There’s no denying that the “big three” US carriers aren’t always popular with consumers. I’ve written posts dedicated to the things that I like about American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, and United Airlines. After all, there’s no perfect airline, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.
On a slightly less positive note, in this post I’d like to share what I like least about each of the “big three” US carriers. Most of my points are intended to be more big picture, though in a couple of cases I’ll share specific shortcomings of the experience offered by each airline. I’ll provide my take, and then I’m curious to hear what OMAAT readers think.
In this post:
What I like least about American Airlines
There are two things I like least about American — the lack of a consistent strategy, and the carrier’s international route network. First and foremost, American lacks a strategy. Or at least the airline can’t keep a strategy long enough to actually have any sort of an identity.
Remember a decade ago, when American was trying to become more premium, and was installing seat back TVs on domestic planes? And then remember several years ago, the airline started ripping seat back TVs out of these same planes, arguing that the carrier’s product is its schedule, and nothing more? And that bring us to today, where American is once again trying to become more premium, realizing that it’s lagging competitors.
How often can you shift your strategy without any sort of full overhaul of the management team? American has spent the past several years essentially trying to compete with ultra low cost carriers more than competing with Delta and United. All of that is great, except for the fact that the airline has high labor costs and tens of billions of dollars in debt.
Obviously this lack of a strategy also isn’t good for employee morale, as people don’t actually know what kind of a product they’re supposed to be delivering. What’s the mission that American employees are supposed to get behind? I think this is a huge issue, and it’s one of the reasons service at the airline is so inconsistent.
Second of all, up until recently, American was the largest airline in the world by some metrics, yet almost unarguably has the blandest international route network of the “big three” US carriers.
It’s borderline depressing to compare the route networks of American and United. While United flies to places ranging from Bangkok, to Cape Town, to Singapore, to Tahiti, American seems content just being a massive domestic airline, with a limited long haul international network.
Fortunately Vasu Raja is no longer at American, but do you remember how excited that guy got about El Paso? I don’t know about you guys, but I’m more with United’s Patrick Quayle, who gets excited by Nuuk and Ulaanbaatar.
What I like least about Delta Air Lines
There are three things that I like least about Delta — hubris, the SkyMiles program, and Boeing 767s.
First of all, let’s talk about hubris. I think Delta is better than American and United in terms of customer service. Most Delta employees genuinely seem to like their jobs, and they know how to take care of customers. They’re also invested in the success of the company, thanks to the size of profit sharing payouts.
However, I can’t help but feel like the company lacks humility. Delta is slightly better than the competition. Delta management not only knows that, but in my opinion management thinks they’re better by a bigger margin than they actually are.
Now, funny enough, in my post about things Delta does well, I talked about how the airline has a clear vision of being premium, and I pointed out how Delta so strongly marketing itself as premium is probably a good thing for the company’s bottom line. But still, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a bit off-putting for the airline to be so full of itself.
Next up is Delta SkyMiles. While American AAdvantage is far from perfect, it’s in a completely different league than Delta SkyMiles in terms of how rewarding it is. While I can appreciate the simplicity of SkyMiles, and that Delta has basically turned its miles into a currency worth a cent each, the lack of aspirational redemption opportunities makes me have almost no interest in the program.
Hey, I’m not saying the reality of Delta SkyMiles is necessarily bad for the carrier’s bottom line, but as a consumer, I sure don’t love it, and struggle to get excited. Fortunately plenty of other people are happy to stay on the hamster wheel.
Lastly, Delta’s Boeing 767 fleet is a major disadvantage. For the most part, Delta has older planes than American, but maintains them well. The exception is Boeing 767s. Delta has a big fleet of these, and in my opinion, they offer the worst wide body business class experience that you’ll find on any of the “big three” US carriers.
Now, admittedly not all planes are created equal. Delta’s 767-300ERs are much worse than the 767-400ERs, but even the 767-400 seats are really narrow. I think just about anyone reasonable would agree that there’s a night and day difference between the business class product on Delta’s 767s and United’s 767s.
It’s just such a contrasting experience to enjoy the incredible Delta One Lounge JFK, and then get onboard, and see the state of Delta’s 767-300 business class.
What I like least about United Airlines
There are two things that I like least about United — that service could be better, and the MileagePlus program.
Let’s start with service. United is the US airline most trending in the right direction. The airline has an amazing route network, and is investing in its onboard experience and in premium capacity. In many ways I’d argue that United is a more compelling airline nowadays than Delta, with one major catch — service.
If you ask me, United is in the same league as American when it comes to service, and not in the same league as Delta. Following the Dr. Dao incident, former United CEO Oscar Munoz spent a lot of his time talking about how United had some customer service renaissance under his leadership.
While it’s true that people aren’t being dragged off United flights, United’s alleged radical customer service transformation simply doesn’t match my experience. To be clear, I’m not saying that service at United is consistently bad, or anything. There are lots of great employees. I am saying, however, that service is quite inconsistent, much like at American.
Whether right or wrong, if I’m flying Delta, I generally expect good service, and am disappointed if I don’t get it. Meanwhile if I’m flying American or United, I don’t expect much, and I’m delighted if I do get excellent service.
All of this shouldn’t come as a surprise. I mean, United’s flight attendants have been in a heated contract dispute for a long time, while Delta flight attendants aren’t unionized and get big profit sharing checks (to be clear, I’m not saying the lack of unionization is good or bad, but it reflects that they’re happy enough with the company).
If United could get on Delta’s level when it comes to customer service, that would be a game changer. But it’s also not easy to change a company’s culture in that way.
Second, I’ve gotta say, the general devaluation of MileagePlus miles over the years is quite disappointing to see, and puts United more in Delta’s league than American’s league when it comes to the value of miles. Ultimately I guess people put up with it in order to fly United (just as is the case with Delta), but still, the good uses of MileagePlus miles are so much more limited than in the past.
The primary issue is that if you’re a value maximizer, you’ll almost never get a better value through MileagePlus than through Air Canada Aeroplan or Avianca Lifemiles, for example. It’s such a shame, because I’d otherwise consider United’s Star Alliance membership to be a major asset.
Bottom line
After writing posts about all of the good things about the “big three” US carriers, I figure it’s only fair to share my major criticisms of the airlines as well. I’m not saying any of the above are the single biggest problems at the airlines, though when I think of the negatives of the above three airlines, those are the first things that come to mind, in terms of my perception as a consumer.
I’m curious to hear how OMAAT readers feel — do you disagree with any of my takes? What do you like least about each of the “big three” US carriers?
While I find United's customer service to be lacking, I also find Delta's inconsistent even if it is slightly better. The only thing I noticed is that United is far more generous when it comes to providing compensation when things go wrong- for flight delays and cancellations United will consistently give out hundreds of $$ in travel certs while delta will usually only give out $75-$200 max. Maybe part of the "hubris" issue with delta...
While I find United's customer service to be lacking, I also find Delta's inconsistent even if it is slightly better. The only thing I noticed is that United is far more generous when it comes to providing compensation when things go wrong- for flight delays and cancellations United will consistently give out hundreds of $$ in travel certs while delta will usually only give out $75-$200 max. Maybe part of the "hubris" issue with delta since they think they don't need to pay people to stay loyal? But honestly I'm fine to put up with some shittier customer service for a few hundreds of dollars a year but maybe that's me haha. Also, while Mileageprogram is not great, there are still sweet spots in the program that don't exist in Delta's program (or very rare) when it comes to international travel. Direct business class flights to Asia aren't that rare to find in saver space at 100k and almost always available at 170k. Skypesos are ridiculously ballooned to 300k+ which makes them almost unusable for outsized value.
For American, I like least is their premium lounges. Compared to Polaris lounge or DeltaOne lounge, AA's flagship first is just ok.
@DenB. The USA did have two world class, service oriented airlines named Pan Am and TWA. But folks in America speak with their dollars & it’s created the garbage we now have called Spirit and Frontier. Be careful what you ask for because you might just get it.
The USA is now a social media Kim Kardashian, People magazine trash culture. The time of airlines being service cultures are long gone my friend & never to return. Airbus.
On the bright side
At least all the other rational posters today realize their favorite airlines aren’t perfect.
