Audio: Aer Lingus Pilot & JFK Air Traffic Control Get Into Argument

By: Ben Schlappig

Updated: March 29, 2023
Published: July 25, 2018

40 comments

This post is intended for aviation geeks, since I imagine most others would have no clue what’s going on.

If you ever listen to air traffic control for fun (who doesn’t?!), you’ve probably noticed that controllers in the NY area can get a bit feisty. I can’t really blame them, since they have some high-pressure jobs. Sometimes I can’t blame them for losing their cool, like this audio click between a JFK ground controller and Air China 981:

While not to that level, @AirlineFlyer noted an interesting situation that arose between an Aer Lingus pilot and a JFK controller on Sunday evening. EI104 was an A330 departing from New York to Dublin.

The weather in New York wasn’t great. After takeoff the Aer Lingus plane was instructed to turn left, though the pilot said he couldn’t do that because of a cell of weather, and would need to maintain the runway heading for another 15 miles.

In an irritated tone, the air traffic controller responds that the weather is “light,” and that he has six categories of weather, and the heading he gave the pilot was through the lightest category, and that he has had no adverse ride reports.

At that point the air traffic controller puts him in a holding pattern, and it seems to me like the pilot feels like he’s intentionally not being given the most direct routing. As the controller gets ready to hand over the pilot to another controller at New York Departure, the following conversation happens:

Pilot: “Before I go, we didn’t create any situation we flew the aircraft in a safe manner, and my boss will be in contact with your boss. Good day.”
Air traffic controller:”Understood, I just… I do understand and appreciate that, but again, you know, there’s not much… you’re on the runway and you’ve taken a clearance, and accepted a departure clearance and you’re seeing that weather straight ahead, on a runway, and everybody off that airport is turning left, I mean there’s not too many options here in New York.”
Pilot: “It’s not my first day in New York, and it’s not my first day in an aircraft. I did what I do to do. Good day.”

Here’s the full audio along with the flight path, if you’d like to hear it:

What makes this interesting is that clearly there’s some tension, though I’m not sure either party is necessarily in the wrong here:

The pilot’s first job is to fly the aircraft safely, and if s/he doesn’t feel comfortable with the instructions given by air traffic control, they need to be given an alternative. You can’t hold that against the pilot, even if he was perhaps being cautious.
The air traffic controller is really busy, and New York airspace is also very congested, so options are limited in terms of routes they can give pilots. It’s not surprising that the air traffic controller was annoyed, because from his perspective this was an instruction that every other pilot was okay with, except the Aer Lingus pilot.

So the way I view it, it was an interesting back-and-forth. I’m not sure the “my boss will talk to your boss” conversation at the end was really necessary, since it didn’t seem like anything that bad happened.

What do you make of this exchange?

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Youngblood Guest

November 10, 2020, 10:08 pm

I'm certainly no pilot. I always wanted to be, but due to health reasons, I am disqualified. That being said, I do have a little knowledge about procedures and policies. I absolutely agree that a pilot has the right to request a deviation. Everybody can understand this fact. That being said, I have travelled extensively and I can tell you that while there are a few airports in Europe that handle more flights than JFK, they do not have the air traffic that New York has. You are not dealing with just JFK. You're not dealing with just JFK and La Guardia. There are a total of fifteen airports and private runways in this area. ATC for the New York area deals with more traffic than any others in the world. When a pilot asks for deviation, ATC will do what they can to accommodate that request. However, it was clear to see that the pilot in this case asked for the accommodation, but then wanted to be the first one out of the area. It doesn't work that way. You got your request, but that means you are going to have to wait until the way has been cleared for you. Lets not forget that shortly after 9/11 a plane flying out of New York ran into turbulence from the jet wash of another jet ahead of it and crashed. ATC has to take things like this into account and I am sorry, but the pilot needs to understand that he doesn't get to jump to the front of the line just because he wants to pitch a hissy fit. Wait your turn, do a few circles until the way clears for you. Get over it.

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Phil Blinkhorn Guest

January 4, 2020, 6:33 pm

Long time after but a few observations. Just because previous aircraft have accepted a routing and successfully navigated through a weather system does not mean the next aircraft will, even if it has previously accepted a routing - see Delta L1011 accident at DFW 1985 where all previous arrivals had landed safely. Next, the controller, busy as he or she maybe, is sitting comfortably on the ground whilst the crew, whose weather radar is closer to the activity and likely more effective than the controller's, aided by Mk 1 eyeball, have the final responsibility to ensure a safe flight. The problem here is not being put in a hold, though this may have aggravated the crew, but the controller's attitude that he knew better than the crew and his inference that he was punishing the flight for causing him aggravation. NYC airspace is not the busiest in the world but is complex and given the proximity of three major airports has restrictions which weather can complicate. Nonetheless the controller could have been more professional, accepted the professionalism of the crew in rejecting the routing based on the actual circumstances rather than the acceptance and experiences of earlier traffic and had he responded in that way would not have drawn the comment from the crew.

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Manny Guest

July 29, 2018, 2:59 pm

@Mike (the ATC person here) fully agree with your post, about ATC's behaviour being appalling and unacceptable! I was horrified to hear how he talked the the pilot in the first place, not to mention his unwillingness to cooperate with the pilot normally...

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Bill Guest

July 28, 2018, 2:17 am

The controller was not busy. The controller was making a “hollow” statement. NY TRACON should be embarrassed and ashamed. Weak.

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Rafa Guest

July 27, 2018, 8:12 pm

Regarding Air China ground exchange; the crew expresses extremely poor comprehension of English. They probably should not be flying outside of China. As to Air Lingus exchange for anybody who knows that airspace as an aviator will not be surprised. This is extreemly congested and complex airspace overlying three mayor airports and several minor but also extreemly busy corporate and private airports. Any deviation from departure procedure may require landline coordination between different sectors of ATC. AL crew knew the weather and had a departure clearance putting them into the weather they deemed hazardous. They should have declined the clearance on the ground. They would have probably lost their departure slot. One airborne they try to fanangle their way around the weather breaching the flow of traffic. The controller accommodates the deviation with a few circles. What is a big deal? This all should not be a problem for the crew. Seems last comment by AL crew was counterproductive and unprofessional. NY ATC controllers are good. They can be short and intimidating. It’s just a nature of the beast. If you can make it there you can make it anywhere. NY.

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