| Update: Oops, this is embarrassing. Is EU261 actually based on being delayed by four hours rather than three hours for long haul? If so, I guess I went through this whole thought process for nothing. It was fun regardless, and I enjoyed the Dom & Doritos! The original post can still be found below… |
It’s not often I say this, but I had the most awesome flight delay ever today…
In this post:
Our planned itinerary for today
Ford and I returned from Europe to the United States today, flying from Frankfurt to Tampa on two separate tickets. Our itinerary was supposed to be as follows:
SQ26 Frankfurt to New York departing 8:35AM arriving 11:10AM
DL1605 New York to Tampa departing 3:41PM arriving 6:58PM
Most significantly, I redeemed 86,000 KrisFlyer miles per person for the one-way Suites ticket from Frankfurt to New York (the new Singapore Suites is especially amazing if you’re traveling with someone and get the double bed!). I intentionally left a long layover, since we had a checked bag and were on separate tickets.
Our initial Singapore Airlines delay
Last night I received a text from Singapore Airlines indicating that our flight was delayed by 90 minutes. Instead of departing at 8:35AM, it would depart at 10:05AM. This was because the aircraft was late on the inbound from Singapore, and I appreciated that the airline communicated this so far in advance.
Perfect, I thought:
- This would shorten our unnecessarily long layover in New York
- It would allow me to get some stuff done in the morning, since 8:35AM is an early departure
Our second Singapore Airlines delay
This was Ford’s first time flying Singapore Suites, and suffice it to say he was really impressed. We were kind of sad that the flight time was only 7hr40min for this sector, as that’s hardly enough time to enjoy this amazing experience.
Shortly after boarding, the inflight manager welcomed us aboard. She apologized for the delay, and said we could hopefully make up some time enroute, as our flight time was a bit quicker than usual. I told her “well you can tell the captain we’re in no rush, he can take his time.”
We started our taxi, and five minutes later the incredibly professional captain was on the PA to apologize about a mechanical issue with the aircraft. He explained there was a hydraulics issue with the number three engine. However, we couldn’t return to our gate, but rather would have to go to a remote stand and have maintenance look at it.
Having to spend more time in Singapore Suites does not suck. As soon as we got to the remote stand, the exceptional crew made sure we were well taken care of. 2008 Dom Perignon? Don’t mind if I do!
2008 Dom Perignon with Doritos? Also don’t mind if I do (don’t @ me!).
2007 Taittinger Comtes de Champagne Blanc de Blancs? Sure, let’s mix it up!
We even got some chicken satay on the ground. We were offered more food, but decided to save our appetite (though not our thirst) for after takeoff.
I was so impressed by the professionalism of the entire Singapore Airlines team. The captain updated us multiple times, and the station manager even got on the plane to apologize over the PA to passengers for the delay. It took about two hours until everything was fixed, and we didn’t mind one bit.
A race against the EU261 clock
I’m sure some readers are starting to know where this is going. 😉
The European Union dictates what compensation passengers are owed in the event of delays. Per EU261, we would be entitled to 600 Euro per person (1,200 Euro for both of us) in cash compensation if we arrived in New York at least three hours behind schedule. The rest of the flight just became a fun race against the clock in my head:
- We took off at 12:20PM (6:20AM New York time), 3hr45min after our scheduled departure time of 8:35AM
- Our flight time was scheduled to be 7hr40min, which would mean we’d land in New York at 2PM local time
- Our original scheduled arrival time was 11:10AM, so we’d need to arrive at 2:10PM or later in order to have a delay of at least three hours
In other words, we needed either a slight delay in the air, or we’d need to taxi for at least 10 minutes at JFK in order to arrive at 2:10PM or later.
I should also point out the other side of the equation:
- We had checked a bag
- Our Delta flight to Tampa was departing at 3:41PM, and at JFK Delta requires bags to be checked at least an hour in advance
- In other words, we’d need to be checked in with Delta at JFK by 2:41PM, which didn’t leave much time, especially with how slow bags tend to come out in the US
- Never mind the fact that there were very few flights to be rebooked on in the event that we couldn’t make that flight
Did we get paid to enjoy Singapore Suites?
