Here at OMAAT, I write about all kinds of airlines, from every part of the globe. Heck, sometimes I even write about fake airline startups. I love aviation, and there’s no limit to the airline topics I’m willing to discuss.
I often write about Middle Eastern carriers as well, whether it’s well established airlines like Emirates Airline or Qatar Airways, or airline startups like Riyadh Air. When I do, there’s often a very vocal and small minority of people who chime in, shaming me for daring to write about these airlines on ethical grounds.
So while I often address these comments or talk about these topics in passing, I figured a dedicated post about this topic was in order. That way I can just link to this post, rather than being like a broken record. How can I in good conscience fly with airlines in the Gulf region, and write about them? Let’s get right into it…
In this post:
We should all form our own independent opinions
Let me start by saying that as humans, we all have our own experiences based on the lives we’ve lived. Heck, you don’t even have to leave the United States to see that. Just look at the vastly different perceptions that people have of the current situation in the United States.
Similarly, I’m in no way suggesting that your opinion should be the same as my opinion. I very much welcome people who have different perspectives than I do. I think we can approach this respectfully, though, and not immediately assume that anyone who has a different opinion than us is a thoughtless loser who has no moral compass, and puts no thoughts into their actions.
I also think it’s much easier to hurl insults at others and suggest that something they do is wrong, rather than being introspective, and reflecting on our own actions. After all, if you’re so enlightened, you’re probably not spending your free time online being negative. 😉
I’d also like to acknowledge that I’m always evolving, and I love to learn. My perspective today might be different than my perspective in a week, or a month, or a year, or a decade. The world isn’t static.
What I can say with certainty is that the opinions I form in life aren’t because I don’t put any thought into them. Quite to the contrary, I’m a huge introvert, and I spend a lot of time “in my head,” thinking about the world.
I’m also unapologetically gay, but I don’t let that restrict me from engaging with people from different backgrounds, or with vastly different opinions. As a matter of fact, I think if we spend too much time in our own echo chamber, that’s when we get to the point where we’re unable to evolve.
My stance on flying with & writing about Gulf carriers
Now let me share my general stance on Gulf carriers, both when it comes to flying with them, and when it comes to writing about them. I’ll even talk a bit about my thought on visiting some of the countries they’re based in. It seems that most commonly, people have issues in one of three areas:
- How can you financially support Gulf carriers by flying with them?
- How can you promote Gulf carriers by writing about them?
- How can you support the social policies of these countries?
Financially supporting Gulf carriers…
Some people think it’s unconscionable to financially support a Gulf airline, given that they’re owned by their respective governments and investment funds. Let me just address that point realistically, rather than idealistically — like it or not, we’re all supporting Gulf governments.
Using that same logic, it would be unethical to fly on British Airways (the biggest shareholder is the government of Qatar), pass through Heathrow Airport (one of the biggest shareholders is the government of Saudi Arabia), or to stay at an endless number of hotels around the globe (which are largely owned by the investment funds of oil rich countries).
Never mind the stakes that these governments have in companies we interact with every day, from Bank of America, to Boeing, to Facebook, and many more…
In an ideal world, it’s absolutely nice to support companies that you think are ethical and do right by society. But honestly, I just don’t think that’s realistic in this context. If you’re someone who only does patronize businesses where you 100% agree with their business practices, I’d love to hear what your strategy is.
If you on principle avoid these airlines, because you want to send a message, I understand that, and even respect it. But it’s hard to argue in good conscience that it’s because of the financial support aspect…
Providing coverage of Gulf airlines…
I’ve been a full time blogger for over 16 years now, and the airline industry is my passion. While I of course have my favorite airlines, I try to cover the industry with little bias with regards to topics outside the core of the industry. Why? Because I recognize the fact that I have a very diverse set of readers, and I also realize that people visit this blog to escape the problems of the everyday world.
Coverage of something doesn’t equal an endorsement on my part. Let me give an example. I’m absolutely fascinated by Saudi Arabia’s massive tourism push, and all the interesting (bizarre?) projects that are underway. Does that mean I want to vacation there, or that I think everyone else should vacation there, or that I hope it becomes the new center of the world?
Well, no, not really. But I love learning about tourism and infrastructure projects, whether I agree with them or not. Saying “hey, the St. Regis Red Sea just opened, here’s what we know about it” is different than saying “the St. Regis Red Sea just opened, and you all should stay there immediately, because Saudi Arabia is the greatest country on the face of the earth.”
For the avoidance of doubt, let me be very transparent — I have no financial relationship with any Gulf airline. I pay for all of my flights on all of those airlines. I mean, I’ve seen quite a few otherwise legitimate sources do sponsored stories on Saudi Arabia’s tourism boom, and that’s not something I’d personally be comfortable doing. But hey, to each their own…
Some people also point out how I have positive coverage of aspects of the passenger experience at Gulf airlines. Yes, I mean, I do cover the airline industry, and if an airline does something well, I try to give them credit for that, and if an airline doesn’t do something well, I try to call them out for that. I’ll let my record there speak for itself — I’ve called out Gulf airlines on all kinds of topics over the years.
Gulf countries and social policies…
It goes without saying that my social values don’t align with those of a vast majority of governments with an official religion. I mean, I’m a gay, married man with a kid. For that matter, look how divided we currently are in the United States on social issues.
But I think any debate around the ethics of traveling to countries with more conservative governments have to be founded in reality. For example, I can’t count the number of times over the years that I’ve had someone tell me “how can you travel to Dubai, they stone people there for being gay.”
That just doesn’t reflect the reality of Dubai, which is basically like the Miami of the Middle East:
- First of all, no country can ban “being gay,” but rather certain activities are banned (many of which are performed by both straight and gay people)
- Second of all, look at the actual record the UAE has on this topic when it comes to punishment
I’ve written in the past about my perspective of traveling as a gay person, including in the Middle East. Heck, in the case of Dubai, I have several gay friends from western countries who choose to live there and are happy with their lives. They don’t live there due to a lack of options, but because they like it.
Furthermore, there’s a difference between government policies, and the reality of visiting places, and meeting people. Things aren’t always as they seem, and I think often the best way to form an opinion is to experience something for yourself.
Of course let me acknowledge that people should be careful and follow their own judgment, and that this isn’t to dismiss any of the problems that do exist. There are serious problems, and not all countries in the region are the same. Quite to the contrary, there’s quite the spectrum.
But to just uniformly paint the Gulf region as a place that’s dangerous and uncomfortable for gays doesn’t reflect what I’ve found to be the reality.
Bottom line
I try to keep the blog mostly about airlines, hotels, travel, points, etc. However, travel and politics are inherently intertwined, and people do often make fair points about the complicated politics of many of our favorite airlines. Hopefully the above provides some insights into my thoughts on this topic, and how I arrive at the conclusions I currently have.
I absolutely welcome a dialogue on this subject, and I’d love to hear how others feel as well. I’d just ask that we do so politely and constructively.
Where do you stand on the topic of Middle Eastern airlines and ethics?
Ben Habeebi, I find it terrifyingly fascinating that you left out one of the most controversial airlines from your "moral" quandary.
In an alternative reality (or depending on which side of the aisle your moral standards are positioned), when it comes to the Middle East, you are either sinister, tactical, and/or willfully ignorant of the elephant in the room -or the Middle East- for that matter.
Why did ignore El Al, Israels National Carrier;...
Ben Habeebi, I find it terrifyingly fascinating that you left out one of the most controversial airlines from your "moral" quandary.
In an alternative reality (or depending on which side of the aisle your moral standards are positioned), when it comes to the Middle East, you are either sinister, tactical, and/or willfully ignorant of the elephant in the room -or the Middle East- for that matter.
Why did ignore El Al, Israels National Carrier; representing one of the most oppressive occupying Apartheid regimes in the 21st century? and what about Turkish airlines?
Do you find it inconvenient to discuss one “moral” while ignoring another? Or you just can’t handle controversial topics when they become inconvenient? (by the way oppressive LGBTQ policies are no less evil than occupation, Apartheid, and genocide) or are you one of those who consciously believe that some moralities are -for lack of a better word- superior to others?
If you wish to be perceived as balanced and relevant, you cannot, under any circumstances, claim to be discussing the moral quandary of flying an airline in the Middle East without addressing all airlines in the region. (unless you believe Israel is in Europe:-) Otherwise, I am afraid you are one of those who are continually proved to be inconvenienced by any truth that does not suit their worldview. Cheers :-)
Not a difficult decision for me at all. Whilst I rarely leave the airport with some carriers - I'm just not prepared to have substandard service by flying some of the other carriers. The only time in my life I have faced proper homophobia (I count myself as very lucky) was in Singapore when I tried to check into a high American chain. The check in woman just kept saying but you are two men...
Not a difficult decision for me at all. Whilst I rarely leave the airport with some carriers - I'm just not prepared to have substandard service by flying some of the other carriers. The only time in my life I have faced proper homophobia (I count myself as very lucky) was in Singapore when I tried to check into a high American chain. The check in woman just kept saying but you are two men and its a king bed and I just kept say AND increasingly loudly. Singapore is now working towards legalising same sex marriage.
That homophobic experience of yours in Singapore must have been a very long time ago. Now you will have no problems at all if a gay or lesbian couple went to share a bed.
Sadly Singapore is not moving towards legalising same sex marriage any time soon.
Thanks for bring up this topic as it's always good to have a thoughtful conversation about a bird's eye view of "how the world works." Certainly, no place is near perfect but as a person in LGBTQ+ Healthcare, there are certainly places better for political, mental and physical safety than others. Also, recognizing the power of our money, is a way of supporting or not supporting for a more perfect world.
Though clearly the...
Thanks for bring up this topic as it's always good to have a thoughtful conversation about a bird's eye view of "how the world works." Certainly, no place is near perfect but as a person in LGBTQ+ Healthcare, there are certainly places better for political, mental and physical safety than others. Also, recognizing the power of our money, is a way of supporting or not supporting for a more perfect world.
Though clearly the Middle Eastern airlines have created experiences that really are top notch, I've long had concerns for LGBTQ+ and women's civil rights (also of migrant/foreign workers that are the backbone of the ME economy). Because of their threatens many classes of people (e.g. Dubai will revoke one's work visa if you are HIV+ upon arrival), I chose to fly Western and Asian airlines. Certainly, the complex web of corporate ownership and publicly traded companies makes it harder to have both transparency and fullstop boundaries. But just like a local bakery that is really good, I don't go there because they treat their workers poorly and aren't really great community members, I attempt not to give them my hard earned money. Similarly, as a Taiwanese-American, I actively avoid Chinese made products and services when possible since they actively threaten my family in Taiwan (plus their food safety record is poor).
Ben, I'll ask you this: OMAAT and other traditional and social media have significant power and influence. Even though you might not recommend going to or through places that have know laws and viewpoints that just seem unequal, by giving "press time" and visibility to say for example the Saudi tourism activities, doesn't that give them a lot of free press? Wouldn't keeping just silent have at least a chilling effect?
Basically you keep neutrality over political issues for this blog and try to objectively cover the travel topics. I can respect that. Unlike a certain Points “dude” who uses his platform to fundraise and support the genocidal campaign of Israel. Big difference from your posts which are positioned like “here’s how the war impacts travel” vs his platform “please help me raise money to support this war”.
I guess in your twisted mind, slandering the world’s only Jewish country for self-defense qualifies as “neutrality.”
Oh, that pathetically weak Western colonial project which didn't even last 100 years? Extirpate them all. Real Jews side with humanity against the occupation.
I love how quickly British Airways gets dropped in yet Turkish Airlines escapes the discussion unscathed!
