Christopher Elliott has the story of how a couple traveling from Florida to Tanzania were downgraded from business class to economy while on some very expensive business class tickets (thanks to Dennis for flagging this). Perhaps the most interesting aspect of this story is who these people were…
In this post:
Couple downgraded from KLM business class on long haul flight
Fran and John Edwardson recently took a trip to go on safari in Tanzania, which was described as “the trip of a lifetime.” The couple decided to book business class flights from Miami to Tanzania, and the roundtrip tickets cost a total of $21,322 for the couple (so around $10,661 per person).
The couple checked in online the night before and got their boarding passes for business class, as expected. However, the next morning they received an email from KLM, informing them that they had been downgraded due to an aircraft swap, and would be in economy on the Miami to Amsterdam flight. As the wife explained:
“Business class on the outbound flights was the most important aspect of our itinerary, so we could have lie-flat beds, get some sleep, and begin our vacation refreshed.”
They had no luck getting a resolution at the airport. After all, there’s only so much that airport agents can do, especially when there just aren’t enough business class seats (I am curious if the company’s correct downgrade procedures were followed, or if they were simply downgraded because “their” business class seat assignments no longer existed). The couple ended up flying the first segment in economy, in seats 35A and 35B.
When the couple returned from their trip, they filed a complaint with the airline regarding the downgrade. KLM offered the couple two travel vouchers worth $924. They protested, citing European consumer protection laws, but KLM wouldn’t do anything. They were told that if they wanted cash compensation, they’d have to reach out to their travel agent.
This is inaccurate and inadequate. Under European regulations, you’re due a 75% refund of your ticket when downgraded, calculated for the portion of the trip where your class of service was changed. And even under US regulations, you’re due the fare difference (in cash) between the cabin you booked and the cabin you flew.
After the consumer advocates stepped in, the Edwardsons got a fair resolution:
“I wanted you to know that we’re receiving a refund of $4,051 from KLM. While it’s less than what we’d hoped for, it’s in line with the EU regs requiring a 75 percent refund if we look at this segment as one-quarter of our itinerary. We are extraordinarily grateful for your help. You perform an important consumer service.”
So while I wouldn’t by any stretch of the imagination call that a generous outcome, that does seem like it at least complies with the law.
These were two former United Airlines executives
Here’s what I’d consider to be the most interesting part of this story. The couple involved here wasn’t just your average retired couple. In fact, they had both held senior positions in the airline industry.
In the late 1990s, John Edwardson was United Airlines’ President and Chief Operating Officer. Meanwhile Fran Edwardson served as United Airlines’ Senior Vice President and General Counsel.
Consumers will often say that they wish that airline executives would experience economy on long haul flights, to see what the average consumers deals with. I guess in this case that wish came true, except on a different airline, and for people who have been retired from the industry for decades.
Bottom line
Two former United Airlines executives were traveling to Tanzania for a safari, and booked $10K+ business class tickets on KLM. They ended up being downgraded on the first segment due to an aircraft swap, which is understandably frustrating.
What’s disappointing is that when they reached out to the airline, they were offered travel vouchers for an inadequate amount, rather than a larger cash refund in line with what regulations dictate. Fortunately in the end they were able to get a refund equivalent to 75% of the fare for that first segment of the itinerary.
What do you make of this incident?
Karma?
Damn right, United defaulted on my pension.
Sorry but this does not add up. I have to believe that a former president of UA would have lifetime free flight privileges on United, and not standby like the rank and file but confirmed premium class travel.
It is so unfortunate these Pax were downgraded for their Longest Part of the Journey instead of 75% refund they should have compensated more plus the hardship they gone through !!!
The Airline should be ashamed of themselves & the persons who are responsible for this act should be suspended from the service !!!
KLM should have gone above and beyond for anyone in this situation. There should be zero reason that KLM wouldn't have returned the difference immediately upon them making the change to a lower priced seat. How dare they think the consumer would ever be fine paying for a service they did not receive. This sounds like something Lufthansa might do, I'm surprised the Dutch would be so German with their customer service
Lol, same thing happened to me from DXB -> AMS to go see ADE in 2023. These pigs KLM decided to bait switch me from their 787 to their stinky nasty Triple 777. Utter disgusting Dutch pigs. I got downgraded to economy as well.
Oh poor baby cannot fly economy. Sad :(
Some of the numbers appear to be wrong. How could they possibly pay $20k+ for two business class tickets? If you check Google flights the price is about half that. So if they paid about $10k for the pair of round trip tickets but were downgraded on the Miami > Amsterdam leg, about half the distance, in one direction, one might expect a refund of 25% of the amount paid, less cost of an economy...
