Alaska Airlines recently acquired Hawaiian Airlines, fueling speculation as to whether the combined carrier might launch long haul flights from Seattle. Well, Alaska Air Group is wasting absolutely no time, and has today announced plans to turn Seattle into a global gateway, with transpacific flights launching in a matter of months.
Before we even talk about this, I just have to mention how impressed I am by how quickly Alaska is moving. I also still can’t believe that Alaska Air Group is finally adding long haul flights, after all of these years.
In this post:
Alaska Air Group has huge plans for Seattle
Alaska Air Group will turn Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA) into a global hub, with the goal of operating at least 12 nonstop long haul routes from the airport by 2030. Alaska is so committed to long haul flying out of Seattle that the airline plans to introduce a new flagship international lounge at the airport by 2027.
Alaska points out how its Seattle hub is the largest on the West Coast of any carrier, serving 104 nonstop destinations across North America, and that allows for convenient travel options and connections. The carrier has already revealed the first two long haul routes it plans to launch from the Pacific Northwest:
- As of May 12, 2025, Alaska will launch daily nonstop flights to Tokyo Narita (NRT); tickets are going on sale as of today
- As of October 2025, Alaska will launch daily nonstop flights to Seoul Incheon (ICN); tickets are going on sale as of early 2025
The new routes will initially be operated by Hawaiian Airbus A330-200s. Keep in mind that Alaska Air Group is maintaining two distinct brands, and since the two carriers are still on separate operating certificates, these will truly by Hawaiian flights. I do find it interesting that these routes are starting with A330s, given that they have a pretty lackluster business class product, rather than Hawaiian’s brand new Boeing 787-9s.
What long haul destinations could be added next? Alaska Air Group’s Investor Day presentation at least hints at the next long haul destinations the company may be considering, based on geographic advantages.
In addition to Tokyo and Seoul, it sounds like Bangkok, Delhi, Ho Chi Minh City, London, Manila, Paris, and Rome, might also be in the cards. Of course that could change, but it seems that’s the company’s thinking as of now.
Here’s how Alaska Air Group CEO Ben Minicucci describes this new Seattle strategy:
“We believe our guests will be as excited as we are about these new nonstop flights to Tokyo and Seoul – two of the world’s most dynamic cities. From our global gateway in Seattle, we can conveniently connect travelers from across our network as they head to Asia and beyond. Hawaiian’s spacious widebody aircraft, along with its excellent onboard service and amenities, will make for a terrific trip from one side of the Pacific Rim to the other.”
Alaska & Hawaiian evolve network with updated routes
In addition to the above, Alaska Air Group is also making strategic changes to which aircraft operate in which markets, with the goal being to improve performance, expand growth opportunities, and offer increased choice, network connectivity, and convenience. These adjustments are all being made between late March and late June of 2025.
Most of the initial changes involve updates to service between the mainland and Hawaii:
- Alaska Air Group will offer 20% more seats between Seattle and Honolulu, with three of six daily flights being operated by Hawaiian wide body aircraft
- In Portland, there will be three daily nonstop flights to Honolulu, with staggered departure times, and a 25% increase in available seats
- Alaska Air Group will offer two daily flights between San Diego and Maui, rather than just one
- Alaska Air Group will add new routes from San Francisco to Kona and Lihue, meaning the airline group will offer four daily nonstop flights to the four main airports in Hawaii
- Alaska Air Group wants to improve connectivity for East Coast and Midwest itineraries to Hawaii, by adding three redeye flights from Hawaii to the West Coast, including from Maui to San Diego, Maui to Portland, and Honolulu to San Francisco
- Alaska Air Group will fly an A330 once daily between Honolulu and Sacramento
Here’s another fun change — next summer, Alaska Air Group will fly a Hawaiian Airbus A330 between Seattle and Anchorage, to take advantage of the plane’s higher seating and cargo capacity. My gosh, a Hawaiian A330 flying between Seattle and Anchorage? What a time to be alive!
Alaska Air Group is also planning on improving aircraft utilization for Hawaiian’s Airbus A321neos and Boeing 787-9s. The A321neos will fly 25% more than before, and this strategy will mitigate the impact of delayed Boeing 737 deliveries.
My take on Alaska Air Group’s fascinating pivot
There’s so much to digest here. I’m not surprised to see Alaska Air Group launching long haul flights from Seattle, and if anything, I’m just surprised (or impressed) by how quickly it’s happening. A dozen long haul routes by 2030 represents a huge expansion.
The first thing that’s a bit surprising to me is that this growth will happen with A330s. While these planes have a perfectly nice premium product for flights to and from Hawaii, they’re hardly competitive globally, given the 2-2-2 configuration. Alaska Air Group notes there “plans to expand premium cabins on the wide body fleet are being developed,” and I have to imagine that also includes introducing a new product.
The second thing that comes to mind is that this is bad news for Delta. Delta has invested a lot in Seattle over the years, and has tried to turn it into a long haul hub. Alaska is a much bigger airline in Seattle than Delta is, and serves a lot more destinations. With plans to operate a dozen wide body routes, the airline also has much bigger growth plans in Seattle than Delta does.
As much as people nationally do like Delta as a brand, the Seattle community is still much more into Alaska, and I have to imagine many people will go out of their way to fly with the airline, especially given how compelling Mileage Plan is.
I’m very curious to see how this plays out — will Delta try to expand long haul service from Seattle preemptively, will Delta retreat, or will the status quo be maintained?
Bottom line
Alaska Air Group has announced what’s probably its most transformational network strategy shift ever, as the airline will start operating long haul flights out of Seattle with Hawaiian Airlines Airbus A330s. The first two destinations will be Tokyo Narita and Seoul Incheon, and the expectation is that we’ll see a dozen long haul routes by 2030.
I’m so excited to see how this all works out, as this has to be one of the most interesting airline mergers we’ve ever seen, with two brands so deeply connected to their home markets.
What do you make of Alaska Air Group’s global expansion?
I was disappointed when American Airlines didn't follow through on long-haul flights out of Seattle and wish that Delta had more. I'm very glad that Alaska is starting to do this and I hope it also prompts Delta to add more too. I want more nonstop international destinations from Seattle; especially Bangkok, Indian cities and Mediterranean Europe.
I wonder if SEA-DEL route is truly possible and economical while avoiding Russian airspace. AA canceled their SEA-BLR ambitious route not too long ago. They need A350s to meet the range otherwise.
Hope one of their international routes is to Bengaluru. AA killed it after the pandemic and UA (and now AI) having a direct flight from SFO.
a 787 simply cannot fly from SEA to India while respecting Russia airspace restrictions and carrying over 250 passengers which is the absolute minimum that AS would put on a 787 and probably much more.
A route from SEA to S. Asia would likely fly over Japan and then 9-10 hours more flying.
An A350 might be able to make it but likely still not with a viable passenger load.
As long as Russian airspace...
a 787 simply cannot fly from SEA to India while respecting Russia airspace restrictions and carrying over 250 passengers which is the absolute minimum that AS would put on a 787 and probably much more.
A route from SEA to S. Asia would likely fly over Japan and then 9-10 hours more flying.
An A350 might be able to make it but likely still not with a viable passenger load.
As long as Russian airspace restrictions remain in place, US carriers are very unlike to serve S. Asia from the west coast.
Not trying to go all Tim Dunn here but I really question the wisdom of this expansion. I seriously think these may be the two worst routes to try and compete on, ESPECIALLY Seoul given the Delta/Korean air joint venture there. Not on schedule, not on product, not on connections, and likely not on price either. Tokyo might be a little easier (or maybe I should say less worse) if they can take advantage of...
