In the coming months, American Airlines will start flying Boeing 787s out of New York, which should have some interesting implications. I first wrote about this several weeks ago, but there’s now a major update, as the number of 787 routes out of New York is increasing considerably.
In this post:
American opening Boeing 787 pilot base in New York
Airlines put a lot of thought into deciding which aircraft to base out of which hubs. For example, American’s wide body fleet currently consists of 787s and 777s, yet you won’t find both aircraft types at all major hubs. The airline exclusively flies 777s out of New York, while the airline exclusively flies 787s out of Philadelphia. Until a couple of years ago, American only based 777s (and not 787s) out of Miami, but that has finally changed.
What’s the logic for this kind of fleet planning? While you want to be able to match capacity to demand, there are costs to basing multiple types of aircraft at an airport in terms of pilot staffing, maintenance, etc.
Along those lines, American is making a notable change to its fleet planning for New York, as first reported by @xJonNYC. As of the fall of 2024, American will start flying 787s out of New York, as the airline is opening a 787 pilot base there.
While there was initially talk of basing just 20 captains and 20 first officers out of the airport (enough for one ultra long haul route), it’s clear that number is being expanded significantly, based on the number of 787 routes now in the schedule, as flagged by Ryan Ewing.
Where will American fly Boeing 787s from New York?
American has just updated its schedule to reflect that five different routes out of New York will be operated by the Boeing 787 as of October 27, 2024 (the start of the winter airline schedule):
- New York (JFK) to Delhi (DEL) will be operated by a Boeing 787-9, replacing a Boeing 777-300ER
- New York (JFK) to Tokyo (HND) will be operated by a Boeing 787-9, replacing a Boeing 777-200ER
- New York (JFK) to Madrid (MAD) will be operated by a Boeing 787-8, replacing a Boeing 777-200ER
- New York (JFK) to Sao Paulo (GRU) will be operated by a Boeing 787-9, replacing a Boeing 777-200ER
- New York (JFK) to Paris (CDG) will be operated by a Boeing 787-8, replacing a Boeing 777-200ER
Across the board, this will have significant implications for American’s premium cabin capacity:
- American’s 787-9s have 30 business class seats, while American’s 787-8s have 20 business class seats
- American’s 777-300ERs have 60 first & business class seats, while American’s 777-200ERs have 37 business class seats
As you can see, premium cabin capacity is decreasing considerably across the board. The Delhi route is going from 60 first & business class seats to 30 business class seats, while the Madrid route is going from 37 business class seats to 20 business class seats.
While all of American’s initial 787 routes out of New York are on “standard” 787s, in the long run I wouldn’t be surprised to see American fly some of its ultra-premium 787s out of New York. These planes will have American’s new business class product, and will have a lot more business class seats. However, delivery of these aircraft is delayed, so it’ll likely be 2025 before any New York routes get these cabins.
In many cases, 787s are probably better suited for New York routes than 777s, as some of these planes are lower capacity, and can also operate ultra long haul flights with better economics.
Bottom line
American will soon start flying 787s out of New York, meaning 777s will no longer be the carrier’s only wide body aircraft based out of the airport. American is adding quite a bit of Dreamliner capacity to New York, and as of the winter season, we’ll see the 787 flying from New York to Delhi, Madrid, Paris, Sao Paulo, and Tokyo.
What do you make of American basing 787s out of New York?
Why is this news? Who the hell wants to be on this casket? It will crash. Boycott criminal Boeing.
Fewer, better seats that AA can sell for cash money instead of wasting them on staff and upgrades. A smart move!
Gosh, if there were a premium market, I'd think it would be NYC. Granted AA has walked away from it slowly over the years, . With the new 787-9 ultra premium, I'd think those would be perfect for JFK. And as far as "wasting them" on staff and upgrades, many staff members are employees (and accept less pay and benefits), precisely because of these upgrades. Our best elite passengers also love those VIP global upgrades,...
Gosh, if there were a premium market, I'd think it would be NYC. Granted AA has walked away from it slowly over the years, . With the new 787-9 ultra premium, I'd think those would be perfect for JFK. And as far as "wasting them" on staff and upgrades, many staff members are employees (and accept less pay and benefits), precisely because of these upgrades. Our best elite passengers also love those VIP global upgrades, and given the changes domestically most exec. plat. elites don't get upgrades very often.
Now the question is, where all those 777’s will go? DFW, MIA or CLT? I have not read any announcements of capacity increases from those airports. I think the 787 works perfectly for NYC, especially once the premium heavy one arrives.
