We’re currently seeing a bit of an inflight Wi-Fi revolution, with an increasing number of airlines signing up for Starlink, bringing fast and free connectivity to the skies. I might not be a huge fan of Elon Musk (to put it politely), but I can respect that Starlink is currently the best such offering, and having truly high speed inflight connectivity is a game changer.
Along those lines, one airline recently made a surprising announcement, and we now have some more insights into why. While I covered this yesterday, Musk has just chimed in as well, and has shared additional insights into why things played out the way they did.
In this post:
Why Delta chose Amazon Leo over Starlink for inflight Wi-Fi
Several weeks ago, Delta announced plans to introduce Amazon Leo for its inflight connectivity. This was a big surprising to many people. I’m sure Amazon Leo will be great when it’s available, but:
- Best case scenario, it’ll be launched in 2028
- Delta has only announced plans to install this on 500 aircraft, making up roughly half of the fleet
What’s so wild here is that United is increasingly trying to compete with Delta, and United is currently rolling out Starlink Wi-Fi, with installation expected to be completed by the end of 2027. That means that United will have the fastest possible inflight connection on all planes before Delta even has a single plane configured with next generation connectivity, best case scenario.
Logically, you might be thinking “well, what were Delta executives thinking?” After all, we knew Delta had discussions with SpaceX over Starlink, but they fell through. View from the Wing flags this explanation about why the deal went the way that it did:
Billionaire Ron Baron — an early investor in Tesla & SpaceX — just said on CNBC that the Starlink deal with Delta Air Lines fell through because Delta insisted Starlink access would sit behind Delta’s branded portal/offering.
At the end of March, Delta announced a deal with Amazon’s Leo network. SpaceX currently has about 10,000 satellites in orbit, with more launches per year than anyone else. Leo has about 300 as of now.
I get the fanaticism around brand-building. I really do. But is this one step too far?
After this got some publicity, Elon Musk slightly corrected this claim, though it seems like the concept is basically the same, as he wrote the following:
SpaceX requires that there be no annoying “portal” to use Starlink. Starlink WiFi must just work effortlessly every time, as though you were at home. Delta wanted to make it painful, difficult and expensive for their customers. Hard to see how that is a winning strategy.
The idea is that Starlink has certain rules around how its service can be used (including that access needs to be free), and the requirement is that there can’t be a complicated portal for logging in. Meanwhile Delta has its “Delta Sync” concept, whereby it wants everything related to entertainment and connectivity to exclusively have the Delta Sync branding, and to be behind that portal.
Now, Musk is obviously full of it as well, because we know Delta wasn’t looking to make it “expensive” for its customers. There’s no way Delta would’ve dreamed of charging for Starlink.
I think this was a major mistake on Delta’s part
You’d have to bury your head in the sand to not acknowledge the major competitive disadvantage this will put Delta at. Let me be clear — right now, Delta still beats United with Wi-Fi, all things considered. Delta has some sort of high speed Wi-Fi on more planes than United does.
However, there’s no denying the very unpleasant reality Delta will face, as things will look very different 18 or so months from now. United will have Starlink on every single plane, while Delta won’t even have started installing Amazon Leo on any planes. Keep in mind that Delta’s plans also rely on there being no delays with Amazon Leo, which is a major risk, as the timeline is far from certain.
We’re not talking about United having an advantage over Delta for a few months, or something. Instead, we’re talking about an advantage that will last years. For that matter, Delta hasn’t even announced plans to install Amazon Leo on roughly half of its fleet.
Also, I’m sure some people will be by shortly to point out how Delta already has “high speed Wi-Fi,” but I think anyone who has used free Viasat Wi-Fi vs. free Starlink Wi-Fi can attest to the night-and-day difference. Consumer expectations of connectivity are evolving rapidly, and I think that can’t be emphasized enough. Sure, right now people are happy with Viasat, but once they experience Starlink, it’s really hard to go back to a slower connection.
In just under two years, Delta passengers will feel like United passengers felt two years ago, where they were being offered a product that was simply uncompetitive. I really think Delta executives are struggling to see the forest from the trees here, and are more focused on branding than passenger experience. In fairness, branding has always been what the company has been best at.
Lastly, I’ll just say that when United announced plans to improve its inflight Wi-Fi offering, a certain prolific commenter wrote “Delta leads, United follows.” Why do I have a feeling the narrative of “United leads, Delta follows,” won’t be accepted this time around? 😉
Bottom line
Delta recently announced plans to introduce Amazon Leo for inflight connectivity on roughly half of its fleet, with installation starting in 2028, best case scenario. Amazon Leo is a Starlink competitor, and United plans to finish installing Starlink on all aircraft by the end of 2027.
One can’t overstate the passenger experience advantage this will give United, and it’ll be one that lasts for years. Many of us were puzzled by Delta’s decision, and now we know why things went the way they did. Delta reportedly was unwilling to make any compromises on its Delta Sync system for logging into the Wi-Fi portal, while Starlink has strict rules for this.
What do you make of Delta’s logic for skipping Starlink?
Anyone who has used Starlink on an airplane knows Delta just completely screwed the pooch here. I'll be flying long haul over the pacific with United and insanely fast internet while I will not be flying Delta on their A350 with the spotty viasat Delta Sync/whatever.
This is a major mistake. It's that good. Imagine having a fiber connection in the sky vs. Viasat's LTE
I stopped reading as soon as you expressed your opinion about Elon. I can’t care less what you think about him
Weird because Ben Lipsey confirmed on Flyertalk that requiring e.g. ffp membership for internet access is now allowed for Starlink (it must remain free of charge though). I can't see how that can be implemented without a login page.
LTD says, "18 months...is an eternity in the world of technology."
Best case scenario, Amazon LEO be launched in 2028. Delta has only announced plans to install this on 500 aircraft, making up roughly half of the fleet.
and you STILL can't grasp that DL already has over 1200 mainline and regional aircraft equipped with free high speed WiFi between Viasat and Hughes.
DL is simply adding yet another provider that will be faster but DL is not starting from a base of ZERO which is where UA is or was just a few months ago.
Remember that TMobile pulled the plug on free WiFi on the 1000 UA mainline aircraft that...
and you STILL can't grasp that DL already has over 1200 mainline and regional aircraft equipped with free high speed WiFi between Viasat and Hughes.
DL is simply adding yet another provider that will be faster but DL is not starting from a base of ZERO which is where UA is or was just a few months ago.
Remember that TMobile pulled the plug on free WiFi on the 1000 UA mainline aircraft that don't have Starlink RIGHT NOW.
and Viasat is turning on another N. America satellite and another for Asia in the next few months.
All you and anyone else including Ben is provide us with data that shows how many people will switch airlines just to get faster WiFi. We're not talking about going from no WIFI to an airline with WiFI but simply faster WIFi.
There isn't a single person that has said on this or any other site that they chose an airline w/ Starlink over an airline w/ Viasat - because it simply doesn't happen in real life.
UA is 4th out of 5 US carriers in high speed deployment RIGHT NOW and won't have any higher percentage of its fleet equipped with high speed WiFi in 18 months
"All you and anyone else including Ben is provide us with data that shows how many people will switch airlines just to get faster WiFi."
United Airlines' Net Promoter Scores (NPS) shot up dramatically with just the announcement of Starlink WiFi and NPS doubled on flights with it. Nothing has increased UA NPS more than Starlink WiFi. Passengers LOVE Starlink!
I am sure UA and others appreciate DL legitimizing the development of a possible competitor...
"All you and anyone else including Ben is provide us with data that shows how many people will switch airlines just to get faster WiFi."
United Airlines' Net Promoter Scores (NPS) shot up dramatically with just the announcement of Starlink WiFi and NPS doubled on flights with it. Nothing has increased UA NPS more than Starlink WiFi. Passengers LOVE Starlink!
I am sure UA and others appreciate DL legitimizing the development of a possible competitor years down the road to keep Starlink from gaining monopolistic pricing. It's a win-win for airlines with Starlink.
no one doubts that UA's NPS scores are going up. Most of the industry is.
you still can't tell us how much THE PROMISE of Starlink matters more or as much as any other factor including seatback AVOD, happier employees than UA has traditionally had, and improved meal service.
You and others can't stand to admit that UA actually has copied a great deal of DL's playbook and yet UA is still a distant #2...
no one doubts that UA's NPS scores are going up. Most of the industry is.
you still can't tell us how much THE PROMISE of Starlink matters more or as much as any other factor including seatback AVOD, happier employees than UA has traditionally had, and improved meal service.
You and others can't stand to admit that UA actually has copied a great deal of DL's playbook and yet UA is still a distant #2 in just about every metric to DL.
In WiFI, UA is actually #4 out of 5 (ahead of AS/HA) so you spin the story even more about what Starlink WILL DO because you can't stand to admit that UA is so far behind even AA and B6 in number of seats with high speed WIFi.
You convince yourself in your own mind - and without any data - that UA's promise of fleet Starlink is better than DL's 90% of its fleet that ALREADY has high speed WiFi.
You wouldn't be so obnoxious and I wouldn't have to spend more as much time here if you and Ben and Gary would simply admit that UA is #4 in WiFi and there is ZERO evidence on an aggregate level that people will choose a Starlink carrier over any other carrier with another brand of high speed WiFi, everything else considered.