Would you stay in a Trump hotel? You’ve never reviewed any of them.
Ordering stuff from Amazon that’s likely made in China is, by the definition of some of your critics, also wrong. But most still do it.
The US government has directly or indirectly bailed out airlines, car companies and many others. Yet we still buy airline tickets and cars. So both domestic and international airlines are subsidized. Amazing how much more value international airlines provide.
I’ve also travelled to UAE multiple times - and while I...
Ordering stuff from Amazon that’s likely made in China is, by the definition of some of your critics, also wrong. But most still do it.
The US government has directly or indirectly bailed out airlines, car companies and many others. Yet we still buy airline tickets and cars. So both domestic and international airlines are subsidized. Amazing how much more value international airlines provide.
I’ve also travelled to UAE multiple times - and while I don’t like their social policies, those of us that travel there can be, in some small way, agents of change.
@Lucky: Thank you so much for this wonderful article. I am in full agreement with what you said under the "we should all form our own independent opinions". I absolutely agree with you that if people were truly tolerant to others, willing to just listen to people with other opinion/s, without immediately considering them worthless human beings who should be eradicated, this world would be better. I have been following you for years, and you...
@Lucky: Thank you so much for this wonderful article. I am in full agreement with what you said under the "we should all form our own independent opinions". I absolutely agree with you that if people were truly tolerant to others, willing to just listen to people with other opinion/s, without immediately considering them worthless human beings who should be eradicated, this world would be better. I have been following you for years, and you truly are a very nice and tolerant person - irrespective of what some nasty trolls sometimes accuse you of being. Please keep up the good work!
You have to align your own moral compass when it comes to supporting some of these carriers. Qatar for example is heavily involved with Hamas and their terrorism goals. I'm sure many of these countries get the majority of their income from the production of oil so many people who believe in climate change as an issue would want to steer clear. Others are anti-gay, anti-Christian, etc. etc.
Qatar Airways supports Hamas? Please, come on!
Siri, in which country do Hamas commanders have their primary place of residence? And is that country's airline funded by the government that harbors Hamas terrorists, yes or no?
Pretty simple.
And what goal is Israel achieving by killing 15,000 children? How do you align your moral compass to accept a military killing that many kids?
If Gazan families weren’t hiding Hamas terrorists in their homes (often in childrens’ rooms), their kids would all still be alive.
Qatar is the only conduit for talks with Hamas. Is Qatar a villain? A hero? or is the situation NUANCED? Do we shun Qatar because they are part of the problem and ignore their current role in the solution? Do we shun QR because they're a "State-owned" corporation with a board, a CEO, a full corporate heirarchy or do we consider them a lapdog of a villainous government and boycott them? I acknowledge the validity...
Qatar is the only conduit for talks with Hamas. Is Qatar a villain? A hero? or is the situation NUANCED? Do we shun Qatar because they are part of the problem and ignore their current role in the solution? Do we shun QR because they're a "State-owned" corporation with a board, a CEO, a full corporate heirarchy or do we consider them a lapdog of a villainous government and boycott them? I acknowledge the validity of all the concerns about Qatar, including their complicity with Hamas AND their unique, critical role in talks now. the only thing I dismiss out ofhand is any assertion that the answer is simple. It's like watching the Salem Witch Trials, reading some of this oversimplified tribal nonsense.
I am American and I lived in the Middle East and worked for a Middle Eastern airline, MEA. At the time that I worked there, the carrier’s home country, Lebanon, was in turmoil and under attack by Israel, which is said to be an ally of America. Never was I confronted about my nationality or politics, even when I had to be in Lebanon. The Arab people that I worked with treated me exceptionally well...
I am American and I lived in the Middle East and worked for a Middle Eastern airline, MEA. At the time that I worked there, the carrier’s home country, Lebanon, was in turmoil and under attack by Israel, which is said to be an ally of America. Never was I confronted about my nationality or politics, even when I had to be in Lebanon. The Arab people that I worked with treated me exceptionally well and showed me tremendous fortitude in carrying out their duties and keeping the airline flying. I admire them for that and deeply respect them. Because of that, I generally look for a Middle Eastern or Asian carrier to get me where I am going these days.
Of the country in which I was born and of the countries in which I have lived, worked or repeatedly visited, most of them have their flaws with government policies or some political or social dynamics that I find problematic to some extent or another. That includes my beloved country of birth/citizenship — the country that celebrates its independence on the Fourth of July — but also countries ranging from other liberal representative democracies, to...
Of the country in which I was born and of the countries in which I have lived, worked or repeatedly visited, most of them have their flaws with government policies or some political or social dynamics that I find problematic to some extent or another. That includes my beloved country of birth/citizenship — the country that celebrates its independence on the Fourth of July — but also countries ranging from other liberal representative democracies, to liberal constitutional monarchies to increasingly anti-liberal majoritarian democracies, to authoritarian monarchies and military juntas/despots. It’s neither practical nor responsible nor useful for me to cut off or avoid casual ties and pretend as if it’s anything but hollow virtual-signaling that has less impact than lobbying my own government and nation to behave more responsibly at home and abroad. But let’s be realistic: we know Trump is a Saudi and Emirati kiss-up and Biden is no different in that regard despite his public virtue-signaling for a little while. Governments aren’t saints — they are at heart thugs that have a legal (albeit not necessarily ethical) monopoly on the
use of violence and other coercive tools to subjugate people who dare to be different or dare to challenge the status quo in a way that is too unsettling to the incumbent powers of the day.
Wow, what a subversive and intelligent post. I'm in awe of your intellectual prowess!
Subversive? No, that’s you being free to get offended by accurately seeing the world as it is and not being shy about the way the world really is whether I like it or not.
@Ben, You're also missing a few points. I too am unapologetically, and a non white American born citizen. Your experience in the Middle East is also of a white male presenting individual. In addition to your (valid) points about difference of opinion about LBTQIA+ people in predominantly Islamic countries; we're missing one huge piece of the puzzle; Race and ethnic identity. In the Middle East, not only does ones' passport dictate their experience but so...
@Ben, You're also missing a few points. I too am unapologetically, and a non white American born citizen. Your experience in the Middle East is also of a white male presenting individual. In addition to your (valid) points about difference of opinion about LBTQIA+ people in predominantly Islamic countries; we're missing one huge piece of the puzzle; Race and ethnic identity. In the Middle East, not only does ones' passport dictate their experience but so does their race, and in the Middle East Caucasian and Caucasian features are deemed superior. On my recent trip to Doha, (it was my final destination) customs officer decided to screen me and put me thru the X-Ray; then another officer came and wanted to see my passport, and seeing my American passport, they had a conversation and decided to not X-Ray me anymore and the other officer decided he'd escort me out to the arrivals area landslide.
The world isn't always absolute but people do put in effort to "vote" with their dollars. Whether it be people boycotting Starbucks, to only flying certain airlines, to not bank with major banking companies. They might be a small minority, but they do exist. That's why we have regional banks, Credit Unions, and other "counter" culture brands. Ethics is a controversial conversation, some people care, some don't, some care but value the product or service that they simply don't care. That's like some of my queer friends being repulsed at the idea of eating Chik-Fil-A, and others whose blood type is their signature sauce. The world is round, and dynamic. I too, have flown Emirates, and Qatar, numerous times in the past year, but even I question while I am drinking Veuve Cliquot, there are people from East and Southeast Asia that make this operation a reality and they aren't valued nor compensated as they should be.
@ Nick665 -- Thank you for the thoughtful comments, you make some great points. And you're absolutely right, the experience is no doubt vastly different depending on where you're from, your skin color, etc. Frankly, the same thing is true to a large extent in the West, where people are also treated differently on the basis of things outside of their control.
The starting gun at the victim Olympics.
There is one more aspect - how many slaves from Asian countries died building their infrastructure?
I fly airlines that have good fares and provide good service and go where I need to go.
Why draw a line at airlines? If certain countries are objectionable then boycott all of them completely. Why simply pick on airlines? Stop buying oil and gas, goods made in China etc. Anything short of that is just silly.
Europe criminalizes speech. Telling the truth is a crime in Europe if it offends select groups who can’t handle the truth. Same thing with Canada. If you note this for the Middle East, you should discuss the ethics of doing the same in Europe and Canada. In the U.S. we have victims of violent crimes criminalized for self defense and political persecutions. We have bakers bankrupted for not baking a cake against their conscience by...
Europe criminalizes speech. Telling the truth is a crime in Europe if it offends select groups who can’t handle the truth. Same thing with Canada. If you note this for the Middle East, you should discuss the ethics of doing the same in Europe and Canada. In the U.S. we have victims of violent crimes criminalized for self defense and political persecutions. We have bakers bankrupted for not baking a cake against their conscience by the government. All cops and agents are complicit if they just follow orders.
What is this nonsense? I think you are at the wrong website.
Talk about a broad brush statement. There are 44 Countries in Europe & you're claiming, without any supporting evidence, that it's a crime to tell the truth in each of them. Julia's "what is this nonsense?" comment sums it up precisely
In various ways, European countries tend to be more restrictive with the right to speech and expression than the US.
Hate speech tends to be less protected in Europe than it is in the US. But also in other ways Europe tends to be legally more restrictive of speech and expression than the US.
For example, I may soon again be subject to facing fines for flying the US flag on the residential...
In various ways, European countries tend to be more restrictive with the right to speech and expression than the US.
Hate speech tends to be less protected in Europe than it is in the US. But also in other ways Europe tends to be legally more restrictive of speech and expression than the US.
For example, I may soon again be subject to facing fines for flying the US flag on the residential property in a part of the EU. Guess where? Denmark. And flying the US flag is obviously not hate speech like illegal Holocaust denial in Germany, illegal Armenian genocide denial in France, or some Islamophobic expressions in Sweden.
The only European countries where free speech is a crime are ones I'd guess you list among your favorites: Hungary and Russia.
I am very much a critic of Orban and Putin, including because of their paranoia about LGBTQ+ peoples.
What passes for legally-protected “free speech/expression” is not uniform across countries. In France, for example, they have made it illegal in some circumstances for females to dress in a way that some females think complies with their own religious desire and related peaceful expression. And given the rise of the far-right across so much of Europe and...
I am very much a critic of Orban and Putin, including because of their paranoia about LGBTQ+ peoples.
What passes for legally-protected “free speech/expression” is not uniform across countries. In France, for example, they have made it illegal in some circumstances for females to dress in a way that some females think complies with their own religious desire and related peaceful expression. And given the rise of the far-right across so much of Europe and the more general pandering to the insecurities played on by the far-right and its racists, it’s pretty clear to me that freedom of speech and expression is under greater and greater threat in more and more of Europe.
Now I am going back to cheering for Mbappé.
Let me assure you my dimvitted friend . Free speech in Hungary is definitely not a crime along with any kind of protest or gay parade . Free speech is definitely restricted heavily in my home country of Canada .perhaps something other then your hotel room CNN channel for your edification.
When did Hungary legalize Hate speech up to and including Holocaust denial? Isn’t the statutory penalty for that in Hungary allow for the convicted to be sentenced up to three years in prison?
Even otherwise, Orban’s Hungary has a rotten record on freedom of speech and expression and respect for diversity:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/hungary
The US State Department says this about Hungary:
“ Freedom of Expression: Criminal law provides that any person who incites hatred against any national, ethnic, racial, religious, or certain other designated groups of the population may be prosecuted and convicted of a felony punishable by imprisonment for up to three years. The constitution includes hate speech provisions to “protect the dignity of the Hungarian nation or of any national, ethnic, racial, or religious community.” The...
