Roughly a week ago, I reported on a story broken by JonNYC, about how Delta may be ditching its planned new flat bed narrow body business class, due to certification issues. There’s now an update, as Delta has confirmed this, and we have more information on the timeline.
This is the ultimate reflection of just how much of a headache aircraft seat certification issues have become, as we’ve seen the continued evolution of seats…
In this post:
Delta may swap out A321neo business class seats
Delta has a large fleet of Airbus A321neos, which are primarily used as the new domestic workhorse for fairly high demand routes. However, the airline also plans to introduce a subfleet of A321neos with a special configuration, intended specifically for premium transcontinental flights. These planes will feature flat bed business class, premium economy, and economy, so they’ll be pretty swanky planes.
While both American and United are introducing herringbone seats in business class on these types of aircraft, Delta’s plan has been to install reverse herringbone seats. Reverse herringbone seats are better than herringbone seats, plain and simple, so that’s good… well, if it actually happens.
We know that Delta has been having major issues with getting its new business class seats certified. The airline actually took delivery of its first plane with the new cabins in 2024, and immediately put it into storage. With no end to these issues in sight, Delta decided to just reconfigure these planes with an astronomical 44 domestic first class seats, and fly them on domestic routes out of Atlanta (ATL).
Recently, the belief has been that certification would take a couple of years, and that these planes would be in service with their intended configurations in 2028. However, the plan has shifted since then.
The always reliable JonNYC was first to report that Delta may abandon the the Safran Vue seat for the A321neos, and instead go with the Thompson Aero VantageSOLO seat, which is the same seat you’ll find on JetBlue A321LRs and Iberia A321XLRs, and very similar to what you’ll find on American A321XLRs.
Danny Lee at Bloomberg now confirms this report. Delta’s Chief Marketing and Product Officer, Ranjan Goswami, stated that Delta will now go with whichever supplier secures approval first, and expects certification to come no later than mid-2028.
While we’ve seen airlines switch seating suppliers, it’s interesting to see Delta essentially pitting two competing seating manufacturers against one another, and making a race of it. While seat certification can be complicated, I have to imagine that the Thompson Aero VantageSOLO product will win the race, given that it’s already being flown on the A321neos of a US-based carrier. So while customization also requires certification, that’s a much smaller hurdle to overcome.
This is a rather unfortunate outcome for Delta
Someone much smarter than me has long been claiming that while these planes will be delayed quite a bit, this will give Delta a massive advantage over competitors, over the roughly decade-long seat cycle, so it’s worth the wait. Unfortunately it looks like we’re instead going to get the worst of both worlds — Delta delayed a new fleet type by several years, only to likely end up with the same seat as everyone else.
We’ll see how this all plays out. I’ve written about how aircraft seat certification has become such a process. I recommend checking out that post, but the idea is that many seats just don’t meet the FAA’s standards in crash tests, meaning updates have to be made.
This is something that FAA Administrator Bryan Bedford even addressed in a recent interview, talking about how many new premium cabins are failing human factors tests, causing delays in safety certifications.
What’s kind of wild to me is the disconnect between regulators and aircraft seating manufacturers. Safran is a very well regarded aircraft manufacturer with a lot of experience, so I find it interesting how they can invest so much in designing a new seat, only for regulators to not give it their seal of approval.
I understand how as seats become more advanced, the certification also becomes more confusing. But why is there such a disconnect between what regulators expect, and what seat manufacturers are delivering? It just seems like that issue shouldn’t be so common.
Bottom line
Delta is having serious certification issues with its new A321neo flat bed business class seats. The first plane that was supposed to get these seats was delivered in 2024, and it spent well over a year in storage, before Delta decided to just install temporary cabins, and fly the plane on other domestic routes.
The claim has been that it’ll be 2028 when these planes are actually flying with their intended cabins. However, with no real timeline for which these seats will be certified, Delta is now pitting seat manufacturers against one another. A Delta executive claims that rather than being committed to the Safran Vue product, we’ll instead see the Thompson Aero VantageSOLO seat also in the running, and whichever seat gets certified first wins.
This could mean that Delta will go from its planned reverse herringbone seats to herringbone seats, which is quite a downgrade. But when you can’t actually get the seats certified otherwise… well…
What do you make of the prospect of Delta switching its new business class seat concept?
to summarize, DL might have had an advantage with a distinct product but now at worst DL will have a business class lie flat product for narrowbodies that is on par with B6, considered one of the best narrowbody lie flat products and better than the seats that AA and UA will lose.
at best, Safran might get its new seat certified but DL apparently has an out to get seats from Thompson with which...
to summarize, DL might have had an advantage with a distinct product but now at worst DL will have a business class lie flat product for narrowbodies that is on par with B6, considered one of the best narrowbody lie flat products and better than the seats that AA and UA will lose.
at best, Safran might get its new seat certified but DL apparently has an out to get seats from Thompson with which it has a strong and long-standing relationship.
Given that AA's 321XLR product is not receiving very good reviews and UA's will be even tighter, when it enters service, it is doubtful that either will be seen as a valid competitor to the B6 and potential DL Thompson product.
this is tempest in a teapot
Tim, summarize this.
@ Tim Dunn -- We're waiting to learn which EWR-LAX frequencies UA operates with 737-900ERs, please!! These are the important details!
I love how you fixate on the 739 to avoid admitting how many frequencies UA operates on the 757. Do you honestly think a 757 is superior to a DL 763?
you might come up w/ the flights on the 739s while you look up the flights on the 757
I never questioned about the 757.
