Hot Take: Bulk Hotel Toiletries Won’t Kill You

Filed Under: Hotels

Yesterday I wrote about how Hyatt will be eliminating single-use toiletries globally in the coming months, following the lead of IHG and Marriott. This topic is incredibly controversial. Personally it’s a topic on which I’ve evolved, and I’m in favor of this — it seems like an easy way to eliminate the use of millions of plastic bottles per year.

In this post I wanted to talk a bit about the defense used by some in favor of single-use toiletries. I think some of the reasons are legitimate, and some of the reasons leave me scratching my head.

A Lot Of People Love Single-Use Toiletries

I think there are lots of legitimate reasons for people to be in favor of single-use toiletries, or at a minimum to miss them when they’re gone. I don’t blame you if:

  • You’re worried the quality of products will worsen
  • You like to take to take toiletries home with you
  • You think this is a cost saving measure, and is being blamed on the environment
  • You thought this was a great branding opportunity for hotels, and that’s going out the window

Strange Concerns Of Bulk Toiletries

In this post I wanted to address some of the defenses that I see of single-use toiletries, which I just can’t wrap my head around.

When View from the Wing wrote about these changes he called them “disgusting,” and provides four supporting arguments. Let’s go through each of them.

Bulk Toiletries Are Unhygienic

Gary argues that bulk toiletries are rarely cleaned properly and thoroughly by housekeeping. To support that he links to a post showing one poorly cleaned bulk toiletry dispenser.

Is that the basis on which these are “rarely cleaned properly?” Look, I’m a selective germaphobe as well, but this concerns me no more than anything else. I’m not going to stop washing my hands on planes, or in public bathrooms, or using the airplane tray table, or anything else, even though arguably that’s way more “disgusting.”

I’d love to be proven wrong on this, by the way. There are all kinds of studies of housekeeping not doing a great job cleaning, but does anyone have any data to support that bulk dispensers in particular aren’t cleaned well?

Bulk Toiletries Are More Likely To Be Tampered With

This is the argument that I hear constantly, and that I find strangest of all. People argue that bulk toiletries are more likely to be tampered with, though I don’t follow the logic of this:

  • You can also tamper with single-use toiletries
  • Bulk toiletries in theory have locks, so should actually be less likely to be tampered with
  • I live in fear of a lot of things (ghosts under my bed, the future of Shawn Mendes’ and Camila Cabello’s relationship, and many other pressing issues), but oddly in my day-to-day life I don’t ever wonder if the soap I’m using was tampered with… and I wash my hands constantly, in restaurants, planes, hotels, and just about everywhere else

Is the argument here that people would tamper with something with bad intent? If so, wouldn’t they want to tamper with a dispenser in a public area that a lot more people would use?

Bulk Toiletries Encourage Use Of Counterfeit Products

Gary asks if we expect that hotels in China will use legitimate branded products when guests don’t even see the refill bottle. To that I’d say who needs counterfeit products when hotels are making up their own toiletry brands?

Sheraton uses “Le Grand Bain,” which only exists at… Sheraton (and for the record, I actually sorta like it).

I would expect that if I stay at a Park Hyatt or St. Regis or Rosewood in China I would still get proper high end toiletries. And if I’m staying at a mid-range or lower-end hotel, even if there were counterfeit products, how much worse could they be than the usual ones?

Bulk Toiletries Are More Likely To Be Left Empty

Gary says that this has already happened to him on multiple occasions. I don’t remember it ever happening to me, but if it does happen, this seems like a training issue, rather than an issue with bulk toiletries as such?

Housekeepers have a process for cleaning rooms, and part of that process, presumably, is checking how full the dispensers are. If they’re not doing that, they’re not doing their jobs.

I will say that I’ve been in countless situations where my single-use toiletry bottles were nearly empty and weren’t replaced, so I had to call down for more.

Bottom Line

I’m not here to say that we can’t be sad about single-use toiletries being eliminated, and I’m not a mouthpiece for hotels who is going to claim that they’re doing this for the environment rather than because it represents cost savings.

No matter how you slice it, though, this will eliminate hundreds of millions of toiletry bottles per year, and will eliminate millions of pounds of plastic waste.

I did feel like it was necessary to address some of the stranger concerns that some people have about bulk toiletries, which are in my opinion a stretch at best, and unfounded at worst.

What’s your take on all of this?

Comments
  1. In my opinion it reflects a current fad in Western society: things getting worse and less free. It’s almost always presented as an environmental measure, but in the end it has to do with upselling, cost cutting or plain old control over the plebs.

  2. I’m with Gary on this one….people are weirdos.

    I’m sure 99.9% of the time these will be fine. I guess it’s your risk tolerance on being the 0.0001% who ends up shampooing their hair with Nair.

  3. I think that the single use products were often counterfeit. I’m not sure that they’re any more likely to be faked now that they’re in bulk.

    I was searching for a Wall Street Journal article from a long time ago that was about these industrial sludge brokers who would trade big tankers full of kind of unknown liquid detergents. Their “go to” way of unloading it was always to sell it to someone who put it into the individual bottles and called it “shampoo.” My Google skills don’t seem to be up to finding it right now, though.

  4. @ Shaun — But how is that not a risk with the current situation? Can’t single-use toiletries be tampered with even more easily?

  5. I am not terribly concerned about the hygiene issues. But I strongly dislike that the religion of environmentalism imposes its nonsense rituals on the rest of us.

  6. “Gary argues that bulk toiletries are rarely cleaned properly and thoroughly by housekeeping. To support that he links to a post showing one poorly cleaned bulk toiletry dispenser.”

    That’s correct, that’s all I linked to, because I’ve written extensively on this subject in the past, including citing an NIH study when I wrote about the Marriott move (It opens, “Bulk-soap-refillable dispensers are prone to extrinsic bacterial contamination”, not linking here so the comment doesn’t go into moderation).

    Ben, you suggest that these dispensers aren’t more likely to be tampered with I’ve shown several photos of it happening. It’s purely hypothetical to suggest that single use toiletries might be tampered with – but it’s highly unlikely they’d be tampered with *by another guest* as bulk can be.

    You may “expect that if I stay at a Park Hyatt or St. Regis or Rosewood in China I would still get proper high end toiletries” however use of counterfeit products is a much-reported on phenomenon in upmarket Chinese hotels including at top U.S. brands. My point is this makes it even easier, since they don’t need the branded packaging.

