In late 2025, Delta announced plans to launch nonstop flights between Atlanta (ATL) and Riyadh (RUH), with Delta CEO Ed Bastian recently claiming that Saudi Arabia is one of his favorite places that he has been in a very long time. The airline is partnering with Riyadh Air, but beyond that, the company is obviously chasing subsidies, given that Saudi Arabia is paying airlines to fly to Riyadh.
With this route expected to launch in roughly three months, here’s an interesting question — will Delta actually move forward with this service, or will it delay the launch?
In this post:
Delta flights to Riyadh are empty, empty, empty
OMAAT reader Matt points to a post by Enilria, sharing something interesting. Delta executives recently claimed that the carrier’s long haul network is typically 50-60% booked 90 days before departure.
We’re now approaching 90 days until the Atlanta to Riyadh route launches, so how are things looking? Of course load factors in advance of a flight aren’t accessible by the public, but instead, we can only look at seat maps.
Seat maps are never a 100% accurate indicator of how full a flight is. That being said, they give you a good sense of things, especially on an airline that typically doesn’t charge for seat assignments (as is the case for Delta on long haul flights, at least for the most part).
So it’s entirely possible that the number of people booked is higher than the number of seats that show as occupied, but it’s unlikely to be by an order of magnitude. So, how are things looking as of now? Let’s ignore the October 23 inaugural flight from Atlanta to Riyadh, since there will likely be some media on there. After that (the flight doesn’t operate on October 31):
- The October 24 flight shows five seats as occupied
- The October 25 flight shows one seat as occupied
- The October 26 flight shows zero seat as occupied
- The October 27 flight shows zero seat as occupied
- The October 28 flight shows two seat as occupied
- The October 29 flight shows zero seat as occupied
- The October 30 flight shows zero seat as occupied
- The November 1 flight shows zero seat as occupied
By my math, there are eight seats assigned on the first eight non-inaugural flights. That’s an average of one seat per flight.
Let’s assume that demand for this Riyadh route comes roaring in, and will increase by 1000% in the 90 days leading up to travel. Well, that’s still not very promising, is it? 😉
Delta will delay the launch of this route… right?
Admittedly it takes time to build up demand in a new long haul market, so you don’t expect a route to be profitable at first. However, there’s a fine line between a flight that takes some time to build up, vs. one like this.
In all my years of being nerdy and looking at seat maps, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a route look this empty. The operating costs on this flight will be massive (given Delta’s labor costs, fuel costs, etc.), and there’s no economic reality in which this won’t hemorrhage money.
Admittedly there’s unrest in the Middle East, but Riyadh is less impacted by this than places like Doha and Dubai, given that it’s further from Iran. If anything, you’d think that Delta would be able to capture more Saudi Arabia origin and destination traffic that doesn’t want to route through airports that are closer to Iran, even though they may otherwise consider connecting.
Now, the wild card here is that Saudi Arabia has the Air Connectivity Program, intended to incentivize airlines to fly to Riyadh. So Delta is no doubt looking at a massive amount of subsidies for operating this service. However, are we talking about enough subsidies to make an empty flight profitable, or will that not work? If it does, it might just be time for me launch an airline! 😉 
Bottom line
Delta is now roughly three months from launching its new route to Saudi Arabia. Delta executives claim long haul flights are typically 50-60% booked at that point. In the case of Delta’s Riyadh route, I see a total of eight seats assigned across the first eight flights (excluding the inaugural). That’s an average of one assigned seat per flight.
Yes, seat maps aren’t a 100% accurate indicator of how full a flight is, but it does give you a pretty good sense. One would assume the airline would postpone this flight, but with subsidies, maybe it’s possible to even make money flying empty planes to Riyadh, as long as Saudi Arabia is footing the bill.
What’s your bet on Delta launching Riyadh flights, vs. postponing the service?
I was just in Riyadh last week. My biz ticket on AF JFK CDG RUH was $3400. Delta has these ATL- RUH seats priced at $7500 for Nov 4 -12. That could be a deterrent!
Saudi Arabia is trying to establish a tourist base from the US by giving Delta subsidies to fly there. I estimate that within 3 years the flight will be ar least 60% full. The Saudi goverment is following the same strategy/business model as Dubai in the UAE The Saudi have already built some very extravagant resorts.
With no alcohol allowed, they will face a steep uphill climb.
Can you say "Houthis"
Just started firing at Saudi targets today. United left Dubai would not be surprised if Delta does too. That said, may be holding prices high until line up connecting itineraries through obvious target partner Riyadh Air.
Hundreds of nuclear scientists will travel from USA to Saudi to help with Donny’s new Middle East Tension De-escalation Project. They’ll need a Premium travel experience. It all makes sense now!
seriously don't write Saudi Arabia off. They have long wanted to be the lynchpin in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia was on the verge of a diplomatic breakthrough with Israel when Israel was attacked.