I question the existence of 737.
I did look up and see 757 but NO 737.
So if you could point out the exact date and flight this occurred.
The question which is in minds of many is did Delta’s data queen, Timothy Wayne Dunn, produce the analysis report for this debacle of a seating project?
Furthermore, is the failure of this project the reason why he was fired by Delta?
you have truly got to the most irrelevant person on aviation social media with nothing more than a focus on trying to trash a single person. not much different than people like UA-NYC that wear their loyalty on their shirt sleeves - which is taking a beating now that DL has laid down the gauntlet to UA.
You are to be pitied no matter which user name(s) you have used before
I’ve been UA-NYC for 20 years now. You whiny little b!tch. Back when you still worked a menial job at Delta before getting fired.
100% a lock you were the last one picked on teams for PE class. And definitely wedgied at the end of the school day.
you only wish I worked at DL and got fired.
I have followed the airline industry since long before you were even born.
Wow Tim’s self worth dropped another 10% today. Since how DL does basically reflects his own pathetic life. SAD!
Get a life dude. Surely u have more important things to do than troll people. Do you have a family? Friends?
In future it's probably advisable to keep these projects under wraps until they're a sure starter. Professional market manipulators should know this.
While smart people like you and I understand this, Delta’s hubris will never allow them to think so smartly. I absolutely love the downfall we’re seeing of DL from seating certification issues, ongoing crew scheduling fiascos, operational disfunction, ABYSMAL NPS scores on its most premium domestic route (JFK-LAX) and they still now have TWO MORE YEARS until they end up with the same seat as B6 & AA! And DL still will claim it’s a “premium” airline lol
This is a pretty reasonable way to handle this issue. These seat manufacturers will continue telling them an optimistic story but if Delta waits on the one option with no external pressure to complete certification, you could easily imagine this extending beyond 2028 (if Lufthansa is any indication).
Some might argue that this isn't good because what if the lesser seat gets certified but waiting 6 more months would have netted them the better...
This is a pretty reasonable way to handle this issue. These seat manufacturers will continue telling them an optimistic story but if Delta waits on the one option with no external pressure to complete certification, you could easily imagine this extending beyond 2028 (if Lufthansa is any indication).
Some might argue that this isn't good because what if the lesser seat gets certified but waiting 6 more months would have netted them the better seat they were originally planning on. This is a false premise though as you really don't know when the slower certification would have completed and I think the sooner they can get something certified, the better as far as revenue goes.
I'm new around here, but this is important information. Delta has now officially lost their premium status. JonNYC has great intel on his Twitter. He is a Rockstar. Tim Dun has commented many times on this post with nonsense. Is it some type of AI bot?
so which user name are you pretending to be the reincarnation of?
We knew that the UA fan nut jobs would melt down when DL moved to challenge UA across the Pacific but even I am blown away at the audacity to say that they expect to regrow to parity plus with UA.
There are some seriously fat balls down in ATL these days.
Huh? Another AI failure...
@ Tim Dunn -- We're waiting to learn which EWR-LAX frequencies UA operates with 737-900ERs, please!! These are the important details!
we're also waiting to hear how UA managed to outperform DL financially in 1Q2025 and end up w/ a $1.6 billion earnings deficit for the whole year.
and flightaware has your answers. Lean into technology
That is hardly a Christian response now is it Wayne?
Even an ex-Mayor should know better than that!
post the link, Timmy. Try using technology to back up your claimed knowledge vs making it abundantly clear you either:
1. Don't know how to use technology (a distinct and real possibility)
or
2. Just flat out lie and refuse to admit when you're wrong (I mean... everyone knows it's option 2).
Your credibility is long gone.
Yeah, Max, I’d vote option 2 for Tim…
I don't come here to satisfy your or anyone else's demands.
The sweet irony is that rebel posted links to DL and UA's 2026 1st quarter financials and failed to note that UA outperformed DL in 1Q2025 and yet ended up with a $1.6 billion earnings deficit.
now that DL has confirmed exactly what I have been saying for years - it's amazing how YOU can't seem to find the posts I have made about...
I don't come here to satisfy your or anyone else's demands.
The sweet irony is that rebel posted links to DL and UA's 2026 1st quarter financials and failed to note that UA outperformed DL in 1Q2025 and yet ended up with a $1.6 billion earnings deficit.
now that DL has confirmed exactly what I have been saying for years - it's amazing how YOU can't seem to find the posts I have made about DL going after UA's TPAC operation - I will be kicking my heels up for years to come.
The fact that you can't or won't invest in flightaware historical data is not my problem.
and also doesn't prove your point that I am wrong.
In 2025:
- McDonalds made more profit than Five Guys, In-n-Out, and Whataburger
- Hyundai made more profit than BMW
- Hyundai made more profit than Subaru, Porsche, and Ferrari combined
- The most profitable sports franchises for the four most popular US Sports were the Dallas Cowboys (missed the playoffs), Golden State Warriors (eliminated from playoffs in play-in series), Edmonton Oilers (lost in first round of playoffs), and the NY Yankees...
In 2025:
- McDonalds made more profit than Five Guys, In-n-Out, and Whataburger
- Hyundai made more profit than BMW
- Hyundai made more profit than Subaru, Porsche, and Ferrari combined
- The most profitable sports franchises for the four most popular US Sports were the Dallas Cowboys (missed the playoffs), Golden State Warriors (eliminated from playoffs in play-in series), Edmonton Oilers (lost in first round of playoffs), and the NY Yankees (lost first series in playoffs).