    I’m glad you haven’t gotten in the shower to find your bulk shampoo empty! It isn’t fun when it happens. If housekeeping were to forget the single use bottles, I’d at least notice it before getting in the shower. Is it a training issue? Absolutely. But it’s something much more likely to be an issue with bulk than single use, and much more of an inconvenience for the guest when it does happen.

  7. This is just people bitching about change. People hate change. After a month of this everyone will move on. “Hygiene issues” here remind me of the “drugged candy at halloween” phase we went through in the mid-2000s.

  8. I am a supporter of bulk toiletries, but I do hope they consider which containers are best suited to people with mobility constraints or older guests who may have arthritic hands. Neither of those descriptions apply to me, but I do find the “pump on top” bottle often to r quire a level of precision and attention that is far greater than the containers common in Aloft properties which have a very large button on the front, allowing you to even hit it it with your elbow.

  9. @lucky i can just see the headline “floriday man finds *&%t in the hotel dispenser” mini toiletries are changed with every guest, bulk ones are just stting in the bathroom from one guest to the next.

  10. A lot of the hysteria, especially that coming from Gary, can be adequately responded to with the meme of the week:

    Ok boomer.

  11. “You can also tamper with single-use toiletries” –

    true but by who? hotel staff? an ordinary guest is not gonna temper with them.

    any one guest can ‘fix’ the bulk ones (locked or not) & affect tons of guests after him.

  12. Pete – I’m not sure that anything in this example is “getting worse” or “less free”. Are hotels saying “we’re using lower quality toiletries to save money”? That would be “getting worse”. Are they saying “we’re eliminating all toiletries to reduce costs”? That would be “less free”. I’m sure there is some financial component to this but I think the general desire in Western society to be more environmentally conscious isn’t a fad – it’s a long overdue necessity. Most airlines and many restaurants have done away with plastic straws and stirrers. Bamboo stirrers and paper straws actually cost more than the plastic versions. But they are doing it because more and more consumers realize that our disposable plastic society simply isn’t sustainable. Hyatt properties alone would generate close to 1/4 billion mini bottles a year when thinking about shampoo, conditioner, body wash, and lotion. This is the right thing to do for the planet and, if Hyatt saves a few bucks, good for them. I’m not sure how this has anything to do with upselling or “plain old control over the plebs [sic]”. You can certainly bring your own toiletries and, unlike bringing personal booze on a cruise, Hyatt won’t charge you for it.

  13. Most of your arguments assume a competent housekeeping staff which you also cited was, on numerous occasions, not always the norm.

    I think Gary’s arguments are much stronger than yours, and as a 200 night a year guest at Marriott, I hate this change. They are piloting the new products (in single use containers rather than bulk) at a hotel I frequent (the “this works” brand) and they are horrendous. I’ve started traveling with my own toiletries.

  14. My gym has high-end (Kiehl’s) bulk toiletries for convenience if you’re showering after working out — and NOT ONCE did any of these fears enter my mind. Of course now they are in my head unfortunately :-(. The only thing that ever occurred to me was that people might bring their own small bottles and fill them up with Kiehl’s products, which I suppose is the equivalent of taking extra mini-bottles off housekeeping’s cart.

    I mean seriously, can’t people fixate on something more important? Who cares if it’s environmental or cost-savings or a combination thereof?

  15. I tend to stay at Aloft Hotels quite regularly. They’ve used Bliss branded bulk shampoo/conditioner and shower gel for years and I’ve not had any issues with them. Quite the contrary, I’ve always found their setup clean, consistent, and it smells great. I think a lot of issues will boil down to the quality of hotel you’re staying at. As Lucky says, there are lots of issues with single use toiletries as well.

    The one thing I’ll always ask is that we continue to receive a small single use bar of soap. Put it in a recyclable paper container or something. I find a lot of value in them, and really don’t want to reuse one. That’s something Aloft does very well. Bulk liquids, single use soap bar. I don’t see a problem with that scenario.

  16. If you defend the constant production of single use plastic knowing what the world now knows, then your inability to think about the impact you have on the world is intolerable.

    Think about this, every single piece of plastic ever created in history still exists on the planet today.

    Humans are a cancer that absorb the natural environment and leave nothing but destruction in their wake. Of all animals on the planet, they are responsible for the three largest waves of extinction of animal and plant species the world has EVER seen including the one we are in now.

    That is quite a track record. So enjoy your germ free soap kids in your individually wrapped plastic and throw it in the trash when you’re done – environmentalism is not a religion because it does not require you to rely on faith but simply on scientific fact. Your arguments against this are pathetic.

  17. @grrizzly: In this case I don’t think hotels are actually embracing it for environmental reasons; it is cost saving pure & simple. “Environmental reasons” provide a good cover.

  18. I would say having the dispensers be empty, or having two of the same thing, is fairly common. It’s happened to me several times. I am not hugely against the dispensers per se, but the hotels really need to make sure they are actually refilling the (nasty, mold-infested) bottles.

  19. “Incredibly controversial” ?
    What should we call world pollution or global warming ? Fake news ? no controversy ?

    Back on topic, people are irresponsible and have no idea in how much waste these individual toileteries are, both in terms of unused products and containers.

    For those who are scared of germs or hysteric about possible anthrax or a bomb hidden therein, bring your own stuff ! Naturally, due to terrorist scarecrows, security limitations on airlines will require you to work a little, get bulk bottles at home and transfer some of them at each journey.

    And since we are at it, there also is a remote chance that all these travels and hotel business are totally unnecessary.
    So message to all and no one in particular : take a look at your carbon imprint externalized onto the world and to next generations, if you don’t shiver means you are not quite aware yet of the cost 🙂
    Or that you don’t care.

  20. GG makes a good point.

    Is it really cost saving if the new setup means it’s easy for people to load up their own containers to take some home?

  21. The complaints many of these people often seem to suggest (either outwardly, or silently) the incorrect belief that climate change is fake. They may not even say directly it in their posts or comments, but you can often get subtle hints if you look closely. These people often feel that something that is good for the environment, ESPECIALLY if it causes an inconvenience to them, is ‘against muh freedoms,’ or all part of a scam by businesses to make more money under the auspices of the environment, or part of some vast liberal conspiracy to…… ???? make the planet cleaner?

