In the past couple of weeks, we’ve seen most major US airlines report their financial results for 2023. Among the “big three” US carriers, the results are exactly what you’d expect — Delta did best by a long shot, followed by United, followed by American.
Related to this, one interesting thing has been seeing how profit sharing differs at the major US carriers. American just announced the details of its employee profit sharing for 2023, and the numbers are leaving people very frustrated.
In this post:
American flight attendants get 1.1% profit sharing
The exact profit sharing arrangement differs by work group, though the flight attendant profit sharing is perhaps the saddest, in particular compared to peers. Among the “big three” US carriers, here’s the profit sharing arrangement for flight attendants (with the percentage being in relation to eligible annual pay):
- Delta flight attendants are getting 10.1% profit sharing
- United flight attendants are getting 9.2% profit sharing
- American flight attendants are getting 1.1% profit sharing
So yeah, Delta flight attendants are getting more than 9x as much profit sharing as American flight attendants, and that doesn’t even account for them having better pay to begin with (though American flight attendants are in the process of negotiating a new contract). So it sounds like most American flight attendants might be getting a check for a few hundred bucks, to thank them for a year of hard work.
Flight attendants confront CEO about disappointment
American CEO Robert Isom held a town hall with employees today, and there was a heated exchange between him and Julie Hedrick, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA), the union representing flight attendants. @xJonNYC shares a couple of clips of the interaction, and wow.
Flight attendants have been waiting five years on a new contract, so Hedrick confronts him about that, along with the paltry profit sharing that flight attendants are getting. As you’d expect, she gets quite some support from the audience. Isom responds by saying that:
- “We, as a company, have a lot of work to do yet, we’re recovering from a really deep hole”
- “We’re not as profitable as the industry leader, we are not, we’re far less profitable than the industry leader, and that’s why all these things that we talk about doing — straightening out our balance sheet, getting more efficient, finding ways to generate more revenue, all of that enables us to pay something that, let’s face it, is hard for us to do, given that we’re not as profitable as the industry leader”
Separately, a more junior flight attendant delivered a heartfelt message to Isom, explaining how her poor pay at American doesn’t even let her live a comfortable life where she can cover her expenses.
What a frustrating situation
I understand why flight attendants are angry. They want a new contract, and haven’t received a raise in five years. They’re also frustrated by the lack of profit sharing, and that just comes down to American’s small profits.
Flight attendants at American deserve a new contract, plain and simple, and should be paid more. It’s ridiculous that in 2023, you have full time employees who are in some cases making less than $30,000 per year, all while being based out of a city with a high cost of living. This isn’t about greed, it’s just about being able to pay your bills.
But I also understand where Isom is coming from. American isn’t as profitable as competitors, and having industry leading pay without having industry leading revenue isn’t a formula for success.
Ultimately what this comes down to is American’s poor management strategy, which I just can’t wrap my head around. American has been lagging competitors financially for more years than I can count. Yet despite that, American has kept the same management team, and they keep doing exactly the same thing and expecting different results. It’s absurd.
American needs a new leadership team with a new vision, rather than just trying the same thing over and over. American doesn’t try to differentiate itself with product. The airline is essentially just a massive domestic airline connecting Charlotte and Dallas to everywhere, while flying to a few long haul joint venture hubs, and offering summer seasonal service to Europe.
Virtually every single one of American’s “big” strategies just hasn’t panned out. Los Angeles transpacific hub? Nope. Seattle long haul hub? Nope. New York long haul hub? Nope. The list goes on…
Here’s an idea — how about paying American’s top executives purely in the form of profit sharing? They get a certain percentage of profits, and the compensation percentage increases the bigger the profits.
So much about the way that publicly traded companies in the US do business just makes little sense to me, in particular the relationship between executives and the board. For how many years can you let someone keep doing the same thing while underperforming, without thinking that it might be better to try a fresh approach? The same can be said for JetBlue under Robin Hayes’ tenure…
Bottom line
American flight attendants have just learned that they’re getting 1.1% profit sharing for 2023, and they’re not happy with that, when Delta flight attendants are getting 10.1% profit sharing. I don’t blame them for their frustration.
Ultimately at American there just aren’t many profits to share, and that’s the fault of the company’s leadership team, which can’t seem to develop a cohesive strategy. American is essentially a high cost version of Spirit, except with a lucrative loyalty program.
What do you make of this American profit sharing fiasco?
How can someone making $31.4 million dollars say the company is hurting? Shouldn’t leaders cut THEIR salaries..FIRST? To show compassion and earnestness.
It’s the AA corporate culture. They had a nasty negotiation with their pilots and when it was settled the pilots got $9 billion in contract with improvements … and management got $0 in goodwill from the pilots. The relationship is as sour as ever. AA will never learn.
If there are, as you say, not that many profits to share, where's the money coming from for the huge new airplane order AA just announced.
Sorry, no, the money was there for a massive pilots contract and for the ground people. FA's are clearly sub-human enough to not be respected.
Unionized employees should not share in a profits generated in spite of them. Look what your union has got you now.
You comment is ignorant. All work groups at AA is UNION. We ALL worked hard for this airline to keep going from 9/11, thru covid and forward. I was on a flight the first day we started back a week after 9/11 and I worked thru covid, as did most employees.
I am new here and a 34 year AA F/A. You would be angry and deflated too if you saw your airline go from being the best to what it is today. Also, one day you are told "you are the face of American" and how we spend the most time with the passengers and its up to us to turn a bad situation around to keep that upset passenger. We are slapped, punched, kicked,...
I am new here and a 34 year AA F/A. You would be angry and deflated too if you saw your airline go from being the best to what it is today. Also, one day you are told "you are the face of American" and how we spend the most time with the passengers and its up to us to turn a bad situation around to keep that upset passenger. We are slapped, punched, kicked, spit on, yelled at. Guard the cockpit from crazies, of which we are on our own. The pilots responsibility is to get the plane on the ground. The first responder for medical issues on board and its are duty to evacuate in an emergency. The next day, Management will tell us we have ZERO AFFECT ON PROFITABILITY and treated with no respect, like some of you writing on here. Many of you do not understand that EVERY THING WE DO, SAY OR TELL YOU TO DO is backed by a FAR, EVERYTHING. We are REQUIRED to follow those rules or risk fines and job loss. FAR's are governement mandated, not company. That safety demo has to be verbatim. No, we cant serve you a drink once the door is closed. Yes, we have to pick up those drinks before take off. Your bag has to be UNDER the seat in front of you. Laptop stowed for takeoff. Devices out of the seat back holder. EVERYTHING is a FAR.