The US State Department says this about Hungary:
“ Freedom of Expression: Criminal law provides that any person who incites hatred against any national, ethnic, racial, religious, or certain other designated groups of the population may be prosecuted and convicted of a felony punishable by imprisonment for up to three years. The constitution includes hate speech provisions to “protect the dignity of the Hungarian nation or of any national, ethnic, racial, or religious community.” The law prohibits the public denial of, expression of doubt regarding, or minimization of the Holocaust, genocide, and other crimes of the National Socialist (Nazi) and communist regimes; such crimes are punishable by up to three years in prison. The law also prohibits, as a misdemeanor, the wearing, exhibiting, or promoting of the swastika, the logo of the Nazi SS, the symbols of the Arrow Cross, the hammer and sickle, or the five-pointed red star, in a way that harms human dignity or the memory of the victims of dictatorships. The media law also prohibits media content intended to incite hatred or violence against specific minority or majority communities and their members. The law includes the provision that media content must not have the potential to instigate an act of terrorism.
A 2018 law that imposes a 25 percent tax on civil entities that aid or promote immigration remained in force. Several NGOs criticized the law, noting that it penalizes the public expression of opinions that are different from that of the government (see section 5). According to press reports, no entity had paid any tax during the year under the law, and no known tax office investigation or audit had been conducted to that effect.
Independent media were active and expressed a wide variety of views, with some legislative restriction on LGBTQI+ content (see section 6).”
Seems quite clear that the US experts on Orban’s Hungary don’t find Hungary to have legal protections for freedom of speech and freedom of expression as broadly and strongly as the US has. Canada may be another story with regard to comparison than the US to Hungary. And yet Canada too is far more welcoming of diversity than Hungary, and Canada is thankfully not a homophobic Putin kiss-up like Orban’ Hungary.
All of you who have a problem with Ben flying to the UAE or Qatar or flying on their airlines - I assume you also have a problem with him living in Florida... right? And with him flying to several Asian countries, African ones, South American ones (and on all their airlines)?
Just curious...
It's about where to draw the line. Of course everyone draws the line differently but based on Ben's logic there isn't any company, country, or airline he seems he wouldn't engage with.
Completely different. You’re never expected to leave the place where you grew up. You can expect Ben to vote for change but to expect 48% of the population to leave their state or country every time their political party loses is absurd!
Thank you for taking time to discuss this issue. I would like to make some comments and I hope that you take it in a constructive way
1. Financial support: I think your comparison of Heathrow or British airways being owned by the funds from the Middle East is a little bit twisted because it's minority ownership and they don't have a lot of influence over the decisions made at these airports or airlines....
Thank you for taking time to discuss this issue. I would like to make some comments and I hope that you take it in a constructive way
1. Financial support: I think your comparison of Heathrow or British airways being owned by the funds from the Middle East is a little bit twisted because it's minority ownership and they don't have a lot of influence over the decisions made at these airports or airlines. However airports like Hamad or Qatar airways are directly fully owned and controlled by the government, as such they do as the government says. We all know the incident that happened to some Australian women at Hamad and that would never happen at Heathrow. But it does happen in Doha and the main reason is that these airports do not have their own independence and the rule of law does not apply very well in those countries and our rights are not protected under the laws. even if it is protected sometimes it is violated because some government officials just want to do things in their own way with old and close mindedly. Often governments do not pursue these cases because the government officials in these cases are closely related to the ruling family etc. Did you see anyone taking the responsibility for the incident with the Australian women? No...the main issue is the lack of judicial system in these countries on top of lack of well defined rule of laws similar to the west. Just Google corruption cases related to the world cup in Qatar. No judge rules against the government even when the evidence is so strong...
2. Providing coverage. I think that this is where it gets a little bit complicated because opinions are divided. I believe that these governments in the middle east use their airline branding to improve the country's images and hide the human right issues that the West criticize extensively. So by providing positive coverage of these airlines I believe one might say that you are being a part of it. How many times have you expensively covered the human right problems at these airlines? I noticed that you very briefly touch it but never go deep. I am not sure if you actively avoid it or you don't know the situation there. A lot of human right abuses at these airlines on the ground. Many people know the curfew for cabin crew but no one touched the work situation for security guards, cleaning staff, ground staff etc. I don't remember you wrote anything about these either.
Another problem I have is the indirect financial support. You do say that you do not receive financial support from these governments or airlines, which is true but indirectly I feel like you have some conflict of interest here. I think you promote these airlines and show the people that you can fly these products by earning points and you do earn referrals from banks. By inspiring them by these products you do actually financially benefit but if you do not travel these airlines for reviews I am sure your revenue from referrals decline significantly. It is just my guess but I do not know your financial details.
3. Social policies. A lot of gays like to live in the middle east but most Western gays do not get into troubles because they are white or have a western passport but that exclusion does not apply to the indians and Africans because they don't have powerful embassies and they do not get Western media coverage. You might be generalizing from your friends who are somewhat protected in these countries...I don't know but things can go very bad if you are from south Asia or Africa. They also have no mercy for Filipinos...
It's 2024. Everything is fine if you are fine with it.
It is not just limited to the Middle East: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/13/barbados-high-court-decriminalizes-gay-sex
Why one would willingly put oneself's in harms way,
I will never understand.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/oct/21/australian-women-sue-qatar-airways-over-forced-examinations-at-doha-airport
@ Ben ST AUBYN -- That's absolutely awful, I agree. I wrote about this extensively at the time, as this was completely unacceptable, and authorities apologized for what happened. That was an isolated incident, at least for the airport.
If this is about safety and being put in harm's way, look at the number of mass shootings we have in the United States. I could similarly link to an endless number of stories of people...
@ Ben ST AUBYN -- That's absolutely awful, I agree. I wrote about this extensively at the time, as this was completely unacceptable, and authorities apologized for what happened. That was an isolated incident, at least for the airport.
If this is about safety and being put in harm's way, look at the number of mass shootings we have in the United States. I could similarly link to an endless number of stories of people dying in the United States by just going about their business, no?
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that an intellectual simpleton like you trafficks in false equivalencies.
At least gulf airlines are not flying people for free from Western “democracies” to commit genocide in Gaza, like El Al.
The only prospective genocide in that part of the world is the one against Jews that’s literally the first sentence of Hamas’ charter. The bloodshed in Gaza is self-defense.
Now do a post around the ethics of flying an airline from the genocidal Israel
Slightly loaded question.
Especially since it’s based on a false premise.
Very relevant though.
How are the Hostages?
The 8,000+ Palesintian hostages being held in Israeli detention centers?
Anytime! No problems flying El Al here! Never had a bad treatment like some ME airlines.
El Al sucks, but only because they kowtow to the orthodox men who refuse to sit next to a woman.
I much prefer Turkish Air, great meals and wine.
Imagine thinking Turkey is better toward women than Israel.
truth is sometimes uncomfortable
How do you square your nuanced perspective on flying the Middle East carriers and otherwise visiting countries with laws hostile to the LGBT community with the fact that you said you would not visit a certain hotel again because it was part owned by former Republican Congressman Aaron Schock ?
Not enough of a dopamine hit from staying at that hotel, obviously.
Because he doesn't visit those places with his partner and his kid. Also, as others have stated, he benefits from white privilege (just as I do).
OTOH, Adam Schock's reach is limited. A hock doesn't benefit when you do ordinary things.
I think what should really be discussed is the ethics of US carriers and their horrible service, unions that destroy the industry, and the lack of accountability for lost and stolen items. I only fly Middle Eastern carriers to/from Los Angeles. I pay significantly more but it is well worth it not having to deal with the angry old flight attendants on all the US carriers. Even asking for water you get a roll of...
I think what should really be discussed is the ethics of US carriers and their horrible service, unions that destroy the industry, and the lack of accountability for lost and stolen items. I only fly Middle Eastern carriers to/from Los Angeles. I pay significantly more but it is well worth it not having to deal with the angry old flight attendants on all the US carriers. Even asking for water you get a roll of the eye, like they are doing you a favor.
This is air travel for gods sake. It’s not building a rocket. The service is far superior. The hard product is excellent. The food is actually quite good. But the lounges far exceed anything the dismal US carriers have. They are embarrassing actually. And every non-US person laughs at the US airlines.
So, call menu patriotic, I don’t care. I served my country for 25+ years and now I want a quality product delivered with quality service. Only the Middle East airlines like Qatar and Emirates will provide that. Truth and you know it.
Ben, I applaud your openness and stance on this incredibly complicated issue. But as you note, you have to separate the people from the government. People in this country are just as friendly, nice and open-minded (or not) regardless of who our President might be. Congrats on addressing this issue head-on. Also, that's an amazing story about your grandmother. Thanks for sharing.
Ben, you write: "I’m also unapologetically gay, but I don’t let that restrict me from engaging with people from different backgrounds, or with vastly different opinions."
To me, that sentence is key. Do you have these engaging conversations with the locals when you in the Middle East and are open about being gay, having a husband, etc? For me, that's the issue. If you can't even openly talk about your relationship without worrying about...
Ben, you write: "I’m also unapologetically gay, but I don’t let that restrict me from engaging with people from different backgrounds, or with vastly different opinions."
To me, that sentence is key. Do you have these engaging conversations with the locals when you in the Middle East and are open about being gay, having a husband, etc? For me, that's the issue. If you can't even openly talk about your relationship without worrying about the ramifications, why would you want to support people like that? The ME3 became famous because of their business/first class product. Their economy service is nothing special at all and in the case of your QR, they won't even deliver luggage they lost. One of many reasons I will not fly them. Another is their atrocious human rights record. Another is their continued support of Iran and Russia.....and the list goes on.
Cant speak to Lucky's interactions with locals, but I can tell you mine. I worked for a large UAE-based company that had lots of local as well as lots of expat employees. I was recruited in, and I also recruited one of my colleagues from my US-based company to come as well. He was gay and married at the time (still is both!) and the company arranged for his husband to get a rather well...
Cant speak to Lucky's interactions with locals, but I can tell you mine. I worked for a large UAE-based company that had lots of local as well as lots of expat employees. I was recruited in, and I also recruited one of my colleagues from my US-based company to come as well. He was gay and married at the time (still is both!) and the company arranged for his husband to get a rather well paid job at the company as well. They knew exactly who he was. Once I actually got to the company and worked there, I worked in absolutely the most diverse place I every worked in anywhere, with people truly from all over, for better or worse! I managed several local Emiratis as well as several foreigners. My boss was gay, everybody knew. Everybody knew my colleague's husband and who he was and he was included in social events. Everybody knew I was gay. It simply was not a big deal on the groudn and was accepted. I was there in 2015 and one day an Emirati woman who worked for me came into the office and was so excited - Caitlin Jenner had just come out on the cover of some magazine and this Emirati woman was like "arent you excited?!?!" So, there is all of that you mention there. Is it 100 percent uniform no problems? Probably not. One thing that several of my Emirati colleagues told me was that their grandparents were literally nomads in the desert living in tents. Things have moved very quickly and for some people it takes time. But overall, the younger people there especially embrace a lot of things you'd expect younger people in the west to embrace. There is an entrepreneurial spirit and an enthusiasm for doing new things there I havent experienced elsewhere. It's an interesting place, and just because things arent 100% the same as they are there doesnt mean it should be written off. There are challenges, just as there are here, but it's an interesting place with an unmatched mix of people that is very exciting indeed. Also, as somebody else mentioned, a very vibrant gay scene. Very fun,a nd I have several friends still there, most of whom would never dream of living elsewhere.
One anecdotal case is both hard to verify and to use to represent a whole region...the number of out gay people there are very few and far between.
