Well, this is a shame. Several months ago, Delta Air Lines introduced its only daytime eastbound transatlantic flight. People either love or hate these kinds of flights, and personally I loved to see the option. Unfortunately this frequency isn’t lasting long, as it’s already being discontinued.
In this post:
Delta’s daytime eastbound transatlantic flight cut
For some background, since March 31, 2024, Delta has been operating a third daily flight between New York (JFK) and Paris (CDG). This frequency operates with the following schedule:
DL266 New York to Paris departing 8:30AM arriving 10:00PM
DL267 Paris to New York departing 9:30AM arriving 11:50AM
The 3,635 mile flight is blocked at 7hr30min eastbound and 8hr20min westbound. Delta uses a Boeing 767-400 for the route, featuring 238 seats. This includes 34 business class seats, 20 premium economy seats, 28 extra legroom economy seats, and 156 economy class seats.
What makes this service most interesting is that it’s a daytime transatlantic flight in the eastbound direction. While a few airlines operate these kinds of flights, they make up a tiny percentage of overall service.
It was a pretty big milestone for Delta, as it’s the first time that the Atlanta-based carrier has ever operated a flight like this. Delta’s joint venture partners Air France and Virgin Atlantic have operated daytime flights from New York to Paris and London (respectively), but this is the first such flight on Delta metal. Furthermore, American and United have operated several eastbound transatlantic daytime flights, so Delta was the last of the “big three” carriers to operate such service.
Well, unfortunately the clock is ticking on this unique flight. As noted by @IshrionA, Delta is cutting this service as of October 25, 2024. The intent all along was that the flight was seasonal, and that it would resume next summer. However, Delta has now retimed this frequency for the summer of 2025, so it will have a more traditional schedule, as follows:
DL266 New York to Paris departing 8:30PM arriving 10:00AM
DL267 Paris to New York departing 9:30AM arriving 12:15PM
Interestingly the eastbound flight is being retimed by exactly 12 hours, while the westbound flight is maintaining the same schedule, so presumably there will be a plane swap between frequencies in Paris.
I love these kinds of daytime flights
People tend to have strong feelings about daytime eastbound transatlantic flights. I understand why some people don’t like them, which is that they “waste” a day, when you could instead fly overnight. However, personally I’m a huge fan of these flights:
- They’re so much better for jetlag and exhaustion, since you can get a proper night of sleep in a real bed
- You know your room will be ready when you arrive at the hotel, unlike when you land at 7AM, and then potentially have eight hours before check-in time
- If you’re able to get work done remotely online, there’s much less opportunity cost to the “wasted” day you spend flying, since you can stay productive above the clouds
So I’m a huge fan of these flights, though unfortunately don’t get to take them often. You mostly see these flights from Boston and New York, so they’re not very useful if you’re like me, and live in Miami. Furthermore, they’re not useful if you’re looking to connect beyond the European gateway (Paris, in this case), since there aren’t many flights departing after these arrivals.
Bottom line
In the spring of 2024, Delta launched a daytime eastbound transatlantic flight, whereby the airline has been flying a Boeing 767-400 daily from New York to Paris, complementing the carrier’s two other daily flights (plus all the flights of joint venture partner Air France).
Unfortunately this didn’t last long — the route is being cut as of late October 2024, and isn’t expected to return in 2025. Instead, Delta will retime this flight as of next summer, to have a more traditional schedule.
What do you make of Delta cutting its daytime flight to Paris?
I have tried JFK/LHR daytime flights several times. I have found the jet lag to be worse than an overnight flight. Biggest problem for me is that I arrive at a hotel in London at (say 11 pm) when it is 6 PM in NY, I am simply not tired and end up awake until 3 or 4 am….and then I am in real trouble for the next few days.
For me, the best...
I have tried JFK/LHR daytime flights several times. I have found the jet lag to be worse than an overnight flight. Biggest problem for me is that I arrive at a hotel in London at (say 11 pm) when it is 6 PM in NY, I am simply not tired and end up awake until 3 or 4 am….and then I am in real trouble for the next few days.
For me, the best transatlantic flights (from NY) leave as late as possible (10 pm or later). It is easy to sleep on the plane because it is roughly my normal sleep time in NY. I arrive in my destination in Europe late morning/early afternoon (exact timing depends on where I am going and if connection is needed). I take a walk, do a bit of work, drink coffee, might take a one hour nap, have a relatively early dinner and then off to bed….the next morning, I am roughly on European time.
But as others note, this is highly dependent on the individual.
Bummer that this is gone - but re: jetlag (as a Miami resident) the best transcon flight IMO is the Turkish 1:45 - arriving MIA at 7am has to be the best one out there - pretty ideal timing for a 12 hour ride
The JFK-CDG daytime in biz class is quite civilized and will be missed.
A quick 35-minute car service from my home in Larchmont to JFK. A brief stop in the AF lounge before boarding, and then drinks, food, and movies across the pond.
Upon arrival head straight to the hotel for some wine and a light meal and off to a sound sleep. Up and ready to go in the morning! Easy Peasy.
...The JFK-CDG daytime in biz class is quite civilized and will be missed.
A quick 35-minute car service from my home in Larchmont to JFK. A brief stop in the AF lounge before boarding, and then drinks, food, and movies across the pond.
Upon arrival head straight to the hotel for some wine and a light meal and off to a sound sleep. Up and ready to go in the morning! Easy Peasy.
When returning stateside, book the latest departure possible, plan for a few hours in the CDG lounge, and then unapologetically enjoy your flight back!
The only way to comfortably survive an eastbound overnight flight is to have your hotel room booked for the night before arrival, which allows you to head straight there for a three hour nap, spend a boozy afternoon out and about, and then sleep like a rock that night.
Either way, those who our concerned about 'wasting' a day on a daytime flight are either too Type-A or have a boss who watches them too closely ;)
Nice story.
Next time try write your story realistically accurate. It makes your fluff more believable.
You can't use AF lounge flying Delta at JFK.
Talk about privilege. I travel to airports in automobiles. To travel Larchmont to JFK reliably to make a flight you must be using a point to point helicopter or you just write stories (novels).
According to Google Maps - From my house to JFK right now, during RUSH HOUR, is 52 minutes. 35 minutes at 5:30 AM is reliably doable.
(I was referring to the soon-to-be-gone AF daytime flight, but you're right that I was mixed up about going to the AF lounge at JFK. Doesn't open until 10 AM... Fair enough. That said, it's easy to get mixed up these days between the AF, Centurion, Delta, and...
