As an aviation geek, I love listening to air traffic control audio, and always enjoy the VASAviation YouTube channel, which does a great job covering interesting air traffic control interactions. The latest video from the channel involves an air traffic controller and a Qatar Airways pilot…
In this post:
Qatar Airways pilot struggles to keep up with SFO ATC
VASAviation has the air traffic control audio plus a visual of a recent interaction between an air traffic controller and a Qatar Airways pilot in the cockpit of an Airbus A350-1000 flying from San Francisco (SFO) to Doha (DOH).
As you’d expect, it’s very important for pilots to accurately read back the instructions they’re given by air traffic controllers. That’s especially true on the ground, which is where the most things can go wrong, and it’s also where we’ve recently seen the most close calls. There’s simply no margin for getting things wrong,
While air traffic controllers sometimes talk fast and have a lot of instructions, this is something that pilots are supposed to be prepared for. After all, they’re expected to study airport charts prior to their flight, to be sure they’re familiar with the standard operating procedures at an airport.
In this case, a Qatar Airways jet was taxiing out to runway 28R at SFO for departure, but communication became a bit of an issue, to put it mildly. What makes this so bad isn’t any individual mistake, but rather how many consecutive errors there are:
- The Qatar Airways pilots are supposed to be on the San Francisco tower frequency (since the plane is crossing active runways) but aren’t, and it takes quite some time for them to correct that
- At this point the controller is already a little impatient, saying “third time we’re trying to call you, you gotta be on frequency if we’re gonna move you”
- Then the Qatar Airways pilots are given taxi instructions for getting to the departure runway, which the pilot reads back incorrectly multiple times — first he forgets about crossing runway 1L, then he forgets about holding short of runway 28L
- At this point the controller says “that’s like three readback errors in a row, you need to listen more carefully”
- The controller then tells the pilots of an American Airlines flight that they should contact NorCal departures (which you do after takeoff), yet the Qatar Airways pilot reads that back, saying he’ll contact NorCal departures
- At this point the controller says “no, why would you contact NorCal? I’m still working you. I have multiple airplanes on frequency. Listen for the callsign!”
I can see how all of these mistakes can happen individually. However, what’s most shocking and concerning is how the pilot reads back to contact NorCal departures before even being takeoff clearance. I mean, that’s something even a brand new private pilot would know not to do. It shows the pilot really wasn’t thinking, and that’s giving him the benefit of the doubt.
You can listen to the audio from this situation for yourself below.
The differing perspectives on this interaction
It’s always interesting to see the different perceptions people have on these situations. VASAviation gets a good mix of pilots and general enthusiasts commenting on these situations.
There are a couple of things most people can agree on:
- Pilots at Qatar Airways (and other Gulf carriers) deal with an incredible amount of fatigue, and San Francisco is one of the carrier’s longest routes, so one has to wonder if exhaustion factored into this on some level
- It sounds like English isn’t this guy’s first language, but that’s not an excuse to get details wrong; if you say 28L vs. 28R, for example, that can’t be blamed on a language barrier
Looking at the comments, you have one person who claims to be one of the pilots in the aircraft immediately behind the Qatar Airways jet, and he says the following:
I was there holding short #2 of 01R heading to Boston and the captain and I nearly died of laughing, especially the contact NorCal departure…that was painful to hear. Gosh I was wondering the entire time, the captain seemed to never cue up and made me wonder was it the entire crew’s first time in SFO or what.
Meanwhile someone who claims to be one of the pilots in the aircraft immediately behind the above aircraft had a similar reaction:
I was the Skywest right behind you and we were also dying! Both our jaws were on the floor.
Others give the pilot the benefit of the doubt, assuming he was probably a very junior first officer who was stressed out, and having a controller talk fast in a foreign language didn’t make the situation easier:
All the controller had to do is wait and not ride this poor guy a**. You’re 25, a newly minted F/O with 250 hours, seating in the right seat doing comms while the captain has the tiller. It’s your first time in SFO. The controller is talking really fast, almost yelling at you in a foreign language, you have the wrong mental image of the runways (expecting reference to the 19s instead of the 01s), and now the captain is grumpy because you missed a couple of calls. Holy cow, guys… show some restraint! Everyone can have a first or a bad day.
If that’s the case, my one question is why the captain didn’t briefly take over communications when it was clear there was such a struggle? Keep in mind that flights of this length have four pilots…
Bottom line
An interaction between SFO ATC and a Qatar Airways A350 pilot is getting a bit of attention, after the pilot made repeated mistakes. Errors happen, but perhaps most bizarre of all is that he incorrectly stated to contact NorCal departures, which isn’t a mistake any pilot should make when they haven’t even been given takeoff clearance.
What do you make of this SFO ATC and Qatar Airways A350 pilot interaction?
The pilot should be reported. God forbid if it was an emergency.Does it make you want to fly on Qatar Airlines?
A good controller would have "adapted" to the situation to get the job done .
Issue two instructions 2x2 rater than 1x4 etc .
To try not to use " American" terms like " working you "
Or when instructed to contact the tower give the damn frequency!!
US controllers get the job done but are FAR from the best in the world.
Most off my experiences of USA controllers has been...
A good controller would have "adapted" to the situation to get the job done .
Issue two instructions 2x2 rater than 1x4 etc .
To try not to use " American" terms like " working you "
Or when instructed to contact the tower give the damn frequency!!
US controllers get the job done but are FAR from the best in the world.
Most off my experiences of USA controllers has been .
" could have been better"
Rushed and slightly arrogant at times .
For real professionals you need to look to LHR AMS FRA and HKG .
Much more reassuring as a pilot that these people are actually there to help you in a complex environment.
Pretty much sure he was an Indian doing the Radio while the captain was in control…
Quality on Qatar Airway’s has vanished for them on late it’s much more of making than service quality and professionalism….
I am sharing that something is not related to the topic but it is about Qatar airways in San Francisco, it is called 5 stars airline and unfortunately the customer service department especially the women working there Nishma and Hafsa very rude and unprofessional person.
The other day we had flight from SFO to Doha these two ladies had unpleasant conversations with us even Nishma raised her finger to us.
Once I checked...
