When you think of passenger planes with two decks, the Airbus A380 and Boeing 747 probably come to mind. However, there’s one other plane in service with two passenger decks, but not in the traditional sense.
I’ve mentioned this quirky setup on the blog in passing, though on a recent transatlantic flight I decided to take some pictures of the facility, and figured it would be a fun topic to discuss.
In this post:
Lufthansa’s A340-600s have lower deck bathrooms
Lufthansa has a small fleet of Airbus A340-600s. These planes were grounded during the pandemic, and Lufthansa was planning on retiring them, but ended up bringing them back due to the pace at which international travel demand recovered.
A handful of these jets are now back in service, and are based in Munich (I recently reviewed Lufthansa’s A340-600 first class). As an avgeek, I absolutely adore the A340-600. It’s such a sexy and distinctive plane — it’s long, skinny, and has big engines. Amazingly enough, it’s the second longest passenger plane in service, after the 747-8 (yep, it’s longer than the A380 and 747-400).
From a passenger experience standpoint, this plane has one feature you won’t find on any other aircraft — there are lavatories on the lower deck, which is otherwise where the cargo hold is located.
The A340-600 has five doors on each side of the aircraft (10 total). In the middle of the economy cabin, near the fourth set of doors, you’ll see a staircase leading down a level.
This tends to catch some people off guard, since most people have never seen aircraft lavatories underneath the passenger cabin.
There’s a gate by the stairs, just to make sure people don’t accidentally fall.
Once you’re at the bottom of the staircase, you’ll find five lavatories.
These lavatories are all pretty average and unremarkable, other than the fact that they’re not on the same level as the passenger cabin.
These are the only five lavatories you’ll find in the premium economy and economy cabins, as the main deck of the plane otherwise just consists of seats and galleys. I do wonder what happens for those with mobility issues, given the lack of accessibility afforded by this setup. Can those passengers use the premium cabin lavatories, or…?
Why don’t we see this on more jets?
I’m curious if any OMAAT readers have more background on how exactly these lower level lavatories came to be. Airlines are hyper focused on maximizing cabin space, since it allows them to maximize revenue, so this is an innovative concept.
On the surface, having lavatories not be on the same level as the passenger cabin seems smart, since it allows the airline to maximize cabin space. But it’s also interesting that Lufthansa’s A340-600s are the only planes in service that have this feature.
Admittedly there aren’t many A340-600s left in service otherwise, but many aspects of the fuselage are similar on all A330 and A340 aircraft.
So I wonder how the economics of this play out:
- Is it quite expensive to install these lavatories on the lower level, which is why this hasn’t been done on most aircraft? Or are the seats that have to be removed to create the staircase also a major consideration (on the A340-600, six seats had to be removed)?
- Is the big concern the impact this has on the ability to put actual cargo in the cargo hold? Most passenger aircraft are restricted by weight rather than volume when it comes to the cargo they can carry on long haul flights
- Were these lower level lavatories an innovation from Lufthansa, was Airbus behind this, or some other company?
In an industry where airlines seem to follow one another so closely, I’m surprised that this has just been installed on these jets, and not any others.
Bottom line
Lufthansa’s A340-600s have a unique feature, whereby all of the economy bathrooms are located on the lower level, where the cargo hold is. In the middle of the economy cabin you’ll find a staircase, which leads down to an area with five lavatories.
While minor in the scheme of things, I’ve always been fascinated by this facility, and I’m curious if anyone has more background.
What do you make of Lufthansa’s special lower deck bathrooms on the A340?
I was on one of these a few years back. The only clue that something was amissed, was that during the Safety Video, there was instruction to sit on the stairs and hold the handrail for a "brace" position. Having flown on all types of aircrafts, I didn't pay much attention until I started to look for the lavatory. Walking up and down the aisle ( they were other pasengers doing exactly the same thing...
I was on one of these a few years back. The only clue that something was amissed, was that during the Safety Video, there was instruction to sit on the stairs and hold the handrail for a "brace" position. Having flown on all types of aircrafts, I didn't pay much attention until I started to look for the lavatory. Walking up and down the aisle ( they were other pasengers doing exactly the same thing ) with no luck. I finally ask a flight attendant, in her very effeicent German way, she smiled and said, " it's downstairs of course !" as if it was the most normal place for an aircraft lavatory !
One of the overlooked aspects of this setup are the crew-rest areas for long-haul flights.