    An argument like “multi-use packaging can be tampered with” is just as stupid as when someone says “single-use packaging can be tampered with.” Both arguments are true but both are stupid. OF COURSE multi-use packaging can be tampered with, and OF COURSE people are going to be able to find extreme examples of scenarios where something is not as it should be. Yes, you’ll probably see someone post at some post in the future that there was semen in their shampoo. The odds of this happening to anyone making this arguments is one in a billion, but they will use that ONE example to say that the whole thing should be blocked. Of course, these same people will continue to do the same things everyday that are more disgusting or more dangerous. I have seen posts where people have found hair, rodents, roaches, or even pieces of human fingers in their food. These same people likely eat at restaurants without fear.

    Long story short, these boomers are starting to die off and they are being replaced with younger people that truly recognize the emergency that our planet faces. Unfortunately, these boomers are still represented at the highest levels of federal and state governments. Eventually, things will naturally start to turn around, hopefully not before it is too late and our planet is completely ruined.

  22. @ Lucky – couple of points that make bulk toiletries more sketchy IMO:

    1) I generally trust housekeeping not to tamper with stuff. I don’t trust the person who used my hotel room before me. And if there are holdover single-use items, it’s more likely that I’ll notice a difference between a tampered item and the replenished new ones.

    2) Although there are bulk toiletries in public restrooms, generally at decent hotels these public restrooms are multi-person restrooms, making it more risky to tamper with items there than it would be within the privacy of one’s hotel room.

    Still, the single-use plastics do appear to be a major source of waste and some degree of (still very small) risk may be worth it to get rid of them. But it seems to me that we should at least acknowledge that this does generate some increased risk of shenanigans.

  23. On a recent trip to Germany and Austria, two of my hotels used bulk toiletries and dispensers in the sink and the shower. Honestly, they were fine and I wish more hotels would do that. It’s cheaper for the hotels in the long run to buy in bulk.

    Let’s be honest, if you’re travelling a bunch, you’re already taking soap and shampoo with you, either in your checked bag or filling up those 3 oz bottles. I normally do because I hate bar soap and that’s all they offer for body wash/hand soap at the hotels.

    I think most people will be fine, but it’s those few loud voices that will complain about it. All you have to say them next time they complain: Ok boomer.

  24. As someone who is firmly against the plastic straw banning, I don’t have a problem with the move to bulk toiletries. The plastic straw bans were largely mandated from above, and the paper straws are actually an inferior product, and little more than a symbolic gesture of inconvenience in terms of reducing waste. Moving to having to ask for straws I see as a reasonable compromise until a bio-friendly straw that actually works is available. However the small bottles don’t contain enough product for the average woman’s use, then the average man might use a quarter of the bottle and then the whole thing gets thrown out the next day. Also the hotels are doing this voluntarily, so if people don’t like it, they can reverse course, or come up with a new solution.

  25. Gary from VFTW shows the values that he has. I think older people prefer that things remain the same because not once he shows any concern about the amount of plastic the hotel industry creates. It is not a problem him.

    And as it happens in capitalism, there will always be someone trying to get some advantage out of it. But this is not an excuse to keep things the way they have been, right?

    I like to use my own shampoo and facial cleanser so I have those bottles that I can take with me onboard. Or I put the big bottles in my checked baggage.

  26. The best service would be to have both.

    The second best would be to have individual supplies.

    I really hope individual bar soap remains. I don’t think group bar soap will catch on though, don’t laugh. In the 1970’s Soviet Union (previous name of Russia, for practical purposes, but not exactly), they had soft drink machines with a public cup. You put coins in the machine and water would come out to rinse the cup. Drink would then come out. You drank it and put the cup back there. I saw it on TV.

  27. I hate this change. Not a fan of the dispensers. Also I strongly prefer bar soap to body wash.
    Can’t they just recycle the little bottles and keep them!

  28. As a frequent traveler, who has always brought my own toiletries with me, and will continue to do so, this change has no impact on me whatsoever. Having stayed in many of the top properties worldwide, I’ve generally found (almost) all of the hotel-provided toiletries to be inferior to what I would typically use at home. Hence, why I bring my own. But I do find the angst that folks are exhibiting about this change to be very amusing!

  29. To everyone calling it virtue signalling:

    So what? Why can’t it be both good for the environment and a cost-cutting measure? They’re not mutually exclusive.

    If your issue is that hotels aren’t calling it a cost-cutting measure then you must be outraged every hour of every day by every. single. company. you. buy. anything. from. Companies are constantly streamlining and cutting costs and calling it something else. Get over it.

  30. This is one of two things; a cost cutting mechanism for hotels and a response to the faux outraged society complaining about plastic materials.

  31. You can’t spit or ejaculate in a restaurant bathroom very easily. In hotel bathroom it is a lot easier. That is why people are afraid.

    I’m not against a properly locked bulk toiletries, fyi.

  32. Gary’s typical sensational headlines at work (maybe he also writes headlines for other media outlets). The fact is, Hyatt has been this way for at least the past 2 months at the properties I’ve stayed at in the US, and I don’t care. People need to get over it. Nobody is making you use those toiletries, nor are they making you stay at that hotel.

    People didn’t complain about Element/Aloft doing it the entire time they were an SPG brand, but as soon as Marriott takes over, all of a sudden it’s the biggest problem in the world. I feel bad for people who have this much time to worry about things like this, there’s many more important problems in the world.

  33. For as long as I’ve been travelling every single shower in an Airport lounge has had bulk toiletries in it. Where’s the cries of gross about this? Is it that you all think that if someone is a gold frequent flyer or in business class they are less likely to ejaculate or pee into a shampoo bottle? Maybe you just need to start booking into better quality hotels or only into suites where there’s less chance of “common” people having used the same bathrooms as you.

  34. I’m with Gary on this one. A hotel I was staying at in Shanghai did not properly lock down the bulk toiletries in the shower. Someone had put some green food coloring into the shampoo bottle thinking it would be funny. Had to get out of the shower mid-wash and call front desk to complain, and had them come up and change out the bottle for me. From then on – I’ve always brought my own individual sized toiletries with me.

    Perhaps they can find a more eco-friendly solution like those condiments packets or something?

  35. Sorry, this is still a bs change, designed to look environmental. For those (like Lucky) who are so on-board with this, I better never see you guys with single-use plastic water bottles! While I use reusable water bottles, this toiletry change is cheap & gross. There is NO REASON the mini bottles can’t be biodegradable. Full stop.

  36. People touch the remotes, sit on the couch (which don’t cleaned anytime anyone checks out), sleep on beds with ‘rewashed’ sheets and towels, put their clothes in closets, but they worry about bulk toiletries???

