Several days ago, Delta announced that it would start paying flight attendants during boarding, which is (surprisingly) otherwise not a standard practice in the US airline industry. United’s flight attendant union has now responded to this development with some rather strange claims.
In this post:
Delta’s flight attendant boarding pay
Historically flight attendants in the United States haven’t been paid during boarding, but rather only start to get paid once the aircraft door closes. Delta is the first major US airline to change this:
- Delta announced it would start paying flight attendants for the scheduled 40-50 minute boarding time, at half of the standard hourly rates
- Delta is the only major US airline where flight attendants aren’t unionized, though over the years there have been several unionization efforts
- Obviously Delta leading the way here was an attempt by management to keep flight attendants happy and encourage flight attendants not to unionize
Before we get into what United’s flight attendant union has put out, let me note that:
- I’m pro-union, in the sense that I think flight attendants should be allowed to unionize if they want to, without being intimidated
- I don’t necessarily think unionization is good and non-unionization is bad, or vice versa; objectively Delta flight attendants on the whole are in a better spot than flight attendants at most other major US airlines, and they also provide significantly better service
With that in mind, let’s get into what United’s flight attendant union is claiming.
United flight attendant union responds to Delta
Obviously flight attendant unions are under pressure, because they haven’t been able to negotiate boarding pay, while Delta flight attendants are now proactively being offered this. So the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA), representing United Airlines staff, has put out a memo to members about Delta’s development.
Presumably some members are wondering why they’re paying dues when the union isn’t even able to get them what Delta’s management is proactively offering flight attendants.
The memo acknowledges that boarding pay is a good thing, and that all flight attendants should receive boarding pay.
The union starts by claiming that boarding pay has been a priority for at least 20 years, but since 9/11 the union has been “consumed with battling management at the bargaining table to keep that which we’ve previously accomplished during negotiations.”
Basically claiming “well we haven’t really been able to do anything in 20 years” doesn’t seem like a strong argument in favor of unionization. That’s especially true since Delta flight attendants are arguably in a better position than United flight attendants.
The union then tries to paint “the rest of the story,” which includes the following:
- “Shrouded by this announcement is the fact that Delta management has increased passenger boarding time from 35 to 40 minutes and this announcement is their attempt to tamper back the angry reaction it deserves from Flight Attendants”
- “This decision is unquestionably tied to AFA’s ongoing effort in organizing Delta Flight Attendants”
- “As Delta continues to add additional services, they have failed to restore staffing to pre-pandemic levels on the aircraft”
- “This initiative seemingly is designed to divert attention from the fact that Delta will require all Flight Attendants to wear a uniform that has made them sick, an initiative AFA is fighting against as our collective work to establish standards continues”
- “In the absence of a contract, there is no commitment to lock in this pay factor for Delta Flight Attendants”
- “It’s a stark reminder that Delta management, in the same manner in which it was implemented, has the ability to unilaterally end the boarding pay, at their sole discretion”
This argument is simply all over the place. Where do we even begin?
- I’m pretty sure most Delta flight attendants don’t mind boarding time being increased by five minutes if it means they’re being paid for the entire scheduled boarding time
- The AFA is right about this being tied to attempts to unionize Delta flight attendants, though that’s about the only accurate and relevant point here
- As far as Delta’s staffing levels go, virtually all US airlines staff domestic flights at the minimums legally required, so this is a really nuanced point
- I’m not sure what uniforms have to do with boarding pay, but the AFA is really grasping at straws here
- Right, there’s no commitment that Delta management won’t backtrack, but similarly, if Delta management does, wouldn’t that eliminate the whole point of this, which is to keep flight attendants happy and prevent them from unionizing?
The whole thing gives off “but her emails” vibes.
Bottom line
Flight attendants should be paid during boarding, plain and simple. Delta became the first major US airline to start doing this, and that’s great news. While Delta flight attendants aren’t unionized, the major airline unions should be thanking Delta here, since Delta’s move gives them a lot more leverage.
Obviously unions are having a hard time justifying their value to members in light of this development. As a result, United’s flight attendant union is attacking Delta for increasing boarding time by five minutes, and for all kinds of unrelated things, like uniforms and staffing levels.
What do you make of the response from United’s flight attendant union to Delta’s boarding pay?
(Tip of the hat to View from the Wing)
NOTHING to do with an organizing threat of AFA on the Delta property. That has been continually happening year after year- and NEVER successful.
The true reason “boarding pay” has become a reality is the brave, non union flight attendants at Delta sued regarding pay within California.
The case is OMAN v DELTA AIR LINES. I recommend you follow the litigation through the appeals courts until January 2022 when DELTA was DENIED an appeal...
NOTHING to do with an organizing threat of AFA on the Delta property. That has been continually happening year after year- and NEVER successful.
The true reason “boarding pay” has become a reality is the brave, non union flight attendants at Delta sued regarding pay within California.
The case is OMAN v DELTA AIR LINES. I recommend you follow the litigation through the appeals courts until January 2022 when DELTA was DENIED an appeal before the United States Supreme Court.
This is the TRUTH in legal documentation and NOT the words of a failing, AFA union.
Ask me. I was a named plaintiff in OMAN v DELTA AIR LINES.
And by the way, AFA NEVER filed an amicus brief on behalf of the plaintiffs in either the Delta case or their very own United case. Another example of an EPIC FAIL from a flight attendant labor union!
A union should only use another Union contract as guidelines for their members, not for critical reasons..ex. athletes shall not publicly critique another athlete awarded contract publicly..
Secondly, the uniform is a management right, has nothing to manning/staffing, the uniform subject will work itself out....from what has been exposed economically, United members are receiving more than Delta F/A n below wing personnel.. numbers count at the end game...GO UNITED
A MONTHLY PENSION CHECK...
A union should only use another Union contract as guidelines for their members, not for critical reasons..ex. athletes shall not publicly critique another athlete awarded contract publicly..
Secondly, the uniform is a management right, has nothing to manning/staffing, the uniform subject will work itself out....from what has been exposed economically, United members are receiving more than Delta F/A n below wing personnel.. numbers count at the end game...GO UNITED
A MONTHLY PENSION CHECK FOR LIFE..UPON RETIREMENT...DOES DELTA F/A N BELOW WING PERSONNEL RECEIVES THE SAME...
The AFA naturally spins everything to meet objectives. Delta just raised FA pay measurably, without union intervention, which negates AFA's stated benefits, which by the way, are nonsense; Delta FAs have the highest total compensation in the industry.
Not for long! Scott Kirby will make sure United FA’s are the highest paid in the Industry. He is just that kind of LEADER!
Airline unions have been castrated by the Railway Labor Act. We can’t strike because NLRB governs the whole process, up to the point where we are forced to mediate incremental gains. This despite management compensation up 300% since our bankruptcy in 2008, while the rest of us our just now getting back to even (inflation adjusted).
But, it's the agents at the ticket counter and gates that get the brunt from passengers complaints about delays and cancelations. The agents should get battle pay for delays and cancelations. Once on board, most passengers calm down because they are on their way. (this is in response to the comment above flight attendants getting the brunt of complaints)
The uniforms are Purple made by a dye that makes alot of people sick.
It is a tactic move and from what I know about Delta there is a catch..This is a "Wait for it" moment.
You are exaggerating the scope of the problem and you are omitting Delta's response to this issue.
