At least in the airline industry in the United States, there’s no denying that the demand for premium cabin travel isn’t just a fad, but instead, is a more structural change to consumer demand. People value nice travel experiences more than in the past, and a large percentage of the profits in the industry coming…
Continue reading: Overdue: Could Delta Lead The Way With Bigger First Class Cabins?
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Gotta say, for domestic aircraft a larger first class cabin holds 0 value for me. I book economy and am fine flying economy, occasionally I get upgraded to the extra legroom section, but otherwise sitting in an econ seat for 2-5 hours is a nonissue. It's the international market where I desperately want to see more seats inbetween F/J and economy/extra legroom economy. True PE products make up such a small portion of a given widebody's seat count, which drives me nuts considering it's the exact compromise between a cramped and crowded economy row and a private lie-flat seat.
You write: Delta is reportedly planning on introducing first class in 2026, though I think the airline should go to the extreme, and introduce huge first class cabins, given its bases in New York (JFK) and Boston (BOS).
I think Delta already has First Class.
Think you have a typo at the end saying Delta is introducing first class, then linking to a JetBlue article.
You may be misinterpreting this a tad bit, what I have heard Is that Delta does plan on increasing Comfort+ cabins on their 739s, which I wanna assume is what they mean by adding more premium seats? Either way I would love to see more first class seats!
keep in mind that DL should have had the MAX 10 arriving this year (but won't) and DL already said that the MAX 10 will only have about 3 more seats than the 737-900ER because of a much larger Comfort Plus cabin.
DL considers Comfort Plus as part of its premium/non-economy cabin definition.
DL could further add more first class seats but the premium group includes everything except standard economy.
and the A350-1000 is very likely to be have one of DL's most premium configurations based on the percentage of seats. the 275 seat 359 is already well above average premium configuration compared to other 359 operators.
Agreed with the misinterpretation. Delta considers Comfort+ to be premium, I think thats what they mean. There are logistical challenges with adding more first class seats (e.g., oven space for additional meals).
The A220s are a great opportunity to add premium seats as you give up only 1 seat per row going from 2x3 to 2x2. The airlines are probably balancing out row spacing and exit rows to determine how many premium seats to add.
Overall - airlines have gotten better at monetizing the extra space and it makes more sense to add more seats. It doesn't need to be every aircraft - you can have a high-F and low-F versions of aircraft and dedicate some to one market versus another.
That's right, Jason. You spotted a typo in Lucky's article. He meant JetBlue not Delta (the link goes to an article about JetBlue).
He usually appreciates it when people points out these issues, as he likes accuracy.
Ben, you make a good point about today's layouts vs the past. 20-30 years ago, we saw a lot more 757s flying domestic routes, with a typical layout of 24 F seats, and of course, very few of those were actually sold. Now the largest domestic narrow bodies at AA, UA and DL have at most 20 F.
@Ben
"Delta is reportedly planning on introducing first class in 2026,"
Probably want to change that to JETBLUE.
At first, I read it as Delta is looking to add international First class, lol.
1) As a few people have pointed out - Delta upgrades people into Comfort +. I would love to see Delta increase actual domestic First Class cabins meaningfully - however, in addition to issues around ovens and meals, increasing F cabins would lead to plans seeing less overall capacity. Will Delta really do that - uncertain.
2) I would love to see one of the major carriers innovate by actually going against the recent trend and making wider seats - whether that is in the form of more F cabins (2+2), some kind of 2+3 configuration instead of 3+3 on narrow bodies, etc.
3) Such a change could actually lead to low cost carriers seeing a bit of a revival as they can stay 3+3 and better compete on price. The major carriers could attempt to charge more for a better experience. Better segmentation all around, healthier margins for everyone.
Premium = Comfort+ pseudocabin
Upgrade = to said pseudocabin
I don’t think this means more first class. High row numbers would be downgraded frequently with swaps.
it is very funny they have tricked most of their regular fliers into using the word "upgrade" to describe complementary comfort+ seating. Like United and AA speak about it more along the lines of free seating into economy plus with status (which all 3 airlines have equally), but Delta literally uses the word "upgrade". its a small difference that has obviously fooled many people with the whole premium schtick.
It's evening in India and still no preliminary crash report. I'm starting to think pilot suicide is the reason
The only reason I book first class on domestic flights is so I don't get gate checked. If I could reserve bin space and pay a fee I'd not do it. Which means they'll likely never allow me to reserve bin space.
Nice to have the seat support obstruct leg room in first class. Also, seats are not much wider with all that shelf space between seats. Not sure what is being gained.
I agree the A220 has the most potential for a very good cabin layout for passengers.
