Airlines are notorious for blaming any sort of operational issues on weather, in order to limit their liability. Along those lines, I’d like to share a situation we’re currently dealing with, as I’m curious to hear what OMAAT readers think…
In this post:
Pursuing government mandated compensation from American
A few weeks ago, I wrote about a rough American Airlines trip that Ford had to Canada:
- His outbound flight was canceled hours before departure, with no good alternatives, so he had to book a more expensive ticket on Air Canada in order to get there in time for his commitment
- His return flight was delayed, causing him to misconnect, and then he eventually had to spend the night in Philadelphia, arriving home a day late
The good news is that the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) has published guidelines whereby airlines have to provide compensation when delays fall within certain categories that are considered to be within a carrier’s control.
So we’ve been trying to pursue this with American for a couple of reasons:
- Ford faced some legitimate out-of-pocket expenses as a result of American’s lack of operational reliability, including having to book a new flight, plus having to spend a night in a hotel
- I try to learn as much about how airline consumer protections work as I can, so this is great firsthand experience
However, as I previously wrote about, American seems to be systematically trying to deny compensation. When Ford wrote in requesting the government mandated compensation, the airline simply responded by offering some AAdvantage bonus miles, not even acknowledging what he was seeking.
Well, there’s an interesting update on that front…
American customer relations blames delays on weather
Ford finally received a thoughtful and detailed response from American customer relations, that addresses his complaint… sort of. However, it tries to deny his claim, suggesting that both flights had operational issues due to weather. Here’s the email he received:
On behalf of American Airlines, thank you for contacting Customer Relations. I am very sorry for the delayed response. We are currently experiencing a higher-than-normal incoming volume and our reply time is longer than we’d prefer. We appreciate the opportunity to address your claim for compensation based on Canadian Air Passenger Protection Regulations.
We owe you an apology for the confusion we likely caused with our recent response. We are sorry that we did not address your concerns directly.
We regret your flight from Miami on June 20, 2023, was cancelled, and your flight from Montreal on June 24, 2023, was delayed. Please accept our apology for the inconvenience and impact on your travel plans this irregularity caused. It is never our intent to create difficulties for you, or any of our passengers, and appreciate that this disruption was a frustrating experience.
As you have correctly identified, Air Passenger Protection Regulations have established common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of cancellations or long delays of flights. Under this regulation, in the event of a flight cancellation or delay, passengers are entitled to established levels of compensation. However, this regulation does not apply when a flight is cancelled or delayed for less than 3-hours or when a flight is cancelled or delayed due to safety, weather, or Air Traffic Control issues. Since flight AA378 was cancelled due to a weather situation, and flight AA5100 was delayed because of a weather situation, American Airlines is not required to provide the compensation you have referred to.
However, liability for international travel is governed by and limited under the Montreal Convention. You can find more information via aa.com from the link included in our Conditions of Carriage and incorporated by reference. The Convention sets liability limits for recovery on actual damages incurred, including delay in carriage of passengers and bags, and damaged or lost baggage. Punitive, exemplary or any other non-compensatory damages shall not be recoverable. We would be happy to consider your claim for out-of-pocket reimbursement, and request that receipts and supporting documents be sent to us for review.
Is customer relations lying, or am I wrong?
As you can see, the representative makes an interesting claim. She states that both flights aren’t eligible for compensation, because both operational issues were due to weather. Let’s just use the return flight as an example. ExpertFlyer has a useful flight status feature that shows the internal notes from airlines during operational disruptions.
The agent claims that AA5100 was delayed due to weather. According to American’s own notes, the reason for the operational disruption was “delay due to crew availability.” Now, someone please correct me if I’m wrong, because I’m starting to second guess myself. Surely an American representative addressing government mandated compensation wouldn’t outright lie to me in writing, right?
What am I missing?
- Is American claiming that its own notes aren’t accurate?
- Can a delay due to crew availability be categorized as being due to weather under government regulations?
I totally get that at some point there may have been weather somewhere, causing crews to be displaced. I mean, most operational airline issues start with something that at some point wasn’t within the carrier’s control. But at the end of the day, airlines choosing to over schedule without sufficient reserve crews is something very much within a carrier’s control.
Before we respond, I want to make sure we get this right, and that I’m not off base. We’re not looking for anything we’re not entitled to under the law. We’re not looking for American to bend the rules, but rather we’re looking for the airline to follow the rules. For that matter, Ford has credit card insurance that would at least cover the hotel in the event American is correct.
Bottom line
I’m questioning my mental sanity here, since I’ve always assumed that if a flight is delayed due to lack of available crew, then that’s something that’s within the carrier’s control. Meanwhile American is claiming that a flight was delayed due to weather, when the carrier’s own notes make it clear that a delay was due to lack of available crew.
What am I missing here?
On 9/8, my Southwest flight was canceled and delayed to the following day due to a "weather issue", but there were no storms, just light rain which eventually stopped. There were other flights taking off during the time of my flight. We also heard from the PA that another flight that was supposed to be 'canceled' was no longer canceled because they FOUND a pilot. I rebooked my flight to a United Airlines flight the...
On 9/8, my Southwest flight was canceled and delayed to the following day due to a "weather issue", but there were no storms, just light rain which eventually stopped. There were other flights taking off during the time of my flight. We also heard from the PA that another flight that was supposed to be 'canceled' was no longer canceled because they FOUND a pilot. I rebooked my flight to a United Airlines flight the same night and made it home. I made a claim for SW to reimburse me for the UA flight, but was declined due to "weather"
Weather days should be determined by air traffic controllers and not the airlines.
How can I see the reason of a delay on Expeerflyer? Do I need to have a Premium account? Thank you
The airline is NOT responsible for the compensation you seek.
Airline flight and crew schedules are very complicated and weather plays havoc on them. Airlines last resort is to cancel a flight as it impacts the flight schedules and crew pairings through the airlines system. Flights are often cancelled due lack of crews as they aren't in the city they were supposed to be in due to a flight delay or cancellation. No airline...
The airline is NOT responsible for the compensation you seek.
Airline flight and crew schedules are very complicated and weather plays havoc on them. Airlines last resort is to cancel a flight as it impacts the flight schedules and crew pairings through the airlines system. Flights are often cancelled due lack of crews as they aren't in the city they were supposed to be in due to a flight delay or cancellation. No airline has spare crews just sitting around at cities for a possible delay or cancellations. Each crew member makes hundreds of thousands of dollars so airlines don't have the luxury of them just sitting around.
