As an aviation geek, I love listening to air traffic control audio, and always enjoy the VASAviation YouTube channel, which does a great job covering noteworthy air traffic control interactions.
Continue reading: Aeromexico Pilot Tells JFK ATC To Relax, And It Gets Heated
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
The air controller told someone else to relax earlier on in the video, so when the aeromexico said ‘you told us to relax’ i think he meant ‘us’ in the general sense and not his plane itself. Lost in translation. But also obviously uncalled for on the part of the pilot.
I’ve been listening to JFK and LGA area ATC for years and agree with Ben the controller is hardly rude. I can only imagine how infamous JFK controller Kennedy Steve would have handled DL maintenance. Probably would’ve brought the poor soul to tears! That said, I think it’s very unsafe to have just one controller on duty at an airport like JFK, even if it was 2 AM.
ATC is always right (unless they are wrong ) but because they are in charge you may nicely correct them and make them more right! This ATC should be applauded for his patience.
100% agree; we have to fix the ATC situation to where we get enough folks in the pipeline that stretching this thin isn't necessary. Raise wages, recruit where we haven't before, fast-track visas, and again, RAISE WAGES. I've got a lot of faith in commercial aviation but this thing where we overburden ATCs really sketches me out.
Because of the stress of that job at JFK (and likely other big, busy airports) instructions are quick and curt because there's no time to be "folksy." And pilots should understand that fact.
That Delta maintenance worker (presumably towing a/c on a super tug) was absolutely scary. The idea that someone could be that clueless to the airport and it's operations tugging around a plane.
No wonder these controllers have no patience.
Agree ATC did a fine job here. Patient, if anything.
Understood that the video editing makes things seem more hectic than perhaps they were, but having just one controller running everything at an airport like JFK at any hour seems generally unadvisable...
Also, context is important — this guy is a New Yorker, and by New Yorker standards, he actually doesn’t come across as rude to me.
Emily Post was a New Yorker. The standards of etiquette are not any lower, it’s just that fewer people meet them. That means you can get away with being rude, as people have resigned to tolerate it. That doesn’t make rude behavior not rude.
Rudeness is geography agnostic. That’s why we all say places like Japan are incredibly polite. Nobody ever says New York is incredibly polite.
I wonder why this always happens in US not somewhere in Europe. We have busy airport over here as well but American ATC controllers seem to loose it much more often.
I feel bad for this ATC guy, dealing with idiots all alone at 2am. Everyone messing up readbacks and he’s doing as good as job as possible, then some guy tells him to relax lol.
NYC ATC has NOTHING compared to the US contracted ATC controller who worked Kabul high over Afghanistan a decade ago...they guy would yell at EVERYBODY!
Why is it so hard for new yorkers to be polite? At JFK, all the time you get angry staff yelling, just because you exist. as a customer I don't care if it is a NY thing or not, but the service is horrible.
How is it that only one controller is handling all this by himself? Seems like it’s an accident waiting to happen.
It is no excuse to be rude even if you are overloaded with your work. It is a tendancy that I myself have experienced in the United States and does not happen in Europe. I think it is that the Americans cannot imagine the effort a pilot makes to speak and understand a language that is not his own and pronounced as it is in the United States. The spanish speaking pilot might have said 13R as a question? or if if it were a mistake, there is no need to scold him like a school boy.
He did kinda say "relax' to AeroMexico when he told everyone on the frequencies to relax. That being said, the controller really seemed to have things handled and was on top of what I assume are a lot of complicated instructions and procedures. He was trying to be as clear and forthcoming as possible with everyone he was communicating with. The AeroMexico pilots had nothing to be offended about with ATC interactions with them, imo.
Honestly, as much as I understand the pressure the controller has to deal with and even though he is definitely not the rudest JFK controller ever, he is still rude by most people's standards. He did say to the cargo and the Korean pilots to relax and it's definitely not his job to remind a pilot what the standard phraseology is when communicating with the tower. The Aeromexico crew may have been unprofessional for not letting know the controller of their intentions on time, but imo the controller's attitude is unprofessional too.
And if this is related to Aeromexico, why did you include a picture of a LATAM flight on the header?
@ JD -- I included a picture of the apron at JFK, which is where this incident took place. I'm sorry, I don't specifically have a picture of an Aeromexico 737 MAX 8 holding short of a runway at JFK at 2AM, or else I would have used that...