What a fun read.
there are some pretty rational people on here including this statement
"Hubris is such a weird thing to index on.
"I'm not sure any consumer cares about "hubris" when it comes to decision making."
and the same is true about the personality of a CEO, even as he and others try to frame it when the reality is that there is at least one US airline CEO that has made repeated mistakes which have allowed...
there are some pretty rational people on here including this statement
"Hubris is such a weird thing to index on.
"I'm not sure any consumer cares about "hubris" when it comes to decision making."
and the same is true about the personality of a CEO, even as he and others try to frame it when the reality is that there is at least one US airline CEO that has made repeated mistakes which have allowed its primary competitor to grow. It's no wonder some people don't want to see that discussed.
and it is no more reasonable to think that an inch difference in seat width is a make or break purchase decision any more than onboard food quality.
There are a host of factors that go into a purchase decision and if those two factors really mattered as the sole factor, DL would have parked its 767 fleet years ago because no one would be flying them and UA would have lost all of its customers because its food is consistently rated much worse than the competition.
Clearly an inch of seat width doesn't matter and DL does manage to make good money using its 767 fleet and people do put up with UA's food and keep coming back.
Rationality is putting everything in perspective, not something you or alot of people that participate in aviation chat forums are capable of doing.
So you’re saying DL’s hubris doesn’t matter but Scott Kirby’s does?
I don’t get it. Why does DL, as an airline, self-aggrandizing not matter but Kirby talking up UA does?
Is this yet another example of you wanting it both ways?
DL's "hubris" is an accusation from losers like you that can't admit that DL really has won.
UA is an imposter that incessantly tries to lump itself with Delta but never can quite get it over the line.
YOU are the one that wants to keep moving the line and the logic by which you apply "line rules" is so flippantly obvious that it is laughable.
oh, get back w/ us on UA's PRASM...
DL's "hubris" is an accusation from losers like you that can't admit that DL really has won.
UA is an imposter that incessantly tries to lump itself with Delta but never can quite get it over the line.
YOU are the one that wants to keep moving the line and the logic by which you apply "line rules" is so flippantly obvious that it is laughable.
oh, get back w/ us on UA's PRASM when it pays industry average, let alone industry leading, salaries and benefits.
Anyone can lead anything when you take it out of your employees' backsides.
What if I get back to you with stock returns? You know, since UAL is a more popular stock than DAL at the moment, and has outreturned DAL since COVID (and since Kirby took over). Let’s be frank - the big 3 US carriers are B- carriers in unique ways. Here’s what I really don’t like:
Delta - Tim Dunn rants. Half this blog readership would love Delta if Tim post didn’t exist. If Delta...
What if I get back to you with stock returns? You know, since UAL is a more popular stock than DAL at the moment, and has outreturned DAL since COVID (and since Kirby took over). Let’s be frank - the big 3 US carriers are B- carriers in unique ways. Here’s what I really don’t like:
Delta - Tim Dunn rants. Half this blog readership would love Delta if Tim post didn’t exist. If Delta is so much damn better, you should be able to let it speak for itself. That and fix the app.
United - Scott Kirby bootlicking BOTH Biden and Trump. Grow a spine and fix the catering. And bring back Channel 9.
American - stop making every flight connect through Dallas or Charlotte. Even Philly would be an upgrade. And stop trying to be Southwest, they even stopped trying to be Southwest.
I'll tell you about stock market returns.
UAL's 1 year stock performance is still well above average for the industry but if you look at YTD stock performance between DAL and UAL, it is within a couple of percent. LUV was well ahead of both for a time this year but has stalled based on their lower revenue expectations.
AAL is the bottom performer in YTD stock among the big 4 along with the rest...
I'll tell you about stock market returns.
UAL's 1 year stock performance is still well above average for the industry but if you look at YTD stock performance between DAL and UAL, it is within a couple of percent. LUV was well ahead of both for a time this year but has stalled based on their lower revenue expectations.
AAL is the bottom performer in YTD stock among the big 4 along with the rest of the LCC and ULCCs. ALK has underperformed DAL and UAL.
And UAL is worth 80% of DAL as an entity; they got a nice bump from about 2/3 of DAL where they were for years but are now right at 80% of UAL is still only worth about 80% of DAL.
and UAL still underpays its labor by about $1 billion/year; it's not hard to do financially better when you tout your performance at the expense of your employees.
nobody in the real world - which doesn't read let alone heed or make purchase decisions what is said on aviation social media or by the CEOs personality.
Period. Full stop.
I don't speak on national news - nor do I want to -and trash the FAA and DOT after overscheduling an airport for scores of years. Which is why I didn't get the FAA to impose capacity restrictions on my highest revenue hub and then sheepishly come back and say "yeah, that is what we wanted"
UA doesn't fix the catering because they have decided it doesn't matter.
DL still flies the 767 with a business class cabin that they know is not in the same class as their other aircraft because they know that less than an inch of seat width doesn't offset a million other factors including the much more dense cabin a competitor uses to get wider seats.
AA and WN are both trying to fix their business models and are in better positions financially than most of the rest of the "non-performing" parts of the US airline industry.
US airlines are mass transportation systems by design burdened by labor laws that make US airlines spend by far more on labor than airlines in any other country of the world do even as the government wants intense price competition even though the "haves" of the US economy are what drives airline profitability and airlines that cater to the "have nots" are circling the drain.
social media of any type can be entertaining but it is far from reality; anybody that is incapable of keeping it all in perspective would do well to step back
Last 5 years, UAL is up 174%. Same timespan for Delta? ~104%
Last year? UAL up 132%
DAL is 47%
YTD? DAL is down about 3%. UAL is up about 2%
You can type 11 paragraphs to yourself to try to ignore that, but it's still a fact. UAL is easily the leader in the industry for stocks right now. Stick to what you know, it isn't stock performance. Hate Scott Kirby all you want. Your jealousy doesn't make his investors less money.
8 paragraph response to me to simply admit you’re the unspoken irrational one
Rough day for you, tim
no, my day is off to a very good start max.
as usual you are the one that consistently proves you are incapable of rationally and accurately discussing the topic so trash those that can.
irrational are those that think what exists on social media, including airline social media, approaches anywhere close to reality.
and yet here you are with probably 100+ paragraphs in this comment section alone since you seem to think this comment section is the only reality you live in. ;)
You're entertaining but a joke.
When you acknowledge yourself as an irrational poster, you are an irrational poster. I didn't mention your name but you replied knowing your own reputation.
the only joke is someone that counts words and paragraphs because they are incapable of addressing the real issues.
This article will fall off the first page today and you will continue to look like the court jester that can't play with the big boys so flail uncontrollably.
Doesn't matter who you talk about. The message is all the same; others discuss real issues, you discuss people.
YOU are the laughingstock and aren't...
the only joke is someone that counts words and paragraphs because they are incapable of addressing the real issues.
This article will fall off the first page today and you will continue to look like the court jester that can't play with the big boys so flail uncontrollably.
Doesn't matter who you talk about. The message is all the same; others discuss real issues, you discuss people.
YOU are the laughingstock and aren't smart enough to know that YOU have been marginalized, not me.
lol. Ok buddy. Nothing to reply about your ignorance on stock returns, huh?
You got owned as usual. You are truly delusional and amusing.
I would say that Americans route network is wider than it seems because you can earn points on ba flights even if they’re not codeshares.
Big D has be oversold on themselves since at least the 70's, if not before. They deserve credit for running a darn good operation; and to have aimed themselves in the right direction at the right time. But they should try humility.
the problem w/ your statement is that Delta IS at the head of the class among US airlines and, in some metrics, the head of the global airline industry.
And, Delta doesn't even compare itself to other airlines while United's exec team does it incessantly.
It doesn't matter what it is in life, if you are good, people know it and don't have you remind them.
Yet UA is the most profitable at running an airline operation, with more than revenue and better yields.
DL is better, for now, at bringing in credit card revenue.
https://onemileatatime.com/news/airlines-operate-loss-leaders-loyalty-programs/
I was a corporate travel manager in San Francisco in the late 80's to mid 90s. We were SABRE automated at AA was a tax & audit client of our global firm. AA Sales could not understand my my people were not flying AA...well it's because you flew to HNL, ORD, DFW, JFK and MIA. Period. United...which was not especially easy to deal with in a fortress hub like SFO, went EVERYWHERE my people wanted...