I am sharing that something is not related to the topic but it is about Qatar airways in San Francisco, it is called 5 stars airline and unfortunately the customer service department especially the women working there Nishma and Hafsa very rude and unprofessional person.
The other day we had flight from SFO to Doha these two ladies had unpleasant conversations with us even Nishma raised her finger to us.
Once I checked with one of the employee for Qatar she said she is the station supervisor I am so sorry an airline with 5 stars has this kind unprofessional behavior hopefully the airline follow up and find out why the station supervisor is so rude and impolite.
I've flown to all corners of the world. The problem I observed always, was the 'native' English speakers not the other way round. The rest of us "non-natives" adhere to standard phraseology as we were taught right from ab-initio training. You know how many 'natives' there are around the world? Each with their own accent and different from the other? And all talking at different paces. Even crossing USA alone, a Californian sounds different from...
I've flown to all corners of the world. The problem I observed always, was the 'native' English speakers not the other way round. The rest of us "non-natives" adhere to standard phraseology as we were taught right from ab-initio training. You know how many 'natives' there are around the world? Each with their own accent and different from the other? And all talking at different paces. Even crossing USA alone, a Californian sounds different from a Texan and different from a Bostonian and everything in between. You then have a Londoner, an Irish, a Scot, a Welsh etc in little UK. There also Indians and Chinese and possibly a Nigerian in the mix. Then you have the Australian 'mates'! South African Boer etc.
ICAO mandated Language Proficiency checks with different levels. If I was an examiner, I think most of those "natives" would fail their English Proficiency checks with their colloquialisms.
I am not a "native" having emigrated from Africa to Canada. Imagine, until I retired, I was always granted Level 6 language proficiency because it was assumed I was a "native" of an English speaking country when in fact, I am a real "native". Where is the fairness in this you native speakers? Tone down the criticism.
American controllers, especially “close in” and ground seem to think it’s cool to rattle off clearances like a machine gun. It’s easy for them, they give the same clearance (or a version) dozens of times during their shift. As someone else said, when they hear a foreign accent, slow it down a tick.
That said, where were the 2nd & 3rd officers/pilots?! For departure the jump seats should be manned by the relief pilots;...
American controllers, especially “close in” and ground seem to think it’s cool to rattle off clearances like a machine gun. It’s easy for them, they give the same clearance (or a version) dozens of times during their shift. As someone else said, when they hear a foreign accent, slow it down a tick.
That said, where were the 2nd & 3rd officers/pilots?! For departure the jump seats should be manned by the relief pilots; they should be helping with comms, taxi charts.
The captain should virtually never jump in - he’s keeping his head up, manoeuvring a very long heavy jet. It usually rattles the FO more!
PS you should listen to yanks struggle in the UK/EU.
I don't see any humor in the situation, especially for passengers waiting to depart. I agree with the commenter who pointed out that the perspective is skewed, and it's crucial to provide Qatar pilots with better support and understanding. Slowing down communication for flight safety should be a priority, rather than pontificating.
The schedules in these middle east airlines are completely inhuman. Squeezing crews to the breaking point under management by fear. The fact that he didn’t “snap out of it” can be a sign of extreme fatigue. Still, no one cares for that until things go really wrong.
If he can't speak English then he cannot be a pilot. It's as simple as that. He also couldn't be a pilot if he didn't have a pilot's licence. There is no politics, it's a simple requirement of the job.
If I can't speak mandarin, then I won't get a job teaching mandarin in a school.
English is the international standard language of aviation and when that changes, everyone will have to learn another...
If he can't speak English then he cannot be a pilot. It's as simple as that. He also couldn't be a pilot if he didn't have a pilot's licence. There is no politics, it's a simple requirement of the job.
If I can't speak mandarin, then I won't get a job teaching mandarin in a school.
English is the international standard language of aviation and when that changes, everyone will have to learn another language.
This episode is very concerning, but it's even more concerning in some ways of it was indeed down to fatigue.
Talking a little bit more slowly and showing patience is actually better for our safety. I'd rather leave late than crash before takeoff
They need to suspend that pilot for not having enough rest as he is play with 1,000's life's and if they cannot speak English, they should not be flying in English speaking airports as it's a requirement, they are just like those Asians carriers,
It's concerning. I uinderstand that he may have been tired and nervous and delaing with a foreign language but air traffic controllers have very stressful jobs and are in short supply. They are dealing with numberous flights at any one time so this guy or someone in the cockpit should have been on the ball or taken over. I guess I won't being flying Qatar. Sounds like it is best to take a different airlines.
For those who might not be aware, ENGLISH IS THE INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE OF AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL. Why wasn't the pilot proficient in English enough to do his job?
I would not have wanted to have been on this plane and I question whether this plane should have been allowed to take off due to:
- incompetent pilot?
- possible suicidal pilot?
- possible hijacking?
Let's see, international flight and English is not guys first language, and we're upset because he needs a little extra help? This is the attitude of the "greatest democracy" in the world? If we were really Democratic, then we would know that English is natively spoken by only 5% of the world, where Mandarin is natively spoken by 20% of the world, so a true international democracy we would be speaking Mandarin in aviation? Oh,...
Let's see, international flight and English is not guys first language, and we're upset because he needs a little extra help? This is the attitude of the "greatest democracy" in the world? If we were really Democratic, then we would know that English is natively spoken by only 5% of the world, where Mandarin is natively spoken by 20% of the world, so a true international democracy we would be speaking Mandarin in aviation? Oh, so we built the aviation system so we have the final say? Guess what? Airlines built their business so with that logic you have no right to complain about crappy service, seats, etc. because they have the final say.
But in the interest of safety, slow down the instructions and keep the attitude out of the tone of voice. Flustering a foreign newbie only makes the controller’s ego swell. The controller’s attitude can lead to safety issues just as much as the weak language skills of the first officer.
In fact, by having to repeat those instructions multiple times wasted more time. Had the controller spent a few more seconds giving his instructions, less time would be wasted.
May be the pilot could have asked the ATC to speak a little slowly…
Very good standard super quality English by the ATC in the US, as usual....
Most US airliners can't even get a single point route clearance correct when they call in on our unit and I assume their English is pretty ok, so I don't blame this guy for struggling a bit. Especially being 2 days removed from the inbound flight and 12 timezones away from home
Don't blame the first officer, long flights have 4 pilots, one of them should intervene the conversation, Anyway they are trying to promote local talents Qatarnization.