Whether it is nuclear scientists or not, Saudi Arabia is very likely to take on a much larger level of importance on the world stage.
Someone more cynical than I might argue that the Great Kingdom is quite well-placed when it comes to any sort of lynching.
Tim... *whoosh* (on so many levels)
The demand to go to Saudi Arabia would be Muslims going to Mecca. Other than that there is no draw. The Trump kids tried a tournament where athletes can use steroids and any other to enhance their performance, but it failed. I think it went to Las Vegas. Another Trump thing, the LVV golf with Phil Nicholson, that also failed.
I understand they started construction on their several mile long mall, apartment, entertainment, but...
The demand to go to Saudi Arabia would be Muslims going to Mecca. Other than that there is no draw. The Trump kids tried a tournament where athletes can use steroids and any other to enhance their performance, but it failed. I think it went to Las Vegas. Another Trump thing, the LVV golf with Phil Nicholson, that also failed.
I understand they started construction on their several mile long mall, apartment, entertainment, but then stopped due to shortage of funds. I don't think there is a shortage of funds, I think it was not the brightest idea in the desert.
Just today Trump announced he is giving Saudi nuclear.
What a story. You are a good spy Ben finding all those Ghost Flights from Atlanta to Saudi.
What I'm wondering is why Delta isn't heavily discounting mileage tickets for these flights, or even paid tickets, if the planes are so empty? That would seem like a way to help get more passengers on the planes, and earn some additional revenue, no?
Even if DL starts code shares with Riyadh Air, Delta does not want to give ultra cheap connecting fares to India and surrounding countries, that would undermine KL and AF flight fares to that region.
Millions will go there to preform Hajj and Umrah and they are not nuts.
The fact that Delta is still showing redemptions at 1M miles r/t in business class for this route during those dates is evidence enough that they would rather let planes go empty than lower the "dynamic" pricing to reflect demand. For those of you who keep loving on Delta - they are like an abusive partner - manipulating you with words and offering nothing in return for your "loyalty."
Whatever system they are using...
The fact that Delta is still showing redemptions at 1M miles r/t in business class for this route during those dates is evidence enough that they would rather let planes go empty than lower the "dynamic" pricing to reflect demand. For those of you who keep loving on Delta - they are like an abusive partner - manipulating you with words and offering nothing in return for your "loyalty."
Whatever system they are using internally to calculate "dynamic pricing" is clearly programmed to default to, "Give them nothing."
Perhaps they found it's better in the end to just blanket default to "Give them nothing." Perhaps they thought no one would ever notice. Clearly it's working thus far and consumers are clearly gullible given how profitable they are. But this example shows without question that they are doing it across the board and could care less about premium when it comes to loyalty programs.
Why anyone would want to fly them as a result is beyond me.
Who wants to fly on Delta when Etihad one way is $360 vs Delta's $960 for main cabin.
My view: this route is dependent on leveraging the Riyadh Air partnership. Keep in mind RX just launched public ticket sales one month ago, and is rapidly ramping up service with new destinations starting every few weeks.
My guess is RX wants to compete with EK QR EY to capture some of the US-India/South Asia through-traffic. For example RX RUH-BOM is to start daily service imminently, but when searching in late-2026 I don’t currently...
My view: this route is dependent on leveraging the Riyadh Air partnership. Keep in mind RX just launched public ticket sales one month ago, and is rapidly ramping up service with new destinations starting every few weeks.
My guess is RX wants to compete with EK QR EY to capture some of the US-India/South Asia through-traffic. For example RX RUH-BOM is to start daily service imminently, but when searching in late-2026 I don’t currently see ATL-RUH-BOM (DL/RX codeshares) for sale yet. Surely that is part of the plan. Until that partnership is fully live I don’t expect DL to be selling a lot of seats.
Depends if they expect the demand to be leisure or business. I don't think many people are booking a leisure vacation to Riyadh months in advance.
If there are no passengers on a flight do the flight attendants still need to do a safety briefing?
yes
Maybe Delta will start flights to Beirut (BEY) now that trump lifted the ban on nonstop U.S.-Lebanon flights, and directed U.S. carries to start service there. ;)
You might be surprised. Beirut hub operator Middle East Airlines and Delta are both Skyteam airlines.
There certainly no deals to be had on any of those flights…cost is crazy high.
It's funny, just yesterday, I pondering an award booking for this flight (not via sky pesos, of course) for late Nov. How safe is the airspace do you think? I understand it's not right in the middle of conflict zone line DOH/AUH/DXB.
*kicks tire* ...eh, safe enough.