Not trying to go all Tim Dunn here but I really question the wisdom of this expansion. I seriously think these may be the two worst routes to try and compete on, ESPECIALLY Seoul given the Delta/Korean air joint venture there. Not on schedule, not on product, not on connections, and likely not on price either. Tokyo might be a little easier (or maybe I should say less worse) if they can take advantage of their Oneworld partnership with JAL, but they're still going to be up against ANA and Delta. I think they should try Hong Kong to feed in to Cathay Pacific's network (I would suggest Taipei/Starlux too although that route really doesn't need any more f'n airlines) and otherwise try underserved, leisure, or otherwise less premium routes, especially if they're intent on using the A330 instead of the 787. Maybe Osaka, Nagoya (Hawaiian actually has a lot of brand recognition in Japan), or maybe even Busan? Shanghai and Beijing if they expect a market recovery in China in the medium-term future? I do like the sound of Ho Chi Minh city and Bangkok though, just don't know how easy the economics of routes that long would be.
I think you're right, but Alaska doesn't really have many options. Secondary Japanese markets are all about Japanese point of sale. UA's poorly performing SFO-KIX shows it's very hard to pull off and that's with the ANA joint venture already. NRT at least offers access to plenty of SE Asia destinations lacking US nonstops like BKK, KUL, and CGK.
Regardless, they're now the 4th airline on both TYO and ICN and they're the only one...
I think you're right, but Alaska doesn't really have many options. Secondary Japanese markets are all about Japanese point of sale. UA's poorly performing SFO-KIX shows it's very hard to pull off and that's with the ANA joint venture already. NRT at least offers access to plenty of SE Asia destinations lacking US nonstops like BKK, KUL, and CGK.
Regardless, they're now the 4th airline on both TYO and ICN and they're the only one not in a JV to back them up. I really don't know how well they'll do, especially with their less competitive business class product. Tim does have a point to the extent that entering a highly competitive TPAC market without a JV is not easy.
The main thing AS has going for it is the domestic feed. Their hub is as large as UA is at SFO, which probably gives them a lot of confidence.
12 could be...
7 where delta has routes...
1. Amsterdam
London–Heathrow
Paris–Charles de Gaulle
Seoul–Incheon
Shanghai–Pudong
Taipei–Taoyuan
7. Tokyo–Haneda
then...
8. NRT (done)
Osaka
Beijing
Hanoi
12. Chiang Mai
tag flights on the last two would be cool as well.
Taipei would make a whole lot of sense
I really enjoy reading One Mile at a Time. The writing and energy are pleasant and enjoyable. Really the exact opposite of the comment from MaxPower.
I can’t explain why they’re starting off long haul routes with a 2-2-2 product without announcing a reconfiguration. They aren’t EK, they can’t skate by with a crap product
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quorumcall Diamond
December 10, 2024, 7:05 pm
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Tim Dunn Diamond
December 10, 2024, 7:55 pm
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December 10, 2024, 8:05 pm
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quorumcall Diamond
December 10, 2024, 8:46 pm
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3 more repliesI recognize they have a reconfiguration planned but it’s sometime vaguely in the future… you can’t pull an Allegris and do it in 2030!
just remember that UA took 8 years to install Polaris across most but not all of its widebody fleet, AA is delayed on a retrofit of its 777-300ER retrofit which has been planned for several years, and DL is just now working on its ex-Latam A350-900s which they acquired 3 years ago and have been operating in a temporary configuration ever since.
The supply chain is working at maximum output and lengthy delays and...
just remember that UA took 8 years to install Polaris across most but not all of its widebody fleet, AA is delayed on a retrofit of its 777-300ER retrofit which has been planned for several years, and DL is just now working on its ex-Latam A350-900s which they acquired 3 years ago and have been operating in a temporary configuration ever since.
The supply chain is working at maximum output and lengthy delays and MRO space is very limited for extra projects. It will likely be 3-5 years for all of HA's 330 fleet to be reconfigured if they use a best-in-class business class seat. remember that HA's 787s don't even have premium economy which would seem to be a requirement for international service in this day and age.
I roll my eyes with all of the comments about J configuration, when the HA J cabin is so relatively small.
I usually turn left at the aircraft door, whereas several hundred turn right at the door ... the endless J configuration comments are asinine.
Yes, several hundred turn right — but J has an outsized impact on the viability of a route because the profit margins are better. And this is a blog for the people turning left
The article spends a lot of space salivating over Alaska and a bit over the "Seattle Community." Sadly none of that will help SEA, an already overtired international airport.
We flew in and out of there on DL enroute YVR. We landed 25 min early but they had us taxi to a northside parking lot. There was a mobile jetbridge there but the crew (they have just one) were helping another aircraft. So we waited....
The article spends a lot of space salivating over Alaska and a bit over the "Seattle Community." Sadly none of that will help SEA, an already overtired international airport.
We flew in and out of there on DL enroute YVR. We landed 25 min early but they had us taxi to a northside parking lot. There was a mobile jetbridge there but the crew (they have just one) were helping another aircraft. So we waited. The APU was off.
Eventually the crew came over and moved the jetbridge (gantry?) over and they had us all deplane... even the infirm, disabled, etc.
At the bottom was a bus. ONE bus. No backup bus. They tried to squeeze us all in. No A/C. The people in wheelchairs were holding up people behind them with no wheelchairs as they came down the jetbridge/gantry ramp so that took a while. There wasn't enough room for the crew so they stayed behind.
Then the driver showed up and she slowly took us through that northern lot and to the D gates area, north side of the terminal and nowhere near our connecting flight. Also on DL.
We went off the bus into a zigzag concrete ramp that led us to an entrance to the terminal where we took 2 flights of stairs to a tram that took us to an intermediate terminal where we took a 2nd tram to the final terminal where there were "only" 3 flights of stairs to get to our gate.
BTW on Tram#2 we ran into the crew. You see after our overloaded slow bus left, a shuttle car picked up the crew and whisked them to the intermediate stop, skipping the zigzag concrete ramp, the underground trek, tram#1, etc.
Through it all we heard one "Please pardon our construction." No, I don't.
One week later their underpaid undercompetent IT department took their entire network down including phones, kiosks, ATMs, websites, gate status boards, etc. because they didn't know how to "deal with a hacker intrusion" that NEVER HAPPENED. That's why that got buried under the rug never to be heard from again.
I will never fly through SEA ever. I will never visit SEA again. But hey, your new fave girl "Alaska" said they are good so go for it. P.S. My Alaska CC and my 100K miles and their weekly "offers" have gotten me exactly this much: 0.
I wonder if Alaska or Hawaiian would have the right aircraft for a SEA-SYD or BNE flight?
I’d imagine a lot of Australian travellers to the US would like that option.
A 787-9 could do either. But Alaska had a chart in their press release talking about which of the destinations are better served geographically by SEA vs their southern hubs in SFO/LAX.
What does this mean for Alaska and American? As of now it's Delta that probably feels most threatened by this expansion out of SEA, but if Alaska expands further into Asia/Europe then I wonder what it means for the AA/JL and AA/BA/IB/AY joint ventures.
Mate tell me you really didn't write theses 2 lines and that an editor put them in as a joke...
Here’s another fun change — next summer, ... and then...
My gosh, a Hawaiian A330 flying between Seattle and Anchorage? What a time to be alive!