I was hired during a time when class, respect, sophistication and having a work ethic actually meant something. I was proud to be an American Airlines Flight Attendant. AA has been going downhill after Crandall. But since we merged with USAir and got their management its been a downward spiral. The CURRENT management are clueless when it comes to running an International Operation. They try to run it like a domestic operation and their low cost carrier mentality. Not every one is cheap like, we are not selling $49 tickets to Florida. People from other parts of the world still expect a certain level of sophistication. Delta and United have surpassed us greatly in the international market. We basically have no flying on the west coast, international or domestic, Went from 3 bases to 1. DFW has ONE international flight, London. Yes, I understand we are building the east coast and covid affected some of this, but some of this was already happening before covid. We are now getting less airplanes than originally ordered, some are on a 5 year plan. All came about the same time the pilots got their contract. The quality of our outsourced services is horrible, and that reflects on AA because people do not understand the difference, they think it is all AA. Catering is out sourced if we are missing something thats it, we go with out. Doesnt matter if its your special meal or the Glenlivet. We can call to try and get it but not likely going to happen and the door has to be closed by a certain time. Wheelchairs, outsourced. I cringe when I see poorly trained wheelchair employees and they are handling our most vulnerable passengers.
A FA can not step one foot off the airplane when there are passengers on board (FAR) and a BIG one that is constantly monitered. So if we are not always helping its because we dont want to risk our job or pays fines. The FAA can fine $2000 just for stepping off the AC. The FA is responsible for that, the company doesnt pay it. ANY of the FARs can incur similar or more in fines.
I non-rev on Delta to work as much as I do on AA. The level of respect and care they have for eachother is always so astounding to me because at AA it is divide and conquer. This breeding ground of animosity towards other work groups. I am treated better by Delta employees than on my own airline. THAT starts with Management. But yet I still go to work with the same work ethic, responsibility and care I have always had, even tho I know it is not appreciated or respected by management or many passengers. I do it for the passengers and for my self respect, something so lacking in society today.
Our uniforms are hideous. You know that saying, if you look good, you feel good, so true. I see pics of employees taken for commercial uses and I think to myself, does corporate really think we look good??? The navy blue looks faded right off the hanger. Almost no one is wearing navy blue anymore. There is no style to it, it is frumpy. The fabric looks wrinkly even after its washed and pressed. I have been wearing Navy blue for 34 YEARS. UGH. Its that low cost mentality again, we are one step away from the uniform looking like it came from Cintas. Its hard to feel full of pride wearing it, Meanwhile the other carriers, ESPECIALLY International carriers, have really nice and/or beautiful uniforms. We are supposed to be the FACE of AA, right?! The Credit Card announcements, that every one hates hearing? They arent going anywhere, AA wants us to do it. Thats where airlines are getting a big chunk of their money these days.
Im sure there will be those miserable complainers making their comments. I am fully aware that some of my coworkers have a lower standard. Some of the newer people are of a different generation of entitlement, using their cell phones constantly. Im also aware there are people out there you can never make happy and are just miserable, entitled, blokes. Life is too short to be miserable, especially when things are out of our or your control. Management is making all those amenity decisions. They tell us we cant offer anything outside of their guide lines. They do not want us to let you sit in that empty FC or BC seat. Also, what about the people who paid for their FC, BC or PE seat? Im not supposed to give you more than ONE alcohol mini at a time. There are not any EXTRA pillows, blankets or meals.
But, please, do not judge us all the same. We still have amazing flight attendants out there! We come to work fully knowing we are not appreciated or respected by our company or by passengers and still do a good job. Are kind and cooperative with our coworkers to get flights out on time. And will still go above and beyond!
I THANK ALL THOSE WONDERFUL PASSENGERS WHO ACKNOWLEDGE US AND OUR EFFORTS AND ACTUALLY APPRECIATE AND RESPECT US!
You really said the true facts. Alots of the comments are people who doesn't work in the airlines business. Airlines need to get the employees involved more and not treat us as a employees number.
Maybe there should be an article done about Level 5 and above bonus payments!!!! It’s not 1.2% for those people!!!!!!!!!
The ENTIRE management team needs to be FIRED!!!!! This management team could even run a McDonalds drive through!! Keep in mind the FA team is unpaid, how about non union employees?? We get the shaft on a daily basis from this PATHETIC management team!!
The FA's deserve more...a lot more. The problem could be that the greedy pilots took all the payroll money in their new contract.
It’s time now for the FA union to go out on strike!! This is absolutely ridiculous for this company to keep stalling with this work group! No problem doubling the pilots pay but nothing for us regular folks!! The time has come to take action!
One word: SHAMEFUL!!!
Used to work at American corporate and left shortly after the new executive leadership transitioned. Not worth it - they pay less than other companies claiming flight benefits make up for it. AA is draining talent in analyst and managerial functions and it’s showing in how poorly they’re being run.
It’s amazing all the hate there is for AA flight attendants. I’ve been a FA for 27 yrs . Began my career at USAirways . I am ver y proud of what I do and I treat me customers with the up most care and attention. This is more than just pay and profit sharing for us . It’s about respecting and valuing your employees . Which AA is not . While our CEO gets...
It’s amazing all the hate there is for AA flight attendants. I’ve been a FA for 27 yrs . Began my career at USAirways . I am ver y proud of what I do and I treat me customers with the up most care and attention. This is more than just pay and profit sharing for us . It’s about respecting and valuing your employees . Which AA is not . While our CEO gets a $1.2 million dollar bonus and $8 million in stock . We are still living in 2019 wages and work rules . Yes , there are bad apples at every company . But we have very good employees at AA . And we do not deserve these hateful comments . I hope to have one of you on one of my flights one day and show you that we are not the assholes you portray us to be . Fly safe .