Trey, if you were serious, please pardon my dry sense of humor; no, it's genuinely unpredictable across the whole region right now. Expect any itinerary to get changed, diverted, or canceled. Did you miss the mass chaos in February, or actual drone strikes on Kuwait and Dubai's terminals? Plus, most travel insurance won't help with a 'known risk,' like a pre-existing 'war,' so if you get stuck over there, you're likely footing the bill. November...
Trey, if you were serious, please pardon my dry sense of humor; no, it's genuinely unpredictable across the whole region right now. Expect any itinerary to get changed, diverted, or canceled. Did you miss the mass chaos in February, or actual drone strikes on Kuwait and Dubai's terminals? Plus, most travel insurance won't help with a 'known risk,' like a pre-existing 'war,' so if you get stuck over there, you're likely footing the bill. November is a gamble. No one really knows where any of this is going.
@1990 Whilst I appreciate your perspective, we have plenty of friends in the Middle East, especially Dubai and Abu Dhabi, who are just cracking in with day to day life.
One is more likely to be a casualty of gang related violence in any of our US big cities, or driving up and down the I-405.
I personally have no concerns transiting the ME, and would gladly do so.
Oh, hey there, I see the Qatari, Emirati, and Saudi PR-squad is hot on the case! *missiles and drones hitting buildings* 'Nothing to see here... all is well... remember, California-bad.' *facepalm*
I am not sure what PR squad you are on about, but the information we have is first hand from close friends.
I imagine most days are totally fine, just as in big American cities; occasionally there are incidents, but, unlike Los Angeles or New York City, there isn’t a literal war nearby. And, unlike Tel Aviv, there’s no Iron Dome in Dubai or Doha.
At the end of the day, everyone has to consider their own risk profile - I will still maintain that most US cities are more dangerous than Dubai etc., even with the ongoing conflict in the ME.
Please do consider your own personal risk tolerance, as I already suggested above, but we're comparing two very different risk profiles here.
Street crime in US cities is a localized personal safety issue, whereas flying through Gulf hubs carries macro-geopolitical and operational risks. Recall the March 2026 drone strike hitting the fuel tank infrastructure at Dubai International (DXB), causing fires, flight suspensions, and mass diversions.
Even with air defenses like THAAD and Patriots, no...
Please do consider your own personal risk tolerance, as I already suggested above, but we're comparing two very different risk profiles here.
Street crime in US cities is a localized personal safety issue, whereas flying through Gulf hubs carries macro-geopolitical and operational risks. Recall the March 2026 drone strike hitting the fuel tank infrastructure at Dubai International (DXB), causing fires, flight suspensions, and mass diversions.
Even with air defenses like THAAD and Patriots, no system intercepts 100% of saturation attacks or falling debris. So while daily violent crime in Dubai is virtually zero, transiting through an active conflict carries an elevated risk profile (airspace shutdowns and proximity to military targeting) that doesn't exist when flying through major Western hubs.
Whilst I appreciate your perspective, I will say that there is a degree of sensationalism to some of your posts.
Sure, the ME is going through a period of uncertainty, but still nothing compared to what a lot of our inner city neighbourhoods are faced with.
Ah, so direct drone strikes on airport infrastructure, burning fuel tanks, and grounded fleets are just 'a period of uncertainty.' Silly me for believing my lying eyes.
Calling physical strikes on global travel hubs 'sensationalism' downplays real risks. Deflecting to "inner cities" (interesting word-choice) is also a false equivalence; most passengers aren't going for a midnight stroll in E. St. Louis (no, they wait for a connection in an airport lounge.)
For most, thankfully,...
Ah, so direct drone strikes on airport infrastructure, burning fuel tanks, and grounded fleets are just 'a period of uncertainty.' Silly me for believing my lying eyes.
Calling physical strikes on global travel hubs 'sensationalism' downplays real risks. Deflecting to "inner cities" (interesting word-choice) is also a false equivalence; most passengers aren't going for a midnight stroll in E. St. Louis (no, they wait for a connection in an airport lounge.)
For most, thankfully, their trips should and will be uneventful; but, for some, like Manzoor Ahmed and the 63 others injured at KWI on June 3, 2026, the risk was too real.
Who wants to visit a theocracy in an unstable part of the world? Considering how many christofascists are gaining power in USA, I’m surprised they aren’t interested in traveling there.
I'm with you, Jay, but... *Ed gestures to dump truck filled with gold* ...yeah. That.
I just checked the round-trip economy fares, and they're outrageous across every month. It's no surprise Delta is struggling with LDF. As a former pricing analyst, I find this pretty absurd. If they are receiving subsidies, you'd think that they'd use them to stimulate demand rather than keeping fares this high, especially in the beginning
PHL-DOH 2.0
And yet they still will charge a million skypesos for the flight!