Based on your particular situation YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO EXPENSE REIMBURSEMENT PER CURRENT FAA LAWS. YOUR FLIGHTS WERE CANCELLED DUE WEATHER RELATED CREW ISSUES. AIRLINES DON'T LIE ABOUT SITUATIONS LIKE THIS. I KNOW AS I WORKED FOR THIS AIRLINE FOR 41 YEARS AND IN MIDDLE MANAGEMENT POSITION AT MULTIPLE AIRPORTS IN AMERICAN AIRLINES SYSTEM. I DEALT WITH ISSUES LIKE YIURS ON A DAILY BASIS AND BELIEVE ME NO COMPENSATION IS WARRANTED!!!!!
You sound like a sad sorry little man. Your airline is garbage, and the federal government should have let it die.
I worked for them for 37 years and retired. They do this all the time, the first notes were delay maintenance, we would check it again and it would say weather. As a supervisor we rely on this to handle customers, it is a total lie to save money!
I now work for Delta.
I got caught up in that fiasco in NYC area at the end of June. Flight on a Tuesday from EWR to MIA cancelled and I was expected to stay until Friday at a hotel on my dime. Reason given: “weather”. Looked at the weather up and down the East coast, and it was nothing out of the ordinary. If you heard Scott Kirby that night, he was blaming the ATC for not having enough...
I got caught up in that fiasco in NYC area at the end of June. Flight on a Tuesday from EWR to MIA cancelled and I was expected to stay until Friday at a hotel on my dime. Reason given: “weather”. Looked at the weather up and down the East coast, and it was nothing out of the ordinary. If you heard Scott Kirby that night, he was blaming the ATC for not having enough controllers. It was actually sunny when they cancelled my flight, although it did rain a little later. Is AA at fault for the flight cancellation (one of many for a number of days)? Is ATC at fault for not having enough controllers. I don’t know, but I will tell you that the situation is not good and getting worse. I think everyone has some blame, but the majority goes to ATC for not staffing more and very poor leadership. I am with Scott Kirby on this one. AA didn’t want to put me up in a hotel because of a situation that is out of their control. So I got screwed.
Airlines have been doing this for years. If weather had anything to do with any of the crew or equipment in the last week, it got blamed on the weather. The difference is that there’s so little slack in the system that a disruption last week keeps reverberating longer than it used to. And that’s the fault of the airlines
Seems like a small claims adventure would be a fun blog topic as well. ;-)
My parents' flight from Athens to Munich with Air China was once delayed due to weather, at least that's what the airline claimed. Indeed, the airport webcams showed some serious fog.
But: other airlines were able to fly! So it turned out (in court) that the pilots just did not have the rating for such bad weather conditions, and it was ruled that the airline had to pay compensation.
I had a similar issue. My AA flight Chicago to NYC was cancelled last month 1 hr before boarding and AA refused to rebook me on another AA flight or another carrier. I had to buy a new ticket on another airline. I did complain to CS but got a form letter saying that because it as a weather issue, they don't have to do anything. I couldn't find the official reason for the cancellation...
I had a similar issue. My AA flight Chicago to NYC was cancelled last month 1 hr before boarding and AA refused to rebook me on another AA flight or another carrier. I had to buy a new ticket on another airline. I did complain to CS but got a form letter saying that because it as a weather issue, they don't have to do anything. I couldn't find the official reason for the cancellation anywhere. All the other flights that day CHI-NYC were running as usual. I did file a DOT complaint bc at first they refused to refund the ticket, and then they took 3 weeks to process the refund. Any tips on how to access the official reason for a cancellation?
The standard reply for most airlines when you ask for the compensation youre entitled to is weather or ATC as they hope that will put ppl off.
I once had a flight from Honolulu to LAX cancel because of snow! Huh? Snow in HNL? Nope. Snow in LAX? Nope.
But the inbound was coming from Newark and they were having a snow blizzard. As someone else has said, commercial aviation, flights fall like dominoes. It may not be the cause of the flight, and question but downline. It may be a legitimate excuse.
I dont think they can blame things like that. Its the airlines responsibility to be able to bring in a replacement plane.
Crew availability can be due to the crew operating that flight was in the air holding or diverted due to weather
This is exactly the experience I had with AA , John. An incoming crew member on a flight coming into PHL was delayed somewhere by weather. The delay was long enough that the rest of the crew timed-out and couldn't fly when the tardy member arrived. It was the last flight of the day and the passengers had to wait for flights the next day. AA denied hotel accomodations as it was a "weather delay".
This is exactly the experience I had with AA , John. An incoming crew member on a flight coming into PHL was delayed somewhere by weather. The delay was long enough that the rest of the crew timed-out and couldn't fly when the tardy member arrived. It was the last flight of the day and the passengers had to wait for flights the next day. AA denied hotel accomodations as it was a "weather delay".
On another occasion, also AA out of PHL, the plane had a mechanical that took ~two hours to fix. When it was ready to go, there was weather (actual weather) over PHL. Again it was the last flight of the day and was ultimately cancelled. I suspect the crew was going to time out by the time the weather was going to pass. AA called it a weather related cancellation, not a mechanical.
Multiple contributing factors to each cancellation, some under AA's control some not. Not surprisingly, a business allowed to make the attribution favors itself.
Weather delay becomes crew delay. They say. I supposed I get that. Hard to figure out the upline flight number and if the crew came in on that.
I'm confused about the order of the flights. The 24 June PHL-YUL was delayed by 32 minutes. So what? What vwas the MIA-PHL delay that caused the misconnect? Is the PHL-YUL the alternate flight that he had to take the next day? I understood he misconnecred in PHL and had to overnight.
AA 100% lies about delays. We had a crew member in Miami last summer tell us that they didn’t have enough crew to fly and so the flight was cancelled. We also received an email saying it was due to weather. Meanwhile flights all around us were on time from other airlines.
They flat out lied to my face about this last year at JFK. Although, as you point out, their problems did begin with weather. I was flying to DCA, and the plane was coming from the Midwest, Cleveland or Indianapolis, I think. That flight got delayed originally because of weather, but the delay lasted much longer, to the point that the NEXT flight from there to JFK took off before the one I was waiting...