Some of the numbers appear to be wrong. How could they possibly pay $20k+ for two business class tickets? If you check Google flights the price is about half that. So if they paid about $10k for the pair of round trip tickets but were downgraded on the Miami > Amsterdam leg, about half the distance, in one direction, one might expect a refund of 25% of the amount paid, less cost of an economy ticket .... i.e. something in the $2k to $3k range. As they got over $4k, it does not seem wildly out of line. Yes, it is v distressing, and yes it spoilt the holiday and yes I guess they are old (like me) and find business class to be much easier on old bones and yes it would be reasonable for the airline to give some some compensation for all that - how about a pair of business class seats Miami>Amsterdam?
But, when all is said and done, the story sounds like an exaggeration of their suffering, esp cash wise.
If they traveled during a holiday or other peak period the tickets could easily be 10K each. I have numerous times paid 8-10K for RT business class tickets to closer destinations (well, my company paid, not me - too rich for my blood :)
People who work for airlines know there's no such thing as "a trip of a lifetime." They know this because they know disruptions happen and they know they can fly for free, so the trip can always be made again. So considering John also worked at Northwest Airlines, it's weird that he would describe his trip in that way. But it's also good to know that the airlines aren't discriminating by protecting big wigs from...
People who work for airlines know there's no such thing as "a trip of a lifetime." They know this because they know disruptions happen and they know they can fly for free, so the trip can always be made again. So considering John also worked at Northwest Airlines, it's weird that he would describe his trip in that way. But it's also good to know that the airlines aren't discriminating by protecting big wigs from the downgrades and disruptions the rest of us must endure.
I had a recent nasty experience with KLM, there Customer Service people very rude, unhelpful and dismissive to customers complaints, I have resolved NEVER to fly with KLM again, they've lost a customer of over 30 years.
Definitely avoiding KLM going forward. Thanks for the article!
You realize this is standard practice industry wide right? You'll have similar odds with other airlines.
I flew KLM in business many years ago and was not impressed. This incident will make it extremely unlikely for me to travel on this airline.
Should they not be downgraded to premium economy? Double downgrade is really nasty
So, first there's the fact that KLM looks bad for trying to flout EU rules to begin with.
Second - I'm curious as to whether they sought out re-routing? MCO isn't /that/ far away, and DL seems to have 4x/day ATL-AMS and 4x/day JFK-AMS, so requesting re-routed accommodation would have been reasonable (and using DL to patch the connection would've been plausible as DL owns a large chunk of KLM). The way the story reads,...
So, first there's the fact that KLM looks bad for trying to flout EU rules to begin with.
Second - I'm curious as to whether they sought out re-routing? MCO isn't /that/ far away, and DL seems to have 4x/day ATL-AMS and 4x/day JFK-AMS, so requesting re-routed accommodation would have been reasonable (and using DL to patch the connection would've been plausible as DL owns a large chunk of KLM). The way the story reads, they realized there was an issue and just...didn't do anything proactive, hoping it would sort out at the airport.
Yes that is who is downgraded: those whose seat numbers do not exist any longer. WHEN there is an aircraft substitution the seat assignments are transferred to the new seat map and those left out are manually (by an agent working queued pnrs) reassigned. THEy do the best that can be the alternative is no aeroplane substitute and so cancelation.
Downgrades are becoming more common
Don't fly KLM - EVER!
I find it very telling that 2 former high positioned employees of ual would prefer to be flying with klm in their retirement. Of course many of us who have worked for someone has seen enough to never partake in their services.
It's because KLM has the best schedule from South Florida, where they live, to Kilimanjaro, Tanzania. Where they worked 20 + years ago means nothing.
They still have flying benefits
Not on an airline that goes to Tanzania.
Now they know what it feels like to be seen as just a number by an airline. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving couple. I remember when united cancelled my flight and I had to sleep on cots at O'Hare airport and got a $10 voucher for my delay.
Do you know anything at all about these actual people or are you just indulging your insecurities in tired stereotypes?
What do you mean 'couldn't happen to a more deserving couple', how do you know that these people had any impact whatever compensation you were dealt, they were employed 20 years ago.
The 924 usd must have been paid as a compensation for downgrade. The refund or partial refund for difference in fare certainly would have come through via the travel agent through whom they purchased the tickets .
I would be very angry if I was downgraded and not given a full refund. We save hard for holidays and choose to go Business for a variety of reasons so I understand why they weren’t happy.
They should have been compensated with double the amount they paid for the ticket! That's the way to promote the brand, create good relations with future customers! And have some one to personally apologise to the customer when they arrive at their destination.
yes, but...
these added costs YOU would have to bare on each ticket you buy, whilst a mishap only happens every 1 in 100 ?
I've been treated fine by KLM, an most of not all other airlines Ive used
Good. Maybe he will decide to make their airline treat people better. Airlines should not be allowed to pack people on planes like cattle and provide the low level of comfort and service that they have become accustomed to. Maybe his trip in cattle class will open his eyes to the way the majority of us are treated. I can only hope they stuck him in a middle seat on a packed 777.
