United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby is probably the most outspoken person in the US airline industry, and he’s not afraid to share how he feels (or in the case of government affairs, say what he has to say to get ahead).
I’d say that Kirby has also become the single most important figure in the US airline industry, in terms of the impact he has on his airline. He’s really, really ambitious, and he knows how to tell a great narrative about his company (I mean, he has gone so far as to call United the best airline in the history of aviation).
He’s quite a contrast to Delta CEO Ed Bastian and American CEO Robert Isom, both of whom I’d argue have just continued the legacy of their predecessors (I’d rather be continuing Richard Anderson’s legacy than Doug Parker’s legacy, but I digress).
Anyway, Kirby appeared on the Airlines Confidential Podcast, hosted by Scott McCartney (which is worth listening to, by the way). As usual, he wasn’t afraid to speak out about his competitors, and his comments were quite something.
In this post:
United’s CEO thinks American is absolutely doomed
In recent years, we’ve of course seen United greatly improve its financial performance, while American’s financial performance has continued to worsen. It feels like a zero sum game, where United’s gains have been at American’s expense (though I don’t think it has to be that way).
Over time, Kirby hasn’t had issues kicking American while it’s down, arguing that this is a fundamental shift in the industry, and that there’s only room for two “premium” airlines in the United States. That brings us to this interview.
Kirby’s narrative nowadays is that the airline industry is no longer a commodities business, and that it’s about winning brand loyal customers. I’d agree with that, given that nowadays airlines earn much of their profits from their loyalty programs. But in some ways, he took that narrative a step further.
McCartney asked Kirby about where he sees the industry in five or 10 years, and he said there will be “two large, revenue diverse, full service, brand loyal airlines.” McCartney stopped him, to confirm he meant two and not three, and he said “there’s two today, and there will only be two,” and that “everyone else is sort of competing for spill traffic.” He went on to say that “other airlines are going to be competing on price, and I think collectively, they’ll be smaller than they are today.”
He also had some direct comments about American’s struggles in Chicago, as United has continued to gain market share there. He said he “wouldn’t want to play American’s hand” in Chicago, and he “knows when to hold ’em, and knows when to fold ’em.”
As usual, Kirby had nice things to say about Delta, and claimed that by most metrics, United has already overtaken Delta. He also stated that United is already on Delta’s financial level, if you take out the Newark situation plus Delta’s oil refinery business (which is a bit of a stretch, but okay).
Kirby of course started his career at America West, which became US Airways, which became American. He claims that he was the architect of the strategy through all of those deals, and that the goal with those mergers was to create a business that wins brand loyal customers, and that he used exactly the same playbook at United.
Kirby also made some interesting comments about loving the spotlight. He claimed that all airline CEOs love the spotlight, but unlike others, he’s willing to admit it. On the topic of airline CEOs and their public narrative, McCartney said the following, which I think is particularly relevant, given American’s struggles:
“I always think of an airline CEO as sort of the football coach. Your first job is motivating employees, right, and the CEOs I’ve seen over the years who lose labor, once you lose labor, it’s over. It may take a couple of years or whatever, but it’s over. So that public profile is really important to your employees and to your customers.”
Kirby talks a big game, but American is proving him right
I have huge respect for Scott Kirby, and I think he has done an incredible job at United, for shareholders, for customers, and for employees (minus the fact that they need to figure out their labor contracts, which is a major detail).
I think Kirby’s narrative around the permanence of the Delta and United advantage is more optimism rather than reality. It’s what he wants the narrative to be, just like he wants people to believe that United is the greatest airline in history. Kirby projects a lot of confidence and certainty when he communicates, and I think that’s one of his biggest strengths, even if I find it off-putting, at times.
Anyone who thinks that anything in the airline industry is permanent either has really bad memory, or just isn’t being honest (it’s just like Parker’s claim that American would never lose money again, and would always earn at least $3 billion in a bad year). A lot can change in the industry, and no airline has a permanent advantage.
A few days ago, I posed the question of who is going to save American, and when they’ll replace CEO Robert Isom. What’s so sad in all of this is that Kirby just keeps attacking American, pointing out how the airline has no strategy and is becoming increasingly irrelevant… and American just keeps proving him right.
The problem with Isom at American is that he’s neither some brilliant strategy guy, nor is he a football coach type, like McCartney references. McCartney is exactly right — “once you lose labor, it’s over,” and “it may take a couple of years or whatever, but it’s over.” Isom isn’t a football coach, he’s the captain of a lost ship with no navigation that’s just going deeper into the ocean. And maybe that sounds harsh, but c’mon, American lost money in Q3 2025, which is supposed to be one of the better quarters.
It doesn’t have to be this way. American has so many advantages that Kirby tries to pretend don’t exist. The airline has amazing joint venture partner hubs (in London, Sydney, and Tokyo), efficient hubs in places like Charlotte and Dallas, an amazing Latin America advantage via the Miami hub, etc.
American. Doesn’t. Have. To. Fail. I just wish we’d finally see American actually try to prove Kirby wrong, rather than just continuing to prove him right. These incremental improvements that American is making for the passenger experience are great, but American needs a much bigger reboot.
The current narrative among American executives is that everything they’re doing right now is to “focus on the customer.” The problem is, that’s not enough. American’s Chief Customer Officer has said that a reliable schedule is just “table stakes” at this point. But the reality is that even customer experience improvements are just “table stakes,” when you’re competing against Delta and United. What else ya got? There needs to be a bigger strategy, and employees need to be excited about it.
Anyway, Scott Kirby is right about American because American is letting him be right, and not because he’s actually right. I’ll get off my soap box now, and little would make me happier than for American to prove Kirby wrong.
Bottom line
During a recent interview on Airlines Confidential, United CEO Scott Kirby didn’t hold back with his take on the industry, as usual. Kirby attacking American is nothing new — he thinks there are “two large, revenue diverse, full service, brand loyal airlines” in the United States, and that American is too far gone, and that everyone other than Delta and United will just keep shrinking over time.
The way I see it, it doesn’t have to be this way, and I don’t think anything in the industry is as permanent as Kirby suggests, as much as he’d like for that to be the case. But based on how American is currently being run, it certainly doesn’t seem like American wants to prove Kirby wrong.
What do you make of Kirby’s comments on the industry?
People held captive by UA hubs in Newark and Houston tell me horror stories about United's "service," and the complete and total lack of anything approaching "customer service" when things go south. Delta's frequent flier program seems designed to extract as many points as possible from it's most loyal customers and God forbid anyone wants to use points to fly business class anywhere. But my last two experiences on Delta have been anything but positive,...
People held captive by UA hubs in Newark and Houston tell me horror stories about United's "service," and the complete and total lack of anything approaching "customer service" when things go south. Delta's frequent flier program seems designed to extract as many points as possible from it's most loyal customers and God forbid anyone wants to use points to fly business class anywhere. But my last two experiences on Delta have been anything but positive, although the mess in Newark and Philadelphia with the ATC system is largely beyond their control. I wonder if lounge access with the Amex Platinum card has anything to do with how people feel about Delta - because it certainly makes a five-hour delay more palatable.
I will say that I've had some atrocious flights on American, but I've also had outstanding service with memorable experiences. At least when I write customer service, I get a response referencing the issue, which is more than I can say for the other two "premium" carriers. Let's face it, nobody wants to spend 16 hours in the back of a 787 between the west coast and Australia or Hong Kong - it's a miserable experience in coach for anyone taller than 5' 6" when the pitch is 30 inches or less and the flight is full.
I continue to choose American not just because of the infinitely superior frequent flier program that actually rewards good customers, but because I can see continuing improvement in the service levels. Their international service has improved dramatically since Covid - not to the point where it's on a par with the Asian carriers, but certainly it's equal to that of most European carriers.
The constant browbeating of American in these pages really makes me want to discount what the authors say about anything else industry related. All airlines suck, but some suck worse than others!
Calling United Premium is hilarious. I didn't realize waiting 6 hours to get off the plane after landing at EWR (during normal operations) was a premium experience. Kirby is delusional, as always. United is the last resort and American is slowly working it's way to competing for that title with United. I think the only US based airline that could claim they are a premium airline in the US is Delta. However, all of them...
Calling United Premium is hilarious. I didn't realize waiting 6 hours to get off the plane after landing at EWR (during normal operations) was a premium experience. Kirby is delusional, as always. United is the last resort and American is slowly working it's way to competing for that title with United. I think the only US based airline that could claim they are a premium airline in the US is Delta. However, all of them fall miles short of competing with the Middle Eastern 3 or Singapore Airlines. I
My wife and I love American Airlines and it is the best airline for us by far, and on top of that we absolutely hate United airlines, bottom airline on our list of 6 we travel with
As an executive platinum member I am quite pleased with American and only fly United as a last resort. Haven’t had the greatest experiences with United. Delta is consistent but their sky pesos are completely devalued.
Watch what they do, not what they say. Team Kirby has accomplished a lot in ten years.
what they did in the 3rd quarter was deliver the worst revenue performance of the big 4 - the most capacity additions and the worst RASM performance - which lines up perfectly with their stated goals to drive out competitors and to gain market share internationally.
We get what UA has done over the past 10 years; you don't need to keep patting yourself on the back
We also get that today is measured by...
what they did in the 3rd quarter was deliver the worst revenue performance of the big 4 - the most capacity additions and the worst RASM performance - which lines up perfectly with their stated goals to drive out competitors and to gain market share internationally.
We get what UA has done over the past 10 years; you don't need to keep patting yourself on the back
We also get that today is measured by today's results and the most recent data.
UA is responding by reigning in its aggressive growth and expansion which we all knew would have to happen given that UA execs have repeatedly said they want to deliver financial results in line with DL.
DL is now $1 billion in net income ahead through 3 quarters and DL delivered much better RASM performance even though it added more than half of the capacity UA added systemwide.
UA has no choice but to dial down its lofty goals. It's talk w/ align w/ its actions but those two are markedly out of line right now.
What metric are you referring to? YOY RASM increase/decrease? Nominal RASM, TRASM? Are these nominal values mileage adjusted? Without data your assertions are meaningless and often completely incorrect. And one data point or quarter does not make a trend especially when there was an exogenous event/shock. Nice try though. Poor tT.
PRASM change - which does not need to be mileage adjusted to compare YOY performance between the same airline unless there were marked differences in stage length - which there were not with any of the big 3.
I know it is impossible for you to admit that UA screwed up but they did. They have been bellowing for years about trying to take out every competitor except DL even as they said they are...
PRASM change - which does not need to be mileage adjusted to compare YOY performance between the same airline unless there were marked differences in stage length - which there were not with any of the big 3.
I know it is impossible for you to admit that UA screwed up but they did. They have been bellowing for years about trying to take out every competitor except DL even as they said they are performing just like DL. They have throw massively more amount of capacity into their network than any other airline since covid and it has now come back to bite - hard.
This massive growth that you love to fixate on is over.
and one data point IS changing UA's decisions; their execs have already decided the growth has to slow.
Finally, we know what you are referring to exactly. Of course it's better for PRASM or TRASM to increase YOY, but it is meaningless without looking to those relative to CASM (PRASM - CASM). As you can see from below:
In Q3 UAL lost $0.02/ASM & DAL lost $1.88/ASM
In 25 UAL lost $0.34/ASM & DAL lost $1.85/ASM
UAL's Q3 deteriorated 0.37/ASM & DAL deteriorated $0.34/ASM YOY
UAL's 2025 deteriorated 0.24//ASM & DAL...
Finally, we know what you are referring to exactly. Of course it's better for PRASM or TRASM to increase YOY, but it is meaningless without looking to those relative to CASM (PRASM - CASM). As you can see from below:
In Q3 UAL lost $0.02/ASM & DAL lost $1.88/ASM
In 25 UAL lost $0.34/ASM & DAL lost $1.85/ASM
UAL's Q3 deteriorated 0.37/ASM & DAL deteriorated $0.34/ASM YOY
UAL's 2025 deteriorated 0.24//ASM & DAL deteriorated $0.13/ASM YOY
So UAL loses far less $/ASM than DAL, but UAL's PRASM-CASM/ASM deteriorated a bit more YOY than DAL.
Below are the numbers. Feel free to check my math.
Q3 2025
UAL PRASM: 15.80 - CASM 15.82 = -0.02 cents/ASM
DAL PRASM: 17.08 - CASM 18.96 = -1.88 cents/ASM
Q3 2024
UAL PRASM: 16.63 - CASM 16.28 = 0.35 cents/ASM
DAL PRASM: 17.21 - CASM 18.75 = -1.54 cents/ASM
9 mos 2025
UAL PRASM: 16.00 - CASM 16.34 = -0.34 cents/ASM
DAL PRASM: 17.26 - CASM 19.11 = -1.85 cents/ASM
9 mos 2024
UAL PRASM: 16.55 - CASM 16.65 = -0.10 cents/ASM
DAL PRASM: 17.60 - CASM 19.32 = -1.72 cents/ASM
except you, once again, can't grasp that CASM goes with TRASM, not PRASM.
we've been down this road before.
you just can't bring yourself to admit that UA screwed the pooch in its 3rd quarter revenue performance.
DL added plenty of capacity but simply didn't jump off the cliff as UA did
your Teflon coating is peeling
That's hilarious. CASM can go with either PRASM or TRASM. Please stop pretending to be an analyst.
of course it can.
but if you can't figure out that CASM is for the entire airline while PRASM measures just passenger revenue, then you have no idea what YOU are talking about.
but let's face it. UA is the one that has dumped capacity into the US and global system for years even while saying it would drive weaker competitors out of the market.
DL clearly held its ground in key competitive markets...
of course it can.
but if you can't figure out that CASM is for the entire airline while PRASM measures just passenger revenue, then you have no idea what YOU are talking about.
but let's face it. UA is the one that has dumped capacity into the US and global system for years even while saying it would drive weaker competitors out of the market.
DL clearly held its ground in key competitive markets across its network and delivered far better results. AA and WN both were much more measured in their capacity growth and delivered better revenue performance than UA.
The arrogance coming out of Willis Tower has been and is still amazing.
UA cooked itself. AA will be just fine.
UA will not achieve DL comparable levels of financial performance as long as UA execs think it is their role in life to eliminate every other competitor.
DL is clearly tired of UA's di23r4 swinging and undoubtedly has a few more LAX-HKG and LAX-ORD" exercises in its playbook to help UA realize the error of its ways.
I am liking the new industry dynamic.
rebel,”What metric are you referring to?”
TD, “PRASM change”
Rebel,”PRASM - CASM: UAL Q3 deteriorated 0.37/ASM & DAL deteriorated $0.34/ASM YOY”
TD,”CASM goes with TRASM, not PRASM.”
Rebel, “That's hilarious. CASM can go with either PRASM or TRASM.”
TD,”Of course it can…UA cooked itself. AA will be just fine.”
UA has twice as much cash flow, free cash flow & capex this year than AAL.
‘Analyst’? I think not. Poor tiny Tim.
yes, I referred to PRASM change which clearly shows UA in the absolute worst position in the US industry for the 3rd quarter.
But since you can't stand to see UA in second place in anything, let alone last place, you manipulate data to avoid reality.
CASM goes with TRASM, not PRASM.
Get back w/ us when you can handle that reality.
rebel, ”What metric are you referring to?”
TD, “PRASM change”
Rebel, ”PRASM - CASM: UAL Q3 deteriorated 0.37/ASM & DAL deteriorated $0.34/ASM YOY”
TD, ”CASM goes with TRASM, not PRASM.”
Rebel, “That's hilarious. CASM can go with either PRASM or TRASM.”
TD, ”Of course it (CASM) can
TD, "CASM goes with TRASM, not PRASM"
What I see is two things the AA Board of Directors are paying attention to the CEO comments by UAL. They are also concerned of an Elliott investment/ Carl Icahn trying to shake up management. I see a potential Southwest airlines and Americans Airlines merger based on Southwest not an international airlines. The market share DOJ concerns can be addressed. It will allow AA to say to UAL so you were saying?
I am glad others are still tracking with this article.
Regarding your proposed or potential merger between AA and WN, that would be impossible unless the DOJ completely gives up on any form of antitrust enforcement for the US airline industry.
AA and WN share hubs at the same airports or in the metros of Baltimore/Washington, Chicago, Dallas and Phoenix.
If there is any merger between any of the big 4, the only one that...
I am glad others are still tracking with this article.
Regarding your proposed or potential merger between AA and WN, that would be impossible unless the DOJ completely gives up on any form of antitrust enforcement for the US airline industry.
AA and WN share hubs at the same airports or in the metros of Baltimore/Washington, Chicago, Dallas and Phoenix.
If there is any merger between any of the big 4, the only one that would pass muster is DL/WN - and that is very, very unlikely to happen.
Now that WN has downsized ATL to just a spoke, DL and WN have no overlapping hubs or focus cities.
but mergers won't fix what ails AA and WN - which is a lack of revenue relative to the costs each takes to generate that revenue. in fact, that is what is wrong w/ all of the airlines except for DL and UA. and UA is working w/ a labor cost advantage while also pushing down its revenue performance as it attempts to drive other carriers out of business or markets. UA's strategies are not sustainable if it wants to attain to DL levels of profitability which its execs say they want.
There is still about 20% of US domestic airline capacity that is not flown by the big 4 so there is considerable opportunity to consolidate within that group of airlines. It is also more likely than not that the big 4 will continue to adjust their strategies to push their profits up by removing lower performing capacity.
And AA and WN are most likely to do the heavy lifting in that regard among the big 4 with WN already taken big steps - but whether those cuts are enough will be seen in the coming year.
TD sure stays on message even if it requires tortured non-sequiturs to do it. I for one hope that DL/SW merger gets approved. That would be fun to watch.
I noticed you dropped the PANYNJ data out of your repertoire. Just another one of your predictions that turned out to be completely wrong. Poor tT.
As a consumer, I don't want any of the big 4 to combine w/ each other because it will substantially eliminate competition.
that still doesn't change that AA and WN are both treading water; I believe WN has a better chance of restructuring itself and "pushing up" into the ranks of being a global carrier than AA does of fixing its problems.
WN and DL are still the only possible combinations of the big 4...
As a consumer, I don't want any of the big 4 to combine w/ each other because it will substantially eliminate competition.
that still doesn't change that AA and WN are both treading water; I believe WN has a better chance of restructuring itself and "pushing up" into the ranks of being a global carrier than AA does of fixing its problems.
WN and DL are still the only possible combinations of the big 4 that don't involve overlap in hub metros but DL and WN combined would have more than 40% of the US domestic market.
AA could work divided between DL and UA and that might be Kirby's endgame. DL could take DCA, DFW and MIA and keep them basically as they are. DL could take ORD and reduce it to a smaller focus city type operation, placing UA. UA could take CLT. either DL or UA could take PHX and PHL and keep them as is or reduce them in size. and, of course, UA would love to have AA's NYC operation.
Not sure it could happen but one of AA or WN will not likely remain as they are in 5 years; DL and UA are doing well enough financially that they can ratchet up their pressure on the LCC/ULCCs to either AA or WN.
as for PANYNJ data, it shows at best that DL and UA are at parity in terms of passenger boardings. UA had an advantage for parts of the year while DL still is solidly more ahead of UA in domestic and in total number of flights.
DL will start JFK to Asia (south and east Asia) and in doing so will eliminate any advantage UA has in the NYC market in international coverage.
and alot regarding NYC to Asia depends on resolution of the Russia-Ukraine war. DL has plenty of A350s on line and coming now while UA's tiny little 787s w/ increased weight can make it deep into Asia again if Russia airspace restrictions end.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine needs to end for lots of reasons -mostly the people of Ukraine. But it wouldn't hurt if aviation is a beneficiary.
We can get to 300. One more please. do it for Ben.
TD says, "PANYNJ data, it shows at best that DL and UA are at parity in terms of passenger boardings"
Exactly. You previously and incorrectly claimed DL had taken a permanent lead due to the EWR/FAA meltdown and was never giving it up. Too funny.
Now TD says, "DL will start JFK to Asia (south and east Asia) and in doing so will eliminate any advantage UA has in the NYC market in international coverage."
UA has a 40% advantage on int'l passengers. Dream on.
thanks for sticking w/ the conversation.
UA has obtained passenger share PARITY after months of share losses to DL which still puts them negative year to date and on a rolling 12 month basis. Only a UA fan would ignore that UA is smaller than DL in number of flights and is at best at parity in total numbers of passengers carried, metrics UA once held in addition to total ASMs and total local revenue.
...thanks for sticking w/ the conversation.
UA has obtained passenger share PARITY after months of share losses to DL which still puts them negative year to date and on a rolling 12 month basis. Only a UA fan would ignore that UA is smaller than DL in number of flights and is at best at parity in total numbers of passengers carried, metrics UA once held in addition to total ASMs and total local revenue.
UA's NYC advantage is not in flying to a bunch of European destinations on narrowbodies including MAXs that have no premium cabins; UA's advantage is that it flies to India, the Arab Middle East and E. Asia which DL doesn't do. Those regions all generate huge amounts of ASMs which is why that metric will fall as soon as DL starts adding JFK-Asia flights since it already operates 20% more total flights and has narrowed the ASM gap.
DL will return to all of those regions from NYC with its own metal and with a stronger JV than UA.
If DL says it now is factoring in what credit card customers want in considering routes, then developing NYC to Asia will happen - precisely because DL already has an advantage in credit card revenue which they are only going to build on.
and DL already has the advantage domestically and to S. America via the Latam JV which UA cannot duplicate.
I'm just pointing out another of your many predictions that predictably turned out to be completely incorrect. You thought the EWR/FAA meltdown damage was permanent. It wasn't, and the Q4 results will likely confirm this.
More to the point I think much of Kirby's hyperbole is trying to manifest what he thinks will happen. You on the other hand seem to apply wishful thinking as the competitive landscape is changing. Overall, DL is still in...