Viasat's "high speed" WiFi isn't even close to Starlink. Not even a little bit. It's revolutionary for in-flight WiFi, and is in a complete league of it's own. You'll see when you try it!
Autorotate Master Dunn, you might have more patter than the Chinese army in flip-flops, but being boringly repetitive does nothing for your credibility, don’t you know! Ben, thanks you for your clicks while others are enjoying laughing at you.
whatever credibility you think anything has is of precisely ZERO interest to me - or anyone else.
The fact that you got smacked for using your fake logon to use poor English and got smacked up the side of the head is all that is comical
LTD says, "you still can't tell us how much THE PROMISE of Starlink matters more or as much as any other factor including seatback AVOD"
Actually, since the two-class RJs have no AVOD and NPS doubles with Starlink we can. Nice try though.
LTD says, "whatever credibility you think anything has is of precisely ZERO interest to me - or anyone else."
Presuming to speak for others certainly doesn't help "whatever credibility" you have.
LTD...
LTD says, "you still can't tell us how much THE PROMISE of Starlink matters more or as much as any other factor including seatback AVOD"
Actually, since the two-class RJs have no AVOD and NPS doubles with Starlink we can. Nice try though.
LTD says, "whatever credibility you think anything has is of precisely ZERO interest to me - or anyone else."
Presuming to speak for others certainly doesn't help "whatever credibility" you have.
LTD says, "The fact that you got smacked for using your fake logon"
Those are big stones coming out of that thin glass house.
no you can't figure out how to calculate the increase in NPS for Starlink when you also say that a million other things including seatback AVOD also increase NPS.
DL says that its new color scheme for the interior of its aircraft increase its NPS but no one in their right mind thinks that people book an airline solely for the color scheme of the seats.
In the exact same way, you can't prove...
no you can't figure out how to calculate the increase in NPS for Starlink when you also say that a million other things including seatback AVOD also increase NPS.
DL says that its new color scheme for the interior of its aircraft increase its NPS but no one in their right mind thinks that people book an airline solely for the color scheme of the seats.
In the exact same way, you can't prove that the PROMISE of Starlink- which doesn't exist on 90% Of UA's mainline aircraft moves revenue - and it doesn't.
If UA didn't suffer loss for NOT having high speed WiFI when DL had it for 5 years, then there is no planet on which DL will lose business because its WiFi isn't as fast as UA's for a couple months.
It is you that have no credibility when you can't QUANTIFY not just the current but the supposed future benefits of Starlink compared to Viasat - which exists on far more aircraft in the US carrier commercial fleet than Starlink.
You are just another of the insecure UA fan brats that can't admit that UA is not just 2nd in a metric - which is actually pretty good for UA - but actually 4th in current high speed WIFi availability so you spin the future benefit and people like Ben are gullible enough to believe it.
"QUANTIFY"
DOUBLE NPS
none of which SPECIFICALLY measures Starlink and nothing else.
and if you believe that UA's NPS scores went up w/ just 10% of the mainline fleet equipped with Starlink, you have no concept of what purchase drivers are since YOU STILL can't admit what UA did not get when DL had high speed WiFI for 5 years and UA had none.
Tim, how do YOU "SPECIFICALLY measures Starlink and nothing else."
that is precisely the point.
Without being able to do it, no one inculding rebel can say that UA's NPS scores are improving because of the announcement of Starlink which doesn't even exist on 90% of UA's mainline aircraft.
and we aren't even talking about a revenue loss which is all that matters.
UA has not paid a price for not having high speed WiFi.
DL will certainly not pay a price in...
that is precisely the point.
Without being able to do it, no one inculding rebel can say that UA's NPS scores are improving because of the announcement of Starlink which doesn't even exist on 90% of UA's mainline aircraft.
and we aren't even talking about a revenue loss which is all that matters.
UA has not paid a price for not having high speed WiFi.
DL will certainly not pay a price in the future IF UA gets Starlink and DL lags by a few months with a combination of Amazon Leo, Viasat and Hughes.
The data couldn’t be clearer. NPS scores double on two-class RJs with no AVOD. Anyone who understands a percentage gets it, but not LTD.
“UA gets Starlink and DL lags by a few months”
That’s hilarious. Poor little Tim. DL is a minimum of three years behind. UA/UAX has 400 aircraft with Starlink WiFi, only 100 aircraft less than DL’s ultimate Amazon LEO installation goal which is easily four years away. Currently, 80 DL 717s...
The data couldn’t be clearer. NPS scores double on two-class RJs with no AVOD. Anyone who understands a percentage gets it, but not LTD.
“UA gets Starlink and DL lags by a few months”
That’s hilarious. Poor little Tim. DL is a minimum of three years behind. UA/UAX has 400 aircraft with Starlink WiFi, only 100 aircraft less than DL’s ultimate Amazon LEO installation goal which is easily four years away. Currently, 80 DL 717s have no WiFi. DL offers ZERO WiFi in the Asia and Oceania. Viasat is unreliable as many here have attested to. This is a competitive grand slam for United.
Some fun facts about DL’s choice.
Amazon Leo (formerly Project Kuiper) is far behind schedule in the race to rival Starlink. With only about 200–240 satellites in orbit out of the planned 3,000+, Amazon missed its initial Q1 2026 launch target and is struggling to build the robust infrastructure needed for continuous, reliable coverage.
Launch Delays: Amazon is playing major catch-up. SpaceX’s Starlink already has over 10,000 satellites actively servicing millions of users. Amazon is currently relying on missions like the Ariane 6 launches to build out its constellation.
FCC Deadline Struggles: Amazon's regulatory license required half of its satellites to be in orbit by mid-2026. Because they will miss this, they are seeking waivers from the FCC to avoid penalties.
Recent Acquisitions: To accelerate its network and catch up to SpaceX, Amazon recently announced a massive $11 billion acquisition of satellite provider Globalstar, though that next-generation system isn't slated to deploy until 2028.
Yikes!
Amazon will beat Musk hands down.
United is still 4 out of 5 among US airlines with high speed WiFi.
Ben, I am curious, which Musk (which one of him) do you not like? LOL.
it's his political views... as if Bezos isn't political also - but perhaps not as in your face but in the opposite direction.
Bezos has just built larger and better consumer facing companies.
but let's admit that it is beyond silly to define loyalty to a company based on its founder. beyond silly.
as silly as it is ignorant to think that any one product is and always will be the pinnacle of success,...
it's his political views... as if Bezos isn't political also - but perhaps not as in your face but in the opposite direction.
Bezos has just built larger and better consumer facing companies.
but let's admit that it is beyond silly to define loyalty to a company based on its founder. beyond silly.
as silly as it is ignorant to think that any one product is and always will be the pinnacle of success, esp. since there are more Viasat equipped aircraft in the US carrier fleet right now than Starlink.
Viasat has a whole lot of motivation to upgrade their product and they are doing that - but that gets virtually no press here or elsewhere in the endless drivel of how great Starlink will be - despite the fact that only 10% of UA's mainline fleet has it now.
18 months - when even UA claims its Starlink installations will be complete - is an eternity in the world of technology.
You failed to autorotate Master Dunn, some people never learn and clearly you never will. However, you do make excellent clickbait for Ben, therefore and possibly the main reason, for the tolerance of your gibbering.
One has to admit that for an Ex-airside baggage handler, you do appear to have picked up the odd Walter Mitty snippet of information. All be it only in regard to Delta Airlines. Have you ever actually made it onto an aircraft?
Tim,
This person was talking to Ben - not to you.
I know you think this blog belongs to you, but it really doesn't.
I doubt that Delta intended to "make it expensive" by charging for access. But they likely intended to mine and monetize the data their customers "shared" with Delta by being forced to access the internet via Delta Sync.
just about every airline that has provided "free" services links it to their loyalty program.
You can argue who did what first but it is far more telling that AA, UA and WN have all copied DL's model and T Mobile (external) access is dead. DL managed to link T Mobile to DL high speed access but the connection is via Delta's channels.
Companies develop and protect their direct customer relationships
And what some can't...
just about every airline that has provided "free" services links it to their loyalty program.
You can argue who did what first but it is far more telling that AA, UA and WN have all copied DL's model and T Mobile (external) access is dead. DL managed to link T Mobile to DL high speed access but the connection is via Delta's channels.
Companies develop and protect their direct customer relationships
And what some can't grasp is that DL will have relationships with 3 high speed WiFi providers - Viasat, Hughes and Amazon Leo - which is not much different than DL buying widebodies from both Airbus and Boeing, something no other US airline is doing.
The common theme is not the brand of the WiFi but the company that links them all.
Some people couldn't accept that DL's strategy of buying Airbus widebodies made sense - until Boeing couldn't deliver 787s to AA and UA for years while DL received more new widebodies than all other US airlines combined for years in a row.
The arrogance that Starlink is the untouchable epitome of WiFi is as ignorant as thinking that Airbus doesn't make capable aircraft widebodies.
DL will introduce the A350-1000 which will build on the A350-900 as the most capable and efficient aircraft in the world.
Some people can't stand to consider that DL will do the same with WiFi using multiple providers.
Delta's is incredible at marketing. ;)
and yet United is even better at marketing.