One year after the uniforms' launch there were literally a handful of FAs which publicly complained about the uniforms effect on their skin. Delta has been quick in looking into the manufacturing process of the uniforms, and when a resolution hasn't been reached they allowed traditional uniforms as alternative to the passport plum ones.
I cannot believe that the hardest part of my day is boarding the aircraft. Let me remind you, it can happen up to 5 times perday! That's a lot of FREE time to the company! In addition, we serve predeparture beverages (American), help with seat dupes, pick up trash, assist with medical issues ect.... just as we do in-flight. I don't understand the question, but even how is this legal?
Delta has dedicated staff which picks up trash and sanitizes the airplane.
Until now the boarding time was built-in the salary negotiations, kind of like the way salary workers who anticipate overtime build that in their compensation negotiation.
You are way off. Sorry.
A case of sour grapes with United AFA Union. They need to focus their frustration on United management. They should be thanking Delta because now they can use it when contract time comes up!
First off if the flight attendants are working during boarding time, then they should have been getting paid all along. Second, as much as the airlines charge for tickets and the BS luggage charge they can more than afford to pay them. It all comes down to management and stockholder greed, they can't just make a good living, they act like they should all be millionaires. I like the idea of a union, but it...
First off if the flight attendants are working during boarding time, then they should have been getting paid all along. Second, as much as the airlines charge for tickets and the BS luggage charge they can more than afford to pay them. It all comes down to management and stockholder greed, they can't just make a good living, they act like they should all be millionaires. I like the idea of a union, but it never works out for the employees the way it should. Union bosses/organizations have become no better than the companies they are supposedly supposed to defend the workers against. Some are over the top ridiculous. Do you really think a truck costs anywhere near 60k-70k to build. Bottom line is the flight attendants should have been getting paid this all along, Delta just proves you don't have to be part of a union for a company to decide to do right.
I believe this is an effort to largely expose the ineffective nature of unions in todays world. There was a day…long ago..when unions really worked for “we the people”…not so much anymore…sadly. Also, to expose the airline industry that are trying to hang on to obsolete regulations (RLA 45 U.S.C. § 151) and as usual….everyone is so busy trying to make a living and survive that even with legal action taken, there is just too...
I believe this is an effort to largely expose the ineffective nature of unions in todays world. There was a day…long ago..when unions really worked for “we the people”…not so much anymore…sadly. Also, to expose the airline industry that are trying to hang on to obsolete regulations (RLA 45 U.S.C. § 151) and as usual….everyone is so busy trying to make a living and survive that even with legal action taken, there is just too much cronyism and corruption involved to make meaningful change. Kudos to Delta for doing the right thing! PS…just my humble opinion.
It was the brave flight attendants who sued Delta in Oman v Delta Air Lines the propagated “boarding pay” all the way up to a Delta Appeal at The US Supreme Court which was DENIED in January 2022. Suddenly “boarding pay” is announced by Delta in May 2022. No coincidence.
Deltas "scheduled" boarding time has been 40 minutes for a long as I can remember. (Years) Although, during covid that was brought down to roughly 35 minutes, even though the bording schedule time has always shown 40 minutes. Of course it's a move to thwart union efforts. Most work groups at Delta are non union and are very happy that way.
Delta uniforms make them sick? What? Aren't they made out of material other clothing is made of? If you are expected to be dressed for work and working you should be paid.
There were reports some FAs were allergic to the new purple uniforms. FAs are allows to wear older gray uniforms.
Delta, by leading the way, pays their FA’s more and better than union FA’s. Trying to keep the union out? Yes. Service and costs will continue to be better w/o another hand in the coffers. This is a win/win for Delta, FA’s and customers. And other airlines will step up to keep up or lose FA’s to Delta. Seems like a recruiting tool also.
Glad Delta is getting paid for their time. Management makes sure they pay themselves for everything they do, the F/A's might as well. I can't think of another hourly job where the employee has to follow company rules, is supervised by the company, has to wear a uniform, but isn't compensated by the company for their time. My ex is a F/A and they HAVE to do a lot for which they aren't compensated for.
Ben, if you want to write an objective piece. Don’t assume you know what Delta flight attendants ‘mind’. You should ask one, like myself. This whole issue is a lot more complicated than you can imagine and has more history than you can imagine.
Exactly! Namely the California Labor Case, Oman v Delta Air Lines.
Ask me. I was a named plaintiff in the case against Delta.
After ending my 41 years as a flight attendant ( because of Covid) with United I have very little good to say about afa.
They seemed to achieve very little for the flight attendants and a lot for the company.
This is just another childish response from afa because they could not achieve much for their representation.
Way to go, Delta! As always, you’re a leader in the airline industry.
Newsflash, pilots aren't paid either prior to the boarding doors closed and parking brake released. Pilots show one hour prior to push. During this busy time they inspect the aircraft, flightplan, weather, maintenance records, perform safety checks, crew briefings, run checklists, make passenger PAs etc etc, all unpaid. That's the "railway labor act" for you. Anti-labor...
And “just the way it’s always been done” by the ALPA and other union leaders. It took some kick ass forward thinking flight attendants to challenge the “status quo”. Check out OMAN v DELTA AIR LINES right up to the US Supreme Court where DELTA’S Appeal was DENIED January 2022.
Now, within 6 months of that DENIED Delta begins paying “boarding pay”
Follow the case for more insight. Ask me. I was a plaintiff in OMAN v DELTA AIR LINES
At United after 25 years they get 40 vacation days. No one will ever see that at D. Also, because of a negotiated contract they have amazing health insurance comparatively hands down. Here are more highlights from United contract that Flight attendants at Delta do not get.
United:
Alcohol and Drug testing pay $25.
Drafting pay in escalating on your rotation is an additional 3 hours of pay.
Minimum pay guarantee...
At United after 25 years they get 40 vacation days. No one will ever see that at D. Also, because of a negotiated contract they have amazing health insurance comparatively hands down. Here are more highlights from United contract that Flight attendants at Delta do not get.
United:
Alcohol and Drug testing pay $25.
Drafting pay in escalating on your rotation is an additional 3 hours of pay.
Minimum pay guarantee is 71 hours
Quarterly incentive pay is an extra $5 an hour for every hour greater than 200 hours in that quarter. This includes vacation and deadheading hours
Minimum duty rig of 5 hours a day. This is from midnight to 23;59. (Like our pilots)
Every international trips an extra $30 of clearing customs pay
If you elect to fly over duty day limitations you receive 5X your pay.
Flight leader pay an additional $7.50 an hour
Purser pay on wide body aircraft is $11.50 an hour
L.O.D. Pay is $2.50 and hour
Paid Global Entry
Paid passport, photos and extra pages.
10% commission on all sales on the aircraft shared among all working crew. And on any flight with sales greater than $500 each FA receives an additional $10
White Flag days and Purple Flag days are like our IPY days. But the incentive is an additional $28.42 each hour
At 25 years of service you receive 40 vacation days.