Controller is a champ. Sounds like amateur hour at JFK and he's the only one holding things together preventing chaos.
Lucky if you don't have a picture of an Aeromexico 737 MAX 8 holding short of a runway at JFK at 2AM why do I even visit this website
Okay, but why is there a latam plane on the thumbnail if its an aeromexico story?
no this is such a lazy excuse, you just have no respect for Mexico or its airlines, you only write negative pieces about Mexico and when good things happen down in Mexico you ignore it while everyone else covers it.
I’m embarrassed for you. Not only are you wasting your time listening to useless arguments, you’re also taking the time to editorialize said chatter. I read the headline, and skipped right to the comment section. Why waste one’s time with such pithy topics? I need to block OMAAT from my Google feed.
I'm not exactly a nervous flyer, but the ATC comms at JFK sure do stoke my anxiety about using that airport. So many foreign carriers with pilots for whom English as a second language. So much movement 24h a day. Somehow it all works, but seems like a recipe for incursions, etc. Just in this example, there's an aircraft 5 miles out from the runway where AeroMexico is now sitting (instead of holding short), and the AeroMexico pilot is wasting the controller's time when he could be calling for the inbound aircraft to go around. Seems like an inordinately riskier environment than say, ATL, which is even busier but mostly utilized by the same airline.
@ Chris -- I'm curious, do you comment on all things on the internet you don't find interesting and don't read about, or just this post?
Not sure it was an *inbound* aircraft 5 miles out. I think 5 miles refers to how far the departing ANA159 (with their new business class ) is from the runway. Hence the 7 miles separation mentioned by the ATC - 5 miles from the end of a 2-mile long runway.
In this article, I forgot to say the main point which is the pilot accused ATC of telling him to relax. ATC never told him to relax
Very good analysis of the situation, however I would add (for those of you that don’t know), when a controller on the mid is working by himself, frequencies for local, ground and clearance are not always combined so he is hearing pilots, ground vehicles,etc sometimes simultaneously which causes a added workload.
The bottom line is that the Aeromexico pilot gave a bad runway read back on initial and then argued that he was given something he was not. And yes, despite previous comments this IS a big deal.
I think the focus of the article is wrong. This is a safety issue, not who is right or wrong.
For example, I worked in IT, and our company had a rule - no one alone in the data center. You always had to have a second person, even if they had nothing to do. Why? Safety. What if you have a heart attack or are injured? It's so noisy in there, no one will hear you call for help.
Sure, it's 2AM, but it's JFK, which can be very busy, even in the early morning hours.
What if the controller has a heart attack?
Then what?
The ATC is doing the job of three people, and clearly there was enough traffic to justify another body? Was there someone else there? On break? Shouldn't you pitch in to get through the "traffic jam" then go on break? If it's just the one person, and there is a staffing shortage, then our government is dropping the ball because this is a safety issue.
Whether or not the pilot or ATC is right is inconsequential compared to the potential safety risk.
I grew up in TX, he didn’t come across as rude to me either, but effective. He came across as a guy doing a really tough stressful job. I actually appreciate directness, having to ‘sugar coat’ everything leads to confusing and is a waste of time, which this guy doesn’t have. And if you’re not interested in the content, then don’t read it.
Typically it's the pilots that cause controllers grief. The absolute worst ones are American Airlines and corporate pilots. Corporate are the biggest jerks on the radio. Look at me, I'm so entitled flying a Gulfstream. During my 32 year career we had more fun jacking the assholes around because of there entitled attitude.
He didn’t lose it. He was trying to be polite, but the AM pilots lost their cool.
The controller did say to relax earlier but he said to everyone on the frequency, not specifically to aero mexico
He didn't come across as rude to you because you yourself come across as rude, whether or not you are aware of it. Growing up in Texas does not make you not rude.
True. Rude or not, the controller was assertive and self-assured. These qualities are characteristic of New Yorkers, and tend to come off as rude unless tempered by a pleasant tone, which the New York accent isn't.
There's definitely some level of burying the lede here. We can debate at length about demeanor, but there 100% ought to be more than 1 person working ATC in a situation like this.
Okay, it's a big deal, but I've heard it happen before. Tower de-escalates the situation by putting a lid on it. I said XX, you assert you heard YY, well I assert I really said XX. We can go back to the tapes later. That's how (a fellow NY ATC) handled a previous incarnation of this situation.