I'm just pointing out another of your many predictions that predictably turned out to be completely incorrect. You thought the EWR/FAA meltdown damage was permanent. It wasn't, and the Q4 results will likely confirm this.
More to the point I think much of Kirby's hyperbole is trying to manifest what he thinks will happen. You on the other hand seem to apply wishful thinking as the competitive landscape is changing. Overall, DL is still in the lead and its market cap demonstrates that, but aircraft are the factories of the airline business. If the economy holds up UA definitely wins with its superior order book. If the economy tanks then everyone is going to have to make cuts, but the weaker players will suffer most possibly altering the competitive landscape. Having $12B in cash offers more options than $3B. Both UA & DL have plenty of older aircraft they could retire, but as Covid demonstrated that can be a mistake. Storage of some aircraft might again prove prudent. The airline biz is never dull.
I think there are many reasons for Kirby to be confident. Time will tell.
if you would spend a little less time trying to prove people wrong and a little time looking at data and trendlines, you would realize I very much am right.
UA is weaker relative to DL in NYC than it was 5 years ago. DL has not and will not overtake UA in the next year in every category but they have in flights - and UA can't overcome that even if it gets back...
if you would spend a little less time trying to prove people wrong and a little time looking at data and trendlines, you would realize I very much am right.
UA is weaker relative to DL in NYC than it was 5 years ago. DL has not and will not overtake UA in the next year in every category but they have in flights - and UA can't overcome that even if it gets back into JFK with the reported dozen or so flights per day.
UA was also the largest domestic airline not that long ago but has lost that title as well and cannot recover it based on the number of flights it operates.
Kirby incessantly thinks he knows what is going to happen in the industry but he has been unable to slow DL's growth in NYC and LAX which continues.
DL is highly methodical and also patient. You and Kirby are fixated on short term metrics which is why you can't see the advancement DL has made.
and you still can't grasp that orders mean nothing. Putting them profitably into service matters. UA will add more new aircraft than any other US airline in 2025 but their profits will trail DL's by at least $1 billion. They know they run a business and their growth strategy is not working - as I fully predicted. DL is growing on a more measured basis and making its growth work far better.
DL can is getting airplanes from Airbus and Boeing and is still growing - just at a slightly slower pace - but faster than AA, WN and the smaller airlines. and DL is maintaining or growing its revenue performance which most certainly includes non-transportation revenue where DL does the best in the industry.
It is precisely because you can see that DL's plan is working that you can't admit that UA's is not.
Kirby and you have one thing in common, bold predictions, but his have come true for ten years and yours usually don't, like your predictably incorrect NYC call. Instead of looking for the truth you seek any data points that seem to bolster your gospel of Delta. It is amusing watching your lies, damned lies & statistics modus operandi. Check your premises.
Everyone knew United has had the best route structure in the world, but...
Kirby and you have one thing in common, bold predictions, but his have come true for ten years and yours usually don't, like your predictably incorrect NYC call. Instead of looking for the truth you seek any data points that seem to bolster your gospel of Delta. It is amusing watching your lies, damned lies & statistics modus operandi. Check your premises.
Everyone knew United has had the best route structure in the world, but that it was underdeveloped and mismanaged for decades. Munoz, Kirby et al have done an amazing job of methodically growing the airline while paying down debt (4B in 2025 alone) while investing more in capex and earning more OCF and FCF than any US airline for the last two years. Yes, FCF will be down if the 29 or so 787s and 80+ narrow body aircraft are delivered by the end of next year, but Moody's predicts FCF will still exceed $1.5B in 2026 while they upgraded UAL to one notch below investment grade.
The Air Show just launched a great episode, What's Wrong with Delta, part 1, that nails much of what people have unsuccessfully been trying to tell you.
Kirby has yet to match DL's revenue or profit performance even w/ a major cost advantage.
If UA had the best route system and could vanquish competition, it wouldn't be dumping capacity into the market and hurting itself worse than anyone else.
AA has got to be laughing all the way to the bank. Kirby will bleed UA dry in order to try to get AA out of ORD.
DL will still sit on UA in NYC and from LAX.
Op Cash Flow/FCF in $b since 1/1/24
UA: 16.6/7.1
DL: 14.1/6.7
AA: 7.4/3.9
While UA spent $2B and $5B more in capex than DAL & AAL respectively and has $3B less net debt than DAL.
What an 'analyst' you are, NOT! Poor delusional tT.
I've been at this airline game 50 years. Lack of hubris is what should scare you. Such arrogance, without fail---ALWAYS leads to crash & burn. As does following trendy hiring practices that fly in the face of reality. Such overconfidence will not playwell, but rather turn United into a Vulcan bomber. 2 ejections seats for the brass, a door and best wishes for all others.
funny how you look below.
Rebel does a better job than me.
They use data. Tim Dunn never responds with any data on FCF or net debt
Tim responds with "And, more significantly, DL is gaining share in major markets and attacking UA's"
"The fact, though, is that UA is not industry leading in much of anything except seat miles flown and fuel burned "
No ability to reply to anything Rebel...
funny how you look below.
Rebel does a better job than me.
They use data. Tim Dunn never responds with any data on FCF or net debt
Tim responds with "And, more significantly, DL is gaining share in major markets and attacking UA's"
"The fact, though, is that UA is not industry leading in much of anything except seat miles flown and fuel burned "
No ability to reply to anything Rebel said much less anything mentioned below about the difference between Free Cash Flow and net income.
Tim has no F*ing idea
Dude. Go to bed. You're pathetic and your responses are a waste of everyone's time.
what. an Fn. Loser.
You can't stand that Ben saved the evidence that shows that you really did say that cash flow is on the income statement.
Your cubicle mate can't save you.
And, more importantly, you can't save Scott Kirby from the reality which everyone else can see - and which you are incapable of admitting.
You and rebel are masters of manipulating anything that dares challenge UA and Kirby's halo that they are...
what. an Fn. Loser.
You can't stand that Ben saved the evidence that shows that you really did say that cash flow is on the income statement.
Your cubicle mate can't save you.
And, more importantly, you can't save Scott Kirby from the reality which everyone else can see - and which you are incapable of admitting.
You and rebel are masters of manipulating anything that dares challenge UA and Kirby's halo that they are the world's smartest airlines running the world's best CEO.
there are DOZENS of people just on this thread that see Kirby and UA for who they are.
You can live in a world of denial and anger at anyone that speaks the truth but the world really knows.
walk away, Max.
you are sick and clearly can't realize when you have lost.
we realize you fixate on me rather than the airline industry but none of your babble changes that UA absolutely blew it in the 3rd quarter culminating a year of strategic disasters and they are pulling back.
Reach out and give rebel a hug.. this is really difficult as he has to face the reality that it is UA that screwed up even as Kirby tries to throw shade at AA.
People above said it best. Pride cometh before the fall and Kirby is headed for a very big fall.
UA started down that path with its massive schedule changes and withdrawals from markets, handing market after market to DL.
UA failed. Rebel has failed defending them. You have failed - as you already do - because all you can do is lash out at other people who don't agree with you or rebel.
Poor tT. You are more to be pitied than scorned. Best of luck.
I'm not here for luck.
I am here for speaking the truth and for shining light in the darkness in which you live
Delusions of grandeur flitting from one airline blog to another preaching from your gospel of Delta. It doesn't appear you have gained many disciples. Do you ever ask yourself, why? Poor little fella. Good luck.
Delta has nothing to do with this and I haven't mentioned them.
Put the crack pipe down and accept the United Airlines you want doesn't exist and never will exist.
They took a huge step backwards this week as the reality of their aggressive overexpansion which you worship comes to an end.
oh, yeah, I did accurately mention that DL isn't having to walk away from multiple markets which means that DL really is a...
Delta has nothing to do with this and I haven't mentioned them.
Put the crack pipe down and accept the United Airlines you want doesn't exist and never will exist.
They took a huge step backwards this week as the reality of their aggressive overexpansion which you worship comes to an end.
oh, yeah, I did accurately mention that DL isn't having to walk away from multiple markets which means that DL really is a better run company and airline which I know is devastating for you to hear, let alone admit.
TD says, "Delta has nothing to do with this and I haven't mentioned them."
Just two of TD's posts prior TD said, "UA started down that path with its massive schedule changes and withdrawals from markets, handing market after market to DL."
People use projection to protect their egos by unconsciously attributing their own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts, feelings, and traits to others. By projecting these qualities onto someone else, individuals can avoid confronting or...
TD says, "Delta has nothing to do with this and I haven't mentioned them."
Just two of TD's posts prior TD said, "UA started down that path with its massive schedule changes and withdrawals from markets, handing market after market to DL."
People use projection to protect their egos by unconsciously attributing their own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts, feelings, and traits to others. By projecting these qualities onto someone else, individuals can avoid confronting or accepting them within themselves, thus maintaining a more favorable self-image and reducing anxiety or guilt.
“ You can't stand that Ben saved the evidence that shows that you really did say that cash flow is on the income statement.”
As proven
You’re just an idiotic loser
And you have no idea what Ffc is vs net income and you’ve proven it here today
Tim
Walk away. You’re an IGNORANT loser and always have been.
So cute,Tim
I must’ve missed the data you used to retort anything I said…
Oh wait
Tim
You truly can’t reply to anything rebel or I said about anything with data
Your silence is golden
And you’re an idiot
I think Georgia has a new dunce ;)
as usual, you can't even get the basic facts right.
feel free to provide proof that I live i Georgia. I don't.
you hypocritically argue about me using data when you make up your own reality and "facts" 99% of the time.
Rebel at least is pleasant and uses "his" data - he just ignores anything that dares challenge the notion that UA is anything less than the greatest thing that ever happened to...
as usual, you can't even get the basic facts right.
feel free to provide proof that I live i Georgia. I don't.
you hypocritically argue about me using data when you make up your own reality and "facts" 99% of the time.
Rebel at least is pleasant and uses "his" data - he just ignores anything that dares challenge the notion that UA is anything less than the greatest thing that ever happened to aviation.
This article now sits on Ben's 3rd page - and yet if you or he opened your eyes even the slightest little bit, you would see that the vast majority of comments that are from non-regular users validate the low opinion most posters have of Scott Kirby.
Kirby is smart and he does learn but he has an uncanny ability to fail to see himself and his companies for what they are in the now; it is great that he learns what he did wrong a decade longer but real leaders see their faults in real time and don't make ridiculous mistakes.
UA's testosterone driven network strategy was smacked down by the market and Wall Street this year. Many of us saw it coming even though UA fans like rebel have staked their identity on UA's aggressive growth plan.
DL managed to grow its system by 4% in the 3rd quarter and maintain industry acceptable RASM while UA grew at 7% and trashed its revenue production.
AA and WN grew at much slower rates.
UA simply was unwilling to cut the underperforming routes which I have said for years they have but they are being forced to do it in mass now.
UA's massive growth and size-focused strategy didn't work. DL grew but at a much more measured rate and is succeeding at pushing UA out of far more markets even as UA downsizes in the markets that DL itself pulled back in - proof that those markets were doing poorly for UA even before DL acted.
DL is growing in major UA markets such as HKG-LAX and ORD-LAX and in getting a much stronger position in markets like Scandinavia, Greece, and Africa as UA pulls back.
I was right years ago as to where this was going but you two are incapable of admitting it.
Others see it, though and that is all that matters.
TD,"he just ignores anything that dares challenge...
Pure projection. You fixate on one quarter. Here is Kirby's whole UA tenure. Sorry, your tired dog don't hunt.
Since 2016 after Kirby’s arrival UA has grown from 102 to 140 int’l destinations while DL shrank from 105 to 94 int’l destinations. UA overtook DL in the Atlantic and Latin America and is larger in the Pacific than DL & AA combined.
TATL destinations 2016/2025 : UA: 22/42 , DL:...
TD,"he just ignores anything that dares challenge...
Pure projection. You fixate on one quarter. Here is Kirby's whole UA tenure. Sorry, your tired dog don't hunt.
Since 2016 after Kirby’s arrival UA has grown from 102 to 140 int’l destinations while DL shrank from 105 to 94 int’l destinations. UA overtook DL in the Atlantic and Latin America and is larger in the Pacific than DL & AA combined.
TATL destinations 2016/2025 : UA: 22/42 , DL: 32/34, AA: 21/20
TPAC destinations 2016/2025: UA: 23/32, DL: 15/8 , AA: 8/7
TLAT Destinations 2016/2025: AA: 92/97, UA: 57/66 , DL: 58/52
and you once again fixate on size even while touting cherrypicked financials, the totality of which show that UA has not eliminated the profit gap with DL and has not gotten to market cap parity with DL even w/ a labor cost advantage that is worth hundreds of millions if not a billion dollars per year.
And you also can't and won't acknowledge that UA execs really do run UA as a for profit business...
and you once again fixate on size even while touting cherrypicked financials, the totality of which show that UA has not eliminated the profit gap with DL and has not gotten to market cap parity with DL even w/ a labor cost advantage that is worth hundreds of millions if not a billion dollars per year.
And you also can't and won't acknowledge that UA execs really do run UA as a for profit business so growth and size are secondary to reporting DL comparable financial results whcih UA execs have stated as a goal.
That is why ARN and DSS are disappearing entirely for UA's route map - which is a net reduction in cities served compared to DL.
and DL is going to add more longhaul destinations in 2026 than UA and do so much more profitably and w/o tanking DL's RASM performance.
UA reported the worst RASM growth in the Atlantic and to Latin America in the industry; they will be cutting back routes and are not interested in your incessant bragging points.
TD says, "That is why ARN and DSS are disappearing entirely for UA's route map - which is a net reduction in cities served compared to DL."
Absolutely and demonstrably incorrect. From EWR alone the UA TATL destinations are going up from 32 in 2025 to 36 in 2026, and UA management is doing exactly what you claim they don't = maximizing profit through schedule changes. Nice try though.
ARN was a 3x/week 757 flight...
TD says, "That is why ARN and DSS are disappearing entirely for UA's route map - which is a net reduction in cities served compared to DL."
Absolutely and demonstrably incorrect. From EWR alone the UA TATL destinations are going up from 32 in 2025 to 36 in 2026, and UA management is doing exactly what you claim they don't = maximizing profit through schedule changes. Nice try though.
ARN was a 3x/week 757 flight to the main hub of SAS who left the Star Alliance. How will UA's network manage? Poor tT.
you truly don't understand the term "relative"
and UA's TATL operation from EWR is shrinking more than DL's from JFK.
you do realize that SK isn't even in the DL JV yet? It is laughable that you blame an alliance switch for UA walking away from two destinations that aren't even to DL JV partner hubs - and yet UA is pulling down service to Star JV carrier hubs.
bob and deflect...
you truly don't understand the term "relative"
and UA's TATL operation from EWR is shrinking more than DL's from JFK.
you do realize that SK isn't even in the DL JV yet? It is laughable that you blame an alliance switch for UA walking away from two destinations that aren't even to DL JV partner hubs - and yet UA is pulling down service to Star JV carrier hubs.
bob and deflect all day long and into the 400th reply but the verdict is in: UA simply mismanaged its growth compared to AA and DL.
I said, "How about DL from JFK?"
TD says, "you truly don't understand the term "relative" and UA's TATL operation from EWR is shrinking more than DL's from JFK."
As always you offer no data. Looks like DL is only serving 30 European destinations in 2026 down from 33 in 2025 while UA is going from 32 in 2025 to 36 European destinations so as always UA's network is doing 'relatively' better than DL. Poor tT.
show your work
and shrinking is not just about destinations.
Since you and Max get your Cirium subscriptions as part of your employment with UA, you should be able to tell us the change in CAPACITY via ASMs which Max loves to tell us is how capacity is measured.
...Of course, you can't do that until schedules are loaded - but I still stand by my statement that UA's capacity will be lower esp. in premium cabins.
and shrinking is not just about destinations.
Since you and Max get your Cirium subscriptions as part of your employment with UA, you should be able to tell us the change in CAPACITY via ASMs which Max loves to tell us is how capacity is measured.
Of course, you can't do that until schedules are loaded - but I still stand by my statement that UA's capacity will be lower esp. in premium cabins.
and it is also noteworthy that UA is flying even more flights on domestic 737 MAXs to Europe; it is no surprise that RASM is going down when you don't offer premium cabins - no Polaris at all and no premium economy comparable to what UA offers on its widebodies.
It's in articles just like ARN & DSS terminations. You show no #s or work. Here is some interesting information from the 10Qs.
Atlantic Operating revenue Q3/2025 in $m
UAL: 3,486/8,755
DAL: 3,423/8,353
you do have a point that DSS was not served from EWR but rather IAD.
and you still are fixated on dots on a route map.
and, finally, the small size between DL and UA TATL revenues is pathetically small given that UA serves DXB and DEL and has a larger presence in TLV.
these numbers highlight just how poorly UA is able to turn its larger size into more revenue - and profits.
...
you do have a point that DSS was not served from EWR but rather IAD.
and you still are fixated on dots on a route map.
and, finally, the small size between DL and UA TATL revenues is pathetically small given that UA serves DXB and DEL and has a larger presence in TLV.
these numbers highlight just how poorly UA is able to turn its larger size into more revenue - and profits.
Given that UA employs thousands more employees than DL and has a hundreds of million dollar/yr labor cost advantage - far exceeding the FCF difference - UA is, well, well behind DL in financial performance across the Atlantic...
which is all the reason why you should be scared to death about DL's growth across the Pacific using larger and far more efficient and cargo-capable aircraft.
btw, how about you post the increase in DL cargo revenue in 3Q2025 compared to UA?.
and while you and others poo-poo any data that doesn't show that UA is in first place, DL made $675 million in the 2nd quarter across the Atlantic - which includes Africa while UA made $300 million less according to DOT data.
Somehow, it isn't hard to see how UA lags DL by $1 billion in profits year to date based on SEC-filed profitability.
As much as you and others want to argue against it,...
and while you and others poo-poo any data that doesn't show that UA is in first place, DL made $675 million in the 2nd quarter across the Atlantic - which includes Africa while UA made $300 million less according to DOT data.
Somehow, it isn't hard to see how UA lags DL by $1 billion in profits year to date based on SEC-filed profitability.
As much as you and others want to argue against it, DOT data very much explains the scale differences in profitability if not pretty close to actual profitability if added up for all regions. Note that the totals in DOT for the 3rd quarter aren't that much different from what DL and UA reported on their system earnings report.
DL just runs a better business and airline.
Those destination totals make it obvious you completely made up the 'relative' TATL BS like so many other of your demonstrably false assertions. I'm just surprised that UA's CF/FCF exceeds DL's by so much even during their elevated growth Capex. No wonder Scott Kirby is so confident.
Good luck tT.
no, I was adding the airports added and dropped... in addition to the fact that DSS is served (or was) from IAD, I forgot about GLA - probably because I don't consider flying domestic configured aircraft as real TATL service. When WN starts TATL service, they will offer more than that.
and for the 66,000th time, when you don't pay your people industry leading salaries or DL comparable profit sharing, it isn't hard to keep...
no, I was adding the airports added and dropped... in addition to the fact that DSS is served (or was) from IAD, I forgot about GLA - probably because I don't consider flying domestic configured aircraft as real TATL service. When WN starts TATL service, they will offer more than that.
and for the 66,000th time, when you don't pay your people industry leading salaries or DL comparable profit sharing, it isn't hard to keep your money in the bank.
I am not sure if anyone else is reading but I kind of enjoy this banter with you.
What cubicle can I find you at in the Sears tower or whatever it is called?
Scott Kirby is acting like Steve Wolf. AA CEO Bob Crandall told Wolf he would never be promoted beyond Vice President/Western Division at AA.
Wolf ran 4 airlines (Flying Tigers, Republic, United, and US Air) with various levels of success, to show Crandall how wrong he was.
Kirby got shown the door AA, because the Board was tired of Kirby asking repeatedly when Doug Parker was going to either retire or give up the CEO...
Scott Kirby is acting like Steve Wolf. AA CEO Bob Crandall told Wolf he would never be promoted beyond Vice President/Western Division at AA.
Wolf ran 4 airlines (Flying Tigers, Republic, United, and US Air) with various levels of success, to show Crandall how wrong he was.
Kirby got shown the door AA, because the Board was tired of Kirby asking repeatedly when Doug Parker was going to either retire or give up the CEO position while remaining Chairman.
Further, there is a lot of speculation that United will move its corporate HQ and operations center from downtown Chicago to a tract of land next to Denver International. The acreage is similar to AA's corporate campus near DFW.
It's easier to lose the title of "Chicago's Hometown Airline," if you have driven the other hub carrier out of ORD.
I haven't flown United in almost 30 years, because of a miserable flight from ORD to Atlanta. My wife swore off United after encountering so many rude employees at EWR, 10 years ago.
I'll change planes at PHX, DFW, CLT. DCA, or PHL before I fly a United non-stop out of ORD.
Scott Kirby is a america West loser and has no class united airlines has a lot of good people working for them but there CEO is a asshole.
Scott Kirby has no class..Just BS. I served 30 yrs in the intl airline industry, 25 yrs for Pan Am who left us in 1991. Leadership was main cause of demise. But events like Lockerbie and the deliberate undermining of ridership by our govt contributed. Yes, you heard me right. Politics also pulled rug out from support of flag carrier and Pan Am was the biggest. If Mr Kirby was a friend, you don't need...