"Most profitable" does not automatically equate with providing a quality product to customers. It has everything to do with providing a good return to investors.
…. and why he was sacked by DL?
He was caught weaing an A350-1000 shirt with his pants down jerking off on some Delta RASM spreadsheets and repeating between 'premium' or 'profits' until he's done.
Being an outsourced non-union janitor, he was let go before he could even finish his 9 paragraphs of fluff explaining why he did it.
He had to fly UA home and claim he couldn't finish his job because UA mishandled his package.
UA superior RASM probably made him soft.
last few months really just have not been kind to DL
only if you selectively ignore all the other competitive reality.
Do you always focus on what makes someone else look bad and ignore "your" own bad news?
Wayne that is exactly what you are doing on this website …. ignoring all questions which you don’t like?
Is that why DL put you in their bin?
DL and Safran undoubtedly have come to an agreement to let DL out of its contract, and there might have been a "cannot certify" clause from the beginnning of DL's contract for a new narrowbody lie flat seat.
The bigger issue is that DL is willing to say they will go with the Thompson seat which probably says they have production slots (perhaps as an option that is being paid for by Safran). DL has...
DL and Safran undoubtedly have come to an agreement to let DL out of its contract, and there might have been a "cannot certify" clause from the beginnning of DL's contract for a new narrowbody lie flat seat.
The bigger issue is that DL is willing to say they will go with the Thompson seat which probably says they have production slots (perhaps as an option that is being paid for by Safran). DL has a lot of Thompson seats in service so both suppliers are willing to try to sort out this mess which really will have no meaningful competitive difference in a couple years.
One has to ask if the decision to go for Safran as opposed to Thompson seats, was following an analysis carried out by Delta Dunn? It was such a gamble right from the beginning.
Is that why Delta ditched you Walter?
how very mature of you.
You can't engage in the conversation so you resort to personal attacks.
I have had nothing to do with any decisions regarding seats. for any airline. Ever.
Remember that DL never really wanted to participate in the longhaul premium cabin narrowbody race but has to competitively do it.
DL tried to get a differentiated product and Safran still might come through.
Are you - if you are seriously capable...
how very mature of you.
You can't engage in the conversation so you resort to personal attacks.
I have had nothing to do with any decisions regarding seats. for any airline. Ever.
Remember that DL never really wanted to participate in the longhaul premium cabin narrowbody race but has to competitively do it.
DL tried to get a differentiated product and Safran still might come through.
Are you - if you are seriously capable of thinking - saying that a couple year delay for business class seats on 20 aircraft is worse than AA, AS, WN and UA's delays of far larger numbers of Boeing aircraft that also involved groundings?
If you and others were far less prone to throw rocks, you could honestly see that DL has actually managed any number of supply chain issues far better than the industry
Wayne you position yourself in a glass house, “Throw rocks” at anyone who asks you a simple question and then loose your rag when the glass comes tumbling down.
Is that why DL sacked you pastor?
thank you JonNYC for being the internet's #1 premier voice on all things Delta!
he has managed to get a whole lot of DL intel after DL employees - like WN's - not sharing much.
the biggest story is not coming from leaks but from exec statements, exactly what Kirby has done for years.
we could be in a new era of trash talk in the industry
We are suffering your “Trash talk” now Wayne.
Is that why Delta sacked you?
can you stick to one reason why you "think" DL canned me.
You don't need to worry about facts since we know you have no access to them, let alone the ability to adhere to them.
and the trash talking is coming from DL execs, not me, over the past couple days.
I have said for years that DL would take on UA's TPAC position by regrowing but in no way could I have been...
can you stick to one reason why you "think" DL canned me.
You don't need to worry about facts since we know you have no access to them, let alone the ability to adhere to them.
and the trash talking is coming from DL execs, not me, over the past couple days.
I have said for years that DL would take on UA's TPAC position by regrowing but in no way could I have been prepared for a statement that DL intends to outclass UA.
as noted, there are a whole lot of sore backsides in UA land over the past week.
There's your trash talk - and it apparenlty isn't going away for years to come.
Wayne I’m asking you to come clean and tell all your ‘fans’ why we “Think DL canned” you?
You know that a good God fearing Shepherd cannot tell a lie, is that why you will do anything to avoid having to tell lies?
Is it canned or sh*t-canned?
The most uncomfortable seats are the "business class" , duh .
It's a seat. Let's move on.
Ok, sounds good for you: enjoy last-row, middle, no-recline, next to the lav.
1990 ... Nonsense . The formerly customer-friendly airlines had good , clean , comfortable seats . Yet the airlines decided to fleece the customers and installed weird , narrow , off-kilter seats . And also decided to serve girl food . For higher increased fares . Airlines goosed the ganders .
Alert, nothing says 'I haven't flown business class since 1990' quite like your comment above.
You say this outcome could be the worst of both worlds but honestly, at some point you have to cut your losses and move forward.
I would actually see this as a rational move, treating the investment and delays as a sunk cost, and trying to get to the revenue opportunity faster. In my opinion, Lufthansa would have been smart to do this with their disastrous Allegris seat but they really dug their heals...
You say this outcome could be the worst of both worlds but honestly, at some point you have to cut your losses and move forward.
I would actually see this as a rational move, treating the investment and delays as a sunk cost, and trying to get to the revenue opportunity faster. In my opinion, Lufthansa would have been smart to do this with their disastrous Allegris seat but they really dug their heals in, and I don't know that the business benefited in any way from that decision.