Sick leave accrual up to 1250 hours
Pension and 401k. Company match up to 7%
Average Delta compensation is over $5,000 more (top of scale) per year than United, using AFA own industry comparison
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/620bdb7c8857ee6ad49debe3/t/63c17fde21fc0806ba571142/1673625567186/INDUSTRY+COMPARISON+-+12JAN23.pdf
The uniform issue at Delta is a serious issue. Many flight attendants have had serious reactions to the purple uniforms and then the grey ones. Many flight attendants were given permission to wear their own black and white clothes as a uniform. As of today, May 2nd, Delta is finding people still wearing black and white and taking them off the line without pay and with penalty. All while the company is understaffed. They are...
The uniform issue at Delta is a serious issue. Many flight attendants have had serious reactions to the purple uniforms and then the grey ones. Many flight attendants were given permission to wear their own black and white clothes as a uniform. As of today, May 2nd, Delta is finding people still wearing black and white and taking them off the line without pay and with penalty. All while the company is understaffed. They are discriminating against people with medical issues to the uniform. Yes, boarding pay is appreciated and yes, it is about time. Hopefully this will be a change industry wide soon. But things are hardly perfect at Delta.
Great job Delta. Unions are just burocracy mafia leeches.
Delta has always been THE industry leader that has been more favorable to staff. Starting with profit sharing and pay rates. Don't mind the others that boast about being the biggest and the best. The proof is in the service we get from the happy staff.
I don't think flight attendant should be getting pay just for walking around back and forth starting of the back of the plane they don't even serve food anymore and some of the flight attendant they are no kind especially the flight attendant from JetBlue The airline industry is the flight attendant they want to get paid for those time they should be make the flight attendant pay the hotel and the transportation back and forward when they stay overnight
Your comment is difficult to understand but u mentioned they dont even serve food anymore. Flight attendnants are not waitresses, contrary to popular belief.
My Opinion: ALL Flight Attendants should get full pay while they are working. They are working and responsible for the safety of the passengers and protection of the company aircraft which is worth millions during the boarding process. To not get paid during this time let alone an offer for half pay is unacceptable.
Furthermore, International Pilots sometimes have to report 2 hours before a departure to take a COVID-19 test as well as...
My Opinion: ALL Flight Attendants should get full pay while they are working. They are working and responsible for the safety of the passengers and protection of the company aircraft which is worth millions during the boarding process. To not get paid during this time let alone an offer for half pay is unacceptable.
Furthermore, International Pilots sometimes have to report 2 hours before a departure to take a COVID-19 test as well as go over flight planning, weather, diversion information, security risks etc. They are working and DO NOT get compensated as well.
Aloha Todd,
You are absolutely correct in this summary. The Labor unions (AFA, ALPA, etc.) have failed miserably in providing modern day CBA's when representing these Union Professionals. Unfortunately, until ALL these Labor Groups become a National Union representing all the US Airline employees, the individual Companies will "mind fuck" the employees by dangling these miniscule increases or gains as bargaining chips.....
I found this article in my Google feed, and I wanted to comment solely because I appreciate how balanced and nuanced this article is. Very rarely do I find such a rationale and fair piece. Kudos Ben!
I don’t think the flight attendants should get extra money most of them are nasty when u ask a question . They don’t even serve food any longer to me they get paid for not doing anything . But walking around or just standing on the back of the plane .. I’ve flown many many times and they have gotten worse through the years
The passengers have gotten worse through the years also. Peace.
Almost forgot, the 15 to 20 minutes it takes for everyone to grab their bags and deplane (get off the aircraft), we aren't paid for that either.
It's actually standard practice for all aviation employees. I'm a pilot for a legacy carrier (one of the big 3) and we don't get paid either. It is something we have complained about for years.
The entire crew shows up early (usually 15 mins before boarding, so 45 mins before departure time) to set up and check the plane. We do our safety checks and paperwork. Our pilots do their preflight planning. program all...
It's actually standard practice for all aviation employees. I'm a pilot for a legacy carrier (one of the big 3) and we don't get paid either. It is something we have complained about for years.
The entire crew shows up early (usually 15 mins before boarding, so 45 mins before departure time) to set up and check the plane. We do our safety checks and paperwork. Our pilots do their preflight planning. program all the navigational info, do the countless checklists. Our flight attendants spend their time doing all the safety checks in the cabin area and assisting with passengers bags and beginning their services.
On a normal day, we will do anywhere from 2-5 flights. So 45 mins EACH FLIGHT we don't get paid for. We don't get paid for our sits either. So if the company adds a 3 hrs sit somewhere, that's 3 hrs away from home, in uniform, that we don't get paid for.
We try our best to be upbeat when interacting with customers and helping to solve delay/connection issues but yes, please understand that we are not being paid for any of this work, any delays, or any of our additional effort. If we seem upset, I promise it's not the customers fault.
If you’re a captain for a major your making 250K or more per year already. I’m having trouble feeling sorry for you.
It's not true that flight crews are not getting paid for the work they do during boarding and deplaning. A topped out Flight Attendant at a major carrier makes approx. $73 / hr. for flight time. This high pay rate is to compensate them for the time they are working on the ground. Do you really think that pay rate is appropriate for a Flight Attendant.? Granted they are responsible for the safety of the...
It's not true that flight crews are not getting paid for the work they do during boarding and deplaning. A topped out Flight Attendant at a major carrier makes approx. $73 / hr. for flight time. This high pay rate is to compensate them for the time they are working on the ground. Do you really think that pay rate is appropriate for a Flight Attendant.? Granted they are responsible for the safety of the passengers during an emergency, which is a big responsibility but, that ground time is built into their pay. Same with the Pilots.
Delta’s attendants, as a whole, are friendly and more attentive than those I have encountered on United and American Airlines. American’s attendants are generally OK. However. My experiences with United’s attendants have not been pleasant (awful). Some of the older attendants are mean
Southwest’s attendants are in a different league because they try to make the travel experience joyful and fun. I applaud Delta’s management for doing whatever is needed to keep everyone happy,...
Delta’s attendants, as a whole, are friendly and more attentive than those I have encountered on United and American Airlines. American’s attendants are generally OK. However. My experiences with United’s attendants have not been pleasant (awful). Some of the older attendants are mean
Southwest’s attendants are in a different league because they try to make the travel experience joyful and fun. I applaud Delta’s management for doing whatever is needed to keep everyone happy, from the employees to passengers.
Maybe, the United’s union should rethink its approach by considering passenger (end-users) experiences. Every since united took over continent, Service has been horrible. After Recognizing a general public perception of or customer service, united might consider a different approach for ensuring a wonderful passenger experience and, thereby, get what the union wants for its members. Everything doesn’t have to be us versus them.
How do airlines get away with not paying flight attendants for time worked . Does this mean when a flight is delayed for hours and they deal with angry customers, no pay? Shame on airlines for taking advantage of mostly low paid female positions. Maybe the CEO should work a few hours daily, without any compensation. If they’re not being paid, then they are not representing the airline and why should a uniform be required?
I really don't know who you are but union or non union you work you get payed you make it sound like it's a option
.
Flight Attendants should be paid during the boarding process. They are working at that point and are expected to react and engage with passengers.
I wish that Flight attendants on United are seeing how their president of AFA is using funds from AFA to pay private companies and individuals to promote particular and personal agendas that doesn't give any benefit to flight attendants...
Its no surprise that this subject has inspired a lot of conversation among industry professionals. It's been an issue that has wrankled stakeholders for years. What is surprising is the great interest many others have taken in this discussion, especially since they have no skin in the game. Sadly it's often used as a cheap shot against unions. Even worse, it comes from people who don't know anything about how flight attendants work, get paid,...