Scott Kirby has no class..Just BS. I served 30 yrs in the intl airline industry, 25 yrs for Pan Am who left us in 1991. Leadership was main cause of demise. But events like Lockerbie and the deliberate undermining of ridership by our govt contributed. Yes, you heard me right. Politics also pulled rug out from support of flag carrier and Pan Am was the biggest. If Mr Kirby was a friend, you don't need a " friend" like that. American was never Pan Am's friend but, now, when the U.S. is losing friends, once again,to politics, Mr Kirby would do better by being supportive and helping circle the wagons...This country continues to hv many leaders with just a football mentality..., whereas, truly successful build positive relationships. ...United we stand, divided we fall. ..pun intended.
someone should stuff a rag in Kirby's mouth. That guy is too much.
Scott Kirby needs to take care of his front line that provides him the title as the highest paid Airline CEO.
United Airline's turnaround since 2016 under Kirby and UA's network team has been nothing short of amazing.
Huge Fleet size growth 2016/2025: UA: 737/1,054 , DL: 832/992, AA: 930/1,002
Even with UAL's elevated growth capex ($9.6B) it has $2.5B/$1.4B more in operating/free cash flow than DAL since 1/1/24 and $3B less net debt.
Greater Future growth
UA: 1,060 aircraft, (229 WB), 186 WB/482 NB on order (15.5 average fleet age)
DA: 992 aircraft, (177...
United Airline's turnaround since 2016 under Kirby and UA's network team has been nothing short of amazing.
Huge Fleet size growth 2016/2025: UA: 737/1,054 , DL: 832/992, AA: 930/1,002
Even with UAL's elevated growth capex ($9.6B) it has $2.5B/$1.4B more in operating/free cash flow than DAL since 1/1/24 and $3B less net debt.
Greater Future growth
UA: 1,060 aircraft, (229 WB), 186 WB/482 NB on order (15.5 average fleet age)
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 26 WB/237 NB on order (14.9 average fleet age)
AA: 1,002 aircraft, (133 WB), 22 WB/278 NB on order (14.1 average fleet age)
More Lie-flat Business Class Seats/Int’l Departure: UA: 45.4, AA: 35.1 , DL: 31.8
Far greater int'l hard premium product consistency.
Far more expansive int'l network: 56 more int'l destinations than DL.
TATL destinations 2016/2025: UA: 22/42, DL: 32/34, AA: 21/20
TPAC destinations 2016/2025: UA: 23/32, DL: 15/8, AA: 8/7
TLAT Destinations 2016/2025 : AA: 92/97, UA: 57/66 , DL: 58/52
Much improved customer satisfaction. UA NPS up 7% this summer over 2024.
nobody is doubting any of that.
The fact that you and UA feel the need to incessantly tell us about how well UA has improved is what is beyond obsessive.
The fact, though, is that UA is not industry leading in much of anything except seat miles flown and fuel burned - and they can't turn either of those into a revenue or profit advantage.
You once again are fixated on size including what...
nobody is doubting any of that.
The fact that you and UA feel the need to incessantly tell us about how well UA has improved is what is beyond obsessive.
The fact, though, is that UA is not industry leading in much of anything except seat miles flown and fuel burned - and they can't turn either of those into a revenue or profit advantage.
You once again are fixated on size including what you think UA will do in the future. Did you just sleep through 3rd quarter earnings season and fail to miss that UA's RASM performance was the worst in the industry because of its aggressive growth that was far higher than its peers?
And UA is pulling back now - including far moreso than AA or DL are doing - because both of those two were much more focused on doing their best financially instead of chasing market share.
UA IS losing market share and handing markets to competitors - so they tanked their financials and still are losing market share.
UA's size and growth strategy has simply not worked - something some of us said years ago would be the case - but you couldn't be bothered to admit that someone else that didn't parrot UA's message could be right.
I know it is impossible for you to admit it but I said years ago and have repeated it over and over that UA's growth strategy would not work and we are seeing that play out in real life.
And, more significantly, DL is gaining share in major markets and attacking UA's weaknesses w/ DL growth including LAX-HKG; the chances of UA pulling some or all of its LAX-HKG capacity are very high.
As hard as it is for you to admit, DL plays the long game, knows what it needs to serve as a global carrier and is doing so in a measured way in which it can and is eroding UA's international advantages while keeping UA from gaining a domestic advantage.
It would be nice if you could grasp that orders years into the future mean nothing as long as other airlines keep getting orders.
DL has hundreds of unexercised narrowbody options and 20 widebody options that, when combined with current orders, support plenty of growth. and yet rumors remain strong that a massive DL order will come, perhaps at DL's investor conference in early December which will do what UA has been unwilling to do with its massive orders - massively retire older aircraft.
have the humility to see yourself and your beloved UA for what it is - good and bad. The fact that you and UA execs feel the need to incessantly talk about how good UA is while lashing out at anyone that mentions any legitimately accurate criticism shows how insecure you are - but not surprising given it is a top down characteristic at UA.
Wow. That is some seriously verbose projection.
Long story short. Even with UAL's elevated growth capex ($9.6B) it has $2.5B/$1.4B more in operating/free cash flow than DAL since 1/1/24 and $3B less net debt. Amazing.
Fleet size growth 2016/2025: UA: 737/1,054 , DL: 832/992
Future growth
UA: 1,060 aircraft, (229 WB), 186 WB/482 NB on order (15.5 average fleet age) UA NPS up 7% this summer over 2024.
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 26...
Wow. That is some seriously verbose projection.
Long story short. Even with UAL's elevated growth capex ($9.6B) it has $2.5B/$1.4B more in operating/free cash flow than DAL since 1/1/24 and $3B less net debt. Amazing.
Fleet size growth 2016/2025: UA: 737/1,054 , DL: 832/992
Future growth
UA: 1,060 aircraft, (229 WB), 186 WB/482 NB on order (15.5 average fleet age) UA NPS up 7% this summer over 2024.
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 26 WB/237 NB on order (14.9 average fleet age)
Far more expansive int'l network: 56 more int'l destinations than DL.
we can keep this going for 200 more posts if you want but you still are clearly incapable of focusing on things that matter for a business even though you love to talk about business metrics.
UA simply does not translate its larger size into a revenue or profit advantage even w/ a significant labor cost advantage. How hard is it for you to realize that?
when you pay your people less and do not...
we can keep this going for 200 more posts if you want but you still are clearly incapable of focusing on things that matter for a business even though you love to talk about business metrics.
UA simply does not translate its larger size into a revenue or profit advantage even w/ a significant labor cost advantage. How hard is it for you to realize that?
when you pay your people less and do not receive the aircraft that your suppliers promised, your cash flow falls.
It is beyond laughable that you assert that other people don't understand business principles but are incapable of understanding something as basic as what drives cash flow.
and you still can't grasp that future fleet growth doesn't amount to anything as long as every party that wants to grow can continue to profitably grow.
DL clearly has received enough airplanes to not only keep growing but also to generate $1 billion more in profits so far this year, a statistic that you repeatedly ignore in your quest to argue how big UA is.
You either believe that UA is a business and should be measured by business metrics or you simply are an avgeek that has no understanding of business or care about it.
You cannot mix and match metrics you like and reject the ones you don't because you can't stand to read that UA really is not #1 in much of anything other than size - which it has failed to use for a financial advantage.
and since UA execs are cutting back in multiple markets, they do understand that UA is a for-profit business that has to generate returns higher than it has been.
You might want to spend a little time accepting that UA execs really do understand that UA is a for profit business and are running it that way, even to the exclusion of all of the other metrics that you can't stand to accept.
TD, "...orders years into the future mean nothing as long as other airlines keep getting orders.
DL has hundreds of unexercised narrowbody options and 20 widebody options that, when combined with current orders, support plenty of growth"
Orders mean nothing, but DL options and rumored future orders with a four year+ backlog do. Got it.
UA has added twice as many aircraft since 2016 as DL and still has $1.4B more FCF since 1/1/24. Delta's...
TD, "...orders years into the future mean nothing as long as other airlines keep getting orders.
DL has hundreds of unexercised narrowbody options and 20 widebody options that, when combined with current orders, support plenty of growth"
Orders mean nothing, but DL options and rumored future orders with a four year+ backlog do. Got it.
UA has added twice as many aircraft since 2016 as DL and still has $1.4B more FCF since 1/1/24. Delta's conservatism worked for a long time with deals like the 717 leases, the A220s & the LATAM 787s, but Covid changed all that. Kirby saw that and Bastian didn't. Advantage UA.
and yet UA can't use that size to a financial advantage.
You clearly cannot accept that UA execs are running UA as a for profit business with the goal of meeting financial metrics which UA badly missed.
The difference between DL and UA's growth this year cost UA $1 billion in earnings which UA execs clearly see as unacceptable based on the capacity cuts they have already announced.
Capacity cuts? UA will be receiving more new wide body aircraft (29) in the next 13 months than the total DL has on order. And it is you who is always saying UA isn't parking any WB aircraft. You're right for once. Check out the big picture tiny Tim.
number of aircraft in a fleet has little to do with capacity. Flights that are flown determine capacity.
We can keep going for another 200 posts but the real issue is that you cannot accept that I have been right all along that UA execs understand that UA is a for-profit business and they want to match DL's levels of financial performance.
UA execs engaged in an aggressive growth strategy that has clearly cost...
number of aircraft in a fleet has little to do with capacity. Flights that are flown determine capacity.
We can keep going for another 200 posts but the real issue is that you cannot accept that I have been right all along that UA execs understand that UA is a for-profit business and they want to match DL's levels of financial performance.
UA execs engaged in an aggressive growth strategy that has clearly cost the company revenue and profits which they are moving quickly to correct.
Your fixation with incessant growth and size is not in line with what UA execs see as their mandate - financial performance first and then growth if it can be profitably done.
DL has understand that mandate for years; DL is not sitting by silently but it does not operate near as much low margin or money losing flying which is why they do not have to cut much while UA is cutting pretty aggressively.
DL will grow and it is clearly not afraid to take on UA where it matters - it has won in Scandinavia and Senegal just as UA won in GVA - only to cut capacity after DL pulled out.
DL is taking on the Pacific including from LAX. THAT is what should scare you if you are obsessed with UA's size.
DL clearly wants to be the dominant int'l carrier at LAX just as it is in domestic, leave UA alone at SFO and have a smaller but legitimate hub at SEA - on top of DL's 4 other US gateways to Asia - which will grow to include JFK.
UA's capacity dumping hurt UA's bottom line and they are fixing it but more importantly UA is clearly not stopping DL from getting what DL wants across the Atlantic and Pacific.
The sooner you understand that the strongest really does dictate the trajectory of everyone else in the industry, the sooner you can come to grips with why things are happening in the airline industry = and life as a whole.
How do you explain this? DY/DX.
Cash Flow: Operating/Free(Capex) in $b since 1/1/24
UAL: 16.6/7.1(9.6)
DAL: 14.1/5.7(8.7)
AAL: 7.4/3.0(4.7)
SWA: 3.7/-2.1(6.0)
the explanation is simple
You live in a world where you pick the reality which you want to believe and ignore everything that dares challenge the assumption that you and everything you surround yourself with is anything less than perfect.
for the 66,000th time, there are 40,000 UA employees that recognize that Kirby's unwillingness to increase their pay and settle their contracts is why UA can claim "winning" at any financial metric.
You clearly...
the explanation is simple
You live in a world where you pick the reality which you want to believe and ignore everything that dares challenge the assumption that you and everything you surround yourself with is anything less than perfect.
for the 66,000th time, there are 40,000 UA employees that recognize that Kirby's unwillingness to increase their pay and settle their contracts is why UA can claim "winning" at any financial metric.
You clearly are so consumed w/ your own "winning" that you can't see who has to lose for you to win.
I pity you. I really do.
To live your life with such an incessant need to win that you rejoice in other people's loss is the height of self-absorption.
Do tell us your relationship to UA if you rejoice in underpaid employees so you can chalk up a win on metric.
did you concede that maybe UA execs really are running the company as a for-profit business FIRST and will expand and grow only if they can generate DL level financial metrics - which they clearly did not do in the most recent quarter or year to date?
You obviously don't understand basic accounting.
Guess why Amazon has almost never posted outstanding net income? Because it prioritizes long-term growth by reinvesting profits into its various businesses, such as its cloud computing and logistics operations, which can suppress short-term earnings.
That is what UA is doing. They are investing in the long-term growth and reinvesting profits. DL isn't reinvesting to the same extent. Penny wise pound foolish IMO.
you can view it however you wish but what UA is not investing in is its employees. That is a fact.
The difference in FCF is far less than what UA would have to spend to bring all of its employees up to DL total levels of compensation.
THAT is a fact.
UA is also not receiving the airplanes it was supposed to receive from Boeing.
Both will bring down UA's cash...
you can view it however you wish but what UA is not investing in is its employees. That is a fact.
The difference in FCF is far less than what UA would have to spend to bring all of its employees up to DL total levels of compensation.
THAT is a fact.
UA is also not receiving the airplanes it was supposed to receive from Boeing.
Both will bring down UA's cash flow. As usual, you argue "minute in time" datapoints to the exclusion of the long-term reality which you preach.
Most people would call that hypocrisy
If those are facts then by all means put some numbers up to demonstrate it.
I noticed you're dodging the question about the Delta flight dispatcher contract being a year beyond the amendable date or as you would take it out of context. 50% of all DL labor contracts are over a year past their amendable date. :)
Worth noting that United adjusted their schedules yet again this morning, showing an even further pull-back of transatlantic routes for next summer than just the Stockholm and Dakar cancellations that we saw earlier this week.
Not any other destination cancellations, but huge pare-downs of other frequencies from multiple hubs, including to the (hugely-overserved IMO) Mediterranean. Not surprised to see that bubble start to weaken.
rebel,
let's be clear that this discussion is not and has never been about concern for employees at UA or DL.
It is about your incessant rants about how great UA's FCF is while repeatedly ignoring that UA will spend far more on an increased contract for its FAs, let alone its mechanics, than the difference in FCF.
But since you can't admit that someone else is right and your beloved UA...
rebel,
let's be clear that this discussion is not and has never been about concern for employees at UA or DL.
It is about your incessant rants about how great UA's FCF is while repeatedly ignoring that UA will spend far more on an increased contract for its FAs, let alone its mechanics, than the difference in FCF.
But since you can't admit that someone else is right and your beloved UA really is not in first place, you have tried to equate 40K UA employees with a couple hundred DL dispatchers.
and how do you know that DL and its dispatchers haven't signed side letters?
immortal,
I listed the cities where UA is cutting back and they also include BRU, FRA and GVA, all of which are Star hubs and none of which are on the Med. UA has been throwing capacity into the market for years and they are the ones that are now pulling back in city after city, giving DL the largest position in multiple markets.
Hard to believe that UA execs thought they would win when the data has been pretty clear for years that UA has a large number of underperforming markets across its network.
And let's not forget that UA's Latin America revenue was just as bad as TATL. They will be making cuts there.
and all of this comes just as Airbus and Boeing ramp up deliveries of new aircraft - so UA will be receiving a bunch of aircraft right at the time the opportunities to grow dry up.
and let's be clear that UA is not going to dump a dozen new 787's worth of capacity into the Pacific.
I suspect we are on the verge of UA doing what DL started to do 5 years ago which is slowly start retiring widebodies.
and the irony for rebel is that taking on a bunch of new aircraft and using them for replacement rather than growth will drain FCF pretty fast and provide very little short term benefit because fuel costs are so low.
UA gambled on a high growth strategy using older aircraft and now its growth is petering out and it now has to use large numbers of aircraft for fleet replacement.
as much as someone wants desperately to think he is the smartest airline CEO, he is increasingly looking like the same person that has made many strategic failures in his career -not the least of which was giving DL 1/4 of LGA's slots for $60 million net because US couldn't figure out how to use them profitably - his words.
TD, "let's be clear that this discussion is not and has never been about concern for employees at UA or DL."
That's been pretty clear, but at least now you can't as easily pretend otherwise.
UA is starting to implement the de-peaking of summer flying that both DL & UA have been talking about. There are plenty of markets, especially in traditionally off-peak times of year that will be getting additional capacity that is enabled...
TD, "let's be clear that this discussion is not and has never been about concern for employees at UA or DL."
That's been pretty clear, but at least now you can't as easily pretend otherwise.
UA is starting to implement the de-peaking of summer flying that both DL & UA have been talking about. There are plenty of markets, especially in traditionally off-peak times of year that will be getting additional capacity that is enabled by the incoming 29 787s. I agree that UA will likely store/retire some of the oldest wide bodies that are coming up on heavy maintenance visits depending upon the strength of demand. This is common sense in matching supply and demand.
Maybe DL will try growing internationally after shrinking from 105 destinations in 2016 to 94 in 2025 while UA grew from 102 to 140 destinations. The tale of two airlines. Advantage United.
TATL destinations 2016/2025 : UA: 22/42 , DL: 32/34, AA: 21/20
TPAC destinations 2016/2025 : UA: 23/32 , DL: 15/8, AA: 8/7
TLAT Destinations 2016/2025: AA: 92/97, UA: 57/66, DL: 58/52
I'm glad you have moved past the notion that a higher FCF is a badge of honor because, just like the name rebel, it is a liability, not a badge of honor.
fixate on size if it makes you feel better.
UA execs just decided that their aggressive size and growth strategy is not as important as making money.
Their RASM was horrific in the 3rd quarter on $1 billion less profit -...
I'm glad you have moved past the notion that a higher FCF is a badge of honor because, just like the name rebel, it is a liability, not a badge of honor.
fixate on size if it makes you feel better.
UA execs just decided that their aggressive size and growth strategy is not as important as making money.
Their RASM was horrific in the 3rd quarter on $1 billion less profit - DL made 63% more profit in the first 3 quarters.
UA's 3rd quarter system PRASM was down 5% on 7% more capacity while DL's system RASM was down 1% on 4% more capacity.
DL clearly far better managed its growth than UA - and Wall Street saw it.
You fixate on size if it makes you feel better but UA execs are not going to stroke your need for size and growth any longer because it has not paid off.
and this is all focused on Europe; UA's Latin RASM was far worse than Europe.
and DL is shifting its focus to Asia/Pacific with far more efficient and capable aircraft than anything UA has.
We've listened to UA for the past five years and they are now falling flat on their face just as DL's growth in UA's key region - Asia - ramps up.
this will be a fun couple of years as we watch UA fall back to a distant number 2 and DL ramp up its presence in markets where UA thought it was invincible.
fun, indeed
I'm glad you have moved past the notion that a higher FCF is a badge of honor because, just like the name rebel, it is a liability, not a badge of honor.
fixate on size if it makes you feel better.
UA execs just decided that their aggressive size and growth strategy is not as important as making money.
Their RASM was horrific in the 3rd quarter on $1 billion less profit -...
I'm glad you have moved past the notion that a higher FCF is a badge of honor because, just like the name rebel, it is a liability, not a badge of honor.
fixate on size if it makes you feel better.
UA execs just decided that their aggressive size and growth strategy is not as important as making money.
Their RASM was horrific in the 3rd quarter on $1 billion less profit - DL made 63% more profit in the first 3 quarters.
UA's 3rd quarter system PRASM was down 5% on 7% more capacity while DL's system RASM was down 1% on 4% more capacity.
DL clearly far better managed its growth than UA - and Wall Street saw it.
You fixate on size if it makes you feel better but UA execs are not going to stroke your need for size and growth any longer because it has not paid off.
and this is all focused on Europe; UA's Latin RASM was far worse than Europe.
and DL is shifting its focus to Asia/Pacific with far more efficient and capable aircraft than anything UA has.
We've listened to UA for the past five years and they are now falling flat on their face just as DL's growth in UA's key region - Asia - ramps up.
this will be a fun couple of years as we watch UA fall back to a distant number 2 and DL ramp up its presence in markets where UA thought it was invincible.
fun, indeed
Sorry tT, cash is king otherwise AMZN would not be worth $2.4T after decades of substandard net income and reinvestment. Along with your sentence diagramming review check out some basic accounting.
UA $2.5B/$1.4B op/free cash flow than DL over the last seven quarters even with a $1B more capex and now $3B less net debt. UA is doing great and well positioned growth. The UA CFO even said that these new planes are earnings accretive. Must have got a smoking deal.
yes, UA got a great deal - because they ordered from Boeing who is years behind in delivering planes and is now delivering them while UA's revenue is tanking.
cling to the notion that cash flow matters more than having happy, industry leading paid employees.
You have never demonstrated that you understand what matters in life, business, or English
I'll take that for what it's worth from tT. Analyst? Hilarious.
are you accepting that UA blew it in the revenue department for the summer and your wet dreams of aggressive growth and size are over?
Not at all. The yield erosion was primarily a function of a fare sale to help EWR recover more quickly.
complete BS.
and if that is the case, then UA execs lied to investors.
UA said its TATL RASM was down more than domestic and Latin was even worse.
UA couldn't tank its RASM based on what it sells just from EWR.
You are so pathologically incapable of accepting the truth, it is incredibly sad to watch.
And if you were right, UA wouldn't be cutting capacity but they are.
You are so full of it
You do understand the difference between a few routes and capacity, right? 100+ new planes in the next 13 months is a strange way to cut capacity. Poor tT.
get back w/ us when UA releases its capacity guidance for next summer. and also its fleet plans.
You will certainly be disappointed but it is certain this bat out of hell growth and fixation on size isn't happening and won't.
Kirby got schooled and your dreams have been shattered.
you'll get over it.
I wanted to get back to you. As I predicted UA TATL destinations from EWR are increasing from 32 in 2025 to 36 in 2026. How about DL from JFK?
I wanted to get back w/ you to let you know that in nearly 300 replies you still cling to the notion that number of destinations is the most important figure since you love to keep dragging it out.
I suppose that is why it hurts you so much when UA actually drops a destination - not just from NYC but from its route map - as it is doing with ARN and DSS....
I wanted to get back w/ you to let you know that in nearly 300 replies you still cling to the notion that number of destinations is the most important figure since you love to keep dragging it out.