I feel I have already commented on this topic so this will be the last I promise. If the plane crashes its likely everyone is going to die regardless of the seat certification. Sad but true. I wish the Government would spend more on ATC modernization and airport security rather than certifying seats in the forward/premium cabins.
Properly designed, tested and certified seats likely saved a lot of lives in the Toronto and LGA accidents.
I feel I have already commented on this topic so this will be the last I promise. If the plane crashes its likely everyone is going to die regardless of the seat certification. Sad but true. I wish the Government would spend more on ATC modernization and airport security rather than certifying seats in the forward/premium cabins.
"I hope you realize in your pea-sized brains that this is what successful and well run companies like Delta do. Change when they need to, and still continue to provide exceptional revenue and class leading RASM, CASM, PASM. And what you also fail to realize is that Delta will continue to take delivery of Airbus planes to support further service expansion, something that Kirby can only dream of doing! The DOT data says that what...
"I hope you realize in your pea-sized brains that this is what successful and well run companies like Delta do. Change when they need to, and still continue to provide exceptional revenue and class leading RASM, CASM, PASM. And what you also fail to realize is that Delta will continue to take delivery of Airbus planes to support further service expansion, something that Kirby can only dream of doing! The DOT data says that what they are doing is right, regardless of what Ben and the other UA apologists will claim about useless NPS."
"This is why we need EU261 in the US."
"Old bean."
"No one cares about the evil Delta or what anyone from Noo-Yawk says."
Did I get it right?
The interesting question is why is Delta so good at so many things and so poor at managing aircraft interior installations and renovations? Anyone?
People seem to like D1 suites, but Delta started adding them to their int'l wide body aircraft in 2017 and only 80 aircraft will have them installed by the end of 2026? That’s only 10/year and well less than half of their 179 wide body aircraft fleet? Word is they are...
The interesting question is why is Delta so good at so many things and so poor at managing aircraft interior installations and renovations? Anyone?
People seem to like D1 suites, but Delta started adding them to their int'l wide body aircraft in 2017 and only 80 aircraft will have them installed by the end of 2026? That’s only 10/year and well less than half of their 179 wide body aircraft fleet? Word is they are adding a 4th J seat going away from the current D1 suite so the product consistency will continue to suffer.
Safran Cirrus I: A332s & A333s
Thompson Vantage: B767s
Thompson Vantage XL: A339s, A350s
Thompson Aero Vantage NOVA?: A35Xs (2027?) 78Xs (2031): ?
Lots of issues
No wifi over most of Pacific and no LEO until 2028, 2029?
717 non-compliant new seats (back to drawing board), no screens, no wifi
739s 33 Lion Air in 10/23 just started getting refurbished with screens & wifi
764 non-D1 suites mess
777 refurbed (then the pseudo cargo transformation prior to retiring)
359s Latam took four years to get interiors installed on nine planes
A350s with no gasper vents
A321 CEOs with small overhead bins
A321 NEOs lie flats disapproved (fire resistance), engines removed then reinstalled, 44 recliner FC seats until new lie flats in 2028?, W&B issues.
the interesting OBSERVATION is that you refuse to accept responsibliity for UA's decisions while nitpicking about decisions other airlines make, esp. DL - because of your deep seated inability to admit that UA is just a second tier airline that is inferior to DL.
feel free to let us know the timelines for any of the projects that you think were "delayed" at DL.
you won't because none of them were intended to be...
the interesting OBSERVATION is that you refuse to accept responsibliity for UA's decisions while nitpicking about decisions other airlines make, esp. DL - because of your deep seated inability to admit that UA is just a second tier airline that is inferior to DL.
feel free to let us know the timelines for any of the projects that you think were "delayed" at DL.
you won't because none of them were intended to be in and out in 1 year projects.
DL has bought used aircraft including widebodies. UA can't even keep an agreement with Airbus so they have been subject to UA's delays on the 787
there really is nothing any different about DL's supply chain issues from anyone else's other than your incessant need to throw poop
LTD, "feel free to let us know the timelines for any of the projects that you think were "delayed" at DL."
The article is about the DL 321neo lie-flat delays. Then there are 717s no screens/wifi, 73Rs, Pacific wifi and a myriad of other delayed product offerings that you yourself have acknowledged.
If your point is that Delta is fine with the lack of product consistency and leaving the 73Rs, LATAM 359s and other...
LTD, "feel free to let us know the timelines for any of the projects that you think were "delayed" at DL."
The article is about the DL 321neo lie-flat delays. Then there are 717s no screens/wifi, 73Rs, Pacific wifi and a myriad of other delayed product offerings that you yourself have acknowledged.
If your point is that Delta is fine with the lack of product consistency and leaving the 73Rs, LATAM 359s and other used aircraft without the DL standard for years along with the 767 mess then that is even worse.
The D1 suite is indicative of the problem. If it is a better suite then maybe DL has learned that it was too good for the $ it generated since DL is reportedly copying AA & UA with their 4th int'l J-suite. And it took ten years to get just 80 D1 suites into int'l wide bodies. UA installed Polaris suites, PP & EP in its entire int'l WB fleet (207 aircraft) at three times the pace. Looks like UA did a far better job of predicting what passengers willing to pay for.
UA knocked it out of the park with their massive aircraft orders at favorable terms and timelines during Covid. It's structural, permanent, irreversible and just a matter of time.
rebel, remind us, what does LTD stand for? *nudge nudge*
rebel can only take responsibility if they’re responsible… I doubt that that is the case.