DL actually has high speed WiFI on 90% of its fleet.
UA DOESN'T have Starlink on 90% of its mainline fleet and people including Ben think UA has an advantage that DL doesn 't have now and can't retain in the future.
THAT is good marketing.
The rest of us call it doing a very great job of selling dog poo
LTD says, "and yet United is even better at marketing."
Great comeback LTD.
It’s awesome seeing Tiny Handed Tim just get trucked daily on OMAAT
Greedy Delta marketing people wanted to force customers to log in with their frequent flyer account or phone number every time they use the internet, so that they can track them, including which websites they go to. F those ridiculous portals! They should be made illegal!! And why does Ben hate Elon Musk, except to virtue signal as a "good liberal"?! Musk has done our country a great service (for free) via DOGE by eliminating ridiculous waste like USAID!
I’m absolutely furious about this. I Fly Delta often and I buy business class or premium select seats. I am part of the demographic that actually matters the most to Delta here. I think we should focus on my demographic and less on random people on Reddit who complain about Elon musk. Those radical lefties don’t spend money on delta. I really wish the conversation could be home in on those of us who Fly...
I’m absolutely furious about this. I Fly Delta often and I buy business class or premium select seats. I am part of the demographic that actually matters the most to Delta here. I think we should focus on my demographic and less on random people on Reddit who complain about Elon musk. Those radical lefties don’t spend money on delta. I really wish the conversation could be home in on those of us who Fly Delta and spend a lot of money on the airline. Those of us who fly for business and spend thousands of dollars on premium seats and desperately need to get some work done because when we fly, it’s the only time we have where there’s no distractions. I just took three flights this month and all three flight flights on Delta had terrible Internet. It was a disaster. And then I got home and had a ton of work to catch up on. Not good. I will absolutely move to United as soon as it makes sense if their Internet is indeed better.
Nah, your demographic is their least concerned.
You are their brainwashed cash cow.
In this 5000 world essay, I will prove...
the only thing you need to prove is the value that UA lost by NOT having high speed WiFi while DL had it
and the value of new bookings on carriers with Starlink from carriers that have "inferior" WiFi such as Viasat which United and its scam fans think is somewhere between purgatory and hell.
The answer to both questions is not 5000 words but one number.
ZERO.
or
0
There is no...
the only thing you need to prove is the value that UA lost by NOT having high speed WiFi while DL had it
and the value of new bookings on carriers with Starlink from carriers that have "inferior" WiFi such as Viasat which United and its scam fans think is somewhere between purgatory and hell.
The answer to both questions is not 5000 words but one number.
ZERO.
or
0
There is no known quantifiable benefit to high speed WiFi from Starlink vs. Viasat.
There isn't even a known benefit when T Mobile cuts off your low speed WiFi (as happened to UA).
all of these so-called opinions are precisely worthless without facts and data.
I'll be happy to accept Ben's opinion if he actually has some data to back it up.
Otherwise, we all have an opinion just like we all have a crack down the backside. Mine is no less or more important than yours - or his.
It’s time to autorotate TD, or crash and burn …. crash and burn!
TD says "There is no known quantifiable benefit to high speed WiFi from Starlink vs. Viasat."
Are you serious? That IS quantifiable. Compare speeds and latency.
And to play along for a moment, if what you are saying is true, why is DL even thinking of Starlink or Leo? I mean, they have smart people running the airline. Surely if there was nothing to be gained, they would not pursue any option, right?
Delta’s strategy seems to be a long-term play for a connected ecosystem, even if it means a slower rollout for passengers. While they are currently behind in the high-speed Wi-Fi game, the deal with Amazon is reportedly a major cost-saving win that leverages their existing AWS relationship.
The friction with Starlink is also telling. Recent comments from Starlink leadership suggest they don't "lose well," and it is hard to trust a partner that speaks negatively...
Delta’s strategy seems to be a long-term play for a connected ecosystem, even if it means a slower rollout for passengers. While they are currently behind in the high-speed Wi-Fi game, the deal with Amazon is reportedly a major cost-saving win that leverages their existing AWS relationship.
The friction with Starlink is also telling. Recent comments from Starlink leadership suggest they don't "lose well," and it is hard to trust a partner that speaks negatively about potential partners publicly when they don’t win
There is also the question of what Delta has tucked away in its current contracts with Hughes and Viasat. We don't know the specifics of those agreements or what kind of leverage they provide for fleet-wide installations, but those terms are likely key negotiating points for Delta. For now, they seem to be prioritizing a sustainable, branded partnership over a quick fix. Until the fleet catches up, travelers will just have to navigate the speed gap.
I was on United with starlink the other day and it was very nice. Not a reason to pick them over Delta but it is a nice add and the extras do add up. Delta will be behind for a few years. M
it's Musk. Did you honestly accept that he would roll over and play dead when DL went w/ Bezos and Amazon?
thank you for confirming it won't change your purchase decision.
the fact that the boarding area supposed brain trust can't figure that out is the only real mystery here.
I would make the argument that this is a much bigger misstep by Starlink. That's a bunch of revenue they'll miss, all because they didn't want Delta controlling their own customers' experience. Delta has to make this investment, but they'll be fine for a couple more years with Viasat. For the 80% of flyers - to draw a comparison - the gap between okay wifi and great wifi is much smaller than the gap between seatback screens and no seatback screens.
thank you!
Common sense prevails at least for a few people.
and let's also not forget that part of the reason DL is doing only 500 aircraft with Leo which will be installed very quickly and also has several hundred aircraft on Hughes is because DL intends to get more bandwidth from more providers.
Has anyone ever honestly considered that the sheer "success" of Starlink is going to drive capacity beyond what Musk can deliver?
...thank you!
Common sense prevails at least for a few people.
and let's also not forget that part of the reason DL is doing only 500 aircraft with Leo which will be installed very quickly and also has several hundred aircraft on Hughes is because DL intends to get more bandwidth from more providers.
Has anyone ever honestly considered that the sheer "success" of Starlink is going to drive capacity beyond what Musk can deliver?
DL figured out that to diversify its fleet between multiple manufacturers better than any other US airline has given them advantages and the same thing will very likely play out w/ WiFi providers.
Sorry Tim.
Common sense doesn't prevail for you.
Tim, I don't think you understand the capacity that Starlink already has in their constellation. They also have a launch cadence and satellite evolution that is currently outpacing all of their competitors, combined.
This is an incredibly short sighted move by Delta, one that American Airlines would normally make.
you don't understand that touting capacity is not the issue.
DL is the only airline that had the balls to say no to Musk.
It is beyond incredible how much the left (including Ben) incessantly roast the left but can't recognize that Musk- Trump's on and off best friend - doesn't have a monopoly on high speed WiFI.
Is it me, or does anyone else see a problem with this...It may sound great all the airlines going with Starlink. However, that means they have basically beholden themselves to Elon's whims. With no competition, Elon can do whatever he wants.
I'm not doubting Starlink's capabilities, but in the long run, I think DL is wise to seek an alternative.
Seriously now …. why do U.S. travellers fly domestic airlines when there are World Class carriers covering your international flight needs?
Because some of the "world class" carriers charge $700 on a premium cabin award in fees on an award. That's multiple restaurant meals for me on the ground where I'll actually have fully functioning taste buds.
Also, one of the "world class" carriers serving my airpot announced their business class upgrade in 2017 and still hasn't rolled it out on the plane serving my airport.
Also "world class" carriers that take me on a 10...
Because some of the "world class" carriers charge $700 on a premium cabin award in fees on an award. That's multiple restaurant meals for me on the ground where I'll actually have fully functioning taste buds.
Also, one of the "world class" carriers serving my airpot announced their business class upgrade in 2017 and still hasn't rolled it out on the plane serving my airport.
Also "world class" carriers that take me on a 10 hour detour through the Middle East to get me to Europe aren't particularly practical.
That's just a few off the top of my head.
Who's to say which CEO is telling the truth. Musk says it's because Delta wanted a captive portal (other Starlink travel partners have this, so not sure why it was such a big deal here) to log on, Bastian says it's because Starlink wanted access to data from the aircraft that Delta didn't want them to have. I imagine the truth is somewhere in between.
I suspect the truth is that Elon hasn't been told "no" enough times in his life and DL and Amazon is just the combination to knock him down a few notches.
my bet is still that Amazon will deliver even more for consumers than what Elon has ever wanted to deliver.
Tim Dunn, "No"
Clearly Tim hasn't been told "no" enough times in his life.
After reading Musk's response, I'm fairly certain that Delta made the correct choice in not going with Starling.
Who, Clarice Starling? I'm pretty sure Jack Crawford made the right decision.
The fall of Delta is upon us. Cant keep its schedule, can't get wifi right. United will soon be #1 again!
The worst baggage handling in the entire US airline industry will make sure UA won't become #1.
Sad thing is that they aren't trying to fix it.
btw, how much money did UA lose by not having high speed WiFi for 5 years after DL first installed it?
How much will UA lose now that T Mobile pulled the plug on free WiFi?
just the answers, please.
Tim if YOU have the answers, please share.
I do have the answers.
UA has the industry's worst baggage handling and DL, which already has high speed WiFi, is betting that Amazon can deliver better than what Starlink can.