Those are also located on the cargo level, accessible through a separate door.
Which is the difference to the setup on the 777-200, where the crew "rests" in a seat row.
Many A340s have bonus main landing gear in the fuselage depending on variant. That breaks up the cargo area to forward and aft when normally, it would be one long cargo area (usually separated by partitions for climate control). Because of this sizeable break between forward and aft cargo areas due to the gear, there’s spare space. That space was used for lavs and an extra galley too. There’s a lift down there too, to...
Many A340s have bonus main landing gear in the fuselage depending on variant. That breaks up the cargo area to forward and aft when normally, it would be one long cargo area (usually separated by partitions for climate control). Because of this sizeable break between forward and aft cargo areas due to the gear, there’s spare space. That space was used for lavs and an extra galley too. There’s a lift down there too, to get galley stuff upstairs. Limit of 10 down there as there’s only 10 O2 masks. A few A340s without the bonus gear also have downstairs lavs so they can have more space upstairs for extra economy seats. As for accessibility - those who can’t walk down get priority on the cabin ones although there’s usually no wait on those as everyone who can use them flock to the downstairs ones. It’s a good place to stretch your legs too. Source on why: LH flight crew on a MUC-EWR flight in 2016.
Flew on Lufthansa A380 from Munich to LAX in 2016 in coach and it also has the downstairs lavatory, thought it was cool but it did get crowded a few times. It was nice having so many available tho, thought the same thing how it wasn't that big and wondered how many older people fell down or slipped on the stairs. Flew on ANA (All Nippon) A380 in coach and they had a lavatory in...
Flew on Lufthansa A380 from Munich to LAX in 2016 in coach and it also has the downstairs lavatory, thought it was cool but it did get crowded a few times. It was nice having so many available tho, thought the same thing how it wasn't that big and wondered how many older people fell down or slipped on the stairs. Flew on ANA (All Nippon) A380 in coach and they had a lavatory in the rear which was long and though wow this is nice, there's so much room and not cramped.
I'd hoped that this meant they made larger restrooms, since they had space. But no, the same tiny ones that are found on most planes.
I absolutely adore flying from LAX to Munich on this aircraft. That lower deck is such a bonus. You can stretch for a few minutes and sometimes they leave bottles of water. Plus it eliminates that chemical odor upstairs which I hate, since I have to seat on extended legs seats, therefore close to lavatories on normal planes
Anything that involves a staircase without an elevator is bad for mobility impaired passengers. By the way, that includes pregnant women, toddlers, some children and passengers with babies/toddlers. No wonder it's not popular (also, load/cargo capacity concerns were mentioned).
History lesson: Soviet widebodies (IL-86 and IL-96) also usually had galleys below the passenger deck, as well as baggage compartments where the passengers would deposit their own bags during boarding.
Anything that involves a staircase without an elevator is bad for mobility impaired passengers. By the way, that includes pregnant women, toddlers, some children and passengers with babies/toddlers. No wonder it's not popular (also, load/cargo capacity concerns were mentioned).
History lesson: Soviet widebodies (IL-86 and IL-96) also usually had galleys below the passenger deck, as well as baggage compartments where the passengers would deposit their own bags during boarding.
if those were the only restrooms then this would be a problem. I'd be surprised if these were the only restrooms.
There is a lavatory in the end of the Economy class dedicated to handicapped passengers.
Lower deck lavatories are remarkably larger than those on the main deck on standard A340/A330 aircraft.
In the lower deck the crew rest area is also located and a galley. There was originally a water fountain with cups so that passengers could help themselves (such as on the DC-10/MD-11). This was removed in the last overhaul.
The...
There is a lavatory in the end of the Economy class dedicated to handicapped passengers.
Lower deck lavatories are remarkably larger than those on the main deck on standard A340/A330 aircraft.
In the lower deck the crew rest area is also located and a galley. There was originally a water fountain with cups so that passengers could help themselves (such as on the DC-10/MD-11). This was removed in the last overhaul.
The main downside is that carts must be moved to the main deck using an elevator and when it is inoperative service becomes extremely challenging for the cabin crew.
I’ve flown this aircraft quite a few times and I was very fortunate to have extremely nice crews who explained me all the details.
I have flown this configuration a few times and loved it everytime. A little bit of exercise midflight is obviously great but what I also found was that there was no wait for the lavs unlike the usual madness in economy. Maybe some passengers didn't know about it?
Mile high club opportunity
Would you like to join?
