A few weeks ago there was a serious incident onboard an Air France Boeing 777, where the pilots claimed that the flight controls weren’t working correctly. This was understandably classified as a serious incident, so a thorough investigation is being performed. So far the findings aren’t what you might have expected.
Continue reading: About That Air France Flight Where Pilots Lost Control…
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
The fact the pilots were not in sync as to who had command of the plane is an issue irrespective of the plane’s performance.
If the pilot and first officer cannot agree as to who is in control and/or recognize the rank of one over the other and fight on the controls is a serious cockpit safety issue…full stop.
you seem disappointed it’s not an issue with Boeing, and grudgingly suggest it may be a problem with obvious pilot error, but still might be a problem with the aircraft, and and we should be great full it might not be a problem with the aircraft. But still might be. Jesus.
Speaking of plane incidents: what happened to the China plane crash? I haven't heard a peep since 3 weeks ago when they found both black boxes.......makes me think something with the pilots, otherwise the airline and country would be screaming to the heavens about Boeing......
Serious issue with CRM. It's pretty simple. "I have control of the aircraft." It's a common command and it needs to be emphatic. This is very much like AF 447 in that two pilots were basically countering the others actions. A luckier outcome compared to 447 where they actually succeeded in flying a perfectly good aircraft into the sea.
Incredible. AF needs to seriously address these issues. You would think given their past they would have addressed this. Apparently not. Kudos to the Captain though for recovering the aircraft despite a clearly incompetent F/O.
Air France seems to have some issues with their pilots, at least compared to a place like British Airways or Lufthansa. This is very, very basic stuff. A complete failure by the crew. Luckily it didn't end in disaster like 447. That a mistake this simple happened after the disaster of 447 is damning on Air France.
Top 5 first-class product doesn't mean much when the seat is on fire on the ground.
My first thought was back to that Air France crash in the Atlantic where the FO killed everyone. Was good to see I'm not alone in my thinking.
I agree with many of the comments here about poor CRM at AF. It appears that some first officers at AF and perhaps elsewhere want to play heros and unilaterally take action without the Captain's authority or awareness.
This is frightening as the whole purpose of CRM is that the crew are always on the same page and always following one leader (not 1 captain and 1 wanna-be captain?). Examples of superb CRM are the QF31 A380 incident in Singapore where the Captain's excellent leadership together with his highly effective co-pilots worked together to safely land that injured A380. That despite there being a senior Captain on the flightdeck who was actually reviewing the operating Captain during that flight. Ego and rank were set aside for proper process.
Doesn't appear that AF's co-pilots have a grasp on ego and rank given this incident and AF447 and perhaps many others we don't know about.
Nothing wrong with the 777 (as expected. the plane is as reliable as they come, history is proof), just AF being AF.
In my view (private general aviation pilot here) there were two issues, both related to Crew Resource Management.
Firstly, a pilot should be familiar with the reactions of the plane to his/her input, even more so in standard situations with no adverse influences. Secondly, and more gravely, there is a standard command to take over the controls, which is "my controls". I learnt that in the first lesson with my instructor when starting my flight training. I'm really (negatively) surprised the captain has forgotten it. Just commanding "go around" does not include a change of controls.
My immediate reaction when reading the title was 'which one', and then when reading it, I was also immediately having flashbacks to the report on 447. Thankfully this one ended up with no bodies in the sea.
I swore to never fly air chance again after reading the findings of 447 anyway, but, aside from the strange inputs by the FO, that this culture and p*ss poor training still exists within AF is worrying.
Hell....in my very first flying lesson in a cessna, 'I have control' and 'you have control' is drilled into you.
Basic bloody airmanship.
I find this simply unbelievable. These are not student/rookie pilots flying a regional route on a turboprop; we are talking here about a premium wide-body route right flown by supposedly Air France's most senior and experienced pilots, and they do this? What the hell?
Like most of you, I also thought of AF447 upon reading reports about this incident. And AF447 was a nightmare accident and the thoughts of what the poor passengers went through on it are haunting. In that case, and in this one, pilot error is to blame. While AF447 and this incident are more than a decade apart, the fact that the same crew dynamics and apparent discrepancies in skill caused both occurrences is enough to conclude that AF has lackluster crew training and seems to have a number of pilots who aren't good at flying aircraft.
Yeah, La Primiere may be fab - but personally I'll pass because all of the caviar in the world won't compensate for potentially having to go through what those poor souls on AF447 did.
The first officer should have surrender. Surprised he did not given the history.
Judging that the passengers were asleep in 447 and the stall happened at night, noone of them knew what happened.
Hell, not even Bonin knew he was pulling the stick back.
The boxes were quite damaged so they were taken to the US for repairs. Now they were sent to China, where they're being studied.
Am I the only person who thought this from the beginning? He says Stop stop stop on the audio, why do people assume he's talking to the plane which doesn't comprehend verbal speech and not the person beside him who, you know, DOES???
Doubt the pax were asleep after the initial stall buffet. That would be hard to sleep through.
Instructor Pilot (I) briefing to student pilot (S) on very first training flight:
I: When I say "my airplane" or "I have control" or something similar, release the yoke and respond "your airplane" or "YOU have control". Do you understand?
S: YES SIR!!!
