Sad Layover In A Subtly Unfamiliar Hong Kong

Don’t forget that HK Police resorted to violence early on (including blinding a female protester’s eye and shooting student protesters at point-blank range with live bullets, etc, etc, etc).
all these incidents occurred after protestors were violent. The student protestor who was fired at was attempting to kill a policeman on the ground with an iron bar, another incident was where the student was trying to grab the gun from the policeman or don't you look at the videos of the incidents, maybe they were made up.
These were not desperate measures but calculated. The police were disciplined and used minimal force the real problem was Protestors took to destroyng things and rounding on anyone who disagreed. Since then they have destroyed shops, set fires, stoned people (killing one) , set alight a man who tried arguing with them about their destruction saying lets talk about this and . Hong Kong is a haven for foreign criminals and corrupt businessmen. yet when a government tries to bring in an extradition treaty full of safeguards
for polictical offences or even any offence that was either not an offence in Hong Kong or had less than 5 years imprisonment they objected. Even the Hong Kong Bar only complained really about the fact that any court in China rather than the major ones could ask for extradition. Curiously they never objected to corruprt courts elsewhere asking for it. The opponents of China whipped up the discontent which was prevalent. Housing, healthcare and access to good jobs in face of stiff competition. Yet they failed to direct it to the real culprits.
when China tried to bring in better Housing after the takeover it was defeated by the Hong Kong elite. They are the problem in Hong Kong as they prevent any social welfare and help to the poor while normal Hong Kongers struggle to live financially.
The incidence of social mobility and the gap between the rich and the poor has increased dramatically in Hong Kong. Carrie Lam and her ilk should have ignored the elite most of whom have dual nationality and will leave with their money. Hong Kong has more democracy now that it ever did. that is a fact. the newly appointed local councilors have a chance to show that they can be responsible although sadly 6 of them have shown how childish they are
by disqualifying themselves as they tried to change the oath of office. At least Sinn fein refuse to take the Mp's oath and refuse to sit in westminster. the new councilors can show by their actions that they can work for the good of local Hong Kong people and improve things instead of destroying them.
As for the rest until people hand over the ones who destroy and use violence then why should anyone listen to them. Indeed if they were in the west they would be found guilty by association as the ones doing the violence,
Hong Kong will never get independence however if its people hand over the violent protestors then calmly protest and use non violence and put forward demands for better housing, social welfare etc then their voice will be heard and their fellow Chinese will listen.
As i have visited Hong Kong, have friends there as well as living in China i guess that rednecks like Julia will whine that i am a 5 center. In fact i am British and fully aware of my country's shameful past in respect to Hong Kong.

@BillC, of course mutual respect between both sides is up most importance. What I am trying to say is these people in HK could care less about Freedom and democracy. The protest really isn't even about that. Of course there will be the few hardcores that are preaching about freedom and democracy.
More at the heart is they lost their superiority, and can't handle they are no longer the 'bigger' brother to their weakling family members
Its just like in North America, during the pre-teen years, the bullies may be picking on some kids during the school year. Then over the summer, that puny kid had their puberty growth spur, and when class starts again in September, they are no bigger and taller than the bullies.
The bully no longer can pick on the kid, and starts complaining.

@Aaron, of course they can protest all they want. But don't make the argument that they want to have the same freedom and democracy before 1997. Since they never had Freedom and Democracy.

@BillC, the extradition bill was just the tipping point. The sentiments of the HKers have been there since the beginning. One just had to go to some of the shopping centers, and see the resentment/jealousy and bad attitude towards the Mainlanders who can afford to buy all the merchandises. They lost their 'superiority' complex, and still can't adjust to not being the 'Big man on campus' anymore, in this case the 'Chinese' with the better opportunity and higher spending powers.

I transited through Hong Kong in August. I was lucky. It was one day after the closure, however I heard that many could not get through immigration due to the protest activity. We were there again in November. We stayed at the Regal Riverside not knowing that it was right in the middle of the protests. The area has changed a lot. We couldn't rely on transport and the local shopping centre and stations were closed for our stay. We ended up staying at the Regal airport on our last night, so concerned about getting stuck.

I don't think you'd consider leaving the airport on a stop over any more. I used to do that all the time and especially loved going to Stanley.

It's changed and I think Singapore is probably a better option now

@Aaron, where was this cry for democracy and freedom for HK before 1997?
There never was freedom and democracy for the HK people throughout the history of HK's existence.
They were under the rule of the British colonial powers.....They didn't get to elect their Governors, all the governors were chosen by the Brits....the HK 'council' was as much a puppet of the Brits as they are now under the Chinese gov't.