So, how did it go? We touched down at JFK at 2:02PM, more or less as expected at the time that we took off. Remember, we were only delayed by three hours if we arrived at 2:10PM or later. I’ve gotta be honest, at this point I felt like I was on a game show — a few minutes was the difference between getting 1,200 Euro or not. These were the longest 480 seconds of my life.
We taxied to our gate very, very slowly. Then we had to hold short of runway 22R for a couple of minutes, which was perhaps the saving grace here.
We finally got to our arrival gate at 2:13PM, 3hr3min after our scheduled arrival. Woot!
Singapore Airlines’ website similarly reflects this arrival time.
It ended up taking 10 minutes for the door to open, so we only got off the plane at 2:23PM.
What happened next?
At this point it was 2:23PM, and we had to go through immigration, pick up our checked bags, and re-check our checked bags by 2:41PM, based on Delta’s one hour baggage cutoff at JFK.
Ford and I took a divide and conquer approach. I headed through immigration with all our carry-ons, while Ford waited for our checked bags. Fortunately Delta has a baggage re-check area just outside the arrivals hall in Terminal 4, where I arrived at 2:35PM.
I explained the situation, and asked the agent if they’re 100% strict about the one hour baggage cutoff, or if there was a bit of leniency (if the answer was “no,” I had another trick up my sleeve, but fortunately didn’t need to use it). She said “we’ll see what we can do, usually we can have some flexibility.”
Of course I didn’t know how long it would take Ford to get our bags. The bags arrived pretty quickly, and Ford showed up at the counter at around 2:45PM. That was 56 minutes before departure, and the agent was happy to check in the bags.
At this point we had to take the AirTrain over to Terminal 2, where our flight was departing from. There was no line at security, and we got to our departure gate the same second that first class boarding was announced. I couldn’t have timed this any better if I tried.
Bottom line
What an incredibly lucky travel day we had. Not only did we get to fly Singapore Airlines’ incredible Suites from Frankfurt to New York, but we got an extra 90 minutes on the plane thanks to a significant ground delay. Then we arrived a smidge over three hours late, meaning we’re each entitled to 600 Euro compensation under European Union laws. And then we had the perfect layover at JFK, where we literally just walked onto our connecting flight.
I feel like I should probably buy a lottery ticket…
great review!!!
I flee several times in Singapore Airlines. The professionalism and how they take care of customers is impressive. it is a real shocking situation to fly SIA and then take a flight in BA, or AA, or any other one of those crappy airlines.
Wow I didn't know Delta had such an early checked bag cutoff for JFK... with JetBlue for domestic flights from JFK it's 40 minutes.
What an amicable experience. Congratulations to the both of you
He said it was a late arrival from Singapore. Did you find out the reason why? Every flight is arriving around 1 - 1.5 hours late due to avoiding Ukrainian airspace for safety reasons, therefore, I think SQ can justify that at least part of the delay was beyond on their control (force majeur, war etc) so you won’t be entitled to compensation.
Sounds like my 4/5/22 AA #720 CLT-FCO delayed flight - NOT! We had a mechanical while taxiing & returned to the gate which delayed us nearly 2 hours. We taxied out again, and had a 2nd mechanical & returned to the gate. We sat at the gate & the FA's promised drinks & sandwiches. We got nuts & a water bottle. The flight eventually cancelled.
I hope you not got any thing in compensation. Rich people who can travel in first class don't deserve that.
They are just capitalistic picks.
Why are you here then
The real story here is that there's a place in the market for an ultra premium Doritos-style chip that can be sold to upmarket buyers like SQ first class.
Had a similar though not so lavish experience several years ago. I was on a Cathay JFK-HKG flight where I was able to get a last-minute business class award ticket rather than the economy I had booked. It was raining pretty hard. We boarded the flight on time but then lightning started, and as anyone knows, when lightning is seen, the airport freezes. As in, no planes can move, all ground personnel go inside, etc....
