Update: United Airlines is now claiming these India job postings were an error.
Look, I’m not usually someone who is particularly against the concept of outsourcing, because I think it’s part of a global economy. But the way that United Airlines is outsourcing right now — at a time when the airline is accepting billions of dollars from taxpayers — is absolutely stunning, in my opinion.
In this post:
United has been laying off management employees
As we know, all major US airlines are currently cutting their workforces due to reduced demand. Last I heard, United Airlines is cutting about 30% of its management positions.
Keep in mind that the airline isn’t able to lay off any employees through September 30, 2020, given that the airline received billions of dollars in aid through the CARES Act. This was explicitly intended to preserve American jobs — airlines could lay off foreign workers, but couldn’t lay off American workers.
Airlines have benefited from this greatly, and they’re even hoping for an extension of the CARES Act, so that taxpayers foot virtually the entire airline payroll for another six months.
If it doesn’t happen otherwise, President Trump is considering an executive order to avoid mass airline layoffs. After all, he has an agenda of “America First,” and wants to preserve American jobs.
How does United Airlines feel about that?
United is reducing its management headcount by 30%
United is now hiring for these roles in India
As mentioned above, United Airlines is eliminating about 30% of management positions at the company, through a combination of voluntary packages and involuntary furloughs.
Well, there’s some great news on that front. United Airlines is once again hiring for many of the same management positions that have just been vacated. Isn’t that fantastic?!
Well, not so fast… the airline is now hiring for these jobs in India. If you go to United Airlines’ job search page, you’ll see the company is hiring for several management positions in Gurgaon, India. Some of these roles include the following:
- Analyst, Network Planning
- Senior Analyst, Network Planning
- Senior Analyst, Revenue Strategy
- Manager, Revenue Strategy
- Senior Manager, Sales Program
The terms specifically state the following:
“This position is offered on local terms and conditions. Expatriate assignments and sponsorship for employment visas, even on a time-limited visa status, will not be awarded.”
As noted by @xJonNYC:
“It’s becoming evident that United Airlines is taking this opportunity to immediately replace laid off American workers with low-paid new hires in Gurgaon India. Positions that have been eliminated in Chicago often show up on the careers site days or weeks later with the same job title but based in India.”
I wonder how the President/other politicians feel about this?
"It’s becoming evident that United Airlines is taking this opportunity to immediately replace laid off American workers with low-paid new hires in Gurgaon India.
Positions that have been eliminated in Chicago often..— ˜”*° JonNYC °*”˜ (@xJonNYC) August 26, 2020
Bottom line
Like I said, I’m not in general opposed to the concept of US airlines opening up offices abroad and hiring lower paid workers. Actually, I had no clue that United had management positions in India that weren’t IT/contact center related, and I find that really interesting.
What I am opposed to is US airlines taking tens of billions of dollars in taxpayer dollars in order to “save US jobs,” then asking for another six month extension, and all the while laying off US based workers and immediately replacing them with workers in India.
That’s not cool.
TOLD
YOU
@Ray
I don’t want this to devolve into a political back and forth and loose the focus on what is going on with peoples livelihood. But, did you even read the statement by Goodyear regarding your closing remarks?? If not here’s a link for you: https://twitter.com/goodyear/status/1296111292827283462
You had a person who is supposedly “leading” this country continue to gaslight on conspiracies like this while people are dying from COVID-19 and unemployed. Finally, I have NO...
@Ray
I don’t want this to devolve into a political back and forth and loose the focus on what is going on with peoples livelihood. But, did you even read the statement by Goodyear regarding your closing remarks?? If not here’s a link for you: https://twitter.com/goodyear/status/1296111292827283462
You had a person who is supposedly “leading” this country continue to gaslight on conspiracies like this while people are dying from COVID-19 and unemployed. Finally, I have NO IDEA why you even brought up BLM as a comparison? Do you buy into the comments of “very fine people on both sides too”?
@Nin69
Goodyear has acknowledged it was done but by a branch and not corporate. If you understood my point, you have a President on Twitter recommending a boycott of an American company that immediately had a 5+% drop in stock that morning. Jobs at risk because the moron is hurt his swag isn’t allowed but BLM is ok.
What are you talking about? False claim?
@Ray
Well, if you read the statement made by Goodyear clearly stating it was a false claim made against a Goodyear. Then, there is no need in perpetuating a false claim.
Absolutely UA wants to offshore everywhere they can and in this case they were able to get a bucket of cash via Federal Taxes that US Citizens to do this dirty deed. So, get money from the Federal Government - check, tell...
@Ray
Well, if you read the statement made by Goodyear clearly stating it was a false claim made against a Goodyear. Then, there is no need in perpetuating a false claim.
Absolutely UA wants to offshore everywhere they can and in this case they were able to get a bucket of cash via Federal Taxes that US Citizens to do this dirty deed. So, get money from the Federal Government - check, tell employees you are taking a 20% or more pay cut and reduce hours - check, realizing a smoke & mirrors opportunity to “creating jobs” heading to India after they give the boot to US based staff.
