The introduction of Lufthansa’s new Allegris cabin concept hasn’t been without drama, to put it mildly. Lufthansa has a bunch of Boeing 787 Dreamliners that are ready to fly, with one small problem — the airline is struggling to actually get the seats certified. Lufthansa’s management has just provided an update on this situation, and it sounds like these planes could be flying soon, though with an unfortunate reality.
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Lufthansa’s 787 business class certification issues
In 2024, we saw Lufthansa introduce its new Allegris concept, with the most exciting development being the introduction of the new Allegris business class, finally offering direct aisle access from all seats.
This product debuted on the Airbus A350-900, but that wasn’t without its challenges. First there were supply chain issues with getting the new seats. But even when the new business class, premium economy, and economy, were ready to go, the new first class wasn’t. So Lufthansa started flying these planes with the space of the first class cabin empty. Fortunately that has since been resolved, and the new first class has been in service for some time.
However, for several months, Lufthansa has been facing a much bigger issue with its Boeing 787s, which are also supposed to feature the new Allegris cabins (though without first class). Lufthansa currently has 15 Dreamliners that are in storage in the United States, and many of them already have the full cabins installed.
What’s the issue? The United States Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) hasn’t certified these new seats. You might be thinking “wait, aren’t these the same seats as on the A350?” Sort of. The A350 seats are produced by Thompson Aero, while the 787 seats are produced by Collins Aerospace (yeah… don’t ask). On top of that, individual certification is required for seats on every aircraft type.
To give a sense of just how bad things became, at an event in December 2024, a Lufthansa executive acknowledged that a “scenario in which the seats are not approved at all is not out of the question.” Yowzers. Fortunately Lufthansa management has a more positive outlook now, but the situation still isn’t great.
Lufthansa’s plan to fly 787s with Allegris cabins
Lufthansa has been dealing with a major aircraft shortage. The airline was relying on the Boeing 777X for its fleet renewal, but that plane has been delayed by at least six years. Then Lufthansa had delays with its new Airbus A350s due to the Allegris cabins. Now Lufthansa is dealing with issues on the new Boeing 787s — the general Boeing delivery delays aren’t even an issue, but just the seat certification.
What’s the latest on these 787 deliveries? Lufthansa has just shared an updated plan, which will see the Star Alliance carrier flying the Dreamliners that are in storage in the coming weeks. The first plane should arrive in Germany in September 2025, and 10 jets should arrive by the end of the year. The first route to get these planes will reportedly be between Frankfurt (FRA) and Montreal (YUL).
Here’s the kicker, though — for now, the business class seats will need to be blocked. Or at least most business class seats will need to be blocked. Since Lufthansa Allegris business class has so many seat types, maybe some types of seats don’t have those certification issues.
At this point, the goal is for the business class seats to be certified by the end of 2025. Now, whether that actually happens remains to be seen.
Obviously storing brand new planes for months on end is less than ideal. Then again, flying planes with the business class cabin blocked isn’t exactly a great option either.
Another interesting detail here is that if the new Dreamliner interiors are actually certified by the end of the year, as planned, then Lufthansa is likely to just retire its last six remaining Airbus A340-600s. That’s logical enough, though not ideal in terms of first class capacity, since those planes do have first class.
Bottom line
Lufthansa’s new Boeing 787s are delayed. Roughly 15 of these jets have been ready to go for quite some time, but the issue is that Lufthansa can’t get the new Dreamliner business class seats certified. That’s because the seats are from a different manufacturer than on the Airbus A350.
Currently, Lufthansa management expects the seats will be certified by the end of 2025. Whether or not that actually happens remains to be seen.
In the meantime, Lufthansa is reportedly preparing to start putting these planes into service, without being able to use the business class seats (or at least most of them). I’m fascinated to learn the details of that plan, since obviously that’s less than ideal. Then again, both options — grounding or flying the planes — kind of suck.
This Allegris rollout really hasn’t been very smooth, to put it mildly. First the airline had to fly A350s with the space of the first class cabin empty. Now Lufthansa has parked brand new 787s for many months due to not getting the seats certified. Never mind that SWISS is introducing the same product, and will have to install a 1.5 ton weight in the back of A330s, because first class is too heavy.
What do you make of Lufthansa’s Dreamliner drama?
Legitimate question, Ben: has anyone at LH to your knowledge ever publicly been held accountable for the epic, near-decade long disaster that is Allegris? Can you cite anyone who has been fired or replaced directly because of this?