Wayne you are the biggest “Poop” thrower on this website, is that why Delta shovelled you out of the door?
let's not forget the delays that AA and UA faced by relying on Boeing as a supplier for widebody aircraft while DL received more new widebodies from Airbus between 2023-4 than AA, AS, and UA combined received from Boeing.
UA's need to keep its 777-200s in service is leading to dozens of grounded aircraft because the parts just aren't available for the PW engines.
Supply chain issues happen.
If up to 20 A321NEOs have...
let's not forget the delays that AA and UA faced by relying on Boeing as a supplier for widebody aircraft while DL received more new widebodies from Airbus between 2023-4 than AA, AS, and UA combined received from Boeing.
UA's need to keep its 777-200s in service is leading to dozens of grounded aircraft because the parts just aren't available for the PW engines.
Supply chain issues happen.
If up to 20 A321NEOs have to get the same product as B6 has - which is better than what AA has and UA will have - then DL has managed supply chain issues quite well
Airlines have far more control and therefore responsibility for/over things like interiors than aircraft deliveries. Apples and oranges.
it is apples to apples.
you just need to pick and toss out what supports your narrative.
Not at all. It's obvious that as good as Delta is at so many things, it is glaring how bad they are at managing aircraft interiors and hard product consistency.
To be fair, the right way to manage product consistency is subjective. I personally prefer a consistent hard product and appreciate that United is so consistent.
However, it is fair and reasonable for Delta to say they do not care about or need to value hard product consistency because they manage it where it drives a premium and in plenty of markets the consumer doesn't notice or wouldn't pay for the better hard product....
To be fair, the right way to manage product consistency is subjective. I personally prefer a consistent hard product and appreciate that United is so consistent.
However, it is fair and reasonable for Delta to say they do not care about or need to value hard product consistency because they manage it where it drives a premium and in plenty of markets the consumer doesn't notice or wouldn't pay for the better hard product. So saying they are bad at managing hard product consistency mainly depends on whether they ever had that goal. If there isn't a goal to achieve that, they aren't really bad at it.
And I'm no Delta apologist - there are plenty of things I don't like about them and 98% of my flying is on United so this is really just armchair observation.
What can I say? Delta is a quitter!
Spohr: Not in my playbook!
Delthansa Allegris
Ben says, "Reverse herringbone seats are better than herringbone seats, plain and simple"
That's your opinion with which I completely disagree. In my opinion it is better to have one's head away from the aisle (quieter) and near the window so it is easier to look out. It is also easier for F/As to serve meals with reverse herringbone.
Do you have any customer data on this?
translation.
AA and UA's business class products are set to be losers.
DL had a chance but it might have been nixed.
the DL 767 will end up being the best transcon aircraft.
Walter Mitty Dunn posts:
“AA and UA's business class products are set to be losers” …. I ask why?
“DL had a chance but it might have been nixed” …. I ask why?
“the DL 767 will end up being the best transcon aircraft” …. again, I ask why?
Ok, Walter this is your chance to sink or swim …. which will it be?
One is ever hopeful that Pilot Paul reads this post.
Afterthought. Upon checking the Delta Airlines aircraft data one can see that the average age of Delta’s Boeing 767-300ER fleet is roughly 28–30 years old.
Walter Mitty Dunn, claims that “the DL 767 will end up being the best transcon aircraft” …. what exactly does that statement mean Walter?
LTD says, "AA and UA's business class products are set to be losers."
Then why is DL copying AA & UA on their new int'l wide body J seat in their 35Xs and perhaps on the A321s also? You know what they say about imitation.
Touché rebel, touché …. :-)
hey, rebel, remind us, what does LTD stand for?
Should have gone with Stelia Opera.
Delta Airlines have clearly been caught with their pants down and now are being ‘rear ended’ by the regulators. When will these numpties stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
B6 must be laughing up their sleeves at this horlicks!
Lick what-now? No need to get so testy… or anal-retentive… ;-)
There are a whole lot bigger issues that B6 has to overcome in order to effectively compete with Delta than the type of premium business class seat. Delta has simply cleaned JetBlue’s Clock in New York and Boston over the past decade and that is why this is basically a nine issue
But Walter, B6 have overcome one very basic challenge which Delta Airlines has categorically failed to achieve …. B6 have Airbus narrow bodied aircraft flying with approved lay flat seats, Yes?
How many years of use do have B6 have to record before Delta Airlines, will put a single approved airframe into service?
Chances are that B6 will complete a full cabin refurbishment before a single Delta aircraft enters service.
And yet B6 is circling the toilet. Lie flat didn’t make a difference.
Case closed
As expected!
Walter Mitty Dunn has NO real answer to the facts of this Delta Airlines faux pas.
Your outright surrender is graciously accepted Walter, thank you.
AA and B6 have new generation lie flat seats flying on narrowbody aircraft. DL and UA do not at this point.
AA's product has been poorly received according to reports.
If DL is "forced" to use the same product B6 has, they will be far better off than what AA and UA have.
and the DL 767-300ER still might be the best domestic premium configured aircraft with two aisles and direct aisle access.
They cleaned jetBlue's what-now?? ClOCK?
yes, clock.
as in wrist-worn timekeeper.
That would be a "watch", Timbits, as in "Watch and see where Delta will screw the pooch next."