"American flight attendants get 1.1% profit sharing"
Based on the service aboard on international flights, compared to virtually every other full service airline, 1.1% is WAY TOO MUCH!
Based on the pre departure service a, compared to every other legacy airline, 1.1% is WAY TOO MUCH!
Fire them all and start over!
Wow .Fire us all . Thank you …
How many screen names are you going to create? You're not actually fooling anyone. Your writing style gives you away, every time.
Maybe AAA is suitable.
We give you what we are given, told what to give or ALLOWED. If you are on an International Flight we are to do Prosecco, water and orange juice. On many International flights the liqour carts are locked and bonded and we CAN NOT even open them or serve any other alcohol than a sparkling wine. So you will have to write to all the countries and their customs policies and procedures and get them...
We give you what we are given, told what to give or ALLOWED. If you are on an International Flight we are to do Prosecco, water and orange juice. On many International flights the liqour carts are locked and bonded and we CAN NOT even open them or serve any other alcohol than a sparkling wine. So you will have to write to all the countries and their customs policies and procedures and get them to change those if you want something besides the above. Good Luck with that. I find it hard to believe any other airline is doing anything different if those are the customs policies. So either they are breaking the law or have a different arrangement. I personally would not risk hundreds or thousands of dollars in fines for someone like you or anyone for that matter.
Profit or loss is a shared outcome. The indifferent shown to customers results in lower revenues. Sharing those lower revenues is on all the employees of AA. Personally, I spend a premium of my personal funds to purchase Delta F rather than the ofeten lower price AA F fares. I want to feel valued. For me DL not AA. Reap what you sow AA employees.
AA flight attendants are the nasty and not friendly at all maybe 1 out of 5 are nice
Of course Delta flight attendants get more they are always smiling fake or not and happy to assist
there is a Big difference in service Delta is a 10 AA is a 4
So you get what you GIVE
Aren’t these AA flight attendants those who block off evacuation routes will trolleys so they don’t get disturbed? They should thank god that they got a bonus and not the boot.
Well, considering you cant open the doors INFLIGHT not sure how they are blocking escape routes. ALL carts are stowed unless inflight or if they are being set up.
Escape route? You're gonna jump out of the airplane at 36,000 feet? Couldn't even open the doors if you wanted to but ok.
First, when are you ever going to evacuate 30,000 ft in air and secondly the cart only comes out to block off the entrance to cockpit when pilots are using the restroom for YOUR safety. Situational awareness is something you should practice.
Flight attendants are living with 12 roommates to get by. I'll bet Isom owns more than one house.... I just don't see that he, as a CEO, adds that much more value than a flight attendant who is actually interacting with the customers.
FA's can do an amazing job, but every business unit is essential to the airlines' operation, and it takes someone to lead all of the units...so your well-intended comment is ultimately silly.
It starts at the top. Employees can only do so much with what they are given.
The point Alonzo seems to be missing is that when employees feel valued they provide better service to the paying customer. When management clearly cares less about the airline’s performance, brand or employees, then that in turn ricochets back to the quality of service customers are going to experience. No one is going to bust their ass for a pittance worth of pay. That is just common sense! Everyone deserves a liveable wage to pay...
The point Alonzo seems to be missing is that when employees feel valued they provide better service to the paying customer. When management clearly cares less about the airline’s performance, brand or employees, then that in turn ricochets back to the quality of service customers are going to experience. No one is going to bust their ass for a pittance worth of pay. That is just common sense! Everyone deserves a liveable wage to pay bills and put food on the table. American Airline’s has never broken out of their good old boy Harvard attitude. They keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results on a proven failed strategy. Don’t blame the employees for lack of quality service. Blame the executives who cannot perform and get absurd bonuses for running an airline into the ground.
Your comment is silly. AA FAs have been lazy for more than a generation.
Tie pay to reviews by customers... AA FAs will be giving money back.
I don't expect a lot. When I am sitting in FC, pre-departure beverage, friendly service, and food and beverages every so often. Nothing crazy. I am always nice, but it is not always reciprocated.
34 year AA FA, I have many good reviews from my passengers and coworkers. AA does do surveys with passengers and the results are usually pretty good. So i dont know where you are getting your info and it is quite silly and dramatic to say AA FAs will be giving money back.
I dont know how long you have been flying on AA, I have been here 34 years. When predeparture drinks were...
34 year AA FA, I have many good reviews from my passengers and coworkers. AA does do surveys with passengers and the results are usually pretty good. So i dont know where you are getting your info and it is quite silly and dramatic to say AA FAs will be giving money back.
I dont know how long you have been flying on AA, I have been here 34 years. When predeparture drinks were started long ago things were much different. FC had 8-12 seats, now we have 16-20, and the same 35 mins to board. Aisles were WIDER. Planes are full and we have more responsibilities than before. Agents are under stress to get the door closed 5 mins before departure time, of which can not be done until ALL overhead bins are closed. (FAR) If you travel so much Im sure you have noticed the steady stream of passengers for nearly the entire 30 mins. We board the passengers in the back of the airplane last. We have to wait until they are done stowing in the bins so we can close them and then close the AC door. Announcements must be made at certain times (FAR). Exit rows must be briefed (FAR) We have to make sure pax dont have bags on the floor by their feet, against the wall, ect, before the AC moves (FAR) Once the door is closed we can no longer SERVE ANYTHING (FAR) So if we close 10-15 mins early, that is not the FAs fault, we don t control that. We cant stop the flow of boarding or it will delay our boarding. Im not going to squeeze between passengers and bags during boarding and risk spilling on a FC passenger. At the very least, if I can get a tray of water and OJ served, which is much quicker than taking 20 individual drink orders, I WILL. I really dont understand the desperation for a DRINK, unless you have a drinking problem. International is a different story, we have locked and bonded liqour that we cant open. We are only allowed to serve sparkling wine no other alcohol. along with OJ and waters. I have NEVER seen an international flight not do pre-dep.