I believe it was 2017 when LH first announced the concept and received the most undeserved “5-star” rating in history (hilariously and permanently revealing Skyrax to be a pay-to-play rating system for anyone who wasn’t already aware).
...Legitimate question, Ben: has anyone at LH to your knowledge ever publicly been held accountable for the epic, near-decade long disaster that is Allegris? Can you cite anyone who has been fired or replaced directly because of this?
I believe it was 2017 when LH first announced the concept and received the most undeserved “5-star” rating in history (hilariously and permanently revealing Skyrax to be a pay-to-play rating system for anyone who wasn’t already aware).
At literally every step, there have been severe failures of basic planning, from having to install multi-tone weights in swissair A330s (no one ever bothered to calculate weight and balance on a key aircraft type in the fleet?), to the over-complex seating and pricing map that stumps even frequent flyers, to the introduction of a first class product that appears to directly reduce potential revenue by at least 25pct on most flights, to the failure to check if the seat could even be certified on a 787.
This is planning that a schoolchild should be able to do, but was never done at LH group, on any level. Surely the shareholders will have a problem at some stage? I appreciate that European shareholders are less activist than their US counterparts but this corporation is failing in really basic ways to ensure the future of premium cabins, the principal revenue generators.
These seats earned them a 5-star rating from Skytrax many years ago. Not certified yet, lol.
PR doesn’t make everything ok, now, does it?
A movie is a great idea. It would be low budget, with amateurs and no direction, for authenticity.
Hard seating for all actors, staff frazzled and at times unhelpful, and set catering that was made on a budget decreasing weekly would help with keeping it real!
- The people who created this mess of a project are probably in different positions now.
- The people who objected to or warned about the issues on the project are probably in different companies now.
We know that it's not just in this industry that such things happen, but here at least they cannot hide it from the public view.
There's not a huge amount of movement within the airline industry in Europe, people don't really want to move to another country and struggle with foreign languages and tax systems etc for 3-4 hundred euros extra per month at best.
@Throwawayname - Huh? People move around Europe all the time. I don't know a single big company that wouldn't have mixed management in terms of nationalities. And airlines specifically are international environments by default.
There are serious barriers to building a corporate career without speaking the local language, and the money only starts getting attractive at a very high level - middle/upper middle managers are underpaid (you can be a 'Head Of' at the likes of IAG and still be on five figures - and that's before the taxperson takes their considerable cut).
In my experience, the people that move are a surprisingly small percentage, but of course...
There are serious barriers to building a corporate career without speaking the local language, and the money only starts getting attractive at a very high level - middle/upper middle managers are underpaid (you can be a 'Head Of' at the likes of IAG and still be on five figures - and that's before the taxperson takes their considerable cut).
In my experience, the people that move are a surprisingly small percentage, but of course they'll be the type of person that's more ambitious, more visible, and more prepared to risk losing money and prestige on a couple of moves before managing to secure the type of job they want (see e.g. Anko van der Werff).
I can't imagine a screw-up bigger than this. The product was already outdated when introduced, making Lufthansa less competitive, the 10-types-of-seats model is causing operational issues (see Ben's recent experience), the whole thing got delivered super late making Lufthansa even less competetive because other airlines moved forward in the meantime, and then they can't even get it certified.
Lufthansa is bleeding literal hundreds of thousands euros every day and shareholders seem to be content with...
I can't imagine a screw-up bigger than this. The product was already outdated when introduced, making Lufthansa less competitive, the 10-types-of-seats model is causing operational issues (see Ben's recent experience), the whole thing got delivered super late making Lufthansa even less competetive because other airlines moved forward in the meantime, and then they can't even get it certified.
Lufthansa is bleeding literal hundreds of thousands euros every day and shareholders seem to be content with it enough to let Carsten keep his job. Blows my mind.
"Lufthansa is bleeding literal hundreds of thousands euros every day and shareholders seem to be content with it enough to let Carsten keep his job. Blows my mind."
Because Europeans don't believe they're all pending billionaires like Americans. There is still some belief in a flag carrier being a national symbol or something. It makes the incompetence of an airline like AA all the more pronounced considering any similarly-run business in the US would suffer...
"Lufthansa is bleeding literal hundreds of thousands euros every day and shareholders seem to be content with it enough to let Carsten keep his job. Blows my mind."