Its no surprise that this subject has inspired a lot of conversation among industry professionals. It's been an issue that has wrankled stakeholders for years. What is surprising is the great interest many others have taken in this discussion, especially since they have no skin in the game. Sadly it's often used as a cheap shot against unions. Even worse, it comes from people who don't know anything about how flight attendants work, get paid, or other quality of life issues.
What is most odd about this article the attempt to brand the union flight attendants at United as United's union. They are represented by the AFA, which is the largest fight attendant union, and their contract at United is unique to them, but labeling them as United's union just sounds wrong.
Now, while a top paid flight attendant can make six figures, it could easily take 20 years to get to that level. Delta pays it's top rate after 12 years, but it will take several more years to get the high value trips consistently to make 100k. That's still not bad for essentially unskilled labor with a high school degree.
Pay is considerably lower for those starting out, and even worse for those at the regionals. While I understand that everyone has to pay their dues, this does expose a rather huge gap between senior and junior attendants. While the airline has used the Railroad Labor Act to explain our pay structure, the ugly hidden truth so inartfully worded by someone else, is that the senior union membership likes it this way.
Put it this way, in the current system, a senior flight attendant can work two trips to Johannesburg a month (when that was a thing) and collect 100k. If FAs were paid for every hour they were signed in, the length and number of trips would be key to making the most money. The length of flight would be virtually irrelevant. That's obviously not in their best interest, and many junior FAs have bought into the system that as long as they just hang in long enough, and don't sustain a career ending injury, they too can live the sweet life.
This is a bitter pill for those employees who may be on a different career trajectory, or hired at say over 50.
This new policy at Delta will go into effect one month after a number of employees were given unpaid medical leave due their high sensitivity to Delta's uniforms. This all happening during a massive organization effort, and a general change in labor culture given the success of union efforts at Starbucks and Amazon. These events are all related, including the fact that Delta originally offered no compensation for the extending the unpaid portion of a flight attendant's day.
Had the author talked to any flight attendants, preferably off duty and not between serving them old fashioneds, they would know all of this and have written a much more informed blog.
And to the person who said unions are so 1911... So is a five day work week, holiday pay, and child labor laws, but we all have the unions to thank for them and Delta flight attendants have even more benefits to be thankful for due to the hard work of their Union brothers and sisters. If we think these labor practices are "baked in" and no longer need unions to fight for worker protections, that is very naive. Covid has proven anything can be taken away without a contract.
Delta, by leading the way, pays their FA’s more and better than union FA’s. Trying to keep the union out? Yes. Service and costs will continue to be better w/o another hand in the coffers. This is a win/win for Delta, FA’s and customers. And other airlines will step up to keep up or lose FA’s to Delta. Seems like a recruiting tool also.
Unions were very beneficial across the board 100 years ago, that does not mean that we need to support them nowadays unless they make sense for the workers. In the case of Amazon or Starbucks, were entry-level workers are treated like lab rats, it makes perfect sense to unionize. In the case of Delta, where there are so many applicants for the FA positions, where the workers (including FAs) have the best total compensation in...
Unions were very beneficial across the board 100 years ago, that does not mean that we need to support them nowadays unless they make sense for the workers. In the case of Amazon or Starbucks, were entry-level workers are treated like lab rats, it makes perfect sense to unionize. In the case of Delta, where there are so many applicants for the FA positions, where the workers (including FAs) have the best total compensation in the industry and where the company shared with its workers 5 billion dollars of its profits in 5 years prior to the pandemic, unionization doesn't make sense.
This is long overdue for the big three for the flight crew. I applaud Delta for their actions whilst realizing that they were facing a unionization effort. My late aunt was a PanAm attendant & they got paid from the moment she reported to work at the airport du jour. Those days are gone & sadly unions are not going to bring that back. Many folks think that flying is a ‘right’ & abhorrently act...
This is long overdue for the big three for the flight crew. I applaud Delta for their actions whilst realizing that they were facing a unionization effort. My late aunt was a PanAm attendant & they got paid from the moment she reported to work at the airport du jour. Those days are gone & sadly unions are not going to bring that back. Many folks think that flying is a ‘right’ & abhorrently act accordingly. Flying is a Privilege. Speaking as a person that is now spending one’s miles that are 3 times greater than the host.
"Obviously Delta leading the way here was an attempt by management to keep flight attendants happy and encourage flight attendants not to unionize" This statement goes right to the point that Delta*s work rules have to be competitive with the union airlines or they would simply be an apprenticeship airline.
As for the uniforms that make people sick, when this type of issue occurs at a union shop the old inifoms return until the...
"Obviously Delta leading the way here was an attempt by management to keep flight attendants happy and encourage flight attendants not to unionize" This statement goes right to the point that Delta*s work rules have to be competitive with the union airlines or they would simply be an apprenticeship airline.
As for the uniforms that make people sick, when this type of issue occurs at a union shop the old inifoms return until the issue is corrected.
Increasing the time required to proform an unpaid task is and should always be an issue.
Having to fight to return to a work standard equal that lost by no fault of an employee, while that loss is exloited for profit, is corporate 101. It is a way to build the number of items to be negotiated to a higher number thus allowing for more ,if you really won't that you have to bend on this, opportunities. Often in times of austerity and consisions Unions negotiate snap backs to avoid this. What happend 20 years ago was obviously an extraordinary circumstance and changes happend at an accelerated pace necessitating implementation without time for negotiations. Many concessions were granted in solidarity and good faith yet once profits were setting records again still had not been returned.
The way this was written shows a rather poor intent to present the issues though informed journalism. More of a thinly veiled corptate shill piece.
I was a flight attendant for Northwest for 10 yrs. I think flight attendants should be paid for boarding. That is a major part of there job.
Delta FA's,
Walk away from AFA.
Sincerely,
Someone who pays dues to them.
It's a popularity contest combined with favoritism, pc culture, and the famed white privilege everyone talks about (seriously. Does anyone not think unions and politicians fit this category so well?).
You work at a small base? You're underrepresented and your elections mean nothing. Large bases? They make the changes. Think how New York shtty controls New York State. Or shtcago controls Illinois...
Delta FA's,
Walk away from AFA.
Sincerely,
Someone who pays dues to them.
It's a popularity contest combined with favoritism, pc culture, and the famed white privilege everyone talks about (seriously. Does anyone not think unions and politicians fit this category so well?).
You work at a small base? You're underrepresented and your elections mean nothing. Large bases? They make the changes. Think how New York shtty controls New York State. Or shtcago controls Illinois direction. You've got people holding positions for far too long. You don't think their is a bias coming from that?
Run away from the AFA
They finally Sarah Nelson finally did something when they saw the UFAA gain steam before the Continental and united contract meger.
The feels came out of her and people listened. Feeling don't belong in politics or work rules.
You have a job that provides a damn decent lifestyle. You think it got that good out the kindness of the board? Those who fought before you made it possible. Once was the domain of only single wemon of a strict age, hight and weight. If you feel underrepresented maybe the base you are in could use your help working with the organization that made a career out of a premarital hobby. Fly safe, fly far, fly long, and fly happy.