I was a corporate travel manager in San Francisco in the late 80's to mid 90s. We were SABRE automated at AA was a tax & audit client of our global firm. AA Sales could not understand my my people were not flying AA...well it's because you flew to HNL, ORD, DFW, JFK and MIA. Period. United...which was not especially easy to deal with in a fortress hub like SFO, went EVERYWHERE my people wanted to go and AA didnt get it. Bought AirCal...ruined a chance on the West Coast. Bought RenoAir, again....lost opportunity. I remember when AA was OK, with hot meals in coach to Dallas, but they have never had a plan that they would stick to and grow. Such as hubs in SJC and BNA ? remember that ?
I am truly glad that maybe they are seeing the light and want a great customer service exerience. I wish them well !
I generally agree with your perspective Lucky. For my $ I choose DL. I give up value added miles redemption. I value consistent good treatment by front line personnel. I feel that DL understands they need the customer more than the customer needs them. I don’t feel that way on AA or UA. Vote with your wallet.
One item I haven't seen mentioned is getting to and from one's destination safely. That's the one thing all the airlines do well - and the one that's really the most important. Ask the families of those who perished at DCA what's really important to them. I'm guessing they'd all choose to have their loved one around, as opposed to having a gourmet meal, lots of in-flight entertainment choices, a seat back TV, or a fancy lounge.
Often, the things that are most important in life are the things we take for granted. The most important single thing each of us has is our lives.
My wife and I took a trip to India this past spring, and we ended up booking flights on American Airlines since it was the most affordable and convenient option at the time. TBH, I wasn’t too excited about flying with them, as my past experiences on their transatlantic flights hadn’t been pleasant at all, but hey - at least my wallet was happy.
However, I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of service...
My wife and I took a trip to India this past spring, and we ended up booking flights on American Airlines since it was the most affordable and convenient option at the time. TBH, I wasn’t too excited about flying with them, as my past experiences on their transatlantic flights hadn’t been pleasant at all, but hey - at least my wallet was happy.
However, I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of service on our flights. The flight attendants were warm and caring throughout the 15-hour journey in economy. Occasionally, they engaged in small talk with us and other passengers, which really made a HUGE difference. Usually, you only see that level of customer service in First or Business class, hardly anyone bothers with the cattle class travelers. Since it was a red-eye (both ways), they walked the aisles regularly and offered water bottles to anyone who was awake.
The in-flight catering was average (or even below average) compared to ME or Asian airlines, but aside from that, the experience was fantastic. I’m not sure if I just got lucky or if American has really stepped up their game. Either way, this trip was good enough that I wouldn’t hesitate much before booking a long-haul with them again.
United cabin crew out of Denver is always a highlight. The best in United’s network.
United’s Polaris lounge in Denver is the lowlight. It’s non existent. The only United hub to have no Polaris lounge.
" Fortunately plenty of other people are happy to stay on the hamster wheel."
Eh, that's a stretch, Ben. Remember there are plenty of people out there using SkyMiles redemptions primarily for regional flights, and those redemptions aren't too shabby. Frankly, here in the PNW there are many times when DL redemptions are preferable to AS or AA...
and there are also plenty of people that earn their SkyMiles from corporate travel that is paid for by someone else.
DL's biggest advantage is that far more of its revenue comes from people other than the direct customers.
AA simply does not have that level of corporate travel because of the product it delivers and AA's weakness in NYC and LAX - where DL has gained over the past 5 years at AA's...
and there are also plenty of people that earn their SkyMiles from corporate travel that is paid for by someone else.
DL's biggest advantage is that far more of its revenue comes from people other than the direct customers.
AA simply does not have that level of corporate travel because of the product it delivers and AA's weakness in NYC and LAX - where DL has gained over the past 5 years at AA's expense. UA does not have the domestic network that competes with DL in the biggest markets in aggregate; given how much UA talks about the superiority of its network, it is very telling that DL saw the opportunity during covid to displace AA in LAX for top spot and has now done it in NYC with UA.
AA had historically always had a bigger share of corporate travel, especially in NYC. Vasu absolutely trashed it and lit it on fire. DL wisely swooped in and took as much as they could get. AA is currently rebuilding what they had. It’ll be a minute and cost a lot.
Regarding UA vs DL in NYC, DL has more flights, but those are much more likely to be on a regional jet, with more than half of them from LGA, restricted by a perimeter rule.
UA has more revenue and, considering similar costs, more profit in NYC, as evidenced in the recent thread on top revenue routes. UA has six of its top ten from NYC while DL only has three. UA’s number ten...
Regarding UA vs DL in NYC, DL has more flights, but those are much more likely to be on a regional jet, with more than half of them from LGA, restricted by a perimeter rule.
UA has more revenue and, considering similar costs, more profit in NYC, as evidenced in the recent thread on top revenue routes. UA has six of its top ten from NYC while DL only has three. UA’s number ten route would rank as number six for DL.
Also pointed out in other posts, UA is more profitable as an airline, with DL making up the in credit card revenue.
Mark,
total revenue for NYC won't be available for months.
DL now has 33% more flights from NYC than UA. You can tout all you want about how many more ASMs UA generates with its international routes but the revenue advantage falls off very quickly when the difference in size is as big as it is now.
the only real meaningful difference in UA's coverage and DL's from NYC is UA's service to the...
Mark,
total revenue for NYC won't be available for months.
DL now has 33% more flights from NYC than UA. You can tout all you want about how many more ASMs UA generates with its international routes but the revenue advantage falls off very quickly when the difference in size is as big as it is now.
the only real meaningful difference in UA's coverage and DL's from NYC is UA's service to the Arab Middle East, Tokyo, and a single flight to India.
DL already carries more traffic to S. America on its own metal than UA on an annual basis; EZE will restart and be at least 8 months of the year if not year round and GIG is a seasonal route. and that is before the LA JV.
You are free to thumb your nose at the domestic market and say it doesn't matter but that is precisely where the majority of corporate revenue comes from.
Do you also realize that DL carries, on average 20 more passengers per int'l flight from JFK than UA does from EWR? given the scarcity of flights, it seems even more foolish to be talking about using 737s and 757s and later 321XLRs to fly across the Atlantic while DL flies an all widebody schedule.
and DL will add service to Asia from NYC; and when they do, there is no hope that UA will match DL's revenue or ASMs even if DL hasn't already surpassed UA right now.
let's ditch this childish notion that PRASM matters but TRASM doesn't. UA has had the exact same opportunities to develop MRO, credit card and every other kind of revenue and DL simply did all of that better.
DL not only generates more revenue than UA does all lines of business considered but DL also succeeded at acquiring a refinery, a strategy that UA tried and failed at.
and, more significantly, DL generates far more revenue per ASM than UA does. It is not a badge of honor to fly 10% more ASMs and generate fractionally more passenger revenue.
This isn't a thread about DL vs. UA - but most of them turn out that way because you and others simply cannot accept that Scott Kirby both at US and over the past 6 months as CEO of UA has done volumes to help DL grow in NYC.
The sooner you and others accept that DL has taken advantage of the mistakes of other carriers in NYC - AA, B6 AND UA - and has continued to grow and could well have reached the place where they cannot be touched.
and then repeat the same thing for LA.
and DL clearly is no longer afraid of what UA says given that it is willing to take them on to HKG and ORD.
You can rest reasonably comfortable that DL has no plans to try to dethrone UA at ORD, leaving UA with one out of three of the biggest US markets.
Yes, more flights on regional jets from a split hub, with one of the two stations restricted by a perimeter rule, resulting in DL not even bothering to apply for a JFK-HND slot they almost definitely would have been granted.
Check out the last full-year revenue markets. UA makes significantly more revenue in the transcons from EWR than DL does from JFK. UA even makes more in a LGA market than DL does in...
Yes, more flights on regional jets from a split hub, with one of the two stations restricted by a perimeter rule, resulting in DL not even bothering to apply for a JFK-HND slot they almost definitely would have been granted.