...as is tradition.
But that actually slightly works because Qatar is a real airline with a real network. Riyadh Air is not a real airline. They're a PR company that flies empty planes to single digit destinations.
Julia’s here. If we get MaxPower and rebel in-on-this, I bet we can get the comment numbers from the 50s into the hundreds.
Meh
It’s delta and skypesos
It’s a subsidized route just like the partnership with Riyadh air
Are you at 1/3 of all posts so far, 1990?
MaxPower, good point; I need to get my numbers up! *walks into a cactus*
@1990
lol
Their pricing is ridiculous on it. I just plugged in some random dates from NYC to RUH. They are more than 2x other one-stop options in J on airlines that are frankly higher quality (GF, TK, etc). So not totally shocked the plane is empty...
@ Tim -- IIRC, I predicted that no one would book these flights when they were first announced. Looks like I was correct.
I bet if they lowered the price enough, Delta could at least get some mile runners to buy...
Yet Delta is still quoting business class redemptions at 500K points one way for all those dates.
My understanding of the subsidy agreement is that it’s structured as a risk-sharing / loss-compensation deal, effectively cost neutral for both parties but I imagine DL is operating a lot of cargo on the route
Bone-saws. There's a serious shortage of bone-saws there currently. No shortage of journalists.
Hiya Bono, man, you were really giving Stephen at FM ‘run’ today on that Chase RAT post… (Is it you, again? @Unintimidated. Greenberg Traurig, etc. Where’d Aero end up?)
Possibly DL thinks there's a market to develop there. But if load factors are really bad the flight won't last long.
Ya know, you'd think so, but if the Saudis subsidize it, DL can fly that thang empty for-ever-ever.
Just like LIV
Hopefully cheap tickets and not a bad distance if trying to make Million Miller status.
If Delta can afford to fly them empty (subsidies), then they can subsidise the passengers with $10 tickets each way. Fill 'em up, Ed!
I believe you yourself, Ben, have said these flights are subsidized in order to bring new service. whether it is enough to cover the full cost of operating an empty or near empty airplane remains to be seen.
also, the flight only operates daily for the first week, IIRC, and then goes to 3X/week, again, IIRC.
Riyadh Air is rapidly building its own network so I am not even sure their schedules are solid enough...
I believe you yourself, Ben, have said these flights are subsidized in order to bring new service. whether it is enough to cover the full cost of operating an empty or near empty airplane remains to be seen.
also, the flight only operates daily for the first week, IIRC, and then goes to 3X/week, again, IIRC.
Riyadh Air is rapidly building its own network so I am not even sure their schedules are solid enough to begin to build connections where they might be possible.
The real kicker will be that, if DL starts the route, it could well be the only US carrier flight to the entire Middle East - Arab or Israeli.
"If"
Pilot Pual, not gonna lie, that was pretty good. Rarely has a one-word reply done so much work.
@1990: Done a little reading lately. Inspired by the Spartans. Few cultures could say so much with so few words.
@Tim Dunn: I don't see it (Delta, maybe to Riyadh, maybe in three months) as such a big deal... "Delta as the only carrier to Middle East." Delta, American, and United are all waiting to start Tel Aviv service again, American could return to Doha, and United is waiting for things to calm down...
@1990: Done a little reading lately. Inspired by the Spartans. Few cultures could say so much with so few words.
@Tim Dunn: I don't see it (Delta, maybe to Riyadh, maybe in three months) as such a big deal... "Delta as the only carrier to Middle East." Delta, American, and United are all waiting to start Tel Aviv service again, American could return to Doha, and United is waiting for things to calm down to resume direct flights to Dubai.
If things stabilize enough for Delta to fly to the Middle East, they certainly won't be the only one doing it
you mean the only one willing to take the risk? Pretty sure prior to the Iran conflict, United flew to Dubai regularly on a 777.
And for sure Israel was on the list also for the other airlines...
Yeah sorry I forgot that being the only US carrier that flies to a region thats a hotbed of war is my most important factor in choosing an airline. Oh and when there isn't a war there is another US carrier that flies multiples of the flights (5x to TLV a day and 1x to DXB?) that this one does to the region. Yeah massive achievement Tim, DL should be so proud of flying empty...
Yeah sorry I forgot that being the only US carrier that flies to a region thats a hotbed of war is my most important factor in choosing an airline. Oh and when there isn't a war there is another US carrier that flies multiples of the flights (5x to TLV a day and 1x to DXB?) that this one does to the region. Yeah massive achievement Tim, DL should be so proud of flying empty planes to a region no one wants to go to and relying on government subsidies. Just a month ago you were laughing at UA for flying a 787 to CTS at least they aren't relying on subsidies for it!
poor baby.