According to Google Maps - From my house to JFK right now, during RUSH HOUR, is 52 minutes. 35 minutes at 5:30 AM is reliably doable.
(I was referring to the soon-to-be-gone AF daytime flight, but you're right that I was mixed up about going to the AF lounge at JFK. Doesn't open until 10 AM... Fair enough. That said, it's easy to get mixed up these days between the AF, Centurion, Delta, and Priority Pass lounges all over the place.)
Incidentally, it looks like the AF JFK-CDG flight arrived at 9:13 PM this evening. Plenty of time for a few glasses of wine and a bar steak at the hotel before a good night's sleep.
to summarize,
Delta is retiming its daytime JFK-CDG flight to a standard overnight eastbound and daytime return, eliminating the only daytime legacy carrier flight from the NE US to CONTINENTAL Europe.
daytime flights from the NE to continental Europe have been tried before and have never been sustainable but AF/DL wanted to try it again as part of its plan to create an hourly shuttle from NYC to Paris within the hours that...
to summarize,
Delta is retiming its daytime JFK-CDG flight to a standard overnight eastbound and daytime return, eliminating the only daytime legacy carrier flight from the NE US to CONTINENTAL Europe.
daytime flights from the NE to continental Europe have been tried before and have never been sustainable but AF/DL wanted to try it again as part of its plan to create an hourly shuttle from NYC to Paris within the hours that flight operations and markets permit.
All remaining daytime eastbound TATL flights are to London which is not only a shorter flight but crosses one fewer time zone than to continental Europe
Paris a larger market than any Star or oneworld continental Europe hub.
and size and connectivity to Europe raises the question of fleet. DL is retiring the next batch of 767-300ERs with some already have been retired. The replacements will be A330-900s which cost about 20% less to operate on a per seat basis. DL will upgauge to Europe just as it has done in domestic markets -by replacing 767-300ER flights with 764s and 332s and replace flights on those two fleets with 333s or 339s or larger.
As more than 25 A350s join the fleet with DL's standard international configuration just between 2024-2025, 339s will increasingly shift to TATL flights and be replaced on some TPAC flights by 350s. DL has the most new widebody capacity coming of the big 3.
AA is content to grow at a slow rate but still cannot get the 787s from Boeing it wants.
UA had an aggressive international growth plan but also can't get the 787s it wanted; it was supposed to receive as many 787s as DL was supposed to receive as many 339s and 350s as DL was going to receive but will receive a fraction of those.
just as with delays on the MAX, UA is seeking alternatives. It tried to find new A321s but came up with just 3 dozen new A321s via leasing companies and not from Airbus.
UA has had the A350 on order but has failed to convert them to orders and can't receive enough new A350s for at least 5 years so is turning to the used aircraft market.
Rumors continue to say that UA will acquire used early generation 787-8s, the smallest and least economical member of the 787 family. UA is also working on a plan to acquire used 777-300ERs, all of which will be older than UA's own 777-300ERs.
UA will spend hundreds of millions of dollars to reconfigure these aircraft which will be less economical than DL's new build Airbus aircraft and also less economical than the average of UA's own widebodies.
In business, you only have to be smarter than your competition and UA is once again proving that growth is more important than profits; it is acquiring long-life assets that will lock in its cost disadvantage not just to DL - which is growing in multiple global regions faster than UA - but also against most of UA's global competitors including Asian airlines.
The next few years will be very interesting to watch. UA has tried to close the gap with DL in profits and has held that out as a goal. With its commitment to Boeing which has been unable to deliver, UA is acquiring whatever aircraft it can and will increase its costs. UA will not grow domestically as fast as it said it would while will extend its position as the least fuel efficient global carrier with the oldest widebody fleet.
because for-profit companies can only sustain strategies that their profits will support, there will be a rearrangement of the order in international markets with UA's lead falling.
Thats not a summary - that’s the length of an article. Also - still waiting for your stock predictions Mr. Dunn! Prove your chops!
The first part is very much a summary. The second part is very much my commentary and outlook based on information that is available.
Just as I have said in other articles a single route for either Delta or united isn’t going to move the needle at all.
What will matter is the availability of new aircraft and the profits that can be generated from them. as hard as it is for some...
The first part is very much a summary. The second part is very much my commentary and outlook based on information that is available.
Just as I have said in other articles a single route for either Delta or united isn’t going to move the needle at all.
What will matter is the availability of new aircraft and the profits that can be generated from them. as hard as it is for some to admit, Delta has a huge advantage in being able to receive Airbus widebodies on time while United is scrambling for aircraft because it can’t receive its Boeing aircraft that has an order. And when you factor in that Delta A350s are far more capable and then even the 787s, there will be changes in the US international market taking place in the next few years
So, no stock price picks? I’ll make it easy - will DAL return over 10% by this time next year?
feel free to read an investment site if you want investment picks
The flight times are not good. You arrive at 10pm. That means you waste an extra night in the hotel for no reason. Also, you often say how productive you are on the flight but I find that the wifi does not work as well as it should.
I dont think I see this in the comments already.. Delta also operates one GRU-ATL segment as a daytime 10AM departure flight and the less than daily ATL-GIG-ATL operates as a northbound daytime return.
North/South with minimal time zone changes doesn't really matter for jetlag.
for the peak holidays in US winter, DL is operating double daily overnight southbound from ATL to GRU, EZE and SCL and one of the two flights is northbound is a daytime while the other is overnight.
There aren't many daytime flights from the US to S. America but ATL is undoubtedly so large as a hub that there are people that are willing to take daytime flights even though it still requires leaving for...
for the peak holidays in US winter, DL is operating double daily overnight southbound from ATL to GRU, EZE and SCL and one of the two flights is northbound is a daytime while the other is overnight.
There aren't many daytime flights from the US to S. America but ATL is undoubtedly so large as a hub that there are people that are willing to take daytime flights even though it still requires leaving for the airport by 6 or 7 am in cultures that are more evening focused.
GRU and SCL are JV partner hubs and connections do work on both ends. Part of the problem w/ a daytime flight to continental Europe is that there are no connections possible at CDG and limited connections in the NE.
and northbound daytime flights use less airplane time than the typical double redeye schedule from the US to S. America while a typical US to Europe schedule requires just one aircraft but a daytime eastbound TATL flight requires more than one aircraft for a roundtrip.
The flight might not have been unprofitable but DL can generate more profit by having an all overnight eastbound/daytime westbound TATL schedule.
There is little business demand for those flight as it is indeed a lost day in most cases. Even remote workers have to be on video calls during the day and this flight makes that impractical for many people.