Check out the last full-year revenue markets. UA makes significantly more revenue in the transcons from EWR than DL does from JFK. UA even makes more in a LGA market than DL does in half of their top 10 revenue markets.
DL reliance on regional jets might give them more flights but smaller average gauge and significantly less revenue, both from a passenger and cargo perspective.
Mark,
we get that you desperately want to be the tough guy but you are simply the guy that can't admit that you are wrong. United's single airport strategy simply does not provide superior coverage of NYC to the world. all of it including the USA.
Yes, Delta carries an average of 110 passengers per flight from all of its NYC flights compared to 132 for UA.
But DL operates 33% more flights and...
Mark,
we get that you desperately want to be the tough guy but you are simply the guy that can't admit that you are wrong. United's single airport strategy simply does not provide superior coverage of NYC to the world. all of it including the USA.
Yes, Delta carries an average of 110 passengers per flight from all of its NYC flights compared to 132 for UA.
But DL operates 33% more flights and thus carries 11% more total passengers from NYC.
You can tell us all you want how great UA's strategy is of flying to a bunch of off-the-wall destinations with the only nonstop flights from the US but corporate revenue comes mostly from domestic operations, where DL carries 28% more passengers to/from NYC than UA does. All of those flights to islands in Portugal and Trump's wannabe massive island in the N. Atlantic don't move the real revenue number in NYC one iota.
You and UA execs would do well to go back for a read of Pan Am and TWA's history - both failed to develop their domestic networks while bragging about their international presence. It is no wonder that UA folded like a house of cards against AA's MIA hub; we are in a more recent phase of the same thing playing out in NYC.
If UA was on an equal footing to DL in the domestic market from NYC - just as it is in the rest of the country - then flying to all of those remote places would be great - but UA is far below DL's level in the domestic market and won't ever match what DL has.
SFO doesn't work because it is a huge TPAC gateway but because it has a much larger domestic operation.
IAD is a great place to carry passengers to Greenland, Portuguese islands and summer seasonal dots on the map in Spain.
Brag all you want.
DL has outsmarted UA in NYC thanks to two rounds of Scott Kirby's lack of ability to see the big picture.
and DL hasn't even re-added flights from JFK to Asia outside of TLV. yet.
Hubris is such a weird thing to index on.
I'm not sure any consumer cares about "hubris" when it comes to decision making.
it does when every decision made from emoloyee training and acculturation to loyalty benefit devaluations is filtered through the hubris.
this isn't Germany and you're not doing me a favor by permitting me to patronize your business.
In terms of service delivery culture and the product you are delivering plays a huge role.
I am a Cabin Manager for a (non US) legacy airline and performance managing has become the bane of my life. I cannot tell you how many times I have tried to address poor attitude of my team to basically be told that I am 'diminishing' said persons feelings, 'bullying' them, harassing them, have a personal issue with them...
In terms of service delivery culture and the product you are delivering plays a huge role.
I am a Cabin Manager for a (non US) legacy airline and performance managing has become the bane of my life. I cannot tell you how many times I have tried to address poor attitude of my team to basically be told that I am 'diminishing' said persons feelings, 'bullying' them, harassing them, have a personal issue with them etc etc. and that they will complain about me to their ground manager. Fortunately, at my airline I have a fantastic ground manager myself who I know will back me up but for some of my colleagues they just will not put themselves in the firing line.
Eastern/Middle Eastern airlines do not have this problem - if a staff member is not performing, they are performance managed and if they do not improve they are out. In Europe, the threat of being dragged through an industrial tribunal for bullying hangs over your head.
Or, the other failsafe get out of jail card for any misbehaviour - mental health. I in absolutely no way wish to diminish the experience of those suffering with mental health issues (been there myself) but it has just become the most easy go to for front line staff who want to come to work, get paid and basically not perform. And they are untouchable.
The second factor - product. I would say 99.9% of inflight crew WANT great product to be able to give to customers. It is pure logic. Happy customers make our day easier. Airlines pare back product more and more make seating tighter and tighter, design planes with less lavs and smaller galleys and it all leads to a lot of unhappy people in a metal tube.
Ground staff have it even tougher. I know some people that are the nicest people ever however have an awful attitude at work. Which is basically a defence mechanism. They are so used to being berated, yelled at, blamed for every delayed/cancelled or overbooked flight they pretty much develop a 'do not even try' persona.
You have to look after the people that look after your customers and give them the tools to do their job. And sure, everyone loves money - but I can assure you it is not the only motivating factor especially in airlines where many work groups (flight attendants, pilots) are essentially remote workers.
MileagePlus doesn't offer as good value as Aeroplan and LifeMiles - but both of those programs have absolutely terrible phone customer service. Credit where it's due: UA's customer service has improved considerably since the doldrums of the early 2000s. Honestly I'd rather spend a few thousand extra miles per ticket, and be assured of being able to talk to an agent if I need to change the ticket, than transfer miles to the other two...
MileagePlus doesn't offer as good value as Aeroplan and LifeMiles - but both of those programs have absolutely terrible phone customer service. Credit where it's due: UA's customer service has improved considerably since the doldrums of the early 2000s. Honestly I'd rather spend a few thousand extra miles per ticket, and be assured of being able to talk to an agent if I need to change the ticket, than transfer miles to the other two programs and be lost in an empty black hole when things go awry.
I agree I'd rather spend "a few thousand". but that's not the actual difference, is it @snic? It's double the price and more.
Enjoy your better call centre experience and feel free to laugh at me when I'm in ANA First Class for under 100,000 points.
Ben is right for most of this article except American Airlines' routes. AA doesn't have to be a Communist airline that flies to a lot of foreign airports. Look at United in the early 80's or so. Just one SEA HKG route, 99% domestic airline
What is a "communist airline"?
communism aside, the notion that international is sexy, even if flown on a narrowbody aircraft on a seasonal, less than daily basis, is somehow superior to a year round presence at much larger domestic airports is just plain silly.
UA and its fans love to talk about their network but it gets more than a little prickly when people point out that UA is the largest in only one of the top 3 metros -...
communism aside, the notion that international is sexy, even if flown on a narrowbody aircraft on a seasonal, less than daily basis, is somehow superior to a year round presence at much larger domestic airports is just plain silly.
UA and its fans love to talk about their network but it gets more than a little prickly when people point out that UA is the largest in only one of the top 3 metros - Chicago. and UA is about #6 in Florida, by far one of the largest state markets in the US. I'm not sure any other of the big 4 have such a big gap in a major market between their "global" and region or state specific rank.
we are all capable of cherrypicking the perspectives we think matters the most. Success about something as tangible as airline networks can be measured. UA simply doesn't translate its "massive" network into revenues and profits as well as other carriers do.
Who cares if it is the biggest airline we care about the routes and where we can fly to.
UA is more profitable from running the airline, DL brings in more credit card revenue.
UA will have a much easier time increasing revenue from Chase in the next agreement than DL will running a more profitable airline than UA, especially as they launch unprofitable routes like LAX-HKG and LAX-ORD to keep up with UA, or hold onto unprofitable HNL-HND to keep the slot out of UA’s hands.
The US3 indeed have their pluses and their minuses. You are spot on about Delta. It lacks humility, and has a wildly aggrandized vision of itself. In the end, Delta is a trunk carrier, with a hodge podge of planes, some good some bad. Its premium cabins are underwhelming, as is its catering, and the lack of consistency and very dated Delta One cabins on A333/332 and 763 jets and its cafeteria style, overcrowded clubs,...
The US3 indeed have their pluses and their minuses. You are spot on about Delta. It lacks humility, and has a wildly aggrandized vision of itself. In the end, Delta is a trunk carrier, with a hodge podge of planes, some good some bad. Its premium cabins are underwhelming, as is its catering, and the lack of consistency and very dated Delta One cabins on A333/332 and 763 jets and its cafeteria style, overcrowded clubs, are a big no no. Delta is profitable because it has figured out better than the rest how to screw the customer over and over and reap profits. It is not a premium airline at all.
American as you say, lacks strategy and vision. Very inconsistent. It does however have a solid, if boring business class, and OW is a formidable network. The clubs are a cut above, marginally.