Just like I was certain to be the case.
The UA snot kids would get their noses in a twit at the mere mention that DL might very well be the only US carrier serving the Middle East.
yeah, because of war - and where it is.
doesn't mean that the State Dept. might not tell DL it isn't a good idea to fly to RUH but apparently right now they haven't said "no" for a flight 3 months out.
"UA snot kids" - ha - the guy boating about a flight that has sold 8 seats haha.
Just another classic case of Tim Dunn scoping a market: "Delta might be the only US carrier (Doesn't matter as UA is partnered with Emirates the literal largest Middle East Carrier and AA with Qatar the second largest middle east carrier) flying to the middle east (not a continent just a region of the world where different...
"UA snot kids" - ha - the guy boating about a flight that has sold 8 seats haha.
Just another classic case of Tim Dunn scoping a market: "Delta might be the only US carrier (Doesn't matter as UA is partnered with Emirates the literal largest Middle East Carrier and AA with Qatar the second largest middle east carrier) flying to the middle east (not a continent just a region of the world where different parts of it behave very differently so kinda pointless to group it as an aviation market), during a war (because in normal times DL flies to the region the least).
Just for some context: UA flies more flights than DL to Europe, Africa, China, Japan, India, Australia, South Pacific and South America and the Middle East (when there isn't a war). Tell me more about how DL is winning.
Latest NYC Traffic Dashboard update is out by the way Tim, 12 month rolling: UA is up 660k pax and Delta is down 620k pax - over a million pax movement differential - why is Delta losing so hard in NYC Tim? Isn't this the market you were adamant UA would lose in because of EWR issues? UA is now at their highest NYC market share in years? Why were you so wrong about this? I thought you were knowledgable on aviation?
@Andy: Nice pull. Always fun quoting inconvenient stats. For those who want to see the NYC market themselves and play along:
https://www.panynj.gov/airports/en/statistics-general-info.html
Toggle:
- All airports
- 12 Month Rolling
- Passenger Detail
United, 25.7% load share, 35,215,040 Pax, +659,127 Pax YOY diff, +1.9% YOY
Delta: 25.0% load share, 34,269,027 Pax, -614,686 Pax YOY diff, -1.8% YOY
It's almost as if 600k passengers left Delta for United in the NYC...
@Andy: Nice pull. Always fun quoting inconvenient stats. For those who want to see the NYC market themselves and play along:
https://www.panynj.gov/airports/en/statistics-general-info.html
Toggle:
- All airports
- 12 Month Rolling
- Passenger Detail
United, 25.7% load share, 35,215,040 Pax, +659,127 Pax YOY diff, +1.9% YOY
Delta: 25.0% load share, 34,269,027 Pax, -614,686 Pax YOY diff, -1.8% YOY
It's almost as if 600k passengers left Delta for United in the NYC area.
Now, to be fair, the data actually shows among domestic (US) carriers nearly 2,300,000 fewer NYC area passengers chose Alaska, Delta, JetBlue, and Southwest YOY. And nearly 1,400,000 additional ones decided to fly Frontier, American, and United YOY. We can't really say who left what carrier to go to what other carrier based on those numbers alone.
But we can clearly see who's tending up and who's tending down in the NYC market.
Keep in mind that Tim Dunn worked as an Information Technologies Analyst for Delta Air Lines for more than 30 years.
@Tim
You do realize there are Arabs who are also Israeli.
yes. I do.
I could just change my statement to say that DL could be the only US airline flying to the ENTIRE Middle East.
Steve,
one day the scales will fall off your eyes. Until then, we all do laugh.
Andy,
DL's position at LGA and JFK is better than it has ever been. And don't forget that UA is a gnat on a donkey's backside at LGA and not even...
yes. I do.
I could just change my statement to say that DL could be the only US airline flying to the ENTIRE Middle East.
Steve,
one day the scales will fall off your eyes. Until then, we all do laugh.
Andy,
DL's position at LGA and JFK is better than it has ever been. And don't forget that UA is a gnat on a donkey's backside at LGA and not even at JFK while DL is adding to its position at EWR with transcon flights.
DL could care less if UA carries more passengers on domestic configured narrowbodies to Europe.
and I can assure you that the combined strategic advantage DL has between NYC and LAX will grow significantly over the next few years.
Tim, don’t forget, Delta’s doing alright at EWR Terminal A, too. Nice new-ish SkyClub, more a220s, less 717s. Just sayin’ if you’re talkin’ NYC-area, remember to include Newark… *wink* (alrighty, now, back at ‘em!) UA-NYC, what say ye?! *stirs pot*
The Timcel Taint is raw by the absolute A-whipping he’s taking in this thread!