Because Europeans don't believe they're all pending billionaires like Americans. There is still some belief in a flag carrier being a national symbol or something. It makes the incompetence of an airline like AA all the more pronounced considering any similarly-run business in the US would suffer adequately.
I think that only really applies to the over 50s, most younger people aren't bothered about that sort of thing. Lufthansa dominate Europe because they are a pretty reliable airline with an amazing network. I think that both shareholders and passengers appreciate the good work that goes into that, and that's why there's not much pressure for big changes or even indignation at minor shortcomings (like we saw with the BA brunchgate).
I may...
I think that only really applies to the over 50s, most younger people aren't bothered about that sort of thing. Lufthansa dominate Europe because they are a pretty reliable airline with an amazing network. I think that both shareholders and passengers appreciate the good work that goes into that, and that's why there's not much pressure for big changes or even indignation at minor shortcomings (like we saw with the BA brunchgate).
I may not like Heimat, but I sure am glad there's an airline with flights exactly where and when I need them so that I don't have to design my trips around easyJet's timetable or, worse still, those of multiple trains and buses that I'd have to use between the airport and my actual origin/destination if flying IAG (and possibly AFKL too).
@Santos, with all due respect, I think LH, because of this extended debacle, is failing miserably at being a national symbol/flag carrier as well.
The planning failures here are so basic and long-term, they do affect the brand, as well as future potential revenue in the all-important premium cabins. US shareholders have a tendency to be more activist than in Europe, true, but this is now at a level of basic corporate accountability, which should...
@Santos, with all due respect, I think LH, because of this extended debacle, is failing miserably at being a national symbol/flag carrier as well.
The planning failures here are so basic and long-term, they do affect the brand, as well as future potential revenue in the all-important premium cabins. US shareholders have a tendency to be more activist than in Europe, true, but this is now at a level of basic corporate accountability, which should be pretty universal as a value.
I agree with @Samo that, for myself in 20 years as a frequent flyer (which many other people on this blog can also say no doubt), I can’t honestly recall a bigger, more drawn-out and long-term planning screw up by any global carrier.
I don't understand why they don't just put them on high traffic Europe/North Africa routes until the seats are certified - Nobody's used to lie flats on the routes, 'Business' passengers get placed in Premium Economy (an upgrade from a blocked middle, let's be honest) and plenty of economy seats still.
Because LH doesn't need the capacity on those routes.
This is such a disaster.
I don’t understand why they could just buy a Collins SuperDiamond seat, bolt doors on it, call it KOMFORTFESCHÄFTSREISEKLASSE or something else and call it a day.
Vorsprung durch Technik
Honestly the whole team in Lufthansa should be fired immediately. This Allegris project is a disaster to begin with. Too many type of seats will result in plenty of issues down the road. Go with simple! I don't mind them selling the bulkhead row as a J+ product but now it is just too complicated. Maintenance will be an issue down the road. With so many seat types, how will LH handles mid-flight downgrade!
...Honestly the whole team in Lufthansa should be fired immediately. This Allegris project is a disaster to begin with. Too many type of seats will result in plenty of issues down the road. Go with simple! I don't mind them selling the bulkhead row as a J+ product but now it is just too complicated. Maintenance will be an issue down the road. With so many seat types, how will LH handles mid-flight downgrade!
Now flying a 787-9 with a blocked J cabin is just unprofitable. There will be plenty of "downgrade" passengers asking the F/As why those seats are "blocked". That's just an embarrassment.
if I am LH, I will consider a major Airbus A350-1000 order now. Those 777-9s will be delayed further and god knows what kind of issues it will pop up when being introduced.
LH bribed Skytrax to get 5* using this seat type, now it bites back. Karma does exist! Anyway, what do LH board members do?
Why does seat certification take so long and can an airline not pay extra to move up the list ahead of other airlines awaiting certification?
How long ago would they have submitted the certification application? Years??
Just as with Boeing, seat manufacturers either do their own certification testing or hire companies that are certified to do that testing.
It isn't a matter of getting ahead of other seat manufacturers; it is a matter of doing all of the tests the FAA requires, documenting the results, and then presenting the results to the FAA.
These premium cabin seats are complex and they are not all being produced to acceptable standards.
The Allegris...
Just as with Boeing, seat manufacturers either do their own certification testing or hire companies that are certified to do that testing.