Since both have achieved far more in their sector than their competitors, its pretty obvious that a whole lot of people are incapable of believing that a competitor can shake things up.
Who cares about baggage handling? Real men dont check bags.
weird, Tim
your answers have nothing to do with the questions you asked ;)
Stop embarrassing yourself
See Max. Tim is being Tim.
He can't even answer his own question but he is delusional enough to think he answered his questions.
And he believes his answers is right.
How much is 1+1 Tim?
Tim: UA has the industry's worst baggage handling.
LOL.
and UA"s baggage handling is still industry worst
and not a single soul has been able to quantify the 'loss' DL will suffer for not having Starlink.
Musk is sure moaning, though.
btw, how did he do on that DOGE assignment?
Yes, I thought so.
I understand why, for maybe 2% of flyers, fair wifi is important. It is not for most of us.
I agree with you, but those 2% are often very high-value customers that choose based on these types of issues because they need to do work on a plane
and you still can't quantify the number of passengers that will switch carriers for very fast vs. just fast internet.
The numbers don't lie even if you do
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2054679135637962951?s=20
yep. Delta just cares more about a portal than making free wifi easy for their customers.
how mindless of you...repeating the same old drivel. You and Ben are cut out of the same cloth.
and yet unable to tell us how much disadvantage UA has had for not having high speed WiFi for the five years that DL has had free high speed WiFi - or how many people actually book trips based on the speed of WiFi coverage - including supposedly booking away from a carrier that has WiFI for...
how mindless of you...repeating the same old drivel. You and Ben are cut out of the same cloth.
and yet unable to tell us how much disadvantage UA has had for not having high speed WiFi for the five years that DL has had free high speed WiFi - or how many people actually book trips based on the speed of WiFi coverage - including supposedly booking away from a carrier that has WiFI for one that is faster.
If you want to cut and paste, mini mind, how about you find that data and share it with us?
Tim, are you aware that Delta still doesn't have wifi over the Pacific thanks to Viasat's failure? It works until Hawaii, but no coverage from there. It's been years without connectivity on TPAC flights..
incorrect.
DL doesn't offer FREE WiFi bcause only 2/3 of DL's A350 fleet have WiFI equipment.
Do YOU KNOW that Viasat is launching another satellite to cover Asia in mere facts?
DL will have global coverage LONG BEFORE UA offers 100% Starlink coverage in any part of the world. Domestic, TATL, TPAC or Latam.
Guaranteed.
why aren't you so worried about all of the flights that UA doesn't offer free WIFI...
incorrect.
DL doesn't offer FREE WiFi bcause only 2/3 of DL's A350 fleet have WiFI equipment.
Do YOU KNOW that Viasat is launching another satellite to cover Asia in mere facts?
DL will have global coverage LONG BEFORE UA offers 100% Starlink coverage in any part of the world. Domestic, TATL, TPAC or Latam.
Guaranteed.
why aren't you so worried about all of the flights that UA doesn't offer free WIFI on AT ALL regardless of speed because T Mobile pulled the plug and Starlink is 18 months from being completed?
Tim, take a look at the wi-fi coverage map from Delta.com :
https://www.delta.com/us/en/onboard/inflight-entertainment/onboard-wifi
Can you read "Asia: No Wi-Fi Coverage"?
It's really been years since Delta had no wi-fi in Asia. I mostly fly TPAC, so this is what matters the most to me.
Yes, Viasat will launch a new satellite for Asia coverage, but you can claim I'm wrong only when it's finally working.
now show us the maps of global free WiFi coverage for AA and UA.
You truly aren't smart enough to figure out that airlines won't promise ANYTHING If they can't consistently deliver it...
but that doesn't mean that AA, DL and UA ALL have SOME aircraft that have high speed WiFi across the Pacific
you can claim that DL is at a disadvantage when UA actually has global coverage.
I can assure you...
now show us the maps of global free WiFi coverage for AA and UA.
You truly aren't smart enough to figure out that airlines won't promise ANYTHING If they can't consistently deliver it...
but that doesn't mean that AA, DL and UA ALL have SOME aircraft that have high speed WiFi across the Pacific
you can claim that DL is at a disadvantage when UA actually has global coverage.
I can assure you that DL will have global coverage long before UA does.
It works both ways whether you understand the concept or not
I don't care whether it's free or not. It's "no wi-fi at all" vs "pay for connectivity", and the latter is far better.
UA and AA don't provide a wi-fi coverage map like Delta, but from my experience, they worked better than DL on TPAC.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a UA or AA fan at all.
I'm based in SEA, and I'm looking forward to the Starlink wifi on Alaska's 787 to be available in Q4. Alaska now flies to all the destinations I want from SEA.
prove it.
of course AA and UA don't have a WiFi coverage map because they don't offer it AT ALL.
So, DL did have WiFi on TPAC flights. AA and UA couldn't have worked just "better" if DL had anything.
If pay for connectivity was better than free, then AA and UA would not be moving toward free and UA would not have clung to T Mobile to bail out some of its customers.
...prove it.
of course AA and UA don't have a WiFi coverage map because they don't offer it AT ALL.
So, DL did have WiFi on TPAC flights. AA and UA couldn't have worked just "better" if DL had anything.
If pay for connectivity was better than free, then AA and UA would not be moving toward free and UA would not have clung to T Mobile to bail out some of its customers.
The standard is free high speed global WiFI and not a single carrier is there.
DL will get there far sooner than any other US carrier. and with a bigger fleet than any other airline in the world.
Yes, you are wrong. Your logic falls flat on its face.
"of course AA and UA don't have a WiFi coverage map because they don't offer it AT ALL."
You are truly retarded, Tim.
Now you're saying AA and UA don't offer Wifi across the Pacific? lol
It says everything about your mental capacity that you somehow equate "pay for wifi across the Pacific" like AA and UA have had for years with "no coverage whatsoever on Delta"
S_LEE, please do not waste your time trying to convince TD that he is ever wrong. He will argue that Black is White, he would never believe the information published on the Delta Airlines website that there is NO ASIA COVERAGE. He would much rather look for deficiencies in other airlines before admitting that he was too pig headed to admit the truth. The poor dumpling …. :-)
No No, Tim
Let's just ask Delta about their TPAC coverage
https://www.delta.com/us/en/onboard/inflight-entertainment/onboard-wifi
Seriously, how do you say this nonsense when even Delta contradicts you?
How many people would not have booked Delta in the future if they hadn't seen the Delta band on the WiFi portal?
Yeah, approximately zero.
That's a hill worth dying on.
Seriously, Tim, you are accusing someone of "repeating drivel"? Do you own a mirror?
Holy F!!
Elon just trolled Tim Dunn.
The exact accusation Tim said unreliable yesterday.
Hi Elon, I know you're reading this.
You should take DAL private and this time let Tim carry the sink.
"how mindless of you...repeating the same old drivel. You and Ben are cut out of the same cloth."
That is the nicest thing you've ever said to me, Tim.
I doubt Ben thinks I'm as high-speed as he is on these topics, but I will happily accept and embrace an "insult" along those lines.
"and yet unable to tell us how much disadvantage UA has had for not having high speed WiFi for...
"how mindless of you...repeating the same old drivel. You and Ben are cut out of the same cloth."
That is the nicest thing you've ever said to me, Tim.
I doubt Ben thinks I'm as high-speed as he is on these topics, but I will happily accept and embrace an "insult" along those lines.
"and yet unable to tell us how much disadvantage UA has had for not having high speed WiFi for the five years that DL has had free high speed WiFi - or how many people actually book trips based on the speed of WiFi coverage - including supposedly booking away from a carrier that has WiFI for one that is faster."
Listen up, Timmy. This is why you have ZERO respect from anyone. YOU are the one that said UA likely lost some customers to DL over wifi-- I agree. They probably did. There are corporate customers that need good wifi. I agreed with you but somehow your rants and tears on this topic have blinded to you what's actually going on in the conversation. Where we disagree is that the same argument can be made for why United will likely win some corporate customers when they're flying starlink aircraft all over the globe when Delta still has no plans for anything on the 717 (the hughes option has clearly failed) and is at the whims of Viasat for Pacific coverage -- to say nothing of the difference in Starlink vs Viasat.
Am I going to book to UA for Starlink over others? No. Their mileage program is of zero interest to me since they've required credit cards for good deals, etc and I rarely do aircraft work that requires Starlink vs Viasat speed differentials. But it was your argument about customers choosing DL over UA for internet -- which somehow you're demanding I give data to support YOUR argument?
Get a grip on reality buddy, God knows why US3 wifi articles send you into a mental death spiral.
poor stupid max can't read and he manipulates what is said as a result.
Where did I say that UA lost revenue because it didn't have high speed WiFi when DL did.
I asked YOU to quantify it - but you are not only terrible w/ math but even worse w logic.
Not a soul can tell you or me what UA lsot in revenue because the answer is ZERO.
And if UA didn't lose...
poor stupid max can't read and he manipulates what is said as a result.
Where did I say that UA lost revenue because it didn't have high speed WiFi when DL did.
I asked YOU to quantify it - but you are not only terrible w/ math but even worse w logic.
Not a soul can tell you or me what UA lsot in revenue because the answer is ZERO.