I think at this point Delta has to take what they can get. If Safran can't get this across the line by 2028 can Delta really afford to fall further behind on lie flat seats on narrowbodies especially seeing United is installing them on quite a few A321NEO coastliners in addition to their A321XLR fleet.
Safran Vue would have been a great seat compared to Thomson Vantage but Delta can no longer afford to...
I think at this point Delta has to take what they can get. If Safran can't get this across the line by 2028 can Delta really afford to fall further behind on lie flat seats on narrowbodies especially seeing United is installing them on quite a few A321NEO coastliners in addition to their A321XLR fleet.
Safran Vue would have been a great seat compared to Thomson Vantage but Delta can no longer afford to wait especially if Safran hasn't made significant progress with the redesign of the Vue seat as we near the halfway mark of 2026.
This is a fair assessment. And Delta wants to retire 757 but it cannot do so until it has a premium A321 product.
Sometimes, you just accept reality and realize that you have to build on other advantages of which Delta has plenty
Walter, you insist upon waffling on about anything off subject if you think that you can prolong your point of view. Even when you are proved wrong and cannot mount an accurate counter argument.
Go no then Walter, I will bite …. do list any “Other advantages” which Delta Airlines has over the B6 seat and cabin configuration? However, how you are going to justify redundant aircraft is bound to be entertaining.
Higher revenue. Lower fuel costs. Profits which will allow Delta to outlast anyone
…. and yet Delta Airlines cannot put an approved lay flat seat in brand new narrow body aircraft. Obstinate denial of the facts only weakens your argument Walter.
was really pulling for delta here because i thought they might become a premium airline but with current leadership there, i always assumed this was the likely outcome, unfortunately
Marketing departments are so eager to get the circle-jerk splash-shots that they announce these "innovations" far too early, long before anything has even been certified. Maybe hold back until the FAA has actually signed-off on the biscuit before you go public with your plans to make it soggy?
the difference between DL and AA, B6 and UA is that DL said from the beginning that it did not want narrowbody TATL ops and only built its 321NEOs to do 6 hour flights.
DL's longhaul operation will continue to be built around widebodies which will continue to have a superior cabin experience.
People perceive narrowbody longhaul operations as inferior.
DL at worst will have the same crappy narrowbody interior on its "premium"...
the difference between DL and AA, B6 and UA is that DL said from the beginning that it did not want narrowbody TATL ops and only built its 321NEOs to do 6 hour flights.
DL's longhaul operation will continue to be built around widebodies which will continue to have a superior cabin experience.
People perceive narrowbody longhaul operations as inferior.
DL at worst will have the same crappy narrowbody interior on its "premium" transcon flights as everyone else but the 763ER might look even better.
Both you Walter and Delta Airlines have been caught with your proverbial pants down! You are deep in a hole of your own making and would be best advised to stop digging lad. Waffle and bull’s excrement will not help your credibility one iota.
Tim, “Delta at worst will have the same crappy seats as everyone else” - sure but they’ll do it 4 years later lol. This is why you pay the Delta premium folks!
I honestly don't understand the point of blocking seat certification of seats at the front due to crash safety issues. Like... if the worst comes to pass... u ded no matter what right???
They gotta the most competent regulators ever.
"how many new premium cabins are failing human factors tests, causing delays in safety certifications."
Well how many of these "premium cabins" are on 737MAX. And not just JT610 or ET302, any MAX.
How many human factors they tested on those planes?
Those clowns are bunch of incompetent jokes.
Just go with what jetBlue, American, and United are doing. Lie-flat better than recliner. It’s Coke vs. Pepsi. Carbonated sugar water.
Totally disagree. Reverse herringbone is so much better and worth the wait
The wait is 'never' so....
Lol, Delta sucks. They lose no matter what.
Maybe one day they can be a real airline with a competitive loyalty program, if they try really hard to prioritize customers.
Nah, they don’t ‘suck.’ They just messed up on this, and are having to back-track. Delta still has decent on-board passenger experience, like actual IFE screens, unlike American or Alaska, and half of United; complimentary WiFi on most aircraft; okay food and snacks; and most of their lounges are good enough… oh, but, if there’s a tech/staffing/weather issue, and the devaluation of their loyalty program, yeah, then they blow.
right, DL has potential, they just need to escort the executive team out to the parking lot
THIS aircraft sucks, DL or otherwise. It should be avoided in herringbone configuration. Period. By the time these horrible aircraft are common, perhaps LH will be done reconfiguring their fleet and might have come to their senses with the outrageous award change fees.
Gene, I’m still on the fence. Suck? Blow? Either way, I’m open to new aircraft. XLR is the best replacement for aging 757. Boeing really messed up on the Max. Sure, airlines could do as SQ did with its Max and actually add lie-flat up-front, but, hey, that’d take ‘effort’ and we’re all out of it.
1990, "Delta still has decent on-board passenger experience, like actual IFE screens, unlike American or Alaska, and half of United"
Wrong. Aircraft with seatback IFE: UA 87%, DL: 89% ? (73Rs & 717s)
And United's has far newer seatback IFE than DL most of which Bluetooth and far better/larger screens.
So, rebel, help Gene and I settle this, does Delta 'suck' or 'blow'?
As any gay man like myself can tell you, the fight isn't between suck and blow. It's between spit and swallow.
Your command of the facts and DL's ability to manage aircraft interiors blow.
Honestly, what is with these seat certification issues? This is not good for anyone imo as this blocks innovation.
So many new seats have been delayed, or part of their functionality isn't approved, so a lot of these "suites" are just regular seats since their doors aren't allowed to be used.