NYC market share collapsing. But at least they have the monster LAXMNL flight soon! Surely that will offset it.
That Manila thread was an all-time ball-busterama! Legendary.
@Tim: "DL's position at LGA and JFK is better than it has ever been."
Sorry, that just doesn't appear to be true. Go to the Port Authority's latest NYC dashboard, isolate to JFK and LGA, do the "12 Month Rolling" option, and hit the "Passenger Detail" tab.
It says Delta is currently DOWN, YOY, by 650,340 passengers. FYI - American is UP 536,225 passengers over the same period, at the same two airports. I...
@Tim: "DL's position at LGA and JFK is better than it has ever been."
Sorry, that just doesn't appear to be true. Go to the Port Authority's latest NYC dashboard, isolate to JFK and LGA, do the "12 Month Rolling" option, and hit the "Passenger Detail" tab.
It says Delta is currently DOWN, YOY, by 650,340 passengers. FYI - American is UP 536,225 passengers over the same period, at the same two airports. I wonder where American got those new passengers???
Unless you are going to claim Delta lost, say, one million low-yield, economy passengers and replaced them with 350k high yield business travelers - I cannot see ANY way to spin the YOY loss of 650k passengers making Delta "better than it's every been" in NYC.
But you're the analytical expert, right?
please don't tell me you hold a pilot cert from the FAA, Paul.
For LGA, WN is down 9%, B6 is down 27%, F9 is down 9%.
DL is simply not interested in beating its legacy carrier competitors who are both trying to figure out how to get even more share in LGA and JFK.
and AA and UA don't undercut DL on pricing because DL can and will do the same thing in...
please don't tell me you hold a pilot cert from the FAA, Paul.
For LGA, WN is down 9%, B6 is down 27%, F9 is down 9%.
DL is simply not interested in beating its legacy carrier competitors who are both trying to figure out how to get even more share in LGA and JFK.
and AA and UA don't undercut DL on pricing because DL can and will do the same thing in AA and UA hubs; DL's revenue is up way more than their system average.
and DL, as the largest carrier benefits from tighter capacity.
same story at JFK.
Again, I shutter to think that you are ever in the cockpit of any aircraft.
1990,
yes, you get it.
DL serves all 3 airports and is growing at EWR where it is already the 2nd largest airline at EWR according to the same data that pitiful Paul can't be bothered to look at for EWR. every other airline at EWR including AA, B6, and AS are down except for F9.
UA can't add flights at JFK, DL can and is adding flights at EWR.
you simpletons never will get it.
$800 million dollar more profit in just one quarter proves DL knows what it is doing.
@Tim:
Tim says, "For LGA, WN is down 9%, B6 is down 27%, F9 is down 9%."
Yep. And YOY in LGA, Delta's share is down 0.9%, while United is up 7.7%, and American is up 6.7%. You left those three out of your rebuttal.
Tim says, "DL is simply not interested in beating its legacy carrier competitors who are both trying to figure out how to get even more share in LGA and JFK"
...@Tim:
Tim says, "For LGA, WN is down 9%, B6 is down 27%, F9 is down 9%."
Yep. And YOY in LGA, Delta's share is down 0.9%, while United is up 7.7%, and American is up 6.7%. You left those three out of your rebuttal.
Tim says, "DL is simply not interested in beating its legacy carrier competitors who are both trying to figure out how to get even more share in LGA and JFK"
Sounds like American and United both HAVE figured out how to get more share in LGA, since they are both up, while Delta is down. And without undercutting Delta's pricing (according to you)!
I've already proven Delta is doing worse in LGA. Now let's do JFK! Delta's share is down 2.7% YOY, while American is up 0.4%. United isn't in JFK yet of course, and I won't be able to divide be zero when they DO resume flights in 2027. But expect their share to be higher soon.
Tim says, "DL serves all 3 airports and is growing at EWR where it is already the 2nd largest airline at EWR according to the same data that pitiful Paul can't be bothered to look at..."
Yep. I only looked at JFK and LGA because YOU claimed "DL's position at LGA and JFK is better than it has ever been." But it's not. Delta's YOY passenger count is down by 650k passengers. Going down is not getting better.
I ignored EWR because so did you. So let's look at EWR.
For May, Delta was #3 in total passengers behind United and American, not #2. YTD Delta was ahead of American in total passengers by 2,200, which was statistically a tie (shown as 4.4% for both). Last rolling 12 months, Delta beat American by 0.1%. Is that what you're excited about - a 0.1% difference - when you brag that Delta is "already the 2nd largest airline at EWR..."? You've said in other posts (about Delta's higher cancellation rates) that a difference of less than 1% isn't a big deal. So why is 0.1% better for Delta suddenly a big deal to you?
