapable of logical reasoning as far as the subject article is concerned. You would be best advised to contain your rambling nonsense to the DL subject matter, for you are way out of your depth when it comes to the subject of World Class Airlines. Not to mention the geopolitical implications of the subject article.
Walter, stick to what you only think you know, DL. I repeat, fantasising about real World Class Airlines is way beyond your comprehension. Pretending to know that you possess any knowledge of what is occurring outside of your mother’s bonus room, will only lead to more embarrassing situations.
in other words (in American which is proper English) you can't grasp that EK has a snowball's chance in you know where of getting the right to fly 7th freedom rights from TLV.
btw, the trope is that I live in the basement but thanks for the upgrade to the bonus room - which does have windows so I can watch the planes fly by
Tim, this has always been your problem. You can't think or read properly.
Bonus room can still be the basement, or exactly the same room. There is no upgrade. There is no window.
I guess that's the British polite way of saying you live in a cellar.
Thank you for making me laugh on this very showery spring morning. I have even ‘signed in’ to reward your efforts with a ‘Helpful’ acknowledgement.
see... you switch back and forth from your "official" login to unofficial on a moment's notice and we are supposed to take you seriously?
Eskimo has never had any credibility but I haven't totally ruled you out ad infinitum but you are skating on thin ice.
and I do have lots of windows in my house... so clearly I am in neither just the bonus room or the basement.
but it always makes some...
see... you switch back and forth from your "official" login to unofficial on a moment's notice and we are supposed to take you seriously?
Eskimo has never had any credibility but I haven't totally ruled you out ad infinitum but you are skating on thin ice.
and I do have lots of windows in my house... so clearly I am in neither just the bonus room or the basement.
but it always makes some mental midgets feel better to think someone else is a 2nd class citizen when it is actually the person making the accusation.
Upset that Emirates is more profitable than Delta? Even with 20 year old seats, Emirates is still leaps and bounds ahead of Delta and always will be.
See what I mean Tim. You're referring to "2nd class citizen" yet you still use the derogatory term midget to define inferiority.
My credibility speaks for itself.
Just like you lack of, speaks for it self.
Using Latin doesn't make you more credible either. The only Latin applicable here is you being ad infiniDeltum.
N.B. logging in doesn't make you more or less credible. It just makes people who are sensitive in preventing...
See what I mean Tim. You're referring to "2nd class citizen" yet you still use the derogatory term midget to define inferiority.
My credibility speaks for itself.
Just like you lack of, speaks for it self.
Using Latin doesn't make you more credible either. The only Latin applicable here is you being ad infiniDeltum.
N.B. logging in doesn't make you more or less credible. It just makes people who are sensitive in preventing fake imposters with inferiority complex to hijack their names.
Yes, another pipe dream amidst chaos a'la United buying American. The world has lost their collective minds.
Give peace a chance.
That is the whole point of this exercise, long term peace in the Middle East.
Maybe a compromise with LY & the local gang would be for EK to only provide service on Shabat & select holidays ! ... lol
LY has a hard time logistically dealing with a 24 hour shutdown every week. Imagine an airline base operating one day per week, lol.
How strong is local and industry opposition in Israel against ministerial actions, though? In some countries it can be strong, but in some, it can be negligible.
@Ben -- Have you thought about writing an article about the "freedoms". I know what fifth is and now seventh. But what about 1-4 and 6. Yes I could google it, but I would love your take on them.
1st = overflight rights
2nd = fuel stop or maintenance stop rights, but no pax (dis)embarkation.
3rd = fly pax from your country to another
4th = fly pax from another country to yours
6th = fly pax from one point in country-X to another point in country-X, via your own country (example: NYC to L.A., connecting in Toronto)
8th = domestic cabotage, but only after arriving directly from your country (e.g. SYD-LAX-PHX, with...
1st = overflight rights
2nd = fuel stop or maintenance stop rights, but no pax (dis)embarkation.
3rd = fly pax from your country to another
4th = fly pax from another country to yours
6th = fly pax from one point in country-X to another point in country-X, via your own country (example: NYC to L.A., connecting in Toronto)
8th = domestic cabotage, but only after arriving directly from your country (e.g. SYD-LAX-PHX, with domestic rights on the LAX-PHX run).
9th = pure domestic cabotage.