PM me.
A340-600 Toiletten im Unterdeck neben der Fracht, warum: Das Flugzeug ist sehr lang,hat also einen langen Frachtraum,aber... wenn nicht soviel Fracht zu transportieren ist, Toilette nach unten und dafür oben mehr Passagiere, macht doch Sinn und Profit.
I think that goes back to airbus idea of having the option to have beds for PAX and even showers on board. Also keeping in mind that Airbus does usually have crew restrooms downstairs.
I have flown this LH configuration in economy but at the time did not consider…how do seniors, people with limited mobility, or people with disabilities access the washroom down steps?
They don't. They use the washrooms in the main cabin. Look at the seat map that Ben shared above and you'll find restrooms in the main cabin.
Not all "seniors" have a problem with stairs.... In fact most don't. Don't be ageist. Those are the folks subsidizing the cheap economy fares with their deep pockets from a lifetime of work.
The A340-600 has 201.7 cubic meters of cargo space which is 50 cubic meters more than other variants of the A340. What does a carrier choose to use this for? Obviously, they could try to just book more cargo but that has other weight/economic implications that go with that option. Lufthansa chose to increase the passenger seating capacity as additional passenger revenue was expected to be a better return on investment. BTW Lufthansa did not...
The A340-600 has 201.7 cubic meters of cargo space which is 50 cubic meters more than other variants of the A340. What does a carrier choose to use this for? Obviously, they could try to just book more cargo but that has other weight/economic implications that go with that option. Lufthansa chose to increase the passenger seating capacity as additional passenger revenue was expected to be a better return on investment. BTW Lufthansa did not just order the lower-level lavatories on this repurposed cargo level deck. They also had some of the space configured for an extra galley for food and beverages. The in-flight service trolly carts are loaded on the lower level, and then a small elevator brings them up to serve passengers. Meanwhile the available cargo space is not less than other comparable aircraft.
Exactly, the galley is behind the door with the mirror next to the staircase and the elevators (I think there are two) are delivering the trolleys to the area with the small coffee icons next to row 43. There is also a crew rest next to the lower deck galley.
I have also seen this on either British Airways or (now-defunct) Alitalia, don't recall which. Also not sure what the specific aircraft type was, this was years ago...
It was common on L-1011 to have a lower galley.
Both the L1011 and DC10 had lower deck galleys
My Travel Airtours had them on their densely configured A330s in the early 2000s. That allowed them to pack the seats in on the main deck. Only thing was, my young son wanted to walk up and down the stairs all the way from Gatwick to Montego Bay!
Flew many times on Thomas Cook Airlines' 4 x A330-200s with downstairs Lavs. Originally ordered and operated by Thomas Cook's predecessor Airtours (later MyTravel) in the late 90s.
Great for stretching your legs on packed long haul charter flights. Apparently allowed about 7 extra seats even after taking into account the lost seats for the stair case.
Sadly 3 were scrapped at Manchester after Thomas Cook went bust in 2019.
1 was registered to...
Flew many times on Thomas Cook Airlines' 4 x A330-200s with downstairs Lavs. Originally ordered and operated by Thomas Cook's predecessor Airtours (later MyTravel) in the late 90s.
Great for stretching your legs on packed long haul charter flights. Apparently allowed about 7 extra seats even after taking into account the lost seats for the stair case.
Sadly 3 were scrapped at Manchester after Thomas Cook went bust in 2019.
1 was registered to Thomas Cooks Scandinavian arm, and luckily avoided the chop. It lives on with the successor company, Sunclass Airlines as OY-VKF with its downstairs lavs still in there.
This implementation is similar to some long distance busses in Asia where the onboard lavatories are downstairs. The possible smells and congestion are kept away from the passenger compartment providing a better passenger experience than being seated near the lavatories and less problems for the flight attendants trying to get from one place to another.
Every bus with a toilet I've even been on has the toilet downstairs. Not just in Asia. It's not really practical to put it on the passenger deck.
Plenty of long distance buses in the UK have toilets at the back of the bus
also in the US...
I can remember a lifetime ago (okay, at least 2 decades) flying LGW-CUN-LGW with the now defunct Airtours (UK charter airline). Their A330s (can't remember if -200 or -300) had similar lower deck lavs. I think they were accessed from around 2L&R maybe a little further back. I'm sure they also had galley stowage & a lift up to main deck for galley equipment.