    Do you wash your hands in public toilets at the airport? In a restaurant? What do you think you are using?

    the answer is plain and simple: You like to take to take toiletries home with you

  37. Not a topic I’m losing a lot of sleep over but I will strongly disagree with lucky’s contention that you can also tamper with single use bottles.

    A previous customer of a room has access to bulk items and may potentially tamper with them but they have no chance of tampering with single use items that will be placed in your room. They would have to steal the cart, open the bottles and tamper with each one. Of course the staff could but the staff could do all kinds of things and this would rank on the bottom of things I’d worry about the staff tampering with.

  38. My gym offers bulk Elemis toiletries which I use quite happily, the dispensers are always locked to the wall and beyond interference because it’s gang showers.

    I will add my voice though to wanting bar soap in hotels, a morning or evening shower in a hotel is a very different experience to a fast wash off and rinse with thirty other guys!

  39. People are going to mostly fall into 1 of 2 categories here. Those who like the convenience of mini toiletries, and those who don’t mind using the dispensers.

    Those of you who for the dispensers, I have 1 question— have you been bringing your own toiletries EVERY time you stay @ a hotel? BC you tell us it’s good for the environment, so obviously you must have been bringing your own all these years.

    When it comes to the environment, people (mostly) care only when the changes do not affect or inconvenience them.

    This obviously doesn’t inconvenience alot of you on here, so you all agree ban them. We are talking about a few bottles per year for the average person per year. Ounces of plastic compared the average 200+ lbs people consume per year.

    Lucky flies more miles per year, then I will my entire lifetime. I’m pretty sure his flying is more detrimental to the environment than my 3 mini bottles I get 5 nights a year. I don’t get on his case to stop traveling– it’s his life, he should live it like he wants.

    What if I said, people could only fly once per year, or people could only buy a new car once every 15 years. Whoa— the same people against mini shampoo bottles would now start calling BS. Why? Because it inconveniences them.

    Nothing is worse than the person who flies 100,000 miles per year, tell me, I can no longer have mini shampoo bottles, because those bottles are a detriment and we should all do our part in helping the environment.

    Nothing is worse than the person who buys a new hybrid every 3 years (250 lbs of plastic in each car,) and drives 15 miles to work tell me I’m a detriment to society because I don’t own a hybrid. Even though I walk to work and have had the same car for 15 years.

    Please. This is about costs from the hotel’s standpoint, and while Bulk Toiletries won’t kill me– it’s also not my preference. It just means I will bring my own mini bottles when on vacation. The same way I bring mini toothpaste and deodorant.

    Don’t act like it’s all about the environment. Because if it was– the average person on here would reduce the number of goods they buy, sell their car and stop traveling. But they won’t. It’s just a way for hypocrites to feel better about themselves by saying they aren’t using plastic straws and mini shampoo bottles as they fly 1st class around the world multiple times over.

    They only care about the environment when it doesn’t inconvenience them. When it doesn’t inconvenience them, they don’t mind if it inconveniences everyone else.

  40. We’ll never get anywhere if every change is met with this much resistance. Bottom line is there’s no significant disadvantage to bulk especially when compared to single use. Plus, don’t be selfish here. If we want to solve crises like plastic pollution we have to make some sacrifices. Anyway, your arguments are all nullified by the fact that so many places are already using bulk stuff. Where do you think the soap comes from on a plane?? In a restaurant or other public bathroom? You don’t seem to have issues with that so why with this. The only reason is that you’re afraid of change.

  41. I haven’t bought soap/shampoo / body wash in ages because I collect them from wherever i travel, and I’ve loved picking up ones from nice hotels (Penhaligon, Aesop, etc.). However, I’m actually for moving to the bulk dispensers, as much as I’d miss having these take home keepsakes. For one, I already have mini refillable bottles that I use to bring my own face wash/cleanser/moisturizer, so its not a big deal to just extend that to filling my own soap/shampoo/body wash. Will I miss getting “free” stuff? Obviously. But not worth the cost of what plastic is doing to our oceans.

  42. I think bulk toiletries are ok for lower class brands like Holiday Inn Express, Fairfield Marriotts but the rest should have a choice. I hate to be forced to make green moves. Mini bottles should remain available upon request. I love to use them and I will continue to use them and I am not so much focused on green choices and carbon footprint stuff.

  43. This can’t be about just the environment. If it were, they would go after the bigger wins first. I stayed at a Hyatt Place recently, and just to make a cup of in-room coffee, I ended up throwing the following away: Coffee Cup (plastic-lined paper, and thus non-recyclable), Plastic Wrapper Around the Coffee Cup , Plastic Wrapper for Coffee and “Tray”, Plastic “Tray” the Coffee Goes in when it’s in the Machine that’s thrown away after one cup, Plastic Container for Creamer, Plastic Stirrer Stick, Plastic Wrapper the Sugar Packets and Stirrer Stick came in…

    Then onto breakfast where everyone was throwing away Styrofoam plates and plastic silverware with their plastic syrup cups for the pancakes, plastic containers for the pats of butter, and more plastic tubs of coffee creamer for coffee served in more plastic-lined paper cups.

    If this were about plastic, I’d proffer that making coffee and eating breakfast uses a whole lot more per person per stay than a few tiny bottles of shampoo and lotion. If it were really about the environment, we’d look at these things too, but I don’t see any conversation about them at all.

    And oh, there were stacks and stacks of “real” plates and mugs at the breakfast station, but they had all been placed high up on the shelves by hotel staff with the Styrofoam and paper products down low so that people would use only those. It was presumably to save the effort of having to wash the “real” ones. I’m OK with changing to bulk dispensers if they go after all of those other things, too. If they’re not doing that, then to me it’s just virtue signaling and is actually being done for the cost savings rather than the stated reason. I hate that it’s so hypocritical if that’s truly the case.

  44. THANK YOU for writing this article, hah! Agree with every single one of your points. The 0.0001% chance that any of this tampering happens is NOT worth keeping single use products all over the world. Suggesting otherwise like Gary does is downright irresponsible.
    I also don’t understand why he and others are so hysterical about how “gross” the bulk bottles are, given how gross literally everything else in a hotel room is. I feel personally far more grossed out by remote controls, light switches, door handles, toilet flush handles that barely ever get even wiped, than by a soap bottle that contains, you know, soap.