Homer Simpson: “Mmm… cabotage…” *dreams of eating cabbages*
I have enjoyed some of the dialogue exchanges with certain commentators on this page. It is most refreshing to actually engage in an intellectual conversation on this website. Thank you Ben, for enabling such intercourse.
More often than not one’s mental stimulation is restrained by responding to the one line moronic mumblings from the likes of MEGA Joe-Soap, frrp, deltasax or Walter Mitty Dunn. Quite obviously, the actors behind these login names, know little of...
I have enjoyed some of the dialogue exchanges with certain commentators on this page. It is most refreshing to actually engage in an intellectual conversation on this website. Thank you Ben, for enabling such intercourse.
More often than not one’s mental stimulation is restrained by responding to the one line moronic mumblings from the likes of MEGA Joe-Soap, frrp, deltasax or Walter Mitty Dunn. Quite obviously, the actors behind these login names, know little of what they post. However, please be assured that their click is appreciated by Ben. Furthermore by myself and others who enjoy reading Ben’s flight reviews.
This is the most spiritually Israeli thing I have ever heard of. All they need to make the experience complete is complementary Labubus and Dubai Chocolate
The UAE has been getting closer and closer to Israel and the First World in general since the beginning of the 2020s. They recently left the OPEC, which doesn't always do what the First World wants them to do.
Of course the public opinion doesn't necessarily align with the governmental stance, and I've seen many who sees this negatively, but for a country like the UAE that wouldn't be a major concern over their...
The UAE has been getting closer and closer to Israel and the First World in general since the beginning of the 2020s. They recently left the OPEC, which doesn't always do what the First World wants them to do.
Of course the public opinion doesn't necessarily align with the governmental stance, and I've seen many who sees this negatively, but for a country like the UAE that wouldn't be a major concern over their goals.
That being said, Emirates flying seventh freedom flights out of Israel would still be difficult.
Do you have any idea of what "The First World" even signifies?
Ask him who Frantz Fanon was. He'll probably say that he recently got his third Michelin star.
Ask him who Frantz Fanon was. He'll probably say that he recently got his third Michelin star.
@ORD, what does he have to do with anything in this article or comment?
@ImmortalSynn, yes, worry not, I am very aware. Why don't you start with stating the part of my comment that made you mad?
"Why don't you start with stating the part of my comment that made you mad?"
The stupidity with which you used it. Duh.
human rights and democracy should be included for a start.
frrp, why exactly? Please explain.
Emirates LIVES for branding.
This has the potential to significantly impact their brand association, for quite some time to come. Hope they think long and hard about the implications and ramifications of doing this, beyond any short term incentives (assuming they get the go-ahead, or are even interested in doing so themselves).
Would you say this would be good or bad for their branding?
Look up the prevailing polled sentiment concerning Israel in both the US and Thailand, then you tell me.
Plenty of articles written about both.
Beyond sentiment in those counties you also have what it would do to their reputation regionally. A large part of their business involves moving people across the Gulf, Levant and Red Sea countires many of whom despise Isreal.
Losing your Saudi passenger flow for a single flight to and from JFK seems like a dumb move.
Oh please, leave your bubble. People who don't have moral issues with flying Emirates, airline of a brutal dictatorship with non-existing human rights, would not care about whether they operate services from Israel or not.
Wouldn't ek still need permission from the US government? I guess Scott Kirby is about to call in his favor from trump
Very cool, but what does emirates get out of this? Is this just to compete on the lucrative JFK-TLV route? Is it to get in on the popular TLV-BKK route? Both are well-served by El Al, and I can’t see Israel wanting Emirates to go head to head with their flag carrier.
With all due respect, they are not 'well-served' by LY. People have trouble finding seats on those flights right now, especially for any reasonable price for those who sit up front. LY is essentially raping the market, especially the premium market, and clearly some in Israel want to put a stop to it. Those are very popular routes, hence choosing them. This is purely about economics and capacity, not politics.
I looked at a J seat from
TLV to NRT. It was crazy expensive. Flew Air DUBi cnx to EK for considerably less. LY has a captive market and they charge accordingly.
Turkish Airlines withdrawal from Israel was a big mistake. I know politics and war. TK carried significant number of passengers, many high yielding. Israeli’s were very comfortable flying TK and they brought in lots of tourists from U.S.
*deep breathing*