To put it in perspective, Delta's reported domestic EWR passenger share still hasn't beaten SPIRIT'S domestic passenger share in EWR YTD (7% vs. 6%) and Spirit was shut down for basically all of May. Wow!
And as usual, you ignored and pivoted from your claim I proved to be false, when you posted, "Delta's position in LGA and JFK is better than ever."
If you only do ONE thing to reply - explain how flying 650k fewer passengers YOY is doing better.
PP, thank you for bringing a risk published data in to the mix! Very clear about the DL NYC collapse.
Of course Tiny Handed Tim is a failed, biased “analyst” so he will cut and run from any actual truthful rebuttal. What a chump.
all that keyboard banging and you can't accept that DL's goal is not size but revenue and profit.
DL's strategy in NYC is not to grow share or number of passengers as low and ultra cost carriers continue to fail and DL's share vs. LCCs/ULCCs in NYC is larger.
Yields and revenue is going up in NYC and the feds are trying desperately to keep the big 3 from taking over NYC.
DL will...
all that keyboard banging and you can't accept that DL's goal is not size but revenue and profit.
DL's strategy in NYC is not to grow share or number of passengers as low and ultra cost carriers continue to fail and DL's share vs. LCCs/ULCCs in NYC is larger.
Yields and revenue is going up in NYC and the feds are trying desperately to keep the big 3 from taking over NYC.
DL will always be the king of LGA and JFK and even if UA gets handful of slots at JFK, they will never have anywhere near the number of flights from NYC as DL does or the size at LGA or JFK that DL has.
DL is almost twice the size of AA in NYC.
B6 from the 2 airlines that will be begging for more access to LGA and JFK. is still on the ropes and the last smart thing that DL should be doing is grabbing share
You and most of the simple minded internet crowd can't understand long term strategy which DL has proven over and over again it understands.
and in one comparison you use 12 month rolling average and then you come back that AA is larger in May.
none of this matters regarding RUH but it does show how badly some people can't accept the fact that DL might very well be the only US carrier serving the Middle East as a result of ongoing tensions that aren't going away anytime soon that make cities that border the Persian Gulf as well as Israel much riskier than inland cities like RUH.
again, I shudder to think that you fly a plane given your lack of logic - or your need to argue just like the simpletons that hide under Kirby's desk.
sTD:
"all that keyboard banging and you can't accept that DL's goal is not size but revenue and profit."
Everyone is replying to your fake claims of size in NYC, the Pacific, Latin America, etc... not revenue. Perhaps you should think before you post in the future.
But it's nice to see you're no longer concerned with Delta's size anymore
@Tim:
Okay, Tim. So you ARE arguing that Delta is executing a plan to dominate the NYC market and make more money, by flying fewer passengers this year than last year.Sounds great. I'll just get out of their way and go fly my jet today.
As they say, never interrupt an enemy when they are making a mistake. Best of luck, Delta.
“UA is a gnat on a donkey's backside at LGA.... while DL is adding to its position at EWR with transcon flights”
UA literally carries 800k more passengers (L12 months) at LGA than DL does at EWR - or if you prefer %s, roughly 38% larger
this part is really funny from Tim, DL is smaller than a gnat on a donkey's backside at EWR and he thinks that is a win for Delta... And then you add B6, a UA partner now and suddenly UA isn't a gnat on a donkey's backside in any NYC airport...
I never said that DL's strategy is to be the largest in NYC; that is the schtick UA uses and it they can't turn it into a revenue or profit advantage anywhere.
and, again, DL serves all 3 airports. UA does not.
please don't use that horse manure claim about B6 being a UA partner like the simpletons do about AA and AS; neither have a joint venture. If you think that UA pilots...
I never said that DL's strategy is to be the largest in NYC; that is the schtick UA uses and it they can't turn it into a revenue or profit advantage anywhere.
and, again, DL serves all 3 airports. UA does not.
please don't use that horse manure claim about B6 being a UA partner like the simpletons do about AA and AS; neither have a joint venture. If you think that UA pilots are going to allow UA to put UA's code on B6 flights, you are more than just naive
and DL intends to serve transcon markets from both EWR and JFK.
yes, DL is better positioned in NYC than it is have ever been.
Get back w/ us with the REVENUE, not boarding share, when DL and UA complete their NYC shootouts incuding DL's addition of NYC-Asia flights.
What in the world are you talking about? NOBODY said United will use JetBlue as a code share, joint venture, etc to inflate passenger share numbers. NOBODY had claimed that. You are literally making stuff up as you go along now.
Besides, they don't need to, to show a higher share of NYC traffic than Delta.
You cannot seem to ever accept that you said something ("Delta is better than ever in JFK and LGA!")...