  45. Just change to tetra pak folding style, mini milk cartons type container. No more “oh but the plastics!” I bet they wont, because its cost cutting measure.

  46. @grizly – fully agree, let’s stop these “nonsense rituals”, along with all the fake news that guns kill people, tax cuts to the rich don’t benefit all, and trump’s call was anything less than perfect…

  47. I see a whole lot of people in this thread who think that the individual bottles in a hotel room are replaced after every guest. As someone who spent years in the hotel industry, you shouldn’t think that. Even at the 5 Diamond resort I worked at, if the product didn’t look used, the attendants were instructed not to replace it. That’s good for clear plastic wrapped soaps, less so for liquids in translucent or opaque bottles. (Yes, I am saying that if the shampoo bottle looks full and is in the same place they normally put it, the attendants would not replace it regardless of the actual fluid in the bottle.)

  48. @jack – ” I am not so much focused on green choices and carbon footprint stuff.”

    I was going to comment on this but it’s really self explanatory…

    Opposite of the old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words, in this case these words pretty much draw your picture.

  49. It’s mostly virtue signaling with the side benefit of saving money. It’s no different than baby seal hangers on towel racks or gay friendly print ads or… The fun part is that this will become the norm and then upscale hotels will start offering the small individual stuff as a luxury item (well except in places that outlaw them). Kind of like business seats becoming PE seats and flatbed “first” seats becoming business seats. It’s a long evolving cycle. Personally, I hate it but can live with it with one exception. Bar soap. “Bath Gel” doesn’t equal a bar of soap.I really prefer to old cruise ship model where companies provided samples in guest cabins but nothing fun lasts forever I guess?

  50. Oh you people make me crazy! We are in the midst of the worst catastrophic environmental disaster EVER in the history the planet! And you are parsing out the pros and cons of bulk toiletries. Here’s something else to think of the Guardian reported that by 2030 yes10 years from now there will be 1 Billion (that’s not a typo) climate refugees. Oh and plastic now contaminates everything we eat so get a grip would you! Obviously any more to have less plastic is better. End of conversation.

  51. Agree with Ben on this one, the outrage is overwrought.

    I will say, though, that not all reusable toiletry setups are created equal. The “captive pump bottles” pictured at the top of the article seem to be a lot harder to tamper with than the refillable tank style dispensers seen at Alofts. I have (purely out of boredom) tried to figure out how the latch mechanism on the ones at Courtyards operates, and I haven’t figured it out yet. I also suspect those large bottles are replaced rather than being refilled.

    For Rich upthread who says you’d have to commandeer the cart to tamper with single use toiletries — if you think housekeeping is throwing away unused mini bottles between stays, you’re fooling yourself. Fill the bottle with a visually similar liquid and put it in the original location, and there’s no chance it’ll be replaced. I have frequently found half-used mini bottles that housekeeping didn’t catch.

    There’s an easy solution to all of this, though — have individual bottles available upon request at the front desk. Don’t like the brand standard? Just ask for a toiletry kit when you arrive. Still achieves the sustainability goals, since most people will never request one.

  52. “…the Guardian reported that by 2030 yes10 years from now there will be 1 Billion (that’s not a typo) climate refugees.”

    Safe to assume that prediction will turn out about as successful as all the others promulgated by the “experts” on climate change. A record of failure so extraordinary, it’s fascinating anyone still listens to them. St. Greta would be proud.

  53. First of all NOT all toiletries are locked, the last 2 hotels I’ve stayed at they weren’t locked and both times one of the items was empty, which I didn’t discover until I was in this shower. I’ve never had a single use bottle be empty. And, unfortunately I happen to know someone who when he was drunk thought it would be funny to “tamper” with these bottles. Disgusting on many levels, so now I will have to start traveling with my own toiletries. So the tampering issue is legit

  54. I agree with many – having used “bulk toiletries” in gyms for years, not sure why hotels should be ay different. You don’t get a mini grapefruit body wash when you go into the shower in Equinox

  55. I doubt all this back and forth is going it change anyone’s mind but just one of the items I agree with Gary on is “…single use toiletries might be tampered with – but it’s highly unlikely they’d be tampered with *by another guest* as bulk can be.”
    I wonder how many people have continual and direct contact with the general public on here. I was a member of a gym years ago where I saw a guy take a comb from a basket of combs in the mens locker room, comb his pubic hair with it, and then put it back in the basket for someone else to use (sorry, not trying to be gross, but it is true). The public can be insanely disgusting sometimes, and can have no respect for anyone else. Of course we place our hope that professionals being paid to do their job will not tamper with the product, but knowing full well it could happen. I’d rather take my chances on that front rather than trust the last 100+ strangers I don’t know.
    But, since this is the way it is going now, I will probably just bring my own toiletries with me. And for the concerned, I use mostly low-waste solid products that are not in disposable plastic containers.

  56. I don’t mind the switch and think the change is indeed good to the environment.

    But single use bottles often have some sort of tamper-proof tape or seal. Unless there is something similar to protect the bulk dispenser, i believe mini-bottles are harder to tamper with.

  57. I’m sure a lot of hotels switching to bulk toiletries for the “environment” will continue providing drinking water only via paid plastic bottled water because money is important!

  58. The fact that a lot of people are worried about someone tampering with the multi-use products, means that a lot of people are thinking about tampering with multi-use products, and if a lot of people are thinking about tampering with multi-use products, a certain percentage of them will tamper with the multi-use products.

  59. The hygiene concerns can probably be adequately addressed by hotels, however, I personally think you dismiss them a little too casually. 1) Sure you use airplane bathrooms because you have to, but unless you take the position that that’s all the cleaner you expect your Marriott bathroom to be, that’s silly. 2) Keep in mind these are things you are rubbing on your body. 3) Of course they are easier to tamper with since they will sit in the hotel room for months rather than be replaced after most guests check out. Tamper with, [insert bodily function] on, etc. 4) I’ve been in plenty of nice hotels where hair was left in the shower drain, so do I have a lot of confidence they’re going to always thoroughly clean the little nozzles on shampoo bottles? No.

  60. And the answer is that this is in YMMV territory.

    A natural germphobe, who spends a lot of money eating in the hotel restaurant rather than consuming much cheaper street food while overseas, I always carry my own “L’Occitane en Provence” travel-pack toiletries that I purchase from an eponymous store near my office on Third Ave, NYC.

    Problem solved!

