In the coming months, American Airlines will start flying Boeing 787s out of New York, which should have some interesting implications. I first wrote about this a bit over a week ago, but there’s now an update, as the first 787 route is on sale.
In this post:
American opening Boeing 787 pilot base in New York
Airlines put a lot of thought into deciding which aircraft to base out of which hubs. For example, American’s wide body fleet currently consists of 787s and 777s, yet you won’t find both aircraft types at all major hubs. The airline exclusively flies 777s out of New York, while the airline exclusively flies 787s out of Philadelphia. Until a couple of years ago, American only based 777s (and not 787s) out of Miami, but that has finally changed.
What’s the logic for this kind of fleet planning? While you want to be able to match capacity to demand, there are costs to basing multiple types of aircraft at an airport in terms of pilot staffing, maintenance, etc.
Along those lines, American is making a notable change to its fleet planning for New York, as first reported by @xJonNYC. As of the fall of 2024, American will start flying 787s out of New York, as the airline is opening a 787 pilot base there.
The airline will initially base just 20 captains and 20 first officers there, which would probably be enough for one ultra long haul route (that requires four pilots) or two shorter long haul flights (that require two pilots). The base is expected to grow over time.
Where will American fly Boeing 787s from New York?
I’m not surprised to see American finally flying 787s out of New York, and the timing is no coincidence. American is preparing to take delivery of its next batch of 30 Boeing 787-9s, and these planes will all be in an ultra-premium configuration, with an all-new business class product.
While the first route that has been disclosed for these jets will be Dallas to Brisbane (a route American is seemingly launching largely due to subsidies), this plane is very well suited for American’s New York operations as well. The plane offers a lot of premium capacity, while having less overall capacity than the 777-300ER.
Where could American fly its Boeing 787s from New York? In the long run:
- I could see the premium 787 operating New York to London flights, since it’s a route where American needs a lot of premium capacity, and wants to offer its best product
- I could see the premium 787 operating the soon-to-launch New York to Tokyo route, since this plane has much better economics than the 777, and it’s a route where the premium capacity and a competitive product is needed
- Eventually I imagine American will also flies its smaller 787-8 from New York to other destinations in Europe, since it’s American’s smallest wide body jet
We now know the first New York route that will get the 787, and it’s not any of those. Instead, as of October 27, 2024, American will start flying a 787-9 between New York and Delhi, replacing the existing 777-300ER. This isn’t one of American’s new premium 787s, but rather it’s just one of the standard ones, with 30 business class seats (which makes sense, since this route has more economy demand than premium demand).
This route has often been payload restricted on the 777-300ER, so I’m curious if the standard 787-9 performs better in that regard. This should also free up nearly two 777-300ER frames, so I wonder where American will be flying those. Or will this be the start of 777-300ERs being reconfigured with the new product, eliminating first class?
Bottom line
American will soon start flying 787s out of New York, meaning 777s will no longer be the carrier’s only wide body aircraft based out of the airport. The timing here makes sense, as American is preparing to take delivery of some premium 787s, and those are well suited for the New York market in the long run.
Beyond that, though, there are plenty of other New York routes where both the standard 787-8 and 787-9 would be a good fit. The first 787 route out of New York will be to Delhi, and that service will start as of late October 2024 with a standard 787-9.
What do you make of American basing 787s out of New York?
I assume these are South Carolina built 787’s? If so, no thanks. I’ll pay for a A350 to get safety across the Atlantic.
Actually not surprised to see this as the first 787 route. I don't think it has much to do with business class demand (UA and AI are always full), not sure however what F loads look like in 77W (if they offer that on JFK-DEL). The bigger problem is the weight restrictions. UA, even with the 787-9 they operate 2x/day to DEL from EWR have to leave empty seats coming back. Anecdotal but I also...
Actually not surprised to see this as the first 787 route. I don't think it has much to do with business class demand (UA and AI are always full), not sure however what F loads look like in 77W (if they offer that on JFK-DEL). The bigger problem is the weight restrictions. UA, even with the 787-9 they operate 2x/day to DEL from EWR have to leave empty seats coming back. Anecdotal but I also I learned this 3 times over the last 2 years flying that route and talking to FAs on the way. AI doesn't face that because they are not subject to Russian airspace restrictions. Wise move from AA!
Can someone explain why London is so easy for airlines to fill up in business class? I fly a lot this route and there is always a tun of seats available on points and I book really last minute and most of the times I have so many options.
