Recently, a Delta executive revealed how the airline is selling 74% of its first class seats on domestic flights, up from 14% in 2011. I wanted to discuss that a bit in this post, because this has some major implications that us frequent flyers are struggling to come to terms with. When we consider going for elite status, are first class upgrades something we should factor in?
In this post:
Domestic first class used to be for upgraders
Going back well over a decade, first class almost seemed to be designed specifically for upgraders, with no real effort to sell the product. For example, I remember mileage running when I was in my teens, and for a first class cabin with 24 seats, it was pretty standard to see only a couple of seats sold before the upgrade window, with the remaining seats going to upgraders.
This was because first class was priced outrageously. I remember transcon first class fares regularly costing $2,500+ roundtrip, while nowadays you can find fares for less than half of that (not even adjusted for inflation). So instead of pricing it reasonably, the airline filled with first class with upgraders on cheap tickets. No wonder most major US airlines were on the brink of liquidation at one point or another.
Heck, I’m reminded of back in the day when I’d fly Northwest Airlines (which merged with Delta in 2008) as a Platinum Elite member. The airline took upgrades a step further, and guaranteed first class upgrades for Platinum Elite members. While this was marketed as a promotion, it ran from at least 2004 to 2008:
WorldPerks knows how valuable domestic first class upgrades are to our Platinum Elite members, so we will guarantee first class upgrades on Northwest Airlines domestic flights. If we are unable to honor this guarantee to a Platinum Elite, we will credit the member’s account with 1,000 bonus miles.
Now, admittedly 1,000 miles isn’t exactly a huge reward for missing an upgrade, but it’s clear the expectation that this set — if you’re a top-tier elite member, you should expect first class upgrades consistently. For what it’s worth, I don’t remember ever missing an upgrade on Northwest Airlines.
I should also mention that Northwest first class wasn’t much to get excited about — the airline only served meals on really long flights, and Northwest even had tray tables on the seat back in first class.
The quiet decline of domestic first class upgrades
In the past decade or so, airlines have gotten much better at selling first class seats. This primarily comes down to two factors:
- Domestic first class is often priced with a fair premium, making many people splurge on these seats; I often end up just buying first class when the price is reasonable and I don’t think my upgrade will clear
- Airlines have done a much better job monetizing first class upgrades, often selling upgrades during the booking process, leading up to departure, at check-in, etc.
- Airlines are holding back a lot more first class upgrade seats until closer to departure, clearly in an attempt to condition people not to expect these upgrades
As mentioned above, Delta has gone from selling 14% of first class seats in 2011, to selling 74% of first class seats in 2023. That’s of course perfectly logical, and I don’t think anyone faults an airline for trying to monetize its product.
Keep in mind that this is a trend that’s only continuing, so I imagine in the coming years the number of first class seats sold may be 80-85%. I doubt we’ll ever see it get higher than that, though, since there are some flights where there just isn’t much premium demand (like, a Saturday night flight from New York to Tampa is only ever going to have so much premium demand). So that likely means that some flights will sell 100% of first class seats, while other flights may only sell 50% of first class seats.
If you’re a top-tier Delta Diamond member, odds are that you get upgraded to first class occasionally, but nowhere close to the level that Northwest offered back in the day. Meanwhile for lower elite tiers, the situation is even more grim. What percent of the time are Delta Silver and Gold members clearing upgrades? I can’t imagine the statistics are good…
It’s time we be realistic about elite perks
Airline loyalty programs are amazing marketing machines. They don’t just drive loyalty in the form of more people booking airline tickets, but they cause people to engage with an airline in all kinds of other ways, including with credit card spending.
A large reason that many people have historically pursued elite status with airlines is for first class upgrades. Going back a decade, that was reasonable enough, since upgrades would almost always clear.
But at this point, for most elite members, upgrades are more of an occasional surprise and delight thing, rather than something that can regularly be relied on. This should get many of us to at least take a critical look at why we bother being loyal. That’s especially true when you consider that just having a co-branded airline credit card can get you most of the basic elite perks.
If you can get a first checked bag free and priority boarding, what are the incremental perks of elite status, really? Extra legroom economy seating? How much are you investing in that airline for the privilege of taking advantage of that “free” perk?
While the recently announced Delta SkyMiles changes are causing me to address this, this situation isn’t limited to Delta, as it’s true across the industry. As we see Delta explain how members can earn status going forward, what’s missing from this analysis is why they should bother being loyal, as elite benefits continue to be stripped away.
Bottom line
Airlines have gotten much better at selling first class seats over the years, and that makes perfect sense. However, with this, we’ve seen the percentage of seats filled with upgraders decrease year after year.