  61. I don’t have a dog in this fight because I travel with my own toiletries that I prefer over what are provided at hotels. I buy my products in bulk and have dispensers in my shower at home which are clear plastic and easy to see if there is any contamination (not that this is a concern at home). Would clear plastic locked dispensers, alleviate contamination fears? In the case of bleach and many clear contaminants, I’m sure the foul smell would be overpowering. I’m sympathetic to both sides of this debate but fairly confident these major hotel chains will figure out how to distribute these products safely to their guests.

  62. People even tamper toilet paper at Walmart.
    You said they won’t tamper hotel toiletries?
    You must take too much cocaine.

  63. The reason this is considered virtue signaling is that 99% of plastic that ends up in the ocean is the result of poor waste management from a handful of countries in Asia and Africa.

    So unless IHG, Marriott and Hyatt have been illegally dumping their waste, then replacing single use shampoo bottles at their hotels does absolutely nothing to address the problem of plastic pollution in the environment.

  64. We could just switch to biodegradeable single-use toiletries. Nobody would notice the quality of the plastic, and then we could stop all of this madness.

  65. The hotels are being duplicitious – they virtue signal “environmental consciousness” but it’s really a cost saving measure – but honestly I don’t care if the toiletries are single-use or bulk. I’ll make do either way, or if the soap, lotion, etc. is really bad, I’ll just go down to Walgreen’s and buy my own.

    What I DO care about is something neither you nor Gary brought up, though – if hotels are going to switch to bulk dispensers, they need to ensure they actually work! I’ve been in one too many bathrooms where the pump is busted and won’t dispense properly. A problem I inevitably never discover until after I’ve turned on the water to wash my hands or take a bath. It’s a training issue, yes, but one that vexes pretty much any place that uses bulk dispensers, and isn’t getting any better.

  66. Hotels deciding on their own to switch to bulk toiletries: fine with me if they think that is what customers want. Personally I prefer it, as I always run out of body wash in those little bottles. There is enough there for one shower max.

    The government mandating that hotels switch to bulk toiletries: complete overreach IMHO. So marginal to actual environmental issues and completely symbolic. Particularly in California, they definitely have more important issues they should be focused on (homelessness anyone?)

  67. Bulk toiletries… ewwwwwwwwwwwww

    100% great for the environment. Cannot argue with that part.

    However, too many stories of people doing nasty things to get ‘revenge’ on a hotel. NO THANK YOU.

    ewwwwwwwwwwwwww

    And there are a lot of people like me who will simply go buy shampoo, conditioner and soap… then leave the remainder in my room. (Can’t take it with me… never check bags.)

    That might negate the benefits to the environment.

  68. The locks on the bulk items are a joke. It’s easier to see if a small bottle is tampered with. Most mave tamper seals

  69. I enjoy staying in luxury hotels. I enjoy loading my bag with small bottles of toiletries. Now I will have to use more space in my bag for tools to remove dispensers. Bummer.

  70. The Marriott Residence Inn in Sacramento had bulk dispensers in the shower on a visit last year. My shower contained: Body Wash, Hair Conditioner and Body Wash. Yep, no shampoo. Of course, I discovered this after I was in the shower.

    That’s just the least of my concerns. Gary is right about his concerns. I’m bringing my own shampoo and conditioner when this stupid idea spreads.

  71. I agree with Ben that single use are easier to tamper with than a multiple use dispenser if it uses some sort of proprietary locking mechanism. While some single use toiletries have tamper-evident seals, in my experience most do not. Does anyone have reason to believe that housekeeping routinely throw out toiletries that appear to be unused?

    Just travel with your own damn toiletries anyway. I’m picky about my specific shampoo, conditioner, and face wash. I bought the minis of my at-home products that they sell at my salon and refill them from my full size bottles. Although I do wish I were better at remembering them, they get left in hotel rooms at least once or twice a year…

  72. Since there is really no rational reason to oppose bulk toiletries, one is right to ask if such opposition doesn’t have (though perhaps covered up) a political, economic or philosophical basis which might lead them to deny the scientific facts and be skeptical about environmental action, believe that such actions by responsible corporations might be related to eventual government mandates which they oppose as radical libertarians or just support the plastics (some have also mocked legislation banning plastic straws) and fossil fuels industry.

  73. How come no one has brought up the Shawn / Camila axis? That’s surely the bit missing from the chat here . Lucky said it was way more pressing…

  74. A few thoughts:
    – I only use two toiletries from hotels: bar soap and body moisturizer/lotion. I actually prefer a dispenser for the lotion. Knowing to ask ahead at check-in for bar soap (or stocking my bag with a supply of mini soap bars) will be easier when consistent across hotels rather than the randomness currently experienced.
    – I’ve received single-use toiletries on double-digit occasions where a previous guest had used them but they were not refilled at Marriotts, Hyatts, Hiltons. This is exactly the same issue as those worried about bulk dispensers not being refilled: a training and performance issue. It’s about good service.
    – The fact that bulk dispensers may save hotels money does not preclude the change from also being good for the environment. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. I’m very happy to move to more sustainable methods in all areas of life and those of you who refuse or are too simple to understand that we need to change our habits are incredibly self-centered and a willfully ignorant part of the problem.
    – And finally, my own pet peeve and personal PSA: Most of you shouldn’t be washing your hair everyday. Stop doing it! It’s consumer healthcare product marketing at it’s best. Ask your dermatologist. Your scalp, your wallet, and the environment will thank you. If you’re staying long enough to need shampoo, you’re in the minority of those actually complaining.

  75. This is the disgusting new world that the eco-morons are forcing upon us. People have to fight back!

    Of course this will do practically nothing for the environment. Almost all of the plastic waste occurs due to poor or non existant waste management practices in poorer nations, something that will be made worse if the elitist eco-fascists get their way and prevent development in these areas. Something to ponder

  76. I have a few condos that function as serviced apartments. The management company introduced bulk containers similar to those used in Aloft, maybe 7 years ago ( replaced every couple of years with updated models/styles). They use L’occitane products ( decanted from 20 litre containers). The guests pay quite high rates, equivalent to 5*; they are experienced travelers. There has not been a single complaint over the course of those years, covering thousands of stay nights. Not one.

  77. Will it kill me? No. Do I consider it a downgrade? Yes.
    It may be good for the environment, but I personally don’t value that change enough to give hotels a higher margin for a lesser experience. If they were really concerned about the environment they would reduce the room rate and charge for individual toiletries.