And if UA didn't lose revenue because of having an inferior WIFI operation for 7 years compared to DL, then DL certainly won't lose revenue because Viasat/Hughes is slower than Starlink.
The fact that people like you and Ben make such claims without the ability to think through what you write is what is beyond comprehension.
and, no, Ben is not anywhere near in the gutter like you.
I will concede that DL MIGHT BE at a disadvantage at some point in the future when someone including Ben tell us:
1. the amount of disadvantage including the amount of passengers that booked away from United over the past 5 years when DL had free high speed WiFi but UA did not.
2. the even greater disadvantage that UA has now that UA has since T Mobile will not even allow UA...
I will concede that DL MIGHT BE at a disadvantage at some point in the future when someone including Ben tell us:
1. the amount of disadvantage including the amount of passengers that booked away from United over the past 5 years when DL had free high speed WiFi but UA did not.
2. the even greater disadvantage that UA has now that UA has since T Mobile will not even allow UA to offer free WiFi on UA's non-Starlink equpped aircraft.
3. Tell us the bookaway from carriers that have "slow speed WiFi" to carriers with Starlink.
In fact, UA has seen the greatest improvement in its revenue performance over the past 5 years when DL had high speed WiFI and UA did not have any.
It is nothing but marketing hype to think that people actually have booked away from UA just because UA didn't have free high speed WIFI and even more ridiculous to think that DL will have "slow high speed WiFi" but UA will have better WiFi.
when someone can quantify the penalty that UA (and AA and WN) have paid for not having WiFI as good as DL or B6 for the past 5 years, then I will concede that DL (and AA) will be at a disadvantage in the future.
As some people have noted, peopl
"I will concede that DL MIGHT BE at a disadvantage at some point in the future when someone including Ben tell us:"
how magnanimous of you, Tim
god, you're such a loser saying this kind of stupid sh*it
Of course United has probably lost business from some customers due to their crap wifi vs Delta. I suppose you need to admit that Delta WILL see book away to United once UA has the best...
"I will concede that DL MIGHT BE at a disadvantage at some point in the future when someone including Ben tell us:"
how magnanimous of you, Tim
god, you're such a loser saying this kind of stupid sh*it
Of course United has probably lost business from some customers due to their crap wifi vs Delta. I suppose you need to admit that Delta WILL see book away to United once UA has the best wifi globally, hands down.
How funny will that be... the possibility of global starlink coverage on UA while Delta customers could still have no wifi across the Pacific and likely WILL have gogo speeds domestically on a delta mainline flight
I'll take your keyboard pounding to a confession that you certainly are incapable of providing the evidence that should make your case- if you are right.
But we all know that your argument is full of holes which is why you don't want any actual facts to back up your nonsense. (or anyone else that decides to use your same argument)
oh, and tell us how many UA mainline aircraft have Starlink on it today.
is it even triple digit number of aircraft?
what the F are you even saying? lol
providing evidence? That I agree with you that United probably lost some customers to Delta about wifi? how much of an idiot are you? I need to provide evidence to agree with you? lol.
It's amusing enough that you're sit on the website comments clicking refresh every 30 seconds to respond to me so quickly, it's even more amusing when your brain can't even comprehend...
what the F are you even saying? lol
providing evidence? That I agree with you that United probably lost some customers to Delta about wifi? how much of an idiot are you? I need to provide evidence to agree with you? lol.
It's amusing enough that you're sit on the website comments clicking refresh every 30 seconds to respond to me so quickly, it's even more amusing when your brain can't even comprehend what is written to you to reply in any kind of coherent manner.
But, as usual, the irony is with you, Tim -- You want others to concede that United could've lost business to Delta about wifi -- of course they likely did. But you'd also need to admit that United's superior wifi offering will soon cause defection from Delta to United.
"probably because the supposed rumor isn't even true... what would you expect from a Musk early investor?"
Remember when you said this? I do because you just say nonsense that is NEVER supported by any evidence -- well, as you may have seen, Elon Musk confirmed on Twitter that Delta was more concerned about making starlink access difficult and expensive via a portal for their customers vs ease of use that Starlink requires.
"United probably lost" ?
who are you kidding.
UA grew and improved its revenue better than average over the past 5 years.
UA lost nothing.
and DL isn't going to lose anything because a competitor has faster WiFi for far a shorter period of time than UA didn't have any high speed WiFi.
btw, have you and Ben come up w/ a number for now many customers UA will lose by having to charge for WiFI on the 1000 non-Starlink equipped aircraft since T Mobile pulled the plug?
OK, Tim, but Delta will lose customers by being an unreliable airline that cant find enough pilots to fly its schedule on any given day.
"UA grew and improved its revenue better than average over the past 5 years.
UA lost nothing."
I'm not really sure how many ways you can contort your own body to contradict your own statements.
I think it's funny that people bitch and moan about LH Allegris slowly being installed rather than buying off the shelf seats as most everyone else,
How many will get that aggressive with Delta and their strategic blunder?
From a balancing perspective, I think it's better for another company trying to compete(LEO vs Starlink), instead of everyone using a single company.
If Starlink has proven to be the best, and customers love it, what is to be gained by using an unproven, unknown product? That may not be ready for another two years. And then may not be worth it?
Bargaining power and thus cap on prices. Same story why Airbus launched inferior A330neo in response to B787.
Here is the question though, is inflight Wi-Fi a part of your purchase decision for a flight? Do you really seek out an airline because it has Starlink? With the risk of it being unavailable for your flight at any given day?
Admittedly it is really well functioning and is a fun addition to have on a flight. But scheduling and routing would far out rank any consideration for whether the flight has Wi-Fi or not for me.
This is a dumb rumor. Starlink on United is behind a portal and 0:45 of ads. No reason Delta couldn’t do the same.
I am asking everyone who is tired of dropping connections and frustrated with this awful decision to email Ed Bastian (CEO) and Allison Ausband (Chief Customer Experience Officer) today.
Let them know that:
-We do not care about Delta Sync vs. Starlink's platform.
-Waiting until 2028 for better internet is unacceptable for a premium airline.
-They need to backtrack this shortsighted decision and get a deal done with Starlink.
Executive Email Addresses:
I am asking everyone who is tired of dropping connections and frustrated with this awful decision to email Ed Bastian (CEO) and Allison Ausband (Chief Customer Experience Officer) today.
Let them know that:
-We do not care about Delta Sync vs. Starlink's platform.
-Waiting until 2028 for better internet is unacceptable for a premium airline.
-They need to backtrack this shortsighted decision and get a deal done with Starlink.
Executive Email Addresses:
Ed Bastian (CEO): [email protected]
Allison Ausband (EVP & Chief Customer Experience Officer): [email protected]
If you email them, I highly recommend including your SkyMiles number, your Medallion status, and a brief mention of a time the current Wi-Fi failed you when you needed to work. Let's remind them who is funding those premium cabins.
Like many of you, I rely heavily on Delta's in-flight Wi-Fi to actually get work done while flying. I've been increasingly frustrated with the spotty, unreliable service lately, but recent news has taken my frustration to a whole new level.
Instead of giving us the fastest, most reliable satellite internet on the market, Delta chose corporate vanity and branding. Because of this, we are stuck dealing with inferior Wi-Fi, and it looks like we won't see any real next-gen upgrades until 2028.
This is incredibly shortsighted. Those of us buying the premium seats don't care about Delta Sync; we care about being able to work seamlessly at 30,000 feet. Complaining to the incredibly hardworking customer service agents won't fix this. They didn't make the call. We need to take this straight to the executive team who prioritized a branded portal over actual customer experience.
its good that delta stood their ground imo.
why should a company paying out the money for a product have to submit to the demands of the provider? unless starlink were providing it for free, why should delta have their branding over it?
lol Timmy D better get that cuck chair ready!
I think this is a major blunder by Delta. Starlink is here right now and it works great.
It will only get better as SpaceX launches version 3 satellites. They have the proven launch capability. Who knows when or if Leo will be able to compete.
we're only a year or two away from apple launching satellite internet direct to cell - I can't wait.
The cruise lines are going to lose their minds when they can't charge for internet anymore.
Angry commenter: *(hates Starlink because it's run by an ecentric billionaire)
Also Angry commenter: *(supports Amazon LEO and Jeff Bezos instead)
@ Tim:
Try it once. It's okay. Say it in your head first if necessary, then silently at a whisper, then to yourself in the mirror. You can do it. You got this.
"Delta isn't the best airline at _____"
Anyone who argues about what UA / AA / AS / JB does well doesn't think those airlines are the best at EVERYTHING, too. That's the difference between you and every other commenter, and that's why you get roasted like no other.
nobody has ever said that Starlink isn't better.
The complete rubbish is that some people don't recognize that technology is always evolving.
DL jumped into WiFi under an older system which is still being improved and will be improved by Starlink and even more so with Amazon Leo.
It is the height of ignorance and arrogance to think that the benefit with free global Viasat/Hughes that DL built will be erased or that UA has...
nobody has ever said that Starlink isn't better.
The complete rubbish is that some people don't recognize that technology is always evolving.
DL jumped into WiFi under an older system which is still being improved and will be improved by Starlink and even more so with Amazon Leo.