He hasnt worked at United in over 20 years, so he has no say over how anything is run there now. I"m good friends with his daughter, and she tells me that when she and her family traveled when he worked for UA, and when he traveled for work, he/ they flew coach domestically.
Here, he was a paid customer who was downgraded. I think anybody would be upset if they paid for a first class/ biz class seat and then were downgraded.
So, did they only fly in United First or United Business internationally over twenty years ago?
They flew coach domestically but given who they were they probably had priority access such as priority check in and boarding and complimentary lounge access for the whole family??
Back then there was no priority boarding in economy. It was for the most part boarding from the back forward, 5 rows at a time. After they let first and biz board first. No clue where they checked in or if they used a lounge. But in the plane they were in coach. Pre 9/11 (he left US prior to 9/11) things weren't as crazy at the airport. So the whole thing around needing a lounge or priority boarding wasn't a thing .
Is KL flying out of MIA again?
Was not aware.
They come and go in MIA.
winter seasonal flying.
How many bankruptcies has United had since these two were executives? Today's United is not the same airline they worked for.
One bankruptcy
KLM is one of the worst airlines, they charge more and provides less comfort, economy seat are very uncomfortable, food is worst, they change the seat at the last moment as per their wish inspite of charging for seat. I will never ever fly KLM.
KLM was nice 30 years ago, with spacious economy seating on 747s crossing the Atlantic. They are always impossibly rigid, though, more so even than Lufthansa.
They never considered a much better product with Turkish, BA and we for a lower price? Baffling. No Amex Plat fare? Heck Amex would take care of them in such an event. And what about their agent who booked this ticket at 10k pp for KLM?! Hard pass on the airline and that agent.
I meant QR and not “we”
I stand by your comments 100% you are absolutely correct.
Only they could answer those questions. But, from South Florida, KLM offers the quickest and most time efficient schedule to Tanzania. Turkish flies a 737 800 no lie flat to Kilimanjaro. KLM flies a 787-10 with lie flat seats with a shorter elapsed travel time. Qatar goes there but again it's a longer travel time. I know these people personally (parent of my college friend) And these people go for the fastest lie flats to...
Only they could answer those questions. But, from South Florida, KLM offers the quickest and most time efficient schedule to Tanzania. Turkish flies a 737 800 no lie flat to Kilimanjaro. KLM flies a 787-10 with lie flat seats with a shorter elapsed travel time. Qatar goes there but again it's a longer travel time. I know these people personally (parent of my college friend) And these people go for the fastest lie flats to get where they are going. They simply arent interested in going out of their way for a potentially better product. Cant answer the Amex plat question, that's something you'd have to ask them.
Also, BA doesnt go to Kilimanjaro or Dar Es Salaam (I dont think), and Turkish doesnt use a lie flat product from Istanbul to Tanzania. They use a 737
Agree that downgrades should be a 100% refund of that segment (based on fraction of total distance, not whatever arcane internal math airline fare algorithms use).
And every 30 days the consumer doesn't get it carries 20% interest.
Enough f**kery from these airlines already.
KLM does not look good in this situation. They flagrantly violated European law in compensation for downgraded flights. Shame on them!
I agree with frrp. Downgrades should by law (globally) guarantee 100% refund. Stop these airlines bumping people into cheap seats when their plane issues screw up our plans.
How is this not stealing? If I am paying for a service and that service isn't being provided, then a full refund is due. If I pay $10k for a ticket and you stick me in a seat where the cost would be $2k then you owe me an $8k refund without me even having to ask for it - service paid for was not provided.
They still got there safely. Partial service was rendered and no one forced them to ride in coach. They accepted the ticket. They should be charged the coach fare if they chose to accept the seat.
Please read the person's comment that you reacted to again. They asked for a full refund of the difference between the seat they paid for and the seat they rode in... Just like you mentioned, you corrected nothing
I don't see what their past job history has to do with anything. Neither of them are employed by the airline so they are just regular Joe's flying like everybody else. The only thing in question should be the compensation which seems to have been resolved.
How very stupid of KLM. The adverse publicity gained from this stinginess is incalcuble... and there have been other very negative cases where KLM handed over a few Euros, kicking and screaming...
Very stupid indeed...
Ben, surprised to see you so far off base here with citing EC261, when all the recent rulings have said it doesn't apply in the case of a routing like this. Not to say the principle shouldn't stand and that the outcome was inappropriate, but EC261 compensation specifically does not appear to have been due at least based on the facts are you presented them.
What about this incident precludes it from EC261 regs? It was an EU airline (KLM) and a flight to the EU (MIA-AMS).