  78. This discussion reminds me of the issue with plastic drinking straws. It is time to change some of our habits that are relatively easy to fix, even if we can’t do as much as we would like about climate change. I was used to having plastic straws in drinks just as everyone else was, but the mountains of plastic garbage in the oceans are not an illusion. We can give these issues some thought and see if our habits can evolve, so that we use less plastic. If you can’t change your habits, you are still free to make your own adjustments.

  79. Lots of people I know, including me, bring their own shampoos and soaps from the brands they use all the time to the hotels. My hair and body used to certain types of products, and I never use hotel ones, cause let’s be fair, most of them are not that great. So I don’t see any problem here.

  80. I don’t think the reason for this switch matters. If you are so scared or concerned about the change bring your own toiletries. Its that simple

  81. How about we focus on plastic cups wrapped in plastic instead? A small bottle of shampoo will last 2-3 days, whereas a cup will be tossed out each day. Coffee cups wrapped in plastic versus glass mugs? Or how about k-cups? Again, a traveler will use a plastic cup for water wrapped in plastic, a paper coffee cup wrapped in plastic, then two either k-cups which are all plastic or a single-use plastic tray wrapped in plastic for their coffee. Now consider a shampoo container. That same traveler will use that single container for likely 2-3 days.

    I think we should focus on where the waste is actually happening and I do not believe for one moment that hotels are doing the ‘right thing’ here. Thy are using this to their convenience when it’s actually a profit play. If they wanted to do the right thing they’d use biodegradable packaging instead. They’d eliminate k-cups and use glass mugs for coffee as well as glass cups for water. How about using biodegradable paper cartons for water (the “just water” ones are great) in lounges versus plastic bottles?

    I think hotels should put their money where their mouth is here and make positive changes such as eliminating plastic bottles, plastic cups, and other far more wasteful items.

    Sorry but this is not a play for the environment, but a play for profit.

  82. Gary is right.

    In the long run, these non-disposal bulk containers will be as dirty, if not more dirty, than aircraft’s water dispensers.

    All u need is one guest in a 100, to tamper with the container (insert any disgusting thing you can think of), the container is contaminated and never cleaned again. (The housekeeper will only keep topping up the liquids. No one will ever wash that container, in years!)

    So yes, while Lucky is right that most people will not do ridiculous things (and i am giving a 99% positive sampling outcome here) but all it takes is a bad apple to occur once in a hundred days, you actually get more than 3 contaminations a year. Multiple by a decade, and imagine yourself washing your hair from it, your body from it.

    These changes are geared towards profit-making, disguised as environmentally measures, but in reality, putting guests’ hygiene and health at risk.

    If hotel rooms’ kettle, cups, spoons are already not properly washed, what more these dispensers? If you pay top dollar at high end brands and force yourself to use these dirty dispensers that are never washed in years and are told they are saving the environment (but putting your health at risk), then you may find yourself buying and bringing your own toiletries, causing more inconvenience to yourself, and it is most likely small disposal ones that you will end up buying, if you want to avoid these dirty non-disposal containers.

    My take is this, if we want to limit disposal containers, offer bigger bottles (ie 100ml size), and limit additional bottles usage via something like Marriott’s green choice.

    (P.S.: Why no one is suggesting non-disposal toothpaste dispenser and mouthwash? It is almost the same concept. Will you use toothpaste and mouthwash refilled daily from a non-disposable container dispensing toothpaste and mouthwash that are never washed in years? Maybe this will bring home the point why non-disposables are disgusting.)

  83. This thread is like if the 1% met my Grandfather’s Facebook comments. This is a great move. It can be cheaper and better for the environment at the same time. The amount of fear about people tampering with these, but not mini bottles, is remarkable. I do agree that bar soap is better and I’d like that to stay, but the liquids are fine.

    And some thought leaders need to have some better thoughts.

  84. Here’s some numbers to put this into perspective.

    Marriott estimated saving 1.7M pounds of plastic per year (500M bottles) by eliminated single use toiletries. Given global production of about 400M TONS of plastic per year, that is .0000021 of the world’s annual plastic consumption – i.e., about 1 part in 500,000.

    Since Marriott has about 6 times as many rooms as the Hyatt, Hyatt’s change will reduce the world’s plastic consumption by about 1 part in 3,000,000.

    Or here are the numbers stated a different way. The average American consumes about 220 pounds of plastic per year (that’s a 2017 number, so today it is probably even more). Given the weight per bottle implied by Marriott’s press release, that implies that each bottle is about 1 part in 66,000 of the average American’s annual plastic use.

    In summary, this change is a trivial trivial fraction of a fraction of plastic consumption. If you are concerned about plastic consumption, fine – but this is not the place to make any meaningful difference whatsoever. It would be like trying to conserve food by saving a grain of rice each day. And that’s why it looks like virtue signaling, and nothing more, to some of us.

  85. Has anyone come up with the boomer equiv to “okay Boomer?” Maybe “whatev Z?” At any rate, that’s my response to Daniel and the other sanctimonious know-it-alls who speak in absolutes and have no interest in understanding the perspectives of their fellow humans. I hope you’re young, because your over 35 and still speaking/thinking in those terms, the planet really is in trouble.

  86. I love bulk toiletries, it’s much easier than to be opening those annoying tiny plastic containers. If they tamper with them? I don’t care! If the shampoo or body wash is empty? Meh, I’ll use the other one. The idea of guests taking the individual toiletries is pointless, who actually uses them at home, anyway?
    Love the “less waste” movement and count me in for anything that reduces waste on the Planet!

  87. You are 100% completely wrong on this. I once used a bulk hotel toiletry, and then I died. Just goes to show that others can have different experiences.

  88. Oh, this is another hotel money-saving grab by hotels. I remember when they went to low wattage light bulbs several years ago. It was so dark in the bathroom at a Westin I was staying at it was impossible to apply makeup. Now we’re supposed to reuse towels and we get guilted into that. I hate body gels. I prefer small soap bars. There ARE ecological packages for toiletries that don’t have to be bolted to the walls but naturally that would cost more. I don’t see hotel prices lowered with all these money-savers for the hotels. The hotels save money then jack up “resort fees.”

  89. It is so American to throw anger and judgement over the change from single use to bulk dispensers.

    For those of you citing the environmental benefits: I agree wholeheartedly but stop blaming boomers. Gen X, Millennials, you name the age group, are all guilty of abuse. Just read the posts. Those opposing the change aren’t all older. Spoiled brats are one and the same regardless of age.

