Hi from the Lufthansa Lounge at Newark Airport! As I wrote about a few days ago, my dad and I are supposed to fly Lufthansa’s new Allegris A350 first class tonight, which is the whole point of this trip. Well, that won’t be happening as planned, at least not as intended. This has been quite the fascinating saga so far, so let me update y’all, as this is happening live…
In this post:
Houston, or Frankfurt, or Munich, we have a problem!
My dad and I are off on an adventure, and we’re supposed to fly Lufthansa’s Allegris A350 first class tonight from Newark to Munich. Long story short, we had confirmed business class tickets, and I paid $1,990 per person to upgrade us to first class. I did this for a couple of reasons:
- Due to my mom’s terminal cancer, I haven’t traveled much with my dad in recent years (I instead prioritized travel with her), so I wanted to treat him to something nice, and make up for all the trips we haven’t taken
- There was a blog angle to this, since we could try both the standard Allegris first class seat, plus the Allegris first class double suite, in the center of the cabin, which I know many OMAAT readers are mighty curious about
Not that it should matter, but just to clarify, I used Lufthansa’s instant upgrade feature, which is always available as long as the “A” fare class is available. So this wasn’t some airport upgrade confirmed just a few hours before departure.
My dad and I met up at the Lufthansa Lounge Newark this afternoon. We checked into the lounge with our first class boarding passes (I was assigned 1A, my dad was assigned 1D), and the agent even invited us to use the first class dining section.
About an hour later, I returned to the reception desk of the lounge, and asked the agent if she could print our boarding passes. She looked at her screen in a confused way, and then said “the system shows you as being waitlisted for first class.”
I figured she must just be looking at something wrong. I told her I was confirmed in first class, and showed her my mobile boarding pass. She picked up the phone, and once that phone call was complete, told me the news — my seat, 1A, was inoperable, and I wouldn’t be able to sit in it.
The other first class window seat was occupied, so she told me the other option — I could share the center suite with my dad! One of the bizarre aspects of the Allegris first class product is that there are only three first class seats, and the center suite can be shared by two people, if they so choose (but at no point are any passengers ever supposed to be forced to accept that — it’s entirely discretionary).
The center suite looks rather tight for two people. I ideally wouldn’t share it with Ford (compared to two separate first class suites), let alone my dad. So I told her that we weren’t really interested in that, essentially having us go from two suites to one suite. However, she explained that the only alternative was being downgraded to business class, and receiving a refund of the upgrade cost.
Of course it wasn’t her fault, but I asked for her to have a manager contact me, since that’s not really acceptable:
- It’s just plain bad customer service to not offer any sort of compensation when someone is involuntarily downgraded
- The European Union actually regulates what compensation passengers are entitled to under EC261, as those who are downgraded are entitled to a 75% refund; however, of course this gets a bit tricky when you upgrade to first class with cash, if you redeem miles, etc.
This is just not good customer service. If I wanted a business class seat, I wouldn’t have paid nearly $2,000 per person to upgrade us. I paid the cash upfront, and the upgrades can’t be refunded back to the original form of payment. Meanwhile if Lufthansa wants to cancel the upgrade on me, they think they can do that without any downside.
The situation went downhill, and then slightly uphill
While waiting in the lounge, I eventually got a call from a phone number from Germany, and answered. The person identified herself as working for the HON Circle line. Wow, this is Lufthansa’s top service line, surely I’m going to get great service… right? Sadly, this conversation did not go well.
At first, she explained that seat 1A was broken “due to electronic motion,” but said that it wasn’t a problem, as she could assign us seats 1D and 1E. Those two “seats” are in fact just the double suite, which simply isn’t a decent alternative, but she didn’t seem terribly understanding of why that might not be an appealing option.
As an alternative, she said one of us could be downgraded to business class, and receive either a refund of the upgrade cost ($1,990), or €2,000 cash compensation. I expressed how that didn’t seem like a very generous upgrade offer.
Her response? “It’s your opinion.” She explained that in her opinion, this offer was very fair, as I was getting back what I paid for the upgrade in the first place. What utterly awful customer service. Like, I understand if there’s nothing else she’s empowered to do, but basically telling me “it’s [my] opinion” isn’t exactly what you’d expect from the highest levels of customer service at an airline.
While I was on the phone call, the agent from the lounge came to fetch me and presumably had an update, but I explained I was on the phone with a Lufthansa representative. So the second I hung up, I went to go see her. At this point, the lounge manager, Sebastian, was there as well.
He was super professional — obviously this situation is no one’s fault, and I understand they’re all working within certain systems, and don’t have that much authority. What shocked me is that he said he was told by the HON Circle line that we had accepted the downgrade and that we were briefed on the situation, long before the phone call I had just gotten off of. This is 100% inaccurate — I had no clue about the downgrade, and hadn’t been contacted by any method that I could see.
He was super apologetic, and explained that he was ultimately limited in what he could do. Eventually the duty manager, Lloyd, also showed up. Honestly, Lloyd and Sebastian were great, unlike their HON Circle line colleague. I appreciate they were honest with me.
Lloyd understood how sharing that double suite didn’t interest us, but also explained that he was limited in terms of the authority of what he could do. Usually I don’t like to agree to something I’m not 100% happy with, but I also didn’t want to entirely leave this up to a customer relations communication after the fact, where I could see myself being in a never-ending communication loop, and not getting anywhere.
So we accepted the €2,000 compensation, and we downgraded my dad to business class. In virtually any other situation, I’d of course put my parents in the more premium cabin, but literally the reason I took this trip was to review Allegris first class. So my dad is 100% okay with it, and we’re going to be doing some nice things for him when we get to Europe. On top of that:
- My dad was booked into one of the business class suites, which at least offer a bit more space (I specifically asked for this)
- The duty manager will request with the crew that he can have the first class meals with me; after all, the food was catered for everyone, and I am in a double suite, so…
Funny enough, you guys are actually sort of getting a review of the Lufthansa Allegris double suite experience, even if that wasn’t the initial intent.
What an underwhelming customer service situation
Sebastian and Lloyd at Newark were both professional, and clearly did everything they could to help, so kudos to them. However, big picture, what an underwhelming and frustrating situation:
- You have a nearly new plane with just three first class seats, and one of them is inoperable, and that’s kind of an issue; c’mon, Lufthansa, do better!
- Lufthansa knew the seat was inoperable (after all, the plane was coming from Munich), but didn’t inform me; I only found out when I asked to have a boarding pass printed, and the agent was confused
- The lady on the HON Circle line provided horrible customer service; I understand if she’s limited in terms of what she can do, but when I expressed I wasn’t pleased with what was being offered, she became combative rather than apologetic
- I also don’t appreciate the HON Circle agent reportedly telling the Newark ground staff that I had been briefed on what happened and accepted the downgrade, when that’s just patently false
- This Allegris double suite concept is so dumb, and there’s no better example of that then basically trying to squeeze two passengers into this space when one seat is broken
- It’s disappointing that Lufthansa doesn’t give its duty managers more latitude in terms of how they can fix a situation
It’s not surprising, but as you’d expect, the level of customer service between Lufthansa Allegris first class and Air France La Premiere first class is just night and day. And that’s fair, because Air France is priced higher. But if Lufthansa wants to get out of British Airways’ league and into Air France’s league, this is a prime example of the kind of service you don’t provide.
Bottom line
Our Lufthansa Allegris first class adventure hasn’t exactly gone as planned, due to an inoperable seat. Seats break (ideally not on nearly new planes where a cabin has just three seats, but I digress), though it’s the way that airlines handle it that matters.
While the Lufthansa ground staff in Newark did what they could, the lack of proactive communication, the rude HON Circle line agent, the attempt to push us into a double suite, the misinformation about us having agreed to the downgrade, etc., all don’t exactly seem like stellar customer service.
Anyway, it is what it is. Stay tuned, because it should be an interesting night of flying, and I can’t wait to experience this long (long, long, long) awaited product!
Great article and analysis that reminds me of why I never flew Lufthansa again after their strike when I couldn't reach them (every one of their phone lines in 3 countries I tried for hours was busy) and they automatically reticketed me to Delta's underwhelming first class to a different city. And I never got any compensation. Lufthansa customer service sucks. Fly another airline!
Not feeling any sympathy toward either party.