So you are 100% correct right now makes the most sense to do this, get bailout money meant to save US jobs, pocket it, fire folks and set up shop in India. WINNING!!!
@KK13, Unlike with the bank or auto bailout, the US taxpayer has not received any equity in the airlines. The equity received in the GM bailout offset the bailout costs and preserved an important company and many jobs. So no, the airlines are not pseudo-nationalized. They are just receiving money with few strings attached, ostensibly to keep people employed. But if these people won’t be needed for years, it doesn’t make sense.
Given the Fed...
@KK13, Unlike with the bank or auto bailout, the US taxpayer has not received any equity in the airlines. The equity received in the GM bailout offset the bailout costs and preserved an important company and many jobs. So no, the airlines are not pseudo-nationalized. They are just receiving money with few strings attached, ostensibly to keep people employed. But if these people won’t be needed for years, it doesn’t make sense.
Given the Fed has pushed interest rates to extremely low levels, the airlines should tap debt markets rather than government bailouts.
@Janet: "Unless we are prepared to have airlines nationalized,..."
I agree and I get your point, but aren't the big 3 pseudo-nationalized already with the amount taxpayers have paid them to get them out of misery? Not once, but twice!! And what they do - stock buyback or offshore jobs to cut costs (in practice) -- we are trying to survive because government is not helping us (on paper).
Why would the gov help so...
@Janet: "Unless we are prepared to have airlines nationalized,..."
I agree and I get your point, but aren't the big 3 pseudo-nationalized already with the amount taxpayers have paid them to get them out of misery? Not once, but twice!! And what they do - stock buyback or offshore jobs to cut costs (in practice) -- we are trying to survive because government is not helping us (on paper).
Why would the gov help so many time in a capitalist economy? Every time the auto or airline industries falter, taxpayers have to bail them out - how's that not for socialism for them capitalists crying out loud?
@Nino69, I don’t think we disagree to the extent that the current Senate and Administration have failed to deal appropriately with the pandemic and respond in a way that both protects citizens and prevents economic disaster. The tri-state area, which suffered significantly in part because it was early in the Pandemic and the learning curve was steep, has shown a relatively constructive way out. No packed bars but kids will return to school at least...
@Nino69, I don’t think we disagree to the extent that the current Senate and Administration have failed to deal appropriately with the pandemic and respond in a way that both protects citizens and prevents economic disaster. The tri-state area, which suffered significantly in part because it was early in the Pandemic and the learning curve was steep, has shown a relatively constructive way out. No packed bars but kids will return to school at least through a hybrid model. New infections and deaths have fallen sharply, but people still understand prevention.
I can’t condemn or condone United’s decision to move jobs offshore. They need to cut costs to survive. Unless we are prepared to have airlines nationalized, I don’t think the government should support jobs at the airlines that are likely not needed for several more years. Private companies need to operate in the interests of shareholders, and the waters are muddied when the government throws money at them. The airlines are certainly not the first to outsource jobs. The largest office of the bank I used to work for was in India, and it was not an Indian company. HR functions were in the Philippines as was IT support.
As consumers and shareholders we can decide to either not buy a product if we don’t like the employment policies and as shareholders we can sell the shares (not sure why anyone would buy shares in an airline). The reality is offshoring of jobs in certain areas is likely to continue.
At this point those of us who think there is a better response to the economic and health crisis than the current government has provided can only do our best to ensure change in Washington come November. I would prefer to see extra unemployment insurance and cash payments to low-income workers and as the air clears more investment in education including community college and vocational programs.
As someone above pointed out, it is a matter of time before automation and ML/AI will do most jobs.
This is capitalism at its finest.
Remote working jobs just made it a lot easier to hire cheaper labor.
Families of laid of workers in USA will be sad. Families of new employees in India will celebrate.
We win some
They win some
Management always win, even in downsizing.
The question...
As someone above pointed out, it is a matter of time before automation and ML/AI will do most jobs.
This is capitalism at its finest.
Remote working jobs just made it a lot easier to hire cheaper labor.
Families of laid of workers in USA will be sad. Families of new employees in India will celebrate.
We win some
They win some
Management always win, even in downsizing.
The question is,
How many of you will boycott United for doing this?
I will, i dislike them anyways.
So my bias against Ben is well known. I don’t like him personally and I think his takes are generally way off the mark.
He is 1000% correct here.
I am one of the M&A employees being let go at the end of September. While my RIF notice says COVID at the same time I got the notice UA listed a half dozen positions in India that were in my department. Over the past...
So my bias against Ben is well known. I don’t like him personally and I think his takes are generally way off the mark.
He is 1000% correct here.
I am one of the M&A employees being let go at the end of September. While my RIF notice says COVID at the same time I got the notice UA listed a half dozen positions in India that were in my department. Over the past few weeks I have been asked to train my Indian replacement.
My responsibilities included working with US based vendors, that are now going to be harder to work with due to the time difference. My job was not an IT job, I was more evaluating potential business opportunities with in my line of business.