There’s nothing wrong with that, per se, except for the fact that airlines keep expecting more from their elite members while offering them less. Everyone should do the math on how much they’re investing in elite status, and what they’re getting in return. I think the prospect of first class upgrades keeps many of us on the hamster wheel, but if that leads to disappointment more than anything else, is it really worth it?
What’s your take on the evolution of first class upgrades over the years?
So... US airlines are catching up with the rest of the world in terms of upgrades to first class? Maybe you should also compare how "difficult" it was to become a premium frequent flier at NW compared how "easy" it is now (before the latest changes). There are just too many frequent fliers expecting to be seated in a class higher than the one they purchased.
It wasn't more difficult with NW. There was just fewer flyers back then and significantly more expensive tickets (adjust for inflation).
F cabin was also larger. I remember NW even had 16 F on its 70 seat RJ. In fact at one point, most of their mainline DC-9 A320 etc had 16 F seats. While DL, the Tim Dunn anointed airline, ahead of "second tier" legacies, had only 8 F seats.
Delta has really fallen on it's face. It is decidedly mid. Competitor airlines are better.
The buy up offers have made most first class flights available for under $75 an hour flight time. It is not a huge expense if you want to fly domestic F.
Bottom line airlines are trying to maximize revenue. Sure the price may have been higher years ago but the benefits were higher too.
Alliances, financial investment into each other carriers (lh,sr,os etc) (Dl, VS,Latam etc) , or outright purchase, antitrust immunity, protected collusion, all of this has to be unwound for competition in service to resume. Status means nothing when buying C or F, only good with IROP when in economy. Lounges by CC will replace general carrier lounges which will solely focus on C and F PAX.
Most airlines globally do not/no longer offer free upgrades to elites as a standard benefit with status. Sure - it happens from time to time for various reasons, but it's become an exception not an expectation. US airlines haven't been coy in wanting to and successfully driving the rates of paid F seats up -- be it outright or in post-purchase upgrade offers. That trend is likely to continue.
Perhaps it's time for US...
Most airlines globally do not/no longer offer free upgrades to elites as a standard benefit with status. Sure - it happens from time to time for various reasons, but it's become an exception not an expectation. US airlines haven't been coy in wanting to and successfully driving the rates of paid F seats up -- be it outright or in post-purchase upgrade offers. That trend is likely to continue.
Perhaps it's time for US airlines to do the same.
I can appreciate that the thought of losing the potential benefit altogether may sound worse than not even having the possibility of the benefit, but I also suspect that the disappointment/frustration/irritation at almost never if ever getting to enjoy the benefit is worse than simply understanding from the outset that it's not part of the bargain and let people decide for themselves whether the other guaranteed benefits are worth their loyalty.
Be it in life, work, love or loyalty programmes: manage expectations. Under-promise and over-deliver, not the other way around.
I still laugh at the Delta Lemmings when I walk through ATL (which is rare fortunately!) staring at the upgrade screens that show:
First Class Standby List: 40-45 pax
Capacity: 14
Seats Claimed: 14
Always gives me a chuckle.
I’m at a loss to understand why there aren't successful domestic cross country first class only airlines like France’s La Compagnie. Upgrades are harder and harder to obtain and flights at peak periods are quite expensive. Maybe a smaller NYC area smaller or Miami area airport to Burbank airport? The higher rate of first class seat sales just confirms my sense of the market. I think there is one. La Compagnie has just begun flight...
I’m at a loss to understand why there aren't successful domestic cross country first class only airlines like France’s La Compagnie. Upgrades are harder and harder to obtain and flights at peak periods are quite expensive. Maybe a smaller NYC area smaller or Miami area airport to Burbank airport? The higher rate of first class seat sales just confirms my sense of the market. I think there is one. La Compagnie has just begun flight from Newark to the Caribbean I believe.
United is adding first-class and business-class capacity. So, yes, there's a market. The bigger market, in my opinion, would be a carrier that brings back a respectable economy-class product with good seats and edible plated meal on mid-continental and transcontinental flights. It may also reduce lounge overcrowding if people knew they eat a decent meal on the plane.
That market doesnt exist to fill a 737 or A321 with paxs willing pay that revenue. There is a reason most new airlines are ULCC and not set up as a legacy carrier.
The big 3 have very nice transcon J service with lounge access. They are however priced substantially above domestic F to reflect that added cost.