Germany seems to be falling apart. The Berlin airport fiasco, the energy fiasco, the censorship of crime figures, the wirecard fiasco, not surprising the culture of Lufthansa has succumbed
I bet you’re a really entitled cyclist as well
I once got let in, then later kicked out of the First Class terminal in FRA and sent to the First Class lounge in the airport instead. Apparently I was only allowed to use the lounge and not the terminal for some incomprehensible reason I can't recall. While the staff was trying to be nice about it, the whole thing didn't make sense. What's the loss of letting someone you already let in, even if...
I once got let in, then later kicked out of the First Class terminal in FRA and sent to the First Class lounge in the airport instead. Apparently I was only allowed to use the lounge and not the terminal for some incomprehensible reason I can't recall. While the staff was trying to be nice about it, the whole thing didn't make sense. What's the loss of letting someone you already let in, even if by mistake, stay, and perhaps clarify the rules with the staff, or god forbid, rethink whether the rules make sense to begin with. But no, instead they come find you, a paying First Class passenger, and kick you out the lounge, arguing they should have never let you in to begin with. And this is how I remember the First Class terminal in FRA.
What exactly were the circumstances? I know of cases where the staff was wrong in such situations and LH has to send out champagne bottles per mail as an apology.
How awful! I hope the flight is mildly better than the pre-flight. How disappointing.
I'm sorry, I just can't get over the fact that you're complaining about the size of the double cabin. Unless you're massive gigantic people it certainly appears to have more than ample room to share the space very comfortably. I would share that suite over being separated from my family member in a heartbeat. Maybe you just don't like your dad that much, or are so privileged that you actually see this as an inconvenience....
I'm sorry, I just can't get over the fact that you're complaining about the size of the double cabin. Unless you're massive gigantic people it certainly appears to have more than ample room to share the space very comfortably. I would share that suite over being separated from my family member in a heartbeat. Maybe you just don't like your dad that much, or are so privileged that you actually see this as an inconvenience. Now I can't take any review you post seriously.
Others might have written this already. When a gate agent downgrades someone from First claiming the seat in "inoperable" or something to that effect, what they really mean is the seat has just been reserved for a non-rev employee or their family. Check the seat you were bumped out of during the flight.
Ben, file an EU261 claim then write about it, it’s free real estate
So I would said I will share the first class seat with my dad but I want the 2k reimbursed since we only have 1 seat in first class i
Nothing new, I’m afriad. The only premium thing in LH F is the caviar service.The rest is clearly worse than BA F, which quite low profile, but at least their employees are trying hard ...
What do you expect from a socialist country airline.
So, what's United's excuse? :P
Pathetic and stupid girly German operated airline.
When they say the seat is inoperable due to a motor issue, it's far more likely to be that when the pax sat in it went to get off on arrival before you flew home, they discovered they had lost some sort of battery powered item into the seat structure (phone, power bank, ear buds/case etc). This would have meant the seat would not be able to be adjusted in case the movement crushed the...
When they say the seat is inoperable due to a motor issue, it's far more likely to be that when the pax sat in it went to get off on arrival before you flew home, they discovered they had lost some sort of battery powered item into the seat structure (phone, power bank, ear buds/case etc). This would have meant the seat would not be able to be adjusted in case the movement crushed the item, damaged the battery and caused a fire. There probably wouldn't then have been time to dismantle the seat before the return flight so this would have been done when the plane arrives back in Germany. I'm crew, it happens all the time.
"It's your opinion."
LOL, German customer service at its best.
(I still remember standing in line at a Pan Am counter in Frankfurt in 1990, shortly after the wall fell, and the agent yelled at us to straighten the line up, grumbling something about "...in unserem neuen Deutschland...". Jawohl, Frau Kommissarin!)
I was a FA with PA then and I actually experienced this. We loathed the ground crews, by and large.
Here's the interesting part - LH did offer an alternate F seat, albeit forced shared space (unless somehow they can keep one seat open). Ben turned it down, so there is no alternative other than 1) rebook on another flight or 2) downgrade to another available seat. The HON Circle agent was direct and not warm. Ben asked for compensation, and he did receive an additional US$450 on top of refund of upgrade fee - in cash. I would call that a win.
Lufthansa owes transportation in the class which was most recently confirmed. It doesn’t matter, if upgraded or booked otherwise.
If they downgrade the passenger, they have to pay up to 75% of the going fare for that class as compensation. So just returning the money paid for the upgrade is totally insufficient and unacceptable.
And that is a rule under EC261 which applies to this flight. If you played it right, this would have become very expensive for LH.
A few points:
Using Lufthansa's logic that refunding the upgrade cost is 'fair", nothing could stop them from continuing to try to sell the seat at a higher price and then downgrading the original reservation if it sells. Now it might piss off someone to see the seat occupied, but stuff happens, right?
As is often the case, this will be more costly to Lufthansa than providing excellent service would have been. I...
A few points:
Using Lufthansa's logic that refunding the upgrade cost is 'fair", nothing could stop them from continuing to try to sell the seat at a higher price and then downgrading the original reservation if it sells. Now it might piss off someone to see the seat occupied, but stuff happens, right?
As is often the case, this will be more costly to Lufthansa than providing excellent service would have been. I for one will now strike them from the list of carriers I will use for premium cabin flights.
And finally, for those of you critical of Ben for not being able to simply get over it, when you're taking about a product that sells for 5 figures, aspires to be an elite experience and are dealing with what is purportedly their most white glove customer service team, it's preposterous to think that refunding the difference is consistent with enhancing or even maintaining the brand.
Now I understand a near consensus feeling among US readers toward Germans, after reading and commenting on topic of how German traffic controller treated ANA
pilots when their plane arrived 18s before curfew time. I also had a negative experience with a FA in business class back more than a decade ago. I will definitely avoid Lufthansa and Swiss Air in future flights. However, I have no plans to visit Europe in near future, within a decade.
Ok. You pay for an upgrade. Your seat is broken. You get your money back and you fly in the class you had originally booked. Should someone else who paid full fare get bumped because you are an “influencer”? Just telling you you lose a lot of goodwill with attitude like that. This is not how your site got successful in the first place.
@ Christian S -- Of course not. Nowhere did I suggest the other passenger should've been downgraded.
Not trying to be combative. But genuinely curious at what you would've suggested as an acceptable solution, Ben?
I know even this final resolution doesn't seem ideal.
The acceptable solution is codified into law. Ben gets downgraded, reimbursed the upgrade fee, and is additionally compensated 75% of the total price of the ticket including upgrade.
The issue is: if Ben would have cancelled his flight for whatever reasons, the amount paid would’ve been lost. Why? Because the upgrade is a contract with one party paying for it and the other party committing to transport the passenger in First.
Lufthansa should’ve come up with a creative solution in the first place and not after escalating it.
Wow a part of the community here has a chronic rotten brain cells that cannot comprehend why Ben wrote this piece. If it was fair, he will also commend the airline but the situation went into an out of consideration scenario. That was why you read this!!!
Lufthansa customer service was lacking in my experience during an interruption in our travel plans last summer. Luckily EC261 or whatever it is called came through and at least I felt somewhat eased by the cash but still, pretty cold and unfriendly service
Sadly LH HON customer service has gone down dramatically over the past few years. Even though I have HON Status. Swiss is still fine and much better than LH
LH are so not service oriented. Also this Allegris First Class that I have now flown 5 times is not that great I have to say compared to the F class of Singapore Airlines or even Emirates that are far better products. the Allegris F...
Sadly LH HON customer service has gone down dramatically over the past few years. Even though I have HON Status. Swiss is still fine and much better than LH
LH are so not service oriented. Also this Allegris First Class that I have now flown 5 times is not that great I have to say compared to the F class of Singapore Airlines or even Emirates that are far better products. the Allegris F Class LH service is excellent though. I truly hope that once Swiss Senses is rolled out they will up their game.
Perhaps pay for a first class seat. Rather then upgrade. They canceled the upgrade and gave you the refund for the upgrade. Did you expect them to downgrade a different PAX who actually paid for there first class seat? I think they made you the correct offer. If downgrades happen they look at they have to prioritize. You had the lowest priority in the cabin as it was a paid upgrade! You fail to mention...