Any volunteers for a welfare check on @Dim Sum? She hasn't personally responded to the past 4 or 5 posts*, as is her wont. This is unprecedented because, you know...Detla
“and it is also worth noting that between AF/DL/KL, DL has far more flights from the NE to their continental European hubs which is how they dominate the connecting market. “
-False. AF>DL
AF operates 8.5 daily to the NE: 5.5 daily to JFK, and 2x daily to BOS, and 1 daily to EWR.
DL operates 8 daily to CDG and AMS: 3x JFK-CDG, 2x JFK-AMS, 1x BOS-CDG, 2x BOS-AMS.
AF...
“and it is also worth noting that between AF/DL/KL, DL has far more flights from the NE to their continental European hubs which is how they dominate the connecting market. “
-False. AF>DL
AF operates 8.5 daily to the NE: 5.5 daily to JFK, and 2x daily to BOS, and 1 daily to EWR.
DL operates 8 daily to CDG and AMS: 3x JFK-CDG, 2x JFK-AMS, 1x BOS-CDG, 2x BOS-AMS.
AF unlike DL runs higher gauge aircraft to/from JFK and BOS with 777-300ER and A350-900 in addition to serving IAD twice daily.
“LH/UA actually have a pretty small number of flights even combining EWR/JFK compared to EWR/JFK to AMS/CDG.”
-False. Transatlantic JV includes LH Group airlines Swiss, Brussels Airlines, and Austrian. Even if we exclude Discover. The UA/LH Group combines for 16 daily to NYC vs AF-KL/DL 15 daily. LH also flies more capacity with both the A380 and 747.
UA from EWR 6x daily: BRUx2, FRA, MUC, ZRH, and GVA
LH from JFK 3x daily: JFKx2, EWR
LX from ZRH 3x daily: JFKx2, EWR
LX from GVA 1x daily: JFK
OS from VIE 2x daily: JFK and EWR
SN from BRU 1x daily: JFK
DL from JFK 5x daily: JFKx3, AMSx2
AF from CDG 6.5x daily: JFKx5.5, EWRx1, BOSx2
KL from AMS 3.5x daily: JFKx3, BOSx0.5
“It isn't a surprise that UA feels like it has to fly so many nonstops to non-hub European cities on its own metal given how disadvantaged Star is compared to oneworld and Skyteam.”
-False. BA alone flies more ASMs to the US than either AF-KLM combined or the entire LH Group. Even if constrain the comparison to continental Europe, AF/KLM flies less ASMs to the US than the LH Group.
May 2024
LH 481K
LX 138K
OS 46K
SN 17K
LH Group 682K
AF 391K
KL 208K
AF-KLM 599K
The difference is even greater when we consider that UA has surpassed DL as the largest carrier to Europe and Star TATL JV also includes Air Canada which serves a number of destinations that neither DL nor UA flies. The SkyTeam JV is easily the weakest out of the 3 JVs.
“and the 764 is the smallest widebody in the combined AF/DL fleet.”
-False. Per MaxPower who’s a bit more factual, ‘Yeah… it isn’t. That would be the 763 for delta or the AF A332. Both fewer seats than the 764.’
No wonder why Tim’s SA ratings are so poor and other commenters constantly reject his claims. He’s forever factually incorrect and uses meaningless conjecture in the absence of data to back his claims.
and, as usual, you are more interested in denigrating me because you can't stand to admit that I have the facts that you and others can't seem to bring to the table.
first, I know full well that the 763 is smaller than the 764 but DL knows that the 763 Delta One seat is not the same as or competitive with what is on the 764 or other aircraft types.
second, I specifically talked...
and, as usual, you are more interested in denigrating me because you can't stand to admit that I have the facts that you and others can't seem to bring to the table.
first, I know full well that the 763 is smaller than the 764 but DL knows that the 763 Delta One seat is not the same as or competitive with what is on the 764 or other aircraft types.
second, I specifically talked about the connecting market to Europe for cities that do not have nonstop service. And AF/DL/KL most certainly DO carry more connecting traffic from the US and the Northeast and NYC to EUROPE than either Star or oneworld. Just because you can't read what is being debated and, like Max, reply to something entirely different, doesn't make you right.
It just makes you argumentative and still wrong.
Very well written post, Community Note. Appreciate the focus on data.
first,
no it is the usual inaccurate and cherrypicked data in order to try to prove me wrong.
Here is the statement I made
"It is more interesting to note the difference in how the different alliances approach their service from NYC to Europe in addition to daylight eastbound flights."
and the answer from the anonymous person that thinks he speaks for a bunch of people is wrong because:
1. LHR...
first,
no it is the usual inaccurate and cherrypicked data in order to try to prove me wrong.
Here is the statement I made
"It is more interesting to note the difference in how the different alliances approach their service from NYC to Europe in addition to daylight eastbound flights."
and the answer from the anonymous person that thinks he speaks for a bunch of people is wrong because:
1. LHR is a DL joint venture partner hub and yet "community" excluded it. It is precisely because LHR is predominantly local that the statements that DL connects more traffic to its JV partner hubs is inaccurate. The same thing is true in Asia where DL has fewer flights on its own metal to ICN than it does to HND and yet ICN is the JV hub. TPE and PVG are not JV partner hubs.
2. there are also claims about daylight flights. no other airlines operate daytime flights to continental Europe. Every alliance or major carrier operates daytime flights to LHR but UA does not carry more passengers on their daytime flights than VS which operates daytime flights to LHR for the DL/AF/KL/VS JV.
3. SN has limited flights to continental Europe and OS only slightly more that logically connect - because VIE is so far east. both carriers add considerable depth to their JVs in carrying traffic beyond Europe but they contribute little to Europe.
My second statement was and is true that the AF/DL/KL JV does a better job than any other alliance in connecting traffic over AMS and CDG to points in Europe that do not have nonstop service to the US.
UA operates more nonstop flights from EWR to Europe via narrowbodies to try to compensate for the LH Group's weakness in connecting traffic to Europe.
reading and responding to what is written is what makes someone's use of data accurate and not flinging around data just to fling data.
So much excuses for the 763.
Tim now you're insulting Delta, how dare you.
Delta is flying 763 probably a dozen routes to Europe.
@Sarthak I hear you. It’s clear Tim struggles in arguments once data is introduced since that’s one of his many weaknesses.
In fact, I used passenger numbers instead of ASMs to see he would notice it and call it out. Someone who has access to the data easily would, but it’s clear Tim doesn’t so he resorts to meaningless and longwinded conjecture riddled with incorrect facts to overcompensate.