Gosh I miss NWA. Not only were domestic First upgrades prevalent - on my trips to Asia I would score an upgrade to World Business Class roughly 50% of the time. Upper deck on the 747 was really nice. My Plat status also got Club access for me and my wife - no $50 surcharge. Oh well.
The only real value is the higher earning rates. I spend about $20k w/AA and at 11x (EXP) over the year you get an extra $110k loyalty points over the 5x. That has some value to me. Also the points are only useful if you have them all with the same airline.
I flew for Northwest Airlines in those days and remember that First Class was ALWAYS catered for a full load. Even if only one person was booked in First, the caterers put on a meal for each First Class seat, and by departure time, First was usually full. (And if not, we flight attendants, and our pilots, ate well!)
Back in the day, even before the time @Ben references, you could get a confirmed FC upgrade on DL for 2500 miles round trip and you earned miles for the upgrade. So, you came out ahead almost every time! There were no automatic upgrades and few people knew it was possible. Those of us who did, didn't talk. You got your paper cert and the travel agent took care of it. I brought our in...
Back in the day, even before the time @Ben references, you could get a confirmed FC upgrade on DL for 2500 miles round trip and you earned miles for the upgrade. So, you came out ahead almost every time! There were no automatic upgrades and few people knew it was possible. Those of us who did, didn't talk. You got your paper cert and the travel agent took care of it. I brought our in house travel agents gifts from all my travel and they were happy to do it. These were confirmed at booking and the cabin rarely filled. I basically never flew coach and never paid for first. And, oh, the confirmed international business to first upgrades. The seats sucked by current standards but the service was pretty darn good.
By the time @Ben is talking about, word was out and the airlines started maintaining upgrade lists and by the late 90s you didn't always clear. But back in those days, in the case of irrops, DL (and others) would happily send pax to other airlines. If you were upgraded on DL they'd send you to NW or other airlines in F. I remember a ticked off NW FA one day who was mad that DL had sent me over as F when I paid for economy... because she wasn't catered for a full cabin. Imagine that now. Another time, I was upgraded on a short segment and DL rebooked me on NW and NW upgraded me on the new flight - which replaced two segments. I had no status on NW but they treated me as flying in F due to the upgrade. So, my 500 mile upgrade because a 2500 mile upgrade. Good luck these days getting an airline to put you on someone else's metal now at all if it's not a codeshare.
Now that I've described the good old days... The question is, if airlines are going to sell nearly all F seats, what do they offer to keep top tier elites happy? Actual better treatment during irrops? More surprise and delight airport transfers especially when connections are at risk? Better choice benefits that have value and can be used? I do think the value proposition needs to change beyond thinning elite ranks at DL.
Blankets and pillows back in first, edible coursed meals, wine that's better than gas station wine, a meal or snack box in economy as a Delta diamond, and additional global upgrade certificates.
Tiffany (Hi Tiffany!) had a great post a few years ago about how it was beginning to make sense to skip any loyalty in any one program, especially if one is flying in paid business and first anyway.
She was way ahead of her time, but her advice was prescient.
I was just thinking about Tiffany. Please Ben, could she write a post soon
Depends on the route as well. As a silver medallion, I have been regularly upgraded on a leisure heavy route.
@Franco. What route?
As a Silver? What leisure route? Indianapolis to Atlantic City? I genuinely want to know....
As some already pointed out, elite status on Delta really helps with IROPS - and soft treatment in general.
The gap between non-elite and elite agents is widening with nbn-elites increasingly being pushed to some obscure chat bots.
This is the aspect i will miss most.
Maybe it is the kind of abuse Delta is actually looking forward to get rid of - but I really valued booking TATL/TPAC trips ~6 months in advance...
As some already pointed out, elite status on Delta really helps with IROPS - and soft treatment in general.
The gap between non-elite and elite agents is widening with nbn-elites increasingly being pushed to some obscure chat bots.
This is the aspect i will miss most.
Maybe it is the kind of abuse Delta is actually looking forward to get rid of - but I really valued booking TATL/TPAC trips ~6 months in advance and every time schedule changes (happens often!) being able to call and rebook to even better itinerary - sometimes even with fewer connections.
And agents not telling me "Delta does not offer service to Singapore"...
As recently as the mid-2010s, DL had a policy whereby medallions - even silver iirc - would be upgraded on ticketing if they purchased a Y fare. (Which of course, is often more expensive than just buying F... unless you have a stingy company travel policy... hypothetically...)
It makes zero sense to offer first class if it's primarily given for free to people who paid economy fare. In that case the airline can simply install more economy seats and lower prices which will drive more revenue than loyalty schemes.