No I’m not happy. I had a decent job at another airline, and was recruited to UA. Now Iam going to be unemployed because salaries are lower in India.
FYI I work at UA, a starting position title is Senior Analyst at Willis, I know surprised me also, there is no junior analyst, So the majority of those positions are where you start.
Interesting to read the comments about protecting American jobs based on bailout money from taxpayers days after an American President tweets to boycott Goodyear because a plant won’t allow his swag being worn. Are all of you so outraged at his behavior that you posted on other sites? Face it, United would have moved these positions eventually so now makes the most sense.
KPM,
With regard to US airline corporate structure, analysts and senior analysts are indeed classified as management. Director and above are referred to as leadership roles though they are also management by definition. I retired two years ago after a 32 year career as a senior analyst at AA HDQ.
Cheers
@Vikrant offended much?..and no India is not even close to being the next China..try harder
@Janet
Thanks for your response and please allow me respond accordingly. You said “I think it will be a while before business travel and big conventions return, at least 2-4 years. So airlines need to scale back their operations.” Couldn’t agree more but, rub on what UA is doing is saying these jobs are important but, not important enough to be filled by US workers.
I’ve been in this industry for over 30 years...
@Janet
Thanks for your response and please allow me respond accordingly. You said “I think it will be a while before business travel and big conventions return, at least 2-4 years. So airlines need to scale back their operations.” Couldn’t agree more but, rub on what UA is doing is saying these jobs are important but, not important enough to be filled by US workers.
I’ve been in this industry for over 30 years and I’ve seen the corrections and the cyclic nature of the industry and the binging and purging of seat capacity during the ups and downs. Until the unemployment rate stabilizes trying to figure out what industry to retrain is a moving target. Your last three areas healthcare, clean energy and education have been completely gutted by our current leadership. Healthcare cuts to limit care and enrich insurance companies who is going go down that road for anew career? Clean energy? Let me answer that by this “Clean Coal and deregulation”. Education?? Sure, let’s send teachers and students back to school with no plan. What I’m trying to say is I would be more than supportive of investments being made in each of these sectors giving folks the opportunity to grow in these expanding fields if leadership actually took each of them seriously.
Again couldn’t agree more to your comment “Give it to those who need it most.” but what have we seen? Lethargic response by the Senate to pass a bill that was sent to them well before the expiration of the added unemployment compensation. Now it’s up to the states to make up for it.
UA should have thought about this to save the these critical jobs in the US before sending them to the India office that has been growing like gangbusters.
@Nino69, what has happened is horrific, and as you note, our country has mishandled this. But you can see the countries that have successfully kept cases low are the ones that have shut out the rest of the world. We are all hopeful that a vaccine will help, given 50% protection will be viewed as adequate, I think it will be a while before business travel and big conventions return, at least 2-4 years. So...
@Nino69, what has happened is horrific, and as you note, our country has mishandled this. But you can see the countries that have successfully kept cases low are the ones that have shut out the rest of the world. We are all hopeful that a vaccine will help, given 50% protection will be viewed as adequate, I think it will be a while before business travel and big conventions return, at least 2-4 years. So airlines need to scale back their operations.
Global air travel has grown substantially in recent years, so it is a matter of rolling back to where we were. As for what people retrain for, obviously the tech industry has continued to grow, with many sub categories expanding . Healthcare will also keep growing. Clean energy. Hopefully as a country we will realize the need to invest in early childhood education and pay our teachers living wages. We need to develop new areas of support for community safety.
Rather than bailing out an industry in need of restructuring, the money would be better spent on expanded unemployment benefits for all and perhaps another cash handout to low income Americans. We have already seen it had an immediate positive impact on the economy. Give it to those who need it most.
@Janet
Wow, you must be a supporter of the tone deaf “Find Something New” campaign. Really, a blacksmith reference why didn’t you pile on a buggy whip maker too? Are you telling all of us the airline industry is going away unless they offshore every possible job with the bailout money I pay in Federal Taxes??
We had a failure of leadership at the highest level that caused this pandemic to impact every one...
@Janet
Wow, you must be a supporter of the tone deaf “Find Something New” campaign. Really, a blacksmith reference why didn’t you pile on a buggy whip maker too? Are you telling all of us the airline industry is going away unless they offshore every possible job with the bailout money I pay in Federal Taxes??
We had a failure of leadership at the highest level that caused this pandemic to impact every one of us in the United States and cause this massive unemployment in all sectors not just airlines. So, along those lines with record high unemployment what jobs pray tell Are they supposed to “retrain” for? I’ll wait for your response.
A president that breaks laws weekly and a congress that can't seem to do any real oversight... yeah nothing real is going to happen here against UA. Just like Facebook and Twitter they'll yell at the executives a bit and then let them skate.
Airlines are in a fight for survival. There is no point in the government postponing the inevitable with more bailout money. Airlines need to downsize and cut costs massively. If as a global enterprise that means using some lower cost workers in India, so be it. Hundreds of large US companies from banks to retailers outsource jobs to India and the Philippines. People working in the airline industry are going to have to retrain for...