Not really sure what you asking. You say it is so easy for airlines to fill biz class, but than say award seats are always available and you have a ton of options. Which one is it?
NYC-LON is easy to fill because it connects two of the largest cities in the world, both of which are leading business, banking, etc. centers.
“But *then* say”…
I could see a MIA route being operated with it as well. It's a premium market.
JFK - GIG (Rio de Janeiro) year round.
AA will base some of the current 787s for sure at JFK, which will do well on routes to MXP, BCN and MAD. Think places like that. New 787-9s super premium, will go to London and routes that need massive J cabins that they can fill, and LHR is not an issue. (think UA 767 high-J to LHR, GVA or ZRH etc).
Remember when BA use to have super super Hi-J configured 747-400s.
I'm...
AA will base some of the current 787s for sure at JFK, which will do well on routes to MXP, BCN and MAD. Think places like that. New 787-9s super premium, will go to London and routes that need massive J cabins that they can fill, and LHR is not an issue. (think UA 767 high-J to LHR, GVA or ZRH etc).
Remember when BA use to have super super Hi-J configured 747-400s.
I'm sure few remember BA back in the 90s toying with the idea of dumping economy altogether on their aircrafts.
AA has not had a greatly configured JFK widebody operation for a long time. New premium will go to LHR to complement BA's club, and compete against VS, oh and UA.. hmm maybe DL ;-)
I feel that the new 787 will up the premium from JFK while the 773 get refit and then I see JFK being 773 and XLR; ORD and PHL being 787 and XLR; CLT/BOS being older 772 until they are replaced by 787 but standarnd not premium. LAX, DFW and MIA will be 773 and 787 with some seasonal XLRs in MIA and PHX will transition to 787 expecially when Japan is evenutally added. AA's...
I feel that the new 787 will up the premium from JFK while the 773 get refit and then I see JFK being 773 and XLR; ORD and PHL being 787 and XLR; CLT/BOS being older 772 until they are replaced by 787 but standarnd not premium. LAX, DFW and MIA will be 773 and 787 with some seasonal XLRs in MIA and PHX will transition to 787 expecially when Japan is evenutally added. AA's in the 2030s will be 787-8,-9 and -10 with XLR for balanced international service. 772 gone before 2030 and the 773 out by 2035 or sooner. It makes sense and give AA a flexiable international fleet, espectially it travel drops. DL has too many large widebodies coming and no XLRs and UA just has a lot of planes but flexibility built in too.
AA has the POTENTIAL to be premium to HND and LHR is high premium but most of its operation at JFK is not to markets where it gets very low business class share at fares comparable to DL and UA from EWR.
At the most extreme, JFK will be mixed 777 for LHR and 787 for most of the rest of its flights - along w/ 321XLRs when they come - or it will...
AA has the POTENTIAL to be premium to HND and LHR is high premium but most of its operation at JFK is not to markets where it gets very low business class share at fares comparable to DL and UA from EWR.
At the most extreme, JFK will be mixed 777 for LHR and 787 for most of the rest of its flights - along w/ 321XLRs when they come - or it will be all 787.
as for who has too many vs. enough widebodies, DL has very little widebody growth in terms of number of units over the next 5 years after removing the 767-300ERs from the fleet which they said will happen by 2030 and off longhaul international routes by 2028.
second, DL is growing its international system, AA is largely shuffling airplanes around but does have a little bit of growth capacity over the next few years, and UA has alot of growth capacity - IF they continue to put off fleet widebody replacement. They have about 125 older and less efficient widebody aircraft including 772/ERs and 767s that need to go within the next 8 to 10 years max. Their growth will not be near as much as some have been convinced will happen.
and AA and DL's fleet spending is generally less than $4 billion per year over the next few years and both are reducing their debt.
UA will spend a MASSIVE $12 billion on aircraft this year followed by $8 billion next year according to their latest 10K. Those numbers are simply unbelievable for any company that wants to stay out of financial trouble. AA and DL are managing their fleet spending far better in terms of getting the growth they can afford.
A typical Tim Dunn response. Compare every other airline on the planet to Delta - the world's only PERFECT airline. I'm fully aware that this is my typical response, too.
You often make valid points, but IMHO, your credibility suffers from your constant comparisons with Delta.
Delta is Delta. United is United. American is American. Vive la difference!!!
I remember when airline "geeks" complained that airlines were all the same. They had to...
A typical Tim Dunn response. Compare every other airline on the planet to Delta - the world's only PERFECT airline. I'm fully aware that this is my typical response, too.