Plenty of discussion FT an elsewhere, but here's a snippet:
On 24 February 2022, the Court of Justice handed down its judgment in Case C-451/20, Airhelp Ltd v Austrian Airlines AG, on the interpretation of Article 3(1), Article 5(1)(c)(iii) and Article 7(1) of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004. The request has been made in proceedings between Airhelp Ltd (“Airhelp”) and Austrian Airlines AG (“Austrian Airlines”) regarding the latter’s refusal to offer compensation to NT, an air...
Plenty of discussion FT an elsewhere, but here's a snippet:
On 24 February 2022, the Court of Justice handed down its judgment in Case C-451/20, Airhelp Ltd v Austrian Airlines AG, on the interpretation of Article 3(1), Article 5(1)(c)(iii) and Article 7(1) of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004. The request has been made in proceedings between Airhelp Ltd (“Airhelp”) and Austrian Airlines AG (“Austrian Airlines”) regarding the latter’s refusal to offer compensation to NT, an air passenger whose rights were taken over by Airhelp, due to the cancellation of his flight.
...[continues]
According to the Court, a flight with one or more connections which is the subject of a single reservation constitutes a whole for the purposes of the right of passengers to compensation provided for in Regulation No 261/2004, and as such its applicability is to be assessed with regard to the place of a flight’s initial departure and the place of its final destination. Therefore, Article 3(1) of Regulation no. 261/2004 cannot be interpreted as meaning that a passenger on a connecting flight, whose initial place of departure and final destination are located in third countries, may avail himself of the provisions of that regulation only because one or more stops of that flight’s segments are located in the territory of the Union.
Most Miami-Europe flights leave later in the evening. If the couple was proactive in attempting to be re-accommodated, then it really seems like the airline failed them, as it's hard to believe that two available business seats couldn't be round via Atlanta, JFK, Boston, or even Detroit. Then again, if they just waited all day until going to the airport, then there's no surprised that there were no options available, which based on what's written...
Most Miami-Europe flights leave later in the evening. If the couple was proactive in attempting to be re-accommodated, then it really seems like the airline failed them, as it's hard to believe that two available business seats couldn't be round via Atlanta, JFK, Boston, or even Detroit. Then again, if they just waited all day until going to the airport, then there's no surprised that there were no options available, which based on what's written here, seems to be the case.
Regardless, I truly find it shocking that people paying $10,000 each weren't accommodated before likely anyone else. Which leads to my next question, were they doing the "we must sit together!" thing? Because surely that would've made the situation even worse, especially when there's not enough seats to begin with.
Maybe they were the last ones that checked out or arrived late to the airport to leave luggage... Old stars behave that way...
You clearly didnt read this. They checked in and received boarding passes online the day before the trip. The day of the trip in the morning they received an email from KLM telling them they had been downgraded.
This happened to friends of mine on a klm flight to South Africa. Klm also changed the day of the flight, taking away their cushion to get to their safari trip. Months to get a similar refund required by eu law.
I'm not surprised by this.
United offered a "trip of a lifetime" flight leaving at 7 a.m. from Guam Jan 1, 2024 arriving in Honolulu 6:15p.m. Dec 31, 2023. Two New Year's Eve's in one day.
They delayed the flight due to crew timing out and only compensated us. $200 on a $10,000 flight.
I guess they should not be so surprised then. Their former company does this to its own customers. They should know that other airlines may do the same as well.
How is that not a generous outcome (if refund $4000 p person)? If MIA - DAR at half rountrip is $5000 , getting $4000+ back for the outbound origin - destination when only first sector was downgraded seems reasonable . If it’s $2000 per person refund as pro rata first sector based on fare types , less pleasant but also not unreasonable.
@ Matt — $4K was the total refund for both, so around $2K per person.
I book airline tickets on credit cards I trust. They broach "terms of service" I immediately file fraud charge and suspend payment. If nothing else, I can tie up their getting paid ANYTHING for months
And all you get is a lifetime ban on that airline.
@Eskimo
NOT true at all. I was flying BA in paid Business Class from JFK-CPT via LHR two years ago and when I went to scan my boarding pass to board BA59 LHR-CPT the gate turned red. A Supervisor asked me to please step aside to the podium while they looked at my ticket. He then told me my seat was broken (this was on a 772 with the new ClubSuite) - all electric...
@Eskimo
NOT true at all. I was flying BA in paid Business Class from JFK-CPT via LHR two years ago and when I went to scan my boarding pass to board BA59 LHR-CPT the gate turned red. A Supervisor asked me to please step aside to the podium while they looked at my ticket. He then told me my seat was broken (this was on a 772 with the new ClubSuite) - all electric was inoperable in the seat and TV entertainment. I pushed to be rebook on another flight or partner. The flight was already overbooked as was the next days BA59 and he said he couldn’t get me to CPT for another 3-days.
So I got to fly 11-hours sitting straight up with no ability to recline even an inch or two, no functioning power outlets to charge my devices, and a flat-bed that wouldn’t recline let alone go flat, and no TV or entertainment. The Supervisor told me that the onboard Flight Manager in CW would be able to manually put my seat down and to file for compensation on BA’s website after completing my trip. The Flight Manager along with 2-other male flight attendants tried for 30-mins to put the seat into a bed and no dice.