There's a good reason why free upgrades aren't a thing outside the US (and maybe Canada). The issue is that airlines in the US don't offer other benefits that foreign airlines do, so...
It makes zero sense to offer first class if it's primarily given for free to people who paid economy fare. In that case the airline can simply install more economy seats and lower prices which will drive more revenue than loyalty schemes.
There's a good reason why free upgrades aren't a thing outside the US (and maybe Canada). The issue is that airlines in the US don't offer other benefits that foreign airlines do, so when they lose the free upgrades, there's not much else.
I've largely abandoned the status chase, and I think with the relatively low-to-moderate frequency with which I travel, the end result is that I ultimately save money and travel in nicer classes. For example, on a recent 2-hour flight, I upgraded from economy to first a few days prior to the flight for only $60. I was planning to spend $30 on a checked bag anyway, so this was like a $30 upgrade, which was...
I've largely abandoned the status chase, and I think with the relatively low-to-moderate frequency with which I travel, the end result is that I ultimately save money and travel in nicer classes. For example, on a recent 2-hour flight, I upgraded from economy to first a few days prior to the flight for only $60. I was planning to spend $30 on a checked bag anyway, so this was like a $30 upgrade, which was a no-brainer for the nicer seat, more pleasant boarding, and higher checked bag weight allowance. Honestly made me feel kind of bad for the elites who go out of their way to be loyal only for the airline to sell their potential upgrade to a schlub like me for nothing.
Airline is a business. And they must have looked at what the loyalty costs them vs what amount of $ it makes them.
The equation result must not have been favorable to frequent flyers.
This is naive. So no business ever makes bad decisions?
Around 2005, upgrades for golds on Delta were very common and upgrades for silver were not rare, just occasional.
Free domestic economy class tickets initially required 50,000 miles but, after a few years, went down to 20,000. Delta had a 10 000 mile initial sign up bonus for many years. That meant a free ticket after 10k. In 1988 or so, they had triple miles if one flew one flight Jan through Mar so it...
Around 2005, upgrades for golds on Delta were very common and upgrades for silver were not rare, just occasional.
Free domestic economy class tickets initially required 50,000 miles but, after a few years, went down to 20,000. Delta had a 10 000 mile initial sign up bonus for many years. That meant a free ticket after 10k. In 1988 or so, they had triple miles if one flew one flight Jan through Mar so it was possible to fly a round trip of late March outbound and early April inbound and get enough miles for a free domestic round trip.
I had a 95% upgrade rate on UA and AA in the 90s - why?
A non-sat stay ticket midcon or transcon was $800 min - my LA-Boston runs were $1500 nearly all the time - this is in 1994. They could afford to assume the upgrade was worth it if you had elite.
Now a transcon in economy non summer peak is what: $300 for the same non-sat stayover.
Clearly something had to give.
...I had a 95% upgrade rate on UA and AA in the 90s - why?
A non-sat stay ticket midcon or transcon was $800 min - my LA-Boston runs were $1500 nearly all the time - this is in 1994. They could afford to assume the upgrade was worth it if you had elite.
Now a transcon in economy non summer peak is what: $300 for the same non-sat stayover.
Clearly something had to give.
Now I can get a LAX-BOS run (outside of peak summer) for $1500 roundtrip on AA in a proper business class product.
Don’t forget back when those First Class seats weren’t selling, there were real meals served in Economy, the seats were big and comfortable with decent legroom and checking bags was free. You can thank low cost carriers for the poor state of Economy Class on Legacy carriers today. In today’s world, as bad as domestic First is, it’s a quantum leap over Economy.
Don’t forget back when there were real meals served in Economy, those tickets cost around as much—if not more—than a First class ticket today when accounting for inflation and buying power.
You only guarantee a comp upgrade if the cabin wasn’t full of revenue passengers. Clearly it never was or they intentionally blocked seats . There shouldn’t be an expectation of an upgrade. It may be offered subject to availability.
A little backstory is helpful.
NW along with Continental and USAirways were in the "second tier" of legacy carriers behind AA, DL and UA
All three of NW, CO and US aggressively priced including for first class.
The DL-NW merger was the first of the megamergers and DL began to quickly redefine alot of things about the industry as a result.
The same is true today.
Delta is a leader in the industry...
A little backstory is helpful.
NW along with Continental and USAirways were in the "second tier" of legacy carriers behind AA, DL and UA
All three of NW, CO and US aggressively priced including for first class.
The DL-NW merger was the first of the megamergers and DL began to quickly redefine alot of things about the industry as a result.
The same is true today.