Airlines are in a fight for survival. There is no point in the government postponing the inevitable with more bailout money. Airlines need to downsize and cut costs massively. If as a global enterprise that means using some lower cost workers in India, so be it. Hundreds of large US companies from banks to retailers outsource jobs to India and the Philippines. People working in the airline industry are going to have to retrain for new jobs just like many people have in the past when industries changed. How many blacksmiths do you know? It is unfortunate, but we need to deal with the consequences of Covid, not deny it.
To all the commentators and Ben...how many of you received the $1,200 or less stimulus check and how many of you actually needed it? I won’t be surprised if majority didn’t and yet you took that. Government gave it to spend and inject it in the economy, but how many saved/paid debt?I know, I did that. Even though optics of what UA is doing is not good, every company and every individual does it...no one...
To all the commentators and Ben...how many of you received the $1,200 or less stimulus check and how many of you actually needed it? I won’t be surprised if majority didn’t and yet you took that. Government gave it to spend and inject it in the economy, but how many saved/paid debt?I know, I did that. Even though optics of what UA is doing is not good, every company and every individual does it...no one refuses free money. So please stop being a hypocrite. The issue is not what UA is doing, companies have been doing it for decades in US - tax payer/employee subsidized plants, warehouses, sports stadiums. If that’s all acceptable then why isn’t this?
@ Les Czapansky
You are correct the UA office in India does a lot of work with a heavy emphasis on finance. UA, well before the pandemic, has been offshoring every possible finance job they could where feasible. Cost cutting was Scott’s main goal in the capacity growth a year ago in the ever present “do more with less”. And before you think I belong to a CBA you are WRONG!!!
If these jobs...
@ Les Czapansky
You are correct the UA office in India does a lot of work with a heavy emphasis on finance. UA, well before the pandemic, has been offshoring every possible finance job they could where feasible. Cost cutting was Scott’s main goal in the capacity growth a year ago in the ever present “do more with less”. And before you think I belong to a CBA you are WRONG!!!
If these jobs were so mission critical to the global presence UA has then why were the positions considered redundant in CSC but not in a country where salaries at well below US? Oh, question asked question answered.
Listen, if I’m going to pay my Federal Taxes and those dollars are used to help keep US companies afloat I’ll be DAMMED if I am going to see a US Airline employee loose their job just so Scott, Brett, Kate, Linda, Gerry, Andrew won’t miss a dime of their comp package by showing Wall Street “Gee look how we saved money” knowing it was done on the backs of former UA teammates.
So, spare me your Fake News BS because people who have a baseless argument seem to fallback to that line...sound like anyone you know...
The global economy is bad at this point for America and most Americans. More and more jobs will be outsourced overseas as the years go by. All these new work from home employees will get replaced too. If they can work from home in America you better believe a cheaper person in a foreign country can do that same job. Manufacturing jobs were outsourced for the most part, soon service jobs will be outsourced as well.
Forget about Americans or Indians, at least these jobs are still going to humans.
Within a decade, these data-heavy analyst jobs will be replaced by AI.
You may still need humans to review / verify the findings, not to mention decision making, but the labor intensive number crunching currently done by analysts will be no more, and with that, the senior manager that manages the analysts.
I honestly think most companies that goes all in with outsourcing is doing it for marketing where the CEOs wants to look like they saved $$$$ until the reality of the paperwork comes in and by then the CEO is long gone. Having worked closely on a daily basis with outsourced management and IT types I can tell you it's one cluster show after another. They are soooo incredibly bad at what they do. They...
I honestly think most companies that goes all in with outsourcing is doing it for marketing where the CEOs wants to look like they saved $$$$ until the reality of the paperwork comes in and by then the CEO is long gone. Having worked closely on a daily basis with outsourced management and IT types I can tell you it's one cluster show after another. They are soooo incredibly bad at what they do. They try to tell you they are experts in field xyz. They are not. They tell you they understood every instruction you gave them. They do not. I had some developers tell me they are java experts but after 3 questions from me I knew they didn't know a thing about java. They were counting on me being a manager and not know the technology. So when they realized I couldn't be snow they changed their tune. It's shameful.
I cornered an outsourced exec once and asked how he can give me a team of dummies like this and he acknowledged to me that the team cannot function unless I tell them exactly what to do to the degree of: step 1, turn on your computer. Step 2 log in with your own ID and not your colleague's ID which you shouldn't be doing anyway. Step 3 open Microsoft excel and type this phrase into cell A1. etc. Who the heck has the time to do that. If you say anything in general terms like "make sure you take this new source code and overwrite the old one" you'll get back an email that says "where should I copy the file to" and then after you pick your jaw off the ground you tell them the exact computer, drive and filename. And then you still have a 50/50 chance they'll screw it up.
Now imagine doing your own work and having to baby sit knuckleheads like that on a daily basis. Think how much extra work you have. It's not just a few people like this. 98% of the those I have worked with behaved in the same way.
Its one thing if this was about producing the next tictok video. But we're talking about aviation so there is always an element of passenger safety. I would not trust any outsourcing from India dictating that. There is a reason why Air India is the way it is.