Agree also they should be requesting taxing reports from AFA . So insane how political lobby and personal agenda of the president of the AFA is always a priority and using AFA money to pay private companies including one based in Florida
For those who flight 3 or 4 legs daily that means almost 2 hours more of pay, who can argue with that. Sarah Nelson is not in touch with reality. Bravo Delta, and Sarah do something like that and earn your salary
Of course Delta FA'S provide better service. They could be fired if they don't meet standards as opposed to the union FA'S, who are difficult if not impossible to fire...
Wah. Crying like the teachers unions.
Great, Delta flight attendants get boarding pay. That is only one component of a flight attendant's compensation and benefit package. I would be interested in seeing a comparison in total compensation and benefits for Delta flight attendants versus the unionized flight attendants at American and United. I am rather confident there would really be no comparison.
In this latest development, maybe the proper headline should be: Delta flight attendants continue to drink management provided anti-union...
Great, Delta flight attendants get boarding pay. That is only one component of a flight attendant's compensation and benefit package. I would be interested in seeing a comparison in total compensation and benefits for Delta flight attendants versus the unionized flight attendants at American and United. I am rather confident there would really be no comparison.
In this latest development, maybe the proper headline should be: Delta flight attendants continue to drink management provided anti-union kool aid while United and American flight attendants bring home the bacon.
This anti-union kool-aid you mention must be some really good shit, because I don't see DL FA's packing up and applying for UA/AA if there's some strong wage disparity you are strongly insinuating. Maybe before union dues.
One major component which United FAs treat as key is line holder seniority. Delta has something called AB rotation which means all FAs are required to sit in reserve for a month on occasion throughout the year. This makes it fair across the board, but most FAs do not live near base and it gets quite expensive to live near base for a month on ovation and interrupt home life. At AA and UA, a...
One major component which United FAs treat as key is line holder seniority. Delta has something called AB rotation which means all FAs are required to sit in reserve for a month on occasion throughout the year. This makes it fair across the board, but most FAs do not live near base and it gets quite expensive to live near base for a month on ovation and interrupt home life. At AA and UA, a FA will eventually be able to gaurantee their schedule through monthly bidding allowing them to commute when the need befire a scheduled trip. The seniority benefit is much more important than 1/2 part for boarding IMO.
No such thing as AB rotation at Delta. Purely seniority driven schedules. No forced reserve or standby for any period of time. Total compensation package for DL FAs tops both UA and AA. DL FAs also have job security. Not fired on whims from management for "not meeting standards" (although just like at all businesses, some probably should be).
INCORRECT CAS. Delta has a seniority threshold as well for those that get "A" (Availability or Reserve) days. It can vary depending on the month in terms of crew availability at each base etc. So NOT ALL FAs are required to sit in reserve at all.
CAS, you are incorrect. Delta does not have monthly rotating reserve. Delta flight attendants all have schedules. The most junior are subject to having six reserve days every month in addition to their scheduled trips. Those days are called access days, or Adays. They are the only flight attendant group to have such a system and it is considered a huge improvement over full month reserve. Do your research.
What planet are you living on. Safe to guess who you flew on to get there. Bet they were late, too.
Do your homework before spouting such inaccurate statements. It will surely help your credibility.
They should be paid for this time. Union is passed because Delta’s none union airline got it first.
Flight attendants both (union and non union) need to get this information out to the public. We will apply pressure to the airlines to PAY UP ! I fly often and had no idea, (nor did anyone I asked) that this was going on, in this day and age. No executive would work for free - not even for 5 minutes! This practice should be illegal- requiring employees to be somewhere, at a certain time, then not paying them is beyond acceptable !
I don't need to do my research! Delta treats it's employees like family!! No company is perfect but Delta has always had my back and I have absolutely no complaints. As for a Union all they want is our hard earned money. One of my colleagues worked for for a union airline we merged with and said the union did absolutely nothing to help!! The union higher ups don't care about us all they want is our money!!!
I'm sorry but do your research. Many things that Delta Flight Attendants are benefiting from come from unions fighting on Capital Hill that have made our careers as flight attendants better and safer. So I think Delta flight attendants need to thank the fa unions that have made their careers better. Management thinks of no one but themselves and their buyback packages. Wake Up!
I am a 25 year Delta Flight Attendant. Delta is the best company I have worked for!!! Management treats us good during this pandemic Delta has given us commuters positive space to and from work, provide us with breakfast lunch and dinner. Our new hires have 6 days on reserve verses the whole month. We have profit sharing and superior pay to any other airline. Just another fact it is almost impossible to get fired...
I am a 25 year Delta Flight Attendant. Delta is the best company I have worked for!!! Management treats us good during this pandemic Delta has given us commuters positive space to and from work, provide us with breakfast lunch and dinner. Our new hires have 6 days on reserve verses the whole month. We have profit sharing and superior pay to any other airline. Just another fact it is almost impossible to get fired at Delta unless you do something stupid! For all those flight attendants thinking about signing a union card don't! You will still be re-routed and flown into your off day.
It is long past the time for Capitalism, like all the other ism's, to be abolished. Any system that allows a select few to accumulate hundreds of millions, and billions of dollars in personal wealth is corrupt at its core. And, the legal system that provides cover and justification for these robber barrons needs to be dismantled and reformed to strip them of their gluttonous wealth and come down on the side of the workers...
It is long past the time for Capitalism, like all the other ism's, to be abolished. Any system that allows a select few to accumulate hundreds of millions, and billions of dollars in personal wealth is corrupt at its core. And, the legal system that provides cover and justification for these robber barrons needs to be dismantled and reformed to strip them of their gluttonous wealth and come down on the side of the workers who are the producers of the wealth businesses deny them an equitable share of. Capitalism is a scam perpetrated on the people who make commerce work.
Delta has the most generous profit-sharing system in the aviation industry, and as a percentage of its profits probably across the board. In the 5 years prior to the pandemic it paid over 5 billion dollars in profit, out of which a big chunk went to its FAs. While I agree with you that neo-Capitalism is greedy, this is not an issue at Delta, which is probably why unionization isn't a thing among its FAs
Even without boarding pay, I still rather have my Union contract and job protection!
Delta did not furlough any workers during the pandemic (Southwest was the only other one like Delta). How is that for job protection?
You don’t know any better. AFA EPIC FAIL.
Some unions are run well, some aren’t. Big whoop. This is one anecdote among innumerable others.
Sorry if I come across as ignorant but can someone help me understand
1. How is not paying an employee for time they are clearly working legal? What happens if a flight is delayed by a couple of hours? Are they still not paid?
2. Is this unique to the US or is it common with airlines as a whole? I can’t imagine European or Australian airlines being able to do not pay for hours worked but I may be missing something.
It’s not illegal, it been a negotiated part of their labor contracts for decades. Also, this whole thing about them not being paid is a misnomer…they are being paid, it’s just baked into the flight hour pay. It’s the same way for pilots, it’s basically treated like a salary. Rough example…an FA works a 4hr flight at $25/hr…so $100 total, but the boarding and post flight time is another hour so they’re working 5 hours...
It’s not illegal, it been a negotiated part of their labor contracts for decades. Also, this whole thing about them not being paid is a misnomer…they are being paid, it’s just baked into the flight hour pay. It’s the same way for pilots, it’s basically treated like a salary. Rough example…an FA works a 4hr flight at $25/hr…so $100 total, but the boarding and post flight time is another hour so they’re working 5 hours and getting $100 or $20/hr. What’s currently viewed as “unpaid time” is really just baked into the total compensation that they get. DL just gave their employees a raise under the guise of boarding time pay.