Delta is a leader in the industry and changing how first class is accessed both from a paid fare and award or loyalty access standpoint is all part of it
Delta is a leader of nothing.
Yes 747 on those "second tier" have personal screens in the arm rest while Delta is fumbling on its L-1011.
A little backstory is helpful. Tim Dunn is a False Prophet. #Deltaggeddon
LOL. I was Platinum on NW by choice. They were not second tier. In fact, their operations (on-time statistics, as one example) were often industry leading. They had a great frequent flier program. And, yes, easy upgrades!
I'm Delta Silver Elite with a Platinum branded Amex and just got first-class upgrades on both legs of my trip from RDU to Albany on Saturday. It's not a high-demand route, so I don't expect to get an upgrade on my upcoming trip to Sacramento. I've only just started flying frequently last year, so I guess I'm not of the mind to expect much going forward, but I'll enjoy them when they're given to me.
...I'm Delta Silver Elite with a Platinum branded Amex and just got first-class upgrades on both legs of my trip from RDU to Albany on Saturday. It's not a high-demand route, so I don't expect to get an upgrade on my upcoming trip to Sacramento. I've only just started flying frequently last year, so I guess I'm not of the mind to expect much going forward, but I'll enjoy them when they're given to me.
That said, I got my platinum card just so I could get the benefits, but not sure what I'll do after the beginning of next year when most of those benefits will go away.
How times have changed.
On a recent summer Monday morning out of ATL, a Diamond is #3X on the list.
Yes at least thirty Diamonds on the upgrade list.
To be fair, it's been that way since 2019. There are always diamonds in Delta. What makes upgrade lists at hubs especially long are the number of silvers and golds. Almost anyone who signs up for Sky Miles and does a few flights a year or gets an AmEx under the old thresholds is a silver. Silver and gold have been pretty worthless statuses for at least 10 years. You're only going to get an...
To be fair, it's been that way since 2019. There are always diamonds in Delta. What makes upgrade lists at hubs especially long are the number of silvers and golds. Almost anyone who signs up for Sky Miles and does a few flights a year or gets an AmEx under the old thresholds is a silver. Silver and gold have been pretty worthless statuses for at least 10 years. You're only going to get an upgrade as a silver or gold on that random 7 a.m. Sunday flight from Fargo to Minneapolis.
Typo. There are always diamonds in Atlanta.
Here's an idea...what if DL, when the backlash comes home to roost, were to significantly reduce the cost of award tickets for elites, tiered by status level? (I know they'll never do it, but one can fantasize a bit at this point). That would actually be a reasonable and useful benefit.
@N515CR They used to have Medallion awards. They were pretty nice. That would be a reasonable perk to bring back.
Oh right! I completely forgot about those (I personally never booked one for whatever reason).
Anything to avoid clearing out an a 7-figure account for 2 roundtrip J awards ex-ATL...
Elite benefits years ago were very generous. With consolidation but competition from LCCs and ULCCs this was bound to happen. I believe within the next few years complimentary upgrades at least for the low and mid tiers are going away.
I just miss NW from the 2000. Best carrier I’ve ever been associated with, even though they had their flaws. It was a different flying experience overall back then, not the mad rat-race on a tired old system it is today.
And yea, I don’t think I’m going mileage running for status any time soon. Now I look at premium international fares for leisure travel only, and take whatever flying Grayhound (mostly AA) that will...
I just miss NW from the 2000. Best carrier I’ve ever been associated with, even though they had their flaws. It was a different flying experience overall back then, not the mad rat-race on a tired old system it is today.
And yea, I don’t think I’m going mileage running for status any time soon. Now I look at premium international fares for leisure travel only, and take whatever flying Grayhound (mostly AA) that will get me from point A to point B domestically.
I do understand that for some, it is a work thing. My own brother flies A LOT for his company, and he still gets his upgrades, even NYC-West Coast. But after spending most of the weekend flying about the country on cancellations and delayed flights due to weather (took me two days to fly IND-LGA, which somehow morphed into a three segment, two day affair) I have come to the realization that most flyers in the back of the bus are leisure travelers who don’t fly often, don’t know what they’re doing, and would probably be bewildered by the concept of a mileage run for status.
NW of the 2000s was great. Great freq flier program, reliable operations, nicer hubs to transit through. Decent meals and near-guaranteed upgrades. If they'd stayed on their own, they'd have definitely had to somehow get a bunch of new planes and hopefully upgrade their FC cabins to something more modern but it was great while it lasted. I definitely miss it.