When I sent in the complaint to BA after the trip I requested the 75% refund for the LHR-CPT leg and BA wouldn’t budge. Instead - they offered me a $50 voucher towards a future purchase. Ha!
I wasn’t going to play their game so I went right to Amex, filed a chargeback for the 75% and included the EU & UK regulation language in my claim against BA and won. BA *never* banned me and I’ve flown them several times since.
Stop making things up and posting disinformation!
Lucky I recall you typically like to choose the last row in J. Not hard and fast rule but you usually do.
Might want to change your strategy as these down gauges would potentially bump you down.
Another reason not to choose the last few rows in J
OMG. Is one allowed to refuse the downgrade? I mean, one may have medical reasons to travel flat-bed, not crammed economy seat...
There are medical reasons to fly with a donkey or a flamingo. You don't see people refuse to get offloaded.
You can refuse the downgrade and accept passage on another flight.
To me this story is about interoffice romance.
I find Delta flights managed by KLM in AMS to be problematic. It's the worst of both worlds.
I have not found this to be the case. I once flew from Rome to SEA via AMS, in business class. The flight from Rome was on KLM; the flight from AMS-SEA was on DL. Our flight to AMS was delayed by 2 hours, due to fog at AMS, so clearly weather -related. We were advised that our SEA connection was blown before we even took off from Rome.
The KLM staff at the...
I have not found this to be the case. I once flew from Rome to SEA via AMS, in business class. The flight from Rome was on KLM; the flight from AMS-SEA was on DL. Our flight to AMS was delayed by 2 hours, due to fog at AMS, so clearly weather -related. We were advised that our SEA connection was blown before we even took off from Rome.
The KLM staff at the rebooking desk in AMS were extremely helpful, trying to get us J class on other flights but couldn't because people had already upgraded to available seats. So, they flew us to LHR and put us in J on BA to SEA, without my having to ask. I had no complaints about them at all.
This happened to me flung air canada. My flight was consolidated and I was downgraded from business to economy. There offered me a $190 voucher on a 1.4k flight. Still contesting it.
The laws need to be changed to protect ppl from downgrades. Downgrade should equal full refund, because even after refund it means that the airline has sold a business class seat and dumped them in an economy seat and still charged them $5000+?
They weren't still charged $5,000+ for the economy flight.
Total price for two people was $21,322 and they got a total refund of $4,051.
Now you have to consider that the downgrade was only on the MIA-AMS segment, while they still got business class on the rest of the itinerary (AMS-DAR, DAR-AMS, AMS-MIA). Since all segments are of similar length, the downgrade affected only 25% of the itinerary.
A quarter of the total...
They weren't still charged $5,000+ for the economy flight.
Total price for two people was $21,322 and they got a total refund of $4,051.
Now you have to consider that the downgrade was only on the MIA-AMS segment, while they still got business class on the rest of the itinerary (AMS-DAR, DAR-AMS, AMS-MIA). Since all segments are of similar length, the downgrade affected only 25% of the itinerary.
A quarter of the total price would be $5,330, so that's what those downgraded business class segments did cost. 75% EU compensation of those are just below $4,000, which is pretty much what they got.
Paying $1,330 for the MIA-AMS sector for 2x economy ($665 per person) sounds a bit steep to me but much better than $5,000.
At the same time, I also think that airlines should be incentivized to avoid downgrades (currently the airline still gets a pretty good price for the economy seat) and a full compensation of the affected sector would be more appropriate.
On the other hand, even for a full refund I wouldn't want to fly long haul economy. It's a pity the law doesn't offer the option of rebooking onto another flight/airline at no extra cost.
If that would be an option, you could even eliminate downgrades due to re-selling tickets at a much higher price. A last minute business class ticket at another airline would for sure cost more than an airline would earn from the higher re-selling price.
Wouldn't have helped in this case though, as it wasn't due to overselling but rather due to aircraft swap.
FWIW, I was an intern at UA when Edwardson was President & COO. He was a really good down to earth guy. Even had us over to his house one evening for casual drinks and snacks and Q&A. He was also well-known for flying only economy on domestic routes. The story was that one time he was confronted by a customer on board, who, walking past him in F class, said "I would have gotten...
FWIW, I was an intern at UA when Edwardson was President & COO. He was a really good down to earth guy. Even had us over to his house one evening for casual drinks and snacks and Q&A. He was also well-known for flying only economy on domestic routes. The story was that one time he was confronted by a customer on board, who, walking past him in F class, said "I would have gotten upgraded if not for you." After that, Edwardson flew only economy on domestic flights so he could experience UA as the vast majority of his customers did. Internationally he still flew F of J. He was forced out some time later by the unions. There was a group of non-union workers considering unionizing. UA printed pamphlets for this group explaining the pros and cons of being in a union. UA was trying to present a rational and objective perspective. Well the unions didn't like that, saying that United should only have shown the pros of being in a union on the pamphlet. Edwardson ended up leaving to join a telecom company.