Perhaps pay for a first class seat. Rather then upgrade. They canceled the upgrade and gave you the refund for the upgrade. Did you expect them to downgrade a different PAX who actually paid for there first class seat? I think they made you the correct offer. If downgrades happen they look at they have to prioritize. You had the lowest priority in the cabin as it was a paid upgrade! You fail to mention what in your opinon would have been the outcome you were looking for from them? I mean what else could they do other then refund you the upgrade, or offload you onto the next flight?
The upgrade was paid…
Yes and they refunded the paid upgrade... Which is what I was suggesting if it was not clear above
The point is: if Ben would’ve cancelled the flight/upgrade for whatever reasons, he would’ve been charged a penalty by Lufthansa (i.e. the upgrade cost of USD2000).
From his view, it is unfair that Lufthansa canceled the upgrade without a penalty.
Imagine, somebody at the gate would offer Lufthansa to pay USD2100 for an upgrade: in your opinion, would it be okay if Lufthansa would take the USD2100 and downgrade Ben?
It's upsetting that they considered you an upgrade, given that you probably paid close to a standard First Class fare in total and that you were ticketed into a revenue fare class (also surprising as I did not think A class was being sold on the A350s). I'm also surprised with the lack of creativity on Lufthansa's end in resolving the situation in a way that didn't leave you with a bad taste in your...
It's upsetting that they considered you an upgrade, given that you probably paid close to a standard First Class fare in total and that you were ticketed into a revenue fare class (also surprising as I did not think A class was being sold on the A350s). I'm also surprised with the lack of creativity on Lufthansa's end in resolving the situation in a way that didn't leave you with a bad taste in your mouth. They could have rebooked you on a different airline in First Class. They could have sent you to JFK. They could have given you the option to fly the next day. I understand your disappointment and would have been just as upset given the excitement leading up to trying a brand new product like Allegris.
In the end, it feels like they mostly made things right, but perhaps a little extra service recovery would have been nice (maybe free upgrade for a future flight in addition to the refund or some bonus miles).
Excited for the review!
An influencer with zero influence over the predictable outcome. Much drama. No effect.
Grow up. Suck up your first world problems. And be ashamed that your dad had to experience his drama queen kiddo.
Everyone around you was rolling their eyes in disgust, rather than cheering you on in some sort of noble fight with LH.
@ annoyed bystander -- I'm sorry, who are you?
Hi Ben,
Please file a complaint with the SÖP (on behalf of your dad).
In Germany, the "Schlichtungsstelle Reise & Verkehr e.V." (SÖP) is an independent arbitration board that handles disputes related to public passenger transport.
It’s free of charge and your experience of the process would make an interesting blog post (with a value add for your readers).
First step is to ask Lufthansa for compensation. Once that is denied, you can start a claim with SÖP.
There’s no dispute. He has to write to Lufthansa first and see what they offer. Legally he is only entitled to a refund of the paid upgrade. Normally an enforcement body will only be involved when responses from the carrier are exhausted and you reached a deadlock.
Icarus, that is the question: is it only the upgrade to be reimbursed or the upgrade plus compensation?
This is incorrect. He is entitled to up to 75% of the applicable First Class fare
Nothing to get upset over. Two out of three people kissed your ass. You got your seat. All was well with the world!
BREAKING NEWS: Lufthansa su*ks :D
They just janked to "regular" first class seats from me the other day. Then they rebooked me into Alegris, just to call me after 10 minutes to take that back as well.
As a german, i avoid them like a plague. But i had points to burn and my partner loves them. So i took a hit... to get slapped.
Hi Ben, All I want to say is, I'm very sorry about your mom.
I wonder whether the rudeness from the customer service rep stems from your not speaking German. Years ago, my wife and I were having dinner on a LH flight and she asked the flight attendant for another bread roll who replied "we only have enough for first class." I made the same request IN GERMAN to another FA and he brought it right away.
BTW, I've lived in Germany, went to a German school and worked in a company with numerous German colleagues.
1) Ben speaks German.
2) even if he wouldn’t, Lufthansa is an international airline and English is widely considered the world's primary international language.
It balance all the negative energy, I had an excellent Allegris business class flight out of Munich this week. Great crew and service, very tasty food and wine (including vintage champagne) and a superb seat. I enjoyed it very much.
I am surprised that you are surprised about LH customer service. The thing is, you are absolutely right that they could have handled this better in terms of communication, but as someone wrote on this blog long time ago:
LH believes that "customer serves the business, not vice versa". Hence such org. culture, attitude...
Somewhere in Switzerland in one company there is a slogan on the wall:
"Be nice to customers, because it...
I am surprised that you are surprised about LH customer service. The thing is, you are absolutely right that they could have handled this better in terms of communication, but as someone wrote on this blog long time ago:
LH believes that "customer serves the business, not vice versa". Hence such org. culture, attitude...
Somewhere in Switzerland in one company there is a slogan on the wall:
"Be nice to customers, because it is them who pay our wages", or something similar.
I've been their client for years...
Or as Larry David said, the customer is usually a moron and an a hole. Please don’t tell employees that you pay their salary. Yes I know about customer retention and satisfaction = revenue.
I think on the ground at the airport there’s often little they can do as here. A solution was offered however it’s true a seat malfunction on a new product is a pain, although they happen. It also depends how...
Or as Larry David said, the customer is usually a moron and an a hole. Please don’t tell employees that you pay their salary. Yes I know about customer retention and satisfaction = revenue.
I think on the ground at the airport there’s often little they can do as here. A solution was offered however it’s true a seat malfunction on a new product is a pain, although they happen. It also depends how serious as it’s possible in some cases to occupy the seat however it doesn’t recline or the IFE is kaput.
Provided the traveller is aware then it’s upto them whether to accept it or downgrade.
Well, you’ve clearly been Lufthansa-ed…
I avoid flying with them like the plague ever since they’ve lost my luggage twice in a row- on the single roundtrip via Frankfurt.
Their message about the missing luggage didn’t included any apologies; instead, it simply said “Unfortunately, your luggage has not been loaded”.
That’s why I never fly Lufthansa- gotta steer myself away from those “unfortunate” events…:)
While Lufthansa employees could do better, they all too often don’t.
Selection?
Training?
Supervision?
Big over reaction. You should have sat in business with your dad. Totally over reaction on your part. 6MM miler with AA.
@ Bruce Epstein -- There weren't seats together in business class this close to departure. So you're saying we should've sat separately in business class, or...?
Also, I'm not sure what to make of you pointing out you're a six million miler with American, other than assuming that you must put up with a lot? :p
Your first class seats would have been separated by the aisle and the movable 'doors'.
So two separate business class seats were not acceptable to you, eh? Grow up, man.
Ben was completely reasonable with expressing his displeasure professionally.
You being a 6MM with AA means nothing in this situation.
It actually says a lot.. if you are used to the low levels of service with AA then the bar is quite low lol
This happend to me on a flight from Fraknfurt to Johannesburg on the 747, we had the two seats in the first row and one was broken the same way, that it couldn't recline.
What they did was that I was in the First Class seat for dinner and then they prepared a business class seat with the First class bedding and after sleeping I went back to eat up front.
I don't understand why they couldn't have done something similar in your case.
EC261, is a 75% refund for ticketed fare in a premium cabin eg First to Business, however if you buy a day of dept upgrade or similar using cash, miles or both, then you only get a refund of that amount. This is confirmed in the regulation. How disappointing
I've never read that before, do you have a source?
He does not because he is incorrect. It is 75% of the original amount plus the upgrade amount (excluding any taxes and airport charges (but including YQ)).
No it’s not It is 75% of the “original ticketed fare”
if the ticketed fare was business and you travelled in business why would you expect a refund ? If you pay for a day of dept upgrade that’s a separate transaction which airlines offer during online check in or at the airport. Only that is refundable.
By that you’re implying he flew in economy or premium economy.
Hi Icarus,
If that is the case, paid upgrades are one-sided : Airlines could just cancel paid upgrades at any time without any financial risk while passengers would not be reimbursed in case they cancel the flight?
The word "original" does not appear in the legislation. And why would it? Passengers aren't expected to understand the arcane rules behind tickets and EMDs and the difference between paying for an upgrade vs rebooking the ticket in a higher fare. At the end of the day passengers paid a price for a product and expect to receive that product. And that's what the EU regulated.