YES! I was in the airline industry 1970-2003. Having pay based on block time (and then getting into multiple levels of rig pay) is one way of addressing pay but sets up strong areas of management/employee conflicts. When I came into the industry, I was puzzled why the airline industry didn't just pay as done to workers in factories, retail stores, etc. i.e.: pay all time from check-in to check-out. I understand that early airline...
YES! I was in the airline industry 1970-2003. Having pay based on block time (and then getting into multiple levels of rig pay) is one way of addressing pay but sets up strong areas of management/employee conflicts. When I came into the industry, I was puzzled why the airline industry didn't just pay as done to workers in factories, retail stores, etc. i.e.: pay all time from check-in to check-out. I understand that early airline structures maybe set the stage for the way things are done now, but that has long past. Bob (not the original Bob)
I'm embarrassed to say, bc I work inflight, but never understood Rig Pay. If I may, what is it?
It's not a misnomer, you leave out the time that the F/A's are sitting in the airport when their next flight is delayed three hours due to weather, or they get to their final destination and have to wait an hour in the cold at 1am for the hotel shuttle to pick them up. Thats not baked in. Your assumption works only when everything works perfectly and is on time, which doesn't happen very often....
It's not a misnomer, you leave out the time that the F/A's are sitting in the airport when their next flight is delayed three hours due to weather, or they get to their final destination and have to wait an hour in the cold at 1am for the hotel shuttle to pick them up. Thats not baked in. Your assumption works only when everything works perfectly and is on time, which doesn't happen very often. They spend quite a bit of their time in the service of the company, but not getting paid.
The US specializes in maximizing corporate profits without concern for employee benefit. It’s practically our national pastime.
They are paid for it, just via a different system. Now, if you want we'll instead pay you for all of your work time but I assure you that the max hourly rate will now be much much less than the current $72/hour!
Lucky, all major us airlines have blatantly refused to bring back pre-pandemic staff levels on premium flights. American fas are working south America fligh5s with bare minimum , having full pre-pandemic service .
On the 777 300 only five flight attendants work in first a business adding up a total of 60 premiu seats. All this while flights are full.
So each FA is responsible for 12.5 passengers? OMG the horror, how could you ever handle such an impossible workload?
Delta boarding time has been 40 minutes for years.
I can only imagine the service on United now , taking their displeasure out on customers as usual , a truly abominable airline with ridiculous responses
Airline contracts are regulated under the Railway Labor Act. It is very antiquated. Unions have been trying for years to change these rules but have been unsuccessful. While Delta can add pay components at any time, they also take them away and/or change them at their whim. Without a contract, it’s flight attendants livelihoods are subject to managements discretion leaving them with no control over their income, work rules, safety, health care or work environment....
Airline contracts are regulated under the Railway Labor Act. It is very antiquated. Unions have been trying for years to change these rules but have been unsuccessful. While Delta can add pay components at any time, they also take them away and/or change them at their whim. Without a contract, it’s flight attendants livelihoods are subject to managements discretion leaving them with no control over their income, work rules, safety, health care or work environment. Everyone looks at the dollars but never the big picture which unions fight hard to provide it’s members. While the boarding pay is celebrated, Delta flight attendants are hoping unionized FA’s either get equal or greater in the hopes that this will be one more thing management will think twice about before removing it.
Delta FAs and pilots are compensated the most (with profit sharing included) among US airlines. Delta management understands that it is offering a premium product (compared to other US airlines) and expects its employees to support that mission while paying them a respectable wage.
If it was that bad working for Delta, they would have all left for UA or AA. I clearly read several posts from Delta FA’s that said delta treats them very well and they are better compensated than the union FA’s. They even got served Bf lunch and dinner through the pandemic. This may be why Delta is growing and they are shrinking. If you take care of your people, their is no reason for them to pay someone else to represent them.
If Delta FAs felt like they were treated at the management's whim, they would have either unionized themselves or you would see a large exodus. Instead, Delta has the largest pool of applicants for FA positions (about 200 applicants for each position prior to the pandemic), specifically because of the reputation that it gained for how it treats its FAs (and its workers, overall).
Quick note - the 10% to 90% range of $/hour flight pay is $24 - $56 US. Probably skewed lower by regionals. So the hourly flight pay is somewhat padded to compensate for pre and post flight duties. The median is $38
The average pay of a registered nurse is also $38/hr.
An the RN has AS or BS degree.
Lol, so do the majority of flight attendants.
This comment shows a giant lack of understanding about crew pay.
Yes, the hourly rate may seem large, but most air carriers only guarantee 75 hours per month. Trying to compare to a totally different profession that works a likely minimum of 48 hours/week, which works out to 192 hours/month --more than double that of an air crew member, is apples and cheese.
As an air crew member, I'm happy th see Delta FA's...
This comment shows a giant lack of understanding about crew pay.
Yes, the hourly rate may seem large, but most air carriers only guarantee 75 hours per month. Trying to compare to a totally different profession that works a likely minimum of 48 hours/week, which works out to 192 hours/month --more than double that of an air crew member, is apples and cheese.
As an air crew member, I'm happy th see Delta FA's get this. Unions are the ones who fouled this up decades ago by accepting contracts that included unpaid duty to that point that it is entrenched in every airline's pay system -- until this.
Having been in a professional union for about half of my working career I am familiar with both sides of the argument.
The airline industry needs some unionization. The problem arises exactly as this is playing out. The union has to battle for every contract item. Eventually some items get prioritized lower than others.
Delta, with no union, only has to match or better slightly the contract terms that the other unions have to fight...
Having been in a professional union for about half of my working career I am familiar with both sides of the argument.
The airline industry needs some unionization. The problem arises exactly as this is playing out. The union has to battle for every contract item. Eventually some items get prioritized lower than others.
Delta, with no union, only has to match or better slightly the contract terms that the other unions have to fight tooth and nail to achieve in order to have a much "better" contract.
So I have real sympathy for the unionized employees who fight and then see the non-union employees get something a little better without any struggle or potential losses during work action. A real win-win for Delta.
Those unionized flight attendants are free to apply at Delta. Saying "some non-union employee" is wrong....they are not the same company, so you're comparing apples to oranges...even though they are in the same business.
The Delta Deal is far superior and has never been a “match or better slightly” any labor contract. Nor does the employee have to wait literally years and years to get a contract renewal.
It’s called being nimble and the airline unions better learn it or they will continue to drive their employers down.
Thank you Delta!!
I feel the flight crew should get paid a full wage the minute the minute they step on the plane.and until they leave the plane.
Yes, but in a normal world their wage would be lower. The current wage system developed to compensate for the unpaid time.
Given the abuse I see/read them take on a daily basis I would argue the raise is well worth it. Congrats Delta on raising the bar, whatever the reason.
DELTA'S NON UNION F/A'S ARE NOTHING BUT PARASITES. THEY'LL PAY THEM FOR BOARDING, BUT WILL CLEVERLY REDUCE PAY AND BENEFITS ELSEWHERE.
Sounds like a disgruntled union FA. Just because you company sucks and you think only a union can save you does not mean FA's that work for a great company that takes care of its people do.