They flat out lied to my face about this last year at JFK. Although, as you point out, their problems did begin with weather. I was flying to DCA, and the plane was coming from the Midwest, Cleveland or Indianapolis, I think. That flight got delayed originally because of weather, but the delay lasted much longer, to the point that the NEXT flight from there to JFK took off before the one I was waiting on.
My flight to DCA kept getting further and further delayed, it was 3 hours at one point. And then once the flight took off to come to JFK, they actually lessened my delay a bit and moved our departure time up slightly. And then 15 minutes after that, they canceled the flight. There were no more flights to DC that night (it was 9pm at this point) and they told me I was on my own.
They told me over and over again that it was an ATC issue, and therefore not their fault, but there were no other issues with flights into or out of JFK or DCA, only that one. So I’m guessing it was ATC on the departing aircraft that I was waiting on, if it was ATC at all. They offered me nothing at all, but I did see there was a flight to Baltimore and managed to get on it at the last minute, but still had to to get from BWI to DCA to pick up my car at midnight when the only option is Uber or taxi.
Last month I was the AA JFK-DOH flight which cancelled due to rolling delays (mechanical) which finally caused the crew to become 'illegal'. I was only reimbursed my actual expenses for a hotel & Uber. Not even any miles.
My experience is that AA sometimes will proactively give miles but I think that may be a case in which a CK/maybe an EXP complains and AA proactively credits miles for the delay.
I am impressed you got the AA notes - would love an article on how to get that info for any future dealings with lying Airlines. I just dealt with similar situation on Frontier (for my son - I would never book them myself). And I was able to prove they were lying because I immediately went on the FAA site that shows where actual weather delays were happening. The site showed MIA had traffic...
I am impressed you got the AA notes - would love an article on how to get that info for any future dealings with lying Airlines. I just dealt with similar situation on Frontier (for my son - I would never book them myself). And I was able to prove they were lying because I immediately went on the FAA site that shows where actual weather delays were happening. The site showed MIA had traffic issues. NOT WEATHER. I recounted the story to them WITH the screen shots and they eventually sent compensation. If you can believe it. First delay SEVERAL HOURS was due to a tire issue. They deplaned them and then put them back on obv to avoid water/food regulation. Then they finally cancelled the flight. I knew it was bc the crew had timed out and/or the lost the slot due to the delay and MIA traffic difficulties. But they blamed weather, natch. Ordinarily I would let it go but it was my son and other college friends and they didn't get them back until THREE DAYS later (missing classes) AND instead of flying them to BOSTON they only flew them to Providence and told them to take public transport to Boston!!!!??!! So at least we got the transportation costs to Boston and UBER to/from airport due to delay. They only would cover up to $150 though. At least we got that. I was just cranky that they lied so that is why I pursued it. I am impressed you got the AA notes.
I used to work in irregular operations, and investigate and put an authorization flights for compensation. We go dig deep into the delays the aircraft had during the day , or day prior. If crews get out of place to work a flight , or they are suddenly delay due to weather , and a flight needs to be delayed they following day in the morning to meet minimum crew rest ( FAR), then no. Compensation would not apply .
So basically your job is to deny claims.
Your salary is paid from the compensation your employer deprived its customer.
If you're looking at a day prior, why not look at a few years prior. I'm sure every single aircraft have been through a weather delay. That way, you don't even need to investigate and outright deny.
Please don't take it personal, it also works on the customer benefits in other occasions : if a flight is delayed due to crew or mechanical for 30 minutes per say, and then weather comes and further delays the flight. Compensation for customers apply, because the original delay was controllable, and as a result, a major delay Happened due to weather AFTER.
Customer service managers Can also override the irregular operations Agent decision on...
Please don't take it personal, it also works on the customer benefits in other occasions : if a flight is delayed due to crew or mechanical for 30 minutes per say, and then weather comes and further delays the flight. Compensation for customers apply, because the original delay was controllable, and as a result, a major delay Happened due to weather AFTER.
Customer service managers Can also override the irregular operations Agent decision on individual basis, but they have to document very well the reason, it can be due to good customer service due to various reasons such babies, elderly, customer had precious disruptions on their journey etc.
Hey don't take it the wrong way, it's nothing personal at all. The villain here is the greedy airline. You are just doing your job. It's the shameless move to even have this job requirement.
It's not like insurance where they still need to filter out fraudulent claims. There is no reason for any airline to defraud itself for the reason of delay.
While I'm sure you there are some cases that would benefit...
Hey don't take it the wrong way, it's nothing personal at all. The villain here is the greedy airline. You are just doing your job. It's the shameless move to even have this job requirement.
It's not like insurance where they still need to filter out fraudulent claims. There is no reason for any airline to defraud itself for the reason of delay.
While I'm sure you there are some cases that would benefit the customer, but mostly the default would (secretly) be denying unless caught with your pants on fire.
What we need is a total government take over of all airlines. We have to bail them out all the time anyways. Delays and cancellations will be a thing of the past when airlines are operated by government
"Delays and cancellations will be a thing of the past when airlines are operated by government"
I'm positive Amtrak or even USPS proves otherwise.
Having been a civil servant, this is a huge mistake. The gov't is the pinnacle of inefficiency. What we DO need, is punitive measure taken against airlines when they fuck up. Heavy fine that are immediately enforced, and fines for not responding to or delaying payments to customers. Essentially a US version (and stricter than) EU 261.
That is the last thing we need. We just need to stop the government from bailing out the Airlines.
Had AA cancel my flight at 4:00 p.m for a flight leaving 10:00 a.m. claiming weather. There was almost no bad weather across the U.S. and certainly not between BOS and DFW. Spent the entire next day in the Adm club waiting for the next available seat.
Leaves me with no guilt doing hidden city.
To play devil's advocate, bad weather is not just rain and snow. Extreme heat that prevents planes from taking off in Phoenix and Las Vegas could cause weather delays
Keep fighting it and document all of AA lies.
I really find it funny how AA claims that their HEAT system prevents weather cancellations. The only possible defense AA has at this point would be if the flight was an Eagle flight operated by either Skywest or Republic
Reminds me years ago AA canceled my flight to Orlando within 24 hours, citing weather issue. I had no problem finding United going there same day, but ended up shelling 1.5K extra. Shady to say the least. I do not trust them.