“LHR is a DL joint...
@Sarthak I hear you. It’s clear Tim struggles in arguments once data is introduced since that’s one of his many weaknesses.
In fact, I used passenger numbers instead of ASMs to see he would notice it and call it out. Someone who has access to the data easily would, but it’s clear Tim doesn’t so he resorts to meaningless and longwinded conjecture riddled with incorrect facts to overcompensate.
“LHR is a DL joint venture partner hub and yet "community" excluded it.”
-False. Tim intentionally excluded LHR to preserve his parameters of continental Europe to make the SkyTeam JV look artificially larger than the AA/IAG/AY JV. To quote Tim, ‘Canada is not in NYC any more than the UK is in continental Europe.’ So including other parts of Europe:
May 24 AMS to the US
BA 3.569M
EI 1.099M
IB 1.071M
AY 238K
Total 5.977M
AF 2.040M
VS 1.951M
KL 1.099M
Total 5.090M
The fact that KLM has as many ASMs to the US as Aer Lingus and that VS provides no European connectivity unlike BA shows how disadvantaged the SkyTeam JV is in both continental Europe and Europe overall.
VS’ business model of not providing short haul feed to its flights has cost the airline dearly. SQ noticed this issue and exited out quickly even at a loss. Delta rather than trying to avoid a repeat of SQ, instead doubles down and continues to dump billions of dollars in equity investments including to VS, the only JV airline that hasn’t turned a profit in nearly a decade. In fact, VS was more financially successful under SQ than it was ever under DL. JetBlue, Spirit, and Frontier despite their current struggles still provide more value to shareholders than VS ever has.
It’s time for Tim to move on from the retirement home and go straight to the funeral home.
once again, you can't read or choose not to so you can argue a point that is NOT what I said.
we get how insecure you are, that you are so ashamed of using your real name, but it is not a surprise that you want to be anonymous when you repeatedly fail to respond to what is said, not what you want to have been said so you can try to prove me wrong.
Walk away.
you make your real desire perfectly clear here
"It’s time for Tim to move on from the retirement home and go straight to the funeral home."
You can't stand for anyone to speak the truth that you don't want to hear or read and would rather wish we dead instead of accurately debating me.
It is precisely because you get SO wound up by what I say that I am COMMITTED to keeping at...
you make your real desire perfectly clear here
"It’s time for Tim to move on from the retirement home and go straight to the funeral home."
You can't stand for anyone to speak the truth that you don't want to hear or read and would rather wish we dead instead of accurately debating me.
It is precisely because you get SO wound up by what I say that I am COMMITTED to keeping at it.
AF/DL/KL/VS have the most flights from NYC to their hubs.
AF/DL/KL/VS carry the most traffic from the Northeast US to cities in Europe that do not have nonstop service in the US.
Both of those statements are pretty clear as to what they mean.
It is only because you know I am right that you spend hour after hour pulling data that does not answer my questions.
I don't wish you ill but I will point out over and over again not only what a coward you are but also that you are flat out wrong - because I am very much still alive.
These daytime flights, IMHO, are counterintuitive. For me personally, I like these flights *if* I'm flying economy. Because flying a redeye to Europe in economy is brutal and leaves me messed up the next day anyway. So either way, a day is wasted, and I'd rather fly in the daytime, and sleep in a hotel and be rested by the next day.
OTOH, if I'm flying business class with a lie-flat seat, I'd rather do...
These daytime flights, IMHO, are counterintuitive. For me personally, I like these flights *if* I'm flying economy. Because flying a redeye to Europe in economy is brutal and leaves me messed up the next day anyway. So either way, a day is wasted, and I'd rather fly in the daytime, and sleep in a hotel and be rested by the next day.
OTOH, if I'm flying business class with a lie-flat seat, I'd rather do the redeye, because I can actually get off the plane fairly refreshed and be functional for the day.
If there are other people like me, that means this flight makes the most sense for the people paying the least (i.e. economy pax), and doesn't really make sense for the most profitable passengers. If that's the case, I can see why these daytime flights are hard to sustain...
This is why I've been flying through Mexico City and Miami when going to Europe over the past 2 years. Mexico City is great. Cheap business-class airfares on Air France, a late night flight that gives you a ridiculous amount of time in business-class to maximize value for money but also sleep time, and then an arrival time in Paris that's past the morning rush and late enough that your hotel room should be ready....
This is why I've been flying through Mexico City and Miami when going to Europe over the past 2 years. Mexico City is great. Cheap business-class airfares on Air France, a late night flight that gives you a ridiculous amount of time in business-class to maximize value for money but also sleep time, and then an arrival time in Paris that's past the morning rush and late enough that your hotel room should be ready. Miami is the next best option because it's about 1 full hour longer than Chicago or Detroit to Paris but there are two daily late night flights. So, you get a little more time and you also arrive a little later. But, as far as I'm concerned, on my own dollar, Mexico City is the best routing. I've scored $2,000 business-class airfares. It's also worth looking at Tijuana, Mazatlan and Cancun and then connecting in Mexico City on Air France.
100%. The timing of the Mexico City flights is great
This tells me that business travel between New York and Paris is WAY down. It's been a rough few months for Paris.
And while this was great if you were New York City-based, it was difficult for anyone needing to connect at JFK.
You could have an overnight layover in NYC, which is probably the only US city worth having an overnight layover in.
At the awful TWA Hotel? 8-something in the morning international flight means I would need to check-in by 5:30-6 a.m. No way would I stay in Manhattan.
God. I'd hate to get up at 3am only to sit on a plane for 8 hours. Then again, I wouldn't have to since I don't live in New York.
Living in New York makes you cultured. Everybody should live in New York for at least 2-3 years in early adulthood.
And then they should then leave before it makes them hard.
This doesn't much surprise me. For this to work, you need to depart JFK before any connecting flights can arrive and arrive at CDG too late for connections. So, the only audience are those who live or are staying in the NYC area and those ending in the Paris area. Any advantage is lost otherwise (e.g., take a red eye into JFK or overnight at CDG).
You can do a similar scheduling LAX/SFO to...
This doesn't much surprise me. For this to work, you need to depart JFK before any connecting flights can arrive and arrive at CDG too late for connections. So, the only audience are those who live or are staying in the NYC area and those ending in the Paris area. Any advantage is lost otherwise (e.g., take a red eye into JFK or overnight at CDG).
