It can be hard to hold airlines accountable when they don’t follow their own policies, and violate the rights of passengers. We often talk about how you could take an airline to small claims court, though most people don’t actually do that. Along those lines, here’s an interesting story that an OMAAT reader has shared with me, as she’s taking American Airlines to small claims court after the airline denied her infant a seat that was paid for, and then refused to provide a refund.
In this post:
American Airlines crew denies infant her own seat
To summarize the basics, Erika was recently flying from Portland (PDX) to Dallas (DFW) to Tallahassee (TLH) with her twin girls, both around 18 months old. She had ticketed one infant to fly in her lap (which costs nothing), and she had purchased a seat for one infant using AAdvantage miles.
She carefully read all the rules — you can only have one lap infant, though you can have a second infant in a separate seat. Per American’s policy, an infant can occupy their own seat without a car seat, as long as they are able to sit on their own:
If your infant will travel in their own seat, you must buy a ticket. The infant must either travel in a safety seat approved by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) or be able to sit upright in their seat without assistance and have their seatbelt securely fastened during taxi, takeoff, landing and whenever the ‘fasten seatbelt’ sign is on.
For those wondering, since she was traveling alone with twins, she thought about this carefully, because traveling with two infants and a car seat would be difficult to juggle. Therefore she checked both of their car seats to the final destination at the start of the trip.
The first flight went off without a hitch, but unfortunately it was a different story on the second flight. Upon boarding the second flight, Erika claims that the flight attendant kept telling her that it was an FAA and American Airlines policy to not allow an infant under the age of two to occupy their own seat without a car seat.
The argument wasn’t that the infant was unable to sit upright and keep her seatbelt fastened, but rather that this was just a blanket violation of regulations.
Eventually the flight attendant threatened to remove Erika and her twins from the plane, given the lack of a solution. Kindly, a woman seated behind Erika proactively offered to hold her daughter for the duration of the flight, which Erika describes as a “godsend.” After all, otherwise she would have been stuck in Dallas, potentially without car seats, etc.
Erika claims the flight attendant then proceeded to harass her for the first half of the flight, but then eventually came by to apologize, when she realized that the policy she was citing simply didn’t exist.
American Airlines now refusing to refund ticket of infant
Following the trip, Erika requested a refund for the ticket of the daughter who wasn’t allowed to occupy her own seat. After all, due to an American flight attendant making up rules, she wasn’t able to occupy the seat she purchased. Lap infants fly free, and the infant who a seat had been purchased for ended up traveling as a lap infant.
However, the airline denied her request. With seemingly no other solution, Erika decided to sue American Airlines in small claims court. This is also where it gets really interesting.
In litigation, American Airlines has taken the position that under its contract of carriage, the airline isn’t actually required to provide passengers with any seat at all. Therefore it’s not a breach of contract to fly a ticketed passenger without a seat, as long as you get them from the origin to destination:
Plaintiff alleges American breached the CoC by refusing to let her infant occupy the seat she had purchased. The infant, however, had a ticket that required American to transport her from Portland, Oregon, to a final destination of Tallahassee, Florida. While Plaintiff alleges that there was a dispute about where and how the infant was to sit, Plaintiff does not dispute that the infant in fact flew safely from Portland, Oregon, to Tallahassee, Florida.
Plaintiff offers no facts to support any language within the CoC supporting her claim for breach of contract by American, and there is nothing in the governing contract that requires American to do anything beyond transport a passenger from one place to another on the date and time of the ticket. Even the seat assignment of a passenger is not guaranteed under the contract.
American also doubles down in claiming that the flight attendant could deny boarding to the infant at their sole discretion. American basically seems to suggest that the flight attendant not knowing the rules was a perfectly fine reason to deny boarding:
Conversely, the contract states that American may refuse to transport a passenger if the passenger’s “physical or mental condition is such that in American’s sole opinion” the passenger is rendered or likely to be rendered incapable of…complying with safety instructions without the assistance of an attendant. Plaintiff alleges that American “question[ed] whether [her] seating configuration was safe for [her] children.” Had the flight attendant concluded in its sole opinion that the infant was not capable of complying with the safety instructions as outlined in the contract that required the infant to remain sitting up and with its seatbelt fastened for take off, landing, and anytime the ‘fasten seat belt’ sign was on, she would have been doing so consistent with the terms of the contract.
Again, there’s no indication that the flight attendant determined that Erika’s daughter wasn’t capable of sitting on her own, but rather she just misunderstood the policy in general.
There’s a trial date set for October. Erika has the contact information for the two women who were seated behind her and who are happy to testify on her behalf at the trial, while American’s only defense is a flight attendant who filed a report four days after the flight.
My take on this lawsuit
I imagine that this situation must have been distressing for Erika. It’s hard enough to travel alone with two infants, and in this case she did everything she could in advance to make sure the trip would go as smoothly as possible. She then encountered a flight attendant who made up her own rules, and if it weren’t for the generosity of someone else on the plane, she would have been denied boarding, and would have been stuck in Dallas with two infants.
We often hear stories of airline employees making up their own rules, and it can be tough to figure out how to hold airlines accountable in these situations. So while I’m not usually a fan of how litigious the United States is, unfortunately this is often the only way to hold companies accountable and lead to change. She’s just taking this to small claims court, so it’s not like she’s trying to sue for a million dollars.
I do find American’s defense here pretty shocking and weak. The airline claims that the contract of carriage doesn’t actually promise you a seat, but just promises to get you from your origin to the destination. Furthermore, the airline seems to argue that seat assignments being subject to change could also mean that you don’t get a seat at all, and American still isn’t violating its obligations.
So I guess we should be grateful that the FAA requires airlines to seat passengers two or older, or else American Airlines flights would be standing room only.
Bottom line
An American Airlines flight attendant denied a traveler’s infant the seat that had been purchased, based on her misunderstand of American Airlines and FAA policies. Another traveler generously ended up holding the infant in her arms for the duration of the flight.
The traveler tried to get a refund due to the infant being denied her seat, but American refused. The traveler is now suing, and American’s defense is that the airline doesn’t actually promise those who purchase tickets a seat, as long as they’re transported from their origin to destination.
What do you make of this American Airlines incident?
They should have given her a refund.
AA forced to refund full ticket cost: https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/arena/finance/mother-of-twins-wins-lawsuit-over-american-airlines-regarding-treatment/article_bfc7861b-3a96-5bfd-bc82-377263a2029b.html
AA made a mistake, they should refund her childs ticket, and its the right thing to do.
The airlines industry in the US, is horrible. The airlines staffs treat passenger like a piece of whatever. While the passengers are the one who are paying the salaries. Shame on them.
wow. Just wow. When AA just OuT OF COURTESY could have offered a refund. Surely the cost of negative publicity, the outrage at the RESPONSE from AA ( yes, the FA made a mistake. AND AA COMPOUNDED THAT MISTAKE IN JUDGEMENT ) IS SO MUCH MORE THAN THE COST OF A TICKET. SHAME shame shame AA.
They should refund the ticket, pay all lawyer fees and court costs and pay punitive damages.
American Airlines should refund the ticket. The flight attendant should be reprimanded.
Anything American Airlines stinks!! The least courteous airlines
AA should refund cost of ticket.
The stance the flight attendant had was ridiculous & rude considering her lack of knowledge & her treatment to the Mom l. The airlines stance is worse considering they know they were wrong & would rather take advantage of a passenger. It would be better for AA to pony up to their mistake in the public’s eye & right this wrong! It is sickening they would go to these depths to avoid paying the Mom...
The stance the flight attendant had was ridiculous & rude considering her lack of knowledge & her treatment to the Mom l. The airlines stance is worse considering they know they were wrong & would rather take advantage of a passenger. It would be better for AA to pony up to their mistake in the public’s eye & right this wrong! It is sickening they would go to these depths to avoid paying the Mom that child’s ticket which clearly she paid for & was denied this takes the cake & I pray the court sees that. Mom deserves ticket price back along with compensation for all that transpired.
So what's new with the airlines!!
If people actually read the contracts of all the companies they deal with, they might just start rioting in the streets. I agree with Dan... Stop flying and see what happens. Money talks
People need to stop flying for a week see what they do
So it’s Ok for a company to do a bait and switch on their website? That could open AA to a large class action lawsuit…… No company or person should be able to change the rules after payment.
Sorry, but that is par for the course with AA; they are great at taking money and lousy at being an airline. I'm sorry, but no one could *pay me* enough to fly them.
So by AA logic, they could just transport you in the cargo hold with the pets as long as there was oxygen and heat and you got there “safely.” What an incredibly stupid argument. AA should just have refunded the ticket and thrown in a few miles for good measure. As an attorney, I know this litigation will end up costing them way more than that in legal fees and bad PR.
American in my book has never been a good airline. I have over 2 million miles in the air and every time I flew I had issues mostly my luggage not there when I arrived at my destination. Gave up using them unless I had absolutely no choice but to. Crappy airline
Evidently American Airlines doesn't require its employees to follow the their own rules. That's a bit scary if that includes Pilots not having to follow rules.
This is why I always try to fly Delta. Although they are far from perfect, they have always been amazingly helpful and accommodating whenever I've had any travel issues. Recently they even refunded all of the points I used to buy a ticket for my son after he had to abandon his flight halfway and return home due to a family emergency. Not just the points for the unused portion of the ticket, all of them. I couldn't believe it!
Airline will lose this case provided it is heard by a jury. Airline may be able to force plaintiff to arbitration in a stacked deck process favoring airline. This is incredibly stupid bad business. This negative PR has cost the airline 1000X what an amicable refund would have.
This is ridiculous and American Airlines has lots of ignorant issues and unprofessional workers and especially flight attendants. I am a witness to the poor customer service offered by this Airlines. Hire better intelligent people and less people with no lack of job knowledge. Give the woman her money back and a free flight.
I work for a major airline and in our CoC and website states that if you are traveling with an infant under the age of 2 that it is required that they are either held or in an FAA approved car seat (though the car seat is the safest mode for an infant). If the child was not in a carseat then they would be denied boarding, unless they can get the carseat from the belly of the plane, and if denied then they would get an immediate refund.
There is Federal Aviation Regulation (it is federal law) that any child under 2 years old must be held by and adult during TTL or in a car seat. Once in the air the child can occupy the purchased seat. It does not matter what airline policy is, this is absolutely a law and can not be negotiated. The first flight, the airline, crew, and passenger broke the law and are subject to a fine....
There is Federal Aviation Regulation (it is federal law) that any child under 2 years old must be held by and adult during TTL or in a car seat. Once in the air the child can occupy the purchased seat. It does not matter what airline policy is, this is absolutely a law and can not be negotiated. The first flight, the airline, crew, and passenger broke the law and are subject to a fine. This passenger should absolutely not take this to court, she is opening herself up to a much larger fine than the cost of the ticket. The blogger here claims authority on all things airlines, but encouraging her to go to court is horrible advice. The flight attendant did the right thing.
You’re confused, the FAA strongly recommends using a car seat for children under the age of 2, it is not a FAA regulation or a law.
What type of Aircraft was it or what seats were they becUse certain aircrafts especially regional ones don't allow lP children in certain seats hence she having two kids won't work.