Nothing have changed.....Those saying HK people deserve freedom....Why didn't the Brits give them that before?

one of the responser pointed out:
Quote
As someone who has sympathy for both Hong Kong’s democratic freedoms, and the long road that mainland China has taken to its present place as a near-superpower, I encourage everyone to read about and understand the protests from a variety of news sources. The narrative that’s being bandied about in most western news sources is quite simplistic.
Unquote

I totally agree this view. The western nations all condemn the Hong Kong government and police force without understanding the true nature of the demonstrators. Don’t be fooled, as most of the Hong Kong population support the police.

This is first takeover of a democratic part of a world by a communist power since Vietnam War. This is also first takeover ever by a communist power without winning a war.
@GipperPDX completely agreed! One of the few countries to have communist party, internet censorship, concentration camps! This is the country that severely oppresses people from religious minority(Fa Lun Gong) or ethnic minority (Tibet, Uighur). This is sequel to Stalinist Soviet Union, and first Orwellian Eurasia in the making.

@kendor "The second issue is whether it is fair or appropriate to analogize China and Chinese freedoms to Nazis, Soviet Communists, or Orwell’s 1984. Having traveled a lot in China (and HK, and Taiwan), and spoken to many people in those countries, my personal feeling is that sort of rhetoric is not accurate and not helpful."

Umm...why not? The Nazis killed 6 million Jews and millions more in their attempt to conquer Europe, the Soviets killed 9M or more just under Stalin, while the Chicoms killed anywhere from 18 to 56M in the Great Leap Forward alone. If you want more recent, one need only look at the organ harvesting. Is that Orwellian enough?

Having visited HK a few times and having good friends there I found some comments here very enlightening, especially those of @Kendor and @The nice Paul, and their analyses were way more sophisticated than the rubbishy tropes being peddled by Western media, especially American ones. There seems to be nostalgia amongst some young HKers for the British era. But I used to visit HK then and I can tell you that democracy was nowhere in sight and my Chinese friends resented the racist baggage that colonialism is always associated with such as exclusive clubs, etc. And I found it ironic to see protesters unfurling the American flag, presumably as a beacon of 'freedom'. Were they to do what they did in the US of A there'd be blood, gore, and deaths galore and the shenanigans will be put down in a couple of days. So the Chinese and HK govts. have been amazingly restrained in their response considering the extreme provocations.

My friends in the PRC are convinced that there are Western black hands at play in HK; this is doubtful but who can blame them due to the penchant of Americans to sponsor and promote self-serving 'colour revolutions' to dislodge govts. that the US of A think inimical to financial rapine? Westerners promoting human rights in China; ha ha, imagine that after their Middle East wars, holocausts against native Americans, Jews, and the Roma; the imprisonment of brown children ongoing in the US; Abu Ghraib; Guantanamo; etc., etc. etc. That the violent protests come at a time when Uncle Sam is trying to strongarm China financially, commercially, and militarily is not lost on the Chinese and adds to their fury.

I am afraid this is not going to end well for the people of HK. China is no pushover and the Xi regime is certainly not going to climb down and show the people of Taiwan and the border regions how to win an argument. It all started with a not-unreasonable demand from the PRC to hand over a murderer who had fled to HK. The protests seemed admirable at first but then got taken over by violent thugs. The people of HK should have pulled back at that point and been thankful that the giant next door had given in and accepted a reversal on the issue. Any visitor to HK would have noticed the wealth of the people. What the heck were they protesting about? Freedom? HKers were much 'freer' than mainlanders but everyone knew the deal when the Brits pulled out. Of course, as in all such 'revolutions', the moderates were pushed back and the violent extremists took over.

Enough! Now both sides pull back!

"Hong Kong felt off. Hong Kong felt off. Hong Kong felt off."

Man, that is all you said, but to fill space I guess you said over and over again. Not even a description of one incident, much less any reference to what is actually happening vis-a-vis the politics in Hong Kong. All the interesting discussion is in the comments, too bad there was nothing substantive in your blog posting. I think I am going to unsubscribe, as I am slowly realizing there is no longer really anything substantive in your blog any more.

Very interesting comments from all, and it's quite incredible how much interest HK generates.

I'm curious that no one has brought up the hapless leadership of HK. Sure, she is under the ultimate control of China, but within that, many things could have been done. The situation is somewhat similar to the board and management of any company - the CEO can and should be someone who asserts authority, not just blindly take orders from the board.