There's more of an incentive to belong to a foreign loyalty program now. Arguably easier to get Star Alliance Gold if you're contributing miles to Turkish than United now - and mileage rewards are a lot better. If you're based out of a hub like SFO or EWR you're not ever getting upgraded anyways.
Outside to the US, mid-tier and top-tier status at least buys you lounge access.
So, in the US, what does elite status really buy you? Better IRROPS handling!
Furthermore, increasingly, better IRROPS handling boils down to higher rebooking priority. Still valuable, you're a bit higher in the pecking order. But nowadays, at least everyone can rebook using the app. There are still some kinks here and there but for the most part, you can avoid...
Outside to the US, mid-tier and top-tier status at least buys you lounge access.
So, in the US, what does elite status really buy you? Better IRROPS handling!
Furthermore, increasingly, better IRROPS handling boils down to higher rebooking priority. Still valuable, you're a bit higher in the pecking order. But nowadays, at least everyone can rebook using the app. There are still some kinks here and there but for the most part, you can avoid the 1/2 mi long line throughout the terminal if you're capable of using the app.
IMO one thing that is odd that people always seem to ignore one of the largest benefits of status - more redeemable miles (or hotel points)! Earning 5x points on $10,000 of tickets versus earning 9x, 10x or whatever on those tickets is a meaningful difference.
Please, no more people sign up for frequent flyer programs. That way none of the lounges will be over capacity and boarding with fewer “elites” will be quicker. Upgrade chances will improve greatly. Just don’t sign on the line that says sign here. Really.
Ben - I appreciate that the Delta changes have got you thinking, and writing, about a lot of this stuff. However, I do feel that your approach here may be a bit off...
You consistently are asking why flyers should be "loyal" to a certain airline. I think the first question is - how much do I need to / want to fly, and where do I need to / want to fly? Whether...
Ben - I appreciate that the Delta changes have got you thinking, and writing, about a lot of this stuff. However, I do feel that your approach here may be a bit off...
You consistently are asking why flyers should be "loyal" to a certain airline. I think the first question is - how much do I need to / want to fly, and where do I need to / want to fly? Whether to be loyal to an airline, program, etc is secondary to those concerns.
If you are flying 30-40 domestic segments for work, and your company is paying for it (or if you are expensing it on your taxes or billing it directly to a client), the question at that point is - how do I direct those flights to secure the benefits or services I want. Those could be occasional upgrades, redeemable miles, club access, etc. In that situation, earning status can be a great way to make your travel easier, even if upgrades are harder than they were in the past. And don't forget people with higher status get priority in terms of irregular operations, etc. So a frequent flier that is on the road a lot should be pursuing status in whatever program makes sense for him/her.
Now if you re someone who is mileage running, spending $200K on a credit card for status, etc, the math is different, spending on shopping portals for status, etc, then some of your analysis makes more sense.
I was a regular and continuous Northwest Customer. 2 million+miles 15 years 60 employees flying year-round.
When Delta took over the merger it began a Steady Decline in all categories of services. Including Attitude and Pleasant Behavior towards Customers.
These new changes are just the latest inevitable downward progression of Delta ( The Bigshot) airline.
It's sad because all the other Airlines in the US are usually worse. Especially American airlines.
What are you talking about? Northwest was never known for their great and exceptional customer service. Their customer service reps, check in staff, and flight attendants all had terrible attitude. That is most likely why they went under and got merged with Delta. The better service on Delta are from Delta staff members and the horrible and laughable service are from the merged Northwest staff. Only on Northwest had a representative ever cussed on the...
What are you talking about? Northwest was never known for their great and exceptional customer service. Their customer service reps, check in staff, and flight attendants all had terrible attitude. That is most likely why they went under and got merged with Delta. The better service on Delta are from Delta staff members and the horrible and laughable service are from the merged Northwest staff. Only on Northwest had a representative ever cussed on the phone to their customers.
Not my experience. Northwest developed some bad PR and stereotypes, did have lots of labor strife, but as an elite I had great experiences with them consistently.
Times have certainly changed so much. As a grad student in Atlanta back in 2010-12 period, I was what you’d call hub captive to Delta. I had an upcoming trip to SFO during the peak Thanksgiving break. I had booked a direct flight on the cheapest available ticket. A few weeks before the trip, I saw a flyer on campus where delta was advertising Free Silver Medallion Status and FYF waived offer on its AMEX...
Times have certainly changed so much. As a grad student in Atlanta back in 2010-12 period, I was what you’d call hub captive to Delta. I had an upcoming trip to SFO during the peak Thanksgiving break. I had booked a direct flight on the cheapest available ticket. A few weeks before the trip, I saw a flyer on campus where delta was advertising Free Silver Medallion Status and FYF waived offer on its AMEX Gold Delta card. I signed up for that, and courtesy of that free silver status, received a complimentary FC upgrade at gate. Simpler times!