I suppose that is why it hurts you so much when UA actually drops a destination - not just from NYC but from its route map - as it is doing with ARN and DSS. The laughable irony is that DL did it with 767-300ERs in both cities, neither of which are JV partner hubs which bodes very well for how well DL will succeed from LAX to Asia where UA has dropped AKL and BNE when DL added service; DL's entrance in the LAX-HKG market followed by LAX-MNL and SIN should chase UA back north.
I have enjoyed this conversation and do hope that Scottie rewards you for working the weekend touting how great UA how is. Your quick use of your UA-provided Cirium subscription is certainly an asset to the discussion
I am still waiting to hear what cubicle I can find you in at UA's HDQ tomorrow morning so we can meet up for coffee.
Based on my own experience, Delta is the one to go. Old planes, bad service. United has a lot to improve too. Believe or not, there's a chance for AA to be dominant in the market.
The bottom line is not really 100% how you manage and other odds. How many are you flying, counts a lot
It is amazing how disconnected Kirby and UA is from reality in the one thing that he claims is his strong point - building airline networks.
UA had the worst RASM performance in the industry while AA did far better; AA had very conservative capacity growth while DL challenged UA in key markets and won.
AA is adding more capacity across the Atlantic next summer than any other US airline and addressing their strategic...
It is amazing how disconnected Kirby and UA is from reality in the one thing that he claims is his strong point - building airline networks.
UA had the worst RASM performance in the industry while AA did far better; AA had very conservative capacity growth while DL challenged UA in key markets and won.
AA is adding more capacity across the Atlantic next summer than any other US airline and addressing their strategic shortcoming across the Atlantic. Whether they will avoid being the victim of the same overcapacity issues that plagued UA across its network remain to be seen but it is AA that managed capacity well this year.
DL stuck it out and is holding its capacity in major cities while UA cuts. DL's focus is clearly shifting to the Pacific where its first order of business is to take on UA on LAX-HKG. DL has already made clear it is going to add more destinations in Asia from LAX; DL clearly doesn't mind stepping on top of UA's little 787 flights with much bigger and more capable aircraft if UA decides to jump into LAX markets to try to keep DL out.
Let's remember that DL decided to walk away from LAX-LHR and JFK-GVA instead of fight a market with overcapacity.
UA pulled down capacity in both markets (LAX-LHR and GVA from IAD) after DL walked away.
Let's see how well UA does with LAX-HKG after DL enters the market but UA's 65% load factors don't indicate they are succeeding.
DL plays the long game and doesn't take revenge in the moment - and it generates the best revenue and profit metrics in the US industry as a result while UA's network strategy runs on testosterone and frequently has to be pulled back because of poor market performance.
what UA is being forced to do across the Atlantic is entirely predictable. The real test will be what happens to Asia and esp. from LAX as DL makes it clear that it wants to match its position as largest domestic airline w/ the largest international carrier title.
Even with UAL's elevated growth capex ($9.6B) it has $2.5B/$1.4B more in operating/free cash flow than DAL since 1/1/24 and $3B less net debt. Amazing.
Kirby came to UA in 2016.
Huge Fleet size growth 2016/2025: UA: 737/1,054 , DL: 832/992, AA: 930/1,002
Greater Future growth
UA: 1,060 aircraft, (229 WB), 186 WB/482 NB on order (15.5 average fleet age)
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 26 WB/237 NB on order (14.9 average fleet age)
Even with UAL's elevated growth capex ($9.6B) it has $2.5B/$1.4B more in operating/free cash flow than DAL since 1/1/24 and $3B less net debt. Amazing.
Kirby came to UA in 2016.
Huge Fleet size growth 2016/2025: UA: 737/1,054 , DL: 832/992, AA: 930/1,002
Greater Future growth
UA: 1,060 aircraft, (229 WB), 186 WB/482 NB on order (15.5 average fleet age)
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 26 WB/237 NB on order (14.9 average fleet age)
AA: 1,002 aircraft, (133 WB), 22 WB/278 NB on order (14.1 average fleet age)
More Lie-flat Business Class Seats/Int’l Departure: UA: 45.4, AA: 35.1 , DL: 31.8
Far greater int'l hard premium product consistency.
Far more expansive int'l network: 56 more int'l destinations than DL.
TATL destinations 2016/2025: UA: 22/42, DL: 32/34, AA: 21/20
TPAC destinations 2016/2025: UA: 23/32, DL: 15/8, AA: 8/7
TLAT Destinations 2016/2025 : AA: 92/97, UA: 57/66 , DL: 58/52
UA NPS up 7% this summer over 2024.
see above.
when UA can translate all of that into an actual market advantage, then you might prove your point.
You love to talk about any financial metric except the ones that show that UA's profits relative to DL have DETERIORATED IN 2025 - even though UA continues to have a massive labor cost advantage that even its execs say will cost it significantly.
It is clear your ego is wrapped up w/ UA but...
see above.
when UA can translate all of that into an actual market advantage, then you might prove your point.
You love to talk about any financial metric except the ones that show that UA's profits relative to DL have DETERIORATED IN 2025 - even though UA continues to have a massive labor cost advantage that even its execs say will cost it significantly.
It is clear your ego is wrapped up w/ UA but have the maturity to see UA for what it is; no one doubts what it has accomplished but a whole lot of people are capable of seeing UA for what it is right now far better than you are.
Cash flow is king.
UAL has $2.5B/$1.4B more in operating/free cash flow than DAL since 1/1/24 and $3B less net debt. Amazing.
again, fixate on what makes you feel better but cash flow is only one of a number of metrics and not even the most important .
and more importantly, you can't accept that UA's underpaid employees are the major reason for UA's higher FCF.
The fact that Boeing isn't delivering what it promised is secondary.
why you persist in pushing something that is an indictment to how UA is run just so you can chalk up a "win" is mind-boggling
UA's industry leading cash flow will provide an industry-leading contract for the UA F/As and other groups.
Why hasn't DL managed to negotiate a new deal with their flight dispatchers? Heck, they only have two mainline groups that require collective bargaining. Their contract is further past its amendable date than any UA employee group other than the F/As. Yikes!
I don't know the details of DL's flight dispatchers but any increase will be a rounding error on DL's finances.
but go ahead and worry about a couple hundred DL employees while ignoring the 40k UA employees who are far less paid.
Today would be a good day to start accepting the reality in your own backyard and quit deflecting from the reality that UA is really not industry leading in anything other than ASMs flown and pollution generated.
At least we can dispense with your transparently disingenuous concern for employees at either airline from tiny Tim.
there never was any concern. People that are under CBAs can figure out how to make them work.
Have you dispensed with your ridiculous notion that having higher FCF is more of an advantage than having underpaid, unhappy employees?
As you lamented about the UA F/As are doing a great job despite being without the industry-leading contract they deserve and will get. It is a credit to them and their commitment to UA customers as even you recognized. Good on you TT.
of course they will get a pay raise and UA's FCF will fall.
how you have failed to understand the concept for so long is beyond believable
Obviously, that is true, but you have gone further and claimed how much relative to FCF, but you conveniently avoid showing us your math. Run along tT and get to cyphering.
if you can't figure out how much a UA FA contract is going to cost - even rounded to the nearest hundred million, you really should not be having this conversation.
But, then, you really shouldn't be having this conversation. Period
Tell us, Tim.
How much will a UA FA contract cost? You base your life story around how much it matters to UA profitability.
Tell us how much it matters?
Then tell us the labor cost advantage of Delta non-unionization alongside the cost of the spend Delta has to prevent unionization?
(many people know this, Tim... Delta spends A LOT on preventing union work rules that benefit their employees and you know...
Tell us, Tim.
How much will a UA FA contract cost? You base your life story around how much it matters to UA profitability.
Tell us how much it matters?
Then tell us the labor cost advantage of Delta non-unionization alongside the cost of the spend Delta has to prevent unionization?
(many people know this, Tim... Delta spends A LOT on preventing union work rules that benefit their employees and you know this well which is why you always fight for EVERY other union but hate the idea of Delta unionization... so transparent).
You've lost every argument today. You don't even know what FCF is as evidenced below
such a pathetic loser and you know how i know that? Delta thought so too and fired you ;)
Go back to your basement.
Delta doesn't have a labor cost advantage, Max.
they pay MORE for labor.
Delta is more efficient in generating revenue. DL employees generate more revenue per employee than any other airline. In. The. World.
Wall Street Analysts have repeatedly expressed concern about UA's rising labor costs - which UA execs have said is coming.
You and rebel are free to lash out at everyone else but every one else knows the truth including that...
Delta doesn't have a labor cost advantage, Max.
they pay MORE for labor.
Delta is more efficient in generating revenue. DL employees generate more revenue per employee than any other airline. In. The. World.
Wall Street Analysts have repeatedly expressed concern about UA's rising labor costs - which UA execs have said is coming.
You and rebel are free to lash out at everyone else but every one else knows the truth including that UA is facing rapidly increasing labor costs even as it revenue crashes.
Argue as long as you want... it won't change the reality but will give me more and more opportunities to put the evidence on the table for all of Ben's readers to see.
Scottie must be so proud of you.
you really need a life, Tim.
It's absolutely pathetic how much time you spent in this comment section trying to diss your weird obsession of Scott Kirby and UA.
The only thing that is pathetic is how hard you have tried to paint me as the incompetent one and ended up proving how incredibly ignorant you are of the facts of the discussion.
Cash flow is simply not part of an income statement no matter how badly you argue it is to try to prove me wrong.
It is no wonder you attack me because you clearly are incapable of addressing the fact-related...
The only thing that is pathetic is how hard you have tried to paint me as the incompetent one and ended up proving how incredibly ignorant you are of the facts of the discussion.
Cash flow is simply not part of an income statement no matter how badly you argue it is to try to prove me wrong.
It is no wonder you attack me because you clearly are incapable of addressing the fact-related issues I raise.
You are the one that started an entire thread obsessing about me which proved your ignorance of business.
the sooner you quit worrying about how much and who posts what about public figures and companies and accept that everyone can see you exhibit just as much rage as Scott Kirby, the sooner we can all have productive discussions.
For what is left of your self-esteem, quit making a fool of yourself and JUST. WALK. AWAY.
5 paragraphs to me after your constant "refresh refresh refresh" to see if anyone cares what you wrote? I'm flattered. ;)
as usual, the hypocrisy is all yours.
You hit the refresh button to try to ensure your statement stood without a reply - and you got in just 3 minutes after my reply.
Your entire reason for being on aviation media is a78 backwards, max, and you are the only one that can't see it.
You can't stand that someone else can articulately and accurately speak about the facts and reality of the airline industry...
as usual, the hypocrisy is all yours.
You hit the refresh button to try to ensure your statement stood without a reply - and you got in just 3 minutes after my reply.
Your entire reason for being on aviation media is a78 backwards, max, and you are the only one that can't see it.
You can't stand that someone else can articulately and accurately speak about the facts and reality of the airline industry while you screw up basic business knowledge and principles - so it is no surprise why you resort to personal attacks.
Just walk away, Max.
5 more paragraphs to me after another constant refresh?! lol
You don't know the difference between an income statement and a cash flow statement yet pretend you do but you also sit on this webpage clicking refresh.
God, you're stupid.
Speaking of things people can't see. Have you never noticed how everyone ALWAYS calls you out for being wrong?
Work on your obsession with Scott Kirby and Patrick Quayle. It's more than pathetic. But so is you clicking refresh on this article (and now me too). Enjoy your day and be less of a loser. Also, find a finance course and learn about what cash flow statements are and what FCF is.
You're like arguing with a crazy person on a downtown street corner.
"Cash flow is simply not part of an income statement no matter how badly you argue it is to try to prove me wrong."
And only you ever thought that it was. I Certainly never said that because I know it isn't. I was discussing what is actual money flowing in a year vs the income statement -- something you clearly have no idea of the difference. You're such an idiot trying to put words in my mouth I never said.
how cow, Max. You are wildly round up. 3 replies in 4 minutes.
and, yes, you yourself said that FCF is income because it shows up on an income statement.
I am sure you drank alot last night but the evidence is there for all to see.
Scott Kirby is a public figure who did a podcast. You are not a public figure and neither am I.
The sooner you get over the notion...
how cow, Max. You are wildly round up. 3 replies in 4 minutes.
and, yes, you yourself said that FCF is income because it shows up on an income statement.
I am sure you drank alot last night but the evidence is there for all to see.
Scott Kirby is a public figure who did a podcast. You are not a public figure and neither am I.
The sooner you get over the notion that UA and Scott Kirby should be shielded from criticism, the sooner you will get back to reality - along w/ some professional help.
regardless of what I write about UA or Kirby, your clear obsession w/ what I write highlights how "off" you are.
You have made dozens of posts about me, not the subject in this one article alone.
Get help, Max, Seriously.
You are not well.
MP, "And only you ever thought that it was. I Certainly never said that because I know it isn't. I was discussing what is actual money flowing in a year vs the income statement -- something you clearly have no idea of the difference. You're such an idiot trying to put words in my mouth I never said."
Exactly.
Never heard of an 'analyst' who doesn't understand basic accounting, but he is adept at...
MP, "And only you ever thought that it was. I Certainly never said that because I know it isn't. I was discussing what is actual money flowing in a year vs the income statement -- something you clearly have no idea of the difference. You're such an idiot trying to put words in my mouth I never said."
Exactly.
Never heard of an 'analyst' who doesn't understand basic accounting, but he is adept at addressing arguments nobody made. Building straw men is his stock in trade.
beyond laughable given that you think that cash flow is a better indicator of financial success than profits.
You twist and manipulate every piece of data to avoid admitting the cold, hard reality which everyone else can see if it shows your beloved in the least bit of negative light.
at least you didn't say that FCF appears on the income statement but you led Max down that path and he said it so you have accomplished a great deal.
MP never said FCF was part of the income statement. Pathetic straw man, but FCF is king and UAL has $2.5B/$1.4B more in operating/free cash flow than DAL since 1/1/24 and $3B less net debt. Amazing.
I know this is a long thread but is copied from below right here
"FCF is not "money made"
"Yes, Tim. It is. Income Statements are a product of accounting. Free Cash Flow is real money made. lol. Wow... Is your knowledge level actually this low?
Honestly though... it does explain why you have no concept of financial issues if you believe that."
Income statements have nothing to do with free cash flow.
...
I know this is a long thread but is copied from below right here
"FCF is not "money made"
"Yes, Tim. It is. Income Statements are a product of accounting. Free Cash Flow is real money made. lol. Wow... Is your knowledge level actually this low?
Honestly though... it does explain why you have no concept of financial issues if you believe that."
Income statements have nothing to do with free cash flow.
and cash flow is not money made... real or of any other kind.
the fact that you keep arguing only proves how desperate you are to try win something when you have struck out with every argument you have made - because you, like max, can't accept that someone else understands business and airlines far better than you.
walk away, rebel.
It is no wonder you and max use fake names.
Your reading comprehension is as poor as your understanding of basic accounting. That is clearly not what MP said. You are making it up, but thanks for providing the quote proving your fiction. Back to grade school sentence diagramming for you TT.
Poor tiny (brained) Tim.
Thanks Rebel
At a certain point. You realize Tim doesn't live in reality and the only way he can "win" an argument is by putting words in another mouth that no one said except Tim's attempt to resurrect his reputation.
It's pathetic. at a certain point. You just realize the average person can read and Tim is an idiot.
I appreciate your comments, Rebel. It's pretty obvious what I wrote below and what...
Thanks Rebel
At a certain point. You realize Tim doesn't live in reality and the only way he can "win" an argument is by putting words in another mouth that no one said except Tim's attempt to resurrect his reputation.
It's pathetic. at a certain point. You just realize the average person can read and Tim is an idiot.
I appreciate your comments, Rebel. It's pretty obvious what I wrote below and what the difference is between real "cash" vs Income statement.
Income statement is a great thing but if we're talking about "real cash" like Tim mentioned? the Cash Flow Statement is what matters as does FCF like your astute analysis mentioned.
Delta is "winning' on non-cash items from 20 years ago. Only there because they have no depreciation on their ancient fleet. including the first A320s off the factory floor and the god-awful 763s
United is already winning on free cash flow today.
That should tell everyone everything.
reality is that the vast majority of people see Kirby and UA's flaws - no matter how much you two spend time trying to defend it/him.
FCF is not income no matter how much you try to deflect from your misstatement.
DL has a younger fleet and is retiring its 767s, something UA will have no choice to do or face higher and higher maintenance bills - even if fuel stays low. DL and UA's...
reality is that the vast majority of people see Kirby and UA's flaws - no matter how much you two spend time trying to defend it/him.
FCF is not income no matter how much you try to deflect from your misstatement.
DL has a younger fleet and is retiring its 767s, something UA will have no choice to do or face higher and higher maintenance bills - even if fuel stays low. DL and UA's remaining 767 fleet (both types) is about the same age. Neither airline has a maintenance cost advantage on older aircraft.
As usual, you two both deflect from reality and trash anyone that speaks the truth because you can't accept the reality that UA really is quite a bit from close to parity with DL other than the refinery.
go outside and play today, max.
admit you bet on the wrong horse and slept through too many classes to be an effective competitor in the online debate community
before this article falls too far from the front page, it is worth noting - and certainly worth discussing based on other schedule related articles that have appeared on this site - how much UA is cutting for 2026.
IAD-DSS and EWR-ARN are getting axed - both of which DL flew with 767-300ERs, and leaving UA with no service to Scandinavia at all.
EWR-ATH going back to just 1 daily while DL will operate JFK-ATH...
before this article falls too far from the front page, it is worth noting - and certainly worth discussing based on other schedule related articles that have appeared on this site - how much UA is cutting for 2026.
IAD-DSS and EWR-ARN are getting axed - both of which DL flew with 767-300ERs, and leaving UA with no service to Scandinavia at all.
EWR-ATH going back to just 1 daily while DL will operate JFK-ATH as well as ATL-ATH double daily alongside BOS-ATH
IAD-GVA is getting cut to 3 x weekly proving that there was overcapacity which DL clearly saw before UA acted.
EWR-BRU and EWR-FRA will each be reduced to just 1 daily - the lowest NYC to JV hub service by a US carrier EWR-EDI will be reduced in favor of new EWR-GLA service (on a 737MAX).
The 3rd EWR-TLV service will not happen while DL is adding ATL and BOS-TLV.
UA's "growth" for 2026 across the Atlantic is reallocation of existing widebody capacity and replacement of widebody flying w/ 737MAXs, the lowest quality of capacity with no business or a premium economy cabin comparable to UA widebodies.
I have said for years that UA would be forced to slow its aggressive growth plans when the market indicated overcapacity - and that is exactly what is happening.
The bigger theme is that DL seems to have seen the overcapacity and slowed its growth - it will be flat - but pulled out of just one city - GVA - while reallocating capacity and maintaining a stronger presence in the largest markets from NYC than UA.
UA's 3rd quarter RASM performance was the worst in the industry due to the addition of so much capacity.
Competitively, DL's addition of LAX-HKG appears to indicate that DL knows where UA's network weaknesses are and will add capacity where DL needs to grow its presence, esp. if it forces UA to reign in the weak parts of its network.
and remember, as multiple people have noted in the comments below, UA underperformed as badly as it did on RASM even w/ a labor cost advantage due to unsettled FA and mechanic contracts which will only force up UA's costs in 2026 and beyond and require UA to be even more diligent in pursuing revenue instead of throwing excess capacity into the market
Even with UAL's elevated growth capex ($9.6B) it has $2.5B/$1.4B more in operating/free cash flow than DAL since 1/1/24 and $3B less net debt. Amazing.
Scott Kirby instead of attacking AA should give a decent contract to his flight attendants. He is still bleeding cause he couldn't get a CEO job in AA.
I personally completely disagree that it is about brand loyalty. I am 1k with United and except for the dedicated phone line, there is literally no benefit. I have stopped going out of my way to fly United, I just pay for what I want. And this is cheaper and I get more. Example to fra this winter, I can get business for $2.5k rt, that's not even prem econ on United. I know more and more people opting for this strategy.
Kirby didn’t say AA is doomed or they’re “cooked”. I listened to the podcast
He clearly wants them out of ORD , but he said AA would still dominate where their schedule dominates like in CLT.
The fact that Kirby was the architect of the America West/US Air Merger to the following US/American Merger should tell you all you need to know about him. He is the worst person around for the consumer. The products he created were profitable, but so hated by customers that every time they had a chance, they bought someone else's name to do business under. I will never fly American because of what America West did...
The fact that Kirby was the architect of the America West/US Air Merger to the following US/American Merger should tell you all you need to know about him. He is the worst person around for the consumer. The products he created were profitable, but so hated by customers that every time they had a chance, they bought someone else's name to do business under. I will never fly American because of what America West did to us over 20 years ago, and now that I know it was Kirby behind it all, I remain content with my choice to be all-in on Delta.
American needs to be more honest. When they lie to their customers 10 min. before boarding time that "Your flight is cancelled due to thunderstorms at your destination", they need to check their conscience. When we called the hotel in Dallas to cancel our reservation & said it was due to pur flight cancellation, they laughed & said " American lied to you. We've had a slight drizzle & 7there are no thunderstorms in the...
American needs to be more honest. When they lie to their customers 10 min. before boarding time that "Your flight is cancelled due to thunderstorms at your destination", they need to check their conscience. When we called the hotel in Dallas to cancel our reservation & said it was due to pur flight cancellation, they laughed & said " American lied to you. We've had a slight drizzle & 7there are no thunderstorms in the forecast!". Shame on you American. You owe all my fellow passengers an APOLOGY PLUS COMPENSATION!! Shame on yo7 American!!!!
Scott. You’re at the 1 yard line. Get it into the end zone. Get your flight attendants a top notch, top paying contract. And stop telling us it’s industry leading when we all know it wasn’t. Brand loyalty starts with brand ambassadors. You have 30,000 of them at your beckoned call. Don’t be short sighted or stupid about this.