@JD Keeping miles in Ultimate rewardfs, Membership Rewards, et al is always a good strategy. A mile will always be worth a mile regardless of whether a partner dilutes the value of their program. You can spend it someplace else.
@Rich I only wish the economics worked out that way(legitimately speaking). Our company's primary line of business is providing the conduit for USA Corporations and Retailers outsource production to the Pacific Rim, often China which...
@JD Keeping miles in Ultimate rewardfs, Membership Rewards, et al is always a good strategy. A mile will always be worth a mile regardless of whether a partner dilutes the value of their program. You can spend it someplace else.
@Rich I only wish the economics worked out that way(legitimately speaking). Our company's primary line of business is providing the conduit for USA Corporations and Retailers outsource production to the Pacific Rim, often China which is often outside of their box. Example. Maui makes and sells eyewear, their primary business. We make their cases for them oversease. We are very good at building cases and for MJ, it would be a gnat thet they would not do well or cheaply. Globalization is doing work where it is best to do it. Quite frankly, the USA is not very good at manufacturing inexpensive items loaded with labor cost. What really suprises me is the (somewhat) recent trend for the USA to be outsourcing / off-shoring highly technical and professional functions. That used to be our turf! What this tells me is we as a nation need to stress AND pay for education or we will be nowhere. Oh, regarding outsourcing of high volume low cost OEM production, it's a good day if we can net 12%.
Clickbait!!!
This certainly isn't the first time United is doing this. I was working at United's Apollo Computer Center back in 1991 when they did the same thing. As a senior level programmer I was in a management position making a decent wage so I was "downsized" out.
For what it's worth, I know people who work at UA in management and they have been hiring people to work in this India location for some years now. The ethics with CARES Act is questionable, but just wanted to throw out there the context of the situation.
Hey @Lucky,
I'm a huge fan of this move by UA. India isn't exactly known for having top tier airline experts (note they cannot seem to run profitable airlines), so I'm thinking this will be the beginning of the end for UA,which suits me just fine.
Hey Ben,
A lot of those roles you’ve listed aren’t actually management roles.
Analysts, Sr. Analyst, and even roles that have ‘manager’ in the title aren’t actually management level (which is Director and upwards).
Not that it changes the core issue of outsourcing, but a clarification on how corporate structures work.
Cheers.
Bringing jobs back to America I mean India. Are we going to trash india in 5 years since all the us jobs will no longer go to China but India?
Good ole' United (ugh)!. Doesn't surprise me in the least. Another airline to boycott. Glad most of my miles are still in Chase Ultimate Rewards.
United Airlines has not been a good airlines for a long time. This behavior - at a time when many Americans just lost their jobs - further disgusts me as a U.S. passenger. I will avoid flying United as much as I can.
How much money did United Airlines receive in aid? I thought it was $5 billion (3.5 grant/1.5 loans). $30 billion seems way too high for just United. If that number is wrong, what else in this article is wrong?
This reminds me of the guy who thought he would take his work and outsource it to someone in China. That way he could collect his paycheck but pay someone else 20% of his paycheck to do his work for him. So he ended up collecting 80% of his paycheck to do nothing.
He ended up getting fired.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21043693
allow me to deviate abit. what best can an organization do in a pandemic environment ,disaster or calamity?
Sounds like these bailouts aren’t meant to save US jobs, they’re meant to save upper management bonus packages.
Also, hasn’t India been the “next China” for like the last 10 years or so?
United is not outsourcing jobs! Your story has no basis! Those are United jobs. Do you know the meaning of outsourcing?
...verb
gerund or present participle: outsourcing
obtain (goods or a service) from an outside or foreign supplier, especially in place of an internal source.
"outsourcing components from other countries"
contract (work) out or abroad.
"you may choose to outsource this function to another company or do it yourself."
United is not outsourcing jobs! Your story has no basis! Those are United jobs. Do you know the meaning of outsourcing?
verb
gerund or present participle: outsourcing
obtain (goods or a service) from an outside or foreign supplier, especially in place of an internal source.
"outsourcing components from other countries"
contract (work) out or abroad.
"you may choose to outsource this function to another company or do it yourself."
Those are United jobs, with United benefits. They happen to be located in India at a facility that United has operated for years! United is a global corporation and they hire jobs around the world all the time!
I would have to classify this as "fake news!"
Funny enough United could basically transfer their corporate office to the US Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico or I think, Guam, and get like 90% off their federal taxes.
I get the gist of the article, but this is a problem even in the public sector which by definition is funded by the taxpayer. As it is today federal and state governments rely heavily on work visa contractors to work on things like updating unemployment systems - an irony considering these are good middle class jobs that don't require high end training.
Slowly but surely bipartisan thought is shifting toward balancing stakeholder considerations.
Management is still on payroll until 9/30 unless they took the VSP. So no they're not being let go with out pay. The CARES act has them protected.
@Marv "The Divided States of America is a 3rd world hellhole"
You want all US corporations "burnt to the ground"? Are you part of the Portland "Antifa" (sic) perhaps?