As a fire requirement they had to have 1 crew...
I can remember a lifetime ago (okay, at least 2 decades) flying LGW-CUN-LGW with the now defunct Airtours (UK charter airline). Their A330s (can't remember if -200 or -300) had similar lower deck lavs. I think they were accessed from around 2L&R maybe a little further back. I'm sure they also had galley stowage & a lift up to main deck for galley equipment.
As a fire requirement they had to have 1 crew member stationed there for the duration.
The stairs would have taken out 4-6 seats, it was an ugly affair.
There was 1 economy accessible toilet on the main deck for those with mobility issues, plus at least 1 other toilet for the "premium" forward cabin.
I like the idea of people doing their business in a space separate from food prep, eating, and sleeping…
I flew in this plane, with the basement lavatories, a couple of times, What I found was that the ally between the lavatories, provided a good place for parents to walk and comfort their crying babies, without disturbing the entire passenger cabin. It was also nice that no one had to be seated right outside a restroom door, or be surrounded by the queue waiting their turn. I really do wish more planes would follow this innovative solution to restroom location.
Years ago I was supposed to take an AirBerlin flight (RIP), JFK-FRA and they ended up on strike, so the flight was replaced with a Lufthansa A340-600. This was already a huge upgrade, and the LH staff I think took a little extra satisfaction in demonstrating their superior service and equipment. Upon realizing the unique lav configuration it dawned on me... Nobody can see the lav doors, and everyone using the bathroom goes up and...
Years ago I was supposed to take an AirBerlin flight (RIP), JFK-FRA and they ended up on strike, so the flight was replaced with a Lufthansa A340-600. This was already a huge upgrade, and the LH staff I think took a little extra satisfaction in demonstrating their superior service and equipment. Upon realizing the unique lav configuration it dawned on me... Nobody can see the lav doors, and everyone using the bathroom goes up and down the same stairs... After some whispering with my partner, and arranging a certain knock pattern I headed for the slightly larger, handicapped lav (yes, the first on the right is slightly larger, despite responsible questions about it's accessibility in the first place). A few minutes later that unique knock came and my partner joined me. The realization of a long held aspiration ensued. I can only give low points for romantic ambiance, but I won't complain too much. Flying over the Irish coast will always fill me with happy memories. We timed the return to our seats with similar caution, and landed a few hours later, extremely satisfied with all aspects of our flight that day ;-)
It's not only the A340-600 that makes use of some of the cargo space.
On early models of the B747, Qantas had their galleys on a lower cargo level, as did American with it's DC-10's. QF had a full height elevator to ferry 1 F/A doing galley service and carts, with an emergency ladder egress which provided an emergency exit, if needed. It would have been surprising to First class passengers to see crew...
It's not only the A340-600 that makes use of some of the cargo space.
On early models of the B747, Qantas had their galleys on a lower cargo level, as did American with it's DC-10's. QF had a full height elevator to ferry 1 F/A doing galley service and carts, with an emergency ladder egress which provided an emergency exit, if needed. It would have been surprising to First class passengers to see crew pop up through the floor from that one, had it ever been needed. There was also a separate galley below Economy.
AA had two elevators, a full height for personnel and a half-height for carts, IIRC. Someone also mentioned below that a similar feature was also seen on the TriStar 1011's, so not entirely uncommon
I've flown MAA-SIN on an old Air India plane which had lower level lavatories--probably an A330. One of the lavs was out of order.
"Airlines are hyper focused on maximizing cabin space, since it allows them to maximize revenue, so this is an innovative concept." - As others pointed out on many long routes the airline makes much more on cargo. We have seen this to a much bigger extent during the pandemic on routes where one way had a lot of human demand but lacked it in the other direction. The airline more than made for it through cargo. Some of your ideas that you question seem simple.
Back in 85 we flew in an IL86 from Moscow to Shannon Ireland and it had a lower deck staircase. Memory suggests that it was either a kitchen or washrooms.
I just googled and a blogger suggested his flight has boarding capability through the staircase if no airbridge and was closed in flight. Ours was open.
All in all, I'm a simple passenger and find all economy class pretty awful. I'd rather stay home!
Back in 2015 Air Tahiti Nui flew the same equipment with the lower deck lavs. I remember falling down the stairs as we hit turbulence while crossing the equator in the middle of the night.
Ben, you comment that it's only on LH A346s is not accurate.
Several airlines have offered the concept, in part because they've owned/leased aircraft that had them installed, and never bothered to take them out.