Managements the problem: aa needs to poach some dl executives. Our guys (im a recently retired aa737 captain) took the pandemic $ and used it to pay pilots to retire early. Dl bought A350 widebodies with it. We retired all our paid-for 757,767 & A330’s, Dl kept their fleet intact.
Now that its winter,Aa cant profitably fly its new 787’s because it cant fill every seat. Had we kept the old planes we could..
I was on the DFW DL Business Advisory Council: at a meeting the DL-ATL execs came in laughing, a retired DL exec was conducting a seminar down the hall for AA-management "How to be more like Delta!"
Well they didnt pay attention.
What I don't understand is why do these people complain about the pay? This isn't the Soviet Union (yet) where you have no choice in your job. Your union mandates your pay. Work for a company that pays more or better yourself to get a different higher paying job
No.
Absolutely! Flight Attendants know from the beginning what the union pay scale is. They can take it or leave it and move on.
My son works for American Airlines as a flight attendant. I see people posting about how he and his colleagues are over paid . I want everyone to know that for his 12 hour days he is only paid for 6-8 hours. No pay until the door closes and he has to report at least one hour early. This is a long time to have no contract and this 1.1 % profit sharing is a...
My son works for American Airlines as a flight attendant. I see people posting about how he and his colleagues are over paid . I want everyone to know that for his 12 hour days he is only paid for 6-8 hours. No pay until the door closes and he has to report at least one hour early. This is a long time to have no contract and this 1.1 % profit sharing is a smack in the face to all the hard working flight attendants that have put up with us needy and sometime rude passengers.
He is 100% overpaid. If he doesn't like it, quit or go work somewhere else.
Poor service is poor service.
Flight attendants are there for your safety. Not for service you potato
The discontent can be felt in customer service on AA. If feasible, I fly DL from DAL to ATL to avoid AA (that includes the EZE flight, non-stop from DFW). Best described as having been invited to somebody's home, when you open the door you feel like you interrupted a yelling, screaming, throwing things at each other argument. That continues for the entire flight. Are there some employees still working under Plan B? In prior...
The discontent can be felt in customer service on AA. If feasible, I fly DL from DAL to ATL to avoid AA (that includes the EZE flight, non-stop from DFW). Best described as having been invited to somebody's home, when you open the door you feel like you interrupted a yelling, screaming, throwing things at each other argument. That continues for the entire flight. Are there some employees still working under Plan B? In prior years I put the feel of trauma down to that.
Flight Attendants haven’t had a pay raise in 5 years. While the average flight attendant brought home about $480 in profit sharing, while the CEO bought home 1.3 million in profit sharing. Leadership has / will aways fail, when they don’t take their employees seriously. How many millions does an airline need to make to be profitable, it AA has high debt they should have ask upper management to return their profit sharing checks. Not...
Flight Attendants haven’t had a pay raise in 5 years. While the average flight attendant brought home about $480 in profit sharing, while the CEO bought home 1.3 million in profit sharing. Leadership has / will aways fail, when they don’t take their employees seriously. How many millions does an airline need to make to be profitable, it AA has high debt they should have ask upper management to return their profit sharing checks. Not one airline executive was willing to give up the salary during Covid-19, when the airlines were losing money! AA needs new leadership with a new strategic plan, someone who will make the airline a leader again.
In the case of AA, I empathize with the cabin crew and really all customer facing employees. I can see why these groups do the minimum...senior leaderships is telling them to do so:
1. Remodeling aircraft with bare bones amenities and cramped work spaces
2. Various memos sent to flight crew telling them not to provide amenities that are not part of the standard service for the cabin (i.e. - not giving a coach...
In the case of AA, I empathize with the cabin crew and really all customer facing employees. I can see why these groups do the minimum...senior leaderships is telling them to do so:
1. Remodeling aircraft with bare bones amenities and cramped work spaces
2. Various memos sent to flight crew telling them not to provide amenities that are not part of the standard service for the cabin (i.e. - not giving a coach class customer a blanket on a domestic flight because that's only for first class customers)
3. Stricter policies on rebooking customers during IRROPS
AA likes to frame this as providing a "consistent customer experience." But they way it's communicated...Don't do this, don't do that, etc. In a culture like that, I would be the same way.
Quit trying to justify the poor service that AA gives.
AA employees don't even do the jobs they are told and paid to do.
btw, my brother spent his career at AA. I've seen plenty.
There are blankets on the planes in domestic flights? I haven’t seen one on an AA domestic flight (or dl or ua) since the pandemic started.
So you have ONE persons view? out of 100,000 employees and your bro worked there. Woo hoo!! If he was in Management I can just imagine what he has to say. We are VERY restricted by management. We cant offer anything. They are low cost mentality.
I get great friendly service from Ultra low cost carriers in Asia. They are not paid well. Oh - and the FAs clean the cabin too!
There is no excuse for poor service and attitude.
You are totally correct. We are told those things and its a shame. Low cost carrier mentality of management.
Simply stated, AA, in reality, is the upper echelon of the no frills airlines. Both management and FAs are at fault.
Management tries to cut cost at every corner, IFE is a great example. In economy, when walking on board and looking around, what is the difference between AA, Frontier, or Spirit flight?
As for the in flight experience, FAs ..... You work for AA, not ConAir, the people on your planes are...
Simply stated, AA, in reality, is the upper echelon of the no frills airlines. Both management and FAs are at fault.
Management tries to cut cost at every corner, IFE is a great example. In economy, when walking on board and looking around, what is the difference between AA, Frontier, or Spirit flight?
As for the in flight experience, FAs ..... You work for AA, not ConAir, the people on your planes are your customers, and not your prisoners during transport. The FAs need to be more attentive to their customers and not as rude. Yes, rude. While it is not the case with every FA, it is too often. Enough to have us choose your competitor.
The FAs may be able to increase the percentage of their profit sharing in their next contract, but if the profits are lower or there is a loss, a higher percentage of "0" is a lot less than 1.1 % of $19 million.
Although AA usually has the lowest fare of the three major airlines, we choose either Delta or United. AA management and FAs .... having people want to fly on your airline may increase your profits.
This line really has become amusing. The claims about AA somehow being a ULCC in terms of product are funny, but incredibly ignorant.