It is the height of ignorance and arrogance to think that the benefit with free global Viasat/Hughes that DL built will be erased or that UA has been harmed by not having better WiFI for the past 5 years.
it is equally ridiculous to think that Starlink will be the best WiFi for all time into the future and that UA's WiFi won't be surpassed by something else.
that is just the nature of technology.
It is pure arrogance and ignorance to think otherwise.
and the real clue about what drives it is that other airlines and their fans don't act like any other high speed WiFi system is inferior to theirs - it is purely a UA thing and typical for everything about that cohort - rooted in insecurity that they really aren't as good as they think they are and an inability to admit that they are really not #1 in anything even though they desperately want to believe they are.
Again, typical Tim. Ignore the post, repeat talking points.
Seriously, can you say something that you agree Delta is not #1 at? I can, about any airline. And, most importantly, can you do it without any, "Yeah, but..." on any other metrics?
Good for Delta not to go with Starlink. I will start considering them for any personal flying I may have to do - as long as the fares are competitive.
@just_a_deviant. Oh, please....silly comment.
The only reason Starlink is free is because they're trying to penetrate the market, get a majority share and then force their own pricing on the consumer... Good on Delta for trying something else!
It's free because the money isn't made on connectivity.
It's made on the traffic and data collected.
Yeah, lesson from the cybertruck and tunnel hypes
Starlink Wi-Fi is already hidden behind other branding in a few airlines, like WestJet in Canada for example. Branded as WestJet W-Fi powered by Telus - nothing about Starlink. Like Rogers Satellite in Canada, not mentioned that it's actually Starlink direct to cell. Why is this suddenly an issue with Delta?
probably because the supposed rumor isn't even true... what would you expect from a Musk early investor?
I see you're still working through the first two stages of grief, Tim.
The faster you work through your denial and anger, the faster you can be depressed then accept the inevitable -- Delta has strategically and purposefully set itself up to be in last place for years to United
Let's be honest, you live your entire life in the "bargaining" stage desperately trying to think of stupid ways to rationalize dumb Delta decisions.
Ouch...
I see you're still working through the first two stages of grief, Tim.
The faster you work through your denial and anger, the faster you can be depressed then accept the inevitable -- Delta has strategically and purposefully set itself up to be in last place for years to United
Let's be honest, you live your entire life in the "bargaining" stage desperately trying to think of stupid ways to rationalize dumb Delta decisions.
Ouch...
And all just to make sure the "Delta Sync" portal only shows a widget.
Tim
Calm down, look into a mirror, and repeat this before you post anything online.
"probably because the supposed fluff isn't even true... what would you expect from a Delta mindless fanatic?"
Not that I expected much from the comments, more here for a little fun. But let's play the "which billionaire is the best billionaire game". Do some of you people really ever step back from your entrenched dogma and see what you are arguing about?
Can Warren Buffet join?
But my vote goes to Mark Zuckerberg.
Some of you people need help. To the person that somehow think Delta's choice of wifi carrier is linked to AIDs in Africa you're making a fool out of yourself. You are that person I now see in airports with an N95 mask on pissed off that the rest of the world is living their lives.
are you r3t@rded, because no one here is tying Delta or wifi to AIDS in Africa
Because N95 doesn't prevent AIDS in Africa?
By the way George, did your parents conceived you because they forgot to wear N95?
Because N95 doesn't prevent AIDS in Africa?
By the way George, did your parents conceived you because they forgot to wear N95?
To be honest, Wi-Fi really does not matter to me. In all my flying, whether for work or with the family, I use flying time to relax and watch a movie, and enjoy the service.
Regardless Wi-Fi connectivity / quality, we will continue to generally stay with BA when flying East, and SQ when flying WEst.
It's nice that you don't have to work on flights, but some of us do. I'd rather work on a plane that I'm stuck on then work late at night after I land when I could be enjoying the city.
It's nice that you don't have to work on flights, but some of us do. I'd rather work on a plane that I'm stuck on then work late at night after I land when I could be enjoying the city.
Delta is an anomaly in that they're both evil and stupid. You rarely find that combination.
Our politics suggests otherwise.
@Matt - Agreed, and that’s why Kamala lost
On the topic (Delta's reason was "silly"), taking the context and the competition into account, I'm not sure how a sensible person could disagree with Ben on this one.
I don't see this as a big problem.
Starlink is already reached the apex of its possible performance, what SpaceX will be trying to do no is rollout more satellite to bring more capacity and cover more oceans. A 100% increase in number of satellites won't equate to a 100% increase in service quality, it's now going to be more like 10-15%.
For Amazon Leo, true that they have less satellite, but we should...
I don't see this as a big problem.
Starlink is already reached the apex of its possible performance, what SpaceX will be trying to do no is rollout more satellite to bring more capacity and cover more oceans. A 100% increase in number of satellites won't equate to a 100% increase in service quality, it's now going to be more like 10-15%.
For Amazon Leo, true that they have less satellite, but we should note that majority of the cover Asia, Europe and North America and I believe that the majority of future satellite launches will be to improve coverage over this regions which is where about 90% of Delta's operations exist. Before the 2028 launch, I believe that Amazon will be able to have about 2,000+ satellites which is roughly about the same number starlink had at its introduction and still got slot of raves for its speed and latency.
The only thing Delta and Amazon needs to ensure is that they secure STC for most of the fleet before 2028 and work on making installation and rollout fast if not faster than what starlink currently achieves. Even if installation starts in 2029, and they can get the 4-days per plane installation timeline, I believe that they will be able to complete installation by 2031.
Delta is tanking. They have lost their premium touch. United and Southwest have passed Delta. Check out the stock price comparison since 2025!
I came here to say the same thing - they've peaked and are on an irreversible slide. You can see in all their messaging they're all in on DEI + ESG: clearly they've taken their eye off the basic core functions of what made them succeed and its bleeding through with obvious own goals and poor decision making. Sad!
Counterpoint: Leo is a great product, and a great investment for the future. They've got a robust launch schedule - 29 satellites went up April 27, so they are rapidly catching up on that front.
That aside, it is good for the marketplace to have more than one strong vendor for this - from a price point and from a mercurial billionaire point (hat tip CF Frost).
Satellitemap (dot space) says Amazon Leo has 300 broadband satellites in orbit. They also say Starlink has 10,375 active satellites in orbit. And Starlink has plans to expand to over 40,000.
That's not exactly "rapidly catching up".
Having been in some areas with congested Starlink usage (think remote marinas where suddenly every boat has a Starlink terminal) - I’m a bit curious how Starlink will hold up when nearly every plane in the sky is using it. I know nothing about how these networks work and can grow but I can say it’s not perfect like so many think. So maybe being on a completely different network in 5 years will actually be an advantage
Baron is a big investor in SpaceX but he's not on the Board nor does he work on the operational side of SpaceX. No doubt and NDA was in place for the Delta/SpaceX negotiations. Bottom line is Baron (the source of the angle behind the story) may not have the full picture on why discussions fell through with DL. He may gain awareness of friction points, but he's unlikely in a position to pinpoint with...
Baron is a big investor in SpaceX but he's not on the Board nor does he work on the operational side of SpaceX. No doubt and NDA was in place for the Delta/SpaceX negotiations. Bottom line is Baron (the source of the angle behind the story) may not have the full picture on why discussions fell through with DL. He may gain awareness of friction points, but he's unlikely in a position to pinpoint with precision why Delta walked.
I'd have a hard time believing DL would willfully place itself in a position to be inferior to UA in terms of wifi for 2 years over a simple branding issue.
Can I ask a different question? Why does this matter to invested frequent flyers? I have Delta status, all the cards, live near the airports. Switching to AA or UA isn't convenient, even if I wanted to switch cards, connect thru their hubs instead of fly direct, build new status, even with a match. I'm sure UA and AA flyers feel the same. It's all well and good to declare well, this Starlink thing is...
Can I ask a different question? Why does this matter to invested frequent flyers? I have Delta status, all the cards, live near the airports. Switching to AA or UA isn't convenient, even if I wanted to switch cards, connect thru their hubs instead of fly direct, build new status, even with a match. I'm sure UA and AA flyers feel the same. It's all well and good to declare well, this Starlink thing is the last straw but it really won't be for most of us. So yeah, a HUGE mistake on Delta's part? Doubtful. And debate away that the leisure traveler cares - also doubtful, and you've written a ton that leisure isn't where any of these airlines make their money.
If you live at a spoke or a battleground hub it very much does matter. Not everyone lives in Houston or Atlanta.
Came for the Anti Elon comments and it's never disappointing. All of the same people who trash Musk here probably happily give their money to the other billionaires like Bezos, Gates, and Zuck (who incidentally has given wads of cash to the current President). You are like my muslim friend who gives himself a carveout to eat pork and drink wine.
Anyhow, Amazon and OneWeb will eventually have usable competing platforms in several years. But...
Came for the Anti Elon comments and it's never disappointing. All of the same people who trash Musk here probably happily give their money to the other billionaires like Bezos, Gates, and Zuck (who incidentally has given wads of cash to the current President). You are like my muslim friend who gives himself a carveout to eat pork and drink wine.