Funny thing. Every time I mention my reluctance to fly AF due to their training and history, there are always AF fanboys telling me how all that is in the past and AF is now safe. Sorry but an airlines culture doesn’t change so easily, and more than an “amazing lounge and F experience”, safely getting me to my destination is my top priority.
I mean Asiana is a major premium airline and their pilots could not perform a visual approach landing in SFO either. An Air Canada flight almost landed on an occupied taxiway at SFO, and im' sure those pilots wern't rookies either. Or an Air Transat flight that ran out of gas over the atlantic because the pilots just ignored the fact fuel was disappearing at an obscene rate. Point being, while many US-based airline pilots have thousands of hours of flight experience, airlines in foreign countries where there aren't many opportunities to be a pilot, the skill level and experience is going to be less and making dumb mistakes like this isn't unheard of.
I put this squarely on the captain. Also AF for sub-par training. So much automation and so little reinforcement of basic cockpit discipline. Until a pilot states, "My Controls" the other pilot is in charge of the flight controls. Period. Calling a Go Around does not change whom is the pilot flying and the pilot monitoring. As a Captain with 23 years in the cockpit this is an SOP that starts at hour 1 in flight training.
This is simply ridiculous. These are two people sitting next to each other and they can't communicate?
And yeah, I see a lot of comments how it's the first lesson to say "my controls" but really you don't even need to take a single flying lesson - I'm sure half of the country knows to say this simply from watching "Sully".
I do sincerely hope that if the preliminary report is confirmed, both guys get fired.
WTF! This same scenario could have played out tragic like AF447. It boils down to poor flight crew management. When there was an issue, the captain should have said "my aircraft" so that they wouldn't be making opposing flight control inputs. Scary.
So in the time it took to perform a rescue go-around, was there a heated discussion to sort out who actually was in control?
The captain and FO should both be grounded and undertake intensive retraining at the very least. Mental competence and temperement should also be evaluated.
Or fired if there are qualifed candidates waiting for promotion.
As a 33 year Capt/Check Airman on B767/757 with similar flight control systems to that aircraft. It disturbs me this happened. The training of the FO is obviously lacking and the Capt, possibly. Systems knowledge were obviously lacking in both seats.
Well Boeing does suck, so I’ll agree with you on that.
But this article did not go there, so not sure what you’re smoking. Can I have some please??
Well, there’s a trail of examples through history where experienced US pilots made stupid and deadly errors! Nothing to do with Nationality mate! Those AF pilots would’ve had many thousands of hours between them.
How does this happen on a Boeing aircraft? On an Airbus, you have joysticks but Boeings have massive controls between your legs that are synchronized between both pilots!
I can see how this could happen. A first officer at best gets to make one approach and landing on a trip like this. On longer flights requiring 3 or 4 pilots, 2 of them never get to shoot an approach and land. It’s easy to have a pilot that has little time in the aircraft and even less time at the controls. It still comes down to the captain acting like a captain but saying “I have the airplane” doesn’t always mean the FO will release the controls. Check out Atlas Air 3591 that crashed a few years ago going into IAH.
What I don't understand (I am no pilot, had only once in my live the luck to take control of a Boing Stearman under instruction of an airshow pilot - what a cool machine) is why such a high-tech airplane does not give an audible warning when the inputs of the two pilots are clearly contrary to each other - somethin like:
--------------------------
Warning, Warning: Input controls are inconsistent.
--------------------------
This could remind the pilots in such a stressful situation (they know for sure instinctively that their lives are in jeopardy) that one of them must take over control audibly with the official "I take control of the aircraft" and the other to let go of the control inputs with "you have control over the aircraft" (as I have learned here in this discussion).
Having taught the Boeing 777, the likelihood of a control malfunction of this manner seems unlikely. What I DID NOT hear is the captain saying, "I have the aircraft" and the F/O saying "You have the aircraft."... or Air France's version of the same. That seems to be the culprit. There are only two people who know EXACTLY what happened. Everything else is based on CVR and FCR data. My company will have both pilots in for a course in CRM plus some heavy duty simulator time!
Agreed. Having taught the 777 and currently an Airbus instructor, this whole scenario seems to be a lack of CRM. I don't know about your airline but at mine, CRM is beaten into our heads from INDOC! Even with the FBW system, the 777 has the heavy spring "override" on the control column/yoke. The Airbus has a momentary side stick override and a permanent lockout should it be needed. If you've done any simulator instructing, you (like me) have seen novices try to fight each other with some severe "rock 'n roll" and each thinking that the other is flying and the poor jet has no "say so"! When I listen to the first departure briefing between new crews, I listen to the CAPTAIN'S "open door" tone during the "abnormals" briefing. I better hear something to the wording, "positive transfer of controls with 'I have the aircraft/you have the aircraft' and "double pointing" of any altitude/heading changes plus a verbal "how I'm gonna execute" the change and response. That is critiqued either "on the spot" if it's a training scenario or in the debrief if it's a check ride (depending on the severity...if you will).
Honestly, Air France had 2 majors accident in less than 10 years, Concorde (July 2000) and AF447 (June 2009)
Don't forget that Air France pilots are the most well paid in the world when you compare their salary to their monthly flying time.
This kind of mistake (having both pilots holding the command and not communicated each other) should be absolutely unforgivable.
It's a shame !