It is one of the largest airports with diverse international traffic, so the circumstances are ripe for cultural clashes, especially since NYC as a culture is famously "assertive" to put it politely.
@ Ben-- Sorry I'm answering you so late. Mom said I had to finish cutting the lawn or I wont get my allowance. So yeah, I do comment on things that aren't interesting when I'm bored. Which is kinda alot.
Well, gotta go. Have to study for my final exam. They cram alot of stuff at ya in summer school. Can they keep me from graduating if I fail gym again?
The Aeromexico pilot may have read the taxi instructions wrong, that's why the pilots are trained to clarify any misunderstanding, to avoid an incident. As for the pilot requesting to delay the takeoff. The pilot is the one uncharted of his airplane and if he request to delay the takeoff he needs to be granted his request, furthermore ground control does not control the runway the tower does, so his request to the tower is correct.
It’s neither the pilot’s fault nor their responsibility that JFK, one of the busiest airports in the world, has one controller working 3 frequencies.
JFK has a ton of international traffic, especially at night, so there are going to be miscommunications, goes with the territory. Patience is required and generally NYC controllers don’t have much.
Having said that, and I’m sure the controller was getting frustrated and annoyed, Aeromexico would have been better off just saying “sorry” and get the hell outta dodge.
"First the Aeromexico pilot incorrectly reads back instructions, which isn’t a huge deal,"
Ben it is a HUGE deal. It can be the start of a chain that leads to an accident. That is why the controller corrects the pilot immediately.
Trust me. It is a BIG deal.
-Former ATC
Like, I’m pretty sure anyone with a spouse can attest to that not being a great strategy.
“One marital advice at a time” coming to a blog soon…
I'm pretty sure if we dissect your life there are many things you do that others find useless. Guarantee it in fact. Statistically impossible to avoid.
I'll look forward to your commentary Wednesday since VASAviation released a 9 minute recording of the same ATC employee showing he was perfectly doing his job. Don't get sucked into this kind of nonsense in future
Thanks for the insight and sharing things from ATC's perspective. Definitely no fault with the guy who continued to be professional even when being wrongly told to "chill".
Is there more than one controller in the tower - but only one is on duty at this time? The "what ifs?" should be of concern if the lone controller monitoring all 3 freqs should have a medical emergency.
So, JFK has only one person in the tower cab at 0200? That person melts down and passes out. Then what the hell are you supposed to do? So the Aeromexico guy wants a little space for wake avoidance and he mis-spoke the heading of the runway. It's not really the controller's fault that the FAA is so cheap (and stupid) to leave ONE person in the tower. Talk about runway incursions?
Having work at LAX for 20 years and lots of miss. It does get hectic when you’re down to one controller during certain hours in the morning. if we didn’t correct on which runways were crossing specifically things could go wrong quickly. That’s why it’s critical for us to make sure that read backs are correct . Just let the controller know prior to getting up to the runway, you want minutes not miles ,based on your A/C.
The ATC guy did tell everyone to "just relax" (at 5:20). And I assume that all involved heard it. If I were the AM pilots, I would've taken it to mean me too. I can't stand excuses like "he's from New York, that's how people talk." Well, he's not dealing with people from New York. From my calculations, he was dealing with folks from Mexico, Korea, Hong Kong, Japan, and the US. In many of those societies, the ATC's tone and choice of words would be seen as dismissive and rude. If he's going to work a large international airport, he needs to learn how to deal with people in a way that does not come off as condescending. I'd tell him to calm down too!
I can't believe there's only one controller in the tower at JFK and he's working all 3 positions. I was at a level 3 tower and we always had 2 controllers on duty for the mids even though we never had more than 5 overnight flights.
My guess there were 2 controllers on duty in the tower and one was sleeping at 2am.
He replied below
I included a picture of the apron at JFK, which is where this incident took place.
If you’re too inexperienced to deal with ATC in NYC airspace then don’t fly there.
yes it's true...JFK LGA EWR IAD blah blah blah....usually have only one person in the tower cab late at night (or early morn). I worked Freight out out here in the middle of the night, for years and got to know several of these controllers as friends. FAA needs more staff! They have had this "problem" for years. everyone is exhausted on these "shifts". Pilots and controllers.
My first thought is why there is a SINGLE air traffic controller on duty at one of the world's busiest airports? Who would be his/her backup if they fell ill, etc.?