Bravo Delta. I'd pay for boarding to avoid all the bs your employees can already generate with a lawyer. Unions are very 1911. Lawsuits change companies behavior more than a collective bargaining chip.
Why do delta flight attendants have better situations than unionize? Same reason Starbucks workers without the dues will.
Who needs an additional governing agency in their life? Those who don't know their own value.
Check out OMAN v DELTA- a flight attendant class action suit filed in 2017 in California and the REAL reason Delta started paying boarding pay- the Delta Appeal was DENIED in the US Supreme Court in January 2022.
A union threat nothing to do with implementing boarding pay. A legal demand filed by your employees- just not a coincidence or kindness from Delta heart thingy here!
From the little research I’ve done this pm, it appears that airlines consider the basic pay crew get covers them from the time they clock on to the time they clock off, the pay from doors closed to doors open is considered an enhancement payable in addition to the basic hourly rate, they also get a subsistence allowance to cover meals if they have to overnight. It seems reasonable to me now but maybe I am missing something.
AFAIK most flight attendants in the US only get paid from the point the Aircraft doors close pre take off to when they open post landing.
That means the 30ish minutes the gate agent is standing there checking to tickets and the 20ish minutes while people deplane are all unpaid time.
Actually flight attendants have to show up one unpaid hour prior to domestic departure and 1.5 to 2 hours prior to international. That's a lot of lost wages and personal time.
You are correct! All unionize flight attendant VOTE on a contract & it has to be renegotiated each time the contract between Company & Flight Attendants is up for renewable & how long a contract is in effect is ALSO voted on by flight attendants! Flight Attendants decide by the majority vote,what is most important to them in a contract! Pay is always a top priority! Major carrier’s flight attendants are PAID from Check in...
You are correct! All unionize flight attendant VOTE on a contract & it has to be renegotiated each time the contract between Company & Flight Attendants is up for renewable & how long a contract is in effect is ALSO voted on by flight attendants! Flight Attendants decide by the majority vote,what is most important to them in a contract! Pay is always a top priority! Major carrier’s flight attendants are PAID from Check in time until end of trip & check out! Different rates of pay are paid & each airline may use different label to identify pay for each different step! Example: check in pay, ground time pay, flight time pay, holding pay! Just to name a few titles! So who wrote this article is SO mis informed! How do I know? I Worked years for a major carrier & have pay stubs that show what I earned from Check in until debriefing after a trip! Delta ( I have personally know several Delta Flight Attendants) does NOT now, OR have never paid their flight attendant equal pay as other major US carriers! Just a fact! The Author of this CRAP needs to be investigated! Scary dude!
Ore you okay?! Did this sound better in your head?! US and AA f/as are only paid from start of flight to end of flight! That’s the fact, no matter what you scream! “Investigated?!” You are not well!
Diamond Trolls… what ever next! :-)
Exactly, the little research you did. Emphasis on "little'. US based flight attendants don't clock in and don't clock out. Stay out of conversation of which you have no knowledge.
It’s seems a very complicated way to run a business but this is what I looked at, it’s complicated for sure and demonstrates how labour negotiations in the US are more often than not over complicated. A higher basic pay and removal of all those extra add-ons will save admin time and ultimately the company’s bottom line.
https://1ym0hp2iyrnrqlgkf3l8g0gp-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/IndustryComparison04FEB20UPDATED.pdf
As a former Pan Am flight attendant, I have always found it frustrating to not be paid for boarding and deplaning and it is also frustrating to sit at the gate with a plane full of passengers still servicing them and not be paid. Even if you are parked at the gate, you are still responsible for their safety on board and should be paid as such. Per diem does not compensate for that. Per diem was intended to cover misc. expenses while downline on the job.
Maybe I'm not as "in-the-know" as some of you are-but YTF would airlines not consider FA's on the clock when they're working? I'm surprised there hasn't been a lawsuit over this if it's literally been going on for 20+ years?
It’s a nod to practicality really. The airline cannot keep track of Tens of thousands of FAs clicking in and out across the world in nonuniform manners. So they negotiate an amount per actual flight hour that is higher to include pay for an assumed time per flight got boarding and deplaning etc.
I don’t get it. If a Delta flight attendant is required to be at an airport, foreign or domestic, at a certain time, the airline has ways to ensure they are there. As long as they start work at the time required by the airline, pay them.
As a pilot, we are in the same boat as F/A's as far as how we are paid...we are paid after the door is closed and the brakes are released for pushback. While that might not sound fair, when contracts are negotiated, it is known (obviously) what the job entails and it is all factored into it.
I think someone said they should refuse to board until they (the UA f/a's) get paid for...
As a pilot, we are in the same boat as F/A's as far as how we are paid...we are paid after the door is closed and the brakes are released for pushback. While that might not sound fair, when contracts are negotiated, it is known (obviously) what the job entails and it is all factored into it.
I think someone said they should refuse to board until they (the UA f/a's) get paid for boarding...except they already agreed to a contract that says they don't get paid for that, so that's not a workable option.
Also, most airlines (mine definitely does) have work rules that have minimum pay based on the number of days or the the amount of hours on duty each day (duty starting at sign-in) that helps equalize the pay to make sure they are paid fairly.
For the union folks, if during their next contract negotiations they want pay for boarding time, then more than likely they'll end up giving up some pay for when they are actually flying, making it all a wash. The companies don't really nitpick on each little part of the contract, just what the overall total cost will be...how that cost is divided up, they don't care.
Big difference though is that Pilots aren't interfacing with angry flyers. The FAs get the brunt of customer anger when the flight is delayed.
Pilot here. That's not true at all. On any given flight, 99% of the passengers are fine. But when there are delays or anything like that, there is always the one person who tries to get snippy. And yes, the flight attendants do deal with them initially, but they then call us. So while we are in the front, doing our job and not getting paid, we have to come into the back to deal...
Pilot here. That's not true at all. On any given flight, 99% of the passengers are fine. But when there are delays or anything like that, there is always the one person who tries to get snippy. And yes, the flight attendants do deal with them initially, but they then call us. So while we are in the front, doing our job and not getting paid, we have to come into the back to deal with these issues as well. They might have to deal with them during the flight (when they are getting paid for it) but on the ground, they usually call us.
So during the preflight, typically starting about 45 minutes prior, when the pilots are working on everything to ensure the safe operation of the flight - weather, terrain, weight and balance, fueling, flight plan, and critical aircraft systems checks, (just to name a few) that's not really a "big" deal. Customer anger is the real threat cause that's the big difference. When the APU that is suppling conditioned air to the cabin when the passengers...
So during the preflight, typically starting about 45 minutes prior, when the pilots are working on everything to ensure the safe operation of the flight - weather, terrain, weight and balance, fueling, flight plan, and critical aircraft systems checks, (just to name a few) that's not really a "big" deal. Customer anger is the real threat cause that's the big difference. When the APU that is suppling conditioned air to the cabin when the passengers are loading catches on fire, I sure hope the FA's know how to run the checklist and get it extinguished before the back of the airplane blows up, because the pilots aren't on the clock and shouldn't have to worry about the safety of the plane or passengers until the parking brake is released.
Oh boy - where do we start.
The challenge with any compensation conversation/negotiation is that everything is done as tit-for-tat. The entire work rule is negotiated in parts until every component is agreed upon. Hence why the uniform requirement is affecting boarding pay.