Anyhow, Amazon and OneWeb will eventually have usable competing platforms in several years. But SpaceX certainly has a massive jump on all of them. So there will be competition. Amazon has the capital to make sure theirs is successful. Delta and American continue to be incredibly short sighted with their choices in satellite providers. I'll add Qantas in there too, they are worse than almost every top tier global airline with regard to connectivity.
You assume way too much.
There are plenty of people who don't give a crap about politics, but still don't like Elon due to his longstanding verifiable history of over-promising, then severely under-delivering.
I'm not sure I agree. Consumer expectations of wifi is more that it exists, I'm pretty sure the average person does not understand Starlink connectivity/speeds vs Viasat connectivity/speeds. Viasat is still capable of streaming video with pretty good performance, as internet speeds have diminishing returns past a certain point.
If anything people have already been conditioned with years of poor wifi offerings inflight, so I don't think that people will find Delta's wifi a major...
I'm not sure I agree. Consumer expectations of wifi is more that it exists, I'm pretty sure the average person does not understand Starlink connectivity/speeds vs Viasat connectivity/speeds. Viasat is still capable of streaming video with pretty good performance, as internet speeds have diminishing returns past a certain point.
If anything people have already been conditioned with years of poor wifi offerings inflight, so I don't think that people will find Delta's wifi a major reason to not fly them.
No one is going, I will fly United because they have Starlink and Delta only has Viasat, price/schedule are still significantly larger factors.
Delta has always made smart business decisions. Every other carrier has followed. They know something you don’t - and while I highly doubt politics played a role in this, their internet provider may be able to remain competitive with Starlink, and the cost would be prohibitive (switching). I enjoy your information (minus the credit card crap), but you really need to be more open minded.
"crap"?
We love this supersonic travel, but can you please take those noisy things off the wings? We don't like them.
"Delta has always made smart business decisions. Every other carrier has followed."
interesting notion -- not really grounded in reality though
1. Lie Flat Seating? Delta followed United IPTE
2. All aisle access in Business class? they beat AA and UA here but were hardly any kind of industry leader in this space vs international competitors -- And Delta quickly stopped caring about this as soon as it made sense to buy planes over...
"Delta has always made smart business decisions. Every other carrier has followed."
interesting notion -- not really grounded in reality though
1. Lie Flat Seating? Delta followed United IPTE
2. All aisle access in Business class? they beat AA and UA here but were hardly any kind of industry leader in this space vs international competitors -- And Delta quickly stopped caring about this as soon as it made sense to buy planes over the course of years and not bothering working on their supply chains (LA A359)
3. Premium Economy? Delta followed American
4. High Speed wifi? Delta still doesn't have it across their mainline fleet but they followed AA with Viasat but never completed their mainline fleet installation to high speed wifi and don't have plans to
5. Free High Speed Wifi? Delta followed JetBlue but Delta also still does not have free high speed wifi rolled out across their fleet -- even domestically -- and has no plans to (cough cough 717). Delta also doesn't even have coverage across half the planet
But I guess Delta does lead in some areas
1. Turning mileage programs into being worthless -- Delta is the leader -- and while SkyPesos were a joke before 2023, Delta really just jumped to the lead in 2023 by making their program even more worthless
2. Basic Economy -- Delta started the race to the bottom
3. Basic international business class -- tied with UA in the race to the bottom
4. Restricting Sky Club members on usage -- Delta
5. Eliminating ANY service below 350 miles -- something other airlines seem capable of doing -- hell, in europe you can get a full meal in less than 350 miles
6. Absolutely UNMATCHED in union-busting tactics -- Delta
7. Long lines at club entrances -- Delta is unmatched trying to get too much club revenue vs space for paying customers to use it.
“1. Lie Flat Seating? Delta followed United IPTE”
Actually BA introduced the first “Lie Flat Seating” in March, 2000. Since that time the world’s airlines have followed. Have the U.S. airlines caught up yet?
I was focused on comparisons where Delta copied a US3 competitor first but yes, Delta did copy United and BA was the first with lie flats.
And yes. welcome to the website, Aero, lie flats are quite the standard in the US.
go be a troll elsewhere.
let's also remember that the whole "but I can get free WiFi on UA' just got kicked to the curb when TMobile cut the cord.
The notion that UA has grown as it has w/o free high speed WiFi but DL will take a back seat to Starlink is the most bizarre logic possible - straight from the same UA dept. of hogwash that was convinced they would push AA out of ORD and grow...
let's also remember that the whole "but I can get free WiFi on UA' just got kicked to the curb when TMobile cut the cord.
The notion that UA has grown as it has w/o free high speed WiFi but DL will take a back seat to Starlink is the most bizarre logic possible - straight from the same UA dept. of hogwash that was convinced they would push AA out of ORD and grow the number of flights at EWR - and both have proven not to be true at all.
how some people believe the BS that comes out of Chicago is beyond belief.
There is nothing bizarre about the idea that one company can leapfrog another. It happens in every industry. Why does anyone think it could be any different within the airlines?
Here's the comparisons I can find between Delta and United:
UA: Pretty much all of their "express" fleet upgrades to Starlink is complete, and nearly all of their domestic narrowbody fleet will be complete in 8 months. The latest info claims the widebody fleet will...
There is nothing bizarre about the idea that one company can leapfrog another. It happens in every industry. Why does anyone think it could be any different within the airlines?
Here's the comparisons I can find between Delta and United:
UA: Pretty much all of their "express" fleet upgrades to Starlink is complete, and nearly all of their domestic narrowbody fleet will be complete in 8 months. The latest info claims the widebody fleet will be done by the end of 2027. Legacy systems (Thales, Viasat) remain as "paid" service until replaced by Starlink, which is free for mileage plus members.
DL: Amazon Leo installs won't start until 2028. Until then, free service (to Skymiles members) is available on Viasat. Completion date of the upgrade to Leo isn't known.
Delta is arguably providing better wifi service NOW, but it is equally arguable that United is set to leapfrog Delta over the next year or so. Doesn't seem like "bizarre logic" to me or anyone else without a bias towards one particular airline.
your comment is precisely the point
"There is nothing bizarre about the idea that one company can leapfrog another."
the hypocrisy is to think that UA has never suffered for having an inferior WiFi solution now and for the past 5 years
AND
that Starlink will be the apex that no one else can surpass.
It is the most arrogant, egotistical mindset ever.
I'm flying next month. I want fast free WiFi next month.
In three years, all the clever points herein will be relevant.
Today, they're not.
Arguing the character appeal of Bezos vs Musk, I'll leave that to others.
dude, theirs something really unhealthy with your delta obsession
I swear aviation social media gets dumber by the day repeating the same thing based on rumor.
An initial investor in Elon Musk's ventures thinks he knows why DL makes the decision it does.
Did it occur that the man has a bias and might be just a little upset that DL didn't embrace the Musk cult?
I'll put my money on Amazon every day and twice on Saturday and Sunday to deliver a...
I swear aviation social media gets dumber by the day repeating the same thing based on rumor.
An initial investor in Elon Musk's ventures thinks he knows why DL makes the decision it does.
Did it occur that the man has a bias and might be just a little upset that DL didn't embrace the Musk cult?
I'll put my money on Amazon every day and twice on Saturday and Sunday to deliver a product that they promise.
I have precisely zero products from Musk's family of companies but multiple from Amazon.
There she is, triggered as usual! Hahahahaha!!!
Timothea, no one here takes you seriously. Shooo!
Are you seriously accusing someone else of having a bias when it comes to DL?
Deliver a product? Starlink is already delivering that product, and it works. You can get a Starlink terminal and sign up today if you wanted. Amazon Leo? I have little doubt that they will get it up and running, but let's be a little serious here. One is available and deliverable today, the other is not.
I have no Starlink or Tesla products, and only use Amazon to buy things, and that's not even that often, before you accuse me of a bias, which you will anyway.
"I'll put my money on Amazon every day and twice on Saturday and Sunday to deliver a product that they promise."
That only works as a comparison, if neither competitor has a product ready to go.
No one is denying Elon's long history of B.S. promises and outright lies. But this isn't one of those times.
StarLink has a product completed, and is being installed and utilized. Amazon does not. There's no bet to be placed here.
again, you can't accept that there was a day when Musk had never built a car - and is building less and less of them these days.
but you can't accept that, maybe, just maybe, Amazon just might build a better product.
There was a day when Airbus didn't build a single commercial airliner and Boeing ruled the market.
and then Airbus started building airplanes and Boeing's reign was over.
and there are...
again, you can't accept that there was a day when Musk had never built a car - and is building less and less of them these days.
but you can't accept that, maybe, just maybe, Amazon just might build a better product.
There was a day when Airbus didn't build a single commercial airliner and Boeing ruled the market.
and then Airbus started building airplanes and Boeing's reign was over.
and there are two solid competitors.
You and others act like the product which UA doesn't even have fully installed on their fleet will reign supreme for years.
do people that write and think this stuff honestly look at how stupid they really are?
I mean, you’ve never looked at how stupid you come across on here for the things you write, so…
Oh Spectrum Boy, you have outdone yourself this time with the feckless buffoonery. For all of Musk's flaws (and there are many) he has been a market leader and disrupter in multiple industries. From cars to rockets to sat wifi. Amazon cannot even keep AWS functioning as they promise. Two of my companies already have credit due to AWS drops so no you don't trust Amazon and Bezos every day and twice on Sunday (he...