What's "fun" about it? Why not "interesting"? Americans use the word "fun" totally out of context too often.
And if you feel an A330 between Seattle and anchorage is life, you need to get a life, even as an aviation geek.
By writing "mate", it's clear you are a quintessential Aussie cynic. Start with a cynical comment, then go out for a beer and laughs after the meeting...
So they’re growing SEA at the expense of HNL. They bought a money losing airline with a money losing network, so they’re moving assets to SEA, logical. But in essence they’re giving Hawaii away to the big boys. I personally think the Hawaiian brand is on borrowed time- it will fold into Alaska.
As for Delta, I don’t think they’re too worried. Because they’re a global airline with a network to match. Because for...
So they’re growing SEA at the expense of HNL. They bought a money losing airline with a money losing network, so they’re moving assets to SEA, logical. But in essence they’re giving Hawaii away to the big boys. I personally think the Hawaiian brand is on borrowed time- it will fold into Alaska.
As for Delta, I don’t think they’re too worried. Because they’re a global airline with a network to match. Because for 70% of the USA, Alaska is never an option simply because we’re flying north, south or East- and Alaska only offers west. So Delta can handle competing in SEA because they’re making money hand over fist all across the rest of the country.
And also, Seoul?? Oneworld has no presence there, Delta and Korean are going to clean their clock on that route!
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A220HubandSpoke Diamond
December 10, 2024, 4:47 pm
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Tim Dunn Diamond
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A220HubandSpoke Diamond
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7 more repliesSeoul lacking a Oneworld presence is exactly why it's a good idea to expand there.
It means that AS, who make money off codeshares, aren't overflying themselves. Any money made in ICN is taken off DL/KE/OZ, and not (impacting) JL.
you clearly don't understand network dynamics.
DL/KE/OZ currently operate 3 flights/day from SEA-ICN. They are largely on top of each other. They will likely spread them out and create new hub complexes at both SEA and ICN that will make it impossible for AS to find a network advantage.
By adding ICN, AS just confirmed that the DOJ was right in not putting any additional restrictions on the DL/KE JV or the KE/OZ merger.
@Tim Dunn you're an idiot. You read and commented on that CF blog article on UAs TATL expansion, which noted how all that Western Europe flying (intentionally) avoided overfly their Lufthansa Group partners. This isn't much different.
The KE/OZ merger isn't a threat at all, as demonstrated by the lack of opposition from ANA, JAL, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, etc etc
do you have any clue what you are talking about?
AS doesn't have any international partners other than JL and CX which are nothing more than alliance partners, not JV partners.
UA and LH are JV partners.
And the gist of the CF article is that LH's hubs are too far east in Europe so that UA has to "fill in" large areas of Europe which AA/BA/IB and AF/DL/KL can easily serve without deviation.
...do you have any clue what you are talking about?
AS doesn't have any international partners other than JL and CX which are nothing more than alliance partners, not JV partners.
UA and LH are JV partners.
And the gist of the CF article is that LH's hubs are too far east in Europe so that UA has to "fill in" large areas of Europe which AA/BA/IB and AF/DL/KL can easily serve without deviation.
Further, with the current Russian airspace restrictions, flights from the US to ICN fly right over Tokyo or very close to it and then head west to S. Korea.
AS WILL overfly its own partner hub enroute to ICN.
and ANA, JAL, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, etc etc don't get to object to a merger between two S. Korean airlines serving the US market. They can object to flights between S. Korea and Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan etc etc but not between S. Korea and the US
Just stop, please. You continue to argue and just make a bigger fool of yourself because you get so many things confused.
@Tim Dunn, I honestly expected better from you.
First of all, like I already said, Alaska makes money off codeshares. They don't sell many codeshares to ICN as that's a DL/KE/OZ market, so lots of revenue potential.
Second, your assertion that a nonstop flight to Malaga, Spain is a strategic necessity is absolutely ridiculous. They fly routes like that best makes money, partly due to their weak presence there to begin with.
...@Tim Dunn, I honestly expected better from you.
First of all, like I already said, Alaska makes money off codeshares. They don't sell many codeshares to ICN as that's a DL/KE/OZ market, so lots of revenue potential.
Second, your assertion that a nonstop flight to Malaga, Spain is a strategic necessity is absolutely ridiculous. They fly routes like that best makes money, partly due to their weak presence there to begin with.
Thirdly, South Korea had to receive approval from nearly a dozen countries for the merger, with one of the latest to approve that is... Japan. Both ANA and JAL are very close to the Japanese government and did not exercise their lobbying power.
Yes Tim. Everyone is clearly laughing at me, not the person who conjured up a number of mockers and reply guys.
I see your point but don’t really agree with it. Delta and their soon to be super sized partner Korean will have better scale, better schedules, and better products than Alaska. Being fed from both sides of the route, they can (and will) easily squeeze Alaska out in a fare war with those better schedules and product.
AS is using the new combined fleet to right-size the network. It's simple and smart. Using smaller gauge equipment with more frequencies, as well as many more secondary market nonstops than any other airline leverages the combined strength of HA/AS... likely more secondary markets to come given AS West Coast strength.
They aren't abandoning Hawaii... and it's just silly (stupid) to think the Hawaiian brand would disappear. Brand equity and politics guarantee that it'll...
AS is using the new combined fleet to right-size the network. It's simple and smart. Using smaller gauge equipment with more frequencies, as well as many more secondary market nonstops than any other airline leverages the combined strength of HA/AS... likely more secondary markets to come given AS West Coast strength.
They aren't abandoning Hawaii... and it's just silly (stupid) to think the Hawaiian brand would disappear. Brand equity and politics guarantee that it'll never disappear.
I just roll my eyes at your other comments...
Well keep those eyes rolling, because what’s coming out of your mouth isn’t helping your look. I think operating two brands, with two liveries, two cabin fits, two uniforms, etc is silly (stupid), but we’ll see what the future holds! Keep some eye drops handy!
"My gosh, a Hawaiian A330 flying between Seattle and Anchorage? What a time to be alive!" ya crack me up :))))))
I could thought HKG, PVD could be served b4 SGN, BKK
Interesting comments.
Not mentioned, and my questions:
- will ASG have to open a 330 crew base at SEA? Will HA 330 crew want to relocate from HNL to SEA? I realize that they might also just commute...
- Can they cycle the 330's via HNL for maintenance? Opening with just NRT and ICN I'm sure that's possible, but when they expand up to 12 routes in the future will that be possible? I'm...
Interesting comments.
Not mentioned, and my questions:
- will ASG have to open a 330 crew base at SEA? Will HA 330 crew want to relocate from HNL to SEA? I realize that they might also just commute...
- Can they cycle the 330's via HNL for maintenance? Opening with just NRT and ICN I'm sure that's possible, but when they expand up to 12 routes in the future will that be possible? I'm assuming they world need a basic maintenence crew in SEA for turnarounds?
And as per normal, all the chat about product is focused on the J cabin, when of course the bulk of seats are in Y (yes, I know the yield difference, but it varies by market anyways). Even then, the current HA J cabin is pretty small, so it won't substantially weigh down financial performance if it's discounted, not to mention ASGs likely strong corporate contracts in SEA and the region.
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Tim Dunn Diamond
December 10, 2024, 2:35 pm
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LAXLonghorn Guest
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Tim Dunn Diamond
December 10, 2024, 5:13 pm
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2 more repliesAS has to come up with joint collective bargaining agreements with all of its labor groups as part of the transition and they will not likely open any new bases for either side until that is done. Labor has no reason to help the company until AS forks out the money for industry-leading or at least top of industry competitive contracts.
as for aircraft maintenance, HA contracted out a lot of its maintenance to other...