Economy on AA vs DL/UA/NK/F9
1. Legroom in economy:
A: about the same on AA/DL/UA -- most are at 30", including DL though they do go to 31" on some rows. In no case whatsoever is AA ever the same legroom as NK or F9 despite this weird feeling that the...
This line really has become amusing. The claims about AA somehow being a ULCC in terms of product are funny, but incredibly ignorant.
Economy on AA vs DL/UA/NK/F9
1. Legroom in economy:
A: about the same on AA/DL/UA -- most are at 30", including DL though they do go to 31" on some rows. In no case whatsoever is AA ever the same legroom as NK or F9 despite this weird feeling that the legroom is somehow different on AA
B: not on F9/NK -- I believe they're at about 28" -- also look at their seats. It's very different on AA vs NK/F9
2. Free drinks/snacks
A. AA/DL/UA -- The same, Yes. Though it's fair to give credit to DL for having higher quality snacks -- non-alcohol drinks are the same but I do find that AA is more likely to default to giving customers the can vs DL/UA but only personal observation
B. Not on NK/F9
3. Basic Economy
A. Bring an overhead bag for free -- AA/DL -- yes
B. UA/NK/F9 -- No.
4. High Speed Wifi
A. Yes on DL and free
B. Yes on AA and not free (unless you have T Mobile)
C. United hit or miss.
D. NK -- Some
E: F9 -- No.
5. Free Liquor in Economy+
A. AA/DL -- Yes
B. United/NK/F9 -- Believe the answer for all three is still no though I believe most in this class on UA would get it due to status but it isn't for everyone.
6. Big Bins to fit all your overhead bags
A. AA-- Yes. Due to the retrofit
B. DL/UA on some, yes
C. NK/F9 -- Unlikely but it can happen and you'd pay for the privilege to bring your overhead anyway
7. IFE
A. DL -- Yes
B. United -- Maybe but getting there
C. AA/NK/F9 -- No
8. Free entertainment
A. AA/DL/UA -- Yes with great selection
B. NK/F9 -- No.
9. Powerports
A. AA/DL -- yes
B. United -- If you're on a Jeff Smizek bird, you're out of luck but they are fixing this.
C. NK/F9 -- Don't believe so?
well said other than that Delta's standard economy class pitch is 31" with some seats 32" and some 30" but the majority is not 30"
and I have never had an AA, DL or UA FA not give me a can if I asked and WN will do the same but not necessarily during the main beverage service.
It is fair to say that AA is not a ULCC.
I get why you’d say that, Tim, but according to delta’s fleet site, every plane in their fleet is 30” (except the a223) as standard in the back. When every plane has it, that’s your standard, not 31” like Ed used to say (but you’ll notice he stopped saying it when his own website says otherwise)
I fly Frontier weekly and AA monthly. AA is not a ULCC. You get a beverage service, tray table, seat can be canceled for a trip credit, and the seats recline on AA. That said, economy is largely a comodity product. Most alirlines offer a standard 17 or 18 inch seat with minimal padding.
Thank you for reading and taking the time to respond to my post. It appears that I have moved you to the point of putting a great deal of thought and time into your response.
You made very good factual points in sections 1-9 which respond to the first four sentences of my post . I was simply writing about my impression when walking on board and looking around. Thank you for the detailed...
Thank you for reading and taking the time to respond to my post. It appears that I have moved you to the point of putting a great deal of thought and time into your response.
You made very good factual points in sections 1-9 which respond to the first four sentences of my post . I was simply writing about my impression when walking on board and looking around. Thank you for the detailed analysis.
Everything you have stated, 1-9, is 100% correct, and supports my statement of AA being in the upper echelon.
Your response was focused on the first two paragraphs and did not address the comments in the three paragraphs that followed, including the third paragraph relating my experiences with the FAs on AA on many occasions. Those are my experiences, and in reading the comments made by many others, not simply mine. FAs are possibly the number one point of contact between the airline and the customer. And as I stated, not all, but often enough, a negative impression.
Comments in this blog show that many people choose another airline over AA, reducing sales and profits for AA, while increasing sales and profits for the other airlines.
Awesome! Someone who actually knows what they are talking about and not just blowing steam out their arse.
Please explain to me why people stay at a company that does not pay them enough? They could quit and go to Delta. I am not in the FA industry but know that Delta has the better pay and no union fees. Why do people stay making less than $30k?
It's also worth noting that Delta is (re)opening a flight attendant base at DFW as well as several other cities including PHX, LAS and TPA
Starting pay at most domestic airlines is about the same. In an industry that is purely seniority based, once you've invested even just a few years in one company it's difficult to go elsewhere and have to start over.
Yes, you do not know. At AA we pay $480 a year in union dues, totally insignificant. Pretty much all 3 majors start at the same wages. If you stick it out, in the long run it is worth it. It is also a lifestyle and job that is not for every one. No one can justify not getting a raise for 5 years.
In a word: sAAd.
At some point if labor rises fares have to go up. Fares go up and the lower end of the market can't fly. The COVID stymies are all gone and the credit cards are all maxed out. Someone making $35K a year doesn't have $500 for an emergency let alone a flight to go see Mickey. Less seats to fill will mean less planes which means layoffs are coming. Flight attendants need to pick their poison.
You are right that the FAs need to design what they want - but the current AA FA contract is as much about chest-thumping union leaders as it is about the company.
AA offered months ago to match DL FA's pay scale and profit sharing (which won't yield as much for AA FAs because AA makes less money) but no union leader is going to agree to "settle" for what a non-union FA makes....
You are right that the FAs need to design what they want - but the current AA FA contract is as much about chest-thumping union leaders as it is about the company.
AA offered months ago to match DL FA's pay scale and profit sharing (which won't yield as much for AA FAs because AA makes less money) but no union leader is going to agree to "settle" for what a non-union FA makes. What is the point of a union in that case?
Add in that AA FA leadership is being pulled between senior and junior FAs and the problem in not getting a contract settled is as much if not more about FA leadership and chest-thumping as it is about what AA will agree to.