Well that was my lived experience in the UAE. Go see for yourself
You do realize the issue isn't the ordinary circumstances that you described, but rather in the extreme cases where people do get punished for being LGBTQ and there are no protections for you.
People have been detained and lost their jobs solely for the reason of being LGBTQ and with no recourse because of the lack of protections.
That's my experience, and the experience of hundreds I worked with. Many are still there. Please point to specific examples you are talking about. Or are you just going off stereotypes?
"the issue" for me is: life on the ground for most gay people. Extreme cases are rare everywhere, just like homophobic murder in Alabama. I'd live in Doha for a year before I'd move to Alabama, because my ill-infomed bigotry about both places has given me impressions of both, and Doha looks more amenable. The ignorance is clearly my problem. The solution to ignorance? Hint: it's not writing Comments online.
It's hilarious to read these fake enlightened comments that talk about ignorance and complaining about writing comments online as they proceed to write a comment online.
So, you're saying that you worked in a large multinational that used western values to. operate their business. Not entirely the same as engaging locals wherever they are.
Did you not read what I wrote? I worked for a UAE owned/ run / based company. It was owned and operated and financed by Emiratis. People from all over the world worked there. Read my post thoroughly next time
You're correct in that it's not possible to divest 100%, but avoiding airlines from homophobic theocracies built on virtual slave labor is not difficult. Hotel ownership is another. We stopped staying at Brown's in London, for instance, when the Forte family sold 49% of Rocco Forte Hotels to the Saudis in 2023. The Maybourne hotels are also out, because they're owned by the Qatari royal family.
Your ethical boundaries are your choice. It's unreasonable,...
You're correct in that it's not possible to divest 100%, but avoiding airlines from homophobic theocracies built on virtual slave labor is not difficult. Hotel ownership is another. We stopped staying at Brown's in London, for instance, when the Forte family sold 49% of Rocco Forte Hotels to the Saudis in 2023. The Maybourne hotels are also out, because they're owned by the Qatari royal family.
Your ethical boundaries are your choice. It's unreasonable, though, to expect your high-profile blog to escape any criticism at all. I don't think it's "shaming", more suggesting that as someone with a particular influence you might consider your choices carefully.
Unlike Iran with some trappings of democracy while being a theocratic state, the GCC countries are most certainly not theocratic states. The GCC countries are monarchical states with some interesting family dynamics related to tribal power distribution arrangements and the allowance for men to have up to four wives at a time and being liberal with divorce and remarriage for heterosexual males. The religious priests/“clergy” in GCC countries are the bought and paid for lap-dogs...
Unlike Iran with some trappings of democracy while being a theocratic state, the GCC countries are most certainly not theocratic states. The GCC countries are monarchical states with some interesting family dynamics related to tribal power distribution arrangements and the allowance for men to have up to four wives at a time and being liberal with divorce and remarriage for heterosexual males. The religious priests/“clergy” in GCC countries are the bought and paid for lap-dogs of the rather horny rulers who control the preachers to mollify the public for them.
“built on virtual slave labor”
Are you openly admitting you don’t know 4th grade US history?
Ok let's use Saudi Arabia for a thought experiment. I make no dispute about your premise, or about your conclusion. I'm not rebutting what you said. But maybe you'[ll find this interesting. It's plausible to say that on Women's liiving conditions, on health outcomes and on other metrics, Saudi Arabia is the most rapidly improving country in thye world. It's also plausible to say that they started from way further back (on Women, certainly). But...
Ok let's use Saudi Arabia for a thought experiment. I make no dispute about your premise, or about your conclusion. I'm not rebutting what you said. But maybe you'[ll find this interesting. It's plausible to say that on Women's liiving conditions, on health outcomes and on other metrics, Saudi Arabia is the most rapidly improving country in thye world. It's also plausible to say that they started from way further back (on Women, certainly). But the amount of change, in Women's favour, is greater than perhaps any other jurisdiction in the world, in the last few years. If true, does this have merit? Does it suggest how we should think about Saudi Arabia? Does it mitigate how we should think about MBS? It's a question I consider when thinking about these things. Do you keep "punishing" the Saudis while they improve the lives of Saudi Women at this rapid pace? Is there a threshold they must cross before we acknowledge the improvements? I'm not sure the outright dismissal of nuance is useful in the Saudi case. Or any case for that matter. Boycott cuz they don't have gay marriage? Shun cuz their women wear burkas? Ridicule cuz they still have Morality Police?
I did not read the article but the moment I read the headline I said to myself "You are going to state that it is ok to fly a M/E carrier because you do it, and you do it for 'work'". But if, if a loved one was hauled off and 'inspected' like all those Australian women were after finding a baby in the terminal rubbish bin, you would sing a different tune. Again, I've not read what you wrote but I already know what you wrote.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/oct/21/australian-women-sue-qatar-airways-over-forced-examinations-at-doha-airport
Do you know about the history of the US CBP and its predecessors engaging in strip searches and body cavity searches of innocent African-American women at US ports of entry? There are unfortunately problems all around with misogyny and racism, when it comes to traveling the world.
Why would you comment on a post you haven't even bothered to read?
I love middle eastern airlines. I do not care about paying more for a local airline with worse service. Western airlines too busy playing stock market to use higher fares to improve universal customer outcomes. Also Emirates paid their employees a 20 week salary bonus. Didn’t just enrich their CEO making 20 mil a year like United’s. Americans whining about ethics in the Middle East are too busy missing the big picture that Dubai has...
I love middle eastern airlines. I do not care about paying more for a local airline with worse service. Western airlines too busy playing stock market to use higher fares to improve universal customer outcomes. Also Emirates paid their employees a 20 week salary bonus. Didn’t just enrich their CEO making 20 mil a year like United’s. Americans whining about ethics in the Middle East are too busy missing the big picture that Dubai has given millions of people from developing countries the chance to have respectable middle class jobs free from the abusive workplaces they’d endure in their own home countries. The people who are building Dubai were not looking at a drastically better working conditions in their home countries. The home governments of those migrant works are the ones morally liable for the outcomes of their citizens. Speak up against them. (Context: I spent years living in one of the countries that many people leave from to work in Dubai. I have seen how their own country and people treat them. It’s tragic.)
https://www.businessinsider.com/emirates-to-pay-out-20-weeks-bonus-after-record-profits-2024-5
Really? How about talking about ethics of flying US based airlines for a country that is funding and providing weapons for an ongoing genocide in Gaza? The hypocrisy is nauseating.
US airlines aren't owned by the federal government. That's the difference.
While we're on the subject, don't you call Hamas and remind them that if they release the rest of the hostages and surrender, the war will end? They're wholly and soley responsible for the plight of Gaza.
Ummmm, they are highly subsidized by the US government.
Its a lie when someone says if Hamas does this or that and war will end.
Palestinians have been getting killed long before Hamas's existence. Sabra and Shatila are a perfect example of that.
I'm sure you are a neutral arbiter of truth when it comes to Israel's relations with the Muslim world, Takhliq.
really? so the decades of oppression and occupation before Hamas even existed are all Hamas' fault? Hamas bears a lot of responsibility for the current situation, and likely knew how Israel would respond. Doesn't mean the world started on October 7th 2023 though.
Your comment is like saying Israel was wholly and solely responsible for the terrorist attack of October 7th. Equally nonsensical.
I have an idea - don't attack and kill 900 innocent people. Speaking as an American with no ducks in this fight.
I have a better idea - don't occupy someone else's country?
Israel is the indigenous homeland of the Jews, Julia. It's their country. Arabs (who—spoiler alert—came from the ARABIAN PENINSULA) are the colonizers; they weren't kind or gentle when they colonized the Levant centuries ago. Please crack open a history book.
You should crack open a basic geography book. Israel is on the “Arabian Peninsula”.
Ben: I agree with your bottom line, but your dismissal of the financial aspect is thinly argued. You're basically saying "because nobody can divest entirely, then any attempt at divestment is meaningless."
I drive a very energy-efficient car. Environmentally, it would be even better if I took the bus to work, but I don't. But this doesn't mean that I might-as-well commute in a 1-ton diesel pickup truck. I'm doing something meaningful, even if I...
Ben: I agree with your bottom line, but your dismissal of the financial aspect is thinly argued. You're basically saying "because nobody can divest entirely, then any attempt at divestment is meaningless."
I drive a very energy-efficient car. Environmentally, it would be even better if I took the bus to work, but I don't. But this doesn't mean that I might-as-well commute in a 1-ton diesel pickup truck. I'm doing something meaningful, even if I could possibly do more.
If you're inclined to want to divest from countries whose government you disapprove of, it means something not to fly on their airlines, even if you still need to connect through Heathrow sometimes.
I maintain awareness of travel ethics, but truly, if I had a vested interest in being ethical, I'd refrain from travel to begin with.
Reduce my carbon footprint + increase my funds available to give more to people in need.
Really, the only ethical lines I'm currently alert to that I won't cross are riding an elephant and laying next to a lion, since direct physical harm is 99% of the time required for...
I maintain awareness of travel ethics, but truly, if I had a vested interest in being ethical, I'd refrain from travel to begin with.
Reduce my carbon footprint + increase my funds available to give more to people in need.
Really, the only ethical lines I'm currently alert to that I won't cross are riding an elephant and laying next to a lion, since direct physical harm is 99% of the time required for those activities. I did pet a Cheetah in Canberra, and felt no more unclean about it than I do about visiting a zoo. (And certainly there are people who have their quarrels with zoos)
In the end is not if you're giving money to ME countries and how that is unavoidable regardless of the carrier/airport. The truth is that you prefer a product over another one, and you're willing to use the superior product regardless of its owner agenda and if it goes against your beliefs. That doesn't make you an hypocrite or anything. You just have to accept it instead of trying to justify yourself. Lots of people...
In the end is not if you're giving money to ME countries and how that is unavoidable regardless of the carrier/airport. The truth is that you prefer a product over another one, and you're willing to use the superior product regardless of its owner agenda and if it goes against your beliefs. That doesn't make you an hypocrite or anything. You just have to accept it instead of trying to justify yourself. Lots of people are pro LGBT, yet they go to church. Is just how life works.
Excellent post. I would like to add that contrary to what some US based airline people may think, those (gay and all) working the cabins of Emirates and Qatar Airways CHOOSE to work for those airlines. And your observation about NOT being incarcerated for BEING gay is correct. What people do in bedrooms is not for the authorities in Dubai or Doha. This is not ideal of course, but I choose an airline based on...
Excellent post. I would like to add that contrary to what some US based airline people may think, those (gay and all) working the cabins of Emirates and Qatar Airways CHOOSE to work for those airlines. And your observation about NOT being incarcerated for BEING gay is correct. What people do in bedrooms is not for the authorities in Dubai or Doha. This is not ideal of course, but I choose an airline based on route, aircraft, price and most important of all, inflight service. Not based on how many openly gay saunas and nightclubs are in their respective hubs.
Why is there no mention of these airlines overflying Russian Airspace? They ignore Russian sanctions, some fly to Moscow and they put their passengers in danger if an emergency landing has to be made inside Russia.
Dear me, here's another victim of Western Kool-Aid.
If you hate "The West" so much, then by all means relocate to Moscow or Beijing.
@Tucker Carlson
Such nonsense. A person can still live in the West (or any region) while still criticizing it.
It doesn't matter what the comment is the outsourced staff will delete it no matter what.
Outsourced staff - Do you think you will have a paycheck a year from now if you continue to stop us Americans from expressing our opinions? It's the founding principles of our country.