(Also as noted below I have received the full...
The word "original" does not appear in the legislation. And why would it? Passengers aren't expected to understand the arcane rules behind tickets and EMDs and the difference between paying for an upgrade vs rebooking the ticket in a higher fare. At the end of the day passengers paid a price for a product and expect to receive that product. And that's what the EU regulated.
(Also as noted below I have received the full 75% compensation after going through arbitration.)
This happened to me on a plus points upgrade. Inoperable seat, downgraded without warning, offered no compensation at first, 800€ after I asked to speak to the station manager. I filed a claim with the söp citing EU261's 75% compensation rule, and 1 year later they sided with me and LH cut me a check for nearly $2400!
You didn’t get bad customer service, you got German customer service. Having worked with German colleagues for many years, I can say that “That is your opinion” is a rather mild expression of disagreement.
100% correct!
I was just going to say it was a perfect example of the direct manner in which Germans comport themselves. Americans often don't understand this is just the way they are and sometimes it loses something in translation.
Actually I would love to have you and your dad traveling in the center "suite" together - since this is either the use case for traveling with my mum or dad or my wife.
The center suite surely is a disaster in aviation history - LH is forcing couples to either travel seperately or in a First Class with Y-benefits ;)
When was the last time you shared a bed with your father?
A single bed!!!
I don't know what's more shocking, the idea of basically 3 seats in F, the fact seats are already inop in a new cabin, or the customer service. I've flown LH a fair few times, mostly within Europe, and have had a good experience each time but I hear a lot of horror stories from them as well. More so than pretty much any other full service Western airline.
Ben, were you “lied to” or was there a misunderstanding? You downgraded dad to business class so you could review first class. As you point out, the “situation is no one’s fault” and everything was worked by agreement. I don’t know what’s worse. LH customer service (as you describe it) or your whining.
The price difference between business class and first class is $14000 for a round trip so compensation should have been half ($7000). The right thing to do is offer a $7000 travel voucher.
@ William -- Are you referring to when the Lufthansa agent at Newark said that the HON Circle agent said that I had agreed to the downgrade and was aware of the situation long before that actually happened? Or something else?
It's underwhelming because it's Lufthansa and German service but Ben you seem to always put them on a pedestal despite being nowhere near as good as the treatment you give them.
@ vlcnc -- I'm genuinely open to feedback here, so I'm curious what I'm missing. People often say "oh, you rave about Lufthansa, blah blah blah." Do I really? Maybe I'm putting a message out there that doesn't reflect how I feel, but I tend to think that I'm really critical of the airline. Seriously, just look at the posts on the blog tagged with "Lufthansa," and let me know if I'm really putting the airline on a pedestal.
Not surprised about this. What I hear is that they are having quite some issues with the new C & F seats. The crew regularly admits that "the house is on fire". They got their concept totally wrong. I don't think the double suite is actively being sold for the use by two passengers. You can only purchase the suite for single use (at a ridiculous surcharge). With regards to the "HON hotline". This is...
Not surprised about this. What I hear is that they are having quite some issues with the new C & F seats. The crew regularly admits that "the house is on fire". They got their concept totally wrong. I don't think the double suite is actively being sold for the use by two passengers. You can only purchase the suite for single use (at a ridiculous surcharge). With regards to the "HON hotline". This is just the regular call centre ... they are discussing to reduce the number of call centers which handle HON Circle customers from 6(?) downtown 2, as this is always a hot topic in customer calls with management.
I have followed your blog for many years now, and would like to begin by expressing my sincere appreciation for your continued efforts to provide balanced, well-researched insights and updates from within the aviation industry. Your commitment to objectivity and to sharing real experiences with your readers does not go unnoticed—thank you.
That said, I read your recent piece with both admiration and concern. I commend your gracious words regarding the frontline customer service staff...
I have followed your blog for many years now, and would like to begin by expressing my sincere appreciation for your continued efforts to provide balanced, well-researched insights and updates from within the aviation industry. Your commitment to objectivity and to sharing real experiences with your readers does not go unnoticed—thank you.
That said, I read your recent piece with both admiration and concern. I commend your gracious words regarding the frontline customer service staff and your recognition of the limitations they often face. It’s a generous perspective, and one that honours their position well.
However, what I found noticeably absent was a clearer, more direct acknowledgment of Lufthansa’s systemic responsibility. The issue described is far from an isolated incident. Across all travel classes, customers are too often met with indifference, dismissiveness, or the default phrase: “I’m sorry, there’s nothing more I can do.” If that statement is genuinely true, then Lufthansa—as a company—has deliberately created a structure in which customer care is operationally constrained in favour of minimising liability, be it financial or reputational.
In such cases, the lack of transparency regarding passengers’ rights is deeply troubling. Unlike you, most customers do not know where they stand, or how to assert their entitlements. And while a few travellers may be fortunate enough to have a HON Circle representative on hand (though even that proved of limited use in this situation), the vast majority are left without any meaningful support.
What I feel is needed—and what you often so brilliantly provide—is a stronger, more critical voice holding airlines, including Lufthansa, to account. These companies generate billions in revenue, funded by us passengers, yet frequently fail to uphold their obligations when the roles are reversed.
Thank you again for your important work. I offer this reflection not in opposition, but as encouragement for the kind of courageous, forthright journalism you so often exemplify.
@ Ben -- I appreciate the feedback, and that's a fair perspective!
what is this AI generated slop?
What a joke of an airline. Still can’t get over the stupidity of 3.5 seat F cabin.
So at the end, you are getting a 360 USD compensation + a better business class seat at no cost + upgraded meal (2000 euros is 2351 USD compared to 1990 USD paid for the upgrade), it could have been worse.
I would still complain. Regardless of how you arrive into First Class, if you are confirmed into First class, your seat is worth the market price. Lufthansa charges $18,500 for a roundtrip First class ticket. They charge $4500 on the same route for business class roundtrip. That is a $14,000 price difference. Compensation should have been a $7000 future travel voucher, minimum.
Ben....you should submit a succinct follow up complaint asking for more compensation and...
I would still complain. Regardless of how you arrive into First Class, if you are confirmed into First class, your seat is worth the market price. Lufthansa charges $18,500 for a roundtrip First class ticket. They charge $4500 on the same route for business class roundtrip. That is a $14,000 price difference. Compensation should have been a $7000 future travel voucher, minimum.
Ben....you should submit a succinct follow up complaint asking for more compensation and clearly detailing how much/why you think the additional compensation is fair.
Now tell me if you buy a piece of clothing at sale price and are unhappy and return it to the store because the fit is not as advertised, will you get MSRP back? No. Tune down the entitlement. You get back what you paid.
Of course when the customer initiated a return they only get back what they pay. But imagine you bought something and then the store snatched it from your hands on the way out the door and gave you your money back. Are you happy about it? Maybe it’s “fair,” but it is terrible customer service.
LH is an european carrier. EU261 applies even if departing outside of EU. For an invol downgrade of flights >3500 km you get a 75% refund of what you paid, ie paid Business class fare + First upgrade extra. Period.
Under EU261, the 75% compensation is based on the price od the ticket, not what you actually paid since Ben redeemed airline miles. The price of a 1 way first class ticket is $15,000. So Ben should have received $11,250 in compensation.
...go get paid!
The seat is broken *already*? That’s not super impressive.
This is why I fly Japan Airlines first class instead.
How does that work flying between the US and Europe?
Why would anybody want to go to Europe over Asia?
Better quality soccer
Because the people one wishes to meet, and the places one wants to experience, are often in Europe.
To europe?
Your assumption on EU261 and mileage bookings are quite wrong, as you can sue the airline to pay out the cash value (as in going to the website of the airline and paying for the ticket) of the ticket.
Love to know who got the window seat assigned to Ben's dad and how they paid for it. Straight-up cash or did their upgrade voucher trump Ben's?
@ UncleRonnie -- Hah, well I think the downgrade from that seat happened specifically because it was 1A that was broken. If it were the seat on the other aisle that were broken, I imagine that person would've been downgraded. I believe they were also an upgrade.
Definitely claim 75% of your total ticket price with Lufthansa.
If you pay with miles, you can base the calculation on a comparable cash fare on the day of booking.