In addition, with the announcement of increasing boarding time, I did not see any corresponding increase in check-in time. This means that Delta flight attendants now have less time to perform security-required...
Oh boy - where do we start.
The challenge with any compensation conversation/negotiation is that everything is done as tit-for-tat. The entire work rule is negotiated in parts until every component is agreed upon. Hence why the uniform requirement is affecting boarding pay.
In addition, with the announcement of increasing boarding time, I did not see any corresponding increase in check-in time. This means that Delta flight attendants now have less time to perform security-required checks and briefings before the passengers show up.
You know nothing. Obviously you don't work for an airline, much less for Delta.
Bottom line - unionization for flight attendants is necessary as a whole. Without the unions the job of being a flight attendant would be minimum wage. The unions keep the companies honest- even the ones without a union. Thank you Sara Nelson for going to bat for all flight attendants- it is hard when your efforts get undermined by the big corporations. However the boarding pay proves that the non unionized are taking the union...
Bottom line - unionization for flight attendants is necessary as a whole. Without the unions the job of being a flight attendant would be minimum wage. The unions keep the companies honest- even the ones without a union. Thank you Sara Nelson for going to bat for all flight attendants- it is hard when your efforts get undermined by the big corporations. However the boarding pay proves that the non unionized are taking the union seriously- finally. I hope all f/as get boarding pay.
Nope. My wife was a senior FA for a Canadian airline that became unionised. She and several others lost there job because of residency status. She is Dual national CAD/US and we live 20 minutes from YVR in the US , so really close to the airport. When the union came in the airline tested thier bartering ability by demanding all employees live in Canada, a rule that no other airline has. The union told...
Nope. My wife was a senior FA for a Canadian airline that became unionised. She and several others lost there job because of residency status. She is Dual national CAD/US and we live 20 minutes from YVR in the US , so really close to the airport. When the union came in the airline tested thier bartering ability by demanding all employees live in Canada, a rule that no other airline has. The union told the group of FAs to just give a Canadian address which is essentially committing fraud. They were all terminated and the union sat on their butts and did nothing. The residency requirements were then written into the contract post termination. CUPE, the Canadian FA union is in my opinion a waste and does nothing to protect the FAs . The FAs were much better off pre union
Fallacy argument much. One person doesn’t make a whole
@Bruce Unions have limited resources. The probably looked at their members and determined that they would do more damage to the group by fighting a change that might only impact a small fraction. For better or for worse, unions advocate for groups and not individuals.
Delta doesn't have one..and treats their FAs better than companies that have unionized FAs. Seems like the point you tried to make actually proves unions aren't always necessary
The solution to this would simply be for the AFA flight attendants to refuse to board flights until they get paid for that activity. They won't refuse the flights but rather only accept that their duties start once the aircraft is full boarded. Those airlines can then hire "dispatch crews" at lower pay scales whose only job would be to board the flights and then hand over to the flying crews.
It doesn't work that way. There are briefings and security checks that need to take place, and it needs to be performed by individuals certified by the FAA. So you are now suggesting that the airline needs to schedule a new set of employees just to do these checks and greet customers, and adding complexity to the process? Not going to happen.
Yes, exactly. It is called a "dispatch crew" and they are certified the same as flight attendants, except that they are paid significantly less and their role is to simply prepare the cabins and handle passenger boarding. The flying crew then come on board after all passengers and their duty commences at that time.
This was a fairly common thing in many Asian countries until the 1970s or so. Back then most airlines didn't allow...
Yes, exactly. It is called a "dispatch crew" and they are certified the same as flight attendants, except that they are paid significantly less and their role is to simply prepare the cabins and handle passenger boarding. The flying crew then come on board after all passengers and their duty commences at that time.
This was a fairly common thing in many Asian countries until the 1970s or so. Back then most airlines didn't allow married women to fly, so they had a pool of qualified personnel easily available and most women transitioned from flying crew to dispatch crew after their nuptials.
From European point of view: Union culture in the US is seriously messed up.
Delta is the best amongst the US carriers.
Pay increases, profit sharing, discussing potential probs w/ managers w/out fear of reprimand or attacks. Sara Nelson is pulling straws…she should be fired/ousted from union.
Delta does take care of their employees, I believe. It shows in their service to customers.
If Sara Nelson feels all f/as should get paid starting w/boarding, why hasn’t it happened under her watch? Don’t blame anyone or any company for...
Delta is the best amongst the US carriers.
Pay increases, profit sharing, discussing potential probs w/ managers w/out fear of reprimand or attacks. Sara Nelson is pulling straws…she should be fired/ousted from union.
Delta does take care of their employees, I believe. It shows in their service to customers.
If Sara Nelson feels all f/as should get paid starting w/boarding, why hasn’t it happened under her watch? Don’t blame anyone or any company for your lack of progress and leadership.
Could not agree more. Her issue with Delta’s policy change is that it is one more benefit she has not been able to implement. She is myopic and self-serving.
Clearly you don’t understand negotiations, the structure of the union and don’t know Sara.
Sara is fabulous. She lives and breathe for AFA members and flight attendants worldwide.
"What do you make of the response from United’s flight attendant union to Delta’s boarding pay?"
Here's what I make of it. The current compensation system, given a zero sum game, is more favorable to flight attendants who work long hauls, with a better ratio of compensated hours to worked hours. And those routes get poached on a seniority basis. This is all about Sara Nelson protecting her grouchy old hags.
This whole argument around “flights attendants should be paid for boarding” sounds great except most ppl, yourself included are ignoring the fact that while FA’s are not technically “on the clock” in terms of hourly pay, they’re absolutely getting paid for boarding…same with pre-departure and daily briefings, pre/post flight travel to and from hotels, etc. It’s all part of the total compensation package that their union negotiated for them. In this case DL just copied...
This whole argument around “flights attendants should be paid for boarding” sounds great except most ppl, yourself included are ignoring the fact that while FA’s are not technically “on the clock” in terms of hourly pay, they’re absolutely getting paid for boarding…same with pre-departure and daily briefings, pre/post flight travel to and from hotels, etc. It’s all part of the total compensation package that their union negotiated for them. In this case DL just copied their Union brethren but the total pay is essentially the same. AA/UA FAs will likely get boarding pay with their next agreement but it’s going to come out of another bucket, this isn’t just new money created out of thin air.
Exactly.
I was a Flight Attendant for 24 years with Delta.
There is a difference between "per diem" pay (which starts at sign in and ends at sign out for the entire 3 or 4 day trip), and "flight time" (which previously started when the door of the aircraft closes and ends when the door opens at the gate).
Per diem is around $3 an hour for the entire trip, so yes...FA's are being...
I was a Flight Attendant for 24 years with Delta.
There is a difference between "per diem" pay (which starts at sign in and ends at sign out for the entire 3 or 4 day trip), and "flight time" (which previously started when the door of the aircraft closes and ends when the door opens at the gate).
Per diem is around $3 an hour for the entire trip, so yes...FA's are being "paid" for boarding and deplaning, slightly less than $3. FA's *should* be paid full salary from the moment boarding begins, since they are truly "on".
Yeah right - we'll pay you for all of your work time if you want but I assure you that the max hourly rate will now be much much less than the current $72/hour!