I need to know what the circumstances were before passing judgment. I meant just going to believe what the passenger says because everyone is an opportunist and looking for a paycheck
Thank you for this revealing article. As a lifetime flier on both AA and UA, I favor neither. As airline consumers, we must all strive to regularly remind the industry that customer service still matters and that an arrogant corporate culture doesn’t go unnoticed or unpunished.
I will be conveying this message later today via email to AA executive offices with a reminder that while AA may gain an inconsequential financial win in this dispute,...
Thank you for this revealing article. As a lifetime flier on both AA and UA, I favor neither. As airline consumers, we must all strive to regularly remind the industry that customer service still matters and that an arrogant corporate culture doesn’t go unnoticed or unpunished.
I will be conveying this message later today via email to AA executive offices with a reminder that while AA may gain an inconsequential financial win in this dispute, they have already incurred a sizable PR loss.
The airline is right
As a loyal American Airlines customer, I am incredibly disappointed in their response. The flight attendant was clearly wrong and caused distress of a patron, where is the allegiance to good customer service. If the flight attendant could apologize, American Airlines should follow suit and reimburse the passenger accordingly.
As a Travel Advisor, I want a worry-free experience for my clients and am inclined to not suggest AA as a first choice. I have read about too many negative incidences w AA
As a well educated person, who travels both domestically and international, I find myself speechless. One of the jobs a flight attendant has is to assist in keeping travelers calm. Making up rules and harassing passengers can easily incite anger and increase the chances of hostility on a plane. Furthermore AA is a multimillion dollar company. The fact that they can't toss a few hundred dollars to a mom who stayed calm in the presence...
As a well educated person, who travels both domestically and international, I find myself speechless. One of the jobs a flight attendant has is to assist in keeping travelers calm. Making up rules and harassing passengers can easily incite anger and increase the chances of hostility on a plane. Furthermore AA is a multimillion dollar company. The fact that they can't toss a few hundred dollars to a mom who stayed calm in the presence of an ignorant flight attendant boggles the mind! Cheers to the passengers who helped out in a pinch! I will think twice before flying with AA again.
Another example of a big corporation having poor customer service and making rules/policies overly complicated so people won't even bother to right a wrong. This definitely sours my opinion of AA.
Here is the bottom line: airlines do whatever they want because there are no regulations, there is demand, and they want to make more money--their obligation to stockholders. So, there are only two choices: do not fly, use alternative ways, and show them capitalism 101. (Remind them that we (taxpayers) paid subsidies during the crises). The other choice is to ask the government to regulate their services.
Our family only flies Southwest Airlines! SWA always treats us as family! Cheers!
American's doing this - in small claims court? OMG, American - pay the lady her $5,000 or however much the judgment would be and wash your dirty hands of the matter. Even if it's in-house counsel, defending this will cost more than $5K. And I'd hope FAA would be very curious to see American's "alternate" plan to get pax from Point A to Point B if it's not reasonably expected to be via a seat...
American's doing this - in small claims court? OMG, American - pay the lady her $5,000 or however much the judgment would be and wash your dirty hands of the matter. Even if it's in-house counsel, defending this will cost more than $5K. And I'd hope FAA would be very curious to see American's "alternate" plan to get pax from Point A to Point B if it's not reasonably expected to be via a seat with functioning restraint device(s) on board the aircraft. I'd even consider suing the misinformed FA erroneously citing non-existent regulatory requirements, alleging that she is acting in contravention of her training and outside the scope of her duties.
Reminds me of an overnight flight with AA 20 years ago. As Fran (I still remember her name) served breakfast I politely said 'Good morning.' The rant I received began with, 'Is it? I was meant to be retired but we took a pay cut and I have to do this horrible job for 3 more years now before I can retire!'
Of many airlines in my travels, American Airlines are by far the worst airline I have ever flown with.
American's had employee morale issues for years and years. About 50 people and I once witnessed a shouting match between a gate agent and a flight attendant at DFW because the gate agent had the audacity to ask the FA for her company ID before opening the jetway - which is a TSA requirement, btw. To her credit, the gate agent stood her ground and only opened the door AFTER the flight attendant produced the required ID.
Interesting story. The only part the airline miss handled was not providing a refund. The flight attendant was absolutely correct in requiring the infant to be seated in the car seat if nobody’s holding him or her. I can’t believe this is even a matter for debate. We traveled with our kids when they were little on numerous occasions, and we always brought a car seat on board, and the airlines were very accommodating with...
Interesting story. The only part the airline miss handled was not providing a refund. The flight attendant was absolutely correct in requiring the infant to be seated in the car seat if nobody’s holding him or her. I can’t believe this is even a matter for debate. We traveled with our kids when they were little on numerous occasions, and we always brought a car seat on board, and the airlines were very accommodating with them. They were also accommodating if we wanted to check in at the gate. But eight kids at age and size cannot sit in the seat safely. So, I disagree with the assertion that this woman passenger did everything right. She needed to bring at least one car seat on board which would not have been a big deal. Frankly, she should’ve brought two in case there was an open seat. You could’ve put the second baby in there as well. It’s a great way to travel for kids that age. Then if there are no open seats for the second car seat, the gate agents will gladly stole it in the belly and give it back at the destinations.
Regardless, I can’t believe the airlines actually arguing that she’s not out a refund. That’s ridiculous, especially since the flight attendant did not let her use the seat that she paid for… again, Even though that was absolutely the right move by the flight attendant from a safety perspective
you CAN NOT file small claim, because its not their jurisdiction. only regular complaint with cause of action "breach of contract" to superior court if flight was inside country or district court if international flight. see Montreal convention. even for 1$ you can't sue in small claim court...
From Article 1 of the Montreal Convention, "Scope of Application":
"This Convention applies to all ***international carriage of persons***, baggage or cargo performed
by aircraft for reward." (My emphasis)
As this was an entirely domestic itinerary, the Montreal Convention does not apply.
US small claims courts hear breach of contract cases with great frequency. The court with jurisdiction might be an issue (point of itinerary origin, connection, or destination, the airline's...
From Article 1 of the Montreal Convention, "Scope of Application":
"This Convention applies to all ***international carriage of persons***, baggage or cargo performed
by aircraft for reward." (My emphasis)
As this was an entirely domestic itinerary, the Montreal Convention does not apply.
US small claims courts hear breach of contract cases with great frequency. The court with jurisdiction might be an issue (point of itinerary origin, connection, or destination, the airline's corporate offices, the passenger's legal residence, etc.) As long as the defendant does not object to the jurisdiction of the plaintiff's filing and the judge exerts that jurisdiction, the case can be heard by that court.
American Airlines should be hiding their faces in shame. What a bunch of morons! And bless the lady who held the seatless baby for the rest of the journey. She gets a medal from me!
I would not be surprised if American lost a lot of business over this. I would not trust them to keep any contracts, afyer reading this.
Momma, give them holy heckaroonies in court, okay? They deserve it. You did nothing wrong.
After working for the airline that became as for over 30 yrs. I have personally witnessed f/A's argue with passengers and other airline personnel about rules and regulations. They often wrong or quoting old out of date rules. They are required to carry their ops manual with them but rarely check to ensure they are correct. They often think they own the aircraft.
This article fails to state what type of aircraft this family was traveling on. I believe the CR Jay’s infants are only allowed to sit on one side of the aircraft which houses the extra oxygen mask. So it is against regulations to have more than one infant on the right side of the aircraft because there’s not enough oxygen mask which would pose the problem that this family ran into, the infants would have...
This article fails to state what type of aircraft this family was traveling on. I believe the CR Jay’s infants are only allowed to sit on one side of the aircraft which houses the extra oxygen mask. So it is against regulations to have more than one infant on the right side of the aircraft because there’s not enough oxygen mask which would pose the problem that this family ran into, the infants would have to be in two separate rows. This would be the case with or without the ticketed infant.
I knew the fasten seatbelt sign was total b.s.! How can they make you fasten your seatbelt if they don't have to give you a seat! Lawyers are such losers, always trying to convince the world that the sky is pink...
I stopped flying AA 23 years ago. This reminds me why.
shame on American Airlines
Have not flown American in 20 years because they served nuts/peanuts despite the concern for life threatening allergies. For all I know they don't serve them now - but they lost 5 passengers for 20 years (and we fly multiple times a year). My kids are grown now but this is a reminder of how UN consumer friendly American is and how they treat families with children.
The fact that they would even consider...
Have not flown American in 20 years because they served nuts/peanuts despite the concern for life threatening allergies. For all I know they don't serve them now - but they lost 5 passengers for 20 years (and we fly multiple times a year). My kids are grown now but this is a reminder of how UN consumer friendly American is and how they treat families with children.
The fact that they would even consider going to court on this is pathetic. I hope the woman and her kids get their refund, court fees and many free flights in the future.
As a twin mother, I find this appalling. Instead of doubling down, American Airlines should be apologizing for the ignorance of the flight attendant who represents AA, who should have followed up on the rule before turning this into a scene. This mother did her homework and didn’t get what she paid for—a seat for her child. Thank God for the benevolent individual who held the second twin when American Airlines was being ridiculous and...
As a twin mother, I find this appalling. Instead of doubling down, American Airlines should be apologizing for the ignorance of the flight attendant who represents AA, who should have followed up on the rule before turning this into a scene. This mother did her homework and didn’t get what she paid for—a seat for her child. Thank God for the benevolent individual who held the second twin when American Airlines was being ridiculous and discriminatory. Train your flight attendants on your own policies, AA! You owe this woman an apology, a refund, and a free future fight for the hassle!
Won't ever be flying American airlines.
Bad publicity for AA. A simple solution that would have won the publics praise was to apologize, refund money and retrain attendant on rules.
Amen. There’s a lot to be said for positive publicity.
“You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” Or in this case, you make more money when you’re good to people.
This is eye opening, I will Now Never Pay to fly on AA knowing that I may Not get to sit down on my Flight:((
So, instead of giving her points back (let’s say 50,000) they would rather have to deal with a lawsuit and an article like this. Who’s the fool running this company?
Thanks for letting me know never to fly American since my seat can't be guaranteed and they make flying difficult for parents and children.
American Airlines should be ashamed of themselves. I will never fly with them again !
At the least, they should apologize and refund the price of ticket.
I NEVER fly American . Nor will I ever
American Airlines refused to refund mine and my daughters cost of tickets after THEY cancelled our flight!! We were already aboard the plane and they made us all get off. We had to purchase tickets through another airline to reach our destination. And because we didn't take off...they canceled our returning flights as well. I did get my money back weeks later after I harassed them for hours on a "chat" line and reported them...
American Airlines refused to refund mine and my daughters cost of tickets after THEY cancelled our flight!! We were already aboard the plane and they made us all get off. We had to purchase tickets through another airline to reach our destination. And because we didn't take off...they canceled our returning flights as well. I did get my money back weeks later after I harassed them for hours on a "chat" line and reported them to the DOT. I will NEVER fly AA again. They're crooks!
American Airlines states that under the contract a flier is not guaranteed a seat.
I remember that next time we travel. Will not use American Airlines.
Further they did not let the passenger use the seat she paid for her child. THEY SHOULD JUST ADMIT THE FLIGHT ATTENDANT GOT WRONG AND REFUND HER TICKET.