I am amazed about some of the stupid, hateful, non justified comments here.
Ben had bad luck. Happens to all of us from time to time. But it was not his loss.
He was offered his money back plus his Dad was upgraded to the Business Class Suite, worth 600€.
Plus his Dad was invited to dine in First Class.
Plus Ben was invited to the very spacious double suite, again...
I am amazed about some of the stupid, hateful, non justified comments here.
Ben had bad luck. Happens to all of us from time to time. But it was not his loss.
He was offered his money back plus his Dad was upgraded to the Business Class Suite, worth 600€.
Plus his Dad was invited to dine in First Class.
Plus Ben was invited to the very spacious double suite, again worth several hundred dollars in fees, if he wanted to book that for himself.
So one can hardly say, he was treated badly. On the contrary.
Shame on this blog and all the stupid comments which people are allowed to leave. There is currently no free speech in your country, but you think you can leave your weird and hateful comments everywhere else. What is wrong with people these days ?
@ Toto -- To be clear, in the end I think the resolution was fair(ish). But it wasn't because we were offered any of that. The business suite was one of the last two business class seats available, so that's hardly an upgrade worth 600€. Meanwhile the only reason he was able to dine with me is because I proposed it to the duty manager at Newark, due to a lack of other solutions from...
@ Toto -- To be clear, in the end I think the resolution was fair(ish). But it wasn't because we were offered any of that. The business suite was one of the last two business class seats available, so that's hardly an upgrade worth 600€. Meanwhile the only reason he was able to dine with me is because I proposed it to the duty manager at Newark, due to a lack of other solutions from Lufthansa.
That's the crux of my issue with all of this. I was lied to ("you agreed to the downgrade"), the Lufthansa customer service agent on the phone was rude to me, and they didn't propose any sort of a creative solution. Shouldn't they have been the ones to spin the positive of upgrading him to a business suite, and suggesting he could dine with me? They didn't...
I'm not sure what "weird and hateful comments" you're referring to?
Bratwurst, croissants or spaghettis?
What you don’t understand, Toto, is that the communication by Lufthansa was a total disaster, even if the outcome was okay-ish.
Your comment is not appropriate given Bens professional choice of words for this situation.
I still don't understand how they assign the center suite. The cabin can hold 4 pax right? So they could potentially sell two tickets, those two people assign the center suite and then they sell two more tickets for the window seats?
Or do they only ever sell 3 tickets?
If they sell two tickets and those people have assigned the window seats because they don't want to pay for the center suite, would the...
I still don't understand how they assign the center suite. The cabin can hold 4 pax right? So they could potentially sell two tickets, those two people assign the center suite and then they sell two more tickets for the window seats?
Or do they only ever sell 3 tickets?
If they sell two tickets and those people have assigned the window seats because they don't want to pay for the center suite, would the third person buying a ticket be assigned the center suite automatically?
I'm so confused.
They sell 3 tickets. Center suite is extra seating fee unless it's only one available.
You can also call in and request for 2 people in the center suite. I am not sure how much it costs, but somewhere between the center suite including ASR and 2 separate tickets.
Up to 2900€ for the second person.
The F cabin can hold 3.5 people, it's a very flawed design.
@ chris w -- I'll have a post specifically about that, because yeah, it's confusing.
2 of the business class seats on my flight (one of which was a bulkhead "suite" seat) were inoperable on my flight as well. This was back in April, so I stuck with a "standard" seat.
These new Allegris F and J cabins seem to be falling apart...
Sorry to read this. That's pretty terrible customer service from LH. If they treat customers in First like this, all I can say is wow, LH has a serious CS issue.
They don't discriminate based on the class of service, they're equally insensitive to all pax. Which, funnily enough, can mean that their treatment of Y passengers is not quite as bad as on some other airlines (e.g. BA) which tend to view them as a nuisance just because they're not willing to pay lots of money for a lousy service.
They indeed have a serious CS issue … CS as in Carsten Spohr, the LH group‘s CEO!
The lesson continues to be not to fly out of Newark :-)
….or on the LH group anywhere.
So I know this isn’t the point of this post, but I’m stuck on that double seat. Do you need to buy 2 first class tickets to put 2 people in there, or is the second seat half off or something? Seems objectively worse than 2 full first class seats as you’d have to climb over the other person while sleeping, etc.
Wouldn’t 2 Q suites be preferable to that? Or am I missing something?
You're missing nothing. You've got it all dialed in. It's a poorly conceived and executed product.
@ Daniel -- It makes zero sense. If two people pay for first class, you can call in and assign the double suite. Alternatively, you can assign it for around $3,000 as a solo traveler. Meanwhile if three people are booked in first class (and no one requests the double suite), someone will be assigned the center suite at no extra cost.
For the $3,000, is that to upgrade from J or is that a cost to assign *after* already paying any fees to upgrade to F?
@ S -- That's the cost to assign that seat after being confirmed in first class. But I'll have a more detailed post on that soon.
The EU downgrade compensation is never offered until after the flight is over, and you request EC261 compensation. Customer service agents in general are pretty clueless about it (probably intentionally not trained about it)... whatever compensation is offered in advance is independent of what you're entitled to under EC261.
I don’t know why people keep flying with this chickensht outfit.
I have had terrible service from Lufthansa and never again. In May 2024 flying from Tel Aviv to Tampa I was downgraded from business to premium economy. It took 3 months to get a partial refund.
In May of this year Lufthansa cancelled my return flight from Tel Aviv altogether. Then rebooked me with Aegian via Athens and Air Canada via Montreal to Tampa, again cancelled. Finally rebooked with United via Newark. No flights...
I have had terrible service from Lufthansa and never again. In May 2024 flying from Tel Aviv to Tampa I was downgraded from business to premium economy. It took 3 months to get a partial refund.
In May of this year Lufthansa cancelled my return flight from Tel Aviv altogether. Then rebooked me with Aegian via Athens and Air Canada via Montreal to Tampa, again cancelled. Finally rebooked with United via Newark. No flights to Israel so how would that work?
Eventually I flew home with El Al via Miami.
That ticket cost 3300 one way premium economy.
Lufthansa finally refunded me in late June after trying to blame all the other airlines involved but they had my money and they cancelled not me!!!
I look at this scenario from multiple angles. For the upgrade, I wonder whether this was really re-ticketed to a first class ticket, or whether this still remained a business class ticket with first-class boarding and seating. I think that matters. If the upgrade is the latter (business class ticket with first class seat), then I can understand the airline to not give much more than a refund. Overall, you did ok in my opinion....
I look at this scenario from multiple angles. For the upgrade, I wonder whether this was really re-ticketed to a first class ticket, or whether this still remained a business class ticket with first-class boarding and seating. I think that matters. If the upgrade is the latter (business class ticket with first class seat), then I can understand the airline to not give much more than a refund. Overall, you did ok in my opinion. The "love seat" in F looks like a design mistake that nobody wants to admit to. Astounding.
As to airlines seeking to squeeze out every penny from their customers, I think that's a fair argument, but then, flying is cheap by historical comparisons. Case-in-point, I remember flying Y on LH from Hamburg to Vancouver in the 1980s at about 2200 DM or 1200 Euros equivalent. That was 40+ years ago. Pretty much the same price as today, despite all source inputs, including fuel, labor, and so on having multiplied. So flying is dirt cheap today compared to the "good old days". But planes often flew only 60-70% occupied (or less). Minor note: LH would stop in Calgary, as staff were timing out and Calgary was a busy stop. So We'd get a new crew for that last hour to YVR, on an almost empty hop to YVR. More crew than passengers.
Now for everyone who thinks I'm a shill for the airlines, let me also say that my recent experiences with LH are similar as described--bad. Today's LH appears to operate under the logic "how can we make our customer hate us more", a logic which is executed at every possible customer interaction opportunity and without discrimination. It's a miracle to me that LH can still be operating with this continued attitude. If I have a choice, I book another Star alliance partner.
From a passenger perspective it makes 0 practical difference. It's a confirmed change into F.
I'm sure a European court would have the same view.
To follow this blog I suppose a reader is supposed to know who or what or why the "HON Circle Line" is. To me, HON is a company that makes filing cabinets. You see their stuff in many offices. And "Circle Line" is a popular attraction for Manhattan tourists. I'm not sure they sell tickets that include passage in a filing cabinet, though. But then, I'm just an ignorant reader.