The Aeromexico pilot was out of line with the relax statement to the controller. The controller was right to repeat the instructions back to him and to make sure that he was understood. The skies are not always friendly (why wind, weather is given) ---- neither are the passengers or air personnel.
Aeromexico was alarmingly unprofessional in his interactions, I doubt he would act the same way in MMMX. ATC frequencies are not the place to get snippy.
If you want to operate at the world's busiest airports you need to be on top of your game. And yes the Captain has every right to ask for a delayed takeoff, but by not notifying the tower prior to getting to the runway he just made the controllers job more difficult.
It reminds me of when I came home from work and a very busy day. I started giving instructions to the kids… my wife then said “ stop trying to control them … they are not airplanes. The explanation Roger gave
I would partially blame bureaucracy for this. There is no way that staffing JFK with one controller will ever make sense at any time of the day. Additionally, the FAA needs to adopt ICAO phraseology and procedures. This has a huge part of the problem. If there were more controllers, they could speak slower and more deliberately.
I respectfully disagree, without experience. Isn't requiring repeating instructions back in place for EXACTLY this purpose? Anything can be misheard over the radio. It's repeated back and caught right there if there is a mistake. Seems to me it worked as intended.
The Spanish speaking pilot, as you call him, clearly didn't say it as a question. It was a statement. The controller corrected him, as required, and further elaborated it's 31R or 17L. The Aeromexico pilot then came back and said You said 13R, rather than just reading back and accepting the correction. So there was no innocent questioning as you imply. Rather there was an arrogance... I'm right and you're wrong, and wrong for correcting me. So who exactly began the rudeness? I suspect you may have not listened to the entire tape. There are erroneous readbacks everyday, some the fault of the controllers initial clearance,many more just erroneous readbacks. Just correct, clarify, and move on for safety's sake. It's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong.
The controller did tell the whole frequency to relax, but in context wasn't talking to the Aeromex pilot then.
He did come across as slightly annoyed or rude, but again, as many have said that's just being a New Yorker. Doesn't make it right, but has to be accepted as such. They can't change their accent or while way of living .
If ATC guy can’t handle the pressure of working alone… and dealing with many non native english speaking people, then he should not be working at one of the busiest airports in the world, transfer him to a less crowded airport… He should never have said relax to everybody in the frequency in the first place, pilots are not responsible for his bad luck or whatever is happening to him….
Whether you're a private or ATP pilot, when the controller asks you if you want the Tower number - you should know immediately that you're about to be called on the carpet for doing something wrong.
The AM pilot continued to foolishly argue, and if I were the controller, I probably would have kept him there another 40 minutes! What a jerk!
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Actually, the pilot got off lucky IMO.
I once had a controller ask if I could accept a different intersection departure at ORD on the same runway, which I declined because we hadn’t run performance for that intersection. He replied “It’s actually the intersection that makes the takeoff longer, but OK.” Here’s the point. I could have accepted the clearance because I’d already run a more restricted takeoff, but technically I wasn’t supposed to because I hadn’t run that exact intersection. Runway 13 and 31 are the same physical space and there’s only one way a jet parked at an intersection can cross moving to the taxiway he read back. Technically, the controller was right but the argument is meaningless in this specific situation. Like knowing that TSA is wrong but gritting your teeth and doing what they say anyway, it doesn’t pay to argue with ATC.
If this New Yorker was working ATC that night, I would have sent them to the penalty box.
Why is the control tower understaffed? That is THE BIG problem. Everyone that works in US airports needs to relax, starting with TSA. They should get a training in manners. The air of superiority in US people specially at airports is obnoxious. Why do they think they are superior than everyone else? Have traveled to 160 countries and the rudest people can be found in the USA… starting with waiters and up. Yes, relax take it easy and be courteous of everyone else.
ATC acts like they have zero responsibility for wake turbulence issues- then get angry when pilots don’t accept their idiotic spacing clearances. Maybe they should use some common sense. 777 taking off and you want a 737 to just follow him in less than a minute?
Really ATC? You want an Alert III that much ?
Blame our wonderful Congress. They’re the ones that don’t want to fund anything, including more federal employees
I know nothing about air-traffic control or the airline industry... I was brought here by a Facebook post. First of all, as a native New Yorker, I totally get this guy. Sounds like he's doing his job, and doing it well.
But second, this is a labor issue. Why is he working alone? Is this a post-PATCO thing? Are ATCs overworked like this often? Seems like a DOT issue, no?