Had a similar though not so lavish experience several years ago. I was on a Cathay JFK-HKG flight where I was able to get a last-minute business class award ticket rather than the economy I had booked. It was raining pretty hard. We boarded the flight on time but then lightning started, and as anyone knows, when lightning is seen, the airport freezes. As in, no planes can move, all ground personnel go inside, etc. So we stayed on the taxiway for 4 hours until the storms cleared.
There's something incredibly relaxing about being able to sit back in a lounger chair, watch a movie, read a magazine, while rain is coming down outside your window, all the while being served snacks and drinks from the flight crew :-) I thanked my lucky stars I wasn't in economy class that day, sitting in economy for 4 hours *before* starting an 18 hour flight!
(Of course, I missed my connection in HKG, but that meant I got to wander around Hong Kong the next day before my next flight, so I didn't mind too much :-)
My boyfriend and I were on the same flight and had such a nice surprise reading this story this morning- on the phone now with Singapore airlines! We used 15k miles in economy as a saver award and thought it was a great deal but did admire the lucky Singapore suite passengers- wish we knew it was you and Ford (we liked his suitcase and bag btw) in the nice suite sitting area before boarding!
It's 3 hours....
Unfortunately most airlines use landing time to calculate delays, not arrival at gate. Despite the 3 vs 4 hour issues already discussed this would have very likely led to your claim being dismissed.
I think there is a stated case that it is calculate at when the aircraft door is opened......
EU261 defines arrival as the time the door is opened.
3-4 hours: 300 euro
>4 hours: 600 euro
Simply Google it.
It’s definitely 4 hours or longer for longhaul…
Lucky - wow, what an exciting story. I do have one question though, and I know this is going to be controversial. Do you feel any guilt whatsoever about filing and expecting compensation from the EU? I would, and I realize that most would not, but let me explain.
You did not pay cash for this flight, you used miles - miles which I'm sure you somehow "gamed" via a credit card bonus, or some...
Lucky - wow, what an exciting story. I do have one question though, and I know this is going to be controversial. Do you feel any guilt whatsoever about filing and expecting compensation from the EU? I would, and I realize that most would not, but let me explain.
You did not pay cash for this flight, you used miles - miles which I'm sure you somehow "gamed" via a credit card bonus, or some other similar method. You had an incredible experience, complete with great champagne and food while still on the ground. The crew were exceptional in their treatment to you complete with providing timely updates, apologizing, etc. Ultimately, you arrived at your destination and honestly, were not inconvenienced whatsoever. You yourself admitted that it was the perfect layover at JFK to be able to arrive, walk directly to your gate and board your next flight. At the end of the day, it doesn't appear that you were inconvenienced at all, you had a phenomenal flight and have a great story to tell. Why do you want more than that?? Granted, I realize that this is the EU who would be compensating - not Singapore Airlines. However, I have to think in some form or fashion, the airlines do somehow end up contributing to this. I don't know that for a fact, but I would not be surprised.
I'm not trying to be superior or holier-than-thou, but I just look at this situation a little differently, I guess. I would not feel entitled to any compensation or feel that anything was necessarily due to me. Again, that's just me and I realize I am most likely in the minority on this one. You're very fortunate and I just feel that you "game" the system enough as it is. I don't mean that negatively necessarily, but you have to admit, you get a lot for not paying that much. When is enough just that - enough?? This comes off as greedy in my eyes. I feel that you could really make a gracious statement to your readers and not pursue the compensation that you feel you're entitled to. But again, that's just me and I realize everyone has their own opinions on situations like this.
Miles are not free. Ever heard of opportunity cost?
David - I realize that. I never stated that miles are free. In most cases, miles are a perk or a result or a benefit of cash paid for something else - unless you purchase miles out right from an airline.
David, opportunity cost pertains to use, not acquisition, yes?
It is not the EU that pays the delay compensation, it is the airline.
The core service you purchase from the airline is transportation. It may be decorated with a fancy seat, but their core job is to deliver you from A to B. They failed to do that in a timely manner, so it seems fair to me to claim compensation - regardless of what you paid, where in the plane you were, and what the delay experience was like.
Also you are incorrect, the airline is the one paying not the EU.