HON Circle is the top tier status at LH, its different from regular FF status (FF/Senator) in that you earn HON points only on paid J/F tickets and you need ~15 paid J tickets a year to qualify. Its like the equivalent of UA GS or AA CK, except that the requirements are published.
i mean yes newbies are always welcome but if you get hot and bothered by not knowing basic aspects of the game, have enough humility to acknowledge that you're not yet a player
I assume by Manhattan, you mean Manhattan, Kansas, home of the Wizard of Oz Museum. So I’m not sure what you are talking about when you say there is a Circle Line attraction, and I refuse to learn anything myself or use context cues, so please be more clear in your writing and spell out everything in painstaking detail. But then, I'm just an ignorant reader.
I understand the frustration , but I would like to know what kind of latitude of power would you have liked the managers to do ( which I’m guessing they are contractors) ? Was it 2000 eu compensation plus a refund or just the 2000 euros ?
The concepti of having two seats is dumb. They should have just three equal seats .
sounds like Lucky felt the managers were great! the issue is presumably that the airline either did not empower or did not train the employees on appropriate customer recovery options in significant service failure scenarios like this one
i mean to be debated by an HON Circle support agent is insane
It is very typical of LH, the reason I stopped flying them for more than a decade. Imagine how they will handle the case, especially their tone if the passenger was not white and/or male. Ben doesn't experience it that much but I can tell you LH staff and FRA and MUC staff are just notoriously cold, always looking down on you as if our existence offends them...
On a compensation note, the rule...
It is very typical of LH, the reason I stopped flying them for more than a decade. Imagine how they will handle the case, especially their tone if the passenger was not white and/or male. Ben doesn't experience it that much but I can tell you LH staff and FRA and MUC staff are just notoriously cold, always looking down on you as if our existence offends them...
On a compensation note, the rule says you get 75% of the fare, so how does it work? 75% of 2000usd you paid? Then it is really unfair rule wise
100%. I was once called a "silly boy" by a Lufthansa customer service agent trying to help me in Frankfurt. I am a grown, colored man, and based on the tone, it certainly felt like I was being treated like an idiot who doesn't know anything in life.
I doubt they were being racist here - they seem to be equally nasty to everyone!
What? White men are the most persecuted people on Earth these days!!
Ben, just from a nerd pov, can you note which convos are in German and which are in English?
Looking forward to the review, even if it is split cabin!!
This is one of the reasons I always thought the whole 3-ish seat FC plan was dumb. Firstly the market for their "double" (not really) seat is basically nil, few people would even want that 1.5 seat when traveling with a SO given how tight it is for 2 people plus the fact there's only one screen and you cannot have one person sleep while the other is awake...I just can't see how anyone thought...
This is one of the reasons I always thought the whole 3-ish seat FC plan was dumb. Firstly the market for their "double" (not really) seat is basically nil, few people would even want that 1.5 seat when traveling with a SO given how tight it is for 2 people plus the fact there's only one screen and you cannot have one person sleep while the other is awake...I just can't see how anyone thought that was a good idea. Even worse they had like 7 years from announcement to implementation and in all that time no one a LH rubbed 2 braincells together and recognized how dumb this was.
Was flying the next day an option?
Can you still pursue EU261 compensation since it was involuntary - or is 2,000 euros
Looks like part one of your review is complete! ...Sadly. Have a safe flight.
Hahaha! So charmingly German: “It’s your opinion.” Very on brand for LH!
Glad it got resolved somewhat reasonably?
Safe travels!
if i lived in germany every penny would go on US-based amex cards and the number of chargebacks would fill literary volumes
Did you ask if you could be booked the next day? Or maybe out of JFK? Bottom line - you are still in F, your father took the downgrade to business - which isn't that bad (not a 15 hour flight). You got your money back. You did not want to sit with you Dad - so you would have been separated anyway - on an overnight flight where you will try to sleep most of the flight. You Dad doesn't do your reviews.
The irony of all of this is killing me!
This really emphasizes the absurdity of this three seat F cabin. One suite inoperable and suddenly you lose 1/3 of the cabin? Imagine how many more stories there will be like this, especially given how incompetent LH has been with the rollout thus far? They should've installed six to allow themselves slack for IRROPs. And the horrendous (!!!) way that their agents handled this tells me they really haven't thought ANY of this out.
Why...
This really emphasizes the absurdity of this three seat F cabin. One suite inoperable and suddenly you lose 1/3 of the cabin? Imagine how many more stories there will be like this, especially given how incompetent LH has been with the rollout thus far? They should've installed six to allow themselves slack for IRROPs. And the horrendous (!!!) way that their agents handled this tells me they really haven't thought ANY of this out.
Why do these people have a reputation for efficiency and precision again? Efficiency and precision in screwing over their passengers?
To be fair to them, they ARE doing a decent job of getting the airline transportation basics right- they've got lots of flights to lots of destinations, they're mostly on time and, even though I l fly with them a few times every year, the last time they failed to deliver my luggage after the flight was before the turn of the century. They usually even manage to make priority bag tags work and are...
To be fair to them, they ARE doing a decent job of getting the airline transportation basics right- they've got lots of flights to lots of destinations, they're mostly on time and, even though I l fly with them a few times every year, the last time they failed to deliver my luggage after the flight was before the turn of the century. They usually even manage to make priority bag tags work and are meticulous about ensuring that the published frequent flyer benefits are adhered to (e.g. loungedragons at remote outstations with a LH contract will have always been briefed on the detail of *A rules and won't be surprised if you turn up with an 'unusual' *G card from Copa or whatever).
The above still doesn't mean that flying with Lufthansa is a pleasant experience - it usually isn't...and when anything goes wrong, it all unravels very fast.
I feel like this the issue of the stingy downgrade wouldn't have even come up if they didn't have this ridiculous center suite concept. I'm willing to cut LH a lot of slack for its affordable legacy F product and incredible soft product, but when that finally comes to an end then (as a UK resident) I won't travel with them again. When the completion is CX/NH...
For comparison, when I was downgraded by Virgin...
I feel like this the issue of the stingy downgrade wouldn't have even come up if they didn't have this ridiculous center suite concept. I'm willing to cut LH a lot of slack for its affordable legacy F product and incredible soft product, but when that finally comes to an end then (as a UK resident) I won't travel with them again. When the completion is CX/NH...
For comparison, when I was downgraded by Virgin Atlantic once, they actually seemed suitably embarrassed and gave me a return upper class ticket to anywhere on their network.
So Ben, for us readers’ info, what other compensation was in your mind? This way we can have a realistic expectation of what is reasonable next time if something similar happen. I thought the gesture of giving your dad the business suite for free was great. So I don’t know what else could i have asked for in that situation. I wanna push for more also of course but only pro like u know what is realistic and reason. So I wanna know. Thx
They could have refunded both of the paid upgrades (as a goodwill gesture for splitting them up) while leaving one of them in the available F suite complimentary.
Ben have a great trip. You’re a good son I’m sure your dad is proud of you and is sleeping in a 45 degree reclined position at the moment.
No, it’s the new allegris business suite. It’s practically a first class product also. Better than their current 340 747 380 first class seats. So they r lie flat
@Chris, Ben's dad doesn't enjoy reclining, hence the comment above.
Based on previous trip reports with family, his dad is currently very comfortable at a 90° angle.
i think we all know on which airline this wouldn't happen
guten Flug!
I am ignorant. Which airline are you referring to?
To he honest, paying $1990 and then getting Euro 2000 in return means you got what you originally booked (biz class) plus about $300 extra. While it's an inconvenience it isn't a loss - you actually made money over the original biz class booking.
I once had 4 confirmed upgrades on United from economy to Premium Economy. The day off the trip, United swapped for a different airplane which had no premium economy. All...
To he honest, paying $1990 and then getting Euro 2000 in return means you got what you originally booked (biz class) plus about $300 extra. While it's an inconvenience it isn't a loss - you actually made money over the original biz class booking.
I once had 4 confirmed upgrades on United from economy to Premium Economy. The day off the trip, United swapped for a different airplane which had no premium economy. All I got was an automated phone call saying sorry for the inconvenience. And then I had to spend time on the phone to get my plus points back. Thanks United! Compared to that, the LH service provided was downright amazing.