Oh Spectrum Boy, you have outdone yourself this time with the feckless buffoonery. For all of Musk's flaws (and there are many) he has been a market leader and disrupter in multiple industries. From cars to rockets to sat wifi. Amazon cannot even keep AWS functioning as they promise. Two of my companies already have credit due to AWS drops so no you don't trust Amazon and Bezos every day and twice on Sunday (he cannot even get WaPo right on Sunday...). Just admit Georgia Klan Air is behind, as usual, and go to your safe space (but hey Georgia Klan Air got yet another EEOC complaint this week and leads all majors in racism so you have that)...
Ohh TD.
UA will reign supreme for years, yes, because even if it is only installed right now on half the fleet (and increasing), DL will have zero planes with "high speed" wifi. This is an inflection point kind of like DSL to cable in terms of speed and latency. At best, and there are always delays, DL will be able to start installing Leo in a few years.
I guarantee you that if DL...
Ohh TD.
UA will reign supreme for years, yes, because even if it is only installed right now on half the fleet (and increasing), DL will have zero planes with "high speed" wifi. This is an inflection point kind of like DSL to cable in terms of speed and latency. At best, and there are always delays, DL will be able to start installing Leo in a few years.
I guarantee you that if DL reverses their decision and decides to go with Starlink, you will cheer from the roof of MSP how great DL is. That this was the plan all along, and that you will tell us that is what you have been saying forever, and that DL had shown off a masterclass on how to install fast wifi, Or something.
And before you inevitably try to say I'm saying that Leo won't be a great product, well, it could very well be the next generation of connectivity. But, when I fly, I'm deciding on the product that the airline has NOW, not what it will have in a few years.
Tim
You're still using the Fire phone?
It still works "every day and twice on Saturday and Sunday"?
Having the entire airline industry beholden to one single vendor can’t be great long term. Especially with an unpredictable billionaire guiding thing.
I was thinking the same thing. With Musk as insane as he is, what's to stop him from extorting the airlines to whom he's providing Starlink? He's like the drug dealer (about whom he likely knows much) who gets the user addicted on cheap or free product, then starts hiking the price once the user thinks they can't live without it.
"He gives the kids free samples, because he knows full well that today's young, innocent faces are tomorrow's clientele."
"Why do I have a feeling the narrative of 'United leads, Delta follows,' won’t be accepted this time around?"
I love you for this. Snark really does become you.
thank God I read this post in the first fifteen minutes so I will not have to death scroll the ten plus posts from you know who. I will never understand why Ben does not moderate content. Limit one response per story.
People say Starlink has rules that it has to be free - except obviously not. Because Royal Caribbean and others have Starlink and charge a fortune for it.
"Limit one response per story" would be the stupidest way imaginable to address the problem.
Politician's logic:
Something must be done.
This is something.
Therefore we must do it.
In @Robert Fahr's scenario, I could say this nasty message, but he could not rebut it, or in a parallel universe where I was actually wrong, correct me.
Why arent you a fan of Elon Ben?
More accurately, why would anyone want to be a fan of him?
Drug addiction may be one reason.
Corruption could be another.
Unpredictability could be another.
Dishonesty could be another.
Cutting assistance for millions of AIDS patience in Africa who are now dying could be another.
Hoovering private and confidential US citizen data could be another.
Taking a chainsaw to US government employees with no understanding of the ramifications could be another.
The list is really endless.
But let's wait for Ben's reasons. :)
Even if you take all of the political stuff out, Elon is a highly dislikable human.
From a work perspective he constantly promises progress that falls through (full self driving capability has been coming to Tesla's next year, every year since 2017: robo taxis have been 3 years away every year since 2020)
From a personal perspective he's an awkward loser. It's incredible that he can do this while being the richest man...
Even if you take all of the political stuff out, Elon is a highly dislikable human.
From a work perspective he constantly promises progress that falls through (full self driving capability has been coming to Tesla's next year, every year since 2017: robo taxis have been 3 years away every year since 2020)
From a personal perspective he's an awkward loser. It's incredible that he can do this while being the richest man on earth. He makes being as rich as he is looking awful. He spends his time high on ketamine arguing on twitter. He pretends to be a skilled video game player, getting others to level up his diablo 2 character. Then when streaming it, it becomes painfully obvious that his high rank doesn't match his knowledge or skill.
The EDS is strong on this board. He's the Michelangelo of this generation. Is he perfect? No, but none of the greats are ...you take the good with the bad and he's a giant net positive.
"He's the Michelangelo of this generation"
Pitch blease, he ain't even the turtle, much less the renaissance man. Elon's long-term legacy will be to show what an illusory paper-tiger much of this "Elite" wealth actually is.
Tesla's market cap is currently higher than Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, GM, Mercedes, BMW, and Volkwagen COMBINED. This, despite earning less annual revenue than any of them INDIVIDUALLY, and with falling sales in just about every country it...
"He's the Michelangelo of this generation"
Pitch blease, he ain't even the turtle, much less the renaissance man. Elon's long-term legacy will be to show what an illusory paper-tiger much of this "Elite" wealth actually is.
Tesla's market cap is currently higher than Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, GM, Mercedes, BMW, and Volkwagen COMBINED. This, despite earning less annual revenue than any of them INDIVIDUALLY, and with falling sales in just about every country it operates in.
It's such a bubble that it's not even funny, one that will eventually correct. When it does, this dude's world crumbles, because much of his personal wealth (and more importantly) the collateral that funds his other ventures, are tied to this laughably over-valued bubble.
It'll be a lesson for generations to come. Not because he's weird, drug addicted, or politically polarizing. But because such a market collapse was so predictable, yet allowed to happen.
You are really going to crying when he becomes the world's first trillionaire which likely be before EOY. 1000 years from now his name will still ring out, you can take that to the bank.
Are you trying to become another one of his baby mamas? You'll need to remove his balls from your mouth first.
Elon Musk will fall, it's just a matter of when, not if. Hopefully he ends up behind bars where he belongs.
I suspect the next few years are going to be super painful for the EDS sufferers. If you guys are convinced TSLA is overpriced, please short it. The investment graveyard is full of TSLA skeptics over tha last decade.
And the Space X prospectus (which will be the largest public offering ever) is going out next week. I bet he hits a trillion in 2026. Personally I have great respect for success people that create great companies. I haven't met Musk or Bezos but have spent a lot of time with Bill Gates, Michael Dell and Ross Perot over the course of my career. All were amazing and interesting people. The jealous of those with more rings loudly on this blog.
Anyone can be a "trillionaire," if using made-up evaluations.
As someone already pointed out, Tesla's market capitalization is over-valued to the point of comedy. And probably to the point of illegality too, since many of Tesla's top shareholders are using that stock value as collateral against personal and business loans, which they'll probably never be able to pay off.
"Let me be clear — right now, Delta still beats United with Wi-Fi, all things considered."
I am sorry, but i vehemently disagree. Just did a r/t between ORD-SLC on DL last week and the wifi didn't work on either leg of my flight. Thank God they had seatback screens with IFE (hello, AA?). Yes, I understand this is not a statistically significant sample but still: I almost always have workable wifi on my UA...
"Let me be clear — right now, Delta still beats United with Wi-Fi, all things considered."
I am sorry, but i vehemently disagree. Just did a r/t between ORD-SLC on DL last week and the wifi didn't work on either leg of my flight. Thank God they had seatback screens with IFE (hello, AA?). Yes, I understand this is not a statistically significant sample but still: I almost always have workable wifi on my UA flights and the one time I fly Delta, they're 0 for 2. Not good.
By the way, DL was a mediocre experience in economy as well. Better than AA, inferior to UA or JetBlue. Sorry Tim.
Viasat has just launched its Americas satellite (replacing the delayed malfunctioning one from a few years ago) and pax should be able to expect 50-100 mbps which will be fantastic but latency will still be a problem, especially for VPNs etc.
It's ‘Coke vs. Pepsi’… Sure, some have their preferences, but at the end of the day, it’s all just caffeinated, carbonated sugar water. If the WiFi is included and it’s reliable, who really cares about which service provider it is (Elon's Starlink, whatever Bezos is doing, Viasat, Panasonic, etc.) Delta and jetBlue lead the way on this; United and American are finally catching up.
Did you ever fly Turkmenistan Airlines? I remember you wrote at one point you wanted to. Seeing very good fares between Milan and Bangkok in business.
Before this section gets filled with Tim Dunn commentary, I think an important point you make is the changing consumer expectations around WiFi speeds. 7 years ago i was ecstatic that emirates had passable OnAir wifi that where i can check my email and get some work down. Now, I dread having to work on that wifi and will actively seek out other routings if know i need to get work done in the air....
Before this section gets filled with Tim Dunn commentary, I think an important point you make is the changing consumer expectations around WiFi speeds. 7 years ago i was ecstatic that emirates had passable OnAir wifi that where i can check my email and get some work down. Now, I dread having to work on that wifi and will actively seek out other routings if know i need to get work done in the air. I can very realistically see a world where corporations encourage or even require people to choose starlink carriers over others just because it means they can be productive.
Too late.