Try living in Haiti or Venezuela for even 2 weeks, (at the same level as the locals), and then get back to me. ;)
Overall, it just doesn't make sense for UA to be hiring anywhere. Given the drastic reduction in flying due to COVID, and the ever lengthening timeline for recovery, I just can't see the justification for hiring.
Wow INS Vikrant really read too much into it. Dunno what Ben said that has anything to do with India being one of the fastest growing economy or 3rd largest economy by PPP.
@Ben Network planning and revenue strategy (i.e. revenue management) are technical in that you need to be able to sift through large data sets. You need to be able to program and have a background or ideally a PhD in data science. My comment about "related to support" refer to the contact center jobs in the link in this article.
According to LinkedIn, UA has an existing office in India with 100+ employees which...
@Ben Network planning and revenue strategy (i.e. revenue management) are technical in that you need to be able to sift through large data sets. You need to be able to program and have a background or ideally a PhD in data science. My comment about "related to support" refer to the contact center jobs in the link in this article.
According to LinkedIn, UA has an existing office in India with 100+ employees which focuses on data science operations (e.g. revenue mgmt, finance, supply chain). I'm not necessarily defending UA's move to offshore these jobs, but it was done years ago, it seems. The narrative that UA is using CARES money to hire folks in India isn't correct. They're hiring in India because that's where their data science team is.
American corporations and management are the ultimate "entitlement queens" and deserve to burn to the ground. This will never happen. The Rethuglican party loves to support Socialism for the Rich and austerity for everyone else and yet people still vote for these criminals because of their own ignorant prejudices . Disgusting all around. The Divided States of America is a 3rd world hellhole.
Isn't this the Liberal Millennial way? Don't you want wide open boarders so everyone can work and have a chance at making it? What's the difference if the are Indians in India? You don't like people of color? You hate Indians? Would be any better if they scurried over a wall in Texas or California? Of course not.
@KK13 becareful, you will be called CCP shill for saying good things about China although I agree, India is nowhere close to China in terms of economic prosperity or infrastructure for that matter. Of course they're free according to some people but hungry. Meanwhile Chinese kids are getting Obese but 'oppressed'.
Their per capita is still very poor despite some of the indians are ruling largest companies in the world. India will not be...
@KK13 becareful, you will be called CCP shill for saying good things about China although I agree, India is nowhere close to China in terms of economic prosperity or infrastructure for that matter. Of course they're free according to some people but hungry. Meanwhile Chinese kids are getting Obese but 'oppressed'.
Their per capita is still very poor despite some of the indians are ruling largest companies in the world. India will not be the next China because US sentiment will be different. They're closing up and getting jobs back to US remember? So actually it is at india's best interest to be nice to China.
The question is, was this job available before today? Regarding not expat position clause, of course it made sense. Do you know how many Indians (or Chinese) want to return to their country but living off their US income + expat perks (cars, living expenses, international school for kids and hardship pay)? There are even so many westerner that wanted to move to Singapore for example but our company specifically mentioned something simiar. "Not an expat position. Company sponsored repatriations back to country of origin will not be available. Local pay structures. Relocation may be provided"
UA has had RM and NP roles in Gurgaon for years. Don't know why is this new. And it isn't that UA has stopped hiring for the same role at their HQ. There is one for Domestic NP analyst at their HQ in Chicago.
While the optics certainly look questionable at the moment, as Dave D notes above this is something that isn’t actually new. As someone who has been on the careers page frequently, I can back up that certain Revenue Management, Accounting and Network Planning positions among others have in fact been popping up for Gurgaon, India for roughly the last 2-3 years already.
@Ben I can speak to AA. Yes, there are traditional “management” positions (RevMan, data analysis, pricing, government affairs, network, etc) in Tokyo, London, Hong Kong and Shanghai (and believe some in South America @ the Caribbean)
@INS Vikrant... umm, how did Ben show any bias?
He raised concerns on UA taking taxpayer's CARE $$ and trying to move Americans jobs to a foreign country. I see zero bias in that. In fact, we should kill this attempt by UA. Would Indians move their jobs to US?
If you are next China, how come you can't create any jobs, and always depend on foreign investment, R&D, off-shored jobs etc? Point is...
@INS Vikrant... umm, how did Ben show any bias?
He raised concerns on UA taking taxpayer's CARE $$ and trying to move Americans jobs to a foreign country. I see zero bias in that. In fact, we should kill this attempt by UA. Would Indians move their jobs to US?
If you are next China, how come you can't create any jobs, and always depend on foreign investment, R&D, off-shored jobs etc? Point is India is nowhere near to even 10% of China.
Third largest economy (PPP) with second largest populace, soon to become the largest populace... no one cares with total numbers!
If I look at India's current GDP growth rate, which is in -0.6%, that's in negative, unofficial unemployment hovering around 20% - I'd be very concerned! And the livability index is one of the lowest among top 100 nation.
So get your facts straight, buddy.
United is run by dirtbags. End of story.