It isn't a matter of getting ahead of other seat manufacturers; it is a matter of doing all of the tests the FAA requires, documenting the results, and then presenting the results to the FAA.
These premium cabin seats are complex and they are not all being produced to acceptable standards.
The Allegris seat on the 350 and 787 are produced by different companies - as Ben notes - which means that both seat manufacturers took the same design and came up w/ different products from a certification standard.
and the reason why one company didn't produce both seats could be because one company wasn't willing to take on all of the certification work.
LH specifically created unique products instead of modified off-the-shelf products which adds a lot of certification complexity.
I am not sure if I understood the certification process correctly... Is it really a possibility the more "standard" Allegris seats are certified and would be released for sale, whereas the "unique" ones, subject to certification delays, will be blocked for the time being?
So, it is not all or nothing case? Van somebody in the knowledge about the certification process enlighten me, please?
The 787-9 (34) will replace the A340-300 (17) and later A330-300 (9) . You can see that 787-9 seat configuration is almost identical to the existing A340-300 seat configuration. No first class and relatively small Business cabin.
Lufthansa has A350-1000 (15) on order delivery starting from next year that will replace their A340-600 (10). They are also similar in capability and the A340-600 have First class and large Business class cabins.
It’s better to have these planes flying around instead of sitting in storage for too long. That’s why N846AN was having issues
I recently tried to book a flight from Germany to Atlanta via YUL (since the LH Frankfurt flight was too early) and did not get possibility to upgrade the flight to C
I guess, this explains it ...
Sounds like I only have a few months to try out the four-holer with the downstairs lavatories.
Genuine question- How is LH Group so profitable when they are managed like this
Geography. Their hubs are very centrally located which is good for connections. Also very large captive population centers.
They've got the best network in Europe, for a lot of city pairs you can have 7-8+ options on any given day for exactly when you want to travel (anything from working in England until lunchtime and arriving in Spain well before dinner to scheduling an overnight connection between Bulgaria and France to minimise downtime)via multiple hubs. They also price all these flights competitively for connecting passengers while collecting a serious premium from hub captives...
They've got the best network in Europe, for a lot of city pairs you can have 7-8+ options on any given day for exactly when you want to travel (anything from working in England until lunchtime and arriving in Spain well before dinner to scheduling an overnight connection between Bulgaria and France to minimise downtime)via multiple hubs. They also price all these flights competitively for connecting passengers while collecting a serious premium from hub captives (even taking a train connection to/from Geneva can make ZRH flights quite a bit cheaper). None of the above applies to AF, as they have a lot of O/D traffic at CDG and want to push connections to KLM so you only get a limited amount of options.
Plus they usually manage to get there on time and bring the luggage with them, something that's definitely not the case with BA.
They operate hubs in very wealthy cities.
Because the Comission failed to do its job and let Lufthansa build its monopoly in the central European market. For many routes there simply isn't any other option than flying Lufthansa. With the coming acquisition of ITA it's only gonna get worse.
I don't think that any other airlines have been serious about pursuing a multi-hub strategy in Europe.
CSA was given away to Smartwings despite its rather deep integration into Skyteam, while AF can't even work with Air Europa to sort out codeshares between Spain and France (UX have no MAD-CDG flights, but they do fly to Orly). Hopefully things will get better now they're working with SAS.
IAG are even worse as they have...
I don't think that any other airlines have been serious about pursuing a multi-hub strategy in Europe.
CSA was given away to Smartwings despite its rather deep integration into Skyteam, while AF can't even work with Air Europa to sort out codeshares between Spain and France (UX have no MAD-CDG flights, but they do fly to Orly). Hopefully things will get better now they're working with SAS.
IAG are even worse as they have not sought to work with any unaligned airlines in Central/Eastern Europe in the 13 years following Malev's demise (Air Serbia are so open minded that they sell through tickets with National Express coach segments connecting to their LHR flights, while AFKL sell interline fares with domestic connections in Greece with Skyexpress and even Aegean). They have also been busy cutting most BA routes going further South/East of IST, and are so weak in the UK beyond the immediate LHR catchment area that they can't even get IB or their alliance partner AY to fly an Embraer or something to BHX.
The Commission is slow and bureaucratic but it's neither stupid nor fundamentally corrupt. SN and OS may not be the world's most amazing airlines but their operations bring a lot more value to their respective countries than the awkward Aer Lingus model does to Ireland (or anyone else), and their continued existence certainly is more beneficial for consumers than the prospect of eliminating Air Europa and leaving the ridiculous Plus Ultra as Spain's only long haul alternative to IB.