Didn’t Kirby start at Piedmont?
The article’s writer appears awfully biased in favor of UA. He’s practically kissing the feet of Scott Kirby.
Lose labor?
He’s already lost, how is the FA contract going?
His improved financial numbers come directly out of the pockets of his largest, front line employees
If United is "premium," them I'm richer than Elon Musk.
Amateur here. Please stop talking about Charlotte as a positive unless pointing out it's only positive from revenue standpoint maybe. That airport sucks big donkey....xxxx. Has anyone been there lately? Old. Overcrowded . low ceilings. Leaking roof. Lack of light. horrible lounges. The last time I was there in August I felt like I was walking through a refugee camp. There were literally people sleeping on the floor in the terminal because... reliability. More on...
Amateur here. Please stop talking about Charlotte as a positive unless pointing out it's only positive from revenue standpoint maybe. That airport sucks big donkey....xxxx. Has anyone been there lately? Old. Overcrowded . low ceilings. Leaking roof. Lack of light. horrible lounges. The last time I was there in August I felt like I was walking through a refugee camp. There were literally people sleeping on the floor in the terminal because... reliability. More on that in a sec. First,
I love AA loyalty program and points value - best in breed in US in my opinion though I hate when they lack available options to redeem.. Something United is good at...just at not as great a value. Delta, I never understand why people fly them, never have never will. Maybe they credit miles over to KLM but even then....if I lived in Atlanta I still wouldn't fly Delta, I don't know what I would fly but wouldn't be Delta, I'd rather drive n get Citi / Chase points for the gas.
Back to AA....AA reliability sucks. So much so that I know executive platinum members who in 2025 have switched to flying Frontier for the direct option because they fear getting stuck in a city or delayed or canceled which would ruin an entire business trip for them. I feel like executive platinums are giving up a lot by doing this....they won't qualify even pro next year and when I ask them they say " I don't care. I'd rather get where I'm going on time"
I flew round trip to Vietnam twice in the last 14 months. One flight was United Ana. Round-trip. The second flight was American and JAL. I will never fly American again. The united aircraft, those were the same model, was newer cleaner , nicer. The staff on the United flight were better. Friendlier more helpful. American flew me to Saigon with two free check bags and when I left, I couldn’t get on the plane...
I flew round trip to Vietnam twice in the last 14 months. One flight was United Ana. Round-trip. The second flight was American and JAL. I will never fly American again. The united aircraft, those were the same model, was newer cleaner , nicer. The staff on the United flight were better. Friendlier more helpful. American flew me to Saigon with two free check bags and when I left, I couldn’t get on the plane without paying $50 for one of the checked bags. Continuation of a round-trip ticket. The bags were free going and they charge me coming back. Thatwas a hustle not classy.
Kirby is still so bitter about being fired from AA. He boasts about his "strategy" at Useless Airways - an airline that was abhored by most people not living in Elmira or Greenville NC.
How long has Kirby been at UA? Biz Class meals still suck, are inedible despite promises to upgrade the product.
I avoid UA long haul at all costs - at 6'5" I cannot fully recline in a Polaris seat.
...
Kirby is still so bitter about being fired from AA. He boasts about his "strategy" at Useless Airways - an airline that was abhored by most people not living in Elmira or Greenville NC.
How long has Kirby been at UA? Biz Class meals still suck, are inedible despite promises to upgrade the product.
I avoid UA long haul at all costs - at 6'5" I cannot fully recline in a Polaris seat.
Only worse seat I have encountered lately was on LatAm B787-8 where they had squeezed 25 seats in the J Cabin - most carriers only have 20.
Maybe Kirby thinks he'll become the next Secy of Transportation!
I flew AA last week from PHL/DFW. The Admiral’s Club, near A15, was the nicest, and I’m guessing newest, I have ever been in. The flight departed on time and arrived early. Before departing the F/A introduced herself and the meal service started promptly. The food was pretty good. It included a decent salad, a somewhat warm roll and ice cream for dessert. Add in that the aircraft was a 787-9 and it was a...
I flew AA last week from PHL/DFW. The Admiral’s Club, near A15, was the nicest, and I’m guessing newest, I have ever been in. The flight departed on time and arrived early. Before departing the F/A introduced herself and the meal service started promptly. The food was pretty good. It included a decent salad, a somewhat warm roll and ice cream for dessert. Add in that the aircraft was a 787-9 and it was a really nice flight. This is anecdotal of course, but based on this flight it looks like they are at least trying to improve their product. I hope so.
You were just dreaming this
Maybe he found a little bit of moonshine left in one (or more) of Doug Parker's old, discarded empties...
All of the "petulant teenager" comments aside, it kinda sound like Mr. Kirby may be using what everyone acknowledges is a struggling AA to deflect from UA's efforts to hang on to second place..."Yeah but it's even worse over there!"
Having just flown United in J from AMS -IAD I'm not sure what he's going on about. Absolutely terrible flight, awful service, not on time, Polaris seats are like coffins. First time flying UA in years and won't be looking to fly them again after.
and yet there are rabid UA fans that think Polaris is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It is a high density business class product that is far less comfortable than AA or DL's non-suite products such as the Cirrus seat which is plentiful on both of their fleets.
The UA fan nuts can't admit that the Delta One suites on the A350s made Polaris obsolete the day Polaris entered service. Now that DL is...
and yet there are rabid UA fans that think Polaris is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It is a high density business class product that is far less comfortable than AA or DL's non-suite products such as the Cirrus seat which is plentiful on both of their fleets.
The UA fan nuts can't admit that the Delta One suites on the A350s made Polaris obsolete the day Polaris entered service. Now that DL is at 80 aircraft with Delta One Suites on the 350s and 339s, UA will never catch up.
and DL's onboard service in all cabins on international is consistently better than UA's. Not globe leading but better than UA. I just flew more than dozen airlines over 25K miles and DL's service is as good as or better than many airlines which many regard as higher quality.
you don't have to trust me, though. There are real independent surveys and they rank UA better than AA but not as good as DL for onboard service in all cabins.
Polaris is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The stake, inedible, riddled with maggots bread is called Delta One.
not a surprising comment from a homeless UA employee at ORD.
Easy to say when your flight attendants are the lowest paid of the big three. Whenever they pass a new contract, their labor costs are going to absolutely skyrocket. If it drags out much longer with no new contract, employee morale will be in the dumpster fire. Doug Parker famously said AA would never lose money again and we saw what happened. Kirby better learn to keep his ego in check and his mouth shut...
Easy to say when your flight attendants are the lowest paid of the big three. Whenever they pass a new contract, their labor costs are going to absolutely skyrocket. If it drags out much longer with no new contract, employee morale will be in the dumpster fire. Doug Parker famously said AA would never lose money again and we saw what happened. Kirby better learn to keep his ego in check and his mouth shut because he will eventually have egg on his face. AA got serious problems but Kirby is acting too cocky for his own good
it honestly is stunning why you UA FAs and mechanics are as docile as you are while being taken advantage of by UA execs.
There has got to be some serious koolaid being passed around to keep labor from acting out; AA FAs were far more vocal.
UA has lowered hiring standards to only needing a pulse. Thus the new FAs coming on think the pay is great. When you’re almost homeless and you can get a job you think that life is great and you shouldn’t complain. Pass the Kool-Aid.
It honestly stunning why DL flight dispatchers are as docile as they are while being taken advantage of by DL execs.
There has got to be some serious Koolaid being passed around to keep them from acting out after being without a new contract for over a year.
A lot of hot air out of someone who could easily have a strike on his hands very soon
My wife retired from American as a gate agent with 36 years. She was at DIA the last 12 years. The management at DIA was horrific. She came home from work one day and said “I’m done, time to retire. There was no enthusiasm with any employee. The employees were over worked and had no support from management. It’s no surprise the situation American is in.
Im not surprised. American charges about the same as its competitors, but offers the smallest seats. The cabins aren't as nice as Delta's. They have terrible reliability issues, and bad customer service to match.
I flew American twice a week for 3 years and switched to Delta last year after getting fed up with constant delays, missed connections, and cancelations. American stranded me at MSP so I jumped on a Delta flight and never...
Im not surprised. American charges about the same as its competitors, but offers the smallest seats. The cabins aren't as nice as Delta's. They have terrible reliability issues, and bad customer service to match.
I flew American twice a week for 3 years and switched to Delta last year after getting fed up with constant delays, missed connections, and cancelations. American stranded me at MSP so I jumped on a Delta flight and never looked back.
Southwest's coming changes (assigned seats and free wifi) will make them more appealing to me as an alternative to Delta if they're too expensive or dont have a direct flight.
While most of the terrible things you said about AA is correct (such as both soft/hard products, marginal higher delay and cancellation overall) BUT American is the cheapest to fly in comparison of United and Delta. And I’m not just talking about cash fare. You are in a point and mile site, most people do NOT fly with cash here. The opportunity cost to produce AA mile is 0.6 cpp and you can easily get...
While most of the terrible things you said about AA is correct (such as both soft/hard products, marginal higher delay and cancellation overall) BUT American is the cheapest to fly in comparison of United and Delta. And I’m not just talking about cash fare. You are in a point and mile site, most people do NOT fly with cash here. The opportunity cost to produce AA mile is 0.6 cpp and you can easily get outstanding value by redeeming AA miles. I constantly redeem 7500-10000 AA miles for a one way ticket would cost 200-300 otherwise. Essentially, I’m paying 60 dollars with 5.6 dollars for a 300 dollars flight. (Probably would have to pay 400-500 on Delta) See if you can beat that with Delta or United lmao.
And AA Elite status is very easy to earn through some techniques. Having some delays? AA EP line is very helpful. I haven’t once flew Delta since they switch to LPs schema. I flew some United still because of cumbersome Amex Plat United Travel funds need to burn with their 5-year expiration.
Delta abandoned me at MSP and I jumped on United and never looked back.
If AA were to fail, many smaller airports, like the one in my town, I would be forced to 1-2 hours to the nearest airport. Now I drive 10 minutes to get to my airport to fly AA and can travel most anywhere else in the world from AAs hubs.
I am in no way predicting that AA will fail but if there is a legitimate market in these cities, DL or UA or other carriers will start service if AA is unable to continue to serve them.
the bottom line is that AA's focus on connecting small and medium-sized cities is expensive and does not generate the revenue that DL gets from a far more robust domestic system focused on connecting the largest markets...
I am in no way predicting that AA will fail but if there is a legitimate market in these cities, DL or UA or other carriers will start service if AA is unable to continue to serve them.
the bottom line is that AA's focus on connecting small and medium-sized cities is expensive and does not generate the revenue that DL gets from a far more robust domestic system focused on connecting the largest markets and smallest domestic and int'l markets and UA gets from its large international system and proportionately less expansive domestic system which is much more heavily concentrated at UA hubs.
both DL and UA can adapt and fill the holes that AA might leave.
and on a larger scale, we are moving towards 5 legacy/global carriers from the 3 we have today. WN will fly widebodies to international destinations in 5 years and AS is determined to join the AA, DL, UA club. Other players will fall into those models.
AA simply has no choice but to fix itself financially or other airlines will be able to do what AA is not doing now - which is make money and provide acceptable levels of service.
All 3 of these US airlines suck. There, I rewrote the story for you. American airlines South America routes are dead to me as long as Miami International Airport exists in the current refugee camp state of disrepair and inconvenience exist.
I agree with Kirby here although I'm not a big fan of how he's sucking up to the current regime, although I realize he needs to.
I just booked a Christmas flight and AA in business cost me less than what UA was charging in coach. Ill miss United excelled IFE, but the prices are out of control.
the difference should be obvious. UA is trying to push its yields up - which fell badly in the summer because of overcapacity - and is trying to get yields like DL's.
But UA doesn't have market control near to the degree DL has = DL spent decades growing its network in the places that give it pricing control that UA will never have because UA's hubs are simply more competitive.
AA doesn't have to...
the difference should be obvious. UA is trying to push its yields up - which fell badly in the summer because of overcapacity - and is trying to get yields like DL's.
But UA doesn't have market control near to the degree DL has = DL spent decades growing its network in the places that give it pricing control that UA will never have because UA's hubs are simply more competitive.
AA doesn't have to price at trash fares - just lower than UA - in order to maintain a loyal customer base.
Remember that Kirby has been talking for years about eliminating ULCCs and LCCs including WN at DEN; AA offers far more than 25% of the capacity in the industry depending on how you rate AA vs. WN's product.
AA is a long ways from being pushed out of the market by another legacy carrier.
AA can and will subsidize its ORD operation with profits from its far larger and more profitable DCA, DFW and CLT hubs than what UA gets at ORD.
That Kirby even thinks it possible to push AA out of ORD highlights his disconnection w/ reality.
TD, "the difference (price) should be obvious. UA is trying to push its yields up"
That is hilarious. What an 'analyst'.
what is obvious is that UA has dumped capacity into the market trying to drive the ULCCs out of business and it was NK - which has greater overlap with AA and DL than UA - is the ULCC in chapter 11.
F9 is the ULCC most directly competitive with UA and F9 is INCREASING their flights in UA hubs. Apparently they are pretty comfortable they can compete just fine w/ UA.
Poor leadership...
what is obvious is that UA has dumped capacity into the market trying to drive the ULCCs out of business and it was NK - which has greater overlap with AA and DL than UA - is the ULCC in chapter 11.
F9 is the ULCC most directly competitive with UA and F9 is INCREASING their flights in UA hubs. Apparently they are pretty comfortable they can compete just fine w/ UA.
Poor leadership to think you are going to put ULCCs (and AA) out of business and you tank your yields worse than any airline in the country.
at least you stopped short of telling us that FCF shows up on the income statement. I can only thank you for leading Max into that trap. He fell right into it.
the fact that FCF doesn't appear on an income statement should be proof enough that it isn't income.
btw, mini brain, I'll cherish (and reuse) that statement about cash flow and income statements for YEARS to COME - or until you choose to walk away.
this is like the "even God himself couldn't sink the Titanic" moment or more apt the time when AA's CEO said the business would never lose money again (and then covid hit a short while later).
I've been ExecPlat for about 15 years, ORD-based, and I think Scott Kirby is right. AA is cooked.
This year, I'll earn 1K on United. I started flying AA because AA's lousy ORD schedule couldn't get me where I needed to go--and tickets were typically more expensive for less convenience.
And what I have discovered is that UA is better in nearly every meaningful respect. Better clubs. Better tech. Better ground service. Better schedule. Better...
I've been ExecPlat for about 15 years, ORD-based, and I think Scott Kirby is right. AA is cooked.
This year, I'll earn 1K on United. I started flying AA because AA's lousy ORD schedule couldn't get me where I needed to go--and tickets were typically more expensive for less convenience.
And what I have discovered is that UA is better in nearly every meaningful respect. Better clubs. Better tech. Better ground service. Better schedule. Better on-board product (though, admittedly, some inconsistency.). Onboard food isn't as good, but onboard service is better.
AA's problem is sheer leadership and operational incompetence.
Examples: last week, I had a day trip to Orlando. The morning flight boarded on-time, around 6am, and then took a maintenance delay. It was classic AA:
--New departure time would be posted only after the old departure time had passed.
--We got deplaned and told to rush to a new gate for a new plane.
--Upon arrival at that gate, there was no new plane--instead there was an international flight in the final throws of chaotic boarding.
--After a few more rounds of 10-15 min. rolling delays, we got sent back to the original gate to re-board the original plane.
--We departed nearly three hours late.
Apparently AA's new "customer centric" culture kicked-in for this incident: for the first time ever, I got a proactive note from AA apologizing for what happened with the flight. This note included zero compensation.
Compare this to UA: I've barely had any delays. The one delay I did have, two hours for crew rest, was sent to me the night prior, with a clearly stated reason. So, instead of wasting away my life in 10 minute increments (as on AA), I simply planned my day around the clearly announced and communicated delay.
Today, I am flying from MCO-DFW. AA had two agents working the priority line at DFW. It was nearly a 40-minute wait to check my bag. When I got to the agent, he then claimed I had no reservation--even when I showed him the reservation on my app, with the record locator. He then realized he was still in a CLT departure screen. "Ooops, sorry."
Then I attempted to go to the Admirals Club in MCO. There was a Delta-style line to get in. Once in, totally gross conditions--bathrooms that hadn't been cleaned for hours (piss all over floor and toilet seats) and a disgusting, over-picked buffet. And no seats.
We then got to the gate for the 777-200 to DFW. Nice business class seat! But, because AA refuses to have any logic to its boarding process (lines, etc., as UA does), it was total chaos. The inbound was 20 minutes late--but of course the departure time stayed "on-time" because, yeah, it's totally realistic to completely deplane and then board a 777-200, from a single jetbridge, in 20 min. So, of course, we got the rolling delay treatment--only after the original departure time passed did we get a short delay to reflect the realistic boarding time.
Then there were thunderstorms in Dallas. We delayed three hours over the course of about 20 min. Within these three hours, we:
--Deplaned again. Except that (remember, Orlando is the origin, so there are *lots* of families) the agent said--literally--"it's too much work for us to get strollers." So the families got to deal with no strollers, etc. for several hours as their kids ran around the terminal. Because AA's staff thought it was too much work to help customers.
--Admirals Club had a line of 40+ for entry.
--Boarded again...and delayed 45 more min. for another delay in DFW.
Then we went out to the runway and sat. And then DELAYED FOR MAINTENANCE and returned to the gate a second time. The captain said "it's an issue we can fly with, it'll just be a few minutes of paperwork."
After about 15 min. back at the gate, AA pushed out a text declaring the flight would leave at 6a tomorrow. And then re-issued boarding passes in everyone's app. The captain nor crew had any idea. So we had several minutes of total confusion, until the gate agent boarded and said that, yes, indeed, the flight had delayed (for maintenance!) until tomorrow morning. But also told us that we needed to be patient because "weather in Dallas."
As we deplaned, the agent then announced, "There's one of me, and lots of you, and I want to go home, so I'm not rebooking anyone." Literal quotation. The tone read "go eff yourselves."
Well, fine--I'll rebook on the app. Except that the app shows the flight as departed still and thus won't access rebooking options. That's right, the app has reissued a boarding pass for tomorrow morning but also thinks the flight has departed.
Well, fine--I'll look on the website. Press "change your reservation" and you get a message that says, "This reservation cannot be changed online. Please call." (The reservation was booked on AA.com.)
You call. Wait time to speak with an agent?--hours. For EP?--still an hour. After all, it rained in Dallas. It's now been over an hour and the callback function hasn't produced the promised callback in the promised timeframe.
The Admirals Club line in MCO has 100 people in it now, and the customer service line--well, it has everyone from a full 777-200. With two agents.
And, despite the flight now leaving at 6a tomorrow morning and being full of people who no longer can make their connection in Dallas and who don't want to travel, the agent announced: "We've decided it's too much work to unload the bags, because they are in containers." Another literal quotation. Again, the message is, "We've decided it's too much work to help you," delivered with a tone of "and go eff yourselves."
As people groaned, she then said "When someone who is paid to make that decision decides something different, I'll tell you." That gives you a little insight into what she thinks about the quality of her management.
Of course, think this through: instead of doing the right thing, and releasing the bags (no one is flying to Dallas tonight, and even those going to Dallas would, say, like their clothes and toiletries ... and their strollers), AA will now fly a whole bunch of bags to Dallas for people not going to Dallas and have to figure out what to do with them. And have a whole bunch of people generating traffic on their online and phone channels with complaints that results in work fir their team. It's a classic example of how, despite AA's "spend no more dollar than we have to spend" mentality, their contempt for the customer and operational incompetence will result in a far more expensive operation. And one that unnecessarily pisses people off even more.
So I've rebooked (myself, by buying a new ticket) on United. And am now sitting in a United Club--without a line.
It is a culture of complete and total disregard for the customer, pissed off ground staff, and operational incompetence. Not to mention, at ORD, a far inferior schedule and set of airport facilities.
So, yeah, at least until there's a major change at AA, Kirby's right. AA is cooked. By its own total incompetence.
What a dreadful experience. I had similar at CLT to SFO. Six hours of rolling “postponements” until they throw in the towel at midnight. Don’t bother trying to get the hotel voucher - by the time you get to the front of of the line it would be 3:00 am. And, somehow I need to rebook to stay in business class (don’t ask me to explain), which costs several hundred dollars more. Really a crummy experience.
Amen. Excellent summarization of my time flying AA. Sadly I’m DFW-based and having to connect somewhere flying UA or DL is equally unappealing. Need to relocate.
THIS is what Isom has created
AA was not like this when I was working for them a decade ago. Back then I was proud to work for AA, and I took pleasure in serving my customers. Now, sadly, this story does not surprise me. And even with an employee/retiree discount available, when purchasing plane tickets I rarely fly AA anymore. Isom has destroyed employee morale, destroyed the brand and the product. It's so...
THIS is what Isom has created
AA was not like this when I was working for them a decade ago. Back then I was proud to work for AA, and I took pleasure in serving my customers. Now, sadly, this story does not surprise me. And even with an employee/retiree discount available, when purchasing plane tickets I rarely fly AA anymore. Isom has destroyed employee morale, destroyed the brand and the product. It's so sad. I agree that it doesn't have to be this way, but I can't envision a future where AA turns things around with Isom at the helm.
Cocaine is a heck of a drug. These comments coming from the CEO of company with the largest corporate bankruptcy in history when they went bankrupt….just a few years ago.
AA would help themselves to return IFE screens to the seat back, work on friendliness of FAs, and set themselves apart with something such as offering domestic first lounge access.
If United is the best why are their flight attendants top6 and not top1 paid in the industry? Something doesn’t add up.