I have been a frequent reader for many years and travel extensively to all parts of the globe. I have never commented prior to this but felt I should this time. This is an extremely well written piece and I agree with your insight and perspective. I find the vast majority of your reviews and articles to be well balanced and informative; this one just really stood out. Well done !
First thanks for sharing your thoughts Ben. Second, it is always a struggle for me when booking my flights and ME carriers have the best overall values. Just refering for myself, I always try to decide the morally right choice. So before s.o. or all of you starting attacking me, I use the word morally loosely. In a global world we live in, it is really not easy to know exactly everthing. Sometimes you know...
First thanks for sharing your thoughts Ben. Second, it is always a struggle for me when booking my flights and ME carriers have the best overall values. Just refering for myself, I always try to decide the morally right choice. So before s.o. or all of you starting attacking me, I use the word morally loosely. In a global world we live in, it is really not easy to know exactly everthing. Sometimes you know it and have choosen appropriately or you did not research and decided poorly.
My opinion, just stay honest to your yourself and try to do your best as good as you can. Nobody in this is world is purely and 100% perfect.
Hey Ben, I've probably been reading your blog for the last 8-10 years. It amazes me that you take the time of day to address these trolls online, and I understand it also gives you content for a good, fair article. Since day one, you have stayed true to yourself and your readers. Keep up the good work and continue to be as inclusive as you have been up to this point. Keep up the good work!
Well most people are brainwashed by fake news from the Globalist Satanist Network.
LOL say what now, Jeffrey?
If that's sarcasm, well done, if not then seek help
Your thoughts come across as motivated reasoning. Of course, as you say, you don't have a financial relationship with the carriers. However, your reviews of their products generate (I assume) very significant traffic. I think it's quite a bit different as a passenger where you fly through Heathrow in passing versus you have an income stream that relies on engaging with their products.
We already know you won't stay at Hyatt Place/LAX due to...
Your thoughts come across as motivated reasoning. Of course, as you say, you don't have a financial relationship with the carriers. However, your reviews of their products generate (I assume) very significant traffic. I think it's quite a bit different as a passenger where you fly through Heathrow in passing versus you have an income stream that relies on engaging with their products.
We already know you won't stay at Hyatt Place/LAX due to its owner (fair enough). Is there anything a Gulf Country/carrier could do that would make it so you felt you couldn't ethically fly them? Why is it different than the LAX hotel situation?
What's wrong with the Hyatt Place / LAX owner?
Just google Aaron Schock and tons of stuff will come up.
@ Andrew M -- Hey, those are both great points, so let me address them.
First of all, I can't say that I have reason to believe that reviews of Gulf carriers generate more traffic than any other reviews. Honestly, if I cared about blog traffic, I'd stop doing trip reports, and would just be writing about people exposing their genitals at the airport or getting into fights, because that's what generates clicks.
I...
@ Andrew M -- Hey, those are both great points, so let me address them.
First of all, I can't say that I have reason to believe that reviews of Gulf carriers generate more traffic than any other reviews. Honestly, if I cared about blog traffic, I'd stop doing trip reports, and would just be writing about people exposing their genitals at the airport or getting into fights, because that's what generates clicks.
I review airlines the way that I do because it's my passion, and it's a labor of love, without a direct return on investment. And anyone who has been a longtime reader knows that I get just as much of a thrill out of reviewing TAAG Angola first class as I do Emirates first class. Actually, probably way more, and for that matter, it generates way more interest as well.
The Hyatt Place/Hyatt House LAX situation is an interesting point to bring up. As I've said before, I don't think anyone in the world has 100% consistent logic in every way, but I'll tell you why I view it differently.
To me, the owner of that hotel represents the absolute worst of the community I'm part of. He spent his time in office voting to restrict the rights of gays, then later came out and issued a non-apology, about how it's hard to grow up in a conservative household. C'mon now, that's true for so many gay people, but he has never (to my knowledge) acknowledged the harm he did to the community.
To me, there's a difference between taking issue with a particular person and not supporting them, rather than just saying "I'd never go to the Middle East, they're evil," or something along those lines. And that's partly because I think that perspective lacks nuance.
Like I said, I think anyone's moral stances on things, or where people choose to draw the line, can be picked apart. I see where you're coming from. But hopefully you also see my perspective here.
Well written, thoughtful
You may want to check
"They don’t live their " (there)
However
Ben, I think your financial comments are a little bit flawed. As others have pointed out, there is huge difference between flying an airline wholly owned by a government, and flying through an airport in a different country where said government owns a small stake. I want to highlight something you wrote in a review on the LAX Hyatt House/Place: "However, I wouldn’t stay again, because I have issues supporting the owner and developer of...
Ben, I think your financial comments are a little bit flawed. As others have pointed out, there is huge difference between flying an airline wholly owned by a government, and flying through an airport in a different country where said government owns a small stake. I want to highlight something you wrote in a review on the LAX Hyatt House/Place: "However, I wouldn’t stay again, because I have issues supporting the owner and developer of the property (Aaron Schock)."
Ok, so by the statement, you definitely will use your wallet to voice your objection to someone on a political/ethical basis. We are then talking about where we draw the lines, not if.
IMO, it is a lot easier to boycott certain companies, countries, etc when it was not something you were really into in the first place. Are you really boycotting the Hyatt House LAX because you are taking some moral/ethical stand against a guy who was late coming out and not a great ally to his community? Or is it because there is another Hyatt property that is closer to LAX with better elite recognition? When your business is a blog reviewing aspirational travel, it would be really difficult to not fly the newest and nicest products from the ME3. But let's be honest--is it better to financially support Qatar than Aaron Schock? I find the way you draw your lines suspect.
I think you have to ask how South East Asian passengers are treated in Economy.If problems occur they are abandoned. Nothing remotely compared to European carriers.Muslim professional Women from USA try to Avoid them due to Prejudice of single women travelling alone and are routinely ignored even in Business class.
At least in European Airlines every one gets same lousy treatment.BA are you listening.
I think you meant South Asian, not South-East Asian!
I'm going to betray the gay brotherhood here and let everyone in on a secret that most of us know: The most active place to go for gay "stuff" is the Middle East. So many people who know nothing of the world and nothing of how gays are treated other than some outrage blog they read once don't know how things actually are on the ground, and let me tell you that when I want...
I'm going to betray the gay brotherhood here and let everyone in on a secret that most of us know: The most active place to go for gay "stuff" is the Middle East. So many people who know nothing of the world and nothing of how gays are treated other than some outrage blog they read once don't know how things actually are on the ground, and let me tell you that when I want to go somewhere and have an amazing gay time, it's the Middle East. "But you have to avoid places like Saudi Arabia, right?" No, Saudi Arabia is actually one of THE best places to go for this despite everything you have heard. The more "officially repressive" you think a place is the easier it is to be gay, as long as you aren't kissing a guy on the street, otherwise you're likely going to be just fine, especially as an American traveling there. the greatest irony of the strict Muslim codes of conduct disallowing men and women to intermingle is that men only hang out with other men......and I'll let you draw your own conclusions from that.
Next time you meet a gay person from Saudi Arabia or someplace "strict" ask them if it's dangerous for them in their country and watch how quickly they laugh in your face, it'll be educational for you.
Now, the treatment of women, jews, and others I can't speak for and won't try to, but strictly from a gay male perspective let me assure you that what you've "read" about the Middle East is not anywhere close to accurate, in fact it's a very thriving gay destination.
100% agree - I've lived there and it's one of the gayer places I've lived. Know many friends who are still in the UAE and elsewhere and have very fill / fulfilling lives, and most of even the locals know and nobody cares.
Shocking. The hypocrisy of these men behaving ultra
conservative and beyond the towel and close doors..the absolute bxxxx!
It’s easy to find gay sex, sure. Not so easy to get out of a punishment (particularly for locals) if you’re found out. And not easy to live as yourself, to be in a loving relationship out in the open as you can in any free country.
But if sex is all you care about…
Yeah, I'm sure it's all fun and games until they get over-confident, and one small indiscretion brings them to the attention of authorities.
Sounds as though these guys who laugh about the threat to them are living in a fool's paradise. It might be easy to pick up men on the street for a quick poke, but how easy is it to set up house and live openly as a gay couple in the suburbs or Riyadh or Kuwait City without running into trouble?
Yeah none of "the gays" posting on here talk about local authorities posing as gay people on websites to trap real gay people...
Julia, please tell me your personal experiences of being a gay man in (either living or visiting) the Middle East, especially on this comment that specifically talks about people making assumptions about how things are based on things they've heard but don't actually have any experience in personally.
I unequivocally agree that you have evolved and are open minded on social and moral/ethical issues, unlike other bloggers who adamantly stick to their views. American exceptionalism is equivalent to American hypocricy. We do not focus on antisemitism perpetrated by white evangelical christians but only target on Muslims. They are anti non-whites, anti gays and lesbians, and anti non christians. They are on the verge to control all three branches of governments as well as...
I unequivocally agree that you have evolved and are open minded on social and moral/ethical issues, unlike other bloggers who adamantly stick to their views. American exceptionalism is equivalent to American hypocricy. We do not focus on antisemitism perpetrated by white evangelical christians but only target on Muslims. They are anti non-whites, anti gays and lesbians, and anti non christians. They are on the verge to control all three branches of governments as well as state and local governments. Their policies will mirror those of Islamic governments. Like you, I don't boycott countries whose government policies are undemocratic. I visit them to mingle with the locals to understand more about their histories, cultures, religions and cuisines plus nature. Traditional travel focuses on the knowledge about the host countries, not the journey, hotel and airport lounges. By hiring local tour guides and staying in local hotels, I am supporting the livelihood of the locals, not necessarily the government. There is no country in the world whose citizens love and respect their government because politicians only care about themselves and enrich themselves. Except Bhutan. Middle Easter is a fascinating and captivating but also extremely volatile region to me, even three decades after I worked and lived in Kuwait. Those who continue to blast you for patronizing the gulf states , despite being gay, are ignorant at best and hypocritical at worst. Same those people who condemn socialism but none of them calls out to abolish social security and corporate welfare. I love your blog because you cover issues outside the journey of travel. Others call politics. It is not. Government policies, cultures, religions are all part of travel that contribute to the knowledge of the host country. We do not live in a democratic country, based on electoral college vote and the filibuster: The former is the basic fundamental civil right and the later is the backbone and bloodstream of the federal government functionality.
wonderful thoughtful post - especially pointing out idealism vs reality
to understand a culture - one shouldn't enter with an unchangeable bias
i'm gay but i don't demand the world conform to me
Conforming and allowing you to exist with the same rights as everyone else is VERY different, fellow homosexual.
@Ben, even though I may not agree with everything here, I still want to say that I appreciate you taking the time to engage and respond to feedback in a meaningful way from our previous discussions.
I disagree with the grouping of all gulf airlines although I understand that this post can't include all naunces because your one person. I personally as a gay person will still fly Emirates and ethiad if I had to probably although would prefer not to because I kinda done hiding my identity all the time, but In no way shape or form can I as a Jew sleep with a clear conscious in a directly...
I disagree with the grouping of all gulf airlines although I understand that this post can't include all naunces because your one person. I personally as a gay person will still fly Emirates and ethiad if I had to probably although would prefer not to because I kinda done hiding my identity all the time, but In no way shape or form can I as a Jew sleep with a clear conscious in a directly Qatari owned plane knowing that Hamas the terroist organization also uses their services and is directly funded by the Qatari government. The strict religious rules are also more enforced in doha than Dubai and it makes it actively more dangerous personally.