News in the passive voice. Seats need to be certified. Not, someone certifies these seats. Who is in charge here? One comment mentions the FAA, part of the federal government led by a President and until recently advised by an efficiency advocate trying to cut through government regulation. If these were seats on a gift 747 from Qatar, how long would they take to be approved? And if the planes are going to be used...
News in the passive voice. Seats need to be certified. Not, someone certifies these seats. Who is in charge here? One comment mentions the FAA, part of the federal government led by a President and until recently advised by an efficiency advocate trying to cut through government regulation. If these were seats on a gift 747 from Qatar, how long would they take to be approved? And if the planes are going to be used on a route from Germany to Canada, what does the FAA have to do with it anyway?
Has there even been a worse seat/airline product debut and installation than Allegris?
@ Aaron -- No.
LH is so much more entertaining than Global airlines. You couldn’t make this stuff up.
Spohr should be fired.
Sadly, Spohr will in all probability get a raise and an extended contract. That's how LH rolls. Lufty is the QANTAS of Europe - mediocrity writ large.
"Lufty is the QANTAS of Europe - mediocrity writ large."
That is a devastating statement, and the QANTAS reference is a perfect analogy. Well stated, John, well stated indeed.
Putting the planes on the FRA-YUL-FRA route does not surprise me. It's a seasonal service, only operates till the end of October with most of demand being in Premium Economy and Economy...so I guess if you need to take a bitter pill, this might be the best one to swallow....
Can some please explain why these seats might not be certified yet?
Bad electrics?
(More) dangerous to a pax during an accident?
Wrong materials used?
Low screen resolution?
What does the FAA care about the resolution quality on screens in the cabin.
What's holding up the certification is the HIC related to Head Injury during an accident or rapid deceleration. Because of general design, each type of seat have to be certified individually with probably the throne seats and the seats set at an angle requiring additional certification.
Whoosh :)
Thanks ZEPHYR, appreciate the clarification
So they'll replace A340's and suddenly have routes where no premium cabins are offered? The math on that decision is...interesting
listen it takes time to certify a skytrax 5 star award-winning business class seat okay!!!!
“It takes time to certify” = “it takes time for the check to clear”
The gift that just keeps on giving is Lufthansa.
Except Lufthansa has not given its customers anything, other than a slap in the face.
Do they expect people to be paying thousands of dollars to crawl over their neighbors in business class?
They make United look like a world class airline with their TATL JV.
Some of their pricing for connecting itineraries is really attractive though. ARN-NBO and back in business class has been selling for as little as €1250.
The AF product is better, but it's about double the price and the middle pair on LH is still fully flat seating with individual aisle access. As €1k+ isn't a trivial amount of money to me, I'd happily take the saving in exchange for missing out on a window seat.
The A340s don’t have Business Class either
Did the people in charge of the new Berlin airport get jobs at Lufthansa?
lol gold star comment right here
There's now more than enough material for a new Netflix series called "The Seat."
Directed by C Spohr
It will be 5 years later and available in 17 different formats, each individually edited.
This terrible terrible airline still has 2-2-2 on the vast majority of its planes in 2025. And 2025 is more than halfway over.
Collins Aerospace is owned by RTX Corporation which also is the owner of Pratt and Whitney which produced the Geared Turbofan.
Hard to know who is more to blame but the lack of quality control in production and design in the global aerospace industry is problematic.
Ironically, some airlines have better profit margins now than Airbus or Boeing but component suppliers are the most profitable.
They actually function very differently than you think.
RTX is the parent company, P&W management and work is very different from Collins aerospace (one can almost argue that Collins aerospace is still almost a standalone company on its own)
Pre COVID, the most troubled seat manufacturer was french Safran
I know they are still very different in their operations; that was true w/ UTC Corp as well.
but you can't miss that RTX has its hands in multiple parts even of commercial aerospace that aren't working well.
and, as noted above, the chances are high that these seats are not meeting crash tests.
Awww..... what a cute couple.
No comment.
An Allegris business class suite walks into a bar . . . and the bartender asks, "Wait, is this the start of a joke?"
Lufthansa why can't you just be normal
@ betterbub -- Since Al Baker left the industry, we need our entertainment somewhere (other than Global Airlines)...
I miss global so badly (lol)