AA's biggest problems are its generally surly/lazy/uncaring staff and uber-cheapskate approach to its soft product. Perfect example: I've been flying for 35+ years. In all that time, I've never had an issue with a checked bag getting delayed on a nonstop flight, especially when I show up to the airport two hours in advance of the flight. But AA managed to break that record two weeks ago. Another example: When I take DL or UA...
AA's biggest problems are its generally surly/lazy/uncaring staff and uber-cheapskate approach to its soft product. Perfect example: I've been flying for 35+ years. In all that time, I've never had an issue with a checked bag getting delayed on a nonstop flight, especially when I show up to the airport two hours in advance of the flight. But AA managed to break that record two weeks ago. Another example: When I take DL or UA from MIA or FLL to DC in F, I am almost certain to get a meal. On AA? It's the dreaded snack basket, coupled with only one drink, as the FAs almost always hide out in the galley and ignore the pax after doing that bare minimum. I don't know how you make employees care, but they could at least make much faster strides at stepping up their soft product game ASAP.
IIMHO, to discuss the airline industry and brand loyalty in the same sentence is nothing short of absurd!! With few exceptions (Ex LAX, Ohare) there is little or no competition in most major american cities. You are a hostage to your hub carrier and fly it not because your loyal but because you have no real alternative (talking about bus flyers)
United is the WORST. Almost always late, frequently cancelled. Recent flight from Newark to Dubrovnik turned around in the middle of the Atlantic and rescheduled flight didn’t take off until late evening the following day, after, yep, another delay. My bag arrived in Croatia a day late, with a wheel ripped off.
At least your bag wasn't *sent* to Dubrovnik instead of the 324 miles it was supposed to have been from Newark to Portland, Maine, as they did with ours. Good times. That said, I don't expect better from anyone else.
We need 3 big airlines that service a country of 330 million people in the USA and overseas travelers. If you go to a monopoly of 2 big airlines, you will see Sky High fares, and a loss of service at smaller airports. I am rooting for American Airlines and want to support their success.
Scott can say all he wants: “Fly the Friendly Skys” is the biggest oxymoron slogan in the industry. _Every_ time I have flown United I feel like a nuisance to the flight attendants, like they really wish they didn’t have to deal with their customers. I avoid United like the plague.
That’s because the flight attendants haven’t had a raise in three years and United is exploiting them while they drag out the finalization of their labor contract. United needs to get their crap together and take care of their employees, not exploit them.
Like Brian i avoid united for the same reasons. i was once in line at security in KC behind 2 UA flight attendants and one said to the other “your id is backwards “ and the response was “ i don’t want passengers to know my name”
on boarding heard her arguing with a customer.
Kirby has an axe to grind with American. When the board of directors at American asked Parker to remove either Isom or Kirby, Parker kept Isom, which infuriated Kirby.
That was the second time Kirby had failed at something big, he did not make it through pilot training at the Air Force Academy.
And he was not instrumental in executing the mergers that Doug Parker and Isom accomplished.
Hey Scott Kirby!!! Talking about losing labor!!! Your mechanics are starting to get very upset!! We are tired of waiting! Pay is what we deserve!! After all your golden boy pilots are flying anywhere with out us!!! No more games!!
In over 5 decades of flying, I have not once had a good United flight. Delays on every one. Lufthansa, yes. We flew American 2-4 times a year on American and had good experience. Haven’t used them quite so much in recent years as Delta’s schedules work better for us. We think Delta is pretty hard to beat.
Hold up; let him cook.
American Airlines does not care about their physically challenged customers. They don't even have a dedicated line for us. I will never, and I very rarely use the word never, ever fly on AA because of that. The only three things I like about them are their tie in with SUTC, Susan G Koman and their new livery.
I'll admit. I've never seen a disabled boarding line at AA, DL, UA or WN. I've seen all 4 board those that need extra time in a similar manner. What are you referring to?
I think as the CEO of United Airlines, Scott's job should focus on the performance of UA. Attacking AA does not make him or UA look better.
I have been flying both UA and AA in recent years. Based on my own experience, I cannot see UA provides any service better than AA in domestic routes. They are both OK with me, very basic service. In the international route, AA provides better service/food in premium...
I think as the CEO of United Airlines, Scott's job should focus on the performance of UA. Attacking AA does not make him or UA look better.
I have been flying both UA and AA in recent years. Based on my own experience, I cannot see UA provides any service better than AA in domestic routes. They are both OK with me, very basic service. In the international route, AA provides better service/food in premium cabins in my experience.
Hasn't UA done the contract with its flight attendants? He surely has something other than commenting AA's business to deal with.
The sad part is that ALL the United States based airlines are terrible compared to other international airlines in terms of punctuality, lost baggage/baggage included with ticket purchase, inflight services offered and frequent flyer benefits.
I am a U.S. citizen that works for a U.S. based cargo carrier and I live overseas.
I travel for a living and I cringe when any part of my itinerary includes travel with a U.S. based carrier....
The sad part is that ALL the United States based airlines are terrible compared to other international airlines in terms of punctuality, lost baggage/baggage included with ticket purchase, inflight services offered and frequent flyer benefits.
I am a U.S. citizen that works for a U.S. based cargo carrier and I live overseas.
I travel for a living and I cringe when any part of my itinerary includes travel with a U.S. based carrier. They are all subpar, but they have treated passengers in the United States so badly for so long, that everyone has become accustomed to, and accepts the poor service they offer.
It's only because of the benefits of having a credit card attached to the airline of choice, (or something similar) and building FF points in hopes of traveling upgrades that anyone has any loyalty to a particular carrier.
All the CEO's and their "customer experience" teams are really out of touch with what the general public want from and airline.
This.
Dear Scott Kirby, I have a positive i age of UA and a quite negative image of you. Please stfu.
Bravo!! Yes, your sour grapes are sickening to read about.
For a large portion of the country that are not hubs, no matter who your favorite carrier happens to be, it come down to price and schedule. Unless your desired carrier is competitive on those factors, you will fly someone else. In many markets choices are few.
United lost me a long time ago due to consistency in poor and rude service and poor maintenance in the passenger cabin. It was the bottom of the big three in my frequent business travels. We’ll see how it goes next week on my United experience from PDX to FLL AND BACK.
In case anyone wondered, our resident Delta lover is now up to 12 responses and a short essay (~2,400 words) to remind everyone of what constantly goes through his mind:
1. His unrequited love for Delta never dies
&
2. Scott Kirby (who is just busy making millions while Tim is spending his days in a comment section...) is awful and Tim has a very weird obsession with him.
what a surprise that...
In case anyone wondered, our resident Delta lover is now up to 12 responses and a short essay (~2,400 words) to remind everyone of what constantly goes through his mind:
1. His unrequited love for Delta never dies
&
2. Scott Kirby (who is just busy making millions while Tim is spending his days in a comment section...) is awful and Tim has a very weird obsession with him.
what a surprise that Ben chummed the water and Tim came running...
Tim, it's probably time to get a new hobby or just focus on your career. Seriously tim. Do you have a job?
all you have to do is debate the issues raised - but you have proven over and over again, including here, that you are more fixated with me or anyone else speaking to the reality that you are incapable of understanding, let alone articulating in a coherent post.
go ahead and whine Max.
and in case you haven't figured it out, half or more of my replies are to rebel who is nothing more...
all you have to do is debate the issues raised - but you have proven over and over again, including here, that you are more fixated with me or anyone else speaking to the reality that you are incapable of understanding, let alone articulating in a coherent post.
go ahead and whine Max.
and in case you haven't figured it out, half or more of my replies are to rebel who is nothing more than Scott's personal suck-up who jumps on every opportunity to deny reality that shows that UA really is not the shining star that Kirby and his devotees think.
I am grateful that Ben kept the big 3 rivalry articles to a minimum over the past 4 weeks
LUCKY NUMBER 13 POST!
Thanks. I needed one more but didn't want to blatantly ask to get to that lucky 13th post ;)
you're too easy, Tim.
I gave you 10 points to debate and you still are fixated with me.
Get help, max.
Timmy
Everything. Literally EVERYTHING you've said today on this page... I've answered ad nauseam over the years. As have many people
You may enjoy saying the same thing over and over again. I don't. Give me an example of one new thing you've said today that you haven't repeated 1000x elsewhere?
You gave me 10 points? Are we playing skeeball?
You're far too easy to bait and when caught, you do TRY SO HARD to come up with the most pathetic comebacks. ;)
AA isn't a perfect Airline
DL isn't a perfect Airline.
UA isn't a perfect Airline.
The difference between you and me is that you can't admit those very basic concepts. You're obsessed with a company that fired you and that you continue to make VERY clear was a smart company to fire you. ;)
Tim, you consistently fail to respond when people have perfectly reasonable counterpoints. You say let’s just debate facts, but when you choose not to respond at all to a well-presented fact, it doesn’t feel like a good faith offer, nor does it feel respectful. What’s the point?
Note I am not referring to anything you’ve written in this specific thread, because it’s no longer worth the effort to me; you’ll make some good points, but...
Tim, you consistently fail to respond when people have perfectly reasonable counterpoints. You say let’s just debate facts, but when you choose not to respond at all to a well-presented fact, it doesn’t feel like a good faith offer, nor does it feel respectful. What’s the point?
Note I am not referring to anything you’ve written in this specific thread, because it’s no longer worth the effort to me; you’ll make some good points, but you’ll never concede anyone else’s good points (except sometimes Ben’s, which is nice) unless they’re in precise alignment with yours.
Also: for so many years, you’ve argued that in a profit making venture, especially a publicly traded one, the bottom line is the only metric that matters. How do you square that with caring about whether or not Kirby is obnoxious? Why is it relevant, if United is making money under his leadership? Like, his obnoxiousness might annoy me, and it does, but I’m not the one claiming profit is the only truth.
Ivan,
because you, to no surprise, manipulate and distort what I have said and believe.
You and others get all squeamish because I present LOTS of facts and do so to bust the notion that UA is as great as it and many here think they are.
Other airlines and their CEOs don't do it anywhere near to the same degree and certainly not as disconnected from reality as UA and its fans do.
...Ivan,
because you, to no surprise, manipulate and distort what I have said and believe.
You and others get all squeamish because I present LOTS of facts and do so to bust the notion that UA is as great as it and many here think they are.
Other airlines and their CEOs don't do it anywhere near to the same degree and certainly not as disconnected from reality as UA and its fans do.
From a financial standpoint, net profit does matter. and that is primarily pointed at people - esp. UA fanbrats - that try to manipulate any number of financial stats to avoid admitting that UA is not #1 or even close to DL which is and has been the most profitable US airline for quite some time.
All kinds of other metrics matter including customer service and UA simply is much closer to mid-tier or below than top tier - and I don't make up those stats.
and Kirby himself says he seeks attention so it is very much "on the table" to discuss him.
robert fahr,
I would be happy with your suggestion but again note that half of my replies have been to rebel that incessantly tries to manipulate data that shows that UA is not number 1 which is all he and Scott Kirby want the world to believe.
max,
I have never argued that any airline including DL is flawless. But there are a host of metrics including net profits which are relevant for any business and which show that UA is not in the leadership position that UA and its fans want to believe is the case.
The sooner you actually can and do debate the facts I lay out including the 10 points of my first post, the better day it will be for all of us.
Spectrum boy, United beats the klan airline flying Bama to ATL in nearly all metrics. Why does that trigger you so much? Does your dad still fly for klan air?
feel free to list those metrics, Jim.
UA simply doesn't excel at much of anything except for size - which they can't translate into proportionately more revenue, even if only looking at passenger revenue.
The "joy" of debating people like you is because you truly believe what you write and and are as wrong as the day is long (at least at the equator).
UA trails DL in most financial and operational metrics including the...
feel free to list those metrics, Jim.
UA simply doesn't excel at much of anything except for size - which they can't translate into proportionately more revenue, even if only looking at passenger revenue.
The "joy" of debating people like you is because you truly believe what you write and and are as wrong as the day is long (at least at the equator).
UA trails DL in most financial and operational metrics including the DOT's Air Travel Consumer Report, the latest of which says UA's on-time performance YTD through July was #6 out of 10 (that is bottom half), July cancellations were 2.4% (same as DL, both slightly above industry average). UAL was dead last in baggage mishandling and UAL mishandled more wheelchairs and scooters than industry average even though UA was #3 (DL was #1) and DL was one of 3 airlines - not including any other big 4 airlines - that had a rate of 0% involuntary DBs.
The sooner you stop posting grossly inaccurate statements, the sooner I will be free to stop posting the facts you don't want to see or here.
tim
I've responded to every one of your tired ridiculous fanboy statements laden with DL BS for many years.
You don't say anything new. You don't care about facts you just say what you want and get proven all the time and can never admit when you're wrong.
Rebel even brings up FCF and OCF and that UA has made more the last two years yet you call it "fake" and can't...
tim
I've responded to every one of your tired ridiculous fanboy statements laden with DL BS for many years.
You don't say anything new. You don't care about facts you just say what you want and get proven all the time and can never admit when you're wrong.
Rebel even brings up FCF and OCF and that UA has made more the last two years yet you call it "fake" and can't even bother to respond to facts.
That's why you're considered a joke across the internet. Because you are given facts like I have to you hundreds of times yet you ignore it, claim bias, then go off on some other random topic.
You're on the spectrum, obsessed with Delta, and a joke to everyone.
Have you ever noticed how NO ONE takes you seriously? You're a joke, pal.
Come up with new material based on Data.
I'm certainly not perfect but I try to use data, when possible.
first, Max, thank you for actually responding to a fact-based statement instead of your usual personal attacks and post counts.
FCF is not "money made"
and the simple answer as to why UA generates more FCF is because it pays its employees less and has received a fraction of the new aircraft that Boeing esp. as well as Airbus are supposed to deliver.
As soon as UA increases its pay, FCF and profit will go...
first, Max, thank you for actually responding to a fact-based statement instead of your usual personal attacks and post counts.
FCF is not "money made"
and the simple answer as to why UA generates more FCF is because it pays its employees less and has received a fraction of the new aircraft that Boeing esp. as well as Airbus are supposed to deliver.
As soon as UA increases its pay, FCF and profit will go down and as soon as Airbus and Boeing increase deliveries, FCF will go down.
You prove over and over again that you have no clue about the basic facts of business so you fixate on who posts how many facts that you cannot begin to understand.
I'm obsessed with the truth, something you are incapable of accepting.
and I write plenty of things that have little if anything to do with Delta.
But at the crux, you can't stand that DL really does lead the industry in more of the right things than any other airline.
"FCF is not "money made"
Yes, Tim. It is. Income Statements are a product of accounting. Free Cash Flow is real money made. lol. Wow... Is your knowledge level actually this low?
Honestly though... it does explain why you have no concept of financial issues if you believe that.
"I'm obsessed with the truth,"
You're really not. You're obsessed with Delta and Scott Kirby (not Patrick Quayle it seems -- again. no...
"FCF is not "money made"
Yes, Tim. It is. Income Statements are a product of accounting. Free Cash Flow is real money made. lol. Wow... Is your knowledge level actually this low?
Honestly though... it does explain why you have no concept of financial issues if you believe that.
"I'm obsessed with the truth,"
You're really not. You're obsessed with Delta and Scott Kirby (not Patrick Quayle it seems -- again. no surprise since I've known forever where you get your delta insider info and your obsession with patrick only confirms it...) and since your tiny brain can't comprehend it, everyone knows it.
And yet you spend your entire reply with one statement (though at least you acknowledge you were wrong to call Rebel's claim fake. You clearly lied below) that has data and even that statement is wrong. Yes. Free Cash Flow is actually money made in a year. Income statement is not. It incorporates decisions made 20 years ago that have no material impact to what is happening today.
The rest of your reply is your usual attempt to obfuscate and name call, per usual.
Will UA FCF go down a bit when they get their union contracts settled? Yes. but that's how union contracts work. In this administration, a company tends to have the upper hand. Delta has the non union advantage for work rules and firing ANYONE they want (and they do) all the time for most of their workforce. why else does Delta hire SVPs to prevent unionization? Why do they spend so much money trying to prevent unionization?
"But at the crux, you can't stand that DL really does lead the industry in more of the right things than any other airline.'
Omg. Not the usual Tim reply when you have nothing else to say? lol. I really don't care about what Delta does and does not do well. I care about your constant attempts to lie and deny reality. As I've said many times. Delta does many things well. but they aren't perfect by any means and there's not really that much that can't be replicated.
I'm pretty sure your mom is making you some bagel bites upstairs. Time to leave your basement, Timmy.
But the best thing about you Tim?
On a comment noting how much time you waste on the comment section of an article about Scott Kirby? You spend the rest of your day defending your delta and Scott Kirby fantasies.
Seriously. Do you have a job? You seem to spend your day here and every other website.
again, Max, you prove that you are more fixated with who posts what than in debating the issues.
but when you copy exactly what someone else says about FCF and both of you get it wrong, it proves that you aren't capable of discussing the real issues - so you discuss other people and specifically someone that can coherently discuss topics which you don't even understand.
I'll spend as much time as necessary to highlight exactly who you are.
wow, Max,
you are so out of your league.
FCF does not appear on an income statement.
feel free to show me on UA's income statement where their FCF is
you really should just walk away
"FCF does not appear on an income statement."
It really is amazing how you claim someone said something they never wrote or said. You're such an idiot.
yes, Tim. I know what a SCF vs IS is. You clearly do not.
Stop betraying your ignorance. Yes. Free Cash Flow is actual money made since it doesn't include accounting items from decades ago like the income statement does.
God you're an idiot and...
"FCF does not appear on an income statement."
It really is amazing how you claim someone said something they never wrote or said. You're such an idiot.
yes, Tim. I know what a SCF vs IS is. You clearly do not.
Stop betraying your ignorance. Yes. Free Cash Flow is actual money made since it doesn't include accounting items from decades ago like the income statement does.
God you're an idiot and when you're proven to be you just figure "WTF. I'll just say Max said something he didn't say."
Get a life. You're such an idiot.
Tim, I invite you, please, to find an instance of my ever having manipulated or distorted something you have said. If I have occasion to restate something you have said, because of an issue we're "debating," I try to do it as fairly and neutrally as possible, because I believe in the merit of good faith arguments; that's how we learn things. So if I *have* legitimately distorted something you have said, I would wish...
Tim, I invite you, please, to find an instance of my ever having manipulated or distorted something you have said. If I have occasion to restate something you have said, because of an issue we're "debating," I try to do it as fairly and neutrally as possible, because I believe in the merit of good faith arguments; that's how we learn things. So if I *have* legitimately distorted something you have said, I would wish to apologize and do better; please point it out to me.
I have, however, presented my take on issues when asked to do so by you, and, after taking the care to have articulated my perspective fairly, I have been met with silence. Multiple times. It makes me like you're not interested in the same good faith discussion that I am. I think you *intend* to be, but your actions haven't demonstrated it to me.
I make a point of being an honest person, and I don't have any personal need to put you down. I say so when you when I think you are correct or I've learned something from you. You do present lots of facts, which I've benefitted from. You know much more about this industry than I ever will.
But I also take your facts with a grain of salt, because I don't experience a commitment to objectivity; I experience extreme pro-DL bias, and often find you select facts to fit a narrative of DL being better. (And, to be clear, while I have somewhat limited experience with DL, I have flown with them to see that they *are* better in several regards. And worse in some others.)
I do not care whether which airline is #1 financially. UA were my preferred airline for a long time, and I guess nominally still are, though they've succeeded, over the past few years, at moving me from loyalty to indifference. I did like what they provided for me as a customer, but was always ready to criticize them when they did wrong. (I care about whether a company gives me want I want or need, not whether they please their investors; it seemed to me that they UA screwed up their execution fairly regularly, but they did at least used to make it right by me, which they no longer bother with.)
I never said it was not on the table to discuss Kirby, and you are, well, manipulating and distorting what I said to claim so. I asked how you reconcile "only profit matters," which is your usual justification to criticisms of DL from a customer experience perspective, with caring about whether Kirby's a jerk. If UA's doing well under him, why do you care whether or not he's insufferable?
Ivan,
all that keyboard pounding and you still don't get the point.
You repeatedly say that I am pro-DL biased and discount other people's facts - but you can't or don't actually debate the facts which you say I discount.
In THIS article and its comments, multiple people have said that FCF matters more than profits - something they have said elsewhere.
FCF is simply not the most important financial metric...
Ivan,
all that keyboard pounding and you still don't get the point.
You repeatedly say that I am pro-DL biased and discount other people's facts - but you can't or don't actually debate the facts which you say I discount.
In THIS article and its comments, multiple people have said that FCF matters more than profits - something they have said elsewhere.
FCF is simply not the most important financial metric for financial performance of any company.
and, more importantly, the very same people that tout that argument about the value of UA's higher FCF can't accept that UA's FCF is higher because it pays its employees less - easily verifiable - and has received far fewer airplanes than it has on order. Either of those two things would deplete UA's FCF at a faster rate.
Maybe those aren't really the "facts" that you want to discuss but I will challenge you and anyone else that makes bold claims without being willing to discuss them.
Challenging someone's assertion of facts which are only backed up by those people's statements - often contrary to company execs - is what fact-based discussions should be about.
I don't care and have never challenged your or anyone's loyalty to a company based on your own perceptions of service.
Tim, you're right! I can't! I don't even want to! I don't really care about company financials. I care about "does this company offer me products I want at a price that I'm willing to pay, and do they treat me with respect," and not a whole lot else.
I *do* care when I accept your invitation to "debate," and am met with silence, especially since I try to avoid the mocking and insult that...
Tim, you're right! I can't! I don't even want to! I don't really care about company financials. I care about "does this company offer me products I want at a price that I'm willing to pay, and do they treat me with respect," and not a whole lot else.