You often make valid points, but IMHO, your credibility suffers from your constant comparisons with Delta.
Delta is Delta. United is United. American is American. Vive la difference!!!
I remember when airline "geeks" complained that airlines were all the same. They had to be to survive. It's kind of refreshing to see that different carriers now have somewhat different business models. They may not all work well during a specific quarter or year, but only time will tell how well they'll work over the long term. And I'm guessing that most management teams are smart enough to adapt.
Of course everything has to refer back to DL…
I understand you want your $25,000 stake in the company to do well, but still.
first, when Gary broke this yesterday, it was obvious this was probably right. These are the kinds of stories that Jon usually gets right because he, like Gary, have access to internal AA info.
second, I have said for years that AA would improve its position in NYC if it used 787s for most of its JFK network. The plane is much more cost-efficient and with the new configuration, has the best range of...
first, when Gary broke this yesterday, it was obvious this was probably right. These are the kinds of stories that Jon usually gets right because he, like Gary, have access to internal AA info.
second, I have said for years that AA would improve its position in NYC if it used 787s for most of its JFK network. The plane is much more cost-efficient and with the new configuration, has the best range of anything in AA's fleet.
third, the best route AA could deploy the new premium 787s on would be JFK-DEL where they don't get the revenue to justify all of the premium seats on their 77Ws and won't on their hi J 789s. AA and UA frequently do not carry full loads DEL-NYC during the winter because of the flight times.
fourth, JFK-LHR would be the least logical route for the hi-J 789s. AA/BA have a lock on the market and the 77Ws are the best plane for that route. If the hi J 789s show up on JFK-LHR, it will show that the strength of LHR as a connecting hub cannot offset the weakness to LHR as a whole.
fifth, standard 789s or 788s will cut AA's costs on many JFK routes. 777s should go on routes that can better justify their high costs including from MIA and DFW
Overall, this move in basing 787s at JFK is very positive for AA.
“third, the best route AA could deploy the new premium 787s on would be JFK-DEL where they don't get the revenue to justify all of the premium seats on their 77Ws and won't on their hi J 789s.”
Huh? The new premium 787s are the high J 789s.
my phrasing is bad.
I know that IF the 787 is used to DEL, it will be with the high J 787-9s and it would make sense to do so.
The high J 787s are not going to have a business class cabin as large as on the 77Ws which are also getting reconfigured.
And the 787 will gain range because of fewer seats; the total number of seats on the "new" 77Ws will be about the same which means it doesn't gain range.
and the 787-9 is much cheaper to operate than either 777.
@lucky - I thought AA was trying to build PHL vs JFK? Seems the contrary, no?
While AA has operational constraints at JFK, its desire to establish PHL as its European waypoint is odd.
PHL offers much more domestic connectivity from its domestic network than JFK. The NE alliance with B6 would have helped matters, but still JFK for inter-terminal connections and International arrivals leaves much to be desired.
Any thoughts on AA bringing back JFK-ZRH? I believe it used to be seasonal pre-pandemic.
It was not seasonal. It operated almost continuously from 1987, when it launched alongside JFK-FRA and JFK-ORY, and then was dropped in 2015 when it was shifted to PHL. For a brief time, AA operated JFK-ZRH and JFK-PHL together, but the JFK route was dropped. The nail in the coffin on JFK-ZRH was DL entering the market. AA at the time was flying the 767-300ER with poor dispatch reliability, lousy interiors, and had lost a...
It was not seasonal. It operated almost continuously from 1987, when it launched alongside JFK-FRA and JFK-ORY, and then was dropped in 2015 when it was shifted to PHL. For a brief time, AA operated JFK-ZRH and JFK-PHL together, but the JFK route was dropped. The nail in the coffin on JFK-ZRH was DL entering the market. AA at the time was flying the 767-300ER with poor dispatch reliability, lousy interiors, and had lost a major corporate contract from a Swiss bank, which also helped end the route. I can see AA flying JFK-ZRH again with the 321XLR, if the range truly allows, down the road.
The JFK-ZRH flight was not "shifted" to PHL. PHL flew the route with US Airways before the merger with AA, and continues to with AA.
I could see AA bringing back JFK-ZRH using a 787-8.
No idea. In the short term JFK HND and JFK CDG for summer Olympics ?
JFK-CDG is flown with a 77E but will be upgauged to the 77W for the Olympics, switching off with one of the 2 JFK-FCO routes, which is going 77W for all but those two weeks this summer.
JFK-HND on the 787-9 with a premium configuration is very likely.