The curse of the 737's and A320's is the horrendous 3x3 layout in economy. (also add in the 787 with 3x3x3 in economy) The A220, 2x3, gives a great option for couples that don't want a 3rd party sitting next to them. First class is also good, with 1-2 seating, in that it works for couples and solo business people who would just as soon sit alone. You could add in some business class lay-flats too, but I don't think they are needed for most US domestic daytime routes. Longer haul international and maybe a few coast to coast red eye's would make good use of lay flats seats though.
If Boeing ever gets around to it's clean sheet 737 redesign, I would really like to see the economy cabin be capable of a 2x3x2 arrangement, or even a 1x3x2 arrangement if you can make the aisle and overhead bin access work. I guess this would basically be a newer design of the 767, but they were great planes to fly in any cabin. Anything but a repeat of 3x3 in economy.
Is anything the FC footprint has shrunk in the last 10-15 years. A decade + ago, the backbone of DL domestic fleet was the 757 with 24-26 FC seats. Today the only narrowbody AC with more than 20 FC seats is the 753.
Ben, so you say "the focus should be on increasing average fares", wow, really? You think that should be the focus? Not improving passenger comfort, safety, etc.?
Agreed. The real "upgrade" is free booze in those seats but even that's marginal with as few cabin service trips the flight attendants make these days.
United for international has added a huge amount of Business class seats look at the 767s and the new 787-9 are going to have a crazy # of lay flats.
Even the upcoming A321xlr will have lots of Lay flats.
Obviously more domestic lay flats from NY will be nice and perhaps at the 787 are delivered United can put the 767 on domestic routes. Fingers crossed.
Delta should serve more than snacks on some flights shorter than 900 miles. I used to get a hot sandwich on LGA to ATL
Haha first of all respect for the meek mill / going bad reference. But no. Solidly middle class for my city. Usual move is book main, auto upgrade to comfort+, then upgrade to first in the window if available. Sometimes pay cash for that upgrade if I really, really want it for that trip (2hrs or more).
Live humbly at home, keep day to day living expenses light. Just loathe the little indignities of flying cattle car and try not to.
Just starting to see the deck stacked against us more and more - starting to feel like a casino in the air. Tired of the foolishness
To be far . .AA lead the way with Transcon A321 planes in 2014. DL is better the economy doesn't go south.
and Midwest Airlines had one of the industry's more notable large premium cabin strategies - well before the AA A321T
Will you discuss the new Delta SLC-LIM winter seasonal route? Seems like a really interesting one that not many were expecting.
Correct. The purpose of a large corporation is to make money. Everything it does serves that purpose.
I doubt they will fit more than 44/46 seats in their A350-1000
It won't be anything crazy like AA B787-9p or B773 or jawbreaking like BA B773, ANA B773, JAL A35K, United B773 or B789, AF B773.
Funny, I find the service & amenities in " pseudo class " a " premium ' experience !
... lol.
If anyone can add first seats, it's Delta. The FA unions will fight AA and UA tooth and nail from adding more seats in first. They already shut down UA from adding more first to the A320's. It would be terrible if they had to come through the cabin more than once. I'm certain adding another FA would be a deal killer for the airlines. Can't make that much money on 4 more first seats. Unions had their historical reasons, but they generally just make everything ridiculously uneconomic and painful for passengers and airlines now.
What happened to your British Alter-ego AeroB? Did you get bored of living this particular second life?
So much silence from AeroB lately...
DELTA DOES NOT OFFER FIRST CLASS CABINS.
HOWEVER, DELTA DOES OFF BUSINESS CLASS CABINS.
AMERICN AIRLINES IS THE ONLY AIRLINE THAT OFFERS A FIRST CLASS CABIN ON IT 777-300
AA OFFERS A MUCH BETTER TRANSCON PRODUCT.
757 AND 767 OLD.
WAIT TO SEE WHATS COMING AT AA TIMMY. YOUR GOIN TO HAVE A STROKE!
@Ben ---> You opened this article by saying (writing), in part, that "...there’s no denying that the demand for premium cabin travel isn’t just a fad, but instead, is a more structural change to consumer demand. People value nice travel experiences more than in the past..."
I'm not 100 percent sure that is true. People ALWAYS like to be comfortable, to have a "nice travel experience." Isn't it possible that Economy -- with in some cases as little as 29" or 30" inches of pitch -- has just gotten so crappy, that people are willing to pay more simply to be comfortable? I fly in the Exit Row over 90 percent of the time I fly in Economy/Coach/Main Cabin. I'm 5'11". I'm not a giant, but I've got bad knees and 8" of leg room is a lot better than 4". If the Exit Row isn't available, I will upgrade to Economy Plus (or whatever name they're calling it now). Flying in domestic first is only if my upgrade clears; flying international long-haul is in Business Class with lie-flat seats purchased with points...