For example, she could have communicated a lot more with HKers; could have withdrawn the bill much earlier; could have allocated a much bigger budget to public housing. These are all well within HK's own powers and didn't need China's approval.

Instead, there is a scarred HK, fleeing immigrants and capital, and hardened attitudes from China about giving HK too much freedom.

@Kendor- I lived in HK for 6 years -3 before and 3 after the handover There was no significant change back then. As a matter of fact, except for yet another incompetent chief executive who ended up stepping down a few years later, ( Tung Chee Hwa) some might argue that things improved slightly once the British FILTH (Failed In London, Try Hong Kong losers) could no longer automatically get jobs in HK and needed to show some basic work skills to get a work visa ( before people overreact, this was NOT all Brits, just a fair number of clueless, adventurous losers).

Tolerance of deviation from the party line has changed most significantly under Xi Jinping, just as it has elsewhere in China. The screws have been tightening everywhere in China. Mr Xi relies on economic growth and brute force elsewhere to tamp down discontent. I’t may work in the short term but is unlikely to work forever. History shows that it doesn’t once most basic needs (food, shelter) have been met.

So here's the dilemma. At his point in time, many people, Universities in particular are attacking the British colonial history as a very bad thing. And sadly many people who live wonderfully free and safe lives in countries built on the British system with many are still part of the Commonwealth.
On the other hand is Hong Kong where the people are facing a rapid transition to a non British organisation and law system and they are mortified by the loss of safety and rule of law that westerners take for granted. And this has occurred in numerous countries in the past 50 years as internal power-mongers have asserted their rights to self-determination, and in the majority of cases the people are less safe, democratic process has largely gone by the wayside and the majority have a less comfortable lifestyle.
Lets watch how Hong Kong's situation evolves, and learn that our own lives in a safe western democracy is worth protecting, and many activists and University Politics Professors should look very carefully about the alternatives before declaiming the proud traditions of western democracies.

I wonder if we went to the same Hong Kong. I was in the city for a brief day visit in September and then again for a few days in November. Yes, hotel prices are rock-bottom and yes, the sidewalks are roomier thanks to many mainland Chinese tourists staying at home. Some slogans painted on walls and some ticket machines closed in the subway, but other than that, it was business as usual everywhere and full flights both ways, both BKK-HKG-BKK in Sept as well as HEL-HKG-HEL in Nov.

Lucky, we all feel more emotional in the air: https://time.com/5274209/airplane-cry-emotion/

This very much reflects an itinerary my wife and I had SEA-HKG-BKK a few weeks ago. All of the FAs on the two flights seemed very depressed. They executed their duties in the usual manner, but their usual CX friendliness was replaced with a very subdued and simple politeness. The mood seemed even worse on the ground (at least FAs get to constantly escape). It was very, very sad. I only observed a handful of people exit through immigration, probably 95% of people at the time we arrived were connecting onward.

I was in Hong Kong last week for a long planned holiday. Having visited the city many times, I agree that there is now a different vibe. Visibly, the city has changed, as there is graffiti everywhere - on the ground, walls, underpasses, road barriers, etc. Pavements are like patchwork, as paving blocks have been ripped up, and temporarily concreted over. Chinese owned banks are boarded up and their ATM machines unavailable, including those in the malls. All the MTR stations are scarred with broken ticket machines and turnstiles. Many entrances are boarded up for protection, or closed altogether.
The city is still busy, but it’s not as packed as it used to be. Stores are half empty. I visited the Museum of Hong Kong and counted just a couple of dozen visitors in my two hour visit - albeit that it had just re opened as it was close to the Polytechnic University. The Night Market was slow, and there were sparse crowds in Mongkok, Sham Shui Po, Wanchai, and even Causeway Bay. The Star Ferry had few tourists. There were police everywhere. In riot gear. They were In the MTR, on street corners, and on the foot bridges.
I observed the protests first-hand on Sunday in Tsim Tsa Tsui, and observed how quickly crowds gather, and disperse. These sights were all new to me.
It’s a transitional time for the city. I left it wondering what comes next. However, I’m in no doubt that HK has lost its ‘mojo’, and the city many remember won’t be the same again. It is still an exciting safe city to visit and has a lot to offer, but it has changed.

Your feelings are probably correct. The Chinese police state is slowly crushing the Hong Kong spirit you speak of. It was inevitable and the British were very foolish and short-sighted to believe that the Communist Party would actually allow Hong Kong's constitutional system to survive for 50 years. Even sadder is the likelihood that China would have agreed to a 50 year extension of the existing treaty with Britain for a price. But for Britain, those days were over and it was cheaper and easier to cut and run.