AS has to come up with joint collective bargaining agreements with all of its labor groups as part of the transition and they will not likely open any new bases for either side until that is done. Labor has no reason to help the company until AS forks out the money for industry-leading or at least top of industry competitive contracts.
as for aircraft maintenance, HA contracted out a lot of its maintenance to other airlines and providers including to DL.
AS has said it will take that maintenance in-house but they can't overhaul engines for which they are not authorized.
On an interview released today, AS' CEO complained about the high cost of maintaining new generation engines on top of reliability that is well below what was expected, including for the LEAP engine on the MAX.
DL has exclusive N. America maintenance contracts for most of the engines that fly or will fly on commercial planes in the US with the GE engines on the 777X and 787 and the LEAP engine on the A320NEO family being the largest exceptions.
AS might want to think it can the battle of SEA but DL will be the only US airline other than the manufacturer networks themselves that make money fixing AS and other airlines' engines.
Thanks, Tim.
I'm not sure what engines the HA 332's use, so we'll see.
DL does a great job monetizing everything. I was twice invited to the DL ATL campus and had the ultimate joy of spending time in the simulators. They had a bunch of older aircraft simulators, and I asked why... they make money by renting them to other airlines.
My last visit was simulating flights to/ from HNL.... ironic
they have Rolls Royce engines.
LOL… In a few years, most people in SEA may not even recognize that ‘Delta’ is the name of an airline.
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Tim Dunn Diamond
December 10, 2024, 2:37 pm
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A220HubandSpoke Diamond
December 10, 2024, 4:49 pm
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Tim Dunn Diamond
December 10, 2024, 5:15 pm
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2 more repliesyou might want to temper your enthusiasm for DL's demise with the reality that DL uses a pretty big share of SEA's airspace which AS' CEO admits is not growing and which is near capacity.
Widebodies take up more airspace - and ground space - than narrowbodies - so the notion that SEA has a huge amount of additional space for growth is simply a pipe dream.
Weird. Didn't you @Tim Dunn try to use that "lack of space" excuse when other airlines were expanding just fine in SEA?
Delta themselves said in a investor presentation that they plan to grow international a lot from their coastal hubs, which include Seattle. Are you saying that DL lied here?
thank you for noting that DL did say it intends to grow at SEA... a whole lot of people think DL is going to stagnate based on AS' plans which include a list of flights, the first of which hasn't even taken off.
SEA is NEAR capacity. It isn't there now. But SEA is not getting any new runways. When other airlines including DL have added the international flights they want to add, there might not be near as much capacity left at SEA as AS or alot of people think.
My son needs an extra Xanax this morning. This is a lot for him to process.
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Nasir Guest
December 10, 2024, 12:36 pm
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PNWguy Guest
December 10, 2024, 2:57 pm
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Tim Dunn Diamond
December 10, 2024, 9:56 pm
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2 more repliesMomma seems too worried about her baby boy.
LOLLLLL!
You go, Momma!
she is funnier that some of the other characters but I can assure you I have never taken Xanax or any other anti-anxiety medication and am not about to start today - or tomorrow.
If only Alaska was a viable airline for anyone east of the Rockies.
Any ideas how this will overlap the major construction for AS at SEA? At the moment, it’s taken out one TSA checkpoint, in addition to making everything AS a mess. But with SEA as my home airport, I welcome any and all international expansion. It took me 3 flights to get home from Rome a couple weeks ago!
That seems to be more of a you-thing, as any number of airlines offer 1stops between Seattle and Rome.
DL loses money in both SEA and BOS to AK and B6. It's time they stop fooling themselves and just make them focus cities.
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Tim Dunn Diamond
December 10, 2024, 9:51 am
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Timothy Dunn Jr Guest
December 10, 2024, 10:51 am
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9 more repliesfeel free to provide the data to prove that.
And, even if it is true, how come Delta can manage to lose money in at least two hubs and still be the most profitable US airline and the highest market cap airline in the world?
What did DL do that AA and UA not figure out what to do in the same nearly 50 years that the US airline industry has been deregulated?
No, DL,...
feel free to provide the data to prove that.
And, even if it is true, how come Delta can manage to lose money in at least two hubs and still be the most profitable US airline and the highest market cap airline in the world?
What did DL do that AA and UA not figure out what to do in the same nearly 50 years that the US airline industry has been deregulated?
No, DL, makes money in all of its hubs even if ATL generates a disproportionate amount of DL's profits, making DL's statement that its core hubs make the majority of its profits.
And anyone that thinks that AS will immediately have success need only look at B6 and the struggles it has had trying to be a legacy/global carrier. AS has parts of the equation of the legacy carriers but adding widebodies doesn't and won't make AS more successful overnight.
and let's not forget that AS doesn't even have joint collective bargaining agreements with its labor groups and is shrinking its presence in Hawaii in order to make this all happen, leaving Hawaii open to more competition.
why do you keep repeating your usual nonsense when Delta says their profits come from their monopolistic core hubs and makes no such claims about their coastal hubs? Over and OVER again, Delta has said in their investor days that their high margins are due to the amex relationship and "High margin core hubs". And they said that in their last investor day. Do you really hate facts this much? You seem to be the...
why do you keep repeating your usual nonsense when Delta says their profits come from their monopolistic core hubs and makes no such claims about their coastal hubs? Over and OVER again, Delta has said in their investor days that their high margins are due to the amex relationship and "High margin core hubs". And they said that in their last investor day. Do you really hate facts this much? You seem to be the only one trying to contradict Delta in their investor day.
Feel free to show us when Delta has said anything similar about profitability at their coastal hubs in the last four years.
It's like you don't even care what your own airline says about their profitability.
Also, anyone with a brain can figure out that, ex-credit card, United is much more profitable than Delta at this point.
Your predicted meltdown is kind of embarrassing for you that everyone and their brother can predict your nonsensical responses and 5 year old level temper tantrums to a simple article.
because they don't say that...
you and others manipulate what Delta does say because you can't handle the reality that DL really does outperform its peers financially.
All you and others do by repeating the same lies raises the question of how DL has managed to do what AA and UA can't or haven't done in nearly 50 years.
your inability to address where AA and UA underperform while repeating lies about DL's profitability...
because they don't say that...
you and others manipulate what Delta does say because you can't handle the reality that DL really does outperform its peers financially.
All you and others do by repeating the same lies raises the question of how DL has managed to do what AA and UA can't or haven't done in nearly 50 years.
your inability to address where AA and UA underperform while repeating lies about DL's profitability shows how sensitive it is that DL outperforms AA and UA on the bottom line - which IS driven by its performance in its hubs.
AS is no different.
They are adding an enormous amount of complexity and will compete for a nationwide network against 3 legacy carriers that have multiple hubs.
AS is creating a widebody version of B6. AS is clearly a better run company but anyone that thinks that AS will be a slam dunk is incredibly naive.
This is AS' day to lay out lofty goals. The following weeks will be when AS' competitors answer followed by how AS executes including with increasing pay for its employees that are no longer willing to be paid second tier salaries because AS is just a niche domestic airline.
No one is talking about relative performance of AA and UA. Yes, United is more profitable ex credit card. Only the weirdest Delta fanboy would suggest otherwise. AA obviously is not.