Ok
I had a case where initially we were delayed by weather by a couple hours. Then we were cleared to take off but the crew timed out while waiting for take off and we went back to the gate to wait for new crew, which took a couple more hours. In denying compensation for food, AA said it was due to ATC delay. Seems they just make stuff up.
As someone with lots of experience in airline ops but not these compensation regulations, here are my thoughts. For delays - there are 2 sets of codes/reasons. What you have from ExpertFlyer is the first set of codes, a.k.a FLIFO (flight information)/ETD (estimated departure times). These entries (with the corresponding code - here CRA - that passengers don't see) are what feed airlines' flight status websites, apps, monitors, etc., and are also what is most...
As someone with lots of experience in airline ops but not these compensation regulations, here are my thoughts. For delays - there are 2 sets of codes/reasons. What you have from ExpertFlyer is the first set of codes, a.k.a FLIFO (flight information)/ETD (estimated departure times). These entries (with the corresponding code - here CRA - that passengers don't see) are what feed airlines' flight status websites, apps, monitors, etc., and are also what is most easily visible to gate agents. These are just estimated times and reasons, and not "official". The "official" code(s), with a slightly different set of reasons, are made after departure, accounting for every minute of actually-observed departure delay. Theoretically, they should match. However, the "official" code is what is used for calculating on-time performance. When airlines talk about "controllable" delay & cancels, this is the code that counts. As such, especially with all of the public and political pressure on airlines, there is a lot of pressure from senior executives to "control the controllable". There are legitimate times when these 2 codes can differ, i.e. if there is lightning and the ramp is closed. There may be an ETD due to late bag loading (since ETD codes are more play-by-play), but an after-the-fact official code due to weather. I can't think of any ops person who wants to deny you compensation (many don't know there is compensation), but it's all in the pressure for numbers. I'd also mention that (almost) all of these entries are done manually, on a leg-level, and sometimes by different people. So, even though the flight from PHL-YUL does have a crew ETD, it looks like one one never posted for YUL-PHL (that's another story). And, who knows what the "official" codes are for each flight.
Cancellations are a bit more straightforward as there's only one code per flight leg, but the idea is similar. As far as I know, there's no governmental regulation on what can be called weather, so again, it's a manual process. Do you see the cancellation in ExpertFlyer? That FLIFO entry should look similar, if it's there.
As far as compensation - I'd reply to the latest response (don't submit a new form), mentioning all of the times you were told the delay reason by agents, pilots, etc. and showing your ExpertFlyer screenshot as "proof". It might not work, but you should absolutely keep trying using the evidence you do have. Of course, they have every incentive to try and avoid paying, so it might take some effort. Also, it gives you a leg up on a governmental complaint.
Note that they did not deny your request for reimbursement of out-of-pocket-expenses, so I would still send in those receipts as their correspondence suggests that they will consider those for reimbursement.
Agree with this approach; seems to be overlooked?
Is that feature of FlightAware a paid feature? I can't figure out how you saw that.
You're not wrong, and you're not confused.
American is deliberately abusing the excuse of "weather" to avoid paying for the delays their operations have caused. They know you can't easily prove this, and they know they can easily point to vague "weather" as an excuse, so it's the perfect con for them.
Only way to fix it is for Congress to amend existing laws to force airlines to document weather delays in a quantifiable,...
You're not wrong, and you're not confused.
American is deliberately abusing the excuse of "weather" to avoid paying for the delays their operations have caused. They know you can't easily prove this, and they know they can easily point to vague "weather" as an excuse, so it's the perfect con for them.
Only way to fix it is for Congress to amend existing laws to force airlines to document weather delays in a quantifiable, verifiable way that people can track or dispute. They need to be forced to document, in writing, that they delayed or cancelled a flight because of a specific weather situation impacting a specific flight.
Was this flight actually affected by Canadian wildfires, storms, or a Sharknado? We will never know. But until we change the laws and nail them to the wall on this issue, they will continue abusing it to scam their own customers.
This analysis is dead-on.
The issue is that if weather can be attributed along the way then the airlines will blame weather. For example, your flight gets delayed an hour due to maintenance, the problem gets fixed but then storms roll in and the airport closes. If you misconnect the airline will blame weather and force you to pay for your own hotel and meals. Even though had you left on time you would not have misconnected. I don't see airlines changing this behavior.
Let it go as far as getting AA to do the right thing. You have a better chance of getting action from Secretary Buttigieg.
I think the proper procedure is this. Ford replies to AA that the delay was not weather related, that he is attaching evidence it was personnel related, and that the Montreal Convention does not offer the weather exception for any reason other than a hold on the flight in question (i.e. not upline weather delays).
I don't know if that last point is true but put the burden on AA to prove it otherwise.
If...
I think the proper procedure is this. Ford replies to AA that the delay was not weather related, that he is attaching evidence it was personnel related, and that the Montreal Convention does not offer the weather exception for any reason other than a hold on the flight in question (i.e. not upline weather delays).
I don't know if that last point is true but put the burden on AA to prove it otherwise.
If he follows these steps and still believes he was wronged, he should speak to an attorney who makes a living out of class action lawsuits. AA won't care about small claims court but federal court class actions will grab their attention. Of course, this presumes the conditions of carriage do not also include a waiver of right to class action lawsuits
What you are missing is simple: that US airlines, unlike any other business, don't have consequences for lying. Something they do, in copious amount.
Simply file in Small Calms Vourt and they will fold immediately since they know that they would have to provide evidence to the Judge and they don't have any.
Can you file suit in American state small claims court invoking Canadian federal law as the basis for your claim?
The best way is to document other flights which operated normally at both ends of each sector. And if you use flights from other airlines, it infuriates them because they have less insight and cannot twist the truth as they do about their own flights. A paying subscription to Flightaware helps as the free version has a limited hindsight.
Also, be prepared to go to Small Claims Court.
Typical American response. Compensation. Sue.
You have to prove losses. 99% can’t. So you try another angle: emotional blackmail
What? @Ford has specific quantifiable losses. And what about @Pierre's response suggests emotional blackmail?