HOW STUPID COULD THEY BE IT WILL COST MORE TO PAY THEIR DEFENSE LAWYERS. WITH A RIDICULOUS DEFENSE OF...
American Airlines states that under the contract a flier is not guaranteed a seat.
I remember that next time we travel. Will not use American Airlines.
Further they did not let the passenger use the seat she paid for her child. THEY SHOULD JUST ADMIT THE FLIGHT ATTENDANT GOT WRONG AND REFUND HER TICKET.
HOW STUPID COULD THEY BE IT WILL COST MORE TO PAY THEIR DEFENSE LAWYERS. WITH A RIDICULOUS DEFENSE OF NO SEAT GUARANTEED.
NO TO MENTION THE BAD PRESS. AND LOSS OF BUSINESS FROM PEOPLE LIKE ME.
My guess is that they fighting for something bigger … so they can move to those “seats” that will let stack passengers like sardines in the future.
I hope she wins!! I can't stand American Airline. They deserve to go out of business. They think they can just bully everyone when ever they want!! I'm sharing this story with everyone I know.
Someone from American needs to read these comments. They're all in support of the customer. This is HORRIBLE publicity! They're lucky she isn't suing for emotional distress of both her AND her infant. That baby didn't know the stranger whose lap she was forced to sit in! That's traumatic for a baby! The kind stranger DID save the day, even though the baby didn't know it. If I were that mother, I'd sue for everything...
Someone from American needs to read these comments. They're all in support of the customer. This is HORRIBLE publicity! They're lucky she isn't suing for emotional distress of both her AND her infant. That baby didn't know the stranger whose lap she was forced to sit in! That's traumatic for a baby! The kind stranger DID save the day, even though the baby didn't know it. If I were that mother, I'd sue for everything now on principle. AA has now lost hundreds, maybe thousands, of customers because they won't admit their employee messed up & refund a measly $400! Please forward this so more can see how American treats their customers, even solo moms with 2 babies!!!
Airlines require seat belts to be worn at various times. If there are no guarantees of a seat, only transporting, then how can the passenger be seat-belted as required. By laws?
I'll bet the contract of carriage doesn't require American to provide a seat belt either!
Ridiculous. So instead of garnering some goodwill and refunding a couple hundred dollars (which is NOTHING for AA), they're willing to have yet another PR nightmare. I stopped flying them years ago.
I won't be flying American any more
Please stop stating that the flight attendant was making up rules. She made a mistake. She didn’t deliberately make up information. Other than this inflammatory take, I’m in complete support of the traveler.
So next time I fly...I am just taking a 1st class seat and claim that nobody really has a seat and 1st come 1st serve...it's in the contract
it's strange that AA fights back for $400 refund. They refund even bigger amount for all kinds of reasons passengers claim.
Let's assume AA is in the right from the perspective of law which could be ridiculous. However, AA will lose more than 400 from legal fee. From the perspective of common people and common sense, what AA did and does is non sense. They lose more than $400....by doing this.
Unless AA is...
it's strange that AA fights back for $400 refund. They refund even bigger amount for all kinds of reasons passengers claim.
Let's assume AA is in the right from the perspective of law which could be ridiculous. However, AA will lose more than 400 from legal fee. From the perspective of common people and common sense, what AA did and does is non sense. They lose more than $400....by doing this.
Unless AA is crazy, so I don't understand this story at all. I hope there is not any more facts that's not in this story.
They don't want this kind of precedent to be established, is the only thing I can imagine is the reason
14 CFR 121.311 has all of the information. It looks like there is some language saying kids under two fly without a ticket. But if they have a ticket they get a seat.
The code states everyone is required to be seated and seat belted in for take off and landing. It's up to a $10k fine if you refuse. Seems like AA is in violation if they are taking on passengers without seats.
...14 CFR 121.311 has all of the information. It looks like there is some language saying kids under two fly without a ticket. But if they have a ticket they get a seat.
The code states everyone is required to be seated and seat belted in for take off and landing. It's up to a $10k fine if you refuse. Seems like AA is in violation if they are taking on passengers without seats.
Not a lawyer but I would go for the distress of being required to have a complete stranger hold my kid for the duration of the flight. Imaging if the plane needed to be evacuated? Who's with my kid and are they treating them like there own...or just leaving them...
Due to this event we will no longer fly American.
Many comments in this discussion are lame. AA is in the right here, so long the infant can sit safely inside cargo or on the wing, what's the fuss? Finally, it's solely crew discretion to transport the pax inside or outside the cabin.
I was an American Airlines Flight Attendant but better formally trained by TWA . There is no way to transport anyone properly without a seat so the statement claiming that the airlines only obligation is to transport you from point A to B is erroneous. Safety is the most important factor in every flight and a seat is required even if Mom's seated lap. I'm ashamed for these ignorant employees and greedy companies.
Agree! As a former airline employee we would never have treated our valued customers this way!
All airlines are required to provide a seat for every passenger, else why would passengers be required to obey the seat belt sign, if they don’t have a seat, and, therefore, no seat belt! This is absurd on the part of AA, and not sure why they wouldn’t just refund the price of the seat? Bad PR costs money! Refunding the cost of one seat basically costs nothing. I do hope that the F/A who...
All airlines are required to provide a seat for every passenger, else why would passengers be required to obey the seat belt sign, if they don’t have a seat, and, therefore, no seat belt! This is absurd on the part of AA, and not sure why they wouldn’t just refund the price of the seat? Bad PR costs money! Refunding the cost of one seat basically costs nothing. I do hope that the F/A who made up her own rules is, at the very least reprimanded, and perhaps fired. Personally, I would have added her to the lawsuit! As a former F/A, I was trained on this type of regulation, and given annual current training on them, as well. This F/A does not deserve to keep her job…
It's difficult to understand how an airline, AA, could be so blatently stupid and it's employees so totally incompetent.
I rarely, if ever, fly AA and I won't be flying them anytime soon. I have to say that I am not surprised at what occurred. The airlines, like a number of other companies, hire totally clueless people and then they don't train them to improve their ignorance.
Way to go AA. Hopefully, your...
It's difficult to understand how an airline, AA, could be so blatently stupid and it's employees so totally incompetent.
I rarely, if ever, fly AA and I won't be flying them anytime soon. I have to say that I am not surprised at what occurred. The airlines, like a number of other companies, hire totally clueless people and then they don't train them to improve their ignorance.
Way to go AA. Hopefully, your airline is on its way out. It couldn't happen to a better company.
I am curious how the airline proposes they will get a passenger to their destination if not in a seat, since I'm guessing they also have a policy that a passenger may not be boarded if there is not a seat for them.
Silly comments. "Disgisted", "Egregious", blah, blah, blah. Said flight attendant probably read the manual or contacted a supervisor. With today's communication it's easy to connect with the rules. As far as harassing for the first part of the flight? Probably not.
The airline should refund the customer and apologize.this will go viral .is there only one flight attendant?
No one corrected this woman. If I am the passenger I will not only sue for not refunding but also sue the airline for emotional distress
Most of the attendant now are not train on how important customer services and professionalism.
American is a marketing firm that flies planes. I stop flying American years ago. There’re tickets are cheaper than Deltas. But I’ve been flying Delta now for going on 5 years now. Pleasant and consistent.
As à wall street lawyer and a twin myself, I am disgusted by their actions. The flight attendant should be fired, her supervisors reprimanded- and the victim should get punitive damages so that AA won’t do this again. Flight attendants are a lot like cops… they want to show they have so much power, because in real life, they have none!
This is just another example of why I NEVER fly American Airlines!
Just another data point to avoid traveling AA. Terrible airline - planes, personnel, on time departure/arrival - you name it, they can fail at it.
This makes me not want to fly. I’m going to be following. But I definitely don’t see myself buying a flight from
AA. They’ve been in the news a lot lately.
Quite frankly, there ARE required to provide a seat, not only by FAA regulations but their OWN admitted pattern and practice. For every take off, the pilot and/or flight attendants make an announcement that every passenger must be seated with seat belts on and teay tables up for the plane to take off. Hence, they DO require every passenger to be in a seat as part of their contract to transport someone from point A to the purchased destination.
Come on AA should have refunded the lady for the seat. It would have been done. But no…… you chose not to do the right thing; now is it worth it? Maybe you need a “yearly”
Overview of your seating rules with your stewardesses and pilots clarity.
Frankly, American airlines is getting out of hand. Every day there are new complaints about them. Someone needs to take them down!
The lack of compassion and outright rudeness of some of the AA staff is why I stopped flying AA. I have mid-level status with other airlines and am 50K away from million miler status with AA; I won't be going for MM status with AA. This is because, overall, I found my flights on AA were only about 50% enjoyable. The other 50% involved over-zealous FA's like this one or gate staff who were rude...
The lack of compassion and outright rudeness of some of the AA staff is why I stopped flying AA. I have mid-level status with other airlines and am 50K away from million miler status with AA; I won't be going for MM status with AA. This is because, overall, I found my flights on AA were only about 50% enjoyable. The other 50% involved over-zealous FA's like this one or gate staff who were rude or AA canceled flights when the weather was fine and other airlines were flying. AA, you are going to have improve.
So pathetic by my former employer. Embarrassingly bad PR but what else would you expect from America West management.
American Airlines at the least owes her the refund of the seat that she purchased but was not allowed to use. Instead she had to have a stranger hold her child in order to avoid the tenuous circumstance of being alone at an airport with two infants. Although grateful for the kindness of the stranger holding her child, there is no way that a mother would be wholly comfortable with this. This mother was careful...
American Airlines at the least owes her the refund of the seat that she purchased but was not allowed to use. Instead she had to have a stranger hold her child in order to avoid the tenuous circumstance of being alone at an airport with two infants. Although grateful for the kindness of the stranger holding her child, there is no way that a mother would be wholly comfortable with this. This mother was careful to follow the rules. AA cause her emotional distress. They are lucky she isn't suing for that. They should refund her plus offer free airfare for a future trip.
As a retired travel agent, I know this is true. Domestic carriers do not promise you a seat that you have paid for. It's horrible and unfortunately they can do this along with overbooking flights. I don't know answers, but flying has become so strange. I'm glad I'm not working anymore!!
If they expect to sit and wear a seatbelt, then a seat is expected.
This sort of thing is why we started calling the company American't. They're ridiculous. My sister could write a novel about her travels. It would read like Planes, Trains, Automobiles, & Buses because she's taken ALL OF THE ABOVE to finally get where she was going trying to travel American't
If the don't promise you a seat, how is it that you need to purchase a seat when ticket is purchased?
Airlines should employ a Subject Matter Expert unit that provides consistency and continuity for airline employees and customers across the board.
When a situation arises, the airline calls the SME unit with customer to find out what is in the guidance manual. Everyone gets the same answers and each situation is documented and numbered for follow up. Refunds can be applied according to findings or sitiations that are tracked.
There is no reason...
Airlines should employ a Subject Matter Expert unit that provides consistency and continuity for airline employees and customers across the board.
When a situation arises, the airline calls the SME unit with customer to find out what is in the guidance manual. Everyone gets the same answers and each situation is documented and numbered for follow up. Refunds can be applied according to findings or sitiations that are tracked.