I'd have been putting a call in to pull the F/O. As a passenger, the fact that three errors on comms being identified pre take-off makes me nervous. Regardless of sector length, F/O's and captains need to be on their game - for the safety of all on board and on the ground in their environment.
Pilot quality is always a concern at these airlines. Most come from flight academies - not military.
Why all the issues with US ATC only.
you don’t see this in Europe, Asia, Middle East.
The ATC controller he works in one airport and he think he is smart when talk fast but the pilots fly to 100 airports.
Japan and UK for example they handle a lot of flights we never heard they have a problem with QR or other airlines.
You have to be patient with pilots otherwise stay at beach drink and talk fast as much as you want.
I fly in to the USA and I find the ATC very impatient and rude. Especially JFK. I don’t think they like the ME carriers that much for some reason. London is the best ATC in the world. Calm. Patient. Clear, and very professional. And no I’m not from the UK. But stabs at it ATC in UK generally is subtle. Where in the USA it can be appalling. They can be so rude and...
I fly in to the USA and I find the ATC very impatient and rude. Especially JFK. I don’t think they like the ME carriers that much for some reason. London is the best ATC in the world. Calm. Patient. Clear, and very professional. And no I’m not from the UK. But stabs at it ATC in UK generally is subtle. Where in the USA it can be appalling. They can be so rude and impatient. This guy may be a newbie. We were all newbies at one. time. A good controller would identify that, and do his best to help out, in the interest of safety, instead of berating him in front of the world. Did it help. Nope.
No prove who was hanging on the comm.set in this case, but when I dragged an FO to a US airport for his or her first time, I always used to be the PNF in order to learn them to listen to the ATC.
As a European Controller who has worked with American Controllers, one thing sticks out when it gets busy:
American Controllers are completely intolerant of Aircrew for whom English is not their first language.
Talk fast, expect to get asked “say again”, or get mistakes. You need to slow down and keep it standard. ATC / Pilot interaction is a team game, not “us and them”. Reading ICAO 4444, as well as the FAA’s 7110, would...
As a European Controller who has worked with American Controllers, one thing sticks out when it gets busy:
American Controllers are completely intolerant of Aircrew for whom English is not their first language.
Talk fast, expect to get asked “say again”, or get mistakes. You need to slow down and keep it standard. ATC / Pilot interaction is a team game, not “us and them”. Reading ICAO 4444, as well as the FAA’s 7110, would be a good start, followed by putting yourself in the position of the guy you’re talking to.
Remember - More Haste, Less Speed (and Vice Versa of course).
Excellent point
I fly Qatar all the time. They have the best business class but I am rethinking using them again.
On the phone the men in reservations are often very rude. Also so many black out dates for using miles points!
I flew Emirates last time and was very pleased. BMW limo to a free hotel because of a long layover too.
I am booked with Qatar again but I hope the pilots are better than this one! Still couldn't use my points even though there are empty seats.
I won't fly Qatar airways
well i speak good english but that contoller talks to dam fast especially maybe with an arab on the flight deck
Who ever wrote this article is too informed. When taxing around the airport, even though one is crossing runways, you are on Ground frequencies & not the tower.
This could have been a major disaster.
They Hired any Tom Dick and Harry with a license... especially post covid. Very poor standards.
My view is ...Get professional to operate in such enviornments or dont get out of your region. Simple as that. The world is not your entitled garden.
This pilot should be back to ground training.
Kai Tak airport ( old hongkong ) used to impose a ban on pilots who could not get things straight. You could get a disapproval on your next filing of a flt plan
Having lived in the Middle East, I am unimpressed with the skills of their pilots, and take pause when flying one of their national carriers
Having lived in the U.S., I am unimpressed with your opinion....
If you don't know the people involved or what was happening in the flight deck at that time then all I can say is hindsight is 20/20...
Perhaps this Pilot would be better off working the Doha to Boise flight. He can keep the training wheels on until that flight happens.
Sure... like the American Airlines flight in JFK on Jan 2023.. They were sooo professional that they took the wrong taxiway and crossed runway 04L while a Delta flight was in the middle of the take off run. What excuse are you going to make for that crew? Or are you also going to keep their taining wheels on?
Could be a young inexperienced FO either still in training or newly released or was being checked. Either way the Captain or a senior FO should've taken over comms. Poor guy, stressed due to his seniors, further stressed with a foreign language and an ATC personnel talking fast (which is normal, tho he could also have given the poor guy a break or slowed a bit down) All in all, safety should be the primary concern.
Young inexperienced FO?... on an A350. Seriously?
Yes, actually. Middle East carriers (and many carriers around the world in places that are not the U.S.) hire new pilots straight on to widebodies. 250-hour FOs are not uncommon.
I do think the 1,500-hour rule in the U.S. is a bit excessive, but I think something more like 750 should be pursued worldwide. Far too many cases of actual accidents as well as sloppiness that could have resulted in accidents from low-hour pilots that...
Yes, actually. Middle East carriers (and many carriers around the world in places that are not the U.S.) hire new pilots straight on to widebodies. 250-hour FOs are not uncommon.
I do think the 1,500-hour rule in the U.S. is a bit excessive, but I think something more like 750 should be pursued worldwide. Far too many cases of actual accidents as well as sloppiness that could have resulted in accidents from low-hour pilots that did not belong at the controls of an airliner.
“0n the ground” is NOT where the most things can go wrong…
This is a leaning point in human factors, not an opportunity to bash a foreign crew.
Jeez, there's FOUR pilots on these flights?! Why aren't they taking shifts? A flight like this simply shouldn't be the kind of place for junior personnel, simply because they won't have enough real-life experience yet. Understaffing, maybe?
Do you even know how four pilot operations work? Not supporting this particular pilot but just curious if you have any idea of things work before you typed that comment.
They are taking shifts. That is why there are four of them. Only 2 would be on-station at any given time. After takeoff, the two not working the beginning of the flight will go to crew rest until it is time for them to fly. I'm not really sure why the 4 pilots are even mentioned here. One of them will be taxiing, the other one who is on-station will be working the radios, reading...