There will be substantially less capacity in the industry than planned in part because of Boeing's problems. Multiple airlines - nearly all MAX customers and including AS, WN and UA - have said deliveries will be delayed. AA only has about 20 MAX aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2024 so they will be much less impacted than larger MAX customers. WN cut its planned aircraft deliveries and growth for 2024 by as many MAXs as AA is scheduled to receive. AA will get some MAX 8s even if a few will be delayed.
Lower capacity will push up yields for all carriers; yields were weak across the board from earnings releases so far.
There are MANY parts to FA pay. Pay scale and profit sharing are 2 out 27. So it is not as simple as they matched Delta and we dont want it. Im not in love with my union by any means. When you represent only ONE company there is no leverage. Its not like TWU or UAW. Actually, we are getting 25 max, 7-787 and 3-A320neos in 2024, That was as of the 3rdQ announcement. But the numbers keep changing.
Any idea what the other work groups within AA received for profit-sharing?
I believe the Flight attendants are the last group in that profit sharing plan that aa gave with no negotiating by the unions. All the other groups should be on the same type as delta: a profit sharing pool off 10% of 2.5b in profits then 20% after that.
That said, the Gate agents and reservation folks just ratified their new agreement so their payout this year would likely be on the Old plan...
I believe the Flight attendants are the last group in that profit sharing plan that aa gave with no negotiating by the unions. All the other groups should be on the same type as delta: a profit sharing pool off 10% of 2.5b in profits then 20% after that.
That said, the Gate agents and reservation folks just ratified their new agreement so their payout this year would likely be on the Old plan which was a profit sharing plan based off 5% of profits.
But as others have said, aa makes less money but they also spread the profit sharing pool among more people than delta: AA’s profit sharing pool is spread with envoy, PSA, and Piedmont. Delta doesn’t share their big profit sharing pool with endeavor last I checked.
I truly hope the AA flight attendants get their contract done, but I don’t have a lot of sympathy for someone crying about their wages when they’re written in black and white before you started your job as a Flight Attendant and the union leadership
* the elected union leadership insists on some deal that they’re not going to get and simply delays the new wages for membership.
How Many times does the NMB need to deny the union’s request to strike before the members realize their union leaders are lying to them and only trying to save their own union leadership jobs?
Please STOP with the drama. Too much tik tok.
We have only asked ONCE, until a few days ago, so they have denied it ONCE. This time they are giving AA til February 2 to work it out.
I knew we would agree on something. :-) well said
;)
No one can justify not getting a raise for 5 years.
Two quick observations:
1. The fact that the FA's haven't had a contract is at least 50% the fault of the union. It takes two to negotiate, and the union has to take their share of the responsibility as well.
2. Many of the comments below reference the 20% increase in cost of living in the last four years. Perhaps if the unions had endorsed and supported the other presidential candidate in 2020, we wouldn't be in this mess.
> Perhaps if the unions had endorsed and supported the other presidential candidate in 2020, we wouldn't be in this mess.
Hah, the US economy is doing better than every other advanced economy. We have higher growth and lower inflation than Canada and the eurozone, our CPI has dropped more than comparable economies since COVID, and our unemployment is at all-time lows. The Biden admin has worked a legit miracle in terms of economic...
> Perhaps if the unions had endorsed and supported the other presidential candidate in 2020, we wouldn't be in this mess.
Hah, the US economy is doing better than every other advanced economy. We have higher growth and lower inflation than Canada and the eurozone, our CPI has dropped more than comparable economies since COVID, and our unemployment is at all-time lows. The Biden admin has worked a legit miracle in terms of economic recovery from the pandemic.
What's actually telling in this article is the flight attendant's story about living with 12 coworkers in Boston. To me, that's a failure of housing policy specifically, not a wider economic failure. Federal government does not control housing policy, that's a municipal- and county-level zoning issue, and much of what it comes down to is that the US has underbuilt housing for half a century, and most of what has been built until very recently was predominantly single-family homes. Zoning rules typically prohibit anything denser, even right next to our urban cores.
End result is that housing supply is very constrained, driving the price up for both renters and new owners. There's no way out of this except to build, especially by adding more infill and allowing denser housing in urban and urban-adjacent areas. SF is an excellent example of this, with around 80% of the city area being zoned for only single-family detached housing, despite being geographically constrained by the bay and mountains. No new housing meant skyrocketing housing costs, pushing working class people out to Oakland, and then all the other little bay area 'burbs, and now even that isn't affordable for the teachers, clerks, housekeepers, firefighters, construction workers, and all the other people that actually make the city run.
When did "profit sharing" become expected by employees? You can buy stock in these companies if you choose. The concept of "profit sharing" is simply Marxism in disguise. My employees have zero rights to any information on my balance sheets much less any right to a piece of profits.
If one is unhappy with the wages paid by American, I'm sure they can easily find a job with any other domestic airline. Remember there is...
When did "profit sharing" become expected by employees? You can buy stock in these companies if you choose. The concept of "profit sharing" is simply Marxism in disguise. My employees have zero rights to any information on my balance sheets much less any right to a piece of profits.
If one is unhappy with the wages paid by American, I'm sure they can easily find a job with any other domestic airline. Remember there is a staff shortage out there - which equates to higher wages for the worker. If you expect a piece of corporate profits, then you should buy a part of the company.
Look at the American executive team, they all have very good profit sharing. Apparently it is Marxism if low level employees have profit sharing but good business to provide the executive team profit sharing
You're a moron if you don't understand the difference here. Airlines are now expected to simply give away a fraction of their profits to employees - unlike any other private company. Corporate admin is compensated based on what the board of directors determines. If you think that's unfair, then you will have to own a significant percent of the company to gain a seat at the table.
This is the same marxist train of...
You're a moron if you don't understand the difference here. Airlines are now expected to simply give away a fraction of their profits to employees - unlike any other private company. Corporate admin is compensated based on what the board of directors determines. If you think that's unfair, then you will have to own a significant percent of the company to gain a seat at the table.
This is the same marxist train of thought that forced Swiss corporations to never pay the CEO greater than 40X the lowest paid worker. But they still devised a work around using stock options. Liberals/Marxists are dumb and even dumber at actually running a business.