There is no reason for people to have to rely on confusing rules that each flight attendant interprets according to their own perception of things when technology can provide that consistency and alleviate the resposibility from the people working on tge front lines. They should know and understand guidance, but perception is everything. Airlines need consistency.
I am sure American Airlines’ legal expenses far exceed the costs of the child’s ticket. Unless this is an issue the airlines faces often or is related to an issue that has far reaching ramifications for the airlines, this is by far one of the most unintelligent responses I could imagine. Too, too, costly all around- - adverse publicity, attorney fees and court costs, and ill will.
Sadly this it what happens when passengers are at their mercy. The airlines did not let the passenger use the purchased seat . Therefore a refund is the correct call here. Shame on them. Glad to say I don’t fly AA.
This is exactly what happens when flight attendans mistreat a customer, they destroy the image of the airline. They should give back the money 3X and apologize to the mother. Flight attendants are angry, disconected, and tired, They should get another job or leave their problems at home.
Logic or No logic, the cost of bad publicity is probably magnitudes more than the cost of the refund.
FYI, I've only flown American twice in my life, many, many, years ago. Both were miserable, unhappy experiences. I haven't flown them since.
The experiences were bad enough that no matter how cheap their tickets are, I won't fly them.
What's worse is that the reason I won't fly them is that my experiences told...
Logic or No logic, the cost of bad publicity is probably magnitudes more than the cost of the refund.
FYI, I've only flown American twice in my life, many, many, years ago. Both were miserable, unhappy experiences. I haven't flown them since.
The experiences were bad enough that no matter how cheap their tickets are, I won't fly them.
What's worse is that the reason I won't fly them is that my experiences told me the employees simply don't care. But I actually feel sorry for the employees because I think the company environment creates that "I don't care" attitude.
If AA wouldn't give her her money back, they should have at least had the decency to give her the monetary amount as a credit for her next flight. These airlines are so nasty today and have no reason to show customer sevice. Good for this lady to stand up to them!
FA needs recurrent testing. Put a uniform and wings on some people, and they suddenly control your life. FA are there for safety and also as ambassadors of the airline and the country they are citizen of. Stop flying American. Infant seated and strapped in is fine. Its parents choice to do this. Not the opinion of a FA.
By their argument they can begin selling Standing Room Only tickets. The plaintiff will need to resort to FAA and NTSB regulations, in addition to the ticket contract.
Does this mean that, rather than bumping passengers from an overbooked flight, the last to board could be given a place to stand?
That is accurate, yes. Most airlines have enough sense to provide a refund when they do that. That they are willing to fight it out in this case $400 is sheer absurdity.
I have several questions for American Airlines...
1. Why do you "bump" passengers from there flights when you overbook if you don't believe you have to give them a seat at all?
2. Why is 1st class, business class, and economy priced differently if seats are a moot point and not guaranteed?
3. Where do you think your liability falls when you deny a passenger a seat and they hurt themselves in a crash or turbulence because they had no seat belts?
Had an incident similar on AA a few years back. Myself, my wife, and my son (just over 1 yo at the time) were flying home from visiting family in Brazil. We had purchased a ticket/seat for our son and for the majority of the trip we had him in a car seat in his purchased seat. For the last leg of our journey home we decided to gate check the car seat and hold...
Had an incident similar on AA a few years back. Myself, my wife, and my son (just over 1 yo at the time) were flying home from visiting family in Brazil. We had purchased a ticket/seat for our son and for the majority of the trip we had him in a car seat in his purchased seat. For the last leg of our journey home we decided to gate check the car seat and hold him for the short flight. Upon boarding, the flight attendants counted passengers and were off by 1 because we were holding our son. They made a big deal over the fact he wasn’t in his seat and told us we had to sit him in his seat. We kindly refused because he couldn’t sit in a seat by himself and said we’d gladly do that if they’d get his car seat from beneath the plane. They refused. The captain had to get involved and we were allowed to fly while holding him after some back and forth. The passengers around us were appalled at how the FAs handled the situation. To this day I don’t understand the issue…
18 months is not an "infant". That's a toddler. Infants are small babies less than 3 months old who can't crawl yet.
It's bizarre tha AA says they're not required to provide seating!!!
The FAA and NTSB would have an opinion on that.
Common sense prevails here. If I don't need a seat, how can I comply when the pilot turns on the seatbelt sign?
If the AA's policy is to have sole discretion over a passengers physical and mental ability to comply with out assistance of the stewardess, then I can see a problem with them denying boarding to anyone with a disability! AA's should shut up and pay before they open a can of worms that they wanted to keep a lid on!
I hope the court demands that AA refund all Erika’s full fare for all seats for the entire trip AND compensate the passenger who volunteered to carry the child on her lap. It’s nice to see good deeds happening from that wonderful woman.
Just one more of MANY reasons I refuse to fly American Airlines. I see horrible experiences like this all the time in regards to AA.
I constantly see poor customer service from American airlines. This starts at the gate when they way overbook. To online where you are just cattle to the attendant.
I would sue American Airlines for using fictitious conveyence of language in their contacts and demand they refund all fares paid.
The stories I hear about American Airlines and their behavior towards their passengers I would never fly them
I get American Airline's policy about not being guaranteed a seat; however, this more than likely should be based upon a situation where the flight is overbooked.
This passenger was denied a seat due to the ignorance of the airline's employee... A frontline employee, at that... Whose primary job is to be able to assist and help the passengers experience an enjoyable travel as much as possible- not make a mom, that is flying...
I get American Airline's policy about not being guaranteed a seat; however, this more than likely should be based upon a situation where the flight is overbooked.
This passenger was denied a seat due to the ignorance of the airline's employee... A frontline employee, at that... Whose primary job is to be able to assist and help the passengers experience an enjoyable travel as much as possible- not make a mom, that is flying on a flight with two toddlers by herself, travel turn into the flight from hell, which is what I imagined is exactly what the flight attendant did. Not only should this billion dollar company stop being petty, be the bigger party, go high and show appreciation for this passenger even choosing their service and give the refund, they should also comp her for the disservice as well, and send that flight attendant through some kind knowledged base retraining.
It seems, after covid, customer service has taken a serious nose dive.
In 1980, I flew from Hawaii to the West Coast to O'Hara to Harrisburg, alone with a 2 yo and a 4 month old. Each airline was extremely helpful, even hooking up a bassinet for my infant son, and a stewardess picking up my two yo and running through O'Hara so I wouldn't miss my connecting flight at the other end of the airport. Gone are the days, and AA and other airlines should be...
In 1980, I flew from Hawaii to the West Coast to O'Hara to Harrisburg, alone with a 2 yo and a 4 month old. Each airline was extremely helpful, even hooking up a bassinet for my infant son, and a stewardess picking up my two yo and running through O'Hara so I wouldn't miss my connecting flight at the other end of the airport. Gone are the days, and AA and other airlines should be ashamed of their corporate greed. I hope some judge sees fit to give her more than she's asking for since there was an empty paid-for seat somewhere on that plane which was denied to the purchaser through the negligence and stupidity of one of their employees.
And what's this nonsense these days over seat assignments. They once showed a chart of available seats. You chose one or two together, if possible, and they became yours, no longer showing as available. First come, first serve.
Two Seinfeld episodes have a permanent place in my 20 years of commercial travel. The Soup Nazi and Jerry and the Rental Car Agent. Every new airline employee at the customer level should be required to watch these episodes at their annual continuing education. It's really about pride vs humility.
Is it not a FAA regulation to be seated during take off and landing or whenever requested by captain? I really can’t imagine this “explanation” by AA to be taken with a straight face regardless of what the contract of carriage says.
Now with regards to people traveling long distances with infirmaries or kids with limited help…Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should…
The FAA’s insistence on not requiring that infants ride in a car-seat dates back to the 80s, despite the NTSB always saying it would be safer. It is sadly a thing.
The only problem with this lady’s lawsuit is that policy you quoted is not the American Airlines policy regarding child safety seats or traveling with infants. She probably made it up. A simple search of the AA.com website would have showed you the actual policies. Children under 2 must be on a lap or in a safety seat. It’s always been that way.
Exactly and I was a flight attendant for 36 years.
So … it seems you were one of those FAs making up rules as you went along? ;)
From the AA website:
"Reserved seat
If your infant will travel in their own seat, you must buy a ticket. The infant must either travel in a safety seat approved by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) or be able to sit upright in their seat without assistance and have their seatbelt securely fastened during taxi, takeoff, landing and whenever the 'fasten seatbelt' sign is on."
(https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/special-assistance/traveling-children.jsp)
That's took me under 90 seconds to...
From the AA website:
"Reserved seat
If your infant will travel in their own seat, you must buy a ticket. The infant must either travel in a safety seat approved by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) or be able to sit upright in their seat without assistance and have their seatbelt securely fastened during taxi, takeoff, landing and whenever the 'fasten seatbelt' sign is on."
(https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/special-assistance/traveling-children.jsp)
That's took me under 90 seconds to find; what's the point of just making up random shit?
This would be an excellent oppportunity for the general counsel of American Airlines to realize that discretion is the better part of value, shut his pie hole, and settle the lawsuit out of court.
If AA does not guarantee a seat only transportation then why am I assigned a specific seat (24C). Also why am I not allowed to stand for the entire flight including takeoff and landing. If they will not let you stand they must supply a seat.
Passengers under the age of 2 must be held in lap or seated in a DOT- approved child seat (A child “car seat” usually meets this requirement.) That is a long-standing Federal Aviation Regulation.
AA is acting like a bully here. The very least they should do is refund the ticket cost and provide training to the flight attendants. However, I believe the airline should show some good grace and not only refund the ticket but also give her free miles for future travel with her two infants and perhaps a couple of new travel car seats and reimburse her for time and money bringing this case to small Claims Court.
I would make sure this airline gets all the free publicity that it deserves. Shame on American airlines.
All I need to say is I would not even consider booking a flight with American Airlines from now on. Show some class and accountability American airlines, you're employee screwed up, OWN IT. You could have chosen to go the other direction and make up for your employees errors and maybe given the woman a couple of free flight coupons. Then we would all be talking about what a great airline you are instead of how cheap and vindictive.
In 45 years of practicing law, I have never encountered a more ridiculous piece of legal casuistry as American's argument that they are not required to provide a seat. How, then, can passengers comply with FAA rules that they must remain seated with seat belts fastened on takeoff and landing and whenever the captain turns on the fasten seat belts sign?
Such any 1L making such an argument would have flunked moot court.
THANK you. I am not a lawyer, but the absence of logic in making those two arguments in tandem struck me immediately as absurd.
Wonder how you would fasten a seatbelt if you were not seated in a seat?
While I sympathize with this mother, I do not think she should be allowed to travel with two children of this age. How would she manage if they both start crying, both want to be Ed at the same time. Worse yet, if there was any kind accident and the plane had to be evacuated, how would the mother handle that?
Not allowed to travel? You're one sick puppy!
Hate to break it to you but mothers have to deal with those same situations even if they're at home. What twisted logic makes you think being away from the support of the public eye is even slightly safer?? You're insane
What a ridiculous comment!
AA should refund the ticket price of the seat that the woman was denied use of for the child. Had the kind woman not been there to offer her service, AA would be liable for worse damages due to its error. AA should consider itself lucky, admit the error, refund the ticket, quit while they're ahead, and move on.