They are taking shifts. That is why there are four of them. Only 2 would be on-station at any given time. After takeoff, the two not working the beginning of the flight will go to crew rest until it is time for them to fly. I'm not really sure why the 4 pilots are even mentioned here. One of them will be taxiing, the other one who is on-station will be working the radios, reading checklists, etc. and the other two will be sitting behind them in jump seats. They would not be working the radios, though they might comment to the crew who are flying if they hear or see something dangerous or out-of-place.
The standard phraseology worldwide would be cross runway 01L and hold short runway 01R.
That is the source of the confusion.
That is not correct. The U.S. standard phraseology does not have the leading zero and it is not painted on the runway or the runway signs (nor does it appear on the airport diagram he should have been looking at.) Most countries have things that vary from ICAO SARPs. These are all listed and pilots flying international flights should review them. At any rate, the lack of a leading zero is clearly not the source of confusion here.
Whatever. US Controllers first need to learn ICAO STD Phraseology which ensures ATC-Pilot communication is easily understandable by all nationalities. US pilots are sometimes lost in a similar way when the ATC Controllers in Asia don’t use ICAO Standard Phraseology.
What was not understandable in this?.. Can you explain pls. Its easy to blame. Very difficult to improve oneself and raise their standards. Thats an A350 not an ATR. Certain things are automatically expected.
The funny thing is that an ATR in the U.S. will have an FO with at least 6 times as many flight hours as the minimum for FOs on these A350s.
The so called large airports of the USA are a bloody mess. Take a look around the world with busier and larger airports and the controllers get the job done just the same and with less cluttered communication. Human factors recommendation is max 3 items at one go. Go ahead and squeeze a whole string of stuff at one go and everybody is going to miss it, unless the pilot operates to the US regularly.
There are no busier or larger airports anywhere in the world than the busiest ones in the U.S. Literally all 9 of the top 9 busiest airports in the world last year by aircraft movements were in the U.S. The previous year, the top 11 were all in the U.S.
The Qatari Airways pilot will no doubt become better with time understanding the various accents and procedures they have to deal with around the world and as they become more familiar with the airports where they operate - BUT a controllers responsibility is to communicate, not to chatise or denigrate the skills of the pilots. Lack of patience is not usually a skill that improves with time. Although it may make the controller feel like...
The Qatari Airways pilot will no doubt become better with time understanding the various accents and procedures they have to deal with around the world and as they become more familiar with the airports where they operate - BUT a controllers responsibility is to communicate, not to chatise or denigrate the skills of the pilots. Lack of patience is not usually a skill that improves with time. Although it may make the controller feel like he or she is handling the situation correctly, it most likely did nothing for the safe movement of aircraft but only added to the confusion.
Controller totally non standard and non ICAO and makes several mistakes too.
Qatari pilot does better than some American Pilots in Europe.
Why do you think the pilot was Qatari? I couldn’t pin down that accent. QR has pilots of many nationalities.
ATC instructions were unclear, fast and totally confusing. Does the ATC think that all pilots are American! For God's sake speak slowly and clearly . Almost seemed like a lousy memory game.
A busy airport is not the place to learn communications. ATCs talks fast and only time and practice will get a pilot's brain to hear faster, which is why accurate, complete readbacks are so important to operation safety and although often the cause of flight deck laughter of on freq crews, can be distracting,
I've heard many pilots read back only parts of an ATC instruction and the controller accept it, which I think...
A busy airport is not the place to learn communications. ATCs talks fast and only time and practice will get a pilot's brain to hear faster, which is why accurate, complete readbacks are so important to operation safety and although often the cause of flight deck laughter of on freq crews, can be distracting,
I've heard many pilots read back only parts of an ATC instruction and the controller accept it, which I think can be dangerous. Some controllers tend to be snappy and scolding a pilot on air is not only unprofessional but demoralizing as well and does not lead to better communications.
Why aren't Air Traffic Controllers empowered to "suspend" the aircraft's takeoff clearance and return them to the gate until such time that Airport Authorities have a face-to-face conversation and decide if the crew is "able" to continue operating the flight.
Definitely a Situational Awareness situation. How can you let these guys takeoff and follow ATC instructions and safely get out of the 3 aiport Bay Area flight paths going into and out of the...
Why aren't Air Traffic Controllers empowered to "suspend" the aircraft's takeoff clearance and return them to the gate until such time that Airport Authorities have a face-to-face conversation and decide if the crew is "able" to continue operating the flight.
Definitely a Situational Awareness situation. How can you let these guys takeoff and follow ATC instructions and safely get out of the 3 aiport Bay Area flight paths going into and out of the airports?
Most likely a very underqualified FO. Shouldn't FAA impose minimum flight hours for cockpit crews to be flying for foreign carriers.
As a person who is still flying around the world, I can safely say that flying into US airports is really messed up. Non standard phraseologies all the time. Worse the moment we try to clarify things they snap back at us. No where else in the world I have encountered this. Yes this particular pilot could have done a better job but the underlying problem in general is the US ATC personnel.
Really??? Tell that to the American Airlines flight 965 to Cali in 1995 that crashed into the side of a mountain... talk about sitational awareness. Should ICAO CAAs in Europe and the rest of the world apply the same to U.S. carriers when they go abroad??
Qatar Airways is the last choice for pilots in the Middle East, usually those are the guys that don’t make it to Emirates or Etihad and the only place they can go is qatar, they are not so professional unfortunately and qatar airways doesn’t help, instead they complicate things by allowing guys like this flying together.
It’s a dangerous company according to me
The safety record is spot on according to facts.
Last choice? lol How do you know this Smart or let me put it this way, Oversmart O wise one Ivan? I’m not a pilot but I’ve met many amazing and smart Qatar airways pilots who came here for the sole purpose of flying one of the safest, most advanced and youngest fleets in the world, also the package and benefits offered to them is like non other. It’s hard to deny that you were once rejected by Qatar Airways. Haha…
Not half as bad- and fun- as China Air 981 and Kennedy ground.
At what point does a controller have a responsibility to notify authorities the pilot may not be safe to fly based on his actions with ATC?
In Europe wouldn’t happened- the ATC is always helping pilots from China or elsewhere whenever they hear pilot com is incorrect or he makes mistakes!
And also com is more aviation phraseology oriented without to much plain language!