And yes. Slide 36 of their most recent investor day. In a slide titled "consistent margin outperformance" Delta said "High Margin Core Hubs" was one of 5 reasons for their profitability. Their coastal hubs were nowhere to be found in that reference. The...
No one is talking about relative performance of AA and UA. Yes, United is more profitable ex credit card. Only the weirdest Delta fanboy would suggest otherwise. AA obviously is not.
And yes. Slide 36 of their most recent investor day. In a slide titled "consistent margin outperformance" Delta said "High Margin Core Hubs" was one of 5 reasons for their profitability. Their coastal hubs were nowhere to be found in that reference. The other items were "Revenue diversity", partnerships, ops performance, and "corporate leadership" whatever that means...
You can babble all you want. But feel free to show anyone where delta EVER talks about the profitability of their coastal hubs in the last four years. They don't.
Time to walk away until you even attempt to back up your idiotic claims.
DL said the MAJORITY of its profits come from its 4 hubs - and the reality is that more than half comes from ATL alone - but they aren't going to say that.
you remain fixated on the notion that DL loses money in 4 of its hubs if it helps you sleep at night.
and you and everyone else still can't answer the question as to how DL managed to build an ATL of...
DL said the MAJORITY of its profits come from its 4 hubs - and the reality is that more than half comes from ATL alone - but they aren't going to say that.
you remain fixated on the notion that DL loses money in 4 of its hubs if it helps you sleep at night.
and you and everyone else still can't answer the question as to how DL managed to build an ATL of their own or even 3 other hubs that provide the MAJORITY (not totality) of their profits.
And feel free to let us know where AA and UA lose money since DL manages to have the highest profits and still have all of those money-losing hubs.
@Tim Dunn I actually have to agree with you there. The more profitable Emirates makes more money off a single DXB hub than DL does, despite Delta having more hubs.
But it does seem weird that DL won't admit this and you're the only one (apart from me) going against what DAL themselves said...
Is ATL bankrolling the company? Yes, but let's not pretend that BOS is a money printer. You don't increase capacity by double digit margins right off the bat and make money.
EK flies a fleet of large widebodies 1/4 the size of DL's entire fleet.
You truly don't understand airlines much based on what you have written today.
ATL may be bankrolling DL.
What you and others can't seem to admit is that if does that well, then what have AA and UA NOT done that they can operate as many money-losing hubs as DL operates even as DL still is the most profitable...
EK flies a fleet of large widebodies 1/4 the size of DL's entire fleet.
You truly don't understand airlines much based on what you have written today.
ATL may be bankrolling DL.
What you and others can't seem to admit is that if does that well, then what have AA and UA NOT done that they can operate as many money-losing hubs as DL operates even as DL still is the most profitable airline in the US - and far more profitable than EK.
Why is it so hard for YOU to admit that DL really does make alot of money in lots of hubs - and AA and UA clearly don't or they would be far more profitable than DL?
Your childish logic is on full display - and showing you and everyone else how stupid it is is part of the joy I have in playing on this site.
So @Tim Dunn you confirmed my point.
Emirates makes a lot more money than Delta, despite being a lot smaller.
Delta, despite also making a lot of money, looks really poorly run by comparison.
Emirates is indeed more profitable than Delta. You truly don't understand basic numbers much based on what you have written today.
except EK doesn't make more money than DL.
EK makes more money at one hub because they have more capacity at one hub - even more than ATL
How you confuse the most basic points is truly mind-boggling.
btw, how about you google
Which is the richest airline in the world?
and you will get:
Delta Air Lines ranks first by revenue, total assets, market capitalization and brand value.
everyone except you gets it.
Daddy,
Why does he need to provide data when you never do?
Appreciate all the announcements about expanded international service.
However, to achieve true economy of scale, back office operations need to be consolidated in a hurry or the merger will move forward in fits and jerks. Hope someone is mapping this out in detail from the IT systems down to the napkins.
I understand they did take a leap by dropping the Barclays co-branded Hawaiian credit card with BOA picking up the entire portfolio.
Lots and lots of work ahead.
as usual, I am talked about more before than I actually join the conversation than any other participant. and you wonder why I hold court on here.
As for AS' announcement, it was clear that HA's business model was failing so, AS, after years of trying to copy WN as being a 737 only operation, decided to copy DL. Problem is that AS really was a low cost airline but it won't be any more......
as usual, I am talked about more before than I actually join the conversation than any other participant. and you wonder why I hold court on here.
As for AS' announcement, it was clear that HA's business model was failing so, AS, after years of trying to copy WN as being a 737 only operation, decided to copy DL. Problem is that AS really was a low cost airline but it won't be any more... AS' announcement ensures that it will pay as much if not more than DL and other legacies (UA excepted that can't be bothered to settle with its confused union, the AFA).
DL has long had the revenue advantage to the eastern US from SEA and also internationally. DL has multiple flights on its own metal to Europe as well as across the Pacific - as well as with joint venture partners.
AS will start its longhaul international expansion by serving NRT, an airport that gets just 2/3 of the average fare of flights to HND from the same destination. NRT makes sense if you have a joint venture but AS does not have one and even JL agrees to add AS to the AA-JL JV, it will mean the end of AA-JL cooperation at least as far as international goes. The US does not and will not allow two US carriers to have a JV with the same foreign carrier.
As for ICN, AS' entrance proves precisely why there were no restrictions needed on the KE-OZ merger and why the DL-KE JV can continue. DL/KE/OZ operate 3 flights per day from SEA-ICN with far more seats than SEA-Tokyo and yet there are slots available for new entrants.
AS will have no JVs on the end of their Asia routes.
They will be a bottom feeder, not unlike B6, but using widebodies.
And AS will leave Hawaii even more exposed to competition. Anyone that thinks that either UA or WN will take AS' growth in HA capacity laying down will be in for a rude awakening.
Good luck to AS; what they think will happen and what actually happens will be two very different things.
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7 more repliesOnly you would be flattered that people laugh and joke about the arrival of the Delta court jester.
Most people have slightly higher self respect than you to be flattered by one or two others mentioning your impending meltdown given your reputation.
and, as usual, on day when there is an enormous amount of news to actually discuss, you show up as the village idiot and are consumed with other people with absolutely nothing to discuss on the topic.
Says the guy who showed up talking about holding court yet looking like the village idiot with zero self awareness
Grow up, loser
I realize insults and lies are all you have in life, but you could try actually having a life
Remember at the time of the merger when you said anyone thinking Alaska would add long-haul from Seattle in the next year or two was a fanboy and wrong? There are plenty of receipts on that - obviously you were very wrong.
Alaska has something in Seattle no one else has - 2x+ the domestic feed in Seattle vs any other carrier and market leading position in the region for the most U.S. feed. It...
Remember at the time of the merger when you said anyone thinking Alaska would add long-haul from Seattle in the next year or two was a fanboy and wrong? There are plenty of receipts on that - obviously you were very wrong.
Alaska has something in Seattle no one else has - 2x+ the domestic feed in Seattle vs any other carrier and market leading position in the region for the most U.S. feed. It will also soon be able to match Delta’s long-haul offerings.
We do not know about the Alaska entry into the JAL-AA JV, but your claim that it will not be allowed is pure hope. There is no such rule. If it can pass admin hurdles and anti-trust regulations under the new Trump admin, it could very well be possible.
The only legitimate takeaway industry experts (like Cranky and Enilria) is that Delta will be under major pressure in SEA as the #2. Not everything will work for Alaska, but outside the Sky JV hubs, Alaska has a pretty good shot at making Delta the #2 in markets such as LHR or other leisure markets given its larger SEA market share. We’ll see what happens.