To clarify, after Mr. Edwardson was pushed out from UAL by the unions - he became CEO of Burns International for about a year and then became Chairman/CEO of CDW. His stint at Ameritech (the midwest Regional Bell Operating Company) was prior to becoming COO/President of UAL.
Fun fact: Mr. Edwardson was recruited by then Chairman and CEO of NWA, Stephen Rothmeier - they were college buddies from their M.B.A. days at the University of...
To clarify, after Mr. Edwardson was pushed out from UAL by the unions - he became CEO of Burns International for about a year and then became Chairman/CEO of CDW. His stint at Ameritech (the midwest Regional Bell Operating Company) was prior to becoming COO/President of UAL.
Fun fact: Mr. Edwardson was recruited by then Chairman and CEO of NWA, Stephen Rothmeier - they were college buddies from their M.B.A. days at the University of Chicago.
It was during Mr. Edwardson's time at NWA that NWA acquired Republic Airlines....well that fun ride ended abruptly when NWA was taken over - hostily by Al Checchi and Gary Wilson who went on to saddle a debt-free NWA with billions of dollars of debt!
After that, NWA was ruined as what was a great financially-sound airline.
R.I.P. - Don Nyrop and Stephen Rothmeier
I really longed for John to become CEO of another major airline - I believe he was content in his role at CDW and his family life on the north shore of Chicago.
Should he and his wife have been been downgraded? --- No!
SO_CAL_RETAIL_SLUT
NWA became financially ruined. That says a lot. Their customer service agents cussing on the phone and their flight attendants being so rude.
It is good that Delta bought them out. Any nice flight attendants on Delta are probably from Delta and those impolite flight attendants are probably from when they were with NWA.
Make Pete Buttigieg the next US President. Problem will be solved in no time.
I hope you're joking? I was really hoping this guy would pull something good but since he's been in his position there have been multiple catastrophes and he's done nothing to improve the systems.
How are the catastrophes Buttigieg’s fault? Blame Trump he was announcing infrastructure bill next week. Joe Biden is getting it done.
Congress allocated $7.5 Billion 2 1/2 years ago for EV charging stations. A grand total of 8 have been built...yeah he is getting it done alright...
This is not about what their past job was. Someone paid whopping $10,000+ per person and got a horrible treatment by an airline that doesn't seem to care about the customers.
If I were to save for a special vacation and get mistreated, I would be very upset too. It is surprising airline like KLM is so indifferent to high paying customers. I will keep this incident in mind if I have a choice...
This is not about what their past job was. Someone paid whopping $10,000+ per person and got a horrible treatment by an airline that doesn't seem to care about the customers.
If I were to save for a special vacation and get mistreated, I would be very upset too. It is surprising airline like KLM is so indifferent to high paying customers. I will keep this incident in mind if I have a choice to make of an airline.
Also, frankly, this looks like a robbery by airline. If you didn't give them service or product they paid for, they deserve proper refund and heartfelt apology.
I feel bad for them. For those who hate them because they were airline executives, get real. They earned their job and the title.
It is surprising how many haters are there just because they cannot stand someone making more money than them. If you don't like people making money they deserve, just look at the communist and socialist experiments around the world in the last 100 years. Would you rather fly Soviet or Russian or Cuban or Venezuelan airline?
I'd be interested to see how KLM decided that 294 USD was the right compensation for this. They sent me a 300 EUR voucher for a cancelled flight that was booked in K within days, so it seems to be hit or miss with them :D
For 10k+ i'd also expect my travel agent to handle this.
As a former United (thus Star Alliance) executive why were they flying KLM instead of United/Lufthansa, where for sure they would have had some juice to fix the problem. Not much loyalty for their own brand. :)
They worked there 20 years ago. Lufthansa doesnt fly to Tanzania, and KLM has the most direct route from South Florida. Why should they have loyalty all these years later if they dont work there? Doesnt make sense.
Lufthansa doesn't, but Discover and Edelweiss do
True, but not every day and connections aren't good. If I punch in MIA - JRO in business class on star alliance, the best timings it will give me on the dates I chose were with a 2:15 layover in Munich followed by a 9:35 layover in Zurich, and returns had 4:55 layover in Addis Ababa and 4:25 in Frankfurt. None of the legs were on United.
KLM, by comparison, could run MIA-JRO in almost...
True, but not every day and connections aren't good. If I punch in MIA - JRO in business class on star alliance, the best timings it will give me on the dates I chose were with a 2:15 layover in Munich followed by a 9:35 layover in Zurich, and returns had 4:55 layover in Addis Ababa and 4:25 in Frankfurt. None of the legs were on United.