This comment raises an interesting question. Let me say very clearly I'm not expressing an opinion, I honestly don't know what my opinion should be. It's about Qatar. On the one hand, one wants to punish Qatar for its uniquely suportive relationship with Hamas. In practice, though, talks with Hamas are not possible, except through Qatar, which credible people say is performing this role in good faith. If the logic is "Qatar doesn't deserve to...
This comment raises an interesting question. Let me say very clearly I'm not expressing an opinion, I honestly don't know what my opinion should be. It's about Qatar. On the one hand, one wants to punish Qatar for its uniquely suportive relationship with Hamas. In practice, though, talks with Hamas are not possible, except through Qatar, which credible people say is performing this role in good faith. If the logic is "Qatar doesn't deserve to be included in any civilized convo and therefore should be banished" (a defensible position, ethically, after what Hamas did 07OCT), it materially reduces/delays the possibility of progress on Priority One: hostage release.
"Keep your friends close, your enemies closer"
October 7th was Palestine Uprising in Gaza concentration camp.
Taleban had office in Doha more than a decade, from where all politican and business relations were handled. Now Afganishtan is the "superpower" because no one could conquer it and Taleban is on the power. No Soviet Union, Russian Federation nor USA who escaped from there fastest than any other conquers, leaving behind military equipment worth hundreds of millions. Is USA civilized convo?
USA...
October 7th was Palestine Uprising in Gaza concentration camp.
Taleban had office in Doha more than a decade, from where all politican and business relations were handled. Now Afganishtan is the "superpower" because no one could conquer it and Taleban is on the power. No Soviet Union, Russian Federation nor USA who escaped from there fastest than any other conquers, leaving behind military equipment worth hundreds of millions. Is USA civilized convo?
USA escaped from f....ng Afganisthan!!!
Qatar Airlines is the best in the World, thousands of people all over the world compete to work there.
This all strikes me as cognitive dissonance, both on behalf of Ben and most of the lapdog commenters.
1. Comparing 20% ownership of IAG/Heathrow with 100% ownership of state run airlines is a false equivalency. So assuming you actually wanted to vote with your feet against regimes that are openly oppressive against gays, simply avoiding ME flag carriers gets you at a minimum 80% there...but your excuse is if it's not 100% effective, might as...
This all strikes me as cognitive dissonance, both on behalf of Ben and most of the lapdog commenters.
1. Comparing 20% ownership of IAG/Heathrow with 100% ownership of state run airlines is a false equivalency. So assuming you actually wanted to vote with your feet against regimes that are openly oppressive against gays, simply avoiding ME flag carriers gets you at a minimum 80% there...but your excuse is if it's not 100% effective, might as well not even bother? Nevermind also the fact that Qatar and other ME countries took stakes in these entities only to push their own political influence, but neither IAG nor Heathrow is beholden to Qatar. Nevermind also that there are plenty of other airlines to fly if 20% ownership by oppressive regimes is too much for you. Let's face it, you want to fly nice airlines, and you will justify it however way you need to.
2. Your many adoring readers cheer on your justification of purchasing decisions, based mainly on the concept of blurred lines of ownership %, official policy vs practice, and government/people. These are the same people who cheered on boycotts of US states that passed laws they didn't agree with, that aren't even on the same planet as ME laws...or that continue to violently protest at US schools for anti-Israel causes...no problem with boycotts based on blurred lines issues there? Weird how you will boycott US states, but give the most oppressive regimes on the planet a free pass, but only if they have luxurious airlines and hotels of course.
3. It's not all about you. These countries are also extremely oppressive to women. And as others have said, they are more oppressive to their own people than to foreign visitors, since such incidents would cause international blowback. These countries also fund other bad actors in the region who don't have nice airlines. Your personal experience as a luxury tourist doesn't make that reality go away.
4. You seem to think you are "engaging" with these cultures and somehow driving change. You are not. You are simply funding them. How many conversations about homosexuality and women's rights have you had with ME officials while in these countries? Gone to any protests while there? If you think you are changing minds, you're kidding yourself. More likely you are simply putting people who live there at risk.
This is all akin to logic of the typical climate change SJW who frequently flies internationally, yet justifies it by telling themselves "well, the plane would fly anyway with or without me on it". Yes, my dear, but you also paid these companies money, and are part of the overall demand that determines flight schedules, prices and investments. In the same way, you are complicit too, despite what you tell yourself.
Tl;dr
You're not forced to agree with him.
Btw, given that you criticized SJWs don't expect people to agree with you, since the majority of people here (besides me) are one of them or with them.
This answer is amazing and spot on. I spefically love your point on activism and engaging with the culture or rather the unengagement, just traveling to UAE as a gay person but closeted doesn't make you engaged and doesn't change anyone's opinions on it. And if you actually start going to protest there, I'm not so sure the locals would still be ambivalent to you now that you disrespect their culture. Literally every gay club...
This answer is amazing and spot on. I spefically love your point on activism and engaging with the culture or rather the unengagement, just traveling to UAE as a gay person but closeted doesn't make you engaged and doesn't change anyone's opinions on it. And if you actually start going to protest there, I'm not so sure the locals would still be ambivalent to you now that you disrespect their culture. Literally every gay club there get shutdown immediately by the government if it openly states it's stance, go check out the Dubai subreddit on it. And your comment on women is also spot on, especially even more in Qatar, I'm not so sure Ben would have a fine experience if he was a single woman there.
Ben I don't think you're a bad person obviously just because I disagree with you, it's just a disagreement.
Have you actually been to any of these countries and experienced these places? Have you actually interacted with anybody living there? I've lived in the UAE and my experiences both with other expats and with locals, and I interacted heavily with both, and people of both genders, are dramatically at odds with the stereotyped/distanced view through which you appear to have experienced these cultures.
So is your point that nobody should waste their breath justifying their actions to others, or that this entire blog and everyone who finds use in it should rot in hell?
Or is it that every one of us (you included) is a hypocrite?
Or is it that you have the most virtue of anyone?
You lost me at your critique of international travel itself, since presumably your presence and gold status means you've been a reader for awhile and partake in the hobby.
"Furthermore, there’s a difference between government policies, and the reality of visiting places, and meeting people. Things aren’t always as they seem, and I think often the best way to form an opinion is to experience something for yourself."
Exactly this. Often times the people who say the worst things about a country haven't actually been and are basing their opinion on what they read online from who knows what source. I wonder if the...
"Furthermore, there’s a difference between government policies, and the reality of visiting places, and meeting people. Things aren’t always as they seem, and I think often the best way to form an opinion is to experience something for yourself."
Exactly this. Often times the people who say the worst things about a country haven't actually been and are basing their opinion on what they read online from who knows what source. I wonder if the people who lambaste you for visiting the Gulf or flying Gulf carriers have actually been to these places themselves.
They love judging on the ones they hate, but they don't accept it because they've already categorized "judging" as a bad thing, without knowing they do it on a daily basis.
Meanwhile if you suggest that AA has shrunk ORD/Chicago due to a shrinking market (not true but I digress), you'll get hoards of brigaders slamming you for even thinking of anything slightly negative about their hometown Chicago.
That said fully agree @Julia. It would be great if we all relied on facts and figures rather than opinions and emotions.
I have visited them, and they're not places I'd want to stay for any length of time, because even though many of the people who live and work there are fine and reasonable, those people are not the government, or the security forces, or the fanatical religious nutjobs who inform public policy. Those fine and reasonable people live with restricted internet, religious laws that often forbid them an alcoholic drink, forbid them from practising any...
I have visited them, and they're not places I'd want to stay for any length of time, because even though many of the people who live and work there are fine and reasonable, those people are not the government, or the security forces, or the fanatical religious nutjobs who inform public policy. Those fine and reasonable people live with restricted internet, religious laws that often forbid them an alcoholic drink, forbid them from practising any other religion, or oblige women to cover their bodies and their hair under penalty of imprisonment or worse. The constitution of the Maldives, for instance, prescribes Islamic beliefs as mandatory for citizenship. That's about as far away from "freedom" as you can get.
@Julia
To be fair though Lucky is basing his experiences on 1 or 2 day visits transiting through these countries. I wonder how different he would view the situation if he, Ford, and their son moved to somewhere in the Middle East and tried living there as 2 married men raising a child.
@Julia
In many cases, he doesn't even set foot in the countries, or go anywhere besides the VIP lounge of his five-star hotel. He can hardly even say he's "visited" them.
Very well written artice!
Focus must be on the travel(airlines, experienses etc.), not on the side product as politics is. Imagine if your sunny muslim readers start demand that you should not fly with shiia muslim state airlines or vv :-) When UAE blocked their airspace for Qatar Airlines solely on the political reasons, they got finally fined and a lot.
I personally do not fly with ElAl and that is the only...
Very well written artice!
Focus must be on the travel(airlines, experienses etc.), not on the side product as politics is. Imagine if your sunny muslim readers start demand that you should not fly with shiia muslim state airlines or vv :-) When UAE blocked their airspace for Qatar Airlines solely on the political reasons, they got finally fined and a lot.
I personally do not fly with ElAl and that is the only " no fly" airline. Should I avoid US3 because of the Guantanamo Bay and the human rights violation there? No, I am gonna fly with AA or others if necessary.
Is it everything ok with human and minority rights in every US state? No. Instead of going moral about other countries and religion, those critisizers should make their own country better.
Majority people in the World do not accept same sex relations, especially in public and ME and Asia. Respect their choice or live with the consequences.
My ethical dilemma with the gulf countries is that they use slave labour for most of their infrastructure. Millions of workers are trapped on extremely low wages with confiscated passports, horrible living conditions and exploitative work contracts. That fundamentally underpins the economies of the UAE, Qatar and Kuwait. Acting ethically is not about avoiding everything associated with those countries (because that's practically impossible) but doing as much as you reasonably can to avoid supporting this...
My ethical dilemma with the gulf countries is that they use slave labour for most of their infrastructure. Millions of workers are trapped on extremely low wages with confiscated passports, horrible living conditions and exploitative work contracts. That fundamentally underpins the economies of the UAE, Qatar and Kuwait. Acting ethically is not about avoiding everything associated with those countries (because that's practically impossible) but doing as much as you reasonably can to avoid supporting this system. You don't have to be absolute to still be acting ethically, as long as you are aware and consciously trying to do as much as can be reasonably expected of you.
Thank you, Ben, for sharing this article. I'm sorry to see some of the comments responding to this post.
The world is a divided place and you seem like an empathetic and objective individual. I love reading your blog because it provides me insights into the world - outside of my little bubble here in Singapore (saying that as an individual who comes from a place which is incredibly world viewed!).
I look...
Thank you, Ben, for sharing this article. I'm sorry to see some of the comments responding to this post.
The world is a divided place and you seem like an empathetic and objective individual. I love reading your blog because it provides me insights into the world - outside of my little bubble here in Singapore (saying that as an individual who comes from a place which is incredibly world viewed!).
I look forward to following more of your content and hope you visit more countries and try more products on my side of the world!
Kudos to you for rising above partisanship and narrow-mindedness that seems to be all around us. Another reason why yours is the best airline/points blog.
On an unrelated note, with massive devals across the points/miles industry for flying in J/Y and significant rollouts of premium economy by most airlines, can we start seeing reviews of premium economy cabins too and hearing your thoughts on good premium economy redemptions.
You failed to mention the Maldives, which is actively (and half-assedly) trying to ban only Jewish Israelis. Yet, you mentioned that you are going to fly there and support that country just to try out an airline which we both know is vaporware. What gives?
@ Hammerofguam -- I think I addressed most of this in the post, no, because a similar perspective applies? I strongly disagree with that policy, and would be a shame if it were implemented.
I haven't exactly said positive things about the carrier's prospects, and the airline will probably lose tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) operating the roundtrip flight I'm booked on, since there's basically no one booked on it.