Garuda Indonesia, Airtours, MyTravel, and Thomas Cook for example have all offered downstairs bathrooms, because they've all operated an A330 (G-MDBD) that had them installed since its inception, and none ever bothered to reconfigure it.
I've flown on it.
Do you recall the L1011 (TriStar) with hold gallies
Thanx for this note, Ben! It remainded me wonderfull flight from FRA to BKK maybe 10 or 11 yrs ago, when I had hot and sponanteus „meeting” with one of the passenger in this lavatory, which gave me gold card in one - you know which one - sky club. During the night flight we couldnt use the lavatory on the main deck due to the crew or pax, but walking down you are invisibled, so its like in cruise bars. Thanx Lufthansa for that!
Excellent. I’m checking them out next Tuesday on LH415. IAD MUC
There was also a galley and the crewrest down there… behind that mirror door…
There is/was an elevator for the trolleys to send them upstairs.
Aside from issues with cargo space, balancing, passengers with reduced mobility, it's just unsafe to have a staircase in an aircraft.
Unexpected turbulence can happen anytime, and if a turbulence happens when someone's walking down the stairs, it can be deadly.
Double-deckers like B747 and A380 has staircases onboard, however, the passengers seldom use them. Upper deck passengers stay in upper deck, and the main deck passengers stay in main deck. It's only...
Aside from issues with cargo space, balancing, passengers with reduced mobility, it's just unsafe to have a staircase in an aircraft.
Unexpected turbulence can happen anytime, and if a turbulence happens when someone's walking down the stairs, it can be deadly.
Double-deckers like B747 and A380 has staircases onboard, however, the passengers seldom use them. Upper deck passengers stay in upper deck, and the main deck passengers stay in main deck. It's only the crews that walk up and down the stairs, which is not the case in LH's A346.
Having worked almost exclusively on 747's (F/A) that is absolutely the case. The spiral staircases of the older 74's were not kind to crew. Or pax after a few beverages....
Some of those 747s had lounges upstairs, so passengers were going up and down (possibly not without incidents)
Good point.
Not unique at all. Airtours International had the bathrooms in the hold in their A330's back in the mid 90's.
A colleague read my comment which generates some further explanation.
Oxygen drops are required should a aircraft decompress in flight. Oxygen drops are usually associated with seating groups. One per number of seats in the seating group + one spare in a regular PAX plan.
Standing areas are rarer on aircraft, but not unheard of - galleys for example.
Galleys have oxygen drops (and spares) and the crew (who are trained on this...
A colleague read my comment which generates some further explanation.
Oxygen drops are required should a aircraft decompress in flight. Oxygen drops are usually associated with seating groups. One per number of seats in the seating group + one spare in a regular PAX plan.
Standing areas are rarer on aircraft, but not unheard of - galleys for example.
Galleys have oxygen drops (and spares) and the crew (who are trained on this point) minimize the number of occupant in the standing space to not exceed the amount of available oxygen drops.
So why can a seemingly endless line passengers be allowed to line up on the main deck waiting to use the Lavs? Each passenger has access to the spare Oxygen drop at each seating position on his left or right. You may occasionally here cabin staff as folks to sit down until the line clears - this is for oxygen drop reasons - not our comfort.
The -600 space is different. Image 20 PAX in this 5 PAX + 2 spare oxygen drop certified foyer (I'm sure we've all seen passenger lemming-like behavior where this scenario or worse would be possible). Add to this a stair as the only means of ingress and exit. So add 10 PAX standing on the stair. There isn't enough room on the ceiling to rain down enough oxygen drops to counter passenger bad behavior.
So the only solution is either human intervention (Lufthansa's traffic cop solution) or technology - something like a turnstile which regulates the number of available oxygen drops to air breathers in the limited space.
Limiting entry/exit has it's own issues even in cruise (imagine dealing with a medical emergency in the Lav foyer area). (Emergency exit issues are avoided as these Lavs are locked off below 10,000 feet.)
So the bottom line is below deck Lavs have too many certification restrictions and requirements for the additional benefits to be a common feature.
Few things that should be added from what @David has covered a significantly good amount.
The A340-500/600 performance was overstated by Airbus. A fully loaded 345/346 cannot reach the advertised range. Hence sacrificing cargo for lavatory was not as bad as it sounds.
However, the A340-600 had unanticipated engineering issues (whereas 737MAX has only software issues).