But to be prepared for the airport you are flying to is a must!
Most of the comments came from American maybe some of them are pilots never been out side the US of A ,so they think ATC at the US is the standard radio communication worldwide and the slang language and Vanity of there controllers is normal ...
Did fly with qatarairways on the B777 worldwide operation ,travelers know where we go to ..my first flight to the US was Houston kIAH well prepared with more...
Most of the comments came from American maybe some of them are pilots never been out side the US of A ,so they think ATC at the US is the standard radio communication worldwide and the slang language and Vanity of there controllers is normal ...
Did fly with qatarairways on the B777 worldwide operation ,travelers know where we go to ..my first flight to the US was Houston kIAH well prepared with more than 30 years of experience graduated from the UK ...after 16hrs flight ATC ask us for visual approach with imc condition ,on final ask to land on the other runway ..
On ground change .8 later I realised he meant 121.8 ...
English is my 3rd language, still see my English colleagues struggle with the slang instructions ..
But even you would’ve realized something was wrong and would not have read back instruction to switch to departure frequency while still taxiing around before takeoff. That pilot had a complete lack of situational awareness even you can recognize that. Qatar Airways always had the worse RT when flying around the world, could never even be bothered even to listen before transmitting, which is the first thing you learn on “day 1”! On your first...
But even you would’ve realized something was wrong and would not have read back instruction to switch to departure frequency while still taxiing around before takeoff. That pilot had a complete lack of situational awareness even you can recognize that. Qatar Airways always had the worse RT when flying around the world, could never even be bothered even to listen before transmitting, which is the first thing you learn on “day 1”! On your first flight to the US with your more than 30 yrs of experience in the situation you described after a 16 hr flt you should’ve had the confidence and knowledge to just say the magic word “unable”, that’s what we always did!
Went ahead and listened to the audio.
So what I have to say... in more than a decade of doing the job, I've seen plenty of my colleagues get flustered and give pilots a piece of their mind. It's their prerogative, and I'm not going to give them flak for it. Would I have called out this pilot for their readback errors? Personally, no. I would keep trucking along as I always do. BUT,...
Went ahead and listened to the audio.
So what I have to say... in more than a decade of doing the job, I've seen plenty of my colleagues get flustered and give pilots a piece of their mind. It's their prerogative, and I'm not going to give them flak for it. Would I have called out this pilot for their readback errors? Personally, no. I would keep trucking along as I always do. BUT, I don't know the controllers workload in the moment, I don't know how imperative correct readbacks were so the controller could move on to the next plane. Maybe the controller is getting ready to move Qatar off the movement area altogether if they're going to impede the job, and is basically giving them a last chance.
Maybe I'm just fortunate that any communication problems I've had with pilots haven't gotten in the way of me being able to safely provide services to everyone else, so I've never needed to call them out.
Also, anybody who thinks this controller was talking too fast obviously hasn't done the job.
The one critique I will make of this controller is their decision to apologize to Delta for "having to hear all that". That's just adding insult to injury.
i think amerifcan controllers need to learn from controllers from other parts of the world. They get the same job done with a lot less mumbo jumbo on the RT. Everyone is upgrading airports to keep up with traffic volume. Majority of the big US airports are just squeezing more traffic without infrastructure upgrades to keep up with the volume.
Hey, if the government wants to pay me to send me overseas to learn how other ATCs operate, I'm game. Otherwise, we're trained within the framework of our regulations.
Can't speak to "mumbo jumbo" and why you think the U.S has more of it.
Also can't speak to the infrastructure. I agree it isn't keeping up, but that doesn't fall under controller responsibility. It sounds to me like you're saying we have a tougher...
Hey, if the government wants to pay me to send me overseas to learn how other ATCs operate, I'm game. Otherwise, we're trained within the framework of our regulations.
Can't speak to "mumbo jumbo" and why you think the U.S has more of it.
Also can't speak to the infrastructure. I agree it isn't keeping up, but that doesn't fall under controller responsibility. It sounds to me like you're saying we have a tougher job than overseas ATC because our tech and infrastructure isn't keeping at the same pace.
But none of this is really relevant here... it's complete obvious this F.O was fatigued to oblivion. That's the issue... the one issue... the only issue.
The apology to American for "having to hear all that" was probably because they had departed earlier and had to level off at 10000' while waiting for a frequency change to the next controller. (SFO only clears aircraft up to 10000' as this is the top of their airspace; the departure controller at NorCal climbs them up to 19000' and then hands off to Oakland Center for further climb.)
Aircraft have to power back early...
The apology to American for "having to hear all that" was probably because they had departed earlier and had to level off at 10000' while waiting for a frequency change to the next controller. (SFO only clears aircraft up to 10000' as this is the top of their airspace; the departure controller at NorCal climbs them up to 19000' and then hands off to Oakland Center for further climb.)
Aircraft have to power back early to ease the climb rate in anticipation of level off without busting through the assigned altitude, and jet engines are very inefficient at low altitude. It then takes more energy to start the climb again--imagine slowing down for a red light in your car and having it go green just as you get below 5mph...
Having to spend so much time correcting the Qatari flight meant the controller couldn't provide timely service to the other planes in the air or on the ground.
Note that the controller uses the same cadence for all the other clearances he issues, including to other foreign carriers who all get it right. The Qatari pilot (referencing the company, not the nationality) was clearly distracted or did not have the situational awareness to realize that his readbacks made no sense. You can't hold short of 28R from Taxiway F without crossing 28L, and he sure as hell knew he didn't have a clearance for that.
@SW: I find your response fascinating. On one hand you seem to have a solid amount of knowledge about climbs and SFO SIDs, but on the other you suggest that this extended conversation with Qatar could be responsible for American having to anticipate leveling off at 10K. Let's assume a 1800FT climb rate... that's 5 minutes just to get to 9K. If the controller hasn't switched the departure over to NorCAL and/or if the pilot...
@SW: I find your response fascinating. On one hand you seem to have a solid amount of knowledge about climbs and SFO SIDs, but on the other you suggest that this extended conversation with Qatar could be responsible for American having to anticipate leveling off at 10K. Let's assume a 1800FT climb rate... that's 5 minutes just to get to 9K. If the controller hasn't switched the departure over to NorCAL and/or if the pilot hasn't figured out to switch on their own by then, that's a seperate problem. 5 minutes in the ATC world is eternity. If the controller is so focused on Qatar that he forgets about American until 10K, he shouldn't be controlling. Typically departures get shipped to NorCal within a mile of the runway.