So in...
@ Hammerofguam -- I think I addressed most of this in the post, no, because a similar perspective applies? I strongly disagree with that policy, and would be a shame if it were implemented.
I haven't exactly said positive things about the carrier's prospects, and the airline will probably lose tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) operating the roundtrip flight I'm booked on, since there's basically no one booked on it.
So in my quest to cover airlines of all kinds, what exactly is your objection? I'm hardly providing financial support, I'm not providing positive publicity, etc. Heck, I'm not even visiting the country, I'm just passing through.
Wait, I know you want to quickly get back to Miami but not a single Maldives hotel review?
Lot's of points property there, not even one night?
Ben in that post: The Maldives is heavily reliant on tourism, which is why the country has compromised so much on its religious “morals,” by allowing alcohol and much more at resorts; it’s interesting that this is the place where the country draws the line
But then one paragraph later you admit the ban will affect Muslims who hold Israel passports. So it’s clear Maldives isn’t doing this under religious “morals”, but a blatantly political...
Ben in that post: The Maldives is heavily reliant on tourism, which is why the country has compromised so much on its religious “morals,” by allowing alcohol and much more at resorts; it’s interesting that this is the place where the country draws the line
But then one paragraph later you admit the ban will affect Muslims who hold Israel passports. So it’s clear Maldives isn’t doing this under religious “morals”, but a blatantly political one. Whereas the issues in the gulf are mostly religious and not political
Actually, the Maldives is banning all Israeli citizens regardless of their religion. So that applies to Christian and Muslim Israeli passport holders as well as the Jewish ones. And Jews with non-Israeli passports can still visit.
Your comment about perspectives between a government and the people is spot on. We here in the United States seem to be the only ones who associate an entire country with its official government ideas. Travel most anywhere else and the people you meet will say that they don’t agree with those who run the country. They are always able to separate ideals from reality. If only more people here in the US could do the same.
Actually most of the world associates the entire country of the US (and its people) with the US Government. That is until they start talking to you one on one as a person…. That is the beauty of travel. If you think otherwise please go visit Serbia or Iraq, wonderful people but you will get an earful that you didn’t solicit.
Good article and some solid points made. If someone wants to see divisiveness and a country with a horrendous track record, look no further than the US.
I do have to chuckle when I see people mention withholding financial support from a company. Yes, strength in numbers can make a difference in a balance sheet. Look no further than Adidas, Papa John's and Gamestop. But if you think that Qatar cares about you not...
Good article and some solid points made. If someone wants to see divisiveness and a country with a horrendous track record, look no further than the US.
I do have to chuckle when I see people mention withholding financial support from a company. Yes, strength in numbers can make a difference in a balance sheet. Look no further than Adidas, Papa John's and Gamestop. But if you think that Qatar cares about you not redeeming miles for Q Suites or Emirates gives a damn about you not buying a rountrip ticket in economy, then you are sadly mistaken folks. They don't need your support or money. They have plenty of both within their own countries.
Most countries would collapse without tourism dollars. The UAE is not one of them. By a mile.
Sorry, but this is just intellectually dishonest. The US has a lot of warts and has made major stumbles, but you cannot put us on par with Islamic theocracies. Please read more history.
@Sabrina Carpenter
Why not?
Is starting a war by faking that they're under attack, resulting in deaths of countless civilians and soldiers from multiple nations, not even winning that war, and never apologizing, any better than criminalizing homosexuality?
Absolutely.. The US is completely hypocritical and definitely can be lumped along with some of these fundamentalist countries.. look at the current politicians trying to take away rights of women trying to push ten commandments in schools if this doesn't sound like extreme at least in countries I don't know what else would be.
Please read up on how the US was founded and through what means (rape, murder, slavery, abuse). If you think our hands are clean throughout 200+ years of history, then you an idiot.
Sorry, but slavery that occurred in the 1860s and before is less egregious than gender apartheid/capital punishment/slave labor for homosexuals occurring in the 2020s. 100%, end of story.
The story of America is not that people here once held slaves. It's that we abolished slavery, that we fought a war over the abolishment of slavery—and the abolitionists won.
I'm sorry you can't let go of atrocities that happened to your ancestors decades or centuries before...
Sorry, but slavery that occurred in the 1860s and before is less egregious than gender apartheid/capital punishment/slave labor for homosexuals occurring in the 2020s. 100%, end of story.
The story of America is not that people here once held slaves. It's that we abolished slavery, that we fought a war over the abolishment of slavery—and the abolitionists won.
I'm sorry you can't let go of atrocities that happened to your ancestors decades or centuries before you were born.
So you think that because of the US’s past no one from the US living today can pass judgement nor condemn rape, murder, slavery or abuse. I guess you think it better we just sit quietly and condone it. If you think the you are the idiot.
@ Alonzo -- Rape, Murder, Slavery and Abuse is, unfortunately, part of the history on every continent in the world. The history of the human race.
In North America, Native American nations fought against each other, to the point of genocide, because they felt that another nation was encroaching on their lands. An example is the Erie Nation, they inhabited lands along the shores of Lake Erie. You will never meet a member of that...
@ Alonzo -- Rape, Murder, Slavery and Abuse is, unfortunately, part of the history on every continent in the world. The history of the human race.
In North America, Native American nations fought against each other, to the point of genocide, because they felt that another nation was encroaching on their lands. An example is the Erie Nation, they inhabited lands along the shores of Lake Erie. You will never meet a member of that nation, they were killed off by the Seneca Nation.
In Central America, the Aztecs, Incas, Olmec, and the Mayan nations were great and strong. These nations conquered neighbors and often made human sacrifices.
In Europe and Asia, the Nazi Germans, the Romans, Greeks, the Persians, and Genghis Khan conquered, abused, murdered, raped and enslaved millions. Let's not forget the Cambodian civil war, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, who executed over 1 million people (The Killing Fields).
In Africa, the Egyptians enslaved Jews and many others. Today, there is civil war in Sudan, the Congo and M23, and in other countries. The battles for political power are based on ethnic tribal clans. The clan in power makes sure that funding for education, hospitals, clean water, food, etc, goes to their clans or tribes. This creates a higher death rate for the other clans and help to ensure they stay in power.
The human race, at times, can be anything but humane.
The USA enslaved a whole race of people for 250 years, then abused them with less rights and a weaponized justice system against them for another 75 years. And has barely any contrition for it (watch the comments that follow to prove my point). The arab countries we speak of have not even existed for for a fraction of that time. How could you possibly compare their crimes against ours? In the meantime the USA...
The USA enslaved a whole race of people for 250 years, then abused them with less rights and a weaponized justice system against them for another 75 years. And has barely any contrition for it (watch the comments that follow to prove my point). The arab countries we speak of have not even existed for for a fraction of that time. How could you possibly compare their crimes against ours? In the meantime the USA bombed and manipulated the world. No country in history can compare with what the US has done.
Very few are clean and can stand on the moral pedestal. The USA can not when speaking about Arab countries.
(and before the hate come is... I am a veteran, a patriot, and no fan of pan arab culture or current politics, but that doesn't mean I can't be honest about what the USA has historically been..and becoming again)
If you follow the logic of this post and all the replies to it, work it out honestly, you'll conclude that the only approach that can possibly work is: forgiveness. Endless comparisons of past wrongs, in a competition for who should be more aggrieved, never made anything better for anyone...anywhere. We're all guilty and it doesn't matter. the winner is the one who's actually, really forgiven all. Coincidentally when you look at this, it llooks...
If you follow the logic of this post and all the replies to it, work it out honestly, you'll conclude that the only approach that can possibly work is: forgiveness. Endless comparisons of past wrongs, in a competition for who should be more aggrieved, never made anything better for anyone...anywhere. We're all guilty and it doesn't matter. the winner is the one who's actually, really forgiven all. Coincidentally when you look at this, it llooks something like Ben's policy on Middle East countries/carriers/coverage.
I do find it interesting how you are unwavering in your support/promotion of Arab airlines in the Middle East, but don't write much about El Al or Israel and, as far as I've seen, do nothing to police the antisemitism in your comments section.
Is there something about you that we don't know? Your heritage is ostensibly German, after all.
@ MaXXXine -- You must not be reading for very long then? I had an amazing trip to Israel several years back, which I greatly enjoyed, and found to be very enriching. You can read about it here:
https://onemileatatime.com/israel-trip-report/
I write all the time about EL AL, from the upcoming 737 MAX order, to the EL AL frequent flyer program changes some time back, to an EL AL 737 being denied refueling due to...
@ MaXXXine -- You must not be reading for very long then? I had an amazing trip to Israel several years back, which I greatly enjoyed, and found to be very enriching. You can read about it here:
https://onemileatatime.com/israel-trip-report/
I write all the time about EL AL, from the upcoming 737 MAX order, to the EL AL frequent flyer program changes some time back, to an EL AL 737 being denied refueling due to a diversion.
It's incredibly hurtful what you're suggesting there with the last two sentences. My late grandmother, who is probably the most incredible person I've ever met, was Jewish, and was adopted by a German family as a young age. Those in her village helped hide her from the Nazis. We believe the rest of her family died in the Holocaust. Do you feel good about what you're saying?
@Ben - This "MaXXXine" comment seems like a 'false flag' type of comment, meant to make it as though it's a Jewish / Israeli commenter...
As a reader of your blog for 13 years or so, it's obvious this is nonsense.
Again, seems like one of the few actual antisemite trolls that roam around the comment section trying to create a false flag propaganda act.
This was a vile post. Shame.
Sorry and who are you to point your disgusting moral finger on Ben?
Mind your breeding, if you have one!
I've never seen it as Antisemitism on Ben's part. Compared to the other ME airlines, El Al has a relatively limited network and I think, until their recent partnership with Delta, there was only a limited ability to purchase with points. Ben only reviews experiences without telling us to fly any given airline (although he might suggest avoiding some based on his experience). If El Al had as exciting of an on-board experience as the...
I've never seen it as Antisemitism on Ben's part. Compared to the other ME airlines, El Al has a relatively limited network and I think, until their recent partnership with Delta, there was only a limited ability to purchase with points. Ben only reviews experiences without telling us to fly any given airline (although he might suggest avoiding some based on his experience). If El Al had as exciting of an on-board experience as the big 3 ME airlines and Ben didn't review it in the same terms, then sure. But that's not the case. El Al, I think, is a great airline for flying to Israel, but not particularly useful for going anywhere else.
I’m still bewildered about the underlying reason writing this post.
Sometimes people are side blinded, hypocrite or just bigots.
I mean nobody is going to ask you when you board ME airliner if you’re gay or not. No will ask you that question when enter any ME country. Having said that it’s plainly culturally unacceptable for people (heterosexual or homosexual) to show affection in public. That’s just their culture, they don’t have to...
I’m still bewildered about the underlying reason writing this post.
Sometimes people are side blinded, hypocrite or just bigots.
I mean nobody is going to ask you when you board ME airliner if you’re gay or not. No will ask you that question when enter any ME country. Having said that it’s plainly culturally unacceptable for people (heterosexual or homosexual) to show affection in public. That’s just their culture, they don’t have to live by western standards.
In terms of human rights violation, let’s not start. The west has a rich history of violating human rights all over the world. I’m not talking about a colonial period. This is modern history. Western countries are supporting genocide in Gaza as we speak.
100% agree.
There is no "genocide" in Gaza, Omar. I realize that you are probably unable to be objective due to your own heritage, but the carnage in Gaza is 100% the fault of Hamas. If they had surrendered on October 7, the fighting would've been over on October 8.