They are known to be very nose heavy. So having lavatory becomes a big no.
I've heard...
Few things that should be added from what @David has covered a significantly good amount.
The A340-500/600 performance was overstated by Airbus. A fully loaded 345/346 cannot reach the advertised range. Hence sacrificing cargo for lavatory was not as bad as it sounds.
However, the A340-600 had unanticipated engineering issues (whereas 737MAX has only software issues).
They are known to be very nose heavy. So having lavatory becomes a big no.
I've heard rumors of needing to carry dead counter weight on flights with light loads. Maybe a A340 pilot can comment on this.
Not good for mobility impaired people. They are reprimanded if they go to the business class restrooms - my experience.
I think Lufthansa rues the day they took this option. Every DLH -600 flight I have been on with this aircraft config has a Lufthansa employee at the top of the stair playing traffic guard for the entire flight. Why? There are only five oxygen drops in the foyer space outside the Five Lavs. Five full Lavs and six people waiting outside and then a decompression? Somebody is the odd man out.
The cost of...
I think Lufthansa rues the day they took this option. Every DLH -600 flight I have been on with this aircraft config has a Lufthansa employee at the top of the stair playing traffic guard for the entire flight. Why? There are only five oxygen drops in the foyer space outside the Five Lavs. Five full Lavs and six people waiting outside and then a decompression? Somebody is the odd man out.
The cost of paying extra staff to monitor traffic the entire flight (with sleep periods and breaks) must add significantly to the operating cost for this PAX config.
This configuration was originally certified with five drops, but the foyer coverage problem was discovered after-the-fact. Only human intervention solves the problem, but this is a very expensive solution.
So I don't think you will see these again unless a technological solution is found (one in, one out turn styles at the entry on aircraft?)
Lufthansa doesn’t have an employee at the top of the stairs playing traffic guard. There is no such procedure for that. As the galley is next to the stairs it’s an normal procedure that an FA is sitting there during the service free time. Also mentioned in the passenger briefing is, that only 10 people are permitted in the waiting area at the lavatories. Of course there is for everyone an oxygen mask.
One thing the 346 doesn't lack of is MTOW
I love this aircraft and the downstairs toilets enable a bit of exercise. So glad to see them back on MUC to NYC route
Prior to their folding I took a flight on Thomas Cook Airlines A330-200 which also had lower level lavs. I think the aircraft may have been leased from AirTanker so may still operate with that configuration.
I remember feeling sorry for the FA who was assigned to sit on the lower level monitoring the lavs.
These aircraft A330’s with lower deck lavs go back to Thomas Cook’s predecessor, Airtours.
https://youtu.be/SOAtn8tDkK8
There's two primary reasons why this has not been done on more aircraft:
1) Cargo space: Certain long haul routes, especially those out of Asia, are heavy in relatively high-yielding revenue cargo. Adding lavatories, especially in addition to crew rest areas on the A330/A340 on the lower deck (the crown is too small on the A330/A340 fuselage for overhead crew rests) simply takes too much revenue cargo space away. On aircraft with overhead crew rests...
There's two primary reasons why this has not been done on more aircraft:
1) Cargo space: Certain long haul routes, especially those out of Asia, are heavy in relatively high-yielding revenue cargo. Adding lavatories, especially in addition to crew rest areas on the A330/A340 on the lower deck (the crown is too small on the A330/A340 fuselage for overhead crew rests) simply takes too much revenue cargo space away. On aircraft with overhead crew rests (A350/777/787), the impact is less, but still undesirable due to the fact that most express cargo carried on passenger aircraft is relatively low density, which means cargo hold volume is typically maxed out before the aircraft runs out of payload (weight) capacity. As such, any increase in volume in the cargo hold directly increases the amount of revenue cargo that can be carried.
2) Weight/balance issues: Lower deck lavatories have historically only been used for economy cabins. As a result, the cargo space taken up by these lavatories is almost always in the rear of the aircraft. This forces the majority of the bags/revenue cargo into the front cargo hold, which when combined with the weight of modern motorized F/J seats makes the plane very nose-heavy. This requires a larger deflection of the horizontal stabilizer trim in flight, increasing drag, which on long haul flights results in a fuel-economy penalty of 1-2%, which is not insignificant.
David, this is one of the most insightful comments I've seen on the internet. Thank you for taking the time to write it.
Absolutely agree. By no means am I an aviation expert but I could understand his explanation so clearly. Thank you, David.