As I understand this isn't *technically* outsourcing? These jobs are still going be on United's books and roles are United employees. This is a case of United Offshoring those jobs. Regardless, optics are bad but this brings up the philosophical question of whose interests a corporatioj is to serve. I mean, from a shareholders standpoint, getting free money from the government whilst moving jobs to low cost locations is exactly what United management should be...
As I understand this isn't *technically* outsourcing? These jobs are still going be on United's books and roles are United employees. This is a case of United Offshoring those jobs. Regardless, optics are bad but this brings up the philosophical question of whose interests a corporatioj is to serve. I mean, from a shareholders standpoint, getting free money from the government whilst moving jobs to low cost locations is exactly what United management should be doing to maximize shareholder value. Hate the game, not the player.
@ H -- Totally fair, United should be maximizing shareholder value, blah blah blah. That would all be good and fine if United weren't begging for a clean extension of the CARES Act, and wanted billions more dollars for another six months.
If airlines were reasonable with all of this then I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of payroll support extension (which would be great for shareholders, by the way), but the pure greed...
@ H -- Totally fair, United should be maximizing shareholder value, blah blah blah. That would all be good and fine if United weren't begging for a clean extension of the CARES Act, and wanted billions more dollars for another six months.
If airlines were reasonable with all of this then I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of payroll support extension (which would be great for shareholders, by the way), but the pure greed we're seeing is what bothers me, and why I hope we don't see an extension as proposed.
Keep in mind that the government support was all about protecting American jobs...
This is an example of offshoring, not outsourcing. Outsourcing occurs when a company uses an external third party (think PWC, IBM) to perform business functions. Offshoring is when a company forms a unit outside of its home country. The latter seems to be the case here since this is a United job that is based in India.
If you look at the job descriptions, you'll see that all of these jobs are either technical...
This is an example of offshoring, not outsourcing. Outsourcing occurs when a company uses an external third party (think PWC, IBM) to perform business functions. Offshoring is when a company forms a unit outside of its home country. The latter seems to be the case here since this is a United job that is based in India.
If you look at the job descriptions, you'll see that all of these jobs are either technical or related to support (i.e. contact center). It's pretty common for companies to hire tech workers in an Indian or European office because there's a shortage of these folks in the US. And, of course, contact centers are often based in India.
@ Musen Sugoi -- I'm not sure network planning and revenue strategy is a role that is "technical" or "related to support" (or at least we may be viewing it differently).
United has handled revenue management and other accounting functions in Gurgaon for a number of years now - this isn't anything new to be honest.
I don’t believe it’s United as such. It’s another company on behalf of them
There are several large service centres in that area of Delhi -airlines , travel agents , banks
As far as I know UA used to outsource its customer relations to India and the service was so bad it was relocated back to the US
Trump is a hypocrite anyhow as all his tacky apparel and caps are manufactured overseas
@ Ben -- The AMS office has regional sales and marketing functions, but also does pricing/inventory for the Atlantic markets.
I agree with you that the optics of this are not good (regardless of what the truth may be), but my frustration is that you present the theory of JonNYC as being absolutely true without (1) noting that it's pure speculation and (2) that airline operations are far more nuanced than you explain. Instead this...
@ Ben -- The AMS office has regional sales and marketing functions, but also does pricing/inventory for the Atlantic markets.
I agree with you that the optics of this are not good (regardless of what the truth may be), but my frustration is that you present the theory of JonNYC as being absolutely true without (1) noting that it's pure speculation and (2) that airline operations are far more nuanced than you explain. Instead this post just devolves to the extremes of how UA is violating the CARES Act or attempting to screw American workers.
I acknowledge I'm not an unbiased commenter, but it's damaging to continuously see posts that present speculation or supposition as fact when those of us who are actually privy to the details know it not to be true.
@ TM -- Further to the Amsterdam market, it's my understanding that the primary reason it was set up was for the tax advantages, more than anything else.
We agree on optics of laying off in the US and hiring in India, so that's good at least.
Regarding your claim that this information isn't true, I'm not sure which part you're disputing? Are you suggesting that United isn't at all reducing its headcount in...
@ TM -- Further to the Amsterdam market, it's my understanding that the primary reason it was set up was for the tax advantages, more than anything else.
We agree on optics of laying off in the US and hiring in India, so that's good at least.
Regarding your claim that this information isn't true, I'm not sure which part you're disputing? Are you suggesting that United isn't at all reducing its headcount in network planning, revenue strategy, or sales? Because I personally know at least two people in those departments who have been laid off in recent weeks.
So is your point of disagreement that United didn't lay off these employees with the intention of rehiring in India at a lower cost? I'm just genuinely confused by which part of this claim you're disputing...
Let me lastly acknowledge that just about everything I present on this blog is more nuanced than I can reasonably present. I do my best to balance being thorough with making information approachable and easy to read even for someone who may not know much about a topic. Sometimes I get that right, and sometimes I don't, and I'l gladly own the situations where I'm wrong.
But here I can't wrap my head around what is actually being disputed, so please enlighten me.