Did you actually read? No. I said 99%. I didn’t specifically mention those two. Most Americans make highly exaggerated claims. Weather is highly complex and just because the sun was shining when you checked, doesn’t mean there were issues en route and wouldn’t be able to read a METARS report. Your average traveller, knows very little about the complexities of operating an airline. They believe it’s just like getting in a car and driving
An...
Did you actually read? No. I said 99%. I didn’t specifically mention those two. Most Americans make highly exaggerated claims. Weather is highly complex and just because the sun was shining when you checked, doesn’t mean there were issues en route and wouldn’t be able to read a METARS report. Your average traveller, knows very little about the complexities of operating an airline. They believe it’s just like getting in a car and driving
An aircraft may for example, be scheduled one day to operate
JFK BNA ORD DFW AUS DFW IAH ORD MIA
Say ORD DFW has a delay, then it has a knock on affect. It may play catch up however if it’s significantly disrupted the final sector ORD MIA is delayed. Most passengers assume that aircraft was just waiting in Chicago.
The airline may be able to swap
Upstream delays due to weather ARE NEVER THE PAX RESPONSIBILITY. Ever. However an airline *chooses* to schedule its crews and other flights is none of my concern. My compensation should only be based on the literal factors affecting my specific flight. Period.
And if there are ANY controllable delays, regardless of the presence of an uncontrollable one, airlines should pay.
-G
@Icarus I don't think I understand what your proposed alternative would be?
The short answer to your question: yes, AA lies about delay reasons, citing "weather" as a reason to deny compensation of any sort.
Christmas this year, I boarded a 787 at ORD to fly to DFW. We boarded on-time and they closed the doors on-time. Then, after about 10 minutes, passengers all got a cancellation notice from AA on our phones.
A few minutes of confusion ensued, until a very angry captain got on...
The short answer to your question: yes, AA lies about delay reasons, citing "weather" as a reason to deny compensation of any sort.
Christmas this year, I boarded a 787 at ORD to fly to DFW. We boarded on-time and they closed the doors on-time. Then, after about 10 minutes, passengers all got a cancellation notice from AA on our phones.
A few minutes of confusion ensued, until a very angry captain got on the PA to announce the delay was due to crew timeout issues (along with some comments about AA's operations). Flight attendants then apologized for the "crew delay" as we exited the plane, and a gate agent then noted on the PA that the subsequent delay of four hours (!) was due to having to "find new crew."
I wrote to AA Customer Relations, since I missed a DFW connection and had to rebook, etc. I was told the official delay reason was "weather" and that I was not entitled to compensation of any sort.
So, yeah: multiple AA staff in multiple roles all publicly announced crew resourcing as the delay for a flight that had boarded and was ready to push back from the gate.
But AA's 'official' reason was "weather."
I suspect, as you are saying, this is systemic and a deliberate scheme.
Yes as airlines are intentionally disrupting their customers at great cost on each side. God forbid you think they are in the business of transporting people safely and in time. If you’re American you may not understand sarcasm.
The vast majority of people outside the industry have absolutely no idea about the complexity of operating an airline.
Wow @Icarus, what is your problem? @BRMM didn't say the disruption was intentional. He said they lied. Many of us actually do understand the complexity of the business. I've got and advanced degree in optimization (you know, the process they use in their scheduling) and have consulted with airlines and other logistics companies. The problem across the industry right now is that they are scheduling beyond their operational capacity AND they're not taking responsibility for...
Wow @Icarus, what is your problem? @BRMM didn't say the disruption was intentional. He said they lied. Many of us actually do understand the complexity of the business. I've got and advanced degree in optimization (you know, the process they use in their scheduling) and have consulted with airlines and other logistics companies. The problem across the industry right now is that they are scheduling beyond their operational capacity AND they're not taking responsibility for the resulting self-inflicted wounds.
@Icarus this is a very confusing take. Who said they are "intentionally disrupting their customers"? That seems like a red herring. Nobody on either side *wants* the disruptions. What they're doing, of course, is making irresponsible scheduling wagers, and then lying to customers when those wagers don't pan out the way they had (naively) hoped.
@Icarus You already stated "people have no idea about the complexity of operating an airline" several times in this Ben's post.
Yes, I know it is a complex industry, and I believe most of the readers of this blog already know about it to certain degree.
The point of this post (and the comments section) is to ask for readers' opinion and any recourse or if there is any way to ask for...
@Icarus You already stated "people have no idea about the complexity of operating an airline" several times in this Ben's post.
Yes, I know it is a complex industry, and I believe most of the readers of this blog already know about it to certain degree.
The point of this post (and the comments section) is to ask for readers' opinion and any recourse or if there is any way to ask for compensation from the airline.
I don't like to assume, but judging from your responses and explanation about weather, so whenever airline said the delay is weather-related, we should just shrug it off, accept the explanation, and move on?
Based on several posts and comments from this blog or other travel bloggers out there, airlines love to use _weather_ excuse/reason to avoid paying compensation, even sometimes it is not true like @BRMM said.
In Ford’s situation, at this point, I’d probably abandon the effort, save the letter from AA and write it off as a business expense on my taxes. Seems like a long shot.
Ironically, the trip delay insurance included with the Chase Sapphire Reserve does NOT cover any delays from crew issues alone, but does cover weather or equipment failure (and skyjacking). I'm trying to get them to cover my hotel and replacement ticket after an AA cancellation earlier this week -- just after terrible east coast weather -- but the AA official reason is PREVIOUS CREW RELATED, so I'm expecting it will be denied.
Ben, compensation is never actually paid under Canadian rules, due to the way they are (intentionally) written. If crew was delayed by weather on one flight, then any subsequent delays on other flights can also be attributed to weather, so no compensation due. And in any case, airlines don't pay out for delays due to crew availability, they argue crew availability is a safety issue because it's unsafe to operate a flight without proper crew,...
Ben, compensation is never actually paid under Canadian rules, due to the way they are (intentionally) written. If crew was delayed by weather on one flight, then any subsequent delays on other flights can also be attributed to weather, so no compensation due. And in any case, airlines don't pay out for delays due to crew availability, they argue crew availability is a safety issue because it's unsafe to operate a flight without proper crew, so no compensation is due.
I don't know why you keep repeating that Canadian rules are robust. They are not, they are nothing like in EU, airlines never pay, and that's intentional.