Your balance hypothesis does not sound very compelling. Look at the diagram above. This isn’t at the very back of the plane, but much closer to its midpoint. There is plenty of cargo space behind the staircase and lavs. Put cargo containers that are a little heavier in the back, and you’ll have a perfectly balanced aircraft. (Of course, this is what airlines do anyway, as a matter of course, every day.)
This is a great feature in reducing noise and traffic on the main deck. It works because the A340-600 is so long and airlines can’t use all that lower level space
Disability and elderly passengers can and do use main deck lavs
Pro tip: Those stairs are great for getting in a bit of cardio to counteract long hours flying to Germany from the US West Coast.
This post reminded me of the short-lived L1011s flown by PSA between LAX and SFO which had a 16 seat lower level lounge. And I believe several airlines installed lower level galleys on their planes.
and also food elevators as well, similar to a restaurant
A friend of mine who worked for a defunct airline told me about taking the elevator down to the galley to smoke weed with the flight attendants. This is from the 70's when you could smoke on planes, and drug tests weren't the norm yet.
Yes! I worked for a company that made those lower deck galleys for Lockheed.
I assume that part of the reason this hasn't been found elsewhere is because it would cost too much cargo space, but with an aircraft as long as the A340-600 maybe Lufthansa found that there was still enough cargo space. Question is why other A340-600 operators didn't feel that way, but after all there were never a ton of other A340-600 operators so maybe it just didn't occur to them (and the plane wasn't such...
I assume that part of the reason this hasn't been found elsewhere is because it would cost too much cargo space, but with an aircraft as long as the A340-600 maybe Lufthansa found that there was still enough cargo space. Question is why other A340-600 operators didn't feel that way, but after all there were never a ton of other A340-600 operators so maybe it just didn't occur to them (and the plane wasn't such a success, so perhaps having chosen to operate it was not necessarily a mark of a highly savvy management team).
Interesting question, in particular, since other operators of the A340-600 did not opt for this layout. For instance, Iberia operated a big fleet (pre-pandemic) but did not have this feature.
I think two factors need to be taken into consideration:
- Crew rests: For instance, IB had a cabin crew rest where LH has lavatories. I don’t know if LH has any crew rests installed (other than the one behind the cockpit, which is...
Interesting question, in particular, since other operators of the A340-600 did not opt for this layout. For instance, Iberia operated a big fleet (pre-pandemic) but did not have this feature.
I think two factors need to be taken into consideration:
- Crew rests: For instance, IB had a cabin crew rest where LH has lavatories. I don’t know if LH has any crew rests installed (other than the one behind the cockpit, which is for pilots).
- Cargo is always the same: For instance, on the the BOG/UIO-MAD routes, IB carries a lot of flowers, which are light weight, but need a lot of space. Possibly LH has a different mix of cargo.
I’m thinking LH has cabin crew rests on the lower level behind the full length mirror down there with the loos
I assume that the reason more airlines don't do this is because it would result in lack of cargo space. I could be wrong but I think that a big chunk of an airline's revenue comes from cargo. If that is true, then that cargo space is probably more valuable than a few extra economy seats.
I wish I took more photos. There's a loss of 6 seats plus quite a lot of aisle space below is needed for the 6 lavatories. LH puts a few snacks there, too.
The area is good for jogging in place because it doesn't disturb passengers.
A few notes:
-A340-600s do NOT have eight exits, they have ten; the third set of doors is hidden behind the winglet in the photo you posted!
-This options does not allow LH to maximize revenue; it allows them to maximize PAX numbers, at the expense of cargo. Which is a quirk I've always found odd, for an airline that moves a lot of freight!
-What do people (like my elderly parents,...
A few notes:
-A340-600s do NOT have eight exits, they have ten; the third set of doors is hidden behind the winglet in the photo you posted!
-This options does not allow LH to maximize revenue; it allows them to maximize PAX numbers, at the expense of cargo. Which is a quirk I've always found odd, for an airline that moves a lot of freight!
-What do people (like my elderly parents, for example) who cannot go up and down stairs very comfortably do, on a longhaul flight, when they need to use the loo!? If I booked my folks on this plane, they'd forget me for next year's Christmas presents!
@ Legend717 -- Whoops, thanks for the correction about the doors. Fixed!
Silly they can use the facilities on the main deck.
I think the biggest story here is that you spent time in economy!
;-)