You can do a similar scheduling LAX/SFO to SYD/MEL/BNE. Instead of leaving at 11pm and arriving at 9am day+2, you can depart 11am and arrive a 9pm day+1. But, again you are limited to those living/visiting near the departure airport (or a short connecting flight away) and those visiting/living near the arrival airport.
QF did once have that early departure LAX-SYD, maybe a decade+ ago. Though I was also commuting to Oz quite a lot, I never took that flight...and I think the lack of east coast/midwest connectivity at LAX hurt the loads. I don't recall the eastbound schedule...
The advantage of that timing for TPAC is the West Coast can absorb the 3 hour time difference and still get in a bank of early morning East Coast departures. The converse is not possible when you go TATL, as it's not possible for travelers to take a daytime flight over from the West to East Coast.
When I was working I took the UA EWr-LHR flight about once a month. Got in around 9PM, went to the hotel, had a few drinks and got a decent night's sleep. If I was working in London I just got up in time to take the train in. If not, then I went a day early and took a flight to whichever city I needed sometime the next day.
After a while I recognized other pax and crew.
I would have greatly missed that flight schedule had it ended.
I don't see the big deal with the re-timing and elimination of the daytime service. If it wasn't the most profitable way to utilize the aircraft, that's just good business to end the daytime service.
As for me, I'm of two minds about daytime services. My experience with daytime services is only to LHR, so maybe that's a bit different as it's so convenient. Yes, I agree that it helped me with jet lag, as...
I don't see the big deal with the re-timing and elimination of the daytime service. If it wasn't the most profitable way to utilize the aircraft, that's just good business to end the daytime service.
As for me, I'm of two minds about daytime services. My experience with daytime services is only to LHR, so maybe that's a bit different as it's so convenient. Yes, I agree that it helped me with jet lag, as I hate the sluggish feeling of an early AM arrival even with a flat bed. On the other hand, I don't like wasting a day in the air, to the ;point that I almost have felt guilty for the use of time....but that's just for me, and as it relates to business travel. I just got tired of traveling to LON all the time, so would take the first PM flight out of JFK and last flight for the return, and not even spend the night. Team members can decide what works best for them, and I make no judgement.
Now that I think about it...we could have this same discussion about transcon services...not much shorter than NE USA to Europe, or at least LHR. When it comes to transcon, I'll never fly a red-eye!
you can't consider profits in ANY discussion about airline schedules.
Is this your first day on this site. :-)
Hah!
I am sad that AA is ending the ORD-LHR daytime flight that I like. Are these flights not as profitable in general for some reason?
They depend almost entirely on O&D passengers as they're not really timed for connection flows (on either end). Big cities like Chicago, NYC, etc. can often justify one or two such flights based solely on their large O&D markets, but even then (as you can see with this flight being cut), it's still much weaker than a flight that can fill with connecting pax.
It is more interesting to note the difference in how the different alliances approach their service from NYC to Europe in addition to daylight eastbound flights.
Star has none because they work even less to Central Europe where LH is strong because it is even further east and are smaller markets than to LHR and CDG.
oneworld has the corner on daytime flights because they work to LHR - both because of the smaller...
It is more interesting to note the difference in how the different alliances approach their service from NYC to Europe in addition to daylight eastbound flights.
Star has none because they work even less to Central Europe where LH is strong because it is even further east and are smaller markets than to LHR and CDG.
oneworld has the corner on daytime flights because they work to LHR - both because of the smaller time zone difference compared to continental Europe and the shorter flight time.
and it is also worth noting that between AF/DL/KL, DL has far more flights from the NE to their continental European hubs which is how they dominate the connecting market. LH/UA actually have a pretty small number of flights even combining EWR/JFK compared to EWR/JFK to AMS/CDG.
AMS/CDG are built for connections and AF/DL/KL takes advantage of that even more than Star.
daytime flights via LHR and the sheer amount of capacity give oneworld an advantage.
It isn't a surprise that UA feels like it has to fly so many nonstops to non-hub European cities on its own metal given how disadvantaged Star is compared to oneworld and Skyteam.
Unclear what the disadvantage is, but the TATL strategies are different across all 3 alliances. They all have different strengths and weaknesses. You also seem to omit that Star Alliance also provides TATL connections via YYZ, YUL, BRU, ZRH, VIE as well.
Canada is not in NYC any more than the UK is in continental Europe.
It’s almost like you know nothing about the Canadian airports, tim…
whether I know anything about Canadian airports has nothing to do with the fact that no place in Canada is in NYC which is what I referenced in my original post.
Quit arguing just so that you can post something, mini
Yeah
Because Canadian airports without customs are regularly used by US consumers
Cmon tim
You don’t have to be this dense
you really are dense, aren't you?
whether Canadian airports have pre-clearance or not is not the issue.
The discussion I teed up is about NYC.
Canada is not in NYC any more than LAX or ORD is.
Read before typing, Max. You make a fool of yourself more than anyone on aviation social media.
You’re definitely amusing
But idiocy just stops being funny…
Yes DL and partners have more flights to hubs in Europe because their strategies are to make people connect or even double-connect, depending on where they begin the journey.
Same strategy as DL uses in TPAC, forcing more people to connect or double-connect, using ICN.
UA prefers more nonstop or one-stop itineries, with more flights from coastal hubs to interior cities. Even the European destination count served from SFO is quite impressive.
hey Mark,
why don't you tell us the percentage of widebody flights that AA, DL and UA each operate from their US hubs to their European JV partner hubs.
and then do the same in Asia.
You might find if you actually did the math rather than repeat internet folklore that DL is below average for the big 3 to both Europe and Asia.
But do tell us those stats, Mark.
none...
hey Mark,
why don't you tell us the percentage of widebody flights that AA, DL and UA each operate from their US hubs to their European JV partner hubs.
and then do the same in Asia.
You might find if you actually did the math rather than repeat internet folklore that DL is below average for the big 3 to both Europe and Asia.
But do tell us those stats, Mark.
none of which changes that AF/DL/KL have the strongest schedule from NYC to CDG/AMS certainly compared to UA to Star hubs and AA to its hubs.
Tim, we both made the same point. lol
Lots of widebodies across both oceans. DL is more likely to take you to a partner hub, UA more likely to take you to your final destination.
With the fleet decisions made by each carrier, the trends will continue.
To each their own.
no, we didn't make the same point.
DL is NOT any more likely to take you to a partner hub than AA or UA.
I asked you to do the math.
Now show it and dispense with the internet lore that THINKS that DL serves its JV partner hubs more than other carriers do.
UA is bigger than DL across the Atlantic, yet DL has many more flights to AMS and CDG than UA does to its partner hubs.