Delta must've expected even longer delays for their reverse herringbone seats than already projected for them to do such a pivot.
Kinda sad that the end result is that business claas is now getting WORSE not better. Like it or not, I guess we are stuck with these shitty airplanes for the next 20 years. Will definitely br steering my business elaewhere...
Your loss old sock, everyone who knows, knows how much better the Airbus is in comparison to the Max for example. Even Walter Mitty Dunn, knows the truth but would never dare to admit it on this medium.
So, in essence try it for yourself, onboard a World Class Airline preferably, however, if stateside, do try out a B6 offering, yes?
Any MAX is superior to any Airbus. And I'm saying that the MAX 7 is better than the ugly fat white whale that everyone overrates.
…. :-) …. You crack me up ORD.
How would you know anything about Airbus products if you have no experience of it.. come, come ORD, joking apart, get real for a change …. :-)
lol, hilarious claim. Airbus beats Boeing in the passenger comfort competition hands down. Smooth quiet ride in the A380 or A350 vs the obnoxiously loud 777. You do you in your Boeing flan club.
Why go with a herringbone seat when there are reverse hearing bones that have actually been approved?
The only narrowbody reverse herringbone seat currently certified is Stelia Opera, however, its pitch is 36"-38".
Safran claimed minimum 33" pitch with Vue, and their selling point was "the densest reverse herringbone seat".
Delta had planned the LOPA with Vue, so Stelia Opera cannot fit in the footprint.
Thompson Vantage Solo, the most common narrowbody herringbone seat, is currently pitched 32"-34" which perfectly fits in there.
It's not only Delta that is...
The only narrowbody reverse herringbone seat currently certified is Stelia Opera, however, its pitch is 36"-38".
Safran claimed minimum 33" pitch with Vue, and their selling point was "the densest reverse herringbone seat".
Delta had planned the LOPA with Vue, so Stelia Opera cannot fit in the footprint.
Thompson Vantage Solo, the most common narrowbody herringbone seat, is currently pitched 32"-34" which perfectly fits in there.
It's not only Delta that is impacted by the certification failure of Safran Vue.
FlyDubai also had a media event with Vue mockups 3 years ago, and no one's talking about it now.
thank you.
the desire is to get a better business class seat on a narrowbody and if it succeeds, it would give the airlines that have it an advantage.
all this says is that narrowbody aircraft will always be inferior and having to add a seat nobody likes only adds insult to injury
Walter, the more you prattle on about why Delta has FAILED, the less credible your posts become. Anyone with a brain cell can see that by the time Delta get their act together, they will be so far behind the rest of the pack, that they will never regain the lost ground.
Delta Airlines have FAILED, FAILED, FAILED. Yet you still attempt to muddy the waters with off subject rhetoric just to provide Ben, with clicks. Your mummy must be proud.
The A321 neo needs to stop being used for transoceanic flights if these horrible seats will be our only choice.
I have a hard time figuring out why the seat manufacturers/airlines don’t accurately test their seats to the FAA standards before actually turning them over to the FAA for certification. I would think that their quality and compliance processes would require it. Unfortunately, many companies succumb to the intoxicating fumes constantly emanating from their own marketing departments. The mission of all their workers is to sign off on delivering what marketing says regardless of whether...
I have a hard time figuring out why the seat manufacturers/airlines don’t accurately test their seats to the FAA standards before actually turning them over to the FAA for certification. I would think that their quality and compliance processes would require it. Unfortunately, many companies succumb to the intoxicating fumes constantly emanating from their own marketing departments. The mission of all their workers is to sign off on delivering what marketing says regardless of whether it’s true. And now we have AI to reinforce and verify to the geniuses of design and engineering that they are in fact geniuses even if their outputs are wrong.
You know who didn't sponsor Sean Duffy's road trip.
That's the real genius.
You raise the question I have. Why are SO many airlines/manufacturers having trouble getting these certified. I don’t want to make it sound simple, I am sure it is very complicated. That being said are the requirements not clear? How can they not have designed them to meet all requirements from the get go?
Wild seat manufacturers don’t do more to ensure certification before selling a product. Wonder if they have skin in the game with this blunder
JonNYC has more credibility in his pinky finger than Tiny Timmy D does in his whole body, so this likely rings true.
Wow Delta. SAD. Premium factor dropping daily now.
Southwest and United are crushing Delta. Delta's management screwed up on their WiFi decision and their seat selection. They have lost their premium label.
Garbage airline, garbage airplane, garbage seat. And when you said "swanky", you accidentally added an "s".
So ORD!
Your number one Airline is?
Your number one Aircraft is?
Your number one seat is?
Please do not repeat the trials and tribulations of Walter Mitty Dunn, by refusing to offer answers to very simple questions …. Ok?
Number one airline: right now, American. Was United. They at least have the class to hub at my home.
Number one aircraft: widebody, 787-9. Narrowbody mainline, 737 MAX 9. Narrowbody regional, CRJ-550. I haven't flown on a E195-E2, but I know it's better than Franco-Canadian Spaghetti-Os.
Number one seat: I don't care. Just as long as my ass fits in it and it comes with unlimited adult beverages.
There, I answered your questions.
Absolutely, thank you ORD, much appreciated.
It is such a pity that Walter Mitty Dunn is not so forthcoming.
Tim say it's not true! This is Delta you tell us they are perfect. What happened Tim tell us all how this is Uniteds fault.