I 100% agree with you, the only difference being I’m 6’6”. Economy is not an option unless the leg is 60 minutes or less. I move heaven and earth to sit in an exit row or in extra leg room economy. Business/First only if it’s four hours or longer and there is real value, i.e. the upcharge is around $1 per minute or so.
Do any of you guys remember the days of Dl l1011s that had a (-or -) 38 seat F cabin? They were the bomb!
The only reason they’re doing it is reduce the weight of the A330/350 by removing coach seats and lower capacity to get alittle more range out these aircraft. WE BOUGHT THE WRONG PLANES!!!!! We should’ve bought 787s and 777Xs
I have a different view of statement framing, "People value nice travel experiences more than in the past"
IMHO, the airline experience has degraded to the point of people recognizing that they need to pay more to get away from the suck.
Cabin densification, poor customer service, devaluation of loyalty, long lines at clubs have me actively seeking to fly less. When I DO fly, I buy First on a nonstop on the most convenient route, and minimize my exposure to the airline part of my travel experience.
It's interesting to see how this race to the bottom has evolved, but I'd say that the tastes of flying public are consistent, but the airlines are the ones changing the experience / forcing the shift. If you gave me AA's extra legroom on all seats on all planes like they had 20+ years ago, I'd be a happy camper in economy all day long.
that is a very fair assessment of the situation except that AA quickly backtracked from more room throughout coach and B6 and WN are walking away from their greater legroom economy section(s).
Economy air travel is a commodity that for many is price sensitive enough that people will take connecting flights to get the lowest price. Even in economy, there are amenities that airlines add in order to reward high fare paying economy passengers.
Business and premium cabin travel is built around a schedule and product premium.
The same aircraft has a number of different price and product drivers.
Other airlines have tried to increase the size of premium cabin seating. Ben asks the question if DL will add more domestic first class seats and, while the jury is out, they will certainly add more extra legroom economy on domestic aircraft and are increasing the size of business class and premium economy cabins, the latter of which DL has had larger than other US airlines for quite some time, on international longhaul aircraft.
Delta's strategy of being a more premium airline has to include offering more premium seats so it is a given that some aircraft will get higher proportions of premium seats. For domestic aircraft, it is fairly easy to add extra legroom economy seats in place of standard economy seats. Even adding another row or two of first class is relatively easy compared to adding more business class international seats
You're are suffering from chronic brainwashing.
Firstly the article isn't about their widebodies, it about their narrowbodies.
The A330/A350 is a perfect aircraft for what Delta requires of it.
The B787 have a terrible range capability compared to the A350, Boeing initially expected/marketed the program to reach 15,200km. The current longest range variant barely gets to 14,000km. Qantas was able to fly to London from Perth with the B787 because of the very low capacity (any Airspace closure in the Middle East will suddenly require a stoping point). United couldn't get the Aircraft to even fly regularly from LAX to Singapore, Singapore Airlines fly daily using their non ULR A350.
The A350 initially marketed as 14,800km now gets 15,750km - 16,650km. Most LR and ULR fights today are on the A350.
The B777x is uncertified. The B777-9 can only manage 13,500km similar to it's predecessor B777-300ER 13,690km.
The B777-8 can match the A350 range but it will never be as efficient (per seat) compared to the A350. It will be at least beyond 2030 before we see a B777-8 in service.
Boeing needs to increase the B787 MTOW, re-engineer the landing gear before that aircraft can be a serious contender to the A350 when it comes to range.
The B777x on the other hand wasn't really built for range, it was built with capacity in mind. The A350 is a perfect in between, bigger than the B787 but smaller than the B777x with better range compared to the other two.
The A330 was it made for long haul, from the first/initial model from 1990s. It's perfect for anything below 10,000km but can absolutely do anything mission the B777-9 is capable of doing (13,500km)
Nothing screams NOT premium more than seats without screens. Even if they add seats, AA simply cannot compete.
Ummm free booze, sense of status/I’ve arrived feeling, a meal or at least yummy snacks and just the overall ‘first class lifestyle.’
Pre-pandemic, DL had a number of "exception" markets to the 900-mile rule. JFK-ATL was one, and there were a few inter-hub routes as well. But that was also when DL was more accommodating in allowing you to book three-leg flights (though PHF may have helped there, being ATL-only), and three mid-range flights with no meal could get a little touchy if you end up with tight connections.
(This issue is one part of why I generally try to avoid tight connections - a quick meal in the lounge at least fills that gap and means I don't have to grab a meal at my origin.)