Would the aircraft been smaller a two by two seater made a difference in this case ? Or what is a 3 x 3 aircraft
I am a 73 year old woman. On 07/25/2023, at the MQT airport, American Airlines Counter Agent, “Jamie”, and her Supervisor, Cody Lee, refused to acknowledge that my C-pap machine and Service Animal were legally not counted as carry on luggage. This was in violation of FAA and American Airlines regulations. They forced me to pay $40.00, for a checked bag that was allowed to me free of charge, as it was included in my...
I am a 73 year old woman. On 07/25/2023, at the MQT airport, American Airlines Counter Agent, “Jamie”, and her Supervisor, Cody Lee, refused to acknowledge that my C-pap machine and Service Animal were legally not counted as carry on luggage. This was in violation of FAA and American Airlines regulations. They forced me to pay $40.00, for a checked bag that was allowed to me free of charge, as it was included in my ticket fare. They made up FAA regulations to justify their conduct and supported their lack of knowledge by verbally and physically intimidating me. They disallowed my carry on bag and refused to allow me access to it on a layover by checking it through to my final destination. By that time I was shaken, distraught and forgot that my home and vehicle keys were in my bag they disallowed. Because of a 3 hour flight delay I arrived at my destination at 2:00am. My bag they disallowed was lost and did not arrive. I was without the ability to retrieve my vehicle or get into my house. I spent the night in the airport, took a 30 mile Lyft to my home when it was light out. I broke into my home through a window. The next morning I took to another Lyft to the airport to get my vehicle. American Airlines supported their employees decisions and stated the company’s training was in compliance with FAA regulations. Shame on them for engaging in elder abuse and condoning the violation of FAA and their own company’s policies. Their actions in my view are complicit and criminal.
As a mother of twins and AA million-miler as well, I have finally decided that I will not be flying with them until kids start pulling their own luggage. It was just better for everyone - us, the flight crew, and the passengers. There was a pause in our air travel for a moment, and now we are all good.
To me, AA’s stance is lost! Bc if she flew the 1st leg w/the car seat, on AA, then it proves she should have been able to fly ALL of the legs w/the car seat! Regardless of the flight attendant’s apology, the Mom HAS a case against AA! They’re wrong, Mom’s right, period!
Can you go into a convenience store? Buy a candy bar and the cashier. Keep the candy bar and tell you to go screw yourself? No, because that would be stealing. If you pay for something, you should receive that something. Otherwise, the person who sold you the imaginary item is stealing your money.
Ridiculous argument by American. So, if there's no need for them to promise any seat at all and they still check in a passenger, will that person have to be squatting in the aisle?
AA is 100% correct. You can't have an 18 month old kid trying to sit in a seat. In addition, having TWO 18 month olds with you would be challenging given any emergency. Use your car seat lady, stop being lazy. Or travel with a nanny or another family member, who could have held the other kid.
Wow, out of touch much? You got no kids I can see. Or you're a stay-at-home, mom With a rich husband who can afford nanny's LOL. And it does state in a a's policies that a child can sit in a seat if it's able to set up right and 18 months old can in fact set up right.
The one who is out of touch is the lady trying to sue. She’s tripping. There is no airline anywhere that allows anyone under 2 to sit in a seat. It’s not even up to the airlines to decide. It’s a Federal Air Regulation. Look it up yourself: FAR 121.311 requires any person under two years to sit on an adult’s lap or be in an approved child restraint seat. I don’t know where she...
The one who is out of touch is the lady trying to sue. She’s tripping. There is no airline anywhere that allows anyone under 2 to sit in a seat. It’s not even up to the airlines to decide. It’s a Federal Air Regulation. Look it up yourself: FAR 121.311 requires any person under two years to sit on an adult’s lap or be in an approved child restraint seat. I don’t know where she got that imaginary policy the author quoted, but it wasn’t on the American Airlines website.
So, American's only promise is to get you to your destination.....
Guess the lady is lucky American didn't stick her baby in cargo.
American should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Kudos to the ladies who helped the mother and who are willing to testify in court.
They'll just duct tape you to the side of the plane I guess.
Would love to act surprised but we are talking about American Cattlelines and ‘Murica. Could have been worse - they could have demanded that the infants take the seats and she fly in the jump seat!
Have flown American several times international this attendant should learn rules also she is not helpful or kind BUT she apologized that's confirmation
Doesn't surprise me. When I would fly with my infant daughter years ago. I had to have the printed versions of the airline and FAA not to mention proof a car seat was FAA approved because the attendants would always be ignorant and say it's not legal to have a car seat and I would show the paperwork to prove it was!
While I agree it would have been safer for the child to be in a car seat, the bigger issue was AAs response. If AAs goal really is “taking care of people on life’s journeys”, they would empower their employees to make proactive decisions. They should have retrieved the car seat from checked baggage (and run it through a security screener if that is a concern), and the situation would have ended their plus the...
While I agree it would have been safer for the child to be in a car seat, the bigger issue was AAs response. If AAs goal really is “taking care of people on life’s journeys”, they would empower their employees to make proactive decisions. They should have retrieved the car seat from checked baggage (and run it through a security screener if that is a concern), and the situation would have ended their plus the child would be safely secured in a car seat rather than a good samaritans lap.
If not, just refund a portion of the funds/miles used as a gesture of goodwill. It’s customer service 101. As an employee of AA I’m so embarrassed by our continual failure to our passengers because decisions/leadership of execs in DFW. They continue to make inept decisions from their swanky new hq offices while leaving the front line employees to clean up the mess they created.
The airline says you have to be seated with seatbelt fastened for takeoff and landing therefore they're implying that they'll provide you with a seat, I'm surprised a judge let it get this far
Six years ago, I was visiting my daughter in Arizona. My grandson was 5 months old but was born 9 weeks premature. While I was there we got word that my father had been put in hospice care. My daughter had a trip planned to Michigan to see him, but we were afraid he may not live that long, so we made plans to get the baby to Michigan so my dad could see his...
Six years ago, I was visiting my daughter in Arizona. My grandson was 5 months old but was born 9 weeks premature. While I was there we got word that my father had been put in hospice care. My daughter had a trip planned to Michigan to see him, but we were afraid he may not live that long, so we made plans to get the baby to Michigan so my dad could see his first great grandchild before he died. I tried to change my flight and instead of being helpful, American charged my hundreds of dollars. Then they charged my daughter $50 each way to book a ticket for baby in lap. After a rant on their Facebook page, they waived the fees, but I haven't flown with them since.
Wow, just another reason I would never fly American Airlines. I have only made that mistake once. I will never even check AA's website, even though they fly out of PDX to Dallas nonstop. I'd take any other airline even if it's more expensive and not a nonstop flight. The worst Airline in the US in my opinion.
Most of the "unruly" passengers we're seeing these days are just normal, everyday people that refuse to be stepped on by P.O.S FA's with an undeserved god complex. It's high time they learn their place as the door opener and drink server. Any actual issue should be forwarded to a competent individual, such as those on the flight deck.
Wow!! So if they do't owe you a seat why do they insist that you MUST fasten your seat belt at take off, during turbulence and when landing? They really are ridiculous!
As a parent of twins myself, SO MUCH solidarity to Erika. Also, PSA to all travel professionals - when you see a parent/adult traveling alone with multiple kids ESPECIALLY twins/triplets, please make the effort to know WTF you're talking about before you impose rules, and more importantly have patience and be kind. Its challenging enough to travel alone with kids, let alone twins. (No, twins are not the same or as "easy" as two kids...
As a parent of twins myself, SO MUCH solidarity to Erika. Also, PSA to all travel professionals - when you see a parent/adult traveling alone with multiple kids ESPECIALLY twins/triplets, please make the effort to know WTF you're talking about before you impose rules, and more importantly have patience and be kind. Its challenging enough to travel alone with kids, let alone twins. (No, twins are not the same or as "easy" as two kids of different ages.) Somehow I'm not surprised that AA is taking this stance but as a AA Million Miler this kind of stuff always really disappoints me. AA is a shell of the company it was 20 years ago - service wise - when I was EXP for multiple years in a row. This kind of story makes me have really low expectations (and makes me anxious) for any upcoming AA TATL flight with our kids. And I'm about as far as you can get from an anxious traveler.
It seams I hear the worst customer service stories about American Airlines, United Airlines, and Frontier Airlines. Considering how much American and United charge, I don't understand why people still give them their business. While, obviously, you can have bad customer service anywhere, it seems like these 3 are the worst offenders.
This just solidified my stance that AA is an airline to not fly in any way, shape, or form.
Hopefully they lose this case..
I think she should get her money for her fly miles back , also they should pay for court fees too.
No one should have to wound is they going to be stuck somewhere with there kids or put off a plane because of rules that was made up and don't exist.
I bet that was very scary to be a mother with two infants traveling alone and going to be stuck and put off a plane
This is AA argument to start selling futur seated or non seated tickets.
Another issue is when she reported it to AA, what did she request? If she requested a refund of the miles or a reasonable sum of money that is one thing, but if she requested too much then I would side with dismissing the case too.
You must be a Republican!
I wonder what US-based airlines could do about staff training. We hardly ever experience the issues that occur on US-based airlines on foreign airlines.
About this situation, I think the passenger could have handled this differently. Once the flight attendant gave such a response I would have talked with the purser. Then, if it persisted, I would have got the flight attendant's name and employee number. I would have gotten a written statement and contact...
I wonder what US-based airlines could do about staff training. We hardly ever experience the issues that occur on US-based airlines on foreign airlines.
About this situation, I think the passenger could have handled this differently. Once the flight attendant gave such a response I would have talked with the purser. Then, if it persisted, I would have got the flight attendant's name and employee number. I would have gotten a written statement and contact information from the other passenger that assisted for the infant in lap. Then I would have contacted AA customer service to request the refund and supplied the proofs, because infants in lap are free and infant did not use the seat as per flight attendant instruction. Then this would proof that the seat was not used due to the flight staff and I would have proved that the passenger can choose either lap or seat. The problem she has is that she needs to prove that the flight attendant told her the infant must fly in lap with no other solution and she needs to prove the seat was unused. There is another solution but it would have delayed the flight in that they could have pulled the car seat from the hold. Furthermore, what is also odd is that this is the second flight that she had a problem. Seems the flight attendant did not consider this. One reason why these situations happen is because passengers do not go to decision making staff when before a situation is out of hand.
Wow, AA seems to be the worse airline around. I hope Erica will make enough money from lawsuit she won't ever fly with AA
The FA was not wrong though. The policy on the AA website is though, or at least very unclear. FAR 121.311 is VERY clear however, it states "a person who has not reached their second birthday must be held by an adult who is occupying an approved seat or be secured in an approved child restraint device". Look it up yourself before inaccurately declaring this FA was making up her own rules. FAA regulations always...
The FA was not wrong though. The policy on the AA website is though, or at least very unclear. FAR 121.311 is VERY clear however, it states "a person who has not reached their second birthday must be held by an adult who is occupying an approved seat or be secured in an approved child restraint device". Look it up yourself before inaccurately declaring this FA was making up her own rules. FAA regulations always supersede any supposed "policy" on the website, that is what FAs are bound to.