If I may ask do you know the address for the AMS office? Been trying to look for it without any luck.
Revenue management is a “managements role at United. Basically anything at headquarters is considered management. @Ben check out the dm I just sent you on fb.
“ I had no clue that United had management positions in India that weren’t IT/contact center related, and I find that really interesting.”
India is the third largest economy by GDP (PPP), and the fastest growing.
Check you biases, @ben. India is the next China.
@ INS Vikrant -- You're reading into something I wasn't saying/didn't intend. I'm surprised by this because I wasn't aware it was going on, not because I'm against the concept in general. And regarding India being the next China, to my knowledge no US airline has a major office in China (outside of sales and marketing), so something in China beyond that would surprise me as well. ;)
@TM Is the AMS office still open? If it was due to local work (and not say tax or route benefits), why not base in FRA with the Star and LH HQ?
@Ben regarding your question to TM. Both AA and UA (and DL for that matter) absolutely have network planning, revenue management, etc based in strategic locations across the globe. I have worked in one of these positions.
@ James (or anyone else) -- Purely out of curiosity, outside of United's Amsterdam office, United having some people at Star Alliance in Frankfurt, and American's London office, are there any other US airline offices that have anything beyond just local marketing & sales functions?
Nothing remotely clickbaity about the headline and the AMS office is 100% irrelevant to what's happening here.
In essence, this is even worse than traditional "outsourcing."
By UA doing it this way, they are hiding under the fact that it is "still hiring United employees" and "not outsourcing to another firm" but it is doing so in a way that dilutes the salaries of management and administrative roles and reduces the American workforce...
Nothing remotely clickbaity about the headline and the AMS office is 100% irrelevant to what's happening here.
In essence, this is even worse than traditional "outsourcing."
By UA doing it this way, they are hiding under the fact that it is "still hiring United employees" and "not outsourcing to another firm" but it is doing so in a way that dilutes the salaries of management and administrative roles and reduces the American workforce at a US-based airline.
So, much worse.
That's actually not what's going on here, and it's irresponsible to craft an article with as flamebait a headline as this based off the speculation of someone on Twitter (but why resist taking another potshot at United, I suppose?)
There's a UA office in AMS which also handles some revenue management-related functions. It's not an effort to replace American jobs, but rather to base employees in strategic locations to do work that's relevant to the...
That's actually not what's going on here, and it's irresponsible to craft an article with as flamebait a headline as this based off the speculation of someone on Twitter (but why resist taking another potshot at United, I suppose?)
There's a UA office in AMS which also handles some revenue management-related functions. It's not an effort to replace American jobs, but rather to base employees in strategic locations to do work that's relevant to the market.
For someone who loves to note the wild inaccuracy and baseless speculation of TPG's reporting, this blog becomes more and more similar every day.
@ TM -- And the Amsterdam office has people working in central functions like global network planning? Because I'm fairly certain that's not the case, and rather the focus is sales, marketing, and maybe regional network planning. That's similar to how American Airlines has an office in London that's focused on regional functions. Those offices complement US ones, rather than replacing them.
Also, are you denying that the roles being hired for in India right...
@ TM -- And the Amsterdam office has people working in central functions like global network planning? Because I'm fairly certain that's not the case, and rather the focus is sales, marketing, and maybe regional network planning. That's similar to how American Airlines has an office in London that's focused on regional functions. Those offices complement US ones, rather than replacing them.
Also, are you denying that the roles being hired for in India right now aren't also roles that have at least partly recently been made redundant in the US? If so, you don't see how the optics are a bit off of United laying off US based network planning employees while accepting billions of dollars to preserve US jobs, all while hiring India based network planning employees?
I know you work for United, but surely you can see how the optics of this are terrible...
Outside of the potential immediate issue of a CARES Act violation, this represents a huge change in the airline management track hiring process:
Traditionally, RM and Network Analyst jobs, along with FP&A, have been considered *the* best entry-level (with a quantitative 4-year college degree) roles to begin working in if your career goal is senior airline leadership.
Nice to wake up in ORD to an analysis or presentation completed overnight if you're in...
Outside of the potential immediate issue of a CARES Act violation, this represents a huge change in the airline management track hiring process:
Traditionally, RM and Network Analyst jobs, along with FP&A, have been considered *the* best entry-level (with a quantitative 4-year college degree) roles to begin working in if your career goal is senior airline leadership.
Nice to wake up in ORD to an analysis or presentation completed overnight if you're in leadership, but this may be short-sighted. However, if UA 'on shores' these positions down the road they'll probably get some great tax benefits and political clout.
End cabotage now. If United can do that, then SQ can fly LAX-JFK. It's only fair.
United's culture is about treating people with total contempt, as paying passenger Dr. Dao's experience illustrated vividly.
Time to end government subsidy of American airlines and allow a more competitive market with companies who actually value customers and staff.
Click-baity title. This isn't an "outsourcing of management". This is an outsourcing of the revenue management department and the corresponding managers who oversee the analyst.
@ Business Guy -- Last I checked revenue management is a management role?