You guys remember when Proctor & Gamble introduced a profit-sharing component to their employee comp packages, anticipating Marx's writings by 50 years.
When’s the last time you ask your employee if their happy working for less?
First of all, it's "they're" not "their". Big difference. When you spell like an idiot you are an idiot.
I don't have to ask them this question. If they are not happy with my wages, they can either ask for a wage or seek employment elsewhere. This is the point of free market enterprise for both consumption and labor.
If you're not happy with the price of Apple Jacks cereal you can easily buy...
First of all, it's "they're" not "their". Big difference. When you spell like an idiot you are an idiot.
I don't have to ask them this question. If they are not happy with my wages, they can either ask for a wage or seek employment elsewhere. This is the point of free market enterprise for both consumption and labor.
If you're not happy with the price of Apple Jacks cereal you can easily buy other products or go to another store. It's a beautiful and simple concept of free market equilibrium. But Marxists like yourself will never understand.
OMG, grammar police. I get it , it's annoying. But to point it out is just ridiculous. I'm a victim of my spell checker and talk text and totally irrelevant, it still gets the point across.
Nobody becomes an FA to become rich. They do it for the benefits. That's why so many FA's will work for as long as they can in their Longshot.
And a 9% increase in profit sharing doesn't move the compensation needle after taxes are calculated. Let's stop acting like AA FA's are woefully underpaid. It's simple math, AA's profits aren't high enough in the industry to increase FA comp. FA's comp always and has always...
Nobody becomes an FA to become rich. They do it for the benefits. That's why so many FA's will work for as long as they can in their Longshot.
And a 9% increase in profit sharing doesn't move the compensation needle after taxes are calculated. Let's stop acting like AA FA's are woefully underpaid. It's simple math, AA's profits aren't high enough in the industry to increase FA comp. FA's comp always and has always been low. Thank the pilots who are getting pay percentage increases larger than freaking UPS drivers. And AA FA's provide the worst service of the big 3 by a longshot.
On your last point to thank the pilots, I think we can rather than greddy CEOs and Board members who are pocketing more than every these days (can be said about the majority if not all of large companies in the USA). The discrepancy between the top and bottom paid employees in large firms just keep on increasing yearly, and everyone prefers blaming the common employee
If United took Kirby's pay away, all of his compensation, and divided it up between all of their 92000+ employees, each employee would get around $93.
AA will provide better compensation once FAs ratify a new contract. DL already provided raises to FAs and enhaced compensation after it settled generously with its pilots
On top of the poor profit sharing as compared to DL, aren't DL FAs not unionized, so in addition to higher pay and better profit sharing they also don't have to pay dues to their union which for AA FAs probably ends up being more than this "bonus" from profit sharing.
End of the day AA really has an identity crisis, they want to pretend they're a premium carrier while their actions are anything...
On top of the poor profit sharing as compared to DL, aren't DL FAs not unionized, so in addition to higher pay and better profit sharing they also don't have to pay dues to their union which for AA FAs probably ends up being more than this "bonus" from profit sharing.
End of the day AA really has an identity crisis, they want to pretend they're a premium carrier while their actions are anything but and that is 100% on the leadership. While UA and DL are improving their cabins AA is Spiritifying theirs, their food and beverages are shambles and they do not maintain high service levels. They want to ask consumers to pay a premium for that which otherwise would be offered at discount prices, to the amazement of no one this isn't working out.
At AA union dues are $480 a year. Not even close.
Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, the net income margins for the big 4 for 2023 were AA right at 1.5%, WN just over that, UA just under 5% and DL just under 8%.
So there is a pretty clear step up between AA and WN at the bottom, UA in the middle, and DL at the top.
Profit sharing reflects the total profits. DL profit sharing is so...
Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, the net income margins for the big 4 for 2023 were AA right at 1.5%, WN just over that, UA just under 5% and DL just under 8%.
So there is a pretty clear step up between AA and WN at the bottom, UA in the middle, and DL at the top.
Profit sharing reflects the total profits. DL profit sharing is so much higher because DL is so much more profitable. UA FAs are getting a more generous profit sharing but still don't have a new contract.
Let's be clear that Southwest FAs have also done fairly well with profit sharing and aren't getting much because WN's net profit margin was only slightly higher than AA's.
and it isn't lost on anyone that DL FAs are the only ones that have seen their pay increase post-covid.
and it is precisely because DL has raised pay of all of its employees that its costs are not going to go up much while AA, UA and WN will all be shelling out more money for FA pay - but they have been trying to accrue the higher costs so they don't face a big bill.
It was you, Ben, that commented that the higher labor costs - which Delta set in motion - are just not sustainable in the current revenue environment for many airlines.
AA and WN aren't looking at a very good year.
UA will see its growth cut dramatically as will every other airline that is dependent on MAX deliveries.
2024 looked so promising - but that evaporated pretty quickly.
Delta also doesn't pay profit sharing to their wholly own subsidiaries. American does. Even using the new AA profit sharing formula in new CBA's, which is in line with Delta, and having equal profit to Delta, American employees will always receive a smaller amount relative to Delta simply because Delta is not generous with who they pay. Delta has always snubbed its employees who don't work for the mainline brand.
Other work groups at AA got 10%. So your argument is irrelevant.
Folks here bring up stock options n regards to Ben’s suggestion of paying executives only in profit sharing, as-if that’s the ONLY way.
May be, they can be paid in cash like all other employees will be and the profit sharing will be directly linked to the top and bottom line instead of stock performance.
easier said than done. is it that so simple as to just go out and hire good management with offering profit sharing? Where do you actually find the good management people? When you think you are spending good money hiring good management, does it guarantee to turn out to be a success? It's not easy but you are absolutely right that if things are not working, make a change! They did try the changes you...
easier said than done. is it that so simple as to just go out and hire good management with offering profit sharing? Where do you actually find the good management people? When you think you are spending good money hiring good management, does it guarantee to turn out to be a success? It's not easy but you are absolutely right that if things are not working, make a change! They did try the changes you mentioned but they didn't work out. Bad luck. I think one weak point is their strength and focus on south america which is not where the money is to be frank.