DL has *17* flights to AMS and *10* flights to CDG while UA’s max number of flights to a partner hub is FRA with only 9 flights. There are your numbers detailing DL’s reliance on partner hubs, forcing more of their passengers to connect.
Not a knock on...
UA is bigger than DL across the Atlantic, yet DL has many more flights to AMS and CDG than UA does to its partner hubs.
DL has *17* flights to AMS and *10* flights to CDG while UA’s max number of flights to a partner hub is FRA with only 9 flights. There are your numbers detailing DL’s reliance on partner hubs, forcing more of their passengers to connect.
Not a knock on DL. Just something they need to do since most of their hubs don’t have the international O&D that UA’s hubs have.
You yourself talk about the new ICN flights DL will eventually launch, further supporting the notion of reliance on partner hubs and multiple connections for their passengers.
Spin spin spin spin
@Tim Dunn, considered becoming a political staffer? You would do an excellent job spinning the truth.
Connections are lower yielding than nonstops.
@A220HubandSpoke
The fact that Delta doesn't want him with all of his shilling for them tells you what you need to know lol
Julia,
thank you for admitting that you are paid by one of DL's competitors to post.
and A220, that is repeatedly told on a.net that he is wrong is just as wrong regardless of where he posts.
The post was about NYC. No Canadian city is in NYC any more than Chicago or Los Angeles is.
YOU are the ones that want to deflect in order to try to find fault w/ what I write and discredit me because you can't read and reply to what I wrote.
The daylight service between JFK and CDG has been tried several times in the (distant) past, first with TWA in the 1980s and then AF in the 1990s. It does not work.
My first flight was JFK to Paris (Probably ORLY) in 1966. It was a Pan Am morning flight on a 707. We were scheduled for 10 AM and with a slight delay had to divert to LeBourget due to arriving past the cut off time.
I fully agree with you, Ben. Daytime flights are best to manage jetlag. When you arrive, you are tired and go to bed for a good night sleep ... and you are over it.
Meanwhile, with the overnight flights, it takes me 5 to 7 days to adjust.
This move is anti-Fŕench, according to the criteria of one congressman.
Daytime flights from the US to Europe or t he UK are excellent. Economy class on these are superior to business class on a red eye in terms of reducing jet lag.
Couldn’t disagree more that this is a good way to fly to Europe. You basically waste a full day. Not everyone works on a computer with just WiFi since I spend most of my work day in video calls and I cannot do those while on a plane. You won’t sleep on the plane and will land hungry in Europe and it is already too late to have a proper dinner by the time you...
Couldn’t disagree more that this is a good way to fly to Europe. You basically waste a full day. Not everyone works on a computer with just WiFi since I spend most of my work day in video calls and I cannot do those while on a plane. You won’t sleep on the plane and will land hungry in Europe and it is already too late to have a proper dinner by the time you get to your hotel. I rather use the plane time to sleep and arrive ready to hit the road early morning in Europe.
Well, that's you sh*tty life. Some of us liked that route and could make it work for our lifestyles.
I get what you’re saying about jetlag, Ben, but I just feel like wasting a day flying TATL during the day
That said
I do keep meaning to fly the ord-lhr daytime flight just for fun
Just kind of hate not getting into London proper (after customs, the tube/uber, etc) until 1130p, etc
I love staying at a LHR hotel and can then make other arrangements the next morning.
Obviously depends where you are but for destination traffic into Europe I’m a fan of KLM’s 9pm flight from SLC to AMS. Gets in at 3pm. Sleep a little on the plane (I never sleep longer than a few hours on a plane anyways) - up for a few hours before a full night in a real bed.
That's perfect. For me, it's not even about sleep as much as being able to check in to a hotel on arrival. Certain countries and certain hotel groups are more lax about this than others. But lugging around an entire family's worth of luggage and/or camping out in an arrival lounge or coffee shop for hours is the worst way to start a vacation.
Totally disagree with the notion that these flights make it easier to get over jetlag. Sure, if you can sleep that night, but I never can (since it's day time at home and my body has had zero time to adjust since you go straight to the hotel at that hour). My next day is horrendous after these flights as I get zero sleep until the very end of the night.
I much prefer...
Totally disagree with the notion that these flights make it easier to get over jetlag. Sure, if you can sleep that night, but I never can (since it's day time at home and my body has had zero time to adjust since you go straight to the hotel at that hour). My next day is horrendous after these flights as I get zero sleep until the very end of the night.
I much prefer the night flight; stay up the full first day and go to bed around 9pm, wake up by 8am the next day and I'm on fully on the time and no jetlag.
Does the 3:45 am TAP Portugal departure from Miami count as “daytime”? LOL
If you're careful, you can be out of the club by 2am and in the air by 4am.
Title feels misleading. It's more accurate to say Delta is reverting to a traditional nighttime flight than "ending" a flight.
There's no loss in capacity, simply a schedule change. Obviously this is done to get engagement, but seems unnecessary tbh.
don't you dare accuse Ben of misstating anything in order to generate page clicks.
And this is also a joint decision with Air France. The "hourly" service pattern from NYC to CDG was part of a joint AF/DL decision. It would be nice to see what else is changing with that pattern. 8.30 pm from JFK is the only time channel when AF or DL does not operate a flight at least today
i don't think the loss in capacity is the issue here -- it's the DAYTIME service ending. after this 8:10 am flight the next one is at 4:30 pm and there will now be nothing until the afternoon. that is very much disappointing
@ Yoloswag420 -- Hey, I respect if you would've titled it differently, but the title is accurate. "Delta Ends New York To Paris Daytime Flight." And Delta is ending the daytime eastbound transatlantic flight, replacing it with an overnight flight. I didn't in any way suggest Delta was reducing capacity to Paris.
Ben,
it is very possible for you to be factually write with what you write but to fail to include the context here and in other stories - and you are a master at manipulating information. The question that only you can answer is why you do it.
When you write an article about UA's addition of LAX-PVG which was announced long ago and then fawn over UA's size at LAX but fail to...
Ben,
it is very possible for you to be factually write with what you write but to fail to include the context here and in other stories - and you are a master at manipulating information. The question that only you can answer is why you do it.
When you write an article about UA's addition of LAX-PVG which was announced long ago and then fawn over UA's size at LAX but fail to note IN THE ARTICLE the cuts that UA has made to its S. Pacific network, including from LAX, there is a clear bias.
Given that you wrote an article about DL's cancellation of STR - but failed to note that DL at STR was the only remaining unique US carrier destination in Germany - but include DUS which was cxld a long time ago, also a unique US carrier destination, your bias is pretty apparent.