United's network and uniform Polaris cabins are what it has going for it. It has poor service and really bad food.
As someone who flies TATL a lot, I avoid all three and opt for a European carrier wherever possible.
Me too. We used to refer to the 763s as ‘delta shit buckets’
Debating the US3 is like debating which brand of frozen, concentrated orange juice is best.
It is like sticking your hand in a trash bag and trying to sort the contents out. Some items there might stink less than others but it is all garbage.
The fanboys
I can certainly respect that those are the primary issues you have with those programs. I'll point out that I find AA to be horribly unreliable. Admittedly I don't travel loads, only a few times a year, but over the past 3 years I've found that every time I or someone I knew flew with AA, they were inevitably delayed on one leg of their journey by at least an hour. I haven't had that...
I can certainly respect that those are the primary issues you have with those programs. I'll point out that I find AA to be horribly unreliable. Admittedly I don't travel loads, only a few times a year, but over the past 3 years I've found that every time I or someone I knew flew with AA, they were inevitably delayed on one leg of their journey by at least an hour. I haven't had that problem with Delta, Alaska, or United (nor Jetblue for that matter, but I know Jetblue isn't reliable either). Having several young children, I just don't feel comfortably flying with AA out of fear of some kind of rolling delay, either at the gate or on the plane, leading to meltdowns and stress. At least with UA and Delta, if they do have delays, they typically are better at communicating them than AA, who admittedly won't update departure times even when they know there will be delays.
For AA, it's (1) actively hostile approach to passengers by staff in the air and particularly on the ground and (2) MIA.
I rarely fly Delta as they're not a great option where I live but am always amazed at how they underdeliver, given all the hype.
Honestly United's awful in-flight food would rank above the MileagePlus issues for me... And I don't know why they can't fix it when they found money to upgrade the wine program.
I would also say Lufthansa as a core partner airline is a huge downside of United lol. This wasn't always the case of course but in the last 5 years, I have found having to deal with Lufthansa on anything Europe related (you get...
Honestly United's awful in-flight food would rank above the MileagePlus issues for me... And I don't know why they can't fix it when they found money to upgrade the wine program.
I would also say Lufthansa as a core partner airline is a huge downside of United lol. This wasn't always the case of course but in the last 5 years, I have found having to deal with Lufthansa on anything Europe related (you get stuck with them for a lot of European destinations even if the long flight is United) is a huge detractor. Some of the seats in their new cabins are nice but their old business class is horrible and their lounges in Europe are showing their age and are in need of a refresh and reconcept.
The food is slowly (way too slowly) improving in Polaris. Its still not great but I've had consistently decent to good meals on Polaris the last year or so. But yeah, I would've added that as something that I truly dislike about United.
The Lufthansa point is a great one also. You often get OK mileage redemptions for Lufthansa J but most of the planes are a joke in terms of the fit out. Allegris will change things... in like 2033 the rate it's going.
Everyone remember that Lucky is giving an overall, 35,000 foot (pun intended) overview of the big 3 carriers. I find this post to be very well-balanced and objective. I think Lucky is spot-on with his overview and findings. Well done!
yes, but it has plenty of bias and subjective measurement that others will see differently.
Ben has never tried to argue that is defined by objective data but it isn't hard to see that a number of things he says he likes and dislikes are highly subjective which he more than accurately notes as what he says.
Even WRT business class seats and comfort which is a hot topic for Ben, it is...
yes, but it has plenty of bias and subjective measurement that others will see differently.
Ben has never tried to argue that is defined by objective data but it isn't hard to see that a number of things he says he likes and dislikes are highly subjective which he more than accurately notes as what he says.
Even WRT business class seats and comfort which is a hot topic for Ben, it is not hard to measure how well different seat products compare to each other - and yet that almost never happens and is never the basis of what Ben writes about seats.
It is up to each individual reader to decide whether Ben's subjective evaluations matter to them.
@ Tim Dunn -- Let's debate! Tell me where I'm wrong regarding business class seats. My claims are simple:
-- Delta's A350 business class seat is very good, probably the best you'll find at a US airline, along with American's new 787-9 business class (which is only available on a very limited number of aircraft)
-- Delta's A330neos have good business class seats for A330s, but you feel the lack of width of...
@ Tim Dunn -- Let's debate! Tell me where I'm wrong regarding business class seats. My claims are simple:
-- Delta's A350 business class seat is very good, probably the best you'll find at a US airline, along with American's new 787-9 business class (which is only available on a very limited number of aircraft)
-- Delta's A330neos have good business class seats for A330s, but you feel the lack of width of the cabin, and I don't consider this to be an incredible product, and I've said the same about the identical products on ITA Airways and Virgin Atlantic (both of which are brands I love); you're going to counter that with, "oh, but it's a suite," because there's a little door
-- Delta's A330ceos have tight reverse herringbone seats that are outdated, which are not as good as Polaris seats or as any of American's business class seats
Which of those points would you like to debate?
I'd just simply like you and others to provide data to debate your points. A seat is a tangible item and can be measured. You should be able to argue a specific statistic as the reason why something doesn't work.
And I have never said that DL's 767s are best in class. I do have a problem with the incessant "but Polaris is so great" (not from you but others) when it is clear that...
I'd just simply like you and others to provide data to debate your points. A seat is a tangible item and can be measured. You should be able to argue a specific statistic as the reason why something doesn't work.
And I have never said that DL's 767s are best in class. I do have a problem with the incessant "but Polaris is so great" (not from you but others) when it is clear that UA put more Polaris seats in the same space as other airlines put far fewer seats.
The 767 was never designed for the current generation of business class seats - which DL has embraced - on other aircraft. I have never argued otherwise.
And DL is more like the MAJORITY of global airlines that have remarkable diversity in its fleet; it just happens to have 767s which weren't flown by most other global airlines. UA has a better product on the 767 because of Polaris but their decision to have one business class seat across multiple fleet types leaves them in an inferior position on other aircraft including AA and DL's non-suite business class seats that offer more space per passenger than Polaris does.
If you think the 330CEO seats are dated, you should be able to back it up with data. Since multiple airlines use the same seat, it is hard to understand how you single out DL and not all of those airlines that use the same seat.
and if cabin width is really the issue, then AA and UA are and will be at a disadvantage because the A350 is and will be a wider aircraft than the 787; AA and UA will not have anywhere close to enough 777s left in their fleet w/ their new generation seat to make a difference. and the 330 IS a wider aircraft than 767s which includes UA's 767s. DL's 330 business class seats are wider than UA Polaris on the 767
My point is that you draw subjective lines between what you call acceptable and unacceptable and, when pushed to define those lines, you fall back to subjectivity and your biased perception.
Just define your metrics.
@ Tim Dunn -- There are so many incorrect claims here, I don't know where to start. So let me just pick this one -- "DL's 330 business class seats are wider than UA Polaris on the 767." Could you share your source?
According to Aerolopa, Delta's A330-200 business class seats are 19.7" wide, while United's 767-300ER business class seats are 20.6" wide.
https://www.aerolopa.com/ua-76l
https://www.aerolopa.com/dl-3m2
and, as I noted, even in objective measurements, you categorically act as if a single or even multiple metrics matters the most.
YOUR OPINION and how you WEIGH various factors is YOURS. NOBODY takes that away from you or anywhere else.
and, even WRT Polaris, you still can't justify that Polaris is a high density product. you argue that an extra less than an inch matters but having far more seats in the same space...
and, as I noted, even in objective measurements, you categorically act as if a single or even multiple metrics matters the most.
YOUR OPINION and how you WEIGH various factors is YOURS. NOBODY takes that away from you or anywhere else.
and, even WRT Polaris, you still can't justify that Polaris is a high density product. you argue that an extra less than an inch matters but having far more seats in the same space that other airlines have fewer seats doesn't matter.
Have the humility to admit that these are YOUR PREFERENCES and you and every one is free to your opinion. just state the facts and let people make their own judgments free from your derogatory assessments.
Again, no company consistently delivers the best at anything. They deliver what they believe matters to customers. If having a reputation for some of the worst food in the industry mattered to UA, they would upgrade their food. but they don't.