I read the court documents that could be viewed through the link provided by one commentator and find a few things interesting. First, although the complaint originates from American's refusal to provide a cash refund, she is suing for $3,500, which is considerable more than the cost of the ticket. Second, it appears there was an attempt at mediation, but the parties could not reach an agreement. I would be curious to know how much...
I read the court documents that could be viewed through the link provided by one commentator and find a few things interesting. First, although the complaint originates from American's refusal to provide a cash refund, she is suing for $3,500, which is considerable more than the cost of the ticket. Second, it appears there was an attempt at mediation, but the parties could not reach an agreement. I would be curious to know how much American's lawyers offered during settlement negotiations. This would shed light on how reasonable (or unreasonable) the complaining party was during negotations. Having litigated many lawsuits without an attorney (I am not one but rather just a paralegal), I can tell you that most large companies will pay if you keep your demand reasonable (i.e. $500-1500 for cases with little or no actual injury). While I understand the experience was upsetting, and I support her holding the airline accountable, she may ultimately end up getting little more than the cost of her airline ticket, since a judge will be applying the law and calculating any ACTUAL damages, which are clearly not $3,500.
FAA rule supersedes Company rule. It is the FAA’s rule that a child under 2 cannot occupy a seat unless in an approved CRS.
The key is in the name of the airline. Had one flight, one bad experience, and never AA since the mid '90's. It's the "Ugly ,,,," airline. A book needs to be written
Did any one think about "in case of an emergency, how can that mother take care of both infants? Said mother can't expect any assistance from any flight attendant nor any other passengers in an emergency. The flight attendants have a plane full of passengers to help in an emergency. As for assistance from other passengers, perhaps not possible as most would be in panic mode. Also an 18 months old infant is not a...
Did any one think about "in case of an emergency, how can that mother take care of both infants? Said mother can't expect any assistance from any flight attendant nor any other passengers in an emergency. The flight attendants have a plane full of passengers to help in an emergency. As for assistance from other passengers, perhaps not possible as most would be in panic mode. Also an 18 months old infant is not a 2 year old, there fore said infant has to be in a care seat per FAA for safety reasons. Not recommend air travel with twin infants. So no fault on part of flight attendant nor American Airline.
An infant is defined as one year or younger. These were toddlers.
All of this, because the government doesn’t have a clue how to deal with passengers’ rights and airlines.
Ben, the whole "Contract of Carriage" by American Airlines is a bunch of crap that denies reasonable accommodation of getting pasengers to their destination ASAP including rebooking on other airlines. All this language about "only obligation is to refund the cost of a cancelled flight" when the cancellation is due to their operational issues. THis is absolutely ludicrous as AA can offer you a flight a few days in the future on their metal as...
Ben, the whole "Contract of Carriage" by American Airlines is a bunch of crap that denies reasonable accommodation of getting pasengers to their destination ASAP including rebooking on other airlines. All this language about "only obligation is to refund the cost of a cancelled flight" when the cancellation is due to their operational issues. THis is absolutely ludicrous as AA can offer you a flight a few days in the future on their metal as a "take it or leave it" proposition or otherwise provide a refund STRANDING THE PASSENGER. This is as bad as not "guaranteeing a set" as in this case.
Also, particularly egregious is the citation of the fact that FA's have the discretion of having you deplaned even if they are incorrect with AA's own Polices and Procedures. THe FA should have consulted with captain and/or ground staff.
I hope all this nonsense in the "Conditions of Carriage" of American Airlines is brought to attention of Mr Pete Buttegieg and since Airilnes can' operate in an ethical manner,they should be regulated including heavy fines as compensation to the passengers and FAA.
I hope she wins the law suit. Words can be used to try and cover your tail, but facts are different as she has in her favor She will win and should in this case . Good luck.
More evidence that AA is managed by morons.
90% of all these weird outlying incidents seem to be on AA.
What a bullshit policy in the first place.
AA was NEGLIGENT by improperly training its flight attendant so that the flight attendant could evaluate the safety question in light of the established rules. If the rule as published is not absolute, AA breached the contract by failing to honor a right it granted to the buyer or, alternatively, falsely advertised. That is a form of fraud. The least defensible of all is the refusal to refund. Seems to be an issue of someone...
AA was NEGLIGENT by improperly training its flight attendant so that the flight attendant could evaluate the safety question in light of the established rules. If the rule as published is not absolute, AA breached the contract by failing to honor a right it granted to the buyer or, alternatively, falsely advertised. That is a form of fraud. The least defensible of all is the refusal to refund. Seems to be an issue of someone at AA not thinking this through.
It reminds me of a time when Continental pulled a travel agency's plate (their ticketing authorization) for selling tickets to a group that deplaned at the connecting point, as part of a planned hidden city for relocating migrant workers. Someone at Continental actually put in writing that the travel agency should have recognized what was going on because all the passengers had Hispanic names.
Conclusion: The ticket you buy at AA is for a standing position. If you look well in the eyes of a flight attendant then you might receive (at her sole discretion) a seat for no charge at all, and her decision is final and un-touchable in a court of law (will see about it).
If you don't have a seat how can you get an oxygen mask in an emergency and how do you put your seat belt at take off and landing?
I am with AA flight attendant here. It is absolute unsafe for a person to carry 2 infants and an infant under 2 cannot safely sit in a seat designed for adults. The flight attendant can stop anyone from flying if she deems that the person is unfit for or unsafe during the flight. Regardless of written law and rules, I believe the flight attendant and captain can decide if someone should not fly if they cannot be safe during the flight.
No problem. The airliner should have either explicitely prohibited that set of circumstances in their rules (before paying for a ticket) or refund all the tickets. In a democracy, all things not banned by law, are automatically permitted.
It would make sense AA hires illiterate flight attendants. Re-read the article and your safety instructions please.
Hows that boot leather taste? I'll bet you're ok with them not refunding her money for not allowing her to use the seat she paid for as well...
I'm not really for or against the FA, here. More relevant IMO is the horrible response from AA and their attorneys, and the claim that CoC doesn't guarantee a seat on the plane, just that you can be on the plane when it goes from point to point.
A couple flaws in your statement:
1. Keep in mind that an 18 month old is a child, not an infant (0-1 year of age per the CDC). An 18 month old can typically sut upright in a self supporting manner; a six month old typically cannnot.
2. I agree that a two year old can not sit safely in a seat designed for an adult, however not can a three or four...
A couple flaws in your statement:
1. Keep in mind that an 18 month old is a child, not an infant (0-1 year of age per the CDC). An 18 month old can typically sut upright in a self supporting manner; a six month old typically cannnot.
2. I agree that a two year old can not sit safely in a seat designed for an adult, however not can a three or four year old.
3. Yes, the flight crew has broad discretion, but exercise of that discretion may not be capricious nor arbitrary. The crew on the first flight did not have a concern about the child's seating, in itself making the decision of the second crew open to question. The mom is exercising her right to have a judge answer that question, among others.
4. Officiousness is never a good look.
So basically, as is usual here on this site, you are completely wrong. If she used miles, she did not in fact "Pay for it"....but in fact they did not pay for the seat. So, in the end this is just another BS story.....par for the course for this site.
"Pay" isn't always monetary. You can pay with labour, pay with a product, pay with your life (for egregious crimes, in places with the death penalty) or, in this case, pay with points.
Perhaps your name should be NonSense.
Bitter much? Do you have a travel blog that you hope is one day able to compete with OMAAT or something?
Sorry you're failing miserably, but as airlines attribute "value" to miles, the seat was PAID FOR WITH MILES.
Hope that helped. Byeeeeee
Reminds me of any incident many years ago on TWA (remember them) when we were travelling with our one year old daughter. We travelled with her car seat and bought a ticket for her for a transcon flight.
Some irritable FA accosted me about our daughter sitting in her car seat buckled into seat, telling me that “you can't do that.” She got furious after I showed her our daughter's boarding pass with seat number...
Reminds me of any incident many years ago on TWA (remember them) when we were travelling with our one year old daughter. We travelled with her car seat and bought a ticket for her for a transcon flight.
Some irritable FA accosted me about our daughter sitting in her car seat buckled into seat, telling me that “you can't do that.” She got furious after I showed her our daughter's boarding pass with seat number and my simple statement that our daughter has a paid seat and the car seat and that I saw no reason why she couldn't sit there. The FA mumbled something under her breath and left us alone for the rest of the flight.
I am willing to bet this was an legal intern law student tasked by an Senior corporate attorney to argue this as practice for lawsuits and to become intimately familiar with the Contract of Carriage. Then it took on a life of its own as "the senior counsel asked for it, so we must want to file it".
If this went to an outside firm, and they billed for the attorney time, it was...
I am willing to bet this was an legal intern law student tasked by an Senior corporate attorney to argue this as practice for lawsuits and to become intimately familiar with the Contract of Carriage. Then it took on a life of its own as "the senior counsel asked for it, so we must want to file it".
If this went to an outside firm, and they billed for the attorney time, it was costing American far more in legal fees than the ticket cost. Also, redepositing the miles means the "money" would be spent with American, so now it cost them about 50% less. Somebody is not paying attention, or the culture of not speaking up is horrible there and that is usually the downfall of companies.
I’d think there wouldn’t be any refund of AAdvantage points because I’m thinking it would be the same mileage to be redeemed for PDX-DFW-TLH, PDX-DFW or DFW-TLH (all within the 48 contiguous states). ???
Hang on, the article states that the toddler's ticket was an award ticket 'she purchased using AAdvantage miles.' All of this instead of simply redepositing the miles? That's genuinely insane.
According to their defense, AA flights could in fact be standing room only!
"There is nothing in the governing contract that requires American to do anything beyond transport a passenger from one place to another on the date and time of the ticket. Even the seat assignment of a passenger is not guaranteed under the contract."
Not really. FAA requires those 2 and over to be in a seat, so if they don't give you a seat they can't get you from A to B and you're due the refund.
I would argue that seat to lap infant is a change in class of service and a refund is due.
So from this logic (technically no guarantee of ANY seat), airline does not owe passenger anything in the case of downgrade from business to economy?
We were downgraded on an international AA flight about 6 years ago from business to economy due to an air Marshall boarding at the last minute. Offered $600 for the seat, which we refused. I just wanted to be refunded for the difference between what we paid and an economy seat, but American refused. They told us that we either had to move, or we'd be escorted off the plane altogether. Upon returning to the...
We were downgraded on an international AA flight about 6 years ago from business to economy due to an air Marshall boarding at the last minute. Offered $600 for the seat, which we refused. I just wanted to be refunded for the difference between what we paid and an economy seat, but American refused. They told us that we either had to move, or we'd be escorted off the plane altogether. Upon returning to the states we contacted American, and they still refused. After tweeting the situation, suddenly they changed their tune and sent us the difference.
A A , will lose in court! What a stupid flight attendant.
What is lacking, is common sense..
Way to go AA. I imagine you’re in the running for worst customer service and determined to win gold.
Although I agree that it would have easier to have AA refund the ticket and that probably would have been the end of that. Silly of them to pick this battle. On the other hand, it seems extremely unlikely that an 18 month old infant would be able to sit upright strapped in a seat for a good chunk of the flight. US airlines never seem to turn the seatbelt sign off except for extremely...