I used to love the Northwest Airlines mileage program. In coach you got one mile for one mile flown so it was honest in that sense. On top of that 40,000 miles flown in coach would allow you to book a round trip ticket on mileage. Of course you had to book well ahead of flying but I turned my 16,000+ mile round trip flights from LAX to BKK into free flights. It also worked...
I used to love the Northwest Airlines mileage program. In coach you got one mile for one mile flown so it was honest in that sense. On top of that 40,000 miles flown in coach would allow you to book a round trip ticket on mileage. Of course you had to book well ahead of flying but I turned my 16,000+ mile round trip flights from LAX to BKK into free flights. It also worked for my wife's flights. Two and a half flights would gain a free flight. The only thing is you had to use the miles within three years so I sometimes flew earlier than expected to gain miles when tickets were on sale and have enough miles for a later free ticket. Once I started doing that, I calculated the total cost over years and was willing to pay more for Northwest tickets because I would get it back on free tickets. The merger with Delta destroyed everything and I never was happy with what Delta was offering so I started flying Asian airlines.
Sometimes in the later '80s, Continental started giving free upgrades to its frequent flyer members if they had a Y class ticket. Since I was usually booking last minute for business, I almost always had a Y class and it was interchangeable with most airlines. I would take the Continental flights even with a connection to get the 1st class seat Flying to Denver one morning, I was the only one in 1st and there...
Sometimes in the later '80s, Continental started giving free upgrades to its frequent flyer members if they had a Y class ticket. Since I was usually booking last minute for business, I almost always had a Y class and it was interchangeable with most airlines. I would take the Continental flights even with a connection to get the 1st class seat Flying to Denver one morning, I was the only one in 1st and there were three flight attendants. Returning that evening, two drinks served pre flight, another pre dinner, then wine with the meal and after they offered liqueurs with coffee.....those were the days of first class treatment.
Would like to have options for benefits as a Diamond and 2MM. For example, I would not take upgrade certificates or, if an option, waive my complimentary upgrades to first class (didn't get one this year). As an option, more visits to SkyClubs
Also, how about just serving some drinkable wine from a bottle instead of the rock gut stuff out of the can. How insulting for a "premium" airline
You didn't get a single upgrade as a Diamond? I'm surprised you stuck around.
I haven't gotten a single upgrade on United as a 1K in two years. I'm based in SFO. The fact is, if your home airport is a major hub of the airline with which you have status, you are never getting an upgrade outside of the unpublished tiers (Delta 360, UA GS, AA CK), and even then, you usually will not.
BTW, the big flaw in Delta's new program is why would anyone spend a penny on Delta after hitting the $35,000 threshold since there are no rollover dollars or rollover miles?
Agree, someone that flys to Europe 4 times a year on the company dime is not going to be a loyal customer. The road warriors traveling 140+ segments are where you get loyalty.
I agree that rollover often got me to book that extra trip on Delta in November/December versus another airline. But no other program offers rollover, so I guess it is not that critical/important.
The reality is the airlines created this problem through the creation of frequent-flyer programs in the 1980s and 1990s and with elite status tiers that came with free upgrades.
They created the expectation that top-tier elites would receive (and in some cases, like defunct Northwest, guaranteed) an upgrade. You can't blame the customer. Pretty much every top-tier elite for 30-plus years has assumed they will get upgraded if there's an empty seat.
Delta...
The reality is the airlines created this problem through the creation of frequent-flyer programs in the 1980s and 1990s and with elite status tiers that came with free upgrades.
They created the expectation that top-tier elites would receive (and in some cases, like defunct Northwest, guaranteed) an upgrade. You can't blame the customer. Pretty much every top-tier elite for 30-plus years has assumed they will get upgraded if there's an empty seat.
Delta and others started playing games with upgrades 7-8 years ago when lower-tier elites or non-status customers were offered a buy-up to first-class at check-in. The same buy-up wasn't offered to platinums or diamonds because they knew the more experienced traveler wouldn't pay. They calculated that the inexperienced traveler would buy it and then get hooked on paying for first.
At the same time starting around 2012-2014, Delta made a concerted effort to improve first and business class. This was on the heals of every Delta international business-class seat having a lay-flat seat. They had the premium Westin bedding, etc. The strategy was to offer a good domestic first product for an international business-class customer connecting onward to a domestic flight as well as to incentivize domestic customers to buy first.