    Bottom line: stop crying over this. It is long needed, nobody is going to die, your life is not ruined. The sun will rise tomorrow. How on earth did you ever survive those lie flight trips visiting us here in Europe if this is so devastating?

  90. Many of the arguments here involve unpleasant/annoying surprises with bulk toiletry dispensers. This is similar to a problem I’ve run into often enough at a Crowne Plaza that I’ve modified my Arrival Routine: No Hot Water. It took 4 or 5 occurrences of that being discovered at 6AM for me to make it a “first thing” to be verified when checking into a room. I run the hot water to ensure that it IS. I suspect that similarly modifying your arrival routine to examine the toiletries immediately will be the practical solution to (potential) problems. Yes, you shouldn’t have to do it, but it is the simple solution.

  91. If this is an environmental issue then why is no one stopping airlines from giving out boxes of single use amenities to business class. The real issue that hotels are missing is how to distinguish a brand and how does it maintain the brand in the customer’s mind. If people look forward to taking home amenities then hotels are losing a marketing technique to entice people to stay at their hotel.

  92. We are talking about luxury hotels. It’s not a question whether the dispensers will “kill you”. Luxury is about a feeling of well-being, certainty and unnecessary fine stuff.
    What i will do is demand that they provide me with individual shampoo/gel bottles. I am pretty sure they will have it in stock to provide on request.
    Let someone else think about our planet; not the luxury hotel guests.

  93. @Reed-because the number is small is no reason to ignore it. That argument just reeks of your pompous stupidity. Maybe you should only comment on the big picture posts and leave the small things to us minions. I can already visualize the Tump/Haley bumper sticker on your pickup right below the gun rack and Stop abortion and Planned Parenthood stickers.

  94. @T-this is a company decision. There is no “someone” dictating the change. If you would like these changes in Business Class on flights suggest it to airlines.

    Such small minds on this blog.

  95. @caiverga-yes so true, my well being always starts with twisting the cap on a single use shampoo gel. Totally destroys my day when I have to push a button or push down the pump on a bulk container.

    Smh

  96. @Rick it’s just nicer to have an individual, sealed Remede or Aromatherapy shampoo bottle. I’m not saying it’s a game-changer, but it’s nicer. When paying 100-200EUR per night, or even more, the certainty of having a sealed bottle of high-quality shampoo is all that counts.
    Let Americans care about the planet, and give the rest of us nice toiletries))

  97. It’s funny to me… my six sales reps amd I that travel constantly have all been taking our empty big bottles from home and filling them up for the wives and mostly for the kids to use. If more people did this I am sure the hotels would switch back to single use bottles… the funny thing will be how they try to spin it the other way as a “environmental” issue!

  98. @Manjou Lopez-so you find it funny that your whole company are thieves. Nope, not “an” environmental issue, just an ethical one with a criminality twist.

    Again, another slide into 3rd World behavior.

  99. I don’t really care either way, but I have a feeling that dispensers are going to be more likely to be tampered with now… by people who are seriously upset about the change. I wonder how much the hotels have budgeted for replacing dispensers.

    I also wonder if some toiletry brands will start selling pump bottles that can’t be unscrewed as a compromise between single-use and reusables.

  100. I’ve never seen bulk hotel toiletries with any locking mechanism before. Maybe that’s something new…or maybe I’ll just have to be looking out for dye or other substances in the shampoo.

    I don’t mind using bulk shampoo or conditioner, but I much prefer a bar of soap to body wash so I hope that’s still provided. Usually, I bring the little bottles home to donate to either the poverty program at church or to a battered women’s shelter. I guess that’s no longer an option. The homeless at my local free lunch won’t have the option of choosing their favorite shampoo and conditioner from the big box of little bottles as they do now.

    As for concern for the environment, a few weeks ago when I ordered a frozen coffee drink and it was served in a big plastic cup with a big plastic lid with a drinking hole in it and no straw because “straws are bad for the environment”, I decided the wacko greenie nut jobs had pushed me just one step too far. I am now opposed to all actions taken to benefit the environment. I was happy to recycle, to carry reusable grocery and produce bags, to take quick showers, to eliminate air conditioning, to walk/bike rather than drive, etc. But take my straws (and my bars of soap) and we have a problem.

  101. Just reading through the comments is a journey. For the foreseeable future, there will always be tension between hygiene and environmental impact. It’s virtue signally because the hotels only care about money and are using the environment as an excuse. If they really cared, they’d stop flushing millions of gallons of bleach into wastewater systems, provide recycling bins in hotel rooms, allow better ventilation in rooms to reduce reliance on hvac, and install water filters in place of all those bottles of drinking water.

    Sure, reducing plastics is a great goal, but this goal is equally achievable by bringing your own toiletries so hotels don’t have to replace the single-use bottles. Compared to the carbon footprint of flying across the planet, what it takes to make those little (recyclable) bottles is minimal.

  102. @Rick. I make an analytic argument with data, and your only thing you dribble out in reply is ad hominems. Kind of makes my point.

    Weird though that when you encounter an analytic argument and some real world numbers, you immediate conjure up conservatives with gun racks. You must think very poorly of liberals if you believe only conservatives are interested in distinguish between meaningless empty gestures and useful policy.

    My numbers (undisputed here so far) show that this change will have almost exactly 0 impact on worldwide plastic consumption, even after aggregating over hundreds of millions of hotel guests. It may save hotels significant money and make some crusaders feel good about themselves, but it will do absolutely nothing to address any serious environmental issues.

  103. Modifying the ingredients for single-use containers and then providing recycling bins would (on many fronts) be better for the environment. And many of the other items that Andy 11235 identifies above… but worse for the bottom-line.

    Interesting that their stock is up nearly 1.8% since announcing this. And the SNP500 isn’t up that much so it’s not a systemic change.

    Really, this virtue signaling is a smart marketing tactic: use people’s passions and lack of understanding for carbon emissions to get them to passionately argue a controversial cost-savings measure. I’m not a shareholder, but bravo.

  104. @Tom S
    >>The odds of this happening to anyone making this arguments (sic) is one in a billion, …<<

    Tom, if I've told you once, I've told you a million times – don't exaggerate!

  105. So the hell what if its a cost saving measure. Wow, some of you are unhappy that less money is being wasted, AND the environment is being helped in some measure. I know you want your “money’s worth,” but wow.

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