When you talk about daytime transatlantic flights but fail to note that this was THE ONLY daytime flight among the big 3 or their JV partners to continental Europe, the bias is very apparent.
Other people can figure out that daytime flights to continental Europe from the US have never been successful - and yet AF/DL tried as part of their plan to operate a near shuttle from NYC to CDG.
You are a smart guy and know the industry and you don't show this kind of bias in discussing other topics so, again, the question is why.
When people have to come behind you and clean up what you don't or wont' say, your readers don't like it and neither do I.
Just present unbiased content the first time and then your comment section won't have to be littered with all of the facts that you selectively ignore.
Ummm.
Tim, just in case you didn't realize yet.
Ben is trying to generate page clicks. But not by misleading titles, but by getting Tim to comment.
Your fluff, while useless and misleading to most people, SEO doesn't understand it. All you do is provide even more words for SEO. With chatGPTim, you can expect 1000+ words.
since I specifically have said that there seem to be a couple of reasons for Ben to have written clear bias into 3 articles over 2 days in order to generate page clicks, then, yes, I am well aware what he is after.
If Ben is happy to intentionally omit parts of the story that some of his readers will realize are part of the story, then let Ben have the page clicks - as...
since I specifically have said that there seem to be a couple of reasons for Ben to have written clear bias into 3 articles over 2 days in order to generate page clicks, then, yes, I am well aware what he is after.
If Ben is happy to intentionally omit parts of the story that some of his readers will realize are part of the story, then let Ben have the page clicks - as long as he also happy to be seen as unable to comprehensively write an article right in the first place.
and if Ben really writes so that I can come behind and clean up after him with the facts and context that he misses, then there really is no basis for those that talk about how they want to see and read less of me in this forum, now is there?
FFS Tim why are you even here if you hate Lucky's site so much? And besides that, as many others point out in the comments, you also manipulate info as well. I have never seen anyone get as triggered by Lucky's post as you seem to be.
I am here to give Ben page clicks which is apparently want he wants? are you incapable of seeing that?
I just happen in a number of articles to correct Ben himself and not just other readers.
So you're basically admitting you get triggered by his posts about Delta, which isn't healthy and doesn't say a lot of positive things about you.
And from what it seems, given the the pushback you always seem to get from multiple people, you aren't correcting anyone.
If everybody is telling you that you are dad, then maybe it's time to lie down.
Sorry, dead, not dad.
first, the daytime Delta operated flight was part of a coordinated schedule by Air France and Delta to have a nearly hourly shuttle across the Atlantic between NYC and CDG during hours that support flight operations.
second, no other carrier has succeeded at US to continental Europe flying but Air France and Delta tried and it apparently doesn't yield as good of results as other options
third, this is the time of the year when...
first, the daytime Delta operated flight was part of a coordinated schedule by Air France and Delta to have a nearly hourly shuttle across the Atlantic between NYC and CDG during hours that support flight operations.
second, no other carrier has succeeded at US to continental Europe flying but Air France and Delta tried and it apparently doesn't yield as good of results as other options
third, this is the time of the year when schedule cuts are announced - because the end of the summer season is approaching. Announcements for new service for 2025 will be coming soon from all carriers. With 25 new widebodies scheduled for delivery in 2024 and 2025, DL has an enormous amount of growth capacity even considering that some 767-300ERs will be (and already have been) retired.
fourth, Delta has proven that it is all about maximizing profits which means it makes decisions based on how assets can best be deployed, they very well could be deploying that 767-400ERs for new service elsewhere in the world
and finally, as much as some people kick and scream to admit it, Delta made substantially more money than any other US airline flying the Atlantic in 2023. They stay at the top of the list in terms of profitability because they could care less about aviation blog writers that are more interested in page clicks or anyone else.
Meanwhile AA and UA fawn about what the A321XLR will do when the economics of transatlantic flying on a 150 seat aircraft fall way short of a new generation widebody. And UA is reportedly looking at used 777-300ERs to fill the gap in delivery schedules from Boeing for the 787 even as Delta IS RECEIVING SCORES of new A350s which will have the capability to do far more than the 787 does.
DL makes as much money as it does because it thinks further down the road than its competitors.
Finances matter because they fuel growth and allow DL to pay its employees the best among the big 3. Ask AA and UA FAs if they care about prestige routes and flights more than getting the pay raises that DL gave ALL of its employees years ago and it should be abundantly clear that DL is aligned throughout the company on the same objectives while AA and UA are not.
Tim trigger alert!!!
Calm down and get some coffee
I've had coffee and I'm hardly triggered.
Ben is trying desperately to catch up with the number of Gary's page clicks and is on a roll with reader replies.
I understand the industry and say all of the facts - no matter who is offended by stating those facts.
DL is making a profit maximizing decision and will announce new routes. Every airline has strong and weak performing flights.
If AA and UA and...
I've had coffee and I'm hardly triggered.
Ben is trying desperately to catch up with the number of Gary's page clicks and is on a roll with reader replies.
I understand the industry and say all of the facts - no matter who is offended by stating those facts.
DL is making a profit maximizing decision and will announce new routes. Every airline has strong and weak performing flights.
If AA and UA and other carriers aren't cancelling routes and flights while DL is, then it only explains why DL is at the top of the heap in terms of profitability among US and European carriers.
Profits matter including to customers and employees - and the service they give.
@Plane Jane
I think he needs a xanax more than he needs coffee.
Tim the homer. STFU for once
Can you save these comments for articles that bring up these points (profit, FAs, etc.)? FFS, all Ben did was mention that the route is going away. We’ve all read everything in your comment from you a thousand times and you don’t have to keep repeating it, especially on an article that’s just about a route update…
EXACTLY THIS!! everyone is well aware that these decisions are about 'maximizing profits,' but as individual passengers, it's far more important to know whether an interesting route is happening that we might want to take. this is a unique route that many people want to see continued! save the performance stuff for an article about performance or on Cranky Flier or something
Everybody knows that airlines try to maximize profits with their operational decisions. Not sure why one article about a flight time change causes a multi paragraph rant. Nobody cares
first, the route is not going away.
Even yolo above can figure out it is a retiming and it is being done jointly with AF.
and profits do matter... that is what drives for-profit companies. The fact that DL does things that give Ben fodder to discuss is because DL makes the tough choices and still keeps growing.
It is actually more telling that Ben didn't cover - and actually whitewashed - UA's pullback...
first, the route is not going away.