Adding my own experience with AA on July 9, 2023 in JFK. They've delayed our flight several times and guess what, due to weather. Then finally we actually got into plane around 6PM of the 2.59PM flight (moved from gate to gate as well) and were waiting for the take off. At first, we were told that the pilots have already reached their timeout period and therefore could no longer fly. So they got another...
Adding my own experience with AA on July 9, 2023 in JFK. They've delayed our flight several times and guess what, due to weather. Then finally we actually got into plane around 6PM of the 2.59PM flight (moved from gate to gate as well) and were waiting for the take off. At first, we were told that the pilots have already reached their timeout period and therefore could no longer fly. So they got another AA pilot willing to fly who happened to be a passenger as well. We were told they are working on the paperwork so a bit more wait and finally at 7PM they told us the flight is cancelled so we have to disembark the plan. Me and 2 other passengers just decided to take Uber to DC so we split the $1,300 cost for the Uber driver who agreed to drive us. Long story short, I contacted AA the next day and while the rep was "sympathetic" she could not do anything because it was "weather related." I called Chase Reserve and filed a claim and they, too, said can't do anything about it since the airline said it was weather related. So much for cancellation and delay coverage. I guess the only way of getting compensation from the airline or credit card coverage is on delayed or lost baggage. Other than that, it's all weather related.
Then all weather delays are caused by one butterfly flapping its wings.
My experience is that AA pushes the weather excuse as much as possible.
They should consider weather as bad weather preventing departure or arrival at the origin of the flight, the destination, or the origin of the previous flight, and nothing else.
Deny. Deny. Deny.
That's their entire playbook!
Unless you want to give the airlines a blanket pretext to deny almost all claims, you can't use upstream weather for crew shortages. Doing so would put the airline in complete control because there is no way to prove/disprove this without turning over a record of every crew assignment. That can't and shouldn't happen. Plus, what kind of butterfly effect are we allowing here? How far do they get to stretch this? Rain caused an...
Unless you want to give the airlines a blanket pretext to deny almost all claims, you can't use upstream weather for crew shortages. Doing so would put the airline in complete control because there is no way to prove/disprove this without turning over a record of every crew assignment. That can't and shouldn't happen. Plus, what kind of butterfly effect are we allowing here? How far do they get to stretch this? Rain caused an interstate pileup in St. Louis, which caused a crew member to miss a flight. After two jumps, that crew member was due to be the 3rd flight attendant in my flight from JFK. I'm stranded. Weather related. That's extreme, but would you put it past American Airlines? Not me.
Ben: This area isn't my specialty, but here's a take on the situation, based on many of the great comments you've gotten. First, as many have said, if the crew is displaced by weather then, sure, they owe you zippo. But, second, as someone else pointed out, at some point the causal connection between upstream weather and Ford's cancellation become too attenuated. THAT is the point to argue. Trust me on this, truly. An expert...
Ben: This area isn't my specialty, but here's a take on the situation, based on many of the great comments you've gotten. First, as many have said, if the crew is displaced by weather then, sure, they owe you zippo. But, second, as someone else pointed out, at some point the causal connection between upstream weather and Ford's cancellation become too attenuated. THAT is the point to argue. Trust me on this, truly. An expert in the area should be able to give you a decent take on the "attenuation" issue (this happens a lot!) but that is surely the push point. Good luck.
I would say a cancellation reason may not match the latest delay reason based on what the root cause of the delay is prior to the cancelation. Did weather/ATC cause a crew to timeout or be displaced? Or is it the other way around? A lack of crew caused the flight to be delayed putting it in a timeframe to be affected by weather/ATC which wouldn't have happened if the flight operated on time. I...
I would say a cancellation reason may not match the latest delay reason based on what the root cause of the delay is prior to the cancelation. Did weather/ATC cause a crew to timeout or be displaced? Or is it the other way around? A lack of crew caused the flight to be delayed putting it in a timeframe to be affected by weather/ATC which wouldn't have happened if the flight operated on time. I would argue if a flight is cancelled, it should be due to the root cause as this would be a black and white rule and give a level of consistency.
These protections are a joke. They have an easy way out to blame anything but themselves. My correspondance with Air Canada a few months ago:
------------
Air Canada airplanes are maintained in accordance with the required maintenance program but not all malfunctions, such as this one, can be foreseen or prevented through regular maintenance. The technical fault for your flight was unexpected and all reasonable measures were taken to avoid the flight disruption.
In...
These protections are a joke. They have an easy way out to blame anything but themselves. My correspondance with Air Canada a few months ago:
------------
Air Canada airplanes are maintained in accordance with the required maintenance program but not all malfunctions, such as this one, can be foreseen or prevented through regular maintenance. The technical fault for your flight was unexpected and all reasonable measures were taken to avoid the flight disruption.
In accordance with the Air Passenger Protection Regulations, compensation does not apply under these circumstances. Unexpected airplane malfunctions may compromise safety and flight disruptions caused by unexpected aircraft malfunctions would be within a carrier’s control, but required for safety.
We know that flight disruptions can create stress and inconvenience, we are sincerely sorry we were not able to get you to your destination at the arrival time originally planned. As a goodwill gesture, I am pleased to provide you with a $300.00 CAD Air Canada eCoupon. Please find details of this offer below.
Once again, please accept our sincere apologies for the flight disruption you experienced, and we hope to welcome you aboard again in your future travels.
---------
Again, if a plane malfunctions leading to a delay of greater than 10 hours, who is to blame? Also, it was interesting that this particular flight PHL to YYZ was getting delayed/cancelled the whole week prior to this incident.
I had a similar issue with Delta, thankfully my credit card completely covered the out of pocket costs. They also claimed weather. There's always going to be weather somewhere, they should only be allowed to claim weather in extreme cases like a hurricane or snowstorm.
They seem to be fine with paying someone spending time, on multiple occasions, responding to and denying a claim than just taking care of it.
That reeks of contempt for their customers.
At a basic level, this (https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/types-and-categories-flight-disruption-a-guide) specifically addresses staff issues, and specifically allows for the idea that weather-related delays may cause a crew shortage outside the airlines control (thus, ineligible for compensation, even though staffing is otherwise within airline control). More broadly, it is widely understood that the regulations were written to allow airlines maximum leniency while pretending to the public that the government was "doing something." If you feel a claim of weather is...