What in the world are you talking about? NOBODY said United will use JetBlue as a code share, joint venture, etc to inflate passenger share numbers. NOBODY had claimed that. You are literally making stuff up as you go along now.
Besides, they don't need to, to show a higher share of NYC traffic than Delta.
You cannot seem to ever accept that you said something ("Delta is better than ever in JFK and LGA!") that is not supported AT ALL by the facts an independent report puts out (Port Authority - Delta NY traffic DOWN YOY by 650k passengers).
But you are consistent at having a unique opinion, at ignoring data, and trying to create your own facts. At that at least you remain unchanged.
TD, I'm sure you would agree that international flights carry a higher yield, yes? Using the data provided by the PA, yes, Delta does carry more domestic passengers than United. You got them there, the data is there, we can agree on that, no?
So, if Delta is so high profit and only chases the most profitable routes, we see that DL is winning in # of pax flying domestically from all three NYC airports....
TD, I'm sure you would agree that international flights carry a higher yield, yes? Using the data provided by the PA, yes, Delta does carry more domestic passengers than United. You got them there, the data is there, we can agree on that, no?
So, if Delta is so high profit and only chases the most profitable routes, we see that DL is winning in # of pax flying domestically from all three NYC airports. But, they lag significantly on international routes. In fact, for international routes, DL is only slightly ahead of B6. And we know the B6 routes are primarily to leisure destinations with lower yields. UA increased TATL, TPAC, and domestic. DL down across all three (well TPAC is 0). I even checked cargo, and UA beat UPS.
So explain again how DL is winning NYC?
Saudi must be desperate to fill all those luxury hotels in the Red Sea which are ghost towns at the moment.
Riyadh is nowhere near the red sea. But sure.
@Pilot93434 - First of all, look up what the Red Sea Project is. Second, no US airline is going to fly to Red Sea International directly, so it would make obvious sense to funnel those passengers through other major hubs like Riyadh, Jeddah, and so on.
you can sense the desperation, DL management trying to manifest a middle east partner through sheer pleading and wishing
Feels very... Nuuk. No, no... Ulaanbaatar.
When I managed Middle East revenue management and pricing for a major western airline that flew to Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region, we noticed in all countries a MUCH MUCH closer in booking window. Like thinks in general didn't book until month/month and a half out. Whereas deltas flights book farther out because they're mostly Americans going to Europe or whatnot who make plans far in advance. The people who are going...
When I managed Middle East revenue management and pricing for a major western airline that flew to Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region, we noticed in all countries a MUCH MUCH closer in booking window. Like thinks in general didn't book until month/month and a half out. Whereas deltas flights book farther out because they're mostly Americans going to Europe or whatnot who make plans far in advance. The people who are going to/ from Saudi have a much different profile. It's not the same. This is obviously insight that people like airline speller backwards and other armchair analysts wouldn't have, but is something that executives at airlines who make the decisions to fly to these destinations have. Who knows- they could delay the start or scrap the route entirely, but I wouldn't put too much stock into the idle and uninformed musings of an internet airline industry observer.
touché
This flight is really only useful for people based in ATL. Why would you connect there over DOH, DXB, AUH, IST, CDG, or LHR unless you're very very Delta pilled.
Don't forget about all the one-stop connections this opens up to a variety of secondary markets... ATL has a lot of connectivity if they weren't concerned about connectivity they might've been better off operating from some of the other destinations in their route network
"Why would you connect there over"
The same people who connect there to various other destinations, versus those hubs?
The answer to that (ridiculously simplistic) question is always the same:
FFP miles
Corporate Contract
Systemwide/Global upgrades
Schedule
Pricing
Familiarity
Etc etc.
All the above can be applied to any airline/route whenever that same question is asked. Don't know why people keep asking it. It's so dumb.
YoU dO reAliZe that when Delta operates empty flights, its called "strategy", but when United does it, it's called "stupid"
DUH
"anecdotal"
Ben, you know better than to question ANYTHING DL does - they are the bestest & most perfect airline flying, and they undoubtedly have figured out a way to add to their BILLIONS of profits by the sheer genuius of flying these planes empty!
And people will even pay to have the experience of seeing premium planes flying completely empty.
UA-NYC, what's your running 'bit' about the ole 'cuck chair,' again?
UA-NYC, if you keep talkin' cray-cray like this, we'll need to get the 'cu*k chair' out for you!
@1990
UA is being sarcastic
justindev, what?? No... never.... (must we add the '/s' to everything?)
Delta is a credit card company with a refinery. Not real airline. Right Timmy???
They don’t make money flying planes. The airline has 1960s IT software and a third world app designed by 5th graders. Nobody is flying Riyadh to ATL.