If you'd read my other comments, you'd know that I align with "controller uses the same cadence for all the other clearances he issues, including to other foreign carriers who all get it right."
Such type of inattentive pilots put the life of passengers on Risk.
The pilot's English was accented, but it didn't sound like he was struggling with the language. He was simply being inattentive and completely lost situational awareness.
1) Ground likely gave them an instruction to monitor tower, or there is a lighted sign to monitor tower at a certain point on the taxiway. The likely 3-4 crew in that flight deck wasn't paying attention, at all.
2) Once they switched, he's using the wrong...
The pilot's English was accented, but it didn't sound like he was struggling with the language. He was simply being inattentive and completely lost situational awareness.
1) Ground likely gave them an instruction to monitor tower, or there is a lighted sign to monitor tower at a certain point on the taxiway. The likely 3-4 crew in that flight deck wasn't paying attention, at all.
2) Once they switched, he's using the wrong runway direction to refer to the runway, particularly as SFO was in their normal flow and they use the 1s and 28s and refer to the shorter runways as 1L and 1R and not 19R and 19L. Listen to what language is being used and comprehend.
3) The controller was very clear and was speaking with a perfectly acceptable cadence. This wasn't some controller at N90 spitting out vectors.
4) Who takes a call for departure when they are nowhere near the runway, let alone not airborne? Absolutely zero situational awareness.
There is zero blame here on anyone beside that flight crew.
Don't forget the jet lag. Its difficult enough to operate of US airports when you are jet lagged and anticipating a high workload and here you have a ground controller thats dishing out information faster than an in and out burger joint. I recently found out that crew are also not allowed to consume beverages in the cockpit on ground. Without that coffee fix.....i guess I am going to be pretty slow even talking to my co pilot.
No excuses. You read things wrong and you comply with what you read you can get people killed. I've been to summer unknown spots.. An easy "sir, this is my first time here, can you please give me progressive taxi" and they will gladly oblige. No ATC wants to see any incident under their control. If you're fatigued, it's your responsibility to manage it, not ATC
Seems to me the smartest thing to do would be to take them out of sequence and give them some time to sort themselves out. I know that is difficult to do at SFO, but it is doable.
KSFO is long overdue for an infrastructure upgrade. Its now a one trick pony and they are just pushing tin as fast as they can to keep up with the traffic. The rest of the world has already built newer bigger airports to replace old ones or built additional runways to keep up.
Have some empathy. I fly international. Accents are hard enough but the terminology at each country is different. Procedures are different. And fatigue is always a factor. It took me some time before I knew what to expect so I could decipher the terminology, procedures and accents. And even now, I challenge anyone to figure out what Scottish Control is saying.
Racism Involved?
How do you know the ethnicity? . Typical race card.
Nope, any native English speaker (regardless of race) flying into SFO would’ve gotten treated FAR WORSE for performance like that!
Never have felt comfortable with all these supposedly GREAT ME airlines and their SUPER GREAT Airplanes.
Maybe 9/11 is still on my mind.
In my opinion the controller is also at fault. It is arrogant, when realising the pilot has difficulties following the instructions, to keep his slang and speed in the transmissions, and not helping to solve the problem. The controllers action could could contribute to further safety issues. In my opinion, having worked at one of the busiest airports in Europe for 38 years as a controller and also having had a commercial pilot license, I...
In my opinion the controller is also at fault. It is arrogant, when realising the pilot has difficulties following the instructions, to keep his slang and speed in the transmissions, and not helping to solve the problem. The controllers action could could contribute to further safety issues. In my opinion, having worked at one of the busiest airports in Europe for 38 years as a controller and also having had a commercial pilot license, I find the behaviour and action of the controller as simply arrogant and unacceptable. It in no way contributes to safety
My experience with SFO ATC.....when you get it wrong they get pissed. When they get it wrong,,,,they just shrug it off with a 'Welcome to San Francisco'.
Countless human errors.
All you have to do is remove humans from the process.
I wonder if this is made known to the good leaders at Qatar Airways. Their insurance underwriters would also be most interested in this. There goes the premiums, to the sky. Stunning that the guy is a commercial airline pilot. Absolutely frightening, a recipe for catastrophe.
CEO Akbar Al Baker just resigned...
Wow. You guys are working hard at trying to be ugly Americans. I'd sure like to hear how sharp you'd be in Doha with a controller yelling at you in Arabic at 100 wpm. I'm sure you'd understand everything perfectly the 1st time and never make any mistakes. Ain't that right?
Is not English for aviators the *de facto* language of air traffic control worldwide?
With this bit of knowledge no pilot or first officer should be allowed to fly without a decent command of the language.
Nobody working in a business in doha would have an expectation to communicate in Englishvas a requirement. But if you're Flying into pretty much any major airport let alone in the usa English is mandatory. So your analogy falls flat.
ATC in Doha speaks English, not Arabic. English proficiency is required for flying in US airspace, as well as Qatari airspace.
Also, the controller wasn't even talking fast.
It would be in English at DOH.
NTSB did a safety recommendation after a series of incidents similar to this asking the FAA to annually remind controllers to slow down when talking to foreign crews. There are minimum required English proficiency levels, but talking like an auctioneer isn’t likely to help either you or the crew.
The Indian air traffic controllers are the auctioneers of the air. The fastest talking human beings I’ve ever heard.
This air traffic controller is talking too fast for the Qatar Airways pilot to understand.
Isn't this the normal speed that ATC speak? It sounds fast to me, as a non-pilot. But I don't think this is fast for pilots.
I would say if you can't drive in the fast lane stick to something closer to your speed. That pilot may want to focus on flying into regional airports in the states until he is proficient. Can you imagine if he flew into jfk or Chicago. They'll chew him up so bad he'll cry.
SFO is an international airport. They should be proficient to guide pilots of all nationalities into and out of SFO safely. If they can't handle the job. Like you said....the controllers should go back to handling domestic airports until they step up and be able to handle international traffic.