The upcoming J heavy 787-9s are perfect for New York considering they have more (and nicer) premium seating compared to the 77Es. They can ofc do longer range routes too.
The short term hit to capacity, especially
AA doesn't get anywhere near the fares from NYC that DL or UA do; they don't need more premium seats.
The whole reason the 787-9s are coming to AA is because it is the only way to get more range out of the 787
DL gets more revenue from its A220-300s out of NYC than AA gets from its 777-300ERs
Costs, yields and fares will improve significantly with the B787's.
How long will it take AA to stand up the 787 pilot base in NYC? If for a period of time AA relies on deadheading pilots in and out of NYC for 787 flights (in the event they can't staff a NYC base of pilots at the same ratio of 787 flying) then this transition could have material implications for domestic upgrades for elites in and out to JFK/LGA. Since pilots who deadhead get first...
How long will it take AA to stand up the 787 pilot base in NYC? If for a period of time AA relies on deadheading pilots in and out of NYC for 787 flights (in the event they can't staff a NYC base of pilots at the same ratio of 787 flying) then this transition could have material implications for domestic upgrades for elites in and out to JFK/LGA. Since pilots who deadhead get first class seating, and since much domestic capacity in and out of those airpots are 738s - doubt we will see an up gauge to 321s in and out of JFK/LGA to rebalance this impact.
Wonder if AA will ever fly a widebody, such as a 787, on the JFK-LAX flights?
Probably not. Too much range and capacity. A narrow body offers more frequency and better economics. A 787 is designed for long haul intl flying.
Hard to imagine. They are doubling lay-flat capacity with the introduction of the XLR. Unless they ramp up aggregate demand to that of Delta, I don't see it. Separately, the 787 consumes about 13+ percent more fuel per passenger-mile than the XLR.
The XLRs will actually be a decrease in lay-flat capacity. The current 321T has 30 flat bed seats (10F, 20J), while the XLR will have 20 (0F, still 20J).
Prior to the pandemic, AA had several 77Es on the route, in addition to the A32Ts.
Well, everyone says no, but they do fly 787s and 777s between MIA/LAX and DFW/LAX. You can never really be sure with AA, this week I’m flying from DFW/LAX on a 321T. Who saw that one coming?
The only thing that surprises me here is the reduction in capacity of JFK-GRU. I remember hearing in the past from AA management that GRU was one of the most profitable routes in the system for premium traffic. Up to the pandemic JFK-GRU was a 777-300 and I recall having to purchase F for last minute flights because J was full. Since the move to 777-200 J is often sold out weeks in advance. So this one really surprises me.
Remember on the 787s - when AA put in Premium Economy - that replace business class seats, not coach seats. So reduced J with new W - which is an increasing trend among airlines. This will make SWUs harder to use and questionable if earning the extra 50K LP over the 200K for EXP is worth it.
GRU and US-Brazil isn't what it used to be. Traffic and demand has become a lot more seasonal and there is less overall corporate demand.
Speaking of AA's New York-based fleet, it seems no one picked up on Airbus' announcement that its XLR deliveries have slipped SEVERAL MORE MONTHS from the already delayed delivery schedule. It now appears that those destined for AA -- specifically, AA's transcon routes -- will likely not enter service in *meaningful* numbers until mid-2025 at the earliest. So, the ole T-Birds . . . and FF . . . live on a little bit longer.
you or someone else has mentioned this in a couple places.
EASA is taking a very caution approach to Airbus' attempts on both the XLR and the Sunrise A350s for QF in cramming fuel in every imaginable place on the aircraft.
The implication is that the A321Ts will stick around longer and that DL will be the first carrier to launch a premium transcon A321NEO since its aircraft is just a "simple" A321NEO and not the XLR.
I fly JFK-MAD a lot, and while the reduction in premium capacity is a bummer for upgrades and awards, I'm surprised at the total seat reduction—the back of those planes are always full.
AA also replaced their 777-200ER on their MIA-MAD flight to a 787-8 during the offpeak season, and 787-9 during the peak season. Same with their Miami - Barcelona flight. Both of these changes started about 1-2 years ago, and that really surprised me given that both of these flights are normally packed in Business and Economy whenever I have taken them.
I was excited about the 777-200 on JFK HND with 36 seats in J but even with the 789 that is still an overall 20% somewhat increase in business class capacity overall in addition to the 2 flights from LAX and 2 for DFW (NRT/HND). 5 daily flights from the US to TYO now.