At least $12B has been spent post-bankruptcy on stock buy backs of AA stock. Remember that Doug Parker was paid exclusively in stock. This was be a way to drive up stock price ( & effectively his salary).
Given that this $12B was effectively borrowed money (given their overall debt load), it's safe to say (assuming 5% cost of capital) that this has a net impact of $600M a year on AA's bottom line....
At least $12B has been spent post-bankruptcy on stock buy backs of AA stock. Remember that Doug Parker was paid exclusively in stock. This was be a way to drive up stock price ( & effectively his salary).
Given that this $12B was effectively borrowed money (given their overall debt load), it's safe to say (assuming 5% cost of capital) that this has a net impact of $600M a year on AA's bottom line. EVERY YEAR.
Some would say this should be illegal. It is not. It was all approved by the board of directors.
Should AA management be changed out wholesale? You tell me.
Why are you apparently rooting for American to be liquidated?
> Here’s an idea — how about paying American’s top executives purely in the form of profit sharing? They get a certain percentage of profits, and the compensation percentage increases the bigger the profits.
Stock options.
You've invented stock options.
(At least stock options in a world where companies aren't levering up to fund buybacks and pliant boards restrike options...)
I like where you are going with this.
Profit sharing is one idea. My concern with profit sharing as a sole form of compensation is that it may lead to executives only thinking for today and not as much about the company's future. Boeing may be an example.
Stock options is another alternative. What about a hybrid of a base salary with stock options that are placed into an account and not released...
I like where you are going with this.
Profit sharing is one idea. My concern with profit sharing as a sole form of compensation is that it may lead to executives only thinking for today and not as much about the company's future. Boeing may be an example.
Stock options is another alternative. What about a hybrid of a base salary with stock options that are placed into an account and not released to the executive until seven years after issue. This may influence an executive to plan for future profit and add to the stability of the company.
Having executives thinking long term and sustained profitability is good for the employees and the shareholders.
This. A thousand times for all major companies. Starting with Boeing.
In Isom’s defense every time a FA doesn’t do a PDB service, every time they spend the flight scrolling on their phones rather than providing good service that impacts the bottom line. Everything scowl, every grunt, every stink eye is money out the door.
This ain’t to say Isom also needs to get fired, he certainly does. But there is some degree of blame to go around.
AA flight attendants are living on a contract that EXPIRED in 2019. Since the contract EXPIRED, inflation has gone up over 20%. If you were to pay a contractor less than 80% of what they asked, what do you expect to get? Mgmt has been using the railway labor act to exploit its workers. You can’t be surprised when the product/service declines
Right. I wonder how many of these know it alls would work with out a raise in 5 years?
What is a good service if there is nothing to offer ?
Do you want a meal in coach ?
That’s a result of management’s decisions, not the flight attendants. Management’s pay needs reformulated to reasonable levels. Especially considering the company’s performance in regards to profits, customer satisfaction, and poor employee morale directly caused by management poor decision making
On Thursday, American Airlines reported a lower fourth-quarter profit of $19 million, or 3 cents per share, compared with $803 million, or $1.14 per share, a year earlier. -Reuters
Um why would the AA board and shareholders be content with this performance?
What evidence do you have they are “content”?
The stock’s *way* down over the last 5 years. That’s how shareholders express discontent, by selling.
No shareholder revolt yet.
A gen z with 3 years seniority as an FA weighing in on how tough life is really didn’t help their cause.
American’s lack of corporate leadership is unacceptable. Stockholders & Mutual funds should file a class action suit against them for failing to uphold their fiduciary responsibility to investors.
In what other profession do people with 3 years of experience have to live with 12 roommates just to survive? So much Gen Z hate, but all I see with this generation is folks who are getting a raw deal. This brand of capitalism isn't working for the people who are living in it.
Worthwhile context, the American Airlines flight attendants contract does not include profit sharing. They got higher wages a decade ago when this was put together in lieu of at-risk pay.
American added profit sharing voluntarily, as an add-on. The formula isn't as generous as Delta's, in addition to profits being lower.
The offer put on the table in early fall included matching Delta's pay, adding boarding pay, and adopting Delta's bonus formula. But profit...
Worthwhile context, the American Airlines flight attendants contract does not include profit sharing. They got higher wages a decade ago when this was put together in lieu of at-risk pay.
American added profit sharing voluntarily, as an add-on. The formula isn't as generous as Delta's, in addition to profits being lower.
The offer put on the table in early fall included matching Delta's pay, adding boarding pay, and adopting Delta's bonus formula. But profit sharing will be lower as long as profits are...
I'd note, since you suggest paying executives only a percentage of profit, when Doug Parker was CEO he was paid entirely in stock.
The offer is still a significant pay cut once accounting for inflation. Since the contract expired, inflation has increased over 20%. An 11% pay raise is still a major pay cut once you do the simple math (20-11=9% pay cut). Add in the fact that American is doing more inefficient, short flying with lots of unpaid sit time instead of long haul international, the flight attendants are taking a major pay cut. All of this,...
The offer is still a significant pay cut once accounting for inflation. Since the contract expired, inflation has increased over 20%. An 11% pay raise is still a major pay cut once you do the simple math (20-11=9% pay cut). Add in the fact that American is doing more inefficient, short flying with lots of unpaid sit time instead of long haul international, the flight attendants are taking a major pay cut. All of this, despite being the backbone and face of the airline. If American wants to be a competitive leader, it’s going to have to start paying its flight attendants like one. As the saying goes “nothing changes if nothing changes”
Delta also doesn't pay profit sharing to their wholly own subsidiaries. American does. Even using the new AA profit sharing formula in new CBA's, which is in line with Delta, and having equal profit to Delta, American employees will always receive a smaller amount relative to Delta simply because Delta is not generous with who they pay profit sharing too. Delta has always snubbed its employees who don't work for the mainline brand
Other work groups ARE getting 10%. So your logic is not legit.
You should make sure facts are correct before commenting. 1. Other workgroups haven’t been working under a contract that expired back in 2019. 2. Pilots got raises of 40%+ and isom just gave himself a $1.5 million bonus for the company’s “performance”. So yes, there is plenty of money to give the flight attendants a fair contract