KLM, by comparison, could run MIA-JRO in almost 10 hours less time with a single connection in Amsterdam, and on the return, just a brief stop in Dar Es Salaam without a connection, then a connection in Amsterdam.
I've flown into Tanzania, and one thing you never want to do is overcomplicate it. One missed connection and you can be delayed by many days. And with Edelweiss/Discover operating infrequently and Addis Ababa connections being a bit iffy, its generally a no brainer to stick with KLM. Turkish or Qatar might be ok, but they do generally take much longer or arrive in the middle of the night. The African market has carriers that specialize to certain regions out of Europe, such as KLM, Air France, and Brussels.
Funding is allocated to states. And in order to ensure taxpayer money is used responsibly, they have to go through a lengthy procurement process. The bill started the process. New things are always slow, especially when it involves new technology. But ya, he actually promised something and acted on it. So I'd say that's better than always promising and nothing getting started at all.
the air travel industry is circling the drain. Do we think this VIP couple's experience will change anything ? Great story. More executive bonuses will help, right ?
Sometimes it's good to take a step back. Hey, here we go.
And then look at the takeaway.
Two people (where they worked ages ago is not relevant) spent $20K and got bumped to steerage. None of us would like that. The carrier offered them nothing useful. They said no. Still this is what we all would get. When it got ugly the carrier offered them 50% back
So
1. If you were looking...
Sometimes it's good to take a step back. Hey, here we go.
And then look at the takeaway.
Two people (where they worked ages ago is not relevant) spent $20K and got bumped to steerage. None of us would like that. The carrier offered them nothing useful. They said no. Still this is what we all would get. When it got ugly the carrier offered them 50% back
So
1. If you were looking forward to going to Africa to kill wild animals and had paid $20K for lie-flat seets, what amount of money would make up for you NOT getting those seats on yor way to kill wild animals?
2. If they were on a trip that didn't involve a "once in a lifetime safari" to kill wild animals on a foreign continent, what amount of money would make up for NOT getting those lie flat seats.
And finally:
3. When did OMAAT go from helping preserve traveler rights to helping preserve Ex-airline CEO rights to go kill wild animals on another continent as if they have some rights all the rest of us don't.
Use small words when responding. I can't read "stupid" in big letters.
People dont "kill wild animals" on a safari. Grow up. If you think that's what happens on a safari then you're really very ignorant.
Some people do. It's should have been referred to as a photo safari. I went on on Kenya and can highly recommend!
A safari involves seeing animals, not hunting them
You're very stupid indeed :)
What are you talking about? You are embarrassing yourself.
What an absolute imbecile
@Ehud, you need to do some a little research on safaris. Become educated before you start speaking nonsense. You are really showing just how ignorant you are.
You're commenting on a travel blog, posing as a travel expert, and don't even know what happens on a safari? Please take your armchair expertise somewhere else!
United president? Maybe KLM should have treated him like the guitar from the United Airlines song, that got smashed by United's baggage handlers.
The fact that they are former UA executives is irrelevant. If you or myself or anybody pays 10k for a ticket we deserve better, regardless of job or royal titles. It's quite irrelevant who you are, simply a customer
This story has a lot of DYKWIA vibes. Sh#t happens, even if you happen to be a former UA executive.
"I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate"
"What's that make us?"
"Nothing"
Well, they decided to not book direct and thus got the short end, for airline EX, they would have to know better. Finally, they know the stench of consumer travel and the brute that we have to deal with. I call that a win win.
this is what they get for having worked at united #SkyTeam #Delta #JV
You forgot that they didn't fly the most fuel efficient A350-1000s which are coming to you-know-who's fleet.
very good point, thank you Terence. These exciting new planes will offer the most premium experience possible on this Earth, while generating rasm of nearly $1,000,000,000,000.
Should have died in Small Claims Court each separately. I did with Air Canada and we resolved it in 5 minutes.
Awwww breaks my heart a former executive was treated like the rest of us. What's the world coming to?!
Guess they didn’t get positive space biz class on United in their retirement benefits odd given how senior he was
And at that fare rebooking on your own on another airline might have even saved money. Wonder why as retirees they were cutting the arrival so close to not get a night or two closer on the way to be rested.
They have the benefits, but United doesnt go anywhere near Tanzania. Sometimes people have to suck it up and pay, which is what they did.
On an itinerary from the USA to Tanzania, EC261 will not apply (unless they stayed in Amsterdam for more than 24 hours), regardless of which airline they flew.
Not true. Any flight, regardless or origin or destination, operated by an EU based carrier is liable for EU261 compensation.
@Daniel from Finland is correct.
No EC261.
@rrapynot is wrong.
Never understood where these people get the wrong info from.
Look how the tables how turned..