At a basic level, this (https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/types-and-categories-flight-disruption-a-guide) specifically addresses staff issues, and specifically allows for the idea that weather-related delays may cause a crew shortage outside the airlines control (thus, ineligible for compensation, even though staffing is otherwise within airline control). More broadly, it is widely understood that the regulations were written to allow airlines maximum leniency while pretending to the public that the government was "doing something." If you feel a claim of weather is unsupportable, feel free to complain to the CTA and see what they say.
I opened the case with the CTA regarding my flight cancellation in Jun 2022. AA responded to CTA that it was weather related. I escalated the situation at CTA and facilitator reached out to me with below email:
Dear XXXXX,
This is further to your complaint filed with the Canadian Transportation Agency (Agency), concerning the flight cancellation with American Airlines from Philadelphia to Toronto on June 16, 2022. I am the facilitator assigned to...
I opened the case with the CTA regarding my flight cancellation in Jun 2022. AA responded to CTA that it was weather related. I escalated the situation at CTA and facilitator reached out to me with below email:
Dear XXXXX,
This is further to your complaint filed with the Canadian Transportation Agency (Agency), concerning the flight cancellation with American Airlines from Philadelphia to Toronto on June 16, 2022. I am the facilitator assigned to review your complaint.
Upon receipt of an air travel complaint, we review your issues to assess whether a carrier appears to have met its obligations as outlined in the contract of carriage (tariff), the Air Passenger Protection Regulations (APPR) and the Agency Inquiry Decision 122-c-a-2021 of November 17, 2021.
I will be reaching out to American Airlines to provide the Agency with necessary information and documentation to facilitate the review of your claim.
I note that in your complaint there is a discrepancy on the reason for the flight cancellation. When I contact the carrier, I will attempt to obtain the exact reasons for the cause of the delay. However, I should alert you that under the APPR, a carrier's obligation is to ensure passengers complete their itinerary as soon as feasible. However passengers are not entitled to standards of treatment for meals and hotels (Section 14) nor compensation for inconvenience (Section 19) if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by adverse weather conditions, as it is considered to be outside of a carriers control (Section 10). I mention this as I do not want to build any false hopes or expectations as to what my review may achieve.
I will contact you when the review of the complaint has been completed. In the meantime, should you have any questions please do contact me.
Sincerely,
Ajai Hirani
(Il/He/His)
Facilitateur Principal, Direction générale du règlement des différends
Office des transports du Canada
[email protected]
Tél. : 873-353-6806
Suivez-nous: otc-cta.gc.ca / Twitter / YouTube
Facilitator, Dispute Resolution Branch
Canadian Transportation Agency
[email protected]
Tel.: 873-353-6806
Follow us: otc-cta.gc.ca / Twitter / YouTube
I responded to Mr. Hirani's email with this blog link for his review to highlight what AA has been doing in the name of weather
Take a look at this guide from the CTA, in particular "Staff shortages and crew duty time" and 'Knock-on effects": https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/types-and-categories-flight-disruption-a-guide
In short, AA may not owe you compensation if weather caused the crew to be delayed / unavailable. AA certainly did a poor job of explaining why they're denying you compensation, although all the Canadian airlines do the same.
Where'd you get the information in the photo about the flight information?
As Ben said, it's in ExpertFlyer. You have to buy a subscription though and they seem to only have statuses from the past week. So you have to remember to save a copy right after a flight that went wrong.
I missed that. Thanks!
Is it possible that the reason for crew delay was that the crew members inbound flights were delayed due to weather? Ultimately, apart from the occasional catastrophic computer melt-down, most snowballing airline problems begin due to some weather issues, typically impacting one or more of their hubs.
The other out for "safety" seems like another giant loophole where a malfunctioning coffee maker could be used to delay or cancel a flight without any airline liability...
Is it possible that the reason for crew delay was that the crew members inbound flights were delayed due to weather? Ultimately, apart from the occasional catastrophic computer melt-down, most snowballing airline problems begin due to some weather issues, typically impacting one or more of their hubs.
The other out for "safety" seems like another giant loophole where a malfunctioning coffee maker could be used to delay or cancel a flight without any airline liability for passenger compensation.
You write "But at the end of the day, airlines choosing to over schedule without sufficient reserve crews is something very much within a carrier’s control."
On what basis do you believe that the airline has "chosen" to "over schedule"? having worked in Network planning at various airlines, and having designed the schedules for many airlines, I can tell you that "over scheduling" isnt really something that is done. The schedule that is put out...
You write "But at the end of the day, airlines choosing to over schedule without sufficient reserve crews is something very much within a carrier’s control."
On what basis do you believe that the airline has "chosen" to "over schedule"? having worked in Network planning at various airlines, and having designed the schedules for many airlines, I can tell you that "over scheduling" isnt really something that is done. The schedule that is put out and published and then send to operation is only sent out and published once operations departments verify that there is crew to operate the schedule. Normally airlines can finalize their schedule 2-3 months before it's actually operational with the right schedules that reflect the final crew numbers. The final schedule that comes out does incorporate a buffer for operational issues and weather. Sometimes, though, there are an unusually large number of weather or other unforeseen operational issues that deplete available crew time more rapidly than expected, leading to cancelations like the ones Ford expected. Obviously, that's frustrating, and there are questions relating to the extent those crew issues are caused by the weather. But at the same time, that's not because the airlines have "over scheduled". They put out schedules they think they'll be able to fly based on the crew they have, prior operational experience, and a buffer. They dont intentionally publish schedules they dont think they'll be able to staff as a common practice.
Good explanation. An airline schedule can only be so elastic without the costs be astronomically high by having a huge surplus of spare crew/planes. Frankly, I don't think the public wants to pay for that
Because having sufficient crew on paper to staff the schedule you create - or having adequate staffing for anything other than everything going exactly as planned - is not the same as a reasonable expectation that it will actually work 365 days/year. If an MSP-based Delta flight attendant can’t get to the airport due to snow on the road, is that a weather related disruption? Or should an airline with a big crew base in...
Because having sufficient crew on paper to staff the schedule you create - or having adequate staffing for anything other than everything going exactly as planned - is not the same as a reasonable expectation that it will actually work 365 days/year. If an MSP-based Delta flight attendant can’t get to the airport due to snow on the road, is that a weather related disruption? Or should an airline with a big crew base in Minneapolis plan for the likelihood of snow-related disruptions and have enough staff to call in reserves from elsewhere, shuffle things around, etc?