I *do* care when I accept your invitation to "debate," and am met with silence, especially since I try to avoid the mocking and insult that some others indulge themselves with.
I *do* care when you ask an actual rare interested question, like, what's so great about the UA app, and I take time to answer, and you don't take the time to respond or say thanks.
I *do* care when I ask, "how can I take you seriously as an analyst, despite your considerable knowledge, when I never have heard you say a single critical thing to say about Delta [no longer true, I saw one recently!], and find a way to praise Delta in response to articles that don't even mention Delta?" And you don't answer.
Because it's a real question. You know tons of things, and I'm trying to tell you how they'd be more influential to me, but you don't answer, unless it's to say, "I just present facts, unlike others here."
But when facts are completely one-sided and lead to only one conclusion, in aggregate, they're no longer facts, they're propaganda. I become suspicious, even when I have no way of critically analyzing some facts, when every fact on offer makes DL look good, and you never say anything negative about DL. It just looks like bias. No entity on earth exists without flaw.
If I wrote about something I love -- say, NYC, the greatest city on earth as far as I'm concerned -- that you were neutral towards, and there were a blog about cities, and every time anyone wrote anything like "hey you know what, L.A. has an incredible freeway system I love driving my car on it" and I responded with "yes but NYC is better and here is this avalanche of data that proves it," and then they say "yeah but they don't have freeways and I love freeways" and I said "yes but NYC is better because more people live there" and then they said "yes but you can go so much further on freeways" and I said "subways are more efficient than freeways and transportation efficiency the most important metric and that makes NYC #1," you'd probably stop taking me seriously, even if my facts were substantially correct and sometimes interesting to you. Obviously this is exaggerated, but it's an illustration of my experience with "debating" you.
As for, "I don't care and have never challenged your or anyone's loyalty to a company based on your own perceptions of service." I mean, we're obviously talking past each other, but this is so untrue I'm at a loss as to where to begin.
You've said -- I paraphrase, perhaps inaccurately, but feel free to help me get it right -- more times than I can even remember, that caring about anything other than financial performance of a public, for-profit company displays a fundamental and naive misunderstanding of why companies exist, and you've used this philosophical foundation for a justification of why Delta, as the most profitible company, is the best US airline (if not worldwide airline).
And: going after me for "keyboard pounding" and disparaging me for not "getting the point?" Seriously? You're that much smarter and better than me? First off, neither of us are exactly models of brevity. Second, sure, I'm not getting the point that *you're* telling me to get, which is that the facts that *you've* decided matter are the only facts that matter.
But, you don't get to unilaterally set the terms of the debate. If I'm not getting the point, then neither are you. You get to be challenged on what you choose to say, and you offer lots of subjective opinion about Kirby (and other topics) that aren't facts, and aren't data, and are just your feelings.
Which is fine, except that you've dismissed if not disparaged the subjective feelings and perspectives of me and others when they're in the smallest way negative towards Delta. So, it feels like hypocrisy to me, as does not answering me or others when you invite "debate." And I am annoyed by that hypocrisy.
I blame Ben for allowing anyone to respond more than two responses to any one one post. Ben is the moderator for his blog. Perhaps all the extra clicks are worth it to him but unbridled responses lowers the value to me.
You're not wrong. But that also doesn't bother me as much as that anyone can post as a guest. People should either join this community or not be able to post. That would deal with the vast majority of the problems in the comments.
Tim is just...Tim.
maxpower is a registered user on this site but that doesn't mean that he didn't open this thread based on the notion of being "concerned" about how much I post and then kept it alive by making one factually incorrect statement after another - the worst of which is that cash flow appears on an income statement.
and he and other people repeatedly made statements about my character instead of discussing the actual factually...
maxpower is a registered user on this site but that doesn't mean that he didn't open this thread based on the notion of being "concerned" about how much I post and then kept it alive by making one factually incorrect statement after another - the worst of which is that cash flow appears on an income statement.
and he and other people repeatedly made statements about my character instead of discussing the actual factually based statements I presented - including an easy 10 point list which is based on things that are factually true or false and not emotion or any other user.
Tim is Tim on here because of the low quality and personally charged posts that so many make; this sub-thread became the longest on this article for the same reasons that most do - because some people can't accept and debate actual facts so attack other people.
The sooner that they learn their strategies are as flawed as UA's capacity dumping strategies, the sooner we can all return to a well-run discussion board and industry.
When AA bought TWA they were the big strong carrier (at the time) and they treated the TWA employees like trash. "Why didnt you leave TWA when you had the chance, you dont deserve any seniority" "your lucky we saved you." and on and on. I don't wish bad karma on anyone because that is the definition of creating bad karma, but seeing American fall so far is slightly satisfying.
Though a lot of what he says is true, the arrogance and narcissism he has, is next level.
note that he says he loves to be in the spotlight. When you distort what you are and have accomplished and relish being in the spotlight more than delivering for the customers that pay your salary, you have lost the plot.
I still believe American has more potential than Delta and on par with United given its young fleet, better mileage value and status benefits, and not being a control freak when it’s coming to alliance partners. And the current American West style management along with Vasu ruined it. Good riddance to Vasu, and now it’s about time to send off Isom.
except AA's fleet is not that much younger. and it is not as efficient as DAL's largely because fleet efficiency involves the entire fleet - regional jets and mainline aircraft. AA has more RJs than any other airline; there are no NEO or MAX RJs in the US and RJs are far less labor efficient than mainline aircraft.
AA simply is too dependent on RJs, is spending less on new generation aircraft than DL or...
except AA's fleet is not that much younger. and it is not as efficient as DAL's largely because fleet efficiency involves the entire fleet - regional jets and mainline aircraft. AA has more RJs than any other airline; there are no NEO or MAX RJs in the US and RJs are far less labor efficient than mainline aircraft.
AA simply is too dependent on RJs, is spending less on new generation aircraft than DL or UA or WN.
Vasu didn't shape AA's current network strategy - which drives its fleet.
AA has had a flawed network strategy for decades and its network strategy was heavily shaped by AA's decision not to seek chapter 11 until well after every other legacy carrier, leaving AA with much higher costs and an inability to compete in the largest domestic markets for years after other airlines started taking share from AA which has never been regained.
TD, "except AA's fleet is not that much younger. and it is not as efficient as..."
Too funny.
UA: 1,060 aircraft, (229 WB), 186 WB/482 NB on order (15.5 average fleet age)
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 26 WB/237 NB on order (14.9 average fleet age)
AA: 1,002 aircraft, (133 WB), 22 WB/278 NB on order (14.1 average fleet age)
and you still can't admit the reality which I highlight.
UA's fleet efficiency is not industry leading, UA's fleet is the oldest.
You still can't grasp that being larger is not better. UA burns more fuel and spews more pollution but generates less revenue per seat mile even if you only include passenger revenue.
even if the comparison is just AA vs. UA, the difference in fleet age is not even 1.5 years. and...
and you still can't admit the reality which I highlight.
UA's fleet efficiency is not industry leading, UA's fleet is the oldest.
You still can't grasp that being larger is not better. UA burns more fuel and spews more pollution but generates less revenue per seat mile even if you only include passenger revenue.
even if the comparison is just AA vs. UA, the difference in fleet age is not even 1.5 years. and UA has a higher percentage of new generation aircraft - as does DL- than AA.
again, there is no new generation powered regional jets.
When you find yourself in a hole you should stop digging. :)
like Max, you resort to personal attacks because you can't debate the facts which I accurately present.
What I said is either factually right or it is not.
Given that it is right, just walk away and admit it.
other people understand the industry better than you and call balls and strikes regardless of who is impacted.
Timmy,
it's not a personal attack to call you a rabid delta fanboy obsessed with Scott Kirby for some odd reason when Scott Kirby doesn't even know who you are.
Those are just facts that you don't like.
But I think it's easy for me and Rebel to note that you didn't respond to his data with anything other than your usual attempt to deflect to a different topic then claim that you're the only one using facts when you're actually the only one not on topic.
once again, Scott Kirby wants to be the center of attention. Did you actually listen to the podcast?
When someone chooses to be the center of attention, it is not at all unusual for the debate to be about him.
the facts are that I present facts which you repeatedly choose NOT to debate - so you can try to throw shade at me.
You have written multiple posts and have yet to discuss...
once again, Scott Kirby wants to be the center of attention. Did you actually listen to the podcast?
When someone chooses to be the center of attention, it is not at all unusual for the debate to be about him.
the facts are that I present facts which you repeatedly choose NOT to debate - so you can try to throw shade at me.
You have written multiple posts and have yet to discuss even once of the 10 points that I made on my first post.
YOU are the problem, Max, because you are more worried about someone else than the content that should be discussed.
Pot meet kettle. ;)
What are the odds that when Spirit dissolves, AA's Board of Directors will replace I$0m with Dave Davis?
Recently it seems that all of the news stories about flight attendants horribly mistreating a passenger all happen on American. Even though I am an AAdvantage Lifetime Gold, it makes me not want to fly American anymore. Not a good way to gain customer loyalty!
If ANY of the news articles said the flight attendant was subsequently fired, maybe I would change my opinion
I had the best AA flight crew two weeks ago. A couple random incidents with thousands of crew, doesnt set the tone for the entire workforce.
and anecdotes on any company that serves over 100 million customers don't mean anything.
AA's customer service metrics as measured by multiple sources is lower than DL and UA's; of the big 4, WN does the best job of resolving customer service complaints followed by DL and then UA
If he’s maga. I’m flying. Really what does that even have to do with anything. lol. Ridiculous
hubris
I agree. Isom and his top aides need to go. Need a huge start over. New plans, strategy. Not happening now, in the past or in their future plans. Board needs to Flush the top.
people need to understand Scott Kirby is spiteful and like a scorned Woman is out out for revenge..............AA FIRED Kirby for engaging in some bad behaviors/ actions done during his employment. Those that Know, KNOW. Kirby is not some Bastion of Professionalism.......AA had every reason to send him packing. This is all SPITE.
Complete BS, but nice try.
thank you for confirming, Rebel, that you are nothing more than a paid shill for Scott Kirby and UA that, like him, is unable to admit even basic industry facts that everyone else knows and realize.
Kirby is driven by rage against AA - it has been apparent for years.
and to the post below, WN, not UA pioneered no change fees. UA implemented them to try to slow WN's growth at DEN.
UA...
thank you for confirming, Rebel, that you are nothing more than a paid shill for Scott Kirby and UA that, like him, is unable to admit even basic industry facts that everyone else knows and realize.
Kirby is driven by rage against AA - it has been apparent for years.
and to the post below, WN, not UA pioneered no change fees. UA implemented them to try to slow WN's growth at DEN.
UA puts far more data on its app but doesn't use that data to run a better operation - UA's operation continues to trail DL's by a considerable amount.
And UA has the industry's worst baggage handling; apparently the app doesn't do a thing to fix that.
and you are delusional if you think that UA is anywhere close to DL in terms of number of aircraft w/ renovated cabins.
and does UA even have 10 aircraft with high speed WiFi? DL has over 900.
See complete non-sequitur. :)
there simply aren't videos of other CEOs highlighting drunken behavior that is far from what any leader - let alone a CEO or one aspiring to be one - should be seen doing.
Kirby might not have gotten the DUIs that Parker did but he engaged in much of the same behavior - as evidenced by videos.
TD doesn't like Halloween either. Hilarious. Poor Tiny Tim.
Did parker and Kirby give up their exec titles on Halloween? If not, they were still leaders.
but thank you for confirming that the videos are all real.
As opposed to your 'analyst' photo on SeekingAlpha? Poor tiny Tim. :)
Revenge and anger can be powerful motivators. Does anyone honestly think it matters to United’s board, shareholders and customers what Kirby’s motivation is?
Trash talk Kirby all you want, but the has turned the ship around at United. So he admits he likes the spotlight. Some of you will trash him over that comment, labeling him as arrogant, narcissistic, etc. The reality is that Kirby knows who he is and is unapologetic about it. People...
Revenge and anger can be powerful motivators. Does anyone honestly think it matters to United’s board, shareholders and customers what Kirby’s motivation is?
Trash talk Kirby all you want, but the has turned the ship around at United. So he admits he likes the spotlight. Some of you will trash him over that comment, labeling him as arrogant, narcissistic, etc. The reality is that Kirby knows who he is and is unapologetic about it. People with that level of self-awareness often make better leaders.
Parker,
as usual you are partially right.
first, though, Kirby didn't turn around UA's culture and dramatically improve labor relations which tore UA apart for at least a decade. Oscar Munoz did that job and did it very well.
and, yes, Kirby turned UA around; AA and UA both should have never let DL run away with the show after DL emerged from chapter 11 but that is what happened.
as...
Parker,
as usual you are partially right.
first, though, Kirby didn't turn around UA's culture and dramatically improve labor relations which tore UA apart for at least a decade. Oscar Munoz did that job and did it very well.
and, yes, Kirby turned UA around; AA and UA both should have never let DL run away with the show after DL emerged from chapter 11 but that is what happened.
as much as some including Kirby want to believe, UA has not closed the gap w/ DL on an apples to apples basis as much as UA has vastly improved. And most of the strategies that UA has adopted came from DL; Kirby is smart and he knows what works and had a decade of DL's success to realize what UA needed to do.
and the simple reality is that there are plenty of CEOs that do as good or better of a job at running their companies without being so arrogant and ego-centric.
Kirby thinks that being arrogant is part of his success but there are a whole lot of other leaders that are not arrogant and accomplish as much or more.
It is sad that some people praise what others see as character flaws based on the outcome.
Character matters not just in business but in real life.
Kirby is a bit cocky and in many ways, delusional about his airline’s status. United has an unsurpassed route network but I’d not remotely categorize them as the best US carrier.
They lack original innovative ways of enhancing the customer experience and always seem to be reactionary. Usually in response to Delta.
They rarely seem to come up with concepts that the industry follows. Even American has a history of being far more...
Kirby is a bit cocky and in many ways, delusional about his airline’s status. United has an unsurpassed route network but I’d not remotely categorize them as the best US carrier.
They lack original innovative ways of enhancing the customer experience and always seem to be reactionary. Usually in response to Delta.
They rarely seem to come up with concepts that the industry follows. Even American has a history of being far more innovative than United.
They also seem to lack fully developed strategic direction. Some of the new routes they pursue seem to make no sense and they eventually retrench from the market.
No change fees, industry tech leader with best app, most consistent United Next product with Starlink, Bluetooth, screens, enlarged overhead bins, power outlets coming and most premium seating for a long time. Largest fleet and order book at the front of the long aircraft delivery line. Highest operating/free cash flow for the last two years.
Well maybe AA CEO Robert Isom days are numbered will see they need to do something.
Ben says, "As usual, Kirby had nice things to say about Delta, and claimed that by most metrics, United has already overtaken Delta. He also stated that United is already on Delta’s financial level, if you take out the Newark situation plus Delta’s oil refinery business (which is a bit of a stretch, but okay)."
Actually, even with all UAL's capex (9.6B) it has 16.6B/7.1B in operating/free cash flow since 1/1/23 vs DAL's 14.1B/5.7B. Surprising,...
Ben says, "As usual, Kirby had nice things to say about Delta, and claimed that by most metrics, United has already overtaken Delta. He also stated that United is already on Delta’s financial level, if you take out the Newark situation plus Delta’s oil refinery business (which is a bit of a stretch, but okay)."
Actually, even with all UAL's capex (9.6B) it has 16.6B/7.1B in operating/free cash flow since 1/1/23 vs DAL's 14.1B/5.7B. Surprising, but not a 'stretch' at all.
and yet UA still has the oldest fleet among US airlines even though Boeing "mostly" has failed to deliver the airplanes that UA thought it would have.
if Boeing delivered planes per its contracts w/ UA, UA's cash flow would be much lower - and that will increasingly happen as Boeing gets its act together.
And DL has led the industry in increasing pay for its employees. Some people including you clearly don't understand that...
and yet UA still has the oldest fleet among US airlines even though Boeing "mostly" has failed to deliver the airplanes that UA thought it would have.
if Boeing delivered planes per its contracts w/ UA, UA's cash flow would be much lower - and that will increasingly happen as Boeing gets its act together.
And DL has led the industry in increasing pay for its employees. Some people including you clearly don't understand that it takes cash to pay employees.
Get back w/ us when UA increases pay for ALL of its employees at or above DL levels AND Boeing delivers airplanes on time to UA.
and despite your fixation w/ cash flow, UA still trails DL in net profits by $1 billion in just 3 quarters. but, according to Kirby - who prides himself at being a numbers guy - it is all because of UA's meltdown at EWR and DL's refinery. Problem is that UA said its EWR meltdown cost it $1 billion in REVENUE, not profits - and DL's refinery comes nowhere near a $1 billion profit contribution.
You, like Kirby, can't stand to admit the truth so distort and manipulate everything possible to avoid admitting that UA is still #2 and Kirby has not done that much that DL didn't do first five or more years before.
dy/dx
United already pays more $ per employee than Delta. A little 10k profit sharing check doesn’t make up for the all the money Delta saves from being non union. Delta has the worst benefits package out of any US airline.
patently false.
for the first 3 quarters, UA spent more on labor expense than DL - but UA includes profit sharing in its labor expenses while it is a separate line.
On a combined labor and benefits and profit sharing basis, DL spends more on labor costs than UA.
and UA employs considerably more employees at mainline than DL which includes Endeavor - its wholly owned regional airline - in its labor expenses...
patently false.
for the first 3 quarters, UA spent more on labor expense than DL - but UA includes profit sharing in its labor expenses while it is a separate line.
On a combined labor and benefits and profit sharing basis, DL spends more on labor costs than UA.
and UA employs considerably more employees at mainline than DL which includes Endeavor - its wholly owned regional airline - in its labor expenses - just as AA does with its WO regionals. UA has no WO regionals.
UA's labor efficiency both in terms of ASMs and revenue per employee is less than DL's even though DL's count includes Endeavor.
DL's employees are more efficient in large part because much more of DL's revenue comes from much higher margin non-transportation revenue than any other US airline.
as usual, your facts don't jive with facts - but that is typical of UA's online fankids.
Bones, "United already pays more $ per employee than Delta. A little 10k profit sharing check doesn’t make up for the all the money Delta saves from being non union. Delta has the worst benefits package out of any US airline."
I didn't know that. Interesting.
as usual, latching onto falsehoods to avoid admitting reality.
UA pays its people less in salary, benefits, and profit sharing esp. since UA has no wholly owned regionals.
everyone knows that 40,000 UA employees are still waiting for pay raises while AA and WN have implemented new contracts for its mechanics and FAs while DL has given multiple pay raises to all of its non-contract employees post covid while DL's pilots set the standard for pay raises post covid.
Don't worry tiny Tim UA will use its industry-leading op/free cash flow to give the F/A the industry-leading contract they deserve and then DL will match it as always to keep the AFA out. DL F/As should send the AFA thank you notes for pay and ALPA for their profit sharing.
UA FAs will never recover the money they "lent" to UA for the past 5 years, some of which involved some of the highest interest rates the US has seen in decades.
If DL non-contract employees owe anyone anything, it is DL pilots.
but the whole thesis of who owes who anything misses the reality that DL is actually paying its employees more NOW and has been for years.
As long as you want...
UA FAs will never recover the money they "lent" to UA for the past 5 years, some of which involved some of the highest interest rates the US has seen in decades.
If DL non-contract employees owe anyone anything, it is DL pilots.
but the whole thesis of who owes who anything misses the reality that DL is actually paying its employees more NOW and has been for years.
As long as you want to fixate on cash flow, I will remind you and everyone else that employee salaries and benefits are paid w/ cash.
and higher employee salaries and benefits including profit sharing will not only cut UA's cash flow but also its profits which trail DL by $1 billion for the first 3 quarters of 2025.
UA's financial performance is solidly between AA and DL and nowhere near comparable to DL as much as you and Scott Kirby try desperately to convince the world otherwise.
"UA FAs will never recover the money they "lent" to UA for the past 5 years, some of which involved some of the highest interest rates the US has seen in decades."
It truly is amazing how pro union you are for every other airline except Delta. Geee.... I wonder why... ;)
no, Max, airlines don't pay interest on the money they didn't pay their employees during lengthy union negotiations because retro will come - except retro never includes interest.
Pains me to see American be in such a bad shape and yes, agree with many, there's no obvious way out of it. It's an iconic airline. Plus, I'm so used to having major Three, not two. That said, American is abject sh*t compared to DAL and UAL. Has been for many years, hasn't made a single real attempt to narrow the gap. It is freefalling, but has nobody to blame but itself.
Why was Kirby fired from AA?..Why AA terminated his employment?
Reportedly, UA was talking to Isom and he wanted a path to AA CEO or he would leave. Parker wasn't ready to give up CEO so the AA BOD moved Kirby, then president, out and replaced him with Isom.
which still says that AA chose Isom over Kirby.
The sooner you admit that Kirby came up short in his quest for advancement to someone else, the sooner we can all move on.
The irony is that Kirby should be shouting from the housetops for getting released from AA so he could start over at UA where he has done more than he likely could ever have done at AA.
and yet he can't stop looking back and mourning his being passed over at AA.
TD, "which still says that AA chose Isom over Kirby."
No kidding tiny Tim? You must be an analyst. Poor little fella.
Happy employees, Mr Kirby?
And how long have f/as been without contract? Zero respect has been shown to these front line employees that spend more time interacting with customers than any group together
He's not all that wrong albeit it's not like his airline is of the PanAm Clipper days. AA decided to become a Frontier Plus airline and that strategy did not payoff. AA at best will be marginally profitable for the foreseeable future.
For perspective UA has 4x's the international ASMs as Pan Am had in 1973 near their peak.
I remember when AA had the best product, but that ended when Crandall retired.