He wasn't speaking quickly at all. He was very clear and enunciated
Controllers fully expect ALL pilots to be able to understand and read back instructions. They're not Mommy. If a pilot can't understand English well enough to understand commands what are they doing flying into the US?
That's true....its only the American controllers that international pilots have a problem with. They don't speak English....they speak American and many a time with non standard RT as well. Its tiring just listening out to them yak to all other pilots out there in non standard RT.
Very Good point. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Say it slow. And use standard RT phraseology. Maybe the some controllers should go to London and listen to how’s it done well.
Big pilot shortage worldwide
What could possibly go wrong :(
"VASAviation YouTube channel, which does a great job covering interesting air traffic control interactions"
I mean, they just titled a recent video "Near Mid-Air Collision", and their graphic included an air bubble implying the controller said "turn left immediately" to the pilots, when no such thing was actually said, and no NMAC was actually reported (not even TCAS).
So I'd disagree with your assessment.
As I've noted in this forum before, it's extremely difficult to...
"VASAviation YouTube channel, which does a great job covering interesting air traffic control interactions"
I mean, they just titled a recent video "Near Mid-Air Collision", and their graphic included an air bubble implying the controller said "turn left immediately" to the pilots, when no such thing was actually said, and no NMAC was actually reported (not even TCAS).
So I'd disagree with your assessment.
As I've noted in this forum before, it's extremely difficult to judge a situation without being the person involved in the situation, or being a controller at that particular facility. I've seen self-proclaimed controllers get it wrong here constantly. And the public comments are even more laughable.
My favorite ones are still "planes in the air have priority over planes on the ground".
If this is a young pilot, the captain should have taken over. The level of incompetence and inability to follow directions is frightful and a risk for other flights. If QR can't deal w/ it, they need a chat w/ Mayor Pete.
US ATC controllers have a reputation for their impatience and plain rudeness with foreign airline pilots. Berating the pilot does nothing to help the situation, leaving him/her flustered to say the least. JFK, ORD, LAX, SFO....busy airports I know, but I have heard simply rude impatience from ATC there to pilots whose first language is not English; speaking more slowly wand with a calmer voice would help. Professionalism is required on both ends of the mic.
I thought the ATC was reasonable and they did speak slower. I kinda think the berating was justified - this is serious. One mistake is all it takes, particularly Left vs Right.
I prefer rude and keep us safe. Large airports are no place to hold a pilot's hand.
As someone getting ready to fly from DC to Doha on an Qatar A350-1000, I hope he hasnt drawn my route!
Just retired w/ 45 years of just about every kind of professional flying one can do w/ 40 years of airline flying. If there's one thing I might add, it is for the controllers: When you're giving an initial clearance to a foreign carrier - SLOW DOWN YOUR SPEECH. Let the foreign pilot process it in his non-native language (english) and pause-yes pause-for the pilot's read back. This saves numerous comments for clarification and frustration...
Just retired w/ 45 years of just about every kind of professional flying one can do w/ 40 years of airline flying. If there's one thing I might add, it is for the controllers: When you're giving an initial clearance to a foreign carrier - SLOW DOWN YOUR SPEECH. Let the foreign pilot process it in his non-native language (english) and pause-yes pause-for the pilot's read back. This saves numerous comments for clarification and frustration from the controller. As for the snarky Skywest pilots-I would say this is an unfortunate attitude. I would like to see how they do in the middle east, north Africa and the Mediterranean where I've flown professionally too-the tables would be severely turned.
Thank you Captain. Spoken like a true Aviator who isn't wet behind the ears.
To the smart guys: "Oh Lord but it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way."
"To the smart guys"
Nobody claiming to be perfect, but it's obvious from your hypothetical about American pilots being talked to in Arabic by controllers overseas that you lack experience in the matter. Far from the issue being me thinking I'm perfect/smart, it's that you don't have a basic grasp of ATC.
It's not a problem for tens of thousands of pilots whose native tongue is non English. Why should the industry make an exception for someone who should maybe handle a less demanding assignment. We're not talking about a Starbucks barista here. Someone could die.
I have to deal with software engineers whose English proficiency is terrible. I am fixing their errors every other day because they don't listen or read instructions carefully. No amount...
It's not a problem for tens of thousands of pilots whose native tongue is non English. Why should the industry make an exception for someone who should maybe handle a less demanding assignment. We're not talking about a Starbucks barista here. Someone could die.
I have to deal with software engineers whose English proficiency is terrible. I am fixing their errors every other day because they don't listen or read instructions carefully. No amount of slowing down can fix the problem. It's usually not just English but also competency.
"When you're giving an initial clearance to a foreign carrier - SLOW DOWN YOUR SPEECH."
Generally speaking, controllers figure out pretty quickly what cadence works for which airlines... it would be a hindrance to their working speed if they didn't. I'd be willing to bet this controller speaks the same to Qatar all the time, and rarely has issues. It's obvious listening to this audio that the issue is not the lack of understanding on...
"When you're giving an initial clearance to a foreign carrier - SLOW DOWN YOUR SPEECH."
Generally speaking, controllers figure out pretty quickly what cadence works for which airlines... it would be a hindrance to their working speed if they didn't. I'd be willing to bet this controller speaks the same to Qatar all the time, and rarely has issues. It's obvious listening to this audio that the issue is not the lack of understanding on part of the pilot, rather its complete and utter fatigue. No more obvious is it than when he takes the call to switch to departure.
Happy retirement. I have just slightly more than half your years flying as an international pilot and by god....even as a native english speaker, I find RT by US ground controllers tiring. We should get them all jet lagged and try pushing the tin for one day and see how they fair.
A good portion if US controllers are working 6 days a week, often 10 hour days, on a schedule that is referred to as "the rattler". They're faring just fine, but thanks.
The FO clearly didn’t do his homework! Studying the airport diagram, anticipating ATC clearances and tracing the taxi route, SIDs, etc, would have produced a much better outcome!
Definitely an after school detention for the FO!
Curious: What recourse would ATC have to hold/ground a flight from leaving if they felt the crew was putting passengers in danger? How would that work?
Not good. This is how you get a Tenerife. :(
Thankfully, the QR yutz didn't move the airplane and stayed off active runways.