Unfortunately they need to switch if their supplier can't get it approved. Agree with Pilot Paul that having some diversity in offerings is always a good thing. These comments about Tim are more annoying than Tim ever was or is. Need to start filtering them out. Only two of seven comments so far aren't about him.
Nice try Tim.
I agree with you generally Re: Queen sTD -- but when you spend your entire life telling everyone else they're wrong because Delta is always "excellence and strategy defined" absent any data or reality whatsoever -- people are allowed a tad bit of Schadenfreude.
But unlike sTD, that's just my opinion. not a fake fact ;)
Most people on here, including me, have nothing against Delta generally except that sTD personifies to a crazy...
I agree with you generally Re: Queen sTD -- but when you spend your entire life telling everyone else they're wrong because Delta is always "excellence and strategy defined" absent any data or reality whatsoever -- people are allowed a tad bit of Schadenfreude.
But unlike sTD, that's just my opinion. not a fake fact ;)
Most people on here, including me, have nothing against Delta generally except that sTD personifies to a crazy extreme degree the weird pride most delta employees have about Delta with little knowledge or interest in knowledge about the rest of the industry -- instead they tend to just drink the kool-aid.
Delta does a lot of great things and has made a LOT of money on credit cards and absolutely crushing (!) unionization efforts under weird marketing efforts for financial benefit but it does annoy others that actually look at the real delta advantages to separate "premium" effect from monopoly yields and union bashing.
the price of innovating is that some things don't work at least in time for the market.
the fixation that some have on a person while failing to understand the process is beyond psychotic.
the hypocrisy is how much the rest of the industry follows DL and copies DL's strategies - and yet continue to come up short.
What has the rest of the industry followed with delta?
High Speed wifi? Nope. Delta still doesn't have it and followed AA among the US3
Free wifi? That was B6.
Premium Economy? no. that was AA in the US
Y+? That was United
Business class lounges? that was AA
Delta led in reducing seat pitch to 30" in economy and destroying consumer value for mileage programs. I'll give you that.
NYC hub? Delta was...
What has the rest of the industry followed with delta?
High Speed wifi? Nope. Delta still doesn't have it and followed AA among the US3
Free wifi? That was B6.
Premium Economy? no. that was AA in the US
Y+? That was United
Business class lounges? that was AA
Delta led in reducing seat pitch to 30" in economy and destroying consumer value for mileage programs. I'll give you that.
NYC hub? Delta was definitely a follower there
Trying to become the biggest in LA? following AA and UA there but still a long term fail.
Max, thank you so much for aiding me in my knowledge about Delta Airlines and the other carriers which you mentioned.
Asking Tim Dunn to qualify his mumblings is like trying to extract blood from a stone. Even insulting him by addressing him as Walter Mitty Dunn, has no effect. He either will not, or I suspect cannot, defend most of his compulsive, obsessive tendencies in regard to Delta Airlines.
As a frequent transcon flyer who prefers Delta but sometimes flies United and JetBlue (and very occasionally American), Delta – if you're reading this – PLEASE hold out for reverse herringbone seats... The herringbone seats are just not it. We will happily wait.
No need to pick on Tim with this one. This isn't really good news for anyone.
Having Delta go with the same seat as the competitor(s) isn't good. Competition leads to innovation, improved service, etc. I'd like to see Delta use a different product rather than seeing them forced to offer the same product due to certification issues.
If this does happen, only difference will be the color of the trim, I suppose.
Paul, one would find it extremely difficult to disagree with much of what you say about seat competition, etc. However, please do not be tempted to side with Timmy.
Last year, I imagined Timmy as a much maligned character. It appeared to me, at that time, that he was the victim of much mirth.
Much later I tried to understand what he was gibbering on about by asking what I believed to be...
Paul, one would find it extremely difficult to disagree with much of what you say about seat competition, etc. However, please do not be tempted to side with Timmy.
Last year, I imagined Timmy as a much maligned character. It appeared to me, at that time, that he was the victim of much mirth.
Much later I tried to understand what he was gibbering on about by asking what I believed to be pertinent questions. I soon discovered that like many others before me, he is incapable of answering straight questions. Especially if by doing so it might expose a flaw in his reasoning. He is never wrong, he is obsessed with the righteousness of Delta Airlines and cannot abide anyone who questions the content of his posts.
I have always believed that there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers. If someone does not understand something then they have a right to ask for clarification. If the response is an obtrusive rebuttal, then in my book it constitutes a stupid answer.
Tim Dunn is a Walter Mitty character of no known aviation experience. He has alluded to being a pilot, however, when one asked the question on various occasions he totally ignored them. He often refuses to add legs to his statements about Delta, or, to provide any evidence of his claims against other airlines. His redeeming features as far as this website is concerned, is that he provides clicks to Ben’s account by promoting debate.
Personally, I like the character as he offers me an opportunity to exercise my brain cell now that my AOP-6 is crated and on its way to the RSA.
As delicious as the Timmy schadenfreude is, this would be a rather unfortunate development given the superiority of reverse herringbone seats. We hardly need further Vantage Solo proliferation.
Oh, but I thought Delta was waiting for this seat so it can be much better than UA and AA, despite the lack of a lie flat in an NEO for years. I wonder what the switch up was for.
Where is TIMMY TIM? :D
Most premiumest cancellation humanity has ever seen
Now this is a premium cancellation
Here before Dim Tunn attacks Ben for posting something so slanderous against D.
hey, don't slander me. it's teh other guy who's the problem
Yikes.