Even yolo above can figure out it is a retiming and it is being done jointly with AF.
and profits do matter... that is what drives for-profit companies. The fact that DL does things that give Ben fodder to discuss is because DL makes the tough choices and still keeps growing.
It is actually more telling that Ben didn't cover - and actually whitewashed - UA's pullback from LAX to the S. Pacific so that he could brag about how big UA is at LAX - when in fact, it is not growing but rather just replacing capacity that it added and has had to cancel.
@ Tim Dunn -- "It is actually more telling that Ben didn't cover - and actually whitewashed - UA's pullback from LAX to the S. Pacific so that he could brag about how big UA is at LAX - when in fact, it is not growing but rather just replacing capacity that it added and has had to cancel."
Sorry, what did I miss? I covered when United announced it would end LAX to AKL...
@ Tim Dunn -- "It is actually more telling that Ben didn't cover - and actually whitewashed - UA's pullback from LAX to the S. Pacific so that he could brag about how big UA is at LAX - when in fact, it is not growing but rather just replacing capacity that it added and has had to cancel."
Sorry, what did I miss? I covered when United announced it would end LAX to AKL and BNE flying here:
https://onemileatatime.com/news/united-cancels-los-angeles-auckland-brisbane-routes/
@Ben - time to ban Tim Dunn. This is ridiculous. It was so nice when he disappeared for a while…
Ben:
Please permanently ban Tim Dunn from your website. He’s even far more than over the top. It’s just become nauseating to logical readers. I for one am finished reading your excellent aviation site until he is removed. He has become a really negative stain on your otherwise fine writing.
Imagine being his mom, having to do his laundry after he "gushes" like this.
"Continental Europe" is certainly spinning it.
Flight BA178 departs JFK at 7:55am and arrives at LHR at 7:45pm.
and you truly don't realize that the UK is not in continental Europe?
Please list all of the other DAYTIME eastbound flights that are operated from the US to CONTINENTAL Europe?
honestly, doesn't this get tiring?
--the original DT
yes it is tiring when people waste the bandwidth to post stuff like this
"Continental Europe" is certainly spinning it.
Flight BA178 departs JFK at 7:55am and arrives at LHR at 7:45pm.
---
France is in continental Europe; the UK is not.
Tim what is your point? You don't like Ben we get it. You wish you had one of these blogs and made money from it. We get it. But now that in this one post you have added immensely to global warming. Go away
What is your focus on continental Europe?
You’re making the point that DL has inferior options, when clearly LHR is the more desirable daytime flight destination. Other airlines are successful with daytime flights across the Atlantic. Delta isn’t.
With the amount of spin you apply to everything and the way you're constantly moving goalposts, I’m assuming it won’t be long before your dramatic point about DL’s flights from ATL to AMS making them the...
What is your focus on continental Europe?
You’re making the point that DL has inferior options, when clearly LHR is the more desirable daytime flight destination. Other airlines are successful with daytime flights across the Atlantic. Delta isn’t.
With the amount of spin you apply to everything and the way you're constantly moving goalposts, I’m assuming it won’t be long before your dramatic point about DL’s flights from ATL to AMS making them the clear leader among US carriers between cities that start with the letter A.
The timing of the flight is what did it in. Had they departed two hours later, it would have allowed East Coast feeder traffic to JFK, vastly increasing the number of people interested in the flight.
It would destroy the whole purpose of the flight. That would mean landing near midnight and not getting to your hotel until 1-2am. The purpose is to help jetlag,
Ben
A correction…this wasn’t the first ever Delta metal daytime eastbound transatlantic flight; when Delta started JFK-LHR back in 2008 before the VS tie-up, they did already have a daytime nonstop on the 763.
I liked the timing but would’ve loved to see it on AF metal. I don’t really see why anyone would take DL JFK-CDG when they could just take AF…
I don't really see why people keep making this statement, when the answer is always the same, regardless of airline: "corporate contract, timing, inventory availability, SWUs, and/or just plain preference."
and the 764 is the smallest widebody in the combined AF/DL fleet.
“and the 764 is the smallest widebody in the combined AF/DL fleet.”
Yeah… it isn’t
That would be the 763 for delta or the AF A332
Both fewer seats than the 764
Well aware some people need to fly DL for whatever reason. The point is this would have a better chance of success if it had been flown with AF metal and they should have tried it on AF metal
Based on what?
You have no idea what the cost differential between the two airlines' ops is (prove me wrong), nor do you have anything but assumption as to why one would derive a revenue advantage over the other.
1) Landing at 10 PM Paris time is a bit late. You probably get to your hotel by 11:30 or so at best. The flight needed to leave at 7 AM or 6:30 AM
2) In my experience, Delta is pretty bad at sequencing meals on morning long haul flights. I remember taking a JFK to HNL flight where they served dinner (short ribs or something) at 8 AM in the morning. On this Paris...
1) Landing at 10 PM Paris time is a bit late. You probably get to your hotel by 11:30 or so at best. The flight needed to leave at 7 AM or 6:30 AM
2) In my experience, Delta is pretty bad at sequencing meals on morning long haul flights. I remember taking a JFK to HNL flight where they served dinner (short ribs or something) at 8 AM in the morning. On this Paris eastbound flight, they should serve a light breakfast first followed by lunch or dinner about an hour before landing - but Delta may actually be incapable of that kind of meal cadence.
Americans have such a childish fixation on what is "breakfast" food and what is not.
The timing is the problem with any daytime eastbound flight to anywhere in Continental Europe. All flights will be longer than to LHR and all of them are at least one hour later than LHR, making the arrival time very late. On top of that, if you want connections on the US departure end, you can’t leave NYC too early. Leaving before 0800 JFK time would cut off a good portion of connecting traffic.
@Todd there are plenty of red-eyes from the West Coast that could feed into this flight at 7:30am, if timed correctly. That said, with direct flights to CDG from SEA, PDX, SFO, and LAX, I can't imagine folks would prefer to connect in JFK unless they really wanted to land in the late evening to fight jetlag, as @Ben points out (I actually would).
This makes no sense, as it was the most profitable flight in the history of transatlantic flying. I’m devastated.
The real Tim Dunn is a Diamond member of OMAAT. This person is a Guest. Rather adolescent.
not just adolescent but a fraud that can't stand to admit that there are people that understand this industry and present facts which they don't want to hear.
Thank you for having your fraud alerts fully deployed on a Sunday morning.
You’re such a loser. ThAnK yOu FoR uNdErStAnDiNg ThE iNduStRy. Clown.
Not tim using fake names again and replying to his fake names with his own fake name