UA consistently denies EC rights, but when they travel... They know exactly what to quote
I mean, these people worked at UA over 20 years ago before these EC rules were in place. Stupid comment
Happened to my wife on El Al. One month later EL AL haven't even bothered to reply to her email.
Zionists actively shun responsibility, still I hope she can sort it out.
Something doesn't compute here for me in terms of the "former executive's" decision-making...
1. How did they manage to pay >$10k per pax for a KLM J flight? No matter how hard I try on Google Flights I am not getting any fares >$6k in peak season. Sounds like they were getting fleeced.
2. Would they have been within their rights to push to be rebooked onto another airline? I guess not as their flight wasn't cancelled altogether..
There's no right to be booked on another airline. The options would be either the downgrade compensation mentioned in the article, or refund of the ticket and compensation for any cancellation cost, including non-refundable hotel rooms etc.
Obviously, given KLMs behaviour, the latter way would probably lead to a lawsuit.
Agree that something doesn't compute here. Maybe the $10k cost refers to the whole trip, including accomodation, tours etc. in Tanzania. Would make sense, as the booking was made through an agent.
Who in their right mind would pay $10k for J on an international long-haul with a connection? You can easily travel in F for that sort of money.
I can easily find KLM RT business class tickets between MIA and DAR exceeding $10K. Were you searching for round trip tickets between MIA and DAR or just one way?
Following the principle that the simplest explanation that fits the facts tends to be the correct one…KLM did what airlines like United do every day. They swapped planes and crammed people into the available seats on the new aircraft. I doubt KLM have a lot of options in the US if they need a particular aircraft. Given that the wife is a lawyer I am surprised they did not iron everything out before boarding with their economy tickets.
This is a bit of a nothing story.
As is your comment.
KLM generally is not willing to pay any compensation and usually you'll need to contact the dispute resolution body. For that reason, I always avoid their flights and rather pay more for a different routing.
Do you think this potentially had anything to do with the fact that United is a competitor to Delta/KLM and they somehow found out about this couple's past?
No. What happened was this flight was downgraded and when that happened the row that they probably had seats in was eliminated. That's the easiest explanation.
Airlines dont have people sitting around at their headquarters/ in their reservations offices looking at the lists of passengers, googling their pasts, and deciding to take "revenge" on them in the event they need to downgrade people.
This ^
KL flys the A330-300 AMS-MIA-AMS and I’m guessing swapped in the A330-200 the day of departure resulting in a loss of 12 Business Class seats.
I still don’t get why they didn’t call KL immediately after receiving the downgrade email and work to be rebooked on AF via CDG which flys to a couple cities in Tanzania.
The key to this is that they are "former" executives, and therefore, it shouldn't matter.
Who knows how KLM decides on the downgrades, the compensation process wasn't great, but they ended up getting the compensation as required.
"Former" seems to oddly mean a lot to some people, but when you think about it, they were just clogs in a company at their time of employment, when they leave, someone replaces them.
Former of a totally different airline and alliance. KLM is not and never was a part of Star Alliance. In KLM’s eyes they are just another customer…
I’m surprised they would fly this route and not via a Star Alliance partner like Lufthansa!
Lufthansa doesn’t offer tickets for $10.000+ per pax in J, so they probably avoided it for being too cheap
Lufthansa doesnt fly to Tanzania, which is where they were going. From south florida which is where they live, KLM offers the most direct itinerary to tanzania. End of story - fealty to an alliance from a job over 20 years ago is not a thing.
I had a similar experience. I upgraded to business class at the airport check-in and got the last business class seat. Once on the plane I sat down and the station manager approached me. He said that another business class seat was broken so they needed to downgrade me so that person could have a working seat. Ok, fair enough.
To the crews credit they went above and beyond the entire flight and turned...
I had a similar experience. I upgraded to business class at the airport check-in and got the last business class seat. Once on the plane I sat down and the station manager approached me. He said that another business class seat was broken so they needed to downgrade me so that person could have a working seat. Ok, fair enough.
To the crews credit they went above and beyond the entire flight and turned a bad experience into a relatively pleasant one. The station manger had told me he would issue a refund request for the upgrade which he did but it was denied. I called KLM and they said it was an admin error with the form so they resubmitted the form but that too was denied. According the KLM I wasn’t entitled to a refund as I took the flight? All I was trying to do was get a refund for the upgrade. I had to issue a chargeback which to date KLM haven’t disputed. On the plus side they still issued points against the fee I paid to upgrade and haven’t taken them back.
Ironically that flight pushed me into Flying Blue Silver, the first time I had earned elite status with an airline but because of this experience I haven’t flown KLM since.
My experience with KLM is similar. Compensation according to EC legislation I online received after involving the EC authorities.
With BA or LH I never had those problems
OMG, shouldn’t they downgrade lowest fare ticket?
There's generally a hierarchy within each airline on how to handle these. Most of them seem to base it off status first.