Max & Cosmo - thank you for the clarification on who pays. I think this just adds to my viewpoint even more now. Singapore delivered exceptional service and now is expected to pay money for a delay that Lucky was hoping would happen. Again, just me but I have a little bit of a problem with that. I realize not everyone would though.
Don’t you just love looking out the window upstairs of an a380 from a first class suite on a rainy day ?
Only a few distinguished people on the planet ever get to experience flying first class on an a380.
And quite a few bit so distinguished people, such as me
@Marty
A few hundred million people have ever flown international first class out of 8 billion people on the planet.
You miss the fundamental base of the EU261 it's for EU based businesses, not just flights originating or flying to EU countries. SQ is headquartered in Asia so doesn’t qualify. Even then claims made are often not upheld if they can prove it was out of their control….
Doesn't matter where the airline is based, for flights departing Europe.
If it were the other way around, from outside Europe to Europe, then you'd be right, and only an EU based airline would be obligated to compensate. But for flights departing the EU any carrier has to compensate, regardless of being or not based in an EU-community state. That's stated in article 3 of the regulation.
I would agree with Andre since I received EU261 compensation from AA for a delayed flight from London to JFK. We had to fill out the paperwork and submit documentation but AA didn't push back on the claim and paid the full amount due.
3-4hrs over 3500km should get you €300ea which still isn't bad !
Actually, it is for EU (Or EEA/CH) based carriers either arriving or departing the EU (Or EEA/CH)
OR
non-EU based carriers departing the EU (Or EEA/CH)
So a SQ flight FRA-JFK qualifies, but the SQ JFK-FRA flight does not. But the LH JFK-FRA does.
Unfortunately you won't be receiving a compensation.
As per EC Regulation 261/2004, article 6, paragraph 1.c), flights that are not intra-community (between 2 signatory countries), and which are above 3500 km in great circle length (FRA-JFK is 6206 km) the delay must be at least 4 hours for the passengers to be entitled to a compensation.
Apologies, please disregard my previous message. I had completely forgotten about the Sturgeon - Condor case, you should be entitled to compensation.
Lucky, search for the case C-402/07. You should find it on curia.europa.eu (might be easier through Google).
The flight in question was a long haul as well (Toronto-Frankfurt), and the conclusion reached by the Judges was "Articles 5, 6 and 7 of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that passengers...
Apologies, please disregard my previous message. I had completely forgotten about the Sturgeon - Condor case, you should be entitled to compensation.
Lucky, search for the case C-402/07. You should find it on curia.europa.eu (might be easier through Google).
The flight in question was a long haul as well (Toronto-Frankfurt), and the conclusion reached by the Judges was "Articles 5, 6 and 7 of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that passengers whose flights are delayed may be treated, for the purposes of the application of the right to compensation, as passengers whose flights are cancelled and they may thus rely on the right to compensation laid down in Article 7 of the regulation where they suffer, on account of a flight delay, a loss of time equal to or in excess of three hours, that is, where they reach their final destination three hours or more after the arrival time originally scheduled by the air carrier."
Ben and Ford’s trip was FRA-JFK which means their trip didn’t originate outside the EU therefore they are covered. Also the distances used in EU261 are capital city to capital city rather than the actual route flown, so in this case Berlin to DC.
Thanks Lucky as always. When you get a chance, can you update this post if you're successful getting the money from the EU compensation and what that process is like, etc.?
What would be the trick for the baggage that you didn't use?
Drag it to the gate with you and pretend you didn't realize it was too big to fit in the overhead.....
Can you do a blog post about the DL A321 plane
JFK-TPA
Your experience on that plane?
Also were you in FC?
Did it have the new fast WiFi
Lucky is always in the front section of the plane. I think the only time he was in economy was that an AA flight had rescheduled and he had no other choice but to take economy. He wanted to get home early to Ford and Winston. Also, he most likely will write his review (in this review he did mention he boarded when first class was called) from New York to Tampa as his loyal and avid readers requested.
I believe he did a main cabin extra review on AA
Very much looking forward to our SQ Suites (first time in the new suites) FRA-JFK in Nov. Thanks to this blog for noting availability.