@ Tim Dunn -- Are you going to respond to my point? Because if not, then I'm done with this conversation. I'm happy to address any of your points, but I'm not wasting my time on a conversation where we're constantly shifting the claim to meet our narrative.
You can't claim I don't use objective measurements, then you make a claim that is inaccurate, then I refute that, and then you change the topic. So...
@ Tim Dunn -- Are you going to respond to my point? Because if not, then I'm done with this conversation. I'm happy to address any of your points, but I'm not wasting my time on a conversation where we're constantly shifting the claim to meet our narrative.
You can't claim I don't use objective measurements, then you make a claim that is inaccurate, then I refute that, and then you change the topic. So either please point out how I was wrong, or admit that you were wrong.
Of course he won’t respond, he’ll deflect and/or change the goal posts.
I replied to your point. You apparently don't like it
You subjectively apply subjective criteria and even when you use a metric, and think that everyone should weigh an inch here as more important than something else.
I would like you to address your own preferences as your own and recognize that people will prioritize even objective criteria in different ways - even before we get to subjective criteria such as service delivery and interpersonal...
I replied to your point. You apparently don't like it
You subjectively apply subjective criteria and even when you use a metric, and think that everyone should weigh an inch here as more important than something else.
I would like you to address your own preferences as your own and recognize that people will prioritize even objective criteria in different ways - even before we get to subjective criteria such as service delivery and interpersonal interactions which the commenter above noted is probably the most important thing for an airline.
You yourself noted that your expectations about service on Delta is different than AA and UA. that is subjective and you laid it out clearly.
Just do the same with other elements in which you think one carrier does better than other.
@ Tim Dunn -- Forgive me, there must be some horrible tech glitch on the blog. Where did you respond, on-topic, to my response to your claim that Delta's A330 business class seats are wider than United's 767 business class seats?
To people other than Tim, is there anything I'm missing here?
Ben,
you are absolutely correct that my statement comparing DL 330CEO seat width to UA's 767 seat width in business class is inaccurate.
But, in your victory lap, you refuse to acknowledge my larger point which is that people weigh EVEN OBJECTIVE FACTORS differently, let alone when we get into SUBJECTIVE FACTORS.
DL has committed to a refurbishment of its 330CEO fleet not because you said that the seat width is less than Polaris...
Ben,
you are absolutely correct that my statement comparing DL 330CEO seat width to UA's 767 seat width in business class is inaccurate.
But, in your victory lap, you refuse to acknowledge my larger point which is that people weigh EVEN OBJECTIVE FACTORS differently, let alone when we get into SUBJECTIVE FACTORS.
DL has committed to a refurbishment of its 330CEO fleet not because you said that the seat width is less than Polaris but because DL clearly recognizes the need to continue to invest in new and better products, all of which become dated.
You pick out seat width in Polaris while excluding that UA has no plans published right now to refurbish ANY existing aircraft which is markedly different than both AA and DL. Cabin density does matter and Polaris is one of the worst in the industry.
Further, the "consistency" of Polaris will wear very thin when Polaris I is still on the majority of the fleet and we will all just be hoping that UA will retire aircraft since they have no reasonable ability to refurbish large numbers of aircraft while also having such massive numbers of aircraft on order.
Just be humble enough to admit that people have different valuations of all kinds of service elements including pretty objective things such as seat width or cabin density. and then don't be so dogmatic about who "wins" and "loses" based on your perceived valuation of all of those elements.
and then in the absence of measurements including the footwell and other parts of the seat, simply build a chart noting the differences between each of the different seats - and then ultimately acknowledge that even objective elements of a seat are valued differently by different people which also highlights a need for a reminder of your size including foot size.
If you want to harp incessantly about a particular product, then you should...
and then in the absence of measurements including the footwell and other parts of the seat, simply build a chart noting the differences between each of the different seats - and then ultimately acknowledge that even objective elements of a seat are valued differently by different people which also highlights a need for a reminder of your size including foot size.
If you want to harp incessantly about a particular product, then you should be able to say why that product isn't acceptable in the market = not just that it isn't the best.
Nobody blames you, Ben. Dog knows we've all taken the bait. I feel you. But I won't let you pretend you didn't just feed a month's worth of caviar to a troll. The guy is a conditioned response mechanism. There's a big button, under a protective, hinged cover. By not lifting the cover, not pressing the button, we don't get (nearly as much) the noise.
Next time, a mantra in the mirror perhaps? Deep breathing?...
Nobody blames you, Ben. Dog knows we've all taken the bait. I feel you. But I won't let you pretend you didn't just feed a month's worth of caviar to a troll. The guy is a conditioned response mechanism. There's a big button, under a protective, hinged cover. By not lifting the cover, not pressing the button, we don't get (nearly as much) the noise.
Next time, a mantra in the mirror perhaps? Deep breathing? Look directly at a child for 30 seconds, before typing any reply to a troll?
Sorry you fell in this time. Happens to the bst of us.
There are people that resonate with what I wrote; the fact that it wasn't you doesn't make what I said irrelevant or from a troll.
Ben,
what I would like to challenge you to do is to use more objectivity in your assessment of airline products and services.
There is a whole lot of anecdotal "I think" or even more "I know based on my subjective experience" statements - but little of it...
There are people that resonate with what I wrote; the fact that it wasn't you doesn't make what I said irrelevant or from a troll.
Ben,
what I would like to challenge you to do is to use more objectivity in your assessment of airline products and services.
There is a whole lot of anecdotal "I think" or even more "I know based on my subjective experience" statements - but little of it is backed up by data.
I am more than willing to conceded a seat is wider than another - but, honestly, tell me how that less than 5% difference in seat width changes the ENTIRE product.
You write very good reviews. Publish your own list of factors that matter to you and then weigh them as part of an overall grading for the entire flight. Same for a hotel or any other type of service.
You should be able to articulate that seat width is worth X% of the total seat score while FA service is Y% and onground amenities (feel free to break them down) are worth a different percentage. and carry that out for every element of the service you review.
The point is to come up with a list of objective AND SUBJECTIVE criteria that doesn't change from one review to another.
Then, at the end of every review, you should be able to say I rate this flight an 87% or whatever number you come up based on the objective quantification of your reviews.
You have lots of travel experience. Nobody questions your perception. It is very reasonable to ask how you come to the conclusions you do when so much of what you write is based on subjective criteria; if seat cleanliness is worth no more than 10% of the review for ANY review, then it should be impossible for you to be able to rate a trip that included a dirty seat but flawless on every other issue as anything less than 90%.
just be objective and consistent from one review to another and spare us overhyping one thing or another to the exclusion of something.
Everyone can come up w/ their own ranking but you should be able to articulate WHY you rank something the way you do.
and, honestly, the personality of an executive has precisely ZERO to do with anything that impacts a customer regardless of the exec or company.
I think it’s time for Timmy to take another mandatory vacation.
unlike you, Ben is not only interested in other people's opinion but learns from it.
He has changed some of the things that he says about each of the big 3 over the course of time so he is smart enough to incorporate information that other people provide.
It is those who are not personally secure that want to shut down anyone's opinion that differs from their own.
that's not Ben
Tim - you have a sad, irrelevant, pathetic life. Nobody likes you. Look in the mirror and fix yourself.
Don’t say that. Unlike Tim’s posts, this is absolutely not true. He has a wife who goes to dinner with him. Also a friend.
And Ben is also able to call you out on your misinformation and get you to admit you’re wrong. Something nobody else can do. It helps that only he can ban you again.
Now if only someone else can get you to admit that UA gets more airline revenue than DL and is a more profitable airline operation than the one DL runs. Final numbers changed thanks to DL’s ability to get more credit...
And Ben is also able to call you out on your misinformation and get you to admit you’re wrong. Something nobody else can do. It helps that only he can ban you again.