Another time I was upgraded from domestic economy to first class (and so was my wife) but then some seats for paying customers were inoperable and they got my seat and I got kicked back to economy and now lost my original nice seat in economy. My wife stayed in first class and overheard the following conversation between flight attendants. One said - why don't you bring that guy sone of the cookies since he was downgraded to economy (they were talking about me) - and the other said - nah, he was just on an upgrade. So yeah, this was a complimentary upgrade, but if you ise plus points, that's a "currency" you work for.
By this point, who is surprised by Lufthansa's customer service? It's sort of like renting a car from Hertz: you deserve it if you're arrested and Bubba your cellmate tells you to grab your ankles. And, who is surprised that an essentially brand new Allegris suite is broken?
And once again I state: The rudest airline employees I have ever had the misfortune of running into were:
Lufthansa and Swiss employees.
back in the day, LH compensation for a downgrade from F was 4000 EUR + the difference in fare. How far they have fallen.
So you paid $2k to upgrade and in return you got back €2k. So that's about $350 of compensation on top of your $2k refund. Seems like a pretty poor outcome.
This is classic Lufthansa. I wouldn't be surprised if Carsten spent his evenings stabbing voodoo dolls of their customers, that's how much the airline seemingly hate them.
Despite being their theoretical hub captive (VIE), I've been boycotting them for 20 months now and I don't regret it, not even when it means two extra transfers on an intra-EU trip.
You just got a normal Lufthansa experience. That should teach you to not ever book with them again.
Voodoo dolls! Love the analogy :D
Ben told his dad to go back and sit with the peasants in business class
Calculating the value of the 75% is not a problem- you claim for whatever the airline is selling the fare for in the open market. There is no downside to this- the airline controls the pricing of its seats and can't convincingly claim that they are worth less than what they're being sold for, particularly if you point out that you're only choosing that figure to avoid having to claim for the cost of getting...
Calculating the value of the 75% is not a problem- you claim for whatever the airline is selling the fare for in the open market. There is no downside to this- the airline controls the pricing of its seats and can't convincingly claim that they are worth less than what they're being sold for, particularly if you point out that you're only choosing that figure to avoid having to claim for the cost of getting to cross the Atlantic in 'comparable transport conditions' on an AF plane. Of course, I am not a lawyer and what is likely to work in my jurisdiction might be less likely to work in others, DYOR etc.
It's 75% of the amount you actually paid, not 75% of a hypothetical fare you didn't pay.
In this situation I'd have expected 75% of the upgrade fee, YQ, and miles/points paid.
The calculation would be somewhat more complicated if it were a partner issued award, or if some kind of 2-4-1 certificate/ instrument was used, but there are still methods to calculate a fair value.
It's 100% of the upgrade fee and 75% of the remainder according to the statute.
You're both correct, but that doesn't mean that I am wrong either! My point is that using partner airline miles, upgrade vouchers or whatever 'alternative' means of obtaining a confirmed reservation isn't a reason for not receiving the compensation due. If the airline were to be unwilling/unable to process a refund on the basis of whatever method was used for payment, establishing the monetary value of the ticket wouldn't be rocket science.
We actually flew LH F MUC IAD 3 days ago and when I was passing through the little additional screening near the gate for US flights, the agent told me to see the actual gate agent regarding remarks in my PNR. The gate agent then informed me the electric privacy screen for my seat 1K was inoperative. I actually thought it was a nice gesture. The cabin was full but I would not have switched...
We actually flew LH F MUC IAD 3 days ago and when I was passing through the little additional screening near the gate for US flights, the agent told me to see the actual gate agent regarding remarks in my PNR. The gate agent then informed me the electric privacy screen for my seat 1K was inoperative. I actually thought it was a nice gesture. The cabin was full but I would not have switched out of my window seat regardless. It was a day flight and I did not miss the privacy screen!
As an aside, the newly refurbished F lounge at MUC is NOT impressive. We had a quick drink and moved to the satellite lounge.
Not that the satellite lounge is that impressive either
You absolutely are 100% correct! After reading reviews of the refurbished lounge online, I kind of was expecting more. It basically just looks new….no real innovation. I just like the satellite lounge for all the windows. We basically decided all future LH F bookings will be thorough FRA. This trip, I simply wanted to add the LH 380 to my “collection”. Still prefer the 748i. I did pick up my 1st sparkly translucent duck!
We actually flew LH F MUC IAD 3 days ago and when I was passing through the little additional screening near the gate for US flights, the agent told me to see the actual gate agent regarding remarks in my PNR. The gate agent then informed me the electric privacy screen for my seat 1K was inoperative. I actually thought it was a nice gesture. The cabin was full but I would not have switched...
We actually flew LH F MUC IAD 3 days ago and when I was passing through the little additional screening near the gate for US flights, the agent told me to see the actual gate agent regarding remarks in my PNR. The gate agent then informed me the electric privacy screen for my seat 1K was inoperative. I actually thought it was a nice gesture. The cabin was full but I would not have switched out of my window seat regardless. It was a day flight and I did not miss the privacy screen!
Not surprised customer service failures especially in the travel industry are at all time highs while they extract every dollar for below ave. experience. 3 seats in first that go for high prices and they can't trouble themselves to fix it makes you wonder if they care. Ticket being points then cash probably made them not value you unfortunately if it was all cash would the treatment be the same. I will continue reading next...
Not surprised customer service failures especially in the travel industry are at all time highs while they extract every dollar for below ave. experience. 3 seats in first that go for high prices and they can't trouble themselves to fix it makes you wonder if they care. Ticket being points then cash probably made them not value you unfortunately if it was all cash would the treatment be the same. I will continue reading next posts to see if you figure out how much your seat mate in 1st paid for his seat.
This is classic LH. They lie and deceive and it almost intentionally feels like they want to make the customer experience worse when things go awry. I was on a flight IAD-MUC a couple of years ago that they canceled *10 minutes* before boarding due to snowy conditions in Munich. It had been snowing for three days in Germany; they knew what the conditions were and what the forecasts would be—the wx was actually improving....
This is classic LH. They lie and deceive and it almost intentionally feels like they want to make the customer experience worse when things go awry. I was on a flight IAD-MUC a couple of years ago that they canceled *10 minutes* before boarding due to snowy conditions in Munich. It had been snowing for three days in Germany; they knew what the conditions were and what the forecasts would be—the wx was actually improving. But they chose to make an operational decision to fly the inbound aircraft back to MUC that night Emily, ruining hundreds of pax’s evenings after they all schlepped out to Dulles and sowing chaos with everyone’s travel plans. And the worst part is, in the LH lounge, when they saw pax approaching the desk, they suddenly announced that there was nothing they could do and everyone must go to the gate and seek help there. A complete lie. I just sat there and waited while browsing seats.aero until the crowd left. Then I approached and fed the lounge agent exact flight numbers to rebook me on UA the next day. He said something like “you are smart to wait until they all leave”. Maybe so but just appalling customer service and I felt bad for all my fellow passengers. Not in a hurry to ever fly them again.
I might be missing something, but if the upgrade cost was $2k, and the seat isn't working and they're telling you that they'll be refunding you the money you paid to upgrade, what is the problem? Did you want more than what you paid for as a compensation?
@ Tevi -- When airlines downgrade people, it's standard to offer compensation beyond just a refund. For that matter, European Union regulations even dictate this.
Thank you, I learned something new today. If it wasn't for you, I would've totally accepted the refund if that happened to me.
No, Ben. You are not legally entitled to 75% refund under EU law.
Lawyer in EU competition legislation here.
EU261/2004 /10 only applies to the original booking class. Paying in advance for an upgrade, even at the time of booking, is not considered « original booking » as per case law. You would have been able to claim 75% if you booked directly in First, not for a business with immediate upgrade to First. As mentioned...
No, Ben. You are not legally entitled to 75% refund under EU law.
Lawyer in EU competition legislation here.
EU261/2004 /10 only applies to the original booking class. Paying in advance for an upgrade, even at the time of booking, is not considered « original booking » as per case law. You would have been able to claim 75% if you booked directly in First, not for a business with immediate upgrade to First. As mentioned in the name, that was an upgrade rather than an original booking directly in first - even if done while booking.