Although I agree that it would have easier to have AA refund the ticket and that probably would have been the end of that. Silly of them to pick this battle. On the other hand, it seems extremely unlikely that an 18 month old infant would be able to sit upright strapped in a seat for a good chunk of the flight. US airlines never seem to turn the seatbelt sign off except for extremely brief periods. Makes we wonder why she didn't bring one car seat onboard (she checked in 2 of them). I know she has 2 children but couldn't she haven't gotten some assistance to help with the 1 car seat. Did she carry one infant in each arm? Did she have a carry on with diaper bags, food etc....how would she managed that in addition to holding 2 kids?
If American Airlines is saying it will get a person to a destination at a set date and time but it doesn't guarantee a seat, how does this happen... I mean your required to wear a seat belt when the sign is lit and not require airline personnel when it's an emergency for which in most cases they (American Airlines) is responsible for... ie engine fire, blown tire, dead pilots that can't land their plane....
If American Airlines is saying it will get a person to a destination at a set date and time but it doesn't guarantee a seat, how does this happen... I mean your required to wear a seat belt when the sign is lit and not require airline personnel when it's an emergency for which in most cases they (American Airlines) is responsible for... ie engine fire, blown tire, dead pilots that can't land their plane. Then how are the guaranteed to get you to your destination safely without a SEAT which was paid by the passenger, for doesnt matter how, it was.
They need to stop over booking flights, paying people for that ticket and giving them a new ticket and raising prices of seats, luggage fees SMALL CrRAMPEd Seats which are unsafe and everything else because they (American Airlines) are not doing their job the customers whom BUY the seats need them to do... fly from point A to B. Flight Attendant thought crying baby and made up a lie not to fly the paying customer. No customers, no business!!!! get out of the way for somebody who will do the JOB your hired to do!!!
How idiotic are AA lawyers and executives who fight this case?
AA should seriously rethink this stance. Based purely on their heads of argument and not any legislation: If they are only obligated to transport you from A to B and not provide you with a seat then conversely they cannot oblige you to be seated with your seat belt fastened during take off or landing.
My interpretation of "seat assignment is not guaranteed" is not that the passenger is not entitled to have a seat at all, but that a SPECIFIC seat is not guaranteed. I think that AA is arguing that the "passenger" (infant) was able to complete the trip, albeit not in the seat they selected, so AA has fulfilled their obligation. I'm not saying I'm siding with AA, but I think this is their argument.
I agree, especially since many air carriers don't provide seat assignments.
Since AA does not guarantee you a seat then there would be no justification to kick someone out of a seat. When I get on an airplane I should be able to sit anywhere I want including first class.
Unbelievable AA doesn't just refund the miles or cost.
While I am fully supportive of holding airlines accountable for systemic failures, and while I acknowledge that a passenger bringing a small claims action against an airline is newsworthy, this article made me uncomfortable. Individuals who are hired for service industry jobs are increasingly unskilled and regrettably lacking in common sense and communications abilities. Frontline service industry positions, whether that of a flight attendant, school bus driver, or clerk at McDonald's, are notorious for low...
While I am fully supportive of holding airlines accountable for systemic failures, and while I acknowledge that a passenger bringing a small claims action against an airline is newsworthy, this article made me uncomfortable. Individuals who are hired for service industry jobs are increasingly unskilled and regrettably lacking in common sense and communications abilities. Frontline service industry positions, whether that of a flight attendant, school bus driver, or clerk at McDonald's, are notorious for low pay. And while this is a generalization, customers are becoming noticeably less civil and lacking of patience when something goes awry. All of this being said, the bottom line here is actually that one single flight attendant did not perform their job to standards, and such a failure was deemed sufficiently newsworthy to be published in this venue. Respectfully, the next time anyone at onemileatatime finds themselves delayed or inconvenienced because service Industries cannot find frontline workers who are willing to be subjected to this degree of scrutiny for doing something boneheaded will be mindful of these concerns.
(1). This industry never has trouble finding applicants to take FLIGHT ATTENDANT positions; they DO have trouble finding good applicants since Deregulation (1978), when the industry began their streak of paying them worse & worse as compared to their cost of living, because the local industry doesn't value Customer Service.
(2). This is newsworthy because: the Airline refused a refund for a hard product (seating) that they had sold & subsequently REFUSED to provide...
(1). This industry never has trouble finding applicants to take FLIGHT ATTENDANT positions; they DO have trouble finding good applicants since Deregulation (1978), when the industry began their streak of paying them worse & worse as compared to their cost of living, because the local industry doesn't value Customer Service.
(2). This is newsworthy because: the Airline refused a refund for a hard product (seating) that they had sold & subsequently REFUSED to provide for a whole segment of the trip.
AA made me pay bag check in fee when on international flight to India. This was back in 2013 when I was new to this game. But I still knew, since I booked thru Qatar, their policy applied and they allowed 2 check in bags. I protested but the gate agent and supposedly her supervisor said I was wrong and I had to pay $100/$150 or I am not flying with 2 bags. After that, I sweared to never fly them again. I'd pay more for Delta, but never AA.
What I'd like to know is why we have all kinds of laws mandating small children/infants must be in an appropriate care seat in an automobile, but not on other modes of transport, including planes. If there's a crash on a plane or boat, will it somehow spare an infant being held in someone's lap, just because they're not in a car? Make it uniform across all modes of transport, and end the unsafe practice of "lap infants."
A plane crash is vary different and much more rare than an automobile (where the consideration is lateral motion from a sudden stop). For airlines, it's about not falling out of seat during vertical climb/sudden turbulence.
As for boats...they ain't going at car speed.
In fairness to OP, the NTSB has been consistently against lap infants for decades but there has never been agreement amongst the FAA to institute such a rule and no appetite on the part of airlines to enforce their own ban on it.
The FAA has done studies on this several times in the past. All concluded that requiring infants to be in child seats would actually REDUCE safety when you consider the negative impacts that such a policy would have.
The short version of the argument against requiring child seats in airplanes is that the increased cost for the required seat would drive more people to drive instead of fly and since flying is so much safer...
The FAA has done studies on this several times in the past. All concluded that requiring infants to be in child seats would actually REDUCE safety when you consider the negative impacts that such a policy would have.
The short version of the argument against requiring child seats in airplanes is that the increased cost for the required seat would drive more people to drive instead of fly and since flying is so much safer than driving, this would cause more infant injuries and deaths than just letting the infants ride in a parent's lap since airborne injuries are so few and far between.
For more info, see the the letter than the FAA sent to congress back in 2019 about this:
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/2021-11/FAA-180810-001-Safety-of-Lap-held-infants-Forwarded-to-Congress.pdf
Amazing that AA wants to actually fight this is court with their weak argument. The traveler should immediately send AA's response to the US DOT for further action by them as well. American's actions constitute an unfair and deceptive trade practice under US code.
I have a similar story involving American Airlines. Would love to tell you about it. Please email me.
I did some digging and it is interesting that there does seem to be some variation amongst airlines as to the question of infants sitting on their own. Some, for example, take the tack that AA does officially and which it did not follow, that if the infant can sit up on their own and be strapped in they do not need a car seat. Others take the position that there must be an approved...
I did some digging and it is interesting that there does seem to be some variation amongst airlines as to the question of infants sitting on their own. Some, for example, take the tack that AA does officially and which it did not follow, that if the infant can sit up on their own and be strapped in they do not need a car seat. Others take the position that there must be an approved FAA car seat for any infant, regardless. Personally after our second daughter was born we have never used the lap infant rule again, despite her being under 2, because of the fact that there are simply too many logistical hurdles with managing two kids at once.
Tangentially related but interesting break down here of the various options car seat wise and how this plays out internationally: https://travelcarseatmom.com/airline-approved-car-seats/
FAA rule is if the child is under 2, they MUST be in an approved child restraint system or in the lap of an adult. AA needs to update their policy bc as a flight attendant I’m making the child sit in a lap or car seat. If FAA is onboard I can be funded for breaking an FAR.
So…you have to be seated and belted in for takeoff and landing yet AA says they just have to get you to your destination, no seats are promised??? That right there makes no sense!
The amount of times flight attendants (especially on AA) harass passengers with the blanket reason of “federal regulations” and “airline policy” is absolutely shocking. Flight attendants simply should not have the authority to ruin a passenger’s flight experience (or worse) due to a policy they don’t understand and/or a passenger doing something they don’t like. I’m not trying to diminish the hard work flight attendants do, but I honestly believe flight attendant training should include...
The amount of times flight attendants (especially on AA) harass passengers with the blanket reason of “federal regulations” and “airline policy” is absolutely shocking. Flight attendants simply should not have the authority to ruin a passenger’s flight experience (or worse) due to a policy they don’t understand and/or a passenger doing something they don’t like. I’m not trying to diminish the hard work flight attendants do, but I honestly believe flight attendant training should include a written exam specifically for federal regulations and airline policies, and there should be penalization if a passenger is hurt from a flight attendant getting regulation wrong. Again, there are a lot of good FAs out there, but the amount of times I’ve encountered a FA with an AAuthoritarian attitude is a big problem.
Air carrier training programs are required to inform/teach flight attendants about federal aviation regulations, and flight attendants are required to pass (85% or higher) tests regarding federal aviation regulations.
It's always amusing to watch the power struggle between FAs and the flying public. To be fair, the flying public is full of imbeciles, and even more so full of regular people who just have no clue when it comes to aviation. To some extent, I'd rather that FAs retain a high-degree of power to be able to keep people in line, but I also think it's plenty appropriate to force an airlines hand into...
It's always amusing to watch the power struggle between FAs and the flying public. To be fair, the flying public is full of imbeciles, and even more so full of regular people who just have no clue when it comes to aviation. To some extent, I'd rather that FAs retain a high-degree of power to be able to keep people in line, but I also think it's plenty appropriate to force an airlines hand into making amends when an FA goes rogue. FA gets a slap on the wrist or something or other, maybe a discussion about it, and we all move on. Assuming the FA recognized the error and is genuinely remorseful, the much, much larger issue here is the companies response.
Paid Ticket and boarding pass with seat number. Who is it for then ? I know it’s the hungry ghost festival over here in Asia but ???
What did AA charge her and accepted her money for then?
The FAA should have consumer protection against tyrannical FAs
The legal fees AA will pay will be 3x to 5x the cost of the flight. This just reeks of a CS person doubling done versus looking at the Cost Vs ROI.
The flight attendant should be ARRESTED for reckless endangerment of the infant, and American will never see my business. Airlines in general have become tyrannical citing alleged unruly passengers to justify same. American is as bad as United.
I mean, this situation upsets me as much as anyone, but the notion that the flight attendant should be arrested is absurd. Top-notch snap judgement, though! A+
I find it remarkable that AA would rather spend far more money on attorneys, than on a refund of a ticket, especially when there actions will only bring criticism, and most probably lost customers. Of course, there are undoubtedly those who would welcome barring all passengers under two from any flight, in case they might be sitting next to them and crying.
This is but a sliver less egregious than Boeing lawyers arguing that there was no pain or suffering as the 737-Max plummeted to its demise.
I'm curious what person comes up with these arguments... is it the company directing the lawyer, is it the lawyer themselves? Someone needs a firm face to face scolding for the level of douchebaggery they are demonstrating.
Seriously... all the swear words.