DL serves all of the major markets from SEA; the addition of a bunch of secondary and tertiary markets is not going to make or break international flights.
The success of international will be dependent on JVs and an industry leading product.
AS doesn't have JVs and if they do, they will knock AA out of their orbit as well as many if not all of the codesharing that AS currently does with other...
DL serves all of the major markets from SEA; the addition of a bunch of secondary and tertiary markets is not going to make or break international flights.
The success of international will be dependent on JVs and an industry leading product.
AS doesn't have JVs and if they do, they will knock AA out of their orbit as well as many if not all of the codesharing that AS currently does with other carriers.
DL has access to all of the major primary airports. Let us know when AS gets access to HND and LHR.
"DL serves all of the major markets from SEA; the addition of a bunch of secondary and tertiary markets is not going to make or break international flights.
The success of international will be dependent on JVs and an industry leading product."
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is Tim Dunn's knowledge level of hubs and airlines: Delta being half the size of Alaska in SEA does not matter. Only pure destinations served matters. Incremental feed...
"DL serves all of the major markets from SEA; the addition of a bunch of secondary and tertiary markets is not going to make or break international flights.
The success of international will be dependent on JVs and an industry leading product."
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is Tim Dunn's knowledge level of hubs and airlines: Delta being half the size of Alaska in SEA does not matter. Only pure destinations served matters. Incremental feed and frequency doesn't matter at a hub...
Tim, Thank you for making it so easy to show your ignorance and pure Delta fanboyism. This was a quote for the ages.
Yes, Tim, the amount of feed going into an international hub does matter, a lot. Just ask AA at ORD where they're in a better position vs UA at ORD than DL is vs AS at SEA. Or AA in NYC where they're in a relatively similar situation to DL as DL is in SEA vs Alaska.
Yes, Tim, feed does matter for an international hub.
To a certain extent, but not really. Delta's only JV hub in Asia is Seoul. In Europe it's only London (not really b/c since Virgin is a small player - Delta will not have an advantage), Paris, and Amsterdam. Maybe Copenhagen becomes one? TBD but it's not a major hub.
Every other route outside of that Delta will have little to no advantage over Alaska entering sans perhaps Tokyo for Haneda for now. Alaska will...
To a certain extent, but not really. Delta's only JV hub in Asia is Seoul. In Europe it's only London (not really b/c since Virgin is a small player - Delta will not have an advantage), Paris, and Amsterdam. Maybe Copenhagen becomes one? TBD but it's not a major hub.
Every other route outside of that Delta will have little to no advantage over Alaska entering sans perhaps Tokyo for Haneda for now. Alaska will also have code-shares with strong POS airlines across Asia and Europe - BA, Singapore, Starlux, Cathay, etc. w/ some US feed from AA.
Alaska will be able to get LHR slots - JetBlue just did, Qatar purchased a few a few months ago, etc. - HND will be tougher, but as MaxPower mentioned, Delta has admitted it has a few slots (HNL-HND and MSP-HND) that have not done well since COVID as of 8 months ago.
Point is, where can Delta grow from SEA now? Outside the JV hubs Alaska can basically block them and with the significantly higher feed Delta will hurt. Even before this, you can look at the SEA-TPE LFs - they're terrible for Delta (~50%) who is 4th out of 4 players.
Tim: as someone with a medical degree, I think you’re way overdue for a lithium prescription.
This is great news for customers. It's going to force Delta to actually invest back into the Pacific routes. Connecting through Seoul just isn't appealing. And that China Eastern partnership in Shanghai has all but fallen apart. You never hear that talked about anymore.
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Tim Dunn Diamond
December 10, 2024, 9:26 am
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7 more repliesthere will be more SEA international routes from DL and its JV partners.
And DL is expected to announce the movement of the 339s from SEA to the Atlantic and addition of the ex-Latam 359s that are being converted to DL standards with an even larger business class cabin and fewer seats.
The irony, of course, is that formerly proudly all Boeing AS will be serving SEA to Asia with decade old A330s while DL...
there will be more SEA international routes from DL and its JV partners.
And DL is expected to announce the movement of the 339s from SEA to the Atlantic and addition of the ex-Latam 359s that are being converted to DL standards with an even larger business class cabin and fewer seats.
The irony, of course, is that formerly proudly all Boeing AS will be serving SEA to Asia with decade old A330s while DL uses A350s. I'll let Ben do the counting but it appears that Airbus widebodies might be more numerous at SEA than Boeing's.
"there will be more SEA international routes from DL and its JV partners."
We've been hearing that for 9 years. Even since Delta dropped Narita to Hong Kong. It's never materialized.
"We've been hearing that for 9 years. Even since Delta dropped Narita to Hong Kong. It's never materialized."
Yep, and what do we (finally) eventually get? Taipei, a route with a million other competitors incoming, connecting to yet another partner hub, but this one whom Delta barely even works with.
To be fair though, Tokyo is another route with a bunch of competition?
There are now also 4x airlines operating SEA to TYO. The HA A330s are questionable to be honest.
"will be serving SEA to Asia with decade old A330s"
Or, another way to say it:
"will be serving SEA to Asia with paid off, fully amortized, reliable aircraft that grant them easy flexibility to test markets before applying their more-capable incoming flagship aircraft, just like Delta did."
Both are true at the same time. ;)
The MU alliance has largely fallen apart because China, its relationship with the U.S., and traffic between China and the U.S. has largely fallen apart in the last several years. Personally, I've been to Shanghai a few times in the past (both to go there and for connections,) but I would actively avoid it now. It's sad to see both Russia and China returning to a Cold War era authoritarian and antagonistic mentality, but it's...
The MU alliance has largely fallen apart because China, its relationship with the U.S., and traffic between China and the U.S. has largely fallen apart in the last several years. Personally, I've been to Shanghai a few times in the past (both to go there and for connections,) but I would actively avoid it now. It's sad to see both Russia and China returning to a Cold War era authoritarian and antagonistic mentality, but it's realistically where we are today. And, as much as I'd like to see Taipei replace Shanghai as the close partner hub, the reality is that China makes that risky, too.
"It's sad to see both Russia and China returning to a Cold War era authoritarian and antagonistic mentality"
Oh please, with this horsesh|t. Just got back from Shanghai, going back again next month. They're fine, they're no danger to anyone here.
Just the same intra-slavic and intra-sinoid conflicts that have been going on for centuries and won't change: no one's "Cold War" anything. They're also not the ones propping up a completely rogue state hellbent...
"It's sad to see both Russia and China returning to a Cold War era authoritarian and antagonistic mentality"
Oh please, with this horsesh|t. Just got back from Shanghai, going back again next month. They're fine, they're no danger to anyone here.
Just the same intra-slavic and intra-sinoid conflicts that have been going on for centuries and won't change: no one's "Cold War" anything. They're also not the ones propping up a completely rogue state hellbent on destabilizing the already most-unstable region on Earth, in the Middle East.
Let's be clear. Delta dropped Tokyo first because it expected China Eastern to supplant its intra-Asia network. When geopolitical problems made that difficult, they pivoted toward Korean in Seoul. Before Delta got in bed with China Eastern, Delta flew to Taipei and even had a ticket office in Taipei. That became problematic and they dumped it.
And this is the nail in the coffin for New Pacific Airways.
Sounds like Delta is just going to need to sit on their money-losing Haneda slots (per their own DOT filing). Pretty obvious Alaska would be the first in line to grab one to fly SEA-HND otherwise.