Last week I flew Southwest, and after 20 minutes in the plane at the gate, the captain announced they were still loading bags. I looked out the window... yeah, the bags were there, but there was no "loading" being done.
Love me the simplicity and the staff of southwest, but man...
Very much looking forward to our SQ Suites (first time in the new suites) FRA-JFK in Nov. Thanks to this blog for noting availability.
Last week I flew Southwest, and after 20 minutes in the plane at the gate, the captain announced they were still loading bags. I looked out the window... yeah, the bags were there, but there was no "loading" being done.
Love me the simplicity and the staff of southwest, but man could they use a F cabin. (I mean it really sucks that the best domestic flight crews are on an airline that has no option for comfort)
Doritos and dom… should have been the headline.
As much as I like Doritos, it just doesn't seem SQ Suite-like! Nice report!
Ben,
I'm curious if SQ wasn't allowing you to check-thru your luggage to TPA because DL is not a Star Alliance member? I'm desperate to know coz I have an exact situation coming up in December (DPS-SIN-EWR-DTW-IND on 2 separate award tickets with SQ and DL)
No USA carrier lets you check bags through to a domestic connection. Even if the same airline. Unless I’m mistaken.
And I love Doritos. Go with what you love. I ordered a VB in Cathay first over the dom and enjoyed it so much I asked for another to the flight attendants dismay “I’m sorry sir! No one has ever ordered two”
I think they allow you to check it through if it's on the same ticket but probably not otherwise. You have to collect your bag to clear customs but it is tagged to your final destination and you just need to go to a bag drop. I've done that on QF tickets with connecting flights (on my QF ticket) onto AA and Alaska fights through LAX, SFO and DFW.
You can check bags through if same carrier for international. We did it with Delta and KLM on same ticket.
Aren’t you at all conflicted about pursuing the compensation? It doesn’t seem you were inconvenienced and it was a mechanical issue likely out of their control. Doesn’t this just increase the cost of airfare?
The regulations are here to protect passengers, its for corporations to make sure they arrive on time regardless if there is any inconvenience at all
Agree with the sentiment. A couple extra hours in the suites and glasses of vintage champs seems like compensation enough.
In fact it’s eur300 if it’s a tech delay under 4 hrs delay on arrival
Great story! I had a similar experience a few days ago - minus the DOM and the $600! I flew out of Orlando Saturday during the massive (storm related) flight delays. Had 2 separate tickets; MCO-JFK on Delta, then SQ 25 (JFK-FRA-SIN) on Singapore Airlines, with a 3h45m connection, which sounded plenty at the time. Then we sat on the tarmac in MCO for 2-hours in the storm with some planes turning back to gates...
Great story! I had a similar experience a few days ago - minus the DOM and the $600! I flew out of Orlando Saturday during the massive (storm related) flight delays. Had 2 separate tickets; MCO-JFK on Delta, then SQ 25 (JFK-FRA-SIN) on Singapore Airlines, with a 3h45m connection, which sounded plenty at the time. Then we sat on the tarmac in MCO for 2-hours in the storm with some planes turning back to gates to refuel. Long story short, I'm just glad I made the SQ flight with 30 mins to spare in the Centurion Lounge!
@Ben this is a great story! At least you were on SQ. If it were a US carrier, you probably would've sat there with nothing, MAYBE a bottle of water. You're right, that is one of the best flight delays ever!
Ben, it was for sure a lucky day for me. LOl.
Eli.
@ Eli -- It was a pleasure to meet you, Eli!
Its not gate arrival time, its door open time that counts for EU261
I have had 2 major delays with SQ. The first one was MEL to SING - left 4 hours late. I was in suites. The flight attendants in suites had the captain come and apologise to me. I had a connecting flight (with a long connection), but just in case they also booked me on another flight leaving a few hours later. Once we took off I was given (I think) $300 in KrisFlyer vouchers...