The reality is that Arabs in Gaza and beyond will not accept any outcome other than the dissolution of Israel, and the establishment of a Palestinian state...
There is no "genocide" in Gaza, Omar. I realize that you are probably unable to be objective due to your own heritage, but the carnage in Gaza is 100% the fault of Hamas. If they had surrendered on October 7, the fighting would've been over on October 8.
The reality is that Arabs in Gaza and beyond will not accept any outcome other than the dissolution of Israel, and the establishment of a Palestinian state "from the river to the sea." Which is of course never going to happen.
Until Arab states (and indeed, Arab individuals) unite to rid the region of Hamas, innocent Gazans will continue to die needlessly.
Also, everything you said about homosexuality in the Middle East is completely inaccurate. There is just no equivalence when it comes to how heterosexuality PDA is frowned upon, and the capital punishment that follows when it's two men.
@Clarence
I think Israel, the nation built by kicking out (which is on a better side), killing, raping and thefting from Palestinians, who have been living there for last 2000 years before 1948, doesn't have a right to talk about any kind of talks surrounding what is correct and what isn't. Maybe if Jews built a nation peacefully with original residents, I could agree with you.
So if they start the war, everything done...
@Clarence
I think Israel, the nation built by kicking out (which is on a better side), killing, raping and thefting from Palestinians, who have been living there for last 2000 years before 1948, doesn't have a right to talk about any kind of talks surrounding what is correct and what isn't. Maybe if Jews built a nation peacefully with original residents, I could agree with you.
So if they start the war, everything done against them is justified? Then why you folks are always mad about the US nuking Japan, because they also started the war against the US? (At least that ended the war, but Israel "correcting the evil" by carring out a genocide against Palestinians didn't and won't)
If you want to be convincing, at least don't make some double standards.
@Mason, please pick up a history book. Nearly everything you said in your post is either inaccurate or an outright lie.
Also, if you can, please spend a day in both Tel Aviv and Ramallah/Gaza City, and report back to me about which society you would prefer to live in for the rest of your life.
@Clarence
You thinking that the US is teaching an accurate history to its people is the funniest thing I've seen in last few days. I haven't said a single untruthful thing on that comment. It's just you're not accepting the truths, thanks to your hypocritical homeland.
You are clearly ignorant
I guess some sensitive would still be mad over this?
I like this post, not because he "looks" like defending Gulf airlines, but rather he's just sharing his opinion based on the truths.
Slow credit card period I assume.
Need clicks and flames on a loaded issue.
But to the point, brainwashed people like this topic, all the sides.
Hundreds of comments to come.
A billion pawns, self automated without needing a puppet master anymore. No wonder they're afraid of AI.
I'll just enjoy the show.
@ Eskimo -- What exactly is a "slow credit card period." I don't follow? Is that the opposite of how when I write about credit cards, people claim that it must be a slow news day?
I don't need clicks and don't want to throw flames. If I wanted that, I'd be writing about all the things that make super salacious headlines, but I don't. I'm writing about this because it's something that readers constantly bring up.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm totally with you, I never doubted the topics you post. Most are insightful, fun ,and sometimes loaded, which is fun too. ;)
A lot of this is just business and I understand that. Your quality still leads the way.
Do what you're doing. I think you balance the topics much better than your peers.
I'm just suggesting the whole credit card industry has kinda slowed a bit,...
Don't get me wrong.
I'm totally with you, I never doubted the topics you post. Most are insightful, fun ,and sometimes loaded, which is fun too. ;)
A lot of this is just business and I understand that. Your quality still leads the way.
Do what you're doing. I think you balance the topics much better than your peers.
I'm just suggesting the whole credit card industry has kinda slowed a bit, in terms of new or exciting products or significant changes to current cards.
i.e. Big fail, the Strata.
Or maybe it's just me running out of cards maxing out Amex5, 1/24, 5/24.
Ben, a few words of wisdom from an old sweat …. try not to take any notice of gross ignorance.
He's "totally with you", Ben. Must be a comfort.
"A billion pawns" ... IF the implication is that you're somehow above that, the first thing you should've done is to not announce yourself. The mere act of commenting here lands you with the rest of us.
Sorry, that part of the comment wasn’t aimed at you specifically, it was a general comment on the blogosphere re. blindness to geopolitics.
My broader point, however, is bucketing Gulf carriers only together as ‘all the same’ I find slightly odd. Does it not give you pause to fly Garuda, for example? Indonesia is actively regressing in terms of LGBT rights…
Not to mention what’s going on with Hindu nationalism in India.
India is also...
Sorry, that part of the comment wasn’t aimed at you specifically, it was a general comment on the blogosphere re. blindness to geopolitics.
My broader point, however, is bucketing Gulf carriers only together as ‘all the same’ I find slightly odd. Does it not give you pause to fly Garuda, for example? Indonesia is actively regressing in terms of LGBT rights…
Not to mention what’s going on with Hindu nationalism in India.
India is also
To be clear, IAG is not ‘owned’ by the Government of Qatar, Qatar is the largest single shareholder but still a minority as they are in many other publicly listed companies which you may or may not be aware of.
@ Tom -- The point is that Qatar is profiting more off of IAG than any other party. So if it's about "voting with our wallets," they have the most to gain, no?
Honestly, as I see it, the world is regressing a lot at the moment socially. It's scary to me, and I'm not happy to see it...
Great article. We live in a world where boycotts are mentioned all the time for political reasons. Those who suggest them usually are ill informed of other relationships and investments they are unaware of. Once you go down that rabbit hole, you see things like Heathrow airport, or hotel investments etc. You have always done a great job.
I respect your perspective, but I will never step foot on a Gulf carrier and I cover them as little as possible on my blog. I do not want to support people and businesses that feel that I should be treated as less than as a member of the LGBTQIA+ community. It's also not just the Gulf carriers. There are Caribbean islands, Russia, and other places (most of Africa) where I will never go and where I steer friends, family, and clients away from.
@ Anthony -- I think that's a totally fair perspective, and I respect you for that!
Out of curiosity, how do you manage visiting some US states?
@Anthony, that is a perfectible reasonable approach for you to take on your own blog.
Ben, your balanced points of view and sound reasoning are the exact selling point of this blog, for me. Plus, raising awareness of great airline products across the globe can only help galvanize the competition to catch up - who knows how long that LH Allegris rollout would be taking if people didn't realize there were far better options? ;)
@ Andy -- Hah, thank you!
Agree - I read this blog to for reviews of products, the vast majority of which I will never personally experience, and thus for a bit of vicarious living. There are other places I can go for politics.
I was with you until the "Gulf countries and social policies" section. I am sure the reality you describe for many of your friends exists in Dubai and other cities/countries. But these are countries/regions with official policies - and if there is a reason for someone to be detained or otherwise punished, those official policies may be used. I also think the treatment of largely Western expats is not comparable to how Dubai may treat...
I was with you until the "Gulf countries and social policies" section. I am sure the reality you describe for many of your friends exists in Dubai and other cities/countries. But these are countries/regions with official policies - and if there is a reason for someone to be detained or otherwise punished, those official policies may be used. I also think the treatment of largely Western expats is not comparable to how Dubai may treat its own citizens when it comes to social rights. Traveling on these airlines, and visiting these places can be fine in a global economy - but I wouldn't sugarcoat the social policies or environments of these countries, whether it is in terms of LBGTQ rights, treatment of non-citizen workers (South Asians, Philippines, etc), treatment of other religions/ethnic minorities, whatever.
Definitely - but I think what Ben is saying is that in that sense, you're back to a "do I want to support this country" perspective instead of a "am I safe here" perspective. One thing he didn't mention is that this is coming from a white man, and I know especially if you look Southeast Asian in parts of the Middle East your treatment can be quite different (more so in places like Qatar).
@ Anthony -- The section on social issues wasn't meant to be comprehensive, because I could write a book about it, based on my own experiences. I agree with you, I take big issue with the way foreign workers in many of these countries are treated, and if anything, that's my biggest issue with countries like the UAE.
This post was intended to address the comments that I get from readers, related to my sexuality...
@ Anthony -- The section on social issues wasn't meant to be comprehensive, because I could write a book about it, based on my own experiences. I agree with you, I take big issue with the way foreign workers in many of these countries are treated, and if anything, that's my biggest issue with countries like the UAE.
This post was intended to address the comments that I get from readers, related to my sexuality and flying these airlines, and the safety of visiting these countries as a foreigner. That's why I'm only scratching the surface here. It was directly intended to be in response to the people who make it sound like there are public hangings in Dubai for gay people, which doesn't reflect reality.
"the safety of visiting these countries as a foreigner" - a MALE foreigner.
As a woman who often travels alone, I would never visit one of these theocratic countries that treats women as second-class citizens (and yes, there are plenty of US states I will not visit).
But, this is a travel blog that reviews a wide range of airlines, and I don't hold it against Ben for reviewing these airlines - I just don't read those posts.
Guess a huge war would start soon in this comment section.
Regardless of which side are you on, it's just kinda stupid to fight over this kind of topic... what do you get by doing so, does that make Gulf nations or maybe the Western World to change themselves?
True, ethics is something we really have to take into account. Which is why I don’t fly middle eastern airlines, like El Al, for example.
To suggest that Israel is less welcoming to gay people than any other middle eastern country is a joke
He said ethics not welcoming to Gay people.
Good point....but all the gay bars in Israel have been closed as far as I know and definitely not as "friendly" as it used to be. Regardless, I won't fly El Al again because their service is horrible.
Naw Maybe Andy is just an Aunty Semite lol
Interesting topic for a post, but can’t help but feel an approach to all ‘Gulf airlines’ is in itself a gross simplification given the geopolitics involved. Certain Gulf states at least sometimes align with the West on key issues whilst others (cough, Qatar) take a neutral position on issues they really shouldn’t and basically help to facilitate e.g. Russia’s attempts to undermine democracy as a resulting . Most bloggers are completely unwilling to take a...
Interesting topic for a post, but can’t help but feel an approach to all ‘Gulf airlines’ is in itself a gross simplification given the geopolitics involved. Certain Gulf states at least sometimes align with the West on key issues whilst others (cough, Qatar) take a neutral position on issues they really shouldn’t and basically help to facilitate e.g. Russia’s attempts to undermine democracy as a resulting . Most bloggers are completely unwilling to take a stand on QR though because, you know, Qsuites.
@ Tom -- The post is 1,600+ words, and you're right, it only scratches the surface, and it does generalize things. Respectfully, I think your response misses the point I'm trying to make with the whole post, though. You're saying bloggers are unwilling to take a stance on Qatar because of Qsuites.
When you say stance, what exactly do you mean? Should I write out all of my political opinions in a post, as if...
@ Tom -- The post is 1,600+ words, and you're right, it only scratches the surface, and it does generalize things. Respectfully, I think your response misses the point I'm trying to make with the whole post, though. You're saying bloggers are unwilling to take a stance on Qatar because of Qsuites.
When you say stance, what exactly do you mean? Should I write out all of my political opinions in a post, as if I'm running for elected office? Or is this about financially supporting the government of Qatar? If it's about the latter, then do you think it's ethical to fly with IAG carriers, which are also owned by the government of Qatar?
The IAG ownership thing is a red herring. False equivalencies. Look you like the bling and that’s fine. It’s a commercial site and you love luxe travel. Fine. Plus we should not be looking for a philosophical world affairs debate on this site with you. That is neither the objective of the site nor your area of expertise. Period. Let’s move on
Its a lie when someone says if Hamas does this or that and war will end.
Palestinians have been getting killed long before Hamas's existence. Sabra and Shatila are a perfect example of that.