I remember it too. When Crandall was at the helm, AA had the best service in the US, was the Airline of choice with Captains of Industry and the Entertainment set. They OWNED the Domestic Transcontinental market. What happened?
The physical product (American Airlines) can and is supposed to improve. Fix the often surly flight attendants and other front line employees and then AA can begin to improve all around.
Choose two of the following :
American - British Airways - Iberia
United - Lufthansa - SWISS
Delta - KLM - Air France
American, Qatar, Cathay
United - Turkish - Singapore
Checkmate
I choose AA-QR…
The answer is obvious. United and Delta.
Perhaps this is just my usually flying in and around nyc, but United is a total non-starter, an also-ran with its disastrous, inexplicable commitment to Newark over jfk. Until that changes, which it won’t, the claimed superiority of its in-flight experiences won’t mean much, since most of us with business in America’s largest city won’t be on board by choice.
and UA's plans to grow into JFK even with a limited number of flights will be met by a guaranteed addition of transcon routes by AA and DL at EWR.
or the Port Authority will remove the perimeter restriction at LGA.
Either strategy means that UA will not gain an advantage as much as it wants to believe otherwise.
Neither AA or DL is going to let UA gain an advantage and fix UA's strategic failure in walking away from JFK as much as Kirby or anyone thinks will happen
United had maybe 25-30 departures at its most at JFK, and at the end it was down to maybe 15. It's not like they walked away from 350 departure behemoth. Fact is, after the merger, they had Newark, and Newark has higher fares thank JFK. The decision was made and that's that. They wont ever be everything to all people, but no airline will. And I dont think they or anybody expects UA to supplant anybody at JFK once they regain access.
it's not a question of supplanting anyone.
It is the reality that AA, B6 and DL are the major players at JFK and esp. in the transcon market from JFK. The NYC transcon markets are by far the largest revenue markets in the country. AA and DL have no presence in the EWR transcon markets while B6 has dabbled in them largely w/o success.
First, it is far from clear that B6 is going...
it's not a question of supplanting anyone.
It is the reality that AA, B6 and DL are the major players at JFK and esp. in the transcon market from JFK. The NYC transcon markets are by far the largest revenue markets in the country. AA and DL have no presence in the EWR transcon markets while B6 has dabbled in them largely w/o success.
First, it is far from clear that B6 is going to give UA enough slots at good enough times for UA to start JFK transcon flights given those are also B6' largest and likely highest margin markets. B6 wanted a partner but it still makes no rational sense for B6 to allow a competitor - any competitor - into its largest markets.
second, EWR is schedule coordinated, not slot controlled which means that AA and DL could make the case for expanding their service at EWR and still have more than enough flight times at EWR to add transcon service from EWR if they see the strategic need to do so.
let's see how it plays out but it is not at all likely that UA will gain access to JFK for any flights but esp. for the transcon markets without a competitive response that will more than offset what UA might gain.
TD, "AA and DL have no presence in the EWR transcon markets while B6 has dabbled in them largely w/o success."
Which is what would happen again and is why they wouldn't repeat that mistake. UA wants back into transcons at JFK for the heavy hitters who are headed to the Hamptons.
Jaon, "United had maybe 25-30 departures at its most at JFK, and at the end it was down to maybe 15. It's not like they walked away from 350 departure behemoth."
Exactly.
I am not usually a fan of discussing stories initiated on other blogs but this is one that requires every blogger to carry.
1. Scott Kirby will go to his grave with his middle finger pointed in the direction of Ft. Worth. He needs professional help to get over Doug Parker and AA's board's unwillingness to consider him for the CEO position at AA.
2. Kirby says alot in the interview about what...
I am not usually a fan of discussing stories initiated on other blogs but this is one that requires every blogger to carry.
1. Scott Kirby will go to his grave with his middle finger pointed in the direction of Ft. Worth. He needs professional help to get over Doug Parker and AA's board's unwillingness to consider him for the CEO position at AA.
2. Kirby says alot in the interview about what he has done wrong in the past and how he has failed. That is commendable. He is far less able to admit reality as it exists today, including that UA is not near as great as he thinks they are.
3. UA simply is not "just about on par" w/ DL excluding the EWR situation and the refinery unless UA has significantly misstated the impact of the EWR shutdown. DL has a $1 Billion lead in in profits over UA through the 3rd quarter and the refinery simply has not contributed anywhere near that much to DL's bottom line. IN fact, the refinery is basically operating at breakeven for DL with a long-standing 3-5 cent/gallon fuel cost distribution advantage to DL and even more to UA that is heavily the result of higher fuel costs on the west coast - which is only getting worse.
4. UA still has a significant labor cost advantage over AA, DL, and WN because of unsettled labor contracts with almost 40,000 employees including FAs and mechanics.
5. UA's network strategy is driven by testosterone and specifically Kirby and Quayle's. The result is that UA's RASM decline was the worst in the industry in the 3rd quarter - and EWR had little to do with it because TATL and Latin was the worst. The outcome is that UA is now cancelling routes including to ARN and DSS, markets that DL has served for years and serves with their supposedly dreaded 767-300ERs. It is beyond hilarious that DL has managed to push UA out of DL's strength markets with 767s! UA is walking away from Scandinavia in entirety - a far larger market than any markets that AA and DL have cancelled.
6. AA and DL both have significant domestic network advantages esp. outside of their hubs; UA has said for years that it would grow its network outside of its hubs but that is a huge part of why its domestic RASM is so much worse than the industry - it is growing in the largest, heavily leisure oriented markets because it is focused on driving ULCCs and LCCs out of markets.
7. UA's hubs are all in highly competitive markets and ORD is by far the worst in terms of UA's inability to gain an advantage. AA is simply not going to walk away from ORD. Strategically, they have no alternative to a Midwest hub. WN at DEN is similar; AA at ORD and WN at DEN is simply a battle that UA will not win.
8. AA and UA have the smallest average gauge at ORD among major US hubs precisely because both realize they know that dumping capacity will trash the yields; instead they are using high percentages of regional jets including almost 20% of UA's ORD schedule on CRJ 550s which is the highest CASM aircraft in the US carrier fleet.
9. AA might or might not use their XLRs to begin to build back its international network but DL will be using larger and far more efficient widebodies to grow its network including to Asia/Pacific. UA has far more to lose as AA and DL grow their international networks than UA will gain relative to AA and DL domestically.
10. Isom does not have the personality to be a cheerleader but every other airline CEO has the humility to admit where they and their company are now - something Kirby and his squad are incapable of doing.
AA is the best friend of a whole lot of banks because of the interest they pay but they are more than capable of lasting for years to come - their shareholders are the ones that are losing out.
@Tim,
Sorry did you say something?
Clearly a lot more than you did.
Damnit, Tim. If you'd only brought up how much more awesome the A350 is I would've hit my "Tim's highlights" bingo card.
I mean wow... You really hit your usual talking points
Only DL knows how the XLR works
Gauge at ORD
Labor advantage at UA matters, but the ever-present non-union labor advantage at DL never does
Obviously you hit on your weird obsession with Scott Kirby (though you now seem to...
Damnit, Tim. If you'd only brought up how much more awesome the A350 is I would've hit my "Tim's highlights" bingo card.
I mean wow... You really hit your usual talking points
Only DL knows how the XLR works
Gauge at ORD
Labor advantage at UA matters, but the ever-present non-union labor advantage at DL never does
Obviously you hit on your weird obsession with Scott Kirby (though you now seem to have it out for Patrick Quayle. Weird... but expected given where you get your delta insider info from ;)
Keep up the obsession and unoriginal thoughts, Timmy. It makes you the joke that you are.
Thanks Tim!
Cool
“ I am not usually a fan of discussing stories initiated on other blogs” <——- That’s where I stopped reading.
and yet the day we are all waiting for is when you stop commenting
“and yet the day we are all waiting for is when you stop commenting”
PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, START PRACTICING WHAT YOU PREACH!!!!!!
AA is the worse of the big 3 but it can come out of the hole. It will take several years of effort but it is possible.
Its DFW hub is a fortress that nobody can beat.
actually, DL at ATL is not only considerably larger but runs better than anything AA runs - and DL replicates what it has at ATL at DTW, MSP and SLC
part of DL's success at ATL is the high percentage of mainline aircraft - over 90% which is the highest percentage of any US hub.
and word is that DL might be early retiring the 717s which would be replacing them with even larger aircraft...
actually, DL at ATL is not only considerably larger but runs better than anything AA runs - and DL replicates what it has at ATL at DTW, MSP and SLC
part of DL's success at ATL is the high percentage of mainline aircraft - over 90% which is the highest percentage of any US hub.
and word is that DL might be early retiring the 717s which would be replacing them with even larger aircraft which would further push up DL's gauge. DL's network is simply built on more mainline aircraft which are more efficient with most of their large RJs used for point to point routes including NYC and BOS and their focus cities.
@Derek
With Wall Street moving to Texas next year American did hit the jackpot. Expect increased demand .
all of the south is strong and has been since before covid and yet AA still can't translate that into a profit advantage. AA has that advantage. But the north is not dead. Airplanes are still mobile factories that can be moved fairly easily.
AA simply spends too much to generate too little revenue.
and the Metroplex has been artificially limited in competition but the end of all Wright related restrictions will open competition. AA...
all of the south is strong and has been since before covid and yet AA still can't translate that into a profit advantage. AA has that advantage. But the north is not dead. Airplanes are still mobile factories that can be moved fairly easily.
AA simply spends too much to generate too little revenue.
and the Metroplex has been artificially limited in competition but the end of all Wright related restrictions will open competition. AA may or may not be able to gain as much of an advantage as you think.
DL and UA have far better global coverage including of the entire US compared to AA.
"DL and UA have far better global coverage including of the entire US compared to AA."
Considering Delta serves the least destinations internationally and domestically of the US3, that's a pretty ignorant comment, Tim. AA serves the most domestic destinations, Delta serves the least. UA serve the most total destinations, Delta serves the least.
But as ever, live your dream but just expect that facts to matter. With Alaska now in OneWorld and AA's...
"DL and UA have far better global coverage including of the entire US compared to AA."
Considering Delta serves the least destinations internationally and domestically of the US3, that's a pretty ignorant comment, Tim. AA serves the most domestic destinations, Delta serves the least. UA serve the most total destinations, Delta serves the least.
But as ever, live your dream but just expect that facts to matter. With Alaska now in OneWorld and AA's ability to sell the Alaska network as their own with full status recognition reciprocity, there really isn't a weak area of the country anymore. And spare me your normal BS about JVs with AS and AA. You don't need a JV to have good network and mileage program coverage.
as usual, Max, you count size by the number of dots on a route map and fail to realize that many of the dots that AA and UA have that DL does not have are cities in Mexico served on regional jets from AA and UA's Texas hubs.
same is true for the domestic market; AA serves lots of domestic points but has much lower revenue quality and size in the markets that matter...
as usual, Max, you count size by the number of dots on a route map and fail to realize that many of the dots that AA and UA have that DL does not have are cities in Mexico served on regional jets from AA and UA's Texas hubs.
same is true for the domestic market; AA serves lots of domestic points but has much lower revenue quality and size in the markets that matter - including NYC, LAX and ORD. that is precisely what this discussion is about.
As hard as it is for you to admit, DL has by far the best balance of presence in large domestic market - larger than UA in NYC and LAX - and service to the markets that matter internationally - and DL is growing its international network much more aggressively to fill in the dots than AA or even UA.
AS is a competitor to AA and not a joint venture partner; the sooner you understand the relationship between AA and AS, the sooner you will quit looking like a fool for thinking that what is AS' belongs to AA.
But go ahead and tell us the percentage of AA traffic on AS' network since you are convinced AS bails AA out of AA's strategic failures on the west coast.
Just the data, Max, it is in your little Cirium account.
Spoiler alert: AA doesn't come close to offsetting the advantage UA has on the west coast or DL has on the east coast -USING THEIR OWN NETWORKS.
oh tim. You have an amazing ability to contort and twist simple facts.
lol but you do make me grin. Delta has the smallest domestic and total network. Fact. go back to bed.
And yes. we get it. you hate that OneWorld is the biggest carrier on the West Coast with hubs in every major city. You don't like it. I get it. It doesn't go with your overall view in life but the west coast alliance is real and AA and AS are VERY complimentary partners.
*biggest alliance* rather
:)
"lol but you do make me grin. Delta has the smallest domestic and total network. Fact."
Sure, though if you'll read what was actually written, he said Delta has more global coverage, which is also a fact.
American's higher international destination count, as already brought to your attention, is mostly small cities in Mexico and the Caribbean. When looking at "overseas" (excluding Canada+Mexico(+Caribbean)), AA is the clear laggard between the Big-Three, not Delta.
ImmortalSynn.
Would you care to explain what counts as global and what does not?
Apparently, in your mind. Flying to a random tourism airport in Europe for a few months a year makes an airline more global than flying to more destinations to our closest neighbor?
But the facts remain. Delta is the smallest domestic carrier of the US3. They also serve fewer international destinations than AA or UA. Happy? lol. what...
ImmortalSynn.
Would you care to explain what counts as global and what does not?
Apparently, in your mind. Flying to a random tourism airport in Europe for a few months a year makes an airline more global than flying to more destinations to our closest neighbor?
But the facts remain. Delta is the smallest domestic carrier of the US3. They also serve fewer international destinations than AA or UA. Happy? lol. what a weird attempt at a flex to say what counts as international and doesn't. If we're counting where people actually go? It's mexico and the caribbean, by far.
"Would you care to explain what counts as global and what does not?"
Or, you could just try reading. The comparative distinction was already given. And it's not like that's an opinion, those are IATA/ICAO definitions.
MP, "Considering Delta serves the least destinations internationally and domestically of the US3, that's a pretty ignorant comment, Tim. AA serves the most domestic destinations, Delta serves the least. UA serve the most total destinations, Delta serves the least."
AA dominates Latin America with MIA being the premier TLAT gateway. When TLAT comes back AA will benefit. DL is #3 TLAT and not #1 in any international region.
I have NOT flown on AA since 2013 and will go out of my way NOT to fly them. I am even at a One World Sapphire level (thanks to AY) and I still don't touch AA. Horrible ground service, horrible food, horrible customer service...not to say that United/Alaska/Delta/JetBlue is phenom...but at least I have more pleasant experiences on the like then AA.
"Horrible ground service, horrible food, horrible customer service...not to say that United/Alaska/Delta/JetBlue is phenom...but at least I have more pleasant experiences on the like then AA."
Curious take considering you state yourself that you have ZERO experience on AA since the merger -- 12 years ago.
But sometimes it's more fun and easier to believe what you want than reality.
Scott talks a lot, I think he likes to here himself talk when he got squeezed out at AA he was a little butt hurt and still carries a little chip
If American Airlines goes down, the American consumer is cooked. More than we already are.
I initially read the headline as America is cooked
@lavanderialarry
I guess that leaves DL.
Unfortunately Isom and the C suite has played their bad hand for so long, they don’t have the ability for a turnaround. Vision and turnarounds cost a lot of money, and AA has a ridiculous amount of debt. Not sure they could sell a turnaround to a board. I think it’s 12-18 months more of minor improvements and then. Option 1: change of CEO, new vision, and small turnaround. Or Option 2: Financial Strain, Board...
Unfortunately Isom and the C suite has played their bad hand for so long, they don’t have the ability for a turnaround. Vision and turnarounds cost a lot of money, and AA has a ridiculous amount of debt. Not sure they could sell a turnaround to a board. I think it’s 12-18 months more of minor improvements and then. Option 1: change of CEO, new vision, and small turnaround. Or Option 2: Financial Strain, Board pressure, Bold Vision, and AA being acquired with a debt restructure. My money is on 2.
AA stranded me twice, once because of weather and once because of sheer incompetence. They offered no help finding a hotel or anywhere to curl up for the night. No help, no compensation. I cancelled my club membership and credit card the following week and have avoided them since.
Hopefully not cooked before I can use the 90,000 miles I just received for getting its Globe Card.
I had over 1,000,000 miles in the United Frequesnt Flyer program when I decided I could not stand another United flight - and walked away. Scott Kirby will never change my opinion of United.
Someone needs to call Ben Smith at Air France, he's the guy to fix AA.
United is no shining start in the airline industry. Their flight, Sfo/Fra was 2 hours late yesterday and United couldn't be bothered to rebook misconnecting business class passengers 4 hours into the flight without being prompted.
Kirby needs to mind his own house before throwing stones at others.
My other half and I had a completely different experience with AA last May. We were flying to Belfast via DFW and LHR in business. DFW to LHR flight was late. When we disembarked at LHR AA had a table set up right by the airplane door. On it, was a sign listing several destinations including Belfast. We gave them our names and were handed new boarding passes for our rebooked connection. We were instructed...
My other half and I had a completely different experience with AA last May. We were flying to Belfast via DFW and LHR in business. DFW to LHR flight was late. When we disembarked at LHR AA had a table set up right by the airplane door. On it, was a sign listing several destinations including Belfast. We gave them our names and were handed new boarding passes for our rebooked connection. We were instructed which way to walk and off we went. AA did this without any prompting from us. I agree with folks that overall DAL and UA are better run airlines. However, AA does some things well.
Was that AA doing it well or BA?
AA employees at the table
The thing is Kirby has bad blood with AA or at least it's current leadership team.
While AA isn't doing good. I doubt it's as bad as Kirby described.
This is just another punch from Kirby using any opportunity he has.
As we have seen in recent financial reports, the big three airlines all make a majority of their profits selling points via premium credit cards. How will the industry adapt when many merchants start charging fees to use those cards? Which airline will be able to make a sustainable profit by transporting people and stuff from one place to another?
Emirates.
This is the most interesting thing about the permanence issue. The three airlines make money not from their core business, but from a combination of regulatory loopholes and an oligopoly in an altogether different industry- and that's also a big part of why these CEO statements rarely mention anything about their international competitors who actually are in the business of moving people and goods.
Their business model may carry on working for some time...
This is the most interesting thing about the permanence issue. The three airlines make money not from their core business, but from a combination of regulatory loopholes and an oligopoly in an altogether different industry- and that's also a big part of why these CEO statements rarely mention anything about their international competitors who actually are in the business of moving people and goods.
Their business model may carry on working for some time but it certainly doesn't look like a sustainable long-term strategy from the perspective of those airlines.
United Passenger Revenue per Average Seat Mile:
3Q25 15.8 -5.0%
3Q24 16.63 -2.4%
3Q23 17.04 -1.0%
United Cost per Average Seat Mile
3Q25 15.82 -2.8%
3Q24 16.28 0.1%
3Q23 16.27 -3.6%
American Passenger Revenue per Average Seat Mile:
3Q25 16.11 -2.7%
3Q24 16.55 -2.4%
3Q23 16.95 -6.3%
American Operating Cost per Average Seat Mile
...3Q25 17.49 -2.4%
3Q24 17.92 -4.2%
3Q23 18.70 2.3%
United Passenger Revenue per Average Seat Mile:
3Q25 15.8 -5.0%
3Q24 16.63 -2.4%
3Q23 17.04 -1.0%
United Cost per Average Seat Mile
3Q25 15.82 -2.8%
3Q24 16.28 0.1%
3Q23 16.27 -3.6%
American Passenger Revenue per Average Seat Mile:
3Q25 16.11 -2.7%
3Q24 16.55 -2.4%
3Q23 16.95 -6.3%
American Operating Cost per Average Seat Mile
3Q25 17.49 -2.4%
3Q24 17.92 -4.2%
3Q23 18.70 2.3%
It looks like American’s Operating Loss per Seat Mile is improving over time while United’s Operating Profit per Seat Mile is deteriorating over time. However there is a large cost difference with American’s operating cost significantly higher. Some of that may be negotiating with all its unions.
AA lost me as a customer after many, many years of loyalty and status. As long as UA has a MAGA CEO, I will not fly the airline.
@lavanderialarry
I guess that leaves DL.
Air France. I live abroad. Happily left the US.
United clearly has the most liberal aesthetic of the big three. Hubs in the coastal gateways + Chicago. Blue color scheme, a globe, and an international route network. No focus on the garbage people in the heartland and sunbelt. By donations, it's employees gave substantially more to Harris than Trump--much more so than the folks in Atlanta and Dallas.
Yeah and I wouldn't say UA has a MAGA CEO. He appears to just go with the wind. If the next cycle brings a Newsom or some other D administration, I fully expect him to be a supporter of that.
Not sure maga but he will do whatever and say whatever to get ahead. His big thing is getting the Max 10 certified and "kissing the ring" he thinks will get the airplane certified.
"Amazing joint venture partner" in London? You mean BA??
@ Samo -- Sorry, that should've said "amazing joint venture partner hubs." The point is, in terms of business markets, it's tough to beat having such a strong presence in places like London.
Kirby is delusional. United is not even the best airline in the US, let alone the world or in history. He truly doesn't know how badly many parts of the company operate, or maybe he doesn't care as long as the numbers look good. Sadly, the latter theory is the culture of United in many departments, and driven by Senior Managers. Kirby doesn't have labor on his side. Most resent him and his obnoxious claims...
Kirby is delusional. United is not even the best airline in the US, let alone the world or in history. He truly doesn't know how badly many parts of the company operate, or maybe he doesn't care as long as the numbers look good. Sadly, the latter theory is the culture of United in many departments, and driven by Senior Managers. Kirby doesn't have labor on his side. Most resent him and his obnoxious claims about United being the best. We know we're not because we see the deficiencies everywhere, every day.
AA commercial strategy and network planning lost me as a customer. The board of directors failed in it's oversight role.
I try to put a low-pass filter on all of this. All I’ll say is that in years of flying UAL, I still have my “Glenn’s gotta go” wrist band I got from some FA, and I remember hearing how things were getting all “Jeffed up” just after the merger. Nothing similar for Kirby has snuck through to me as of yet…