Now if only someone else can get you to admit that UA gets more airline revenue than DL and is a more profitable airline operation than the one DL runs. Final numbers changed thanks to DL’s ability to get more credit card revenue, something that UA will certainly change with their next agreement with Chase.
ben is able to cherrypick data just like you.
no one is going to admit that some worthless metric matters because it proves that UA has failed to take advantage of EVERY opportunity that DL has taken.
one more time since you are as hard as bedrock - UA flies 10% more ASMs and burns a comparable amount more fuel and generates far less than 10% more passenger revenue- the metric YOU want to...
ben is able to cherrypick data just like you.
no one is going to admit that some worthless metric matters because it proves that UA has failed to take advantage of EVERY opportunity that DL has taken.
one more time since you are as hard as bedrock - UA flies 10% more ASMs and burns a comparable amount more fuel and generates far less than 10% more passenger revenue- the metric YOU want to fixate on.
The US airline industry has been deregulated for UA the same time it has been for DL.
DL was smart enough to figure out that 3X/week summer seasonal service to Mongolia and a bunch of Portuguese islands matter far less than being 33% larger in NYC and almost the same in LAX.
DL has focused on the things that matter; that is hardly hubris. That is winning. And you can't admit that your "smart guy" has been outsmarted by a team that could care less about bragging and cares about delivering.
When you fly 33% more flights from NYC you can deliver a whole lot more than your next closest competitor - that is FAR BACK in the rearview mirror.
33% more flights in NYC? lol
Where do you even find this stupid stuff? 18% more flights by Delta but the same total seats. So while you seem to love bringing up fuel usage (a topic which you know so little about why the two fuel usages are different), you ignore that Delta has to fly 18% more seats to SIMPLY equal United in seats. Why? Because Delta can't fill planes at a hub like...
33% more flights in NYC? lol
Where do you even find this stupid stuff? 18% more flights by Delta but the same total seats. So while you seem to love bringing up fuel usage (a topic which you know so little about why the two fuel usages are different), you ignore that Delta has to fly 18% more seats to SIMPLY equal United in seats. Why? Because Delta can't fill planes at a hub like EWR can and does.
Also, do you remember our chats about how the industry works? Capacity is considered the size dimension in the airline industry. United is 22% larger than Delta in New York.
Find a mirror, pal. Better yet, find actual data. You don't seem to know how to do math.
It's kinda sad that the United States of America can't produce an airline that can compete with Singapore, EVA, Starlux, Japan, ANA on longhaul passenger experience. I know the explanations: unions, management, government, someone else, third parties, not our fault, etc etc.
Doesn't it all come down to culture though? Can an American person really get down on their knees to talk to a seated passenger and take pride in doing it well, being the...
It's kinda sad that the United States of America can't produce an airline that can compete with Singapore, EVA, Starlux, Japan, ANA on longhaul passenger experience. I know the explanations: unions, management, government, someone else, third parties, not our fault, etc etc.
Doesn't it all come down to culture though? Can an American person really get down on their knees to talk to a seated passenger and take pride in doing it well, being the best? The Jennifer Aniston Emirates ad ("where's the shower?") exemplifies this issue.
I love the idea of a disruptor proving us all wrong, using American entrepreneurship, energy and capital to actually do the impossible: create an American high-service airline. It'll take more than lounges, sundaes and a points program.
It'll take humility. The world waits.
good points but the real issue is that the US has the largest airline market in the world and the federal government has created layers of requirements for travel to be affordable to the masses.
The US is one of the few large developed economies that has virtually no intercity travel systems other than commercial airplanes and cars.
add in that US airlines -partially a result of the above average penetration of organized labor...
good points but the real issue is that the US has the largest airline market in the world and the federal government has created layers of requirements for travel to be affordable to the masses.
The US is one of the few large developed economies that has virtually no intercity travel systems other than commercial airplanes and cars.
add in that US airlines -partially a result of the above average penetration of organized labor in the US airline industry - pay the most for labor of any airline in the world and high labor costs and an unwillingness to focus on quality because doing so is contrary to union "full employment" strategies and US airlines are never going to compete with other countries' airlines.
And the vast majority of Americans DO NOT want someone on their knees and even fewer Americans are willing to deliver that kind of service.
the airline industry worldwide is about schedules and fares and US airlines more than deliver on the metrics that consumers say matter the most.
Anyone persuaded by this? Is it an endorsement of my comment? A rebuttal? It kinda lost me after "the real issue".
The only thing I am persuaded by is that any time Lucky publishes an article on the US airlines, and alarm goes off on Ed Bastian’s phone where he thinks “Unleash the Kraken…”.
They aren’t “ on their knees”. It’s simply being respectful and coming down to the level of the customer who is seated as opposed to talking down to them.
What’s true is that the US as a whole lacks a comprehensive and efficient rail network.
With a few exceptions, it’s simply not an option.
Overall the US rail system is antiquated and light years behind most industrialised countries.
A train from LA...
They aren’t “ on their knees”. It’s simply being respectful and coming down to the level of the customer who is seated as opposed to talking down to them.
What’s true is that the US as a whole lacks a comprehensive and efficient rail network.
With a few exceptions, it’s simply not an option.
Overall the US rail system is antiquated and light years behind most industrialised countries.
A train from LA - San Diego takes 3-4 hrs covering 200kms. Paris to Lyon takes 2-3 hrs covering approximately 470kms. And Madrid to Barcelona 2h30mins,with over 30 trains daily, covering 630kms.
You forgot Milan-Rome which is 2.5 hrs covering 500kms with over 90 trains daily
The idea of ice cream sundaes as luxury is just so embarrassing, and so emblematic of US airlines' existential failings. Treating their passengers like children, and coddling America's obesity epidemic, all while appealing to nostalgia while failing to innovate.
And delta offering a burger in first lol believing it’s premium versus AF La Premiere.
Hey now, you can have a premium burger on a plane. Not on DL, no, but the burgers on ANA and Cathay Pacific are actually pretty good.
LOL ... Yes, we do want our 'Shake Shack' burgers in FIRST class, thank you !
... Just look at our diet, public food options and resultant waist lines & expensive health issues ... :(
As for AA: most annoying for me is how they are handling the "rolling delay". Changing the display every 10-15 min, sometimes for hours. No explanation as to why it is happening.
American has no vision 100%. Partner wise your options to Europe are American or British Airways. Those grumpy middle aged gate agents with attitudes at PHL and JFK yikes.
Delta ; I was shocked to see their new terminal at LAX was basically better retail space and the same old floors. 10 yrs ago there were flashy artist renderings of a new terminal coming for 1.5 billion. BS.
United : I’m just happy...
American has no vision 100%. Partner wise your options to Europe are American or British Airways. Those grumpy middle aged gate agents with attitudes at PHL and JFK yikes.
Delta ; I was shocked to see their new terminal at LAX was basically better retail space and the same old floors. 10 yrs ago there were flashy artist renderings of a new terminal coming for 1.5 billion. BS.
United : I’m just happy to be escaping American Airlines prison and am currently in the honeymoon phase . $287 for a seat in bulkhead economy anyone ?
T3 at LAX was entirely demolished from the ground up therefore it cannot be the same floors.
While I know you’d never book a basic economy ticket ;) one of worst thing about United is no proper carry on (without status or credit card)
Then don't book basic economy? A more valid complaint would be ticket pricing (accounting for selecting regular economy), but it's not as if they obfuscate the terms of that ticket and what restrictions it carries.
Agree 100% with Ben. That said, I find service across all three very inconsistent, but the best chance for bad service and lousy 767s in my experience is DL transatlantic out of JFK. Great Delta One club but more often than not awful in the air ( like Virgin Atlantic, great on the ground, not so much in the air). UA route network and partners are great but service inconsistent. Pet peeve for DL….the emails...
Agree 100% with Ben. That said, I find service across all three very inconsistent, but the best chance for bad service and lousy 767s in my experience is DL transatlantic out of JFK. Great Delta One club but more often than not awful in the air ( like Virgin Atlantic, great on the ground, not so much in the air). UA route network and partners are great but service inconsistent. Pet peeve for DL….the emails with their specials usually all in basic economy and the skypeso earning DL reserve card….I don’t use it except for the Bogo first class ticket each year. Find the AF card from BofA does much better…1.5 miles on all purchases, 3 miles for ANY SkyTeam airline purchase…and AF/KL has great specials each month even in business class
I would say a bigger issue with MileagePlus is their exclusivity agreements. UA has been throwing their weight around to affect *A redemptions on all carriers (eg Thai effectively does not offer awards on programs other than UA), and I've heard rumors that they've asked other programs to raise award prices in return for still getting UA availability (see AC starting to do dynamic UA partner awards)
I definitely agree with the majority of your ratings for these airlines. I agree that Delta is definitely above American and United, and you expect to have a better experience. In my opinion, there is also a difference between the service provided on American and United. American is usually average service, usually the flight attendants are in a good mood and seem happy, or at least fine being there. On United, it is very inconsistent....