I have had 2 major delays with SQ. The first one was MEL to SING - left 4 hours late. I was in suites. The flight attendants in suites had the captain come and apologise to me. I had a connecting flight (with a long connection), but just in case they also booked me on another flight leaving a few hours later. Once we took off I was given (I think) $300 in KrisFlyer vouchers (without even asking for anything). Upon arrival into SG, they had tables lined up with A-D, E to H etc to deal with those who had missed their flights. Those in suites were greeted individually. They also had 2 SQ staff standing there with boards with names on for those whose connecting flights were about to depart. Those people were taken on golf carts to their gates. In addition when I boarded my next flight to JFK via FRA, the flight attendant apologised for my previous delay and asked what they could do to help.
The second time had a 9 hour delay in SG but I was in suites so hung out in the Private Room. They kept giving food vouchers to those without sound access.
I have heard bad stories but I have been really impressed with how they handle delays.
When does the clock start/stop on the 3hr EU compensation rule. I was in a similar situation a couple years ago and they counted arrival time as when the aircraft touched down, not at the gate etc.
There was a court case a while ago that said that the arrival time for the purposes of calculating delay was when the door is open as that is presumably when passengers are permitted to leave. So, as long as the door opened after 14:10, they were eligible.
Ben, would you be willing to share the trick up your sleeve if they wouldn't let you check in the bag late?
File again. You have several years to file a claim.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what makes this blog so worth reading. One can get a chart of credit card welcome bonuses in a bunch of other places, but you can't fake the excitement of a good travel story :)
Great pairing with the doritos!
This is a fun post! Good luck on the EU261 comp!
I'm booked HKG-SIN-FRA-JFK in new Suites next January... let's hope HKG opens up by then. Sigh.
Can't wait to fly it!
@Omar We are talking Singapore Airlines here, not TAP Portugal or Air Canada (among many others). Singapore Airlines runs a professional, trustworthy, and customer friendly business and handles the claims fairly and fast.
That might have been true pre-covid, but have you tried calling them recently? Almost impossible to get through. Most airlines are being super stingy with everything to make up for lost revenue.
Doritos? Dom Pérignon may have died in 1715, but I assure you he was rolling over in his grave.
(All in all it sounds like a really fun day.)
@ Super VC10 -- LOL. In my defense, we had ordered some champagne, and then a few minutes later the flight attendant came around with a tray that had two kinds of chips on it, with one being Doritos. I blame her. ;-)
Such a great story! My guess is very few passengers on that flight will know to submit a claim for their 600 euros though!
@ Paul -- For sure! I'd assume a vast majority of passengers don't know they're entitled to it, or how to request it.
EU261 requires airlines to advise you of your rights and provide information on how to file a claim.
Maybe explain some time how to go about filing a EU261 claim.
@ RetiredATLATC -- I'll be sure to write a guide based on my experience, stay tuned!
Actually, that's incorrect. It's for ANY flight TO and FROM the EU. Any flights.
People can claim such compensation from sites like Travelusave.com.
Sorry tried replying to a different comment earlier. You can actually do this rather easily at sites like travelusave.com.
Those sites actually take about 30% of the compensation as their fee.
What is the best way to claim/enforce the compensation on SQ?
@ Alex -- Generally speaking you just contact airline customer relations, and they can help you. It can often be quite a bit of back-and-forth, though. I'll be sure to detail my experience trying to claim this with Singapore Airlines.
Remeber you lost €1200 on the way to Frankfurt
Being entitled to and actually receiving 600 EUR compensation are two different things. I wish you luck in getting it!
@ Omar -- Hah, that's a great point! I'll report back with my experience.
You are out of luck. It is 4 hours if the flight distance is more than 3500km. Wonder that no one here knows it.
Ain’t that the truth. I have never claimed it from SQ, so who knows, maybe they’ll be fine. But with BA I had to threaten legal action. They just lie and deny and hope you won’t persevere with your claim. I got it in the end, of course.
Adam, how long did it take BA to respond to your initial claim? Did they respond at all? What did you do? I submitted a claim on Feb 28 for a flight two days earlier and still haven't received a response.
I also just filed a CEDR case yesterday. Not sure if they will be helpful or not.
But the Doritos...
Ben! :)