If you look at Delta's DOT filing from 2023, HNL and MSP are likely still hurting, HNL especially since it was FAR lower in demand return vs even PDX. Even a casual glance at Delta's HNL-HND flights makes you...
Sounds like Delta is just going to need to sit on their money-losing Haneda slots (per their own DOT filing). Pretty obvious Alaska would be the first in line to grab one to fly SEA-HND otherwise.
If you look at Delta's DOT filing from 2023, HNL and MSP are likely still hurting, HNL especially since it was FAR lower in demand return vs even PDX. Even a casual glance at Delta's HNL-HND flights makes you wonder if Delta really just hangs on to a slot just to lose money since they're consistently the low fare leader across all cabins.
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December 10, 2024, 9:12 am
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December 10, 2024, 2:54 pm
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3 more repliesyou do realize that this is the end of 2024, don't you?
And you also realize that HA is the largest carrier in the Hawaii to Japan market, don't you?
If DL struggles on HND-HNL, HA all the more so by trying to fly from both HND and NRT.
your wet dreams of any HND slots becoming a reality not only prove that you know full well why HND is the preferred airport for...
you do realize that this is the end of 2024, don't you?
And you also realize that HA is the largest carrier in the Hawaii to Japan market, don't you?
If DL struggles on HND-HNL, HA all the more so by trying to fly from both HND and NRT.
your wet dreams of any HND slots becoming a reality not only prove that you know full well why HND is the preferred airport for high value local Tokyo revenue and also that there are and will be no HND slots available for years.
And if they do become available, AA and UA's NRT JV hubs will fall apart.
Quite busy with your meltdown, I see.
Delta is on the record saying they struggle, A LOT at HND, in quite a few gateways as recently as last year. They've had multiple investor days and quarterly calls to say otherwise.
And no. HA has brand equity in HNL and TYO as well as a partner in TYO. Given Delta's fares across the board on the HNL-HND route, it's quite obvious Delta does not....
Quite busy with your meltdown, I see.
Delta is on the record saying they struggle, A LOT at HND, in quite a few gateways as recently as last year. They've had multiple investor days and quarterly calls to say otherwise.
And no. HA has brand equity in HNL and TYO as well as a partner in TYO. Given Delta's fares across the board on the HNL-HND route, it's quite obvious Delta does not. Trying to say Delta struggles on HNL-HND therefore Hawaiian must as much, if not more, only shows your ignorance of how airlines work. HA may struggle to Tokyo. It's no surprise that Japanese tourism to Hawaii isn't as strong as pre pandemic, but Delta is the carrier lacking any of the traditional route strengths on HNL-HND. No partners or hubs on either end and limited brand equity on both ends of the route. Something HA does not struggle with on either end of HNL-TYO.
And yes. I'm aware of the value of a Haneda slot. but it was your beloved airline that already gave one up after not flying the route and telling the DOT they struggle mightily to HND at other gateways. So while I appreciate your usual grasping at straws and throwing any mud you can think of at the wall to distract from the issue, your mud slinging is pretty useless and an obvious attempt at your usual misdirection from clear trends.
But I can guarantee you, I don't have "wet dreams" about Hawaiian, Alaska, or Delta flights to Haneda. But it's hardly a surprise that you do.
A filing from 2023 for TYO is only marginally relevant to today, though. Asia was slow to come back after Covid, but it has come back now. Japan to Hawaii is a huge market, just one that was slow to get going again after Covid. I doubt MSP to Tokyo is struggling that much today either, though probably not as much demand there as Hawaii to Tokyo, especially with MSP being relatively close to their...
A filing from 2023 for TYO is only marginally relevant to today, though. Asia was slow to come back after Covid, but it has come back now. Japan to Hawaii is a huge market, just one that was slow to get going again after Covid. I doubt MSP to Tokyo is struggling that much today either, though probably not as much demand there as Hawaii to Tokyo, especially with MSP being relatively close to their larger long-haul hub at DTW.
It makes sense that DL had to drop the Portland to HND route as Portland itself just isn't what it used to be and Delta has essentially eliminated any traffic focus there, but I don't see the MSP or especially HNL routes as likely to go away any time soon. Even towards the end of the NRT hub, Delta flew both a 747 and a 767 daily between NRT and HNL. ANA flies multiple A380s on the route now.
I do think it's likely that AS will get an HND slot for SEA eventually, but I doubt it will be at the expense of the DL HNL or MSP slots. It will probably just be in the next round of HND slot expansions instead. In the mean time, though, JAL could potentially serve the route and get AS feeder traffic since JAL doesn't need one of the slots for U.S. carriers and AS is in OW now.
To a certain extent but given the loads that Delta mentioned for FY23 and what we saw in early 24 for which LF data was published, MSP is almost certainly losing money and unquestionably is the worst performing mainland US - Tokyo route.
Delta’s issue there is the local O&D for MSP and Tokyo is pretty low so the flight relies on connections. Issue is that involves backtracking for the West Coast and Southwest, and...
To a certain extent but given the loads that Delta mentioned for FY23 and what we saw in early 24 for which LF data was published, MSP is almost certainly losing money and unquestionably is the worst performing mainland US - Tokyo route.
Delta’s issue there is the local O&D for MSP and Tokyo is pretty low so the flight relies on connections. Issue is that involves backtracking for the West Coast and Southwest, and competes vs Delta to HND at ATL and DTW for its bigger hubs. Add the other JV flights to NYC (+AA and UA at EWR, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, etc., most major demand centers have direct flights (with multiple options) to Tokyo.
On top of that Delta’s worse POS on the Japan side, there really isn’t a path to MSP-HND doing well frankly. At the same time, slot squatting prevents competitors from launching more profitable routes which Delta has deemed worth the cost.
Opening a Delta One lounge within the next three months hardly seems like retreating.
We can be happy for Alaska without spreading pessimism about Delta. It’s not sports.
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December 10, 2024, 9:03 am
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6 more repliesWe can also be happy for Alaska, not spread pessimism about Delta, while also acknowledging being half the size of AS in Seattle is hardly a recipe for long term success for Delta in Seattle.
What do you view as the differentiating factor for Delta in Seattle at this point?
Better network from SEA? No
Better partners? I guess that's subjective, but whether oneworld members or not, AS seems to have the...
We can also be happy for Alaska, not spread pessimism about Delta, while also acknowledging being half the size of AS in Seattle is hardly a recipe for long term success for Delta in Seattle.
What do you view as the differentiating factor for Delta in Seattle at this point?
Better network from SEA? No
Better partners? I guess that's subjective, but whether oneworld members or not, AS seems to have the objectively better partners out of SEA whether nonstop to PPT, Starlux, Singapore Airlines, or the many OW partners
Better mileage plan? lol. That one is obvious
Better soft product? Subjective again, sure. but Alaska is consistently ranked highly.
I'm curious why you think Delta can survive this when all signs point otherwise, JBS?
@MaxPower JBS?
I mean you're ignoring the very obvious one, which is better hard product.
Delta very consistently uses their A330neo product out of SEA, which is far better than the HA 2-2-2 product on their A330s.
@yoloswag, sadly I think you're wasting your time. I tried making the wide body consistency argument and he blew it off (even though I'm 100% with you on the A300-900 fleet being a good perk for SEA).
@redacted look who's touchy that he didn't get replied to immediately. Of course an all aisle access 330NEO is better than a 2-2-2 Business class? Sadly for Delta, Alaska plans to update the A330 and the HA A330s already have starlink wifi that works to TYO and ICN, something Delta can't even say about any internet connectivity TPAC, at present.