I definitely agree with the majority of your ratings for these airlines. I agree that Delta is definitely above American and United, and you expect to have a better experience. In my opinion, there is also a difference between the service provided on American and United. American is usually average service, usually the flight attendants are in a good mood and seem happy, or at least fine being there. On United, it is very inconsistent. In my experience, it seems there is a 20% chance of having a good experience, 80% chance of being disappointed.
The number of issues I’ve had with United over the years is far above any other airline, even though I fly them less than other airlines. From overbooked premium plus seats, to forgetting to load my special meal on nearly half my flights, there is a high chance I’ll need to contact customer care afterwards, which I’ve never had to do with any other airline under these circumstances.
I know many people that love United, but at least for now, I can say that they are one of my least favorite airlines to fly on, due to their lack of service. Their Polaris seats are nice, but the service does not even match that of Southwest.
United doesn't fly to Bangkok or Ulanbaataar, Lucky. Tag-on services via NRT and HKG don't count.
@ Gaurav -- So fifth freedom service doesn't count as flying? That's... an interesting take.
They aren't the same as nonstop flights, and aren't relevant in the discussion of route networks.
So with that logic, if you connect through a major hub, it doesn’t count because it’s not a nonstop flight? Huh…..
No, but US airline route networks are only valid for nonstop travel from somewhere in the US. There's nothing impressive about a 737 route from Narita, or a 787 tag-on from HKG. Especially not in the case of BKK/SGN, when CX/TG/EK and even VN offer a superior passenger experience to United, usually at a lower cost.
Guarav, if those flights don’t matter and are so easy to operate, why don’t AA and DL operate them.
You’re also ignoring that, even without those fifth freedom flights, UA is significantly bigger internationally than DL and AA. Bigger across the Pacific than DL and AA combined. Bigger from the US to Australia than Qantas.
Your incessant diatribes on the US3 is ridiculous......if you do not like any of them, Don't Fly them or spew your BS. Just because AA doesn't have seatback videos across their fleet doesn't relegate them to ULCC status. Did you ever consider they didn't want to ADD to their Debt Load to install videos to allow passengers to enjoy a movie they may have seen 3x already. They have wifi/entertainment options......You just do not like...
Your incessant diatribes on the US3 is ridiculous......if you do not like any of them, Don't Fly them or spew your BS. Just because AA doesn't have seatback videos across their fleet doesn't relegate them to ULCC status. Did you ever consider they didn't want to ADD to their Debt Load to install videos to allow passengers to enjoy a movie they may have seen 3x already. They have wifi/entertainment options......You just do not like the options. Delta has seatback videos.....do you how many times I have dealt with faulty IFE Systems on Delta or UAL for that matter, boo hoo hoo Fn hoo. United flies to very far flung places but struggles domestically to service many of the places where US Residents live yet they want to take you to Greenland.............laughable. These are very large Companies that cannot be Everything to Everyone and especially to a marketplace that demands cheap affordable fares with expectations of Inflight Service dating back to the 1970s. You are so GD out of touch with REALISTIC Expectations in Today's World that YOU are the real "ISSUE". I have ISSUES with You.
@ alain -- That's quite a rant, so let me just address your first sentence. "Your incessant diatribes on the US3 is ridiculous......if you do not like any of them, Don't Fly them or spew your BS."
I literally just wrote three posts about all the things they do well, and then I wrote one post about the things that they don't do well, and that makes me somehow not like them, and you're telling me not to fly them?
I "have issues" with the rudeness of this post.
@Alain
Thanks for reminding me it’s time to take my meds.
ATL ORD yesterday due to ops issues, handled well, no water service even nothing. 5 and a half hours on an airplane without water leaving ATL on time maintenance issue returned to the gate, they fixed what they needed to fix. Tarmac delays in ATL and then no service due to air turbulence. Horrible. yeah the plane is nice DELTA, maybe cannot fault the crew. But there should be a procedure to give a bottle...
ATL ORD yesterday due to ops issues, handled well, no water service even nothing. 5 and a half hours on an airplane without water leaving ATL on time maintenance issue returned to the gate, they fixed what they needed to fix. Tarmac delays in ATL and then no service due to air turbulence. Horrible. yeah the plane is nice DELTA, maybe cannot fault the crew. But there should be a procedure to give a bottle of water. No one at least will leave thirsty. if you can serve your biscoff cookie great if not not the end of the world. No GF snack in main cabin. Used to be. Sounds like nothing but again not going to pay premium to fly delta anymore.
Delta ground/phone agents are not better than UA or AA. I would say you have the same mixed bag there. Inflight they are slightly better on average and that is all.
Whether right or wrong, if I’m flying Delta, I generally expect good service, and am disappointed if I don’t get it. Meanwhile if I’m flying American or United, I don’t expect much, and I’m delighted if I do get excellent service.
You just validated why DL carries more corporate passengers, generates more revenue than any other airline in the world, can afford to LEAD the industry in increasing employee compensation, and remain unrivaled in profitability...
Whether right or wrong, if I’m flying Delta, I generally expect good service, and am disappointed if I don’t get it. Meanwhile if I’m flying American or United, I don’t expect much, and I’m delighted if I do get excellent service.
You just validated why DL carries more corporate passengers, generates more revenue than any other airline in the world, can afford to LEAD the industry in increasing employee compensation, and remain unrivaled in profitability and service metrics of the big 4 - not by keyboard warriors but in real customer-driven rankings.
DL execs don't compare themselves to other airlines because they and Wall Street knows they are at the top of the industry. DL compares itself to the best consumer brands and can demonstrate the value of the Delta brand to companies like Apple, not American or United.
I love Delta too, Tim.
I’m glad you do, Other Julia.
Of course the next sentence was "Delta is slightly better than the competition. Delta management not only knows that, but in my opinion management thinks they’re better by a bigger margin than they actually are."
I don't think that corporate travel managers are choosing DL versus UA based on levels of customer service. I think they are choosing DL/UA versus AA because AA completely abandoned that market for reasons passing common sense understanding. And they...
Of course the next sentence was "Delta is slightly better than the competition. Delta management not only knows that, but in my opinion management thinks they’re better by a bigger margin than they actually are."
I don't think that corporate travel managers are choosing DL versus UA based on levels of customer service. I think they are choosing DL/UA versus AA because AA completely abandoned that market for reasons passing common sense understanding. And they are choosing between DL and UA based on price and routes.
I do disagree that hubris is a disadvantage though (although if I was a full time travel professional I'd agree with the take) - it's a really big advantage when people show up for work thinking that you're #1. It creates a culture of actually being #1. And it creates a big perception gap between DL and UA/AA and allows DL to have an aura of being premium, even though I've had plenty of times where I received fantastic AA service/food and poor DL service/food.
The 767s are such a good family of 4 plane in economy though, where most people fly. Get two pairs of 2 by the window and enjoy the ride. Won't be exactly nostalgic for them once they are phased out (this isn't the 747 folks) but I'm not offended by them. I am offended when cabins are not maintained (AA's 321T, cough cough).
I like how you still refuse to address how the 767 J seats are horrendous, and now your spin is "but service is better". I bet you that for any long haul or redeye flights, people largely prefer a great seat over terrible service if they have that sad choice to make.
Also passengers don't care about DL's bottom line, their execs, or how they think about themselves so that's mostly irrelevant.
Delta management is high on its own supply. Pride goeth before the fall and all that…
you mean you HOPE that DL will fall. Not an unheard of phenomena for the entity at the top of the heap - whether we are talking about sports or national strength.
And yet it is UA execs that continually trash their competitors - except DL, who UA execs desperately try to put themselves into the same category as DL.
.... and Icarus flew too close to the sun ...,.