The case law actually ruled that to avoid having people who paid cash tickets in eco/premium eco and then upgraded at the time of booking to business with miles getting 75% back of the cash fare, upgrades at the time of booking aren’t considered « originally booked class » as defined as a condition for article 10 of 261/2004 to apply.
So you are only legally entitled to a refund of the service that wasn’t delivered - ie the upgrade from business to first, in total. No additional compensation are legally required.
However, despite not being eligible to a 75% refund from a legal perspective, I can’t understand the customer service deciding not to make a gesture (especially as you’re a famous travel blogger).
@Lucky:
The problem seems to be that you purchased business class tickets prior to upgrading. From LHs perspective it seems you communicated that you want to fly business but would take a discounted first class ticket if available. That makes you not a first class passenger, but a business class passenger. When your original seats were unserviceable, LH provided an option to you to remain in First (unattractive, I admit) and let you use...
@Lucky:
The problem seems to be that you purchased business class tickets prior to upgrading. From LHs perspective it seems you communicated that you want to fly business but would take a discounted first class ticket if available. That makes you not a first class passenger, but a business class passenger. When your original seats were unserviceable, LH provided an option to you to remain in First (unattractive, I admit) and let you use the First Class Lounge, while waitlisting you for the other F seat in case the passenger would have been a no show. They also offered to refund you for the upgrade cost in full and to fly you in your original class of booking. In my view, they did what was reasonable in that situation.
Also, on LHs website: "Services and entitlements in the event of flight disruptions: In the case of disruptions to flights from two days before departure, the rebooking will be made within the original travel class on the original ticket’s fare conditions. The passenger will receive the full reimbursement of the upgrade payment. In the case of disruptions to flights that arise both one day before departure and on the actual day of departure, the passenger will be rebooked with the full services and entitlements of the new travel class (including confirmed and paid-for upgrades)." Link: https://www.lufthansa.com/de/en/upgrade-info?
They offered to carry you in LH first class, which you rejected due to an unattractive seat (note they say "travel class" not "seat"). So there's really no reason for EC261 compensation on LH's part in my admittedly limited understanding of the situation. And no, I'm not affiliated with LH in any way.
As a matter of principle, business entities should go above and beyond a refund when they cannot provide the product they promised.
This used to be the standard. But somewhere along the way we were trained to be ecstatic if we just get our money back.
that stinks
You think so ? Like telling a restaurant server you had an awful day at the country club today because of the heat.
D3SWI33 - why don't you take your populist rant elsewhere?
it's nothing like that and you're an idiot
@Jon
No , That’s exactly what this is at face value other than Ben being upset and inconvenienced. You’re a worthless human being.
You got "bonvoyed" by the Lufthansa Group (which owns SWISS as well - refer to your recent SWISS post "Invited Into SWISS First Lounge Geneva, Then Kicked Out…"). I never desire to fly any of their airlines in the group. Poor customer service and experience.
lol so true. Last October we flew SIN-ZRH on SQ and then ZRH-YUL on LX all in J. The boarding for for the LX flight was chaotic and we went to the priority lane and the women just said : excuse me sir, are you flying business (in an accusatory tone and implying we weren’t in the right lane even though we were ). I told my wife welcome to the Lufthansa group..
Chat GPT for the win!
@Ben, I hope your dad could share his thoughts about this ordeal. I miss his candid contributions.
@ hbilbao -- Worry not, he is documenting the trip, and will be faxing in his trip report!
This is (fax) music to my ears!
@Ben Schlappig, your dad faxing in his trip report is beautiful.
The only thing that becomes clearer and clearer over time is that the double suite concept is utterly dumb.
So staggeringly dumb - they essentially lost 25% of their F capacity. Not that Carsten the imbecile would ever admit it was a mistake
The whole 3 seat first class cabin is such a stupid and impractical idea, as illustrated here. I wonder how long until they go back to at least 4 seats and ditch the “center suite”… or just drop F all together since this has no chance of success in the long term.
Did you inquire if your dad could just take the broken seat anyway? I mean this in the most genuine way possible. I remember you posting about how he seems to always keep the seat upright rather than in bed mode
@ 305 -- I did! You have good memory, because he would actually be very happy sleeping upright (it's another reason I didn't want to share the double suite -- he hates reclining!). However, they said it was a safety issue, and the seat couldn't be occupied even in the upright position.
Corporate culture is usually from the (very) top down. When you see what LH's boss values are, I’m sad but not surprised by the way they treated you.
Could have at least given you guys a couple rubber ducks.
Terrible customer service indeed. The way that news was delivered to you last minute was significantly worse than updates I've received from DL/AS about a broken seat on an Embraer lol.
* Quack* .. * Quack* !!
Did you ask / they offer putting you both on the later Swiss flight in first?
@ Alec -- It wasn't offered or discussed.
I'd be rather peeved too. I do wonder if the communication from the woman in Germany was perhaps a language issue? I am always somewhat more tolerant of this.
@ Mike -- 100% not a language issue, her English was very good, and I could've also spoken to her in German (but she addressed me in English, presumably because I have a US phone -- I'm actually not even sure she was based in Germany).
wow.... simply stunning.
Hope you and your dad have a great trip
This is kind of disgraceful from Lufthansa. They're supposedly trying to move upmarket but they seem to have only invested in an improved seat and neglected every other aspect of an improved experience with customer service being by far the weakest. At least in the case of BA they don't act like they're trying to compete on the same level as Air France or the middle eastern carriers.
.. lol... an 'improved' seat that is already 'no-op' and the whole reason for this cluster ?
A failure no matter how you cut it IMHO....
And say what you will about BA generally, their premium customer service is top-notch. I'd argue for premium customers it's better than Asian carriers (and certainly better the middle east carriers). Their issue is IFE.
BA IFE is solid on the new planes like the 350 and 787-10. Just flew on the 787-10 and it was fast and responsive with a good selection of movies, TV, and music. The old IFE is definitely subpar though and consists of the majority of long haul BA aircraft.
Move upmarket? LOL. On my last Lufthansa flight, you had to pay for your nonalcoholic drinks! What a joke.
I'm curious why they didn't offer you 50% off one of the upgrades, in exchange for accepting to both be seated in the middle suite?
They'd have some extra revenue and, I'm guessing, you'd have accepted that as compensation.
@ Mentee Salmon -- We are talking about a German airline, so I think it's a case of "the rules are the rules." ;-) But yeah, I was disappointed by the lack of any sort of attempt to find a reasonable or creative solution.
Only a fool pays $2k on top of a revenue J fare to upgrade to F on a US-EU redeye that barely hits seven hours in the air, no matter how "special" the occasion or the person you're traveling with.
@ Derek -- Allow me to introduce myself. I'm Ben, and for 17+ years, I've been writing a blog largely about airlines, including reviewing airlines. Maybe at times I act like a fool, but it's all for the content!
Ben, you must realize that Derek is the Spirit passenger who goes for the all-you-can-drink mimosas . . . after having loaded up his carry-on with food from the Amex buffet.
Or someone who does this for a living….
Or one could also be labeled a judgmental fool for an utter lack of empathy for others' values & situations ...
Of course with luftansa "it is what it is" but if it was an us carrier could be end of the world and end of american aviation article! Seriously you bloggers act like European carriers are so much better when they are not
@ John -- So I act like Lufthansa is great, and so much better than US carriers? Have you seen my coverage about the airline?
C'mon, please try to be more balanced than this "you bloggers" stuff. We're all individuals, and we're not all the same, for better or worse.
Subjectively speaking, yes indeed, many European carriers are better than the US-3. Of course, there's variation on the spectrum but as whole definitely better. This would even include the European 261 compensation rule. Of course, the caveat being this is an extremely low bar with the likes of 'lufty Luftwaffe' on the 'Frontier-ish' low end !
While I can see why you’d not want to be forced to share the suite, and you want to give your dad a comfortable trip, a LOT of avgeeks are very curious about what the experience of 2 people in the center suite is like. This seems like a golden opportunity to get some very original content for your blog. You should have taken the offer for you to share it, and maybe argue later about compensation.
@ DT -- Hopefully we'll sort of experience that. After all, pending approval from the crew, we'll be able to sit next to one another for the meals...
Gute reise und Bon Appetite !