It is shocking that AA took this long to put the 787, its most efficient widebody, in the hub where it struggles the most to compete with other carriers.
The loss of business class seats is a reflection of AA's position in those markets and AA's understanding of how well (or poorly) it does in premium cabins when it configured those aircraft.
The delays from Boeing mean AA might or might not get...
It is shocking that AA took this long to put the 787, its most efficient widebody, in the hub where it struggles the most to compete with other carriers.
The loss of business class seats is a reflection of AA's position in those markets and AA's understanding of how well (or poorly) it does in premium cabins when it configured those aircraft.
The delays from Boeing mean AA might or might not get enough 787s to start JFK-DEL along w/ DFW-BNE this year. The latter is part of the QF JV and is longer so will probably be where AA sends its first 2 787s.
It is shocking that AA's decision to fly 787-8s to Spain considering that is competitors fly larger and more premium aircraft.
Who said AA is deploying the new B789 configs to DEL? Website show current config. Plus DEL needs to be on a B789. The payload hits to the B77W to comply with Afghani overflights coming out of DEL are probably substantial.
The 777-300ERs are only on JFK-DEL because it can make the flight because of the low passenger count - only 20 seats more than AA's 787-9s which are a little "chunky" for very long-range flying.
The 777Ws burn enormous amounts of fuel for a sector that long. the 787-9 is going to do AA's 16 plus hour flights because they cut the fuel bill. AA can and will get whatever decent revenue it can get with 250 seats.
Tim, as you know AA only has so many 789s and they have to allocate appropiately.
I wouldn't be so concerned about Spain though considering the JV. There are important and strategic and profitable markets to allocate the 789s to.
side note: those 788s have an embarassingly dense config. Only 20J? Really?
Ah, the tiresome Tim Dunn responses. Vladimir Putin has more humility.
AA and the OWJV are heavily dominant at MAD, and the swap reduces premium capacity on just one of JV's three JFK-MAD flights per day.
and yet DOT data shows that DL and UA get average fares as good as AA to/from Spain.
It is hard to call it a JOINT venture when AA has to keep relying on its partners to do the heavy lifting.
@Tim, when I say JV I mean AA has more capacity to Spain hence it's not really needed as much.
Also DoT international fare data isn't publicly available and illegal to release so nice try
Not gonna fill those business class seats in NYC without a sales team when every other airline on earth flying there has a sales presence in NYC.
This will cause some operational complexity. JFK as an all 777 station for TATL, South America, and Tokyo was based on keeping things simple, not to mention the fact that AA performs maintenance on 777s at JFK. The planes are likely too large for much of what AA flies out of JFK, aside from LHR. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
An order for B787-10's would help.....
Miscellaneous thoughts:
Permanent pilot bases by aircraft type are fluid, but not short term by season. Is AA downguaging because JFK is not hacking it competitively? Or staffing for future 787 deliveries? Where is the 777 flying going? While the 777-300 may be planned for the seat reconfiguration, where is the -200 flying going? As 2024 787 deliveries to AA have been delayed (little gain to 787 total flying time in 2024) it seems likely...
Miscellaneous thoughts:
Permanent pilot bases by aircraft type are fluid, but not short term by season. Is AA downguaging because JFK is not hacking it competitively? Or staffing for future 787 deliveries? Where is the 777 flying going? While the 777-300 may be planned for the seat reconfiguration, where is the -200 flying going? As 2024 787 deliveries to AA have been delayed (little gain to 787 total flying time in 2024) it seems likely 777 time is being swapped for 787 time elsewhere. Or maybe this is longer term planning for the XLR flying going to PHL initially, displacing 787 time to JFK.
BTW, the blogosphere should reach out for a XLR update.
Where are the replaced NYC 777 going to be based out of?
They are going into heavy maintenance and mods, specifically the 77W fleet, which is requiring the E's to be shuffled around more, but some of those too will be going through heavy maintenance, but no mods to the new premium cabins. That's only the 77W.
Isn't the purpose of a blog like this to explain to fliers your views on what this means and why? You are just reporting the fact of the aircraft switch and saying "what do you think about it?" to the reader with no analysis of your own. Why not?
Ben did . . . this time, in an indirect way: (just read again!)
"As you can see, premium cabin capacity is decreasing considerably across the board. The Delhi route is going from 60 first & business class seats to 30 business class seats, while the Madrid route is going from 37 business class seats to 20 business class seats."
;-)