The plane was about to depart - why would the pilot already be fatigued before a 10+ flight? You seem to think the plane just landed, but the tower is providing instructions for departure. Suggest editing.
because he is jet-lagged and completely exhausted. Even though he may be at the beginning of the duty day, he may not have slept (or gotten good sleep) the entire layover. Welcome to the world of long-haul pilot.
Yup....my personal experience all these year operating to JFK/SFO. At least at LAX our departure time is a bit kinder with the jet lag. You can try to sleep all you want...but its not going to happen.
Because he is flying extremely long haul flights with very short layovers. Constantly switching time zones has thrown his circadian rhytm out of whack. A night or two in a foreign hotel does nothing to alleviate that.
I recall reading about Emirates pilots having a big issue with fatigue. From memory they had roughly 48 hours on the ground for flights in excess of 12 hours block time. This sounds like a decent amount of rest time, but it may be quite tough for the pilots to actually get good sleep. If you were a QR pilot operating to Sydney, New York, Auckland and LAX all in one month you would probably...
I recall reading about Emirates pilots having a big issue with fatigue. From memory they had roughly 48 hours on the ground for flights in excess of 12 hours block time. This sounds like a decent amount of rest time, but it may be quite tough for the pilots to actually get good sleep. If you were a QR pilot operating to Sydney, New York, Auckland and LAX all in one month you would probably have such a messed up sleep schedule. This was reported as a key factor in Etihad almost crashing at MEL on take off on an a345 many years back. Took out several runway lights and some type of radar if I recall correctly.
That was EK407 in Melbourne, not EY. Green Dot aviation just released a great video on the whole incident. Also the tail strike was so bad that they had holes in the tail of the fuselage so they couldn’t pressurise.
https://youtu.be/uBgyNLtXQSE?si=GQKTb3tsH2qDPW3t
Thanks Anish! My bad, I obviously confused the 2 UAE carriers. Will check out the video.
Odd, after how many errors does an Aircrew have to make before someone says, "maybe this Team should not be flying?"
It is very worrying indeed. Imagine if they had United's channel 9 on Qatar. I'd be concerned listening to that mess from the cockpit. At what point do you have a plane turn around and assess the pilot for competency? Would QR be aware of this and conduct further training with that pilot? Reminds me of Singapore taking off at Taipei and crashing into construction equipment halfway down the runway (which was closed for repairs). A terrible incident killing 83 people.
What always puzzles me the most about these recordings is that for some reason US ATCs seem to think that shouting at someone is gonna solve the problem. How can an adult think it's going to work? You're just gonna stress the pilot more and make him do even more mistakes. That's what, I assume, happened with the NorCal readback.
Shouting for sure got the attention of those Delta Airline pilots at JFK when that American 777 bound for London crossed the active departure runway.
The controller is there for safety they aren't your mother it isn't their job to hold your hand and speak softly to you so they don't hurt your feelings. A split second is all it takes, a turn onto an active departure runway with an aircraft on its takeoff...
Shouting for sure got the attention of those Delta Airline pilots at JFK when that American 777 bound for London crossed the active departure runway.
The controller is there for safety they aren't your mother it isn't their job to hold your hand and speak softly to you so they don't hurt your feelings. A split second is all it takes, a turn onto an active departure runway with an aircraft on its takeoff roll, or crossing a runways with an aircraft landing can result in catastrophic loss of life. Do your homework, be familiar with the procedures at the airport that is piloting 101 they weren't even on the correct frequency that isn't the controllers fault. They were told to contact tower twice and if they would have been familiar with the taxi and departure procedure they would have known about the switchover to tower. Seeing how long it took for them to finally switch over also leads me to believe they didn't even have towers frequency loaded into their coms. None of which is the fault of the controller on tower who's trying t establish communications with this aircraft and figure out what they are doing. Don't try and blame this on the controller for yelling at the pilot when this pilot was completely unprepared for this complex taxi before the aircraft even left the gate.
It may come as a surprise to you, but problems can be dealt with without shouting. Not just that, it's actually more efficient way to achieve the desirable result. If someone's confused and you start screaming at them, the only thing you'll achieve is that they're gonna make even more mistakes, which also happened in this case.
I'm not defending pilots. What I'm saying is that ATC made the problem worse by escalating the...
It may come as a surprise to you, but problems can be dealt with without shouting. Not just that, it's actually more efficient way to achieve the desirable result. If someone's confused and you start screaming at them, the only thing you'll achieve is that they're gonna make even more mistakes, which also happened in this case.
I'm not defending pilots. What I'm saying is that ATC made the problem worse by escalating the situation, instead of calming it. And I fail to see why US controllers seem to think this is the way to go, when it never works, as proven by hundreds of recordings like this.
Well we will have to agree to disagree. ATC in my opinion remained professional rightfully so admonished the pilot for his lack of preparedness. The controllers tone of voice isn't the reason the pilot was stressed the pilot was already stressed before he even made the switch over to tower. You could hear how unprepared he was when he was ground frequency.
So maybe atc should have stopped everyone, got on board the flight, wrapped a warm blanket around the pilot, sing him a lullaby, break out Google translate and draw diagrams for him so that his feelings won't be hurt? We're not talking about teaching a kid how to ice skate. And considering pilots generally have military backgrounds, I would think they would respond better to a stern person.
Its very common in the US for ATC to shout a pilots.
Elsewhere we are tought as part of Human factors, to always think about tone of Voice, to not induce stress into a already High tension situation
I didn't hear any shouting but a frustrated, stern warning from ATC which was (in my view) fully justified.
No one was shouting. The controller needed to tell the guy what he'd done wrong, to help correct the behavior. Should he just have let him switch to departure and randomly taxi a near 350 ton airplane around?
No one up front on an A350 working that route is a junior officer.
Not necessarily - could be IOE*. that would explain a lot
*Initial Operating Experience - brand new pilot (or new to plane) with a training captain
You are very wrong. After the whole mess AKAB made with A350 and had get all the grounded 350 flying in no time the airline is full of newly First officers with 1000h only in narrow body, no wide body experience and ICAO 4. That counts for direct captains as well, min ICAO 4 from any country in the far east. It was just a matter of time.
Brian you obviously don’t know hoe ME airlines staff their jets. I routinely flew with early 20 year old “locals” with less than 2000 hrs flying ultra long hauls to the US.