As I said- they do plan for that issues- which is why I said they add a buffer- seasonally, based on historical information. But even the best laid plans can get screwed up.
Jason, you are wrong! That is why airlines should build buffers into their schedule and with record profits they can more than afford the cost without passing in onto the consumer.
They build a buffer in. I’ve built those buffers in. My colleagues and former colleagues build buffers in. Did you not read what I write? Sometimes it’s not enough. And that’s life.
US Airways was also notorious for misrepresenting delays. On one flight we were slightly delayed leaving because of weather, but it still left enough time for me to barely make my connection in CLT. We pushed back from the gate and the the captain attempted to start the engines but could not. We had to be towed back to the gate, wait for a ground power unit to be brought in and connected and then...
US Airways was also notorious for misrepresenting delays. On one flight we were slightly delayed leaving because of weather, but it still left enough time for me to barely make my connection in CLT. We pushed back from the gate and the the captain attempted to start the engines but could not. We had to be towed back to the gate, wait for a ground power unit to be brought in and connected and then 15 min later we finally could leave. This caused me to just misconnect in CLT resulting in a 6 hour layover but they wouldn't even provide a meal voucher because "according to our system, it was a weather delay." Conveniently nothing about the mechanical issue ever made it in to the record.
United lies too. I had a flight July 4 evening. They canceled it on July 3, text said due to "ground congestion" whatever that means. They rebooked me on a really awful 6am flight the next day or option of standby later. Extra night in hotel with rental car, little sleep, and lost day of work. The delay letter retroactively claims it was weather. Radar shows clear skies on the entire route +/-2hrs of schedule...
United lies too. I had a flight July 4 evening. They canceled it on July 3, text said due to "ground congestion" whatever that means. They rebooked me on a really awful 6am flight the next day or option of standby later. Extra night in hotel with rental car, little sleep, and lost day of work. The delay letter retroactively claims it was weather. Radar shows clear skies on the entire route +/-2hrs of schedule transit. They won't even offer up a few points for the inconvenience.
Another ignorant traveller who has no idea of the complexity of operating an airline.
Ground congestion - aprons taxiways runways etc could be construction etc
I guess you looked out of the window and it was sunny.
If you’re driving and there’s a contra flow due to construction I guess you would drive on the wrong side of the road.
Another ignorant blowhard casting aspersions absent information.
The flight was cancelled 30 hours in advance of takeoff due to "congestion" and then the delay letter blames weather. Which is it?
No construction of any sort at the outbound airport. Outbound airport has two functioning runways and less than 20 flights per day. Inbound airport was DIA which has no shortage of runways and while there were storms a few hours prior, arrivals were active and...
Another ignorant blowhard casting aspersions absent information.
The flight was cancelled 30 hours in advance of takeoff due to "congestion" and then the delay letter blames weather. Which is it?
No construction of any sort at the outbound airport. Outbound airport has two functioning runways and less than 20 flights per day. Inbound airport was DIA which has no shortage of runways and while there were storms a few hours prior, arrivals were active and largely on time.
As stated, thr flight path was clear for two hours around the flight window.
It seems perfectly reasonable that a crew availability issue is weather related. Not sure if that is the case here but there must be many situations where the crew is not available because the prior flight got delayed or canceled due to weather in some far flung destination.
Keep trying! I had an issue with US-CUN so I wasn’t protected by any regulations (which is why I’m hoping something passes here), but after 5 email exchanges and a phone call I got something I was satisfied with. I didn’t know about ExpertFlyer so I had detailed every event that was non-weather related and even mentioned our first pilot saying the delay was not weather related and the gate agent telling us to write...
Keep trying! I had an issue with US-CUN so I wasn’t protected by any regulations (which is why I’m hoping something passes here), but after 5 email exchanges and a phone call I got something I was satisfied with. I didn’t know about ExpertFlyer so I had detailed every event that was non-weather related and even mentioned our first pilot saying the delay was not weather related and the gate agent telling us to write to customer relations for compensation. I will say I believe their initial responses will be most likely an ML produced response, but if you’re persistent hopefully you will get a satisfactory response!
Crew availability caused by adverse weather due to them being displaced.
This is becoming more typical in Biden's America
Feel better? Way to hijack the thread with political garbage.
When the orange buffoon became president he gave the green light to slander, lies, insurrection, xenophobia and ignorance. Four years of lies.
This happened to me several times during Trump’s as well. But I don’t go blaming the Prez for this. It’s the airlines issue.
Not to be a total shill, but you may not have had a crew available because of upline weather. Crew stuck in CLT can’t fly JFK-YUL (or whatever your routing was).
The question becomes how many degrees removed from weather can they still ethically use that excuse. 1 flight later? 2? 5? There should be some regulation governing how long weather can be the excuse.
@ AA FA -- I hear you, and it's a fair question, and it's also why I made this post. I am genuinely curious if anyone knows the regulations here. I was under the impression that just some flight at some point having weather issues and leading to lack of aircraft or crew wouldn't be considered a valid "outside of our control" excuse for an airline.
"knock on" should not be excused. They chose to separate crew schedules from plane schedules for their own financial efficiency. While it makes total sense, they should assume the risks associated with cut corners.
This !!! Crew scheduling being impacted due to weather in a previous sector should fall under airline-controlled reasons. They choose to have just-in-time crew scheduling (which is understandable) allowing weather delays to cascade out of control. Their business model, their responsibility.
Again you gave no idea of the complexities of operating an airline
Can you see if any other airlines flew that same route within a similar time? If so, weather shouldn't be used as an excuse and they should compensate you for not having crew in place (that's on them for not hiring/scheduling correctly).
Fly Air Canada. You know what you’re signing up for when you fly American Airlines. You’re going to get rag dolled and the entire wash machine cycle. I would just move on.
Air Canada has had operational issues way worse than this. Last year was a horror show at airports in Toronto and Montreal on a daily basis throughout the summer. This year is apparently not much better.
I find that AA uses weather an excuse all the time. I mean, in summer it will rain every single day in Miami, sometimes it rains for 10 minutes, sometimes for hours. AA seems to use that excuse to cancel a flight instead of waiting 10 minutes that the weather cleared. Absolute BS on AA. Also where is their HEAT tool? A joke