Delta circa 2017 and 2018 was legitimately a premium airline worth buying first. Then came some cost-cutting in 2018 and 2019 (I remember when the warm bread disappeared) and now, the product is really bad. $7 wines in international Delta One business-class, no pillows or blankets on 5-hour domestic first-class flights, canned wine domestically, no champagne on domestic Delta One transcontinental flights, no consistent delivery of pre-departure beverages, downgraded snack boxes, etc.
As far as I'm concerned the only two U.S. airlines making an effort on their forward-cabin product is JetBlue and United.
Delta has converted a loyalty program into a rebate program. Delta's only "loyalty" is to their top 1-2% of flyers that spend $10's of thousands per year on flights and $100's of thousands if not millions on their AmEx/Delta cc's. My loyalty to Delta is gone, but I'll take the rebates. #keepdescending
When I worked for Delta in the 80’s, most of the people in first class were non-revs. Coach was better back then and there wasn’t a desperate need for revenue customers to score an upgrade. Frequent flyer programs were about redeemable miles. Over the next 20 years, credit card programs destroyed redeemable miles as a travel incentive, and elite status became the carrot to attract loyalty, primarily because of upgrades. Now that airlines have figured...
When I worked for Delta in the 80’s, most of the people in first class were non-revs. Coach was better back then and there wasn’t a desperate need for revenue customers to score an upgrade. Frequent flyer programs were about redeemable miles. Over the next 20 years, credit card programs destroyed redeemable miles as a travel incentive, and elite status became the carrot to attract loyalty, primarily because of upgrades. Now that airlines have figured out how to sell their first class cabin and upgrades have become rare, it will be interesting to see how they incentivize loyalty. They’ve burned through redeemables and upgrades as useful tools, and Delta at least has given away club access to Amex, so the European model of offering better service on the ground won’t work. Delta seems to think it can get there with a better product, but their product just isn’t as great as they think it is. Maybe they plan to roll out some tangible product improvements, like meal service in Comfort+. If they were going to do that, however, it would have made more sense to pair those announcements with the change in the elite program.
Travel used to be a better experience, but Northwest was a terrible airline.
Travel used to be better. Also, one time this bad thing happened to me while I traveled and I want to share.
Interesting to see how the market is so different in Europe. Over here, I am able to chase elite status with a status run for around 1.5K$ and I’m able to catch Skyteam Elite Plus/ Flyingblue Gold.
There are no creditcards available with free luggage or airline lounge access, so status is the only way to go. Intra-Europe upgrades never happen and are not a benefit either yet it seems there is still a healthy market to be loyal to a certain airline.
In fairness, FB is a bit of an outlier. Their XP earning chart makes it almost laughably lucrative to do status runs in Euro-J. No other program in Europe makes it so easy and I sort of have to imagine they'll nerf those earnings at some point.
And intra-Europe business class is essentially economy class with an empty seat in the middle and maybe some better food
not at KLM, there it is economy without and empty middle seat in there city hopper... so I never pay for that a premium
if you fly from Frankfurt, you have a remote gate so even no prio boarding. I only use that if it's a connected to a long haul business class ticket.
As a FB Plat, I see an intra-Europe Op Up about once a year. Of course, with a few exceptions, intra-Europe is pretty much the same seat with a blocked middle, and slightly improved food. Lounge access and priority security have been part of the loyalty/airfare class deal, whereas in the US, for historical reasons, lounge access has been decoupled, and security is its own nightmare of competing private and public interests.
In the...
As a FB Plat, I see an intra-Europe Op Up about once a year. Of course, with a few exceptions, intra-Europe is pretty much the same seat with a blocked middle, and slightly improved food. Lounge access and priority security have been part of the loyalty/airfare class deal, whereas in the US, for historical reasons, lounge access has been decoupled, and security is its own nightmare of competing private and public interests.
In the US, it certainly looks like loyalty has been captured by the credit card companies. What benefits does a frequent flyer get? Boarding in group four of twelve, instead of group six? How much is that flyer expected to pay for the perk? Meanwhile, the lounges are full of tourists with a credit card, determined to maximize their visit.
The goal of a FF program should be to drive brand loyalty by offering frequent customers relatively low-cost improvements to the service that work well with experienced travelers. I value my dedicated support line, but on the other side, the airline knows I'm not going to call for the 80% of the situations they get over at L1. Sure, I board earlier than most. I also board faster, so there's zero delay with me getting seated.
With US airlines, those fancy first class seats were largely a FF perk. Not any more. So what are they offering, and is it worth the cost?