Nobody blew you off. Stop being dramatic.
It's a bit hypocritical to talk about the present, when the AS/HA A330s at present are drastically worse. They certainly have a lot going for them, with the advantage in terms of better feed, internet, etc. But let's try to be balanced in our commentary.
He goes under a different handle on a.net
Bring on those game-changing 351s and AS’s fare premium will suffer ;)
Kind of wonder if the A332 initial move reflects the time they expect the 789s to get starlink wifi. Since all the A332s have starlink already, Any loyal delta flyer knows there's no product consistency in Business class on Delta anyway and also very very limited wifi to Asia on Delta so... Put the A332s with free starlink to Asia next summer and Alaska is already ahead of Delta.
The local ads write themselves.
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Redacted Guest
December 10, 2024, 8:50 am
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MaxPower Diamond
December 10, 2024, 9:29 am
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Redacted Guest
December 10, 2024, 11:06 am
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Redacted Guest
December 10, 2024, 11:36 am
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MaxPower Diamond
December 10, 2024, 12:09 pm
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Redacted Guest
December 10, 2024, 1:25 pm
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5 more repliesThere’s great product consistency from SEA (A330-900) for AMS/CDG/LHR/HND.
What routes are you referring to?
are you truly asking why your average consumer (or a common consumer of this website) finds the Delta wide body business class product to be inconsistent?
I'll let you do your own research. You can start with an article from Lucky about two days ago.
@MaxPower, I mean from SEA. Obviously if your metric is "all of Delta wide body fleet" then the inconsistency is enormous, and I agree with you.
But this post is about SEA, and Delta's SEA international fleet is relatively consistent and has improved considerably versus even just a few years ago. It's actually improved at a better rate than SLC which continues to get the short end of the stick.
@Max, here I'll make it easier for you: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airlines/dl-dal/routes
Those SEA widebodies look fairly consistent to me. One recent -300, otherwise all neos. Not too shabby.
Glad you figured out how to use flightradar24 while ignoring Delta's entire wide body fleet.
No, Delta does not have a consistent wide body fleet in business class. Far from it. Yes, today they use 330NEOs from SEA nearly exclusively though not entirely.
But again, no average Delta flyer expects Delta to have a consistent product if they have any history flying them. And, out of SEA, Delta flyers will also be well...
Glad you figured out how to use flightradar24 while ignoring Delta's entire wide body fleet.
No, Delta does not have a consistent wide body fleet in business class. Far from it. Yes, today they use 330NEOs from SEA nearly exclusively though not entirely.
But again, no average Delta flyer expects Delta to have a consistent product if they have any history flying them. And, out of SEA, Delta flyers will also be well aware that there will be no wifi.
of Course the HA 2-2-2 product is inferior to an all aisle access, but starlink wifi will be a differentiator for HA/AS in the interim as the market is tested and the 789 is potentially brought into the route instead. And Alaska has also stated the HA 330s will get a retrofit to better compete, something Delta has not said about their current wide body fleet.
But, it doesn't change that Delta is consistently inconsistent with their wide body product across the network.
"while ignoring Delta's entire wide body fleet."
I did not ignore it. I have been referring specifically to Seattle. Obviously, Delta's widebody fleet as a whole is problematic and annoying -- I likely share the same opinion as you (and Lucky.. and most of the internet) on that point.
"no average Delta flyer expects Delta to have a consistent product if they have any history flying them."
Alas... that's my pet peeve. Things do change...
"while ignoring Delta's entire wide body fleet."
I did not ignore it. I have been referring specifically to Seattle. Obviously, Delta's widebody fleet as a whole is problematic and annoying -- I likely share the same opinion as you (and Lucky.. and most of the internet) on that point.
"no average Delta flyer expects Delta to have a consistent product if they have any history flying them."
Alas... that's my pet peeve. Things do change (and have changed) with time, yet many people on this blog continue assume Delta is primarily flying garbage 767 and old A330. The data does not support this -- it shows a *slow* shift towards A339 and A350.
It will be interesting to see how they time their flight. Right now, Alaska's flights from the DMV to SEA do not line up well with typical timing for west coast transpacs. Even so, it'll have to be a pretty good price to overcome the lack of all-aisle access.
Remember the daily United service from SEA to NRT? It was fairly easy to upgrade on.
United didnt have a hub at Seattle with over 100 domestic destinations feeding that flight. Big difference.
Remember how Tim Dunn freaked out when American Airlines planned an international Seattle gateway?
Well, we may see a repeat here.
THIS ISN’T FAIR!!!! How could anyone else be PERMITTED to fly out of SEA?
Too soon to tell what Delta would do, but it's well known that SEA is a money pit for Delta, and is subsidized by profitability elsewhere. The DL TPAC network struggles and the domestic operation set up to feed it has never been profitable. SEA is a challenging place market-dynamic wise, and AS has the upper hand when it comes to network and scale. My sense is that if AS succeeds with long haul, DL will be left with no choice but to axe the SEA hub.
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Never In Doubt Guest
December 10, 2024, 7:16 am
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ImmortalSynn Guest
December 10, 2024, 11:18 am
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1 more replyThe bat signal has been lit.
It’s only a matter of time before the OCD crusader arrives.
"but it's well known that SEA is a money pit for Delta, and is subsidized by profitability elsewhere."
Well, if you say factually dubious things like that, of course he's going to turn up with a vengeance.
Would be much more interesting to see how he reacts to actual facts, which are undeniable (like Alaska being far larger, and a more valuable brand within Seattle itself) like Ben wrote out, rather than something like this.
I wonder if they plan to tap into HKG whether from SEA or HNL and eventually European routes such as LHR.
But I'm mostly curious about the brand and fleet integration. Will they keep the buses, or plan to get rid of them the same way they eventually got rid of VXs? And what happens to the Hawaiian brand since AS will be the operating carrier? If they plan to keep some elements and touches...
I wonder if they plan to tap into HKG whether from SEA or HNL and eventually European routes such as LHR.
But I'm mostly curious about the brand and fleet integration. Will they keep the buses, or plan to get rid of them the same way they eventually got rid of VXs? And what happens to the Hawaiian brand since AS will be the operating carrier? If they plan to keep some elements and touches of Hawaiian, how will that translate into the livery and onboard experience?
Curious to see how everything plays out.
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Ben Schlappig OMAAT
December 10, 2024, 6:20 am
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Roamingredcoat Diamond
December 10, 2024, 10:16 am
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1 more reply@ Mike O. -- It seems Alaska wants to keep around Airbus jets this time around, especially since the goal is to grow, unlike with Virgin America, where it was partly about eliminating a competitor, and establishing more dominance on the West Coast.
Like you, I'm curious how this plays out in terms of passenger experience. But keep in mind that at least initially, Hawaiian will be the operating carrier, and not Alaska.
Got to also think the manufacturer mix evaluation has changed a lot since VX. Single-operator cost savings has become much less appealing against business risk of aircraft/engine groundings or supply delays recently. If you have operating critical mass to run both, you'll accept the additional costs as an operating hedge.
I wonder if they will focus on long haul flying across the Pacific or add Europe services too? 12 routes to Asia sounds like a lot. Any predictions on the other 10 routes?
@ Nikojas -- I have to imagine that Europe expansion is part of this as well. I'd think that London and Paris are a given. If Alaska Air Group starts flying 787s out of Seattle, then the airline can also go deeper into Asia.