Not an attorney here. Curious about the actual suit documents. I ask because I was going to take a firm to small claims court, many years ago, in Maryland. It was easy to file the suit, and the court costs were not too costly. BUT, even though the work was (not well) performed in my county, I was going to have to file in the county where the firm's main office was located (1/2 way...
Not an attorney here. Curious about the actual suit documents. I ask because I was going to take a firm to small claims court, many years ago, in Maryland. It was easy to file the suit, and the court costs were not too costly. BUT, even though the work was (not well) performed in my county, I was going to have to file in the county where the firm's main office was located (1/2 way across the state), and then it was my responsibility to ensure the suit was served properly. (I don't recall the details, but the court recommended that it was served by a 'server', not via US mail and not by me personally. All additional time and costs. In this case, the issue was resolved before all of those steps.
I wonder if I wanted to take AA, UA, whatever, to small claims court, would I have to file suit in Dallas, Chicago, etc.?
I also wonder what the outcome of a DOT complaint would have been. And is the decision via a DOT complaint final, i.e. if DOT sided with the ambiguous language in the CoC and I didn't like the outcome, could I file suit?
Unbelievable! American Airlines... Shame on you!!!
Where can we view the filings online?
It's pretty easy to request documents from the court, but there are usually costs involved. Here is a link to the complaint and briefing on summary determination. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GNNKNpJBjDQMSfKJq8ATPP5NOviCvpJG?usp=drive_link
I've read the documents, and attachments. The response to the MSJ is very well written.
I'm personally aggravated that a private citizen would have to go through this process, particularly as 99% of individuals do not have the skill-set required to litigate a claim.
I am a civil attorney. I've worked both sides of the aisle (plaintiff and for the defense). The amount of fees spent by the defense on this matter exceed the...
I've read the documents, and attachments. The response to the MSJ is very well written.
I'm personally aggravated that a private citizen would have to go through this process, particularly as 99% of individuals do not have the skill-set required to litigate a claim.
I am a civil attorney. I've worked both sides of the aisle (plaintiff and for the defense). The amount of fees spent by the defense on this matter exceed the amount in controversy. In my jurisdiction, attorneys cannot appear in small claims court. I would have to remove to to justice court. But there is zero case that I would have ever recommended to a client to fight this type of matter.
AmericanAirlines is completely missing the forest for the trees. It picked the wrong fight. I love great writing. It's particularly impressive especially if you don't actively practice this type of work. I'm rooting for you, Erika.
Being that this case is in small claims court, there's absolutely no chance that an attorney for American Airlines will show up, and the passenger will win by default. The price of sending an attorney to small claims court in Oregon is far more expensive than the amount of any judgment against them.
I was one of the people whose AAdvantage account was unjustly terminated by AA a few years back. Several people in the telegram group I'm in sued in small claims (with mixed results). AA sent attorneys to each and every one, paying to fly them in and put them up in a hotel to avoid paying any sort of compensation.
Contract of carriage does not require a seat. Wow.
That contract is under the FAA regulation, which requires a seatbelt be available for safety (in case of crash).
How are you going to have a seatbelt without a seat American? And how are you going to operate any commercial flight in the States not under FAA regulation (contract of carriage cannot exist in a vacuum).
This is a truly dumb argument and...
Contract of carriage does not require a seat. Wow.
That contract is under the FAA regulation, which requires a seatbelt be available for safety (in case of crash).
How are you going to have a seatbelt without a seat American? And how are you going to operate any commercial flight in the States not under FAA regulation (contract of carriage cannot exist in a vacuum).
This is a truly dumb argument and they're hoping the small claims judge knows absolutely nothing, but it doesn't cost them to make up a nonsense argument since only a couple hundred $$ is on the line.
Good on ya for pointing out this story as it doesn't truly deserve a class action (this specific incident probably happens somewhat infrequently).
I can tell you from experience with several small kids, other airlines were cool with me standing up near the restroom/exit to bounce my kid to sleep. American was not. Obligated to sit even though the seatbelt sign was off. Kid screamed her head off and couldn't fall asleep. I just dead-pan stared the flight attendant while doing my best to calm the child. Not the worst thing ever but certainly not fun. No real practical or policy reason for it either. FAA regulation says that stuff cannot block the exit row and any unexpected crash (by the pilots) probably is gonna be a mountain and nobody is walking away. If it's expected, I would certainly return to my seat. Just a lack of common sense by the flight attendant, but not worth arguing as she's got a job to do and just needs me to say "yes ma'am" so she can move on. But some "compassion" on the flight crews behalf can make up for a lack of detailed policy understanding.
Mom will lose this lawsuit; it's a foregone conclusion. Everyone's righteous indignation here will melt away in the fullness of time, and AA will continue on. "The dogs bark, and the caravan passes on".
Wanna get angry about something, get angry about DJT trying to stay in power through lies, even though he's a double dumbass dickhead.
Sir, this is a Wendy's
Pete Dickmen is triggered.
Was the seat the woman purchased for the baby sold to another passenger when it was determined that the baby would be held rather than occupy the seat purchased?
This important detail is left out of this story.
If that seat went out empty, the passenger's argument for a claim is much weaker.
Specious argument by American that they don't owe passengers a seat. Promising carriage but not a seat? Federal regulations require passengers to be seated and buckled. American cannot offer conveyance in violation of federal law so they must offer a seat to every passenger they offer carriage to. This had bad management decision written all over it. Will cost more to fight this in attorney fees and bad PR then the ticket is worth.
Not sure if small claims court can set precedents, but maybe American and its attorneys have decided it's better to risk getting a common sense judgment against itself. And on the off chance it gets a win with its argument it can bus you to your destination hours late and not owe you anything. You're not getting an airplane seat on that case...
I will fly any airline other than American or Delta. My favorites are Qatar, Emeritus, Singapore, and the German airline, I will The US would allow foreign airlines to our flight paths because American Airlines are the rudest, most uncomfortable and anti customer I have ever flown, and I fly around the world often.
Emeritus may not be serving Tulsa every day of the week
polarbear wins best comment of the week
I'm generally against litigation because I think America is sue-happy, but in this instance - which highlights how poorly US passengers are treated by the US3 - I wish there were some sort of pro-bono or we-don't-get-paid-unless-you-get-paid anti-airline law firm that would take this to "real" court, that is, not small claims. Start tacking on emotion suffering and other intangibles and up the ante to several million. Airlines aren't going to change their ways unless...
I'm generally against litigation because I think America is sue-happy, but in this instance - which highlights how poorly US passengers are treated by the US3 - I wish there were some sort of pro-bono or we-don't-get-paid-unless-you-get-paid anti-airline law firm that would take this to "real" court, that is, not small claims. Start tacking on emotion suffering and other intangibles and up the ante to several million. Airlines aren't going to change their ways unless they're penalized and no branch of our government seems to care to do that. This feels like it'd be a perfect base for Pete to take on for clout.
Based on your suggestion to sue for millions, your initial statement of you being generally against litigation is a lie...
Another reason I have not flown AA in 15 years. They act as if customers are a necessary evil.
American Airlines is horrible for standing up for the passengers. I hope I never have to fly with them again. They should know their own policies and stand by them at all times. Training, training and even more training.
Since the traveler did what the airline required, and it was the flight attendants fault for not knowing the rules American should just refund the cost of the seat.
Is the cost of the seat worth the bad publicity?
Yeah, I'm surprised they didn't just capitulate. Surely sending someone to small claims court in whatever city she's based in was already more expensive the ticket. They could even require her to sign an NDA or something (which I think is always some BS, but that's not the point).
I guess they just don't give a shit. Captured markets and all that.
This is very similar to the Streisand Effect. Had they refunded even just 1/2 the miles since they had no issues on the Dallas-Tallahassee flight; this probably wouldn’t be a problem.
But they were looking at the trees (individual issue) rather than the forest (is this a problem overall)
If AA isn't required to provide a passenger a seat, how does it plan to get that passenger from origin to destination? Standees are not allowed on planes.
Just strap them to a crate in the cargo hold.
Surely it would have been cheaper and also way less of a PR disaster to have just refunded her. This is crazy.
This is another of those situations where AA needs to carefully pick its battles.
This is not a battle a wise company would pick. AA should have quietly refunded the ticket, remind flight attendants of the infant seating rules, and move on to more important things.
I just thought of something. They may not want to set a precedent or open the floodgates re 2 and unders. The fact that the FA thought she didn’t need to seat anything under 2 is interesting in that it shows, in what she was told, the mindset of AA. That age 2 is where the FAA rules end. It seems to be about liability and where they’ll stand in a lawsuit ie if not...
I just thought of something. They may not want to set a precedent or open the floodgates re 2 and unders. The fact that the FA thought she didn’t need to seat anything under 2 is interesting in that it shows, in what she was told, the mindset of AA. That age 2 is where the FAA rules end. It seems to be about liability and where they’ll stand in a lawsuit ie if not forced to care about babies and toddlers, they won’t. I wish an attorney would take this on. It sounds like it could be an important case.
She must have a copy of the FA Report filed 4 days later if she knows about it, or was it just mentioned in AA’s response? She needs to get with the Court, probably the DA’s office , and get some assistance in filing this sm claims suit. They will help w the rules for discovery ie getting that Report if she doesn’t have it. It would be interesting to know what the FA put...
She must have a copy of the FA Report filed 4 days later if she knows about it, or was it just mentioned in AA’s response? She needs to get with the Court, probably the DA’s office , and get some assistance in filing this sm claims suit. They will help w the rules for discovery ie getting that Report if she doesn’t have it. It would be interesting to know what the FA put in that Report for them to respond as they did. Also, contact numbers of witnesses doesn’t automatically equal Witnesses. She may ask questions like do I need their statements, if they are willing to give them, notarized or just signed. I forget, but I feel like a bunch of info is missing here that one should have before going to Court.
What does the DA's office have to do with this suit? It is a civil case in small claims. No way a DA's gets involved. It's not the DA's job to get involved or even help.
No DA is going to get involved. It's a small claims civil matter. She might be right but she should realize that at best she will get the cost of a ticket and reimbursement of court fees. She could hire an attorney but that would be costly and financially not worth it. AA is betting she goes away when she realizes the hassle of filing a case and needing to spend at least half a day in a small claims court.
Can’t wait for her to walk into the airport and take all their computers and equipment till it reach 5k or the limit and walk out the door with it! Not just the display take the hard drives also! Just plan foolish of the .
Ridiculous. More money is wasted on attorney fees rather than offering a generous settlement and an apology.
Airlines should back up their employees when they are in the right. But this was obviously not the case. The flight attendant was plainly in the wrong. AA should reimburse the customer for the seat not provided and provide some re-education.
AA deserves to be taken to the cleaners. We need more consumer protection laws for the airlines industry.
Good on the FA for owning up to the mistake halfway through the flight. We all make them, but geez that sucks for the parent. However, what happened to the extra seat? Did the Infant end up sitting there for the rest of the flight or did a standby grab it?
My initial reaction was being appalled at AA for the lack of empathy and not providing a refund of miles (even just a portion...
Good on the FA for owning up to the mistake halfway through the flight. We all make them, but geez that sucks for the parent. However, what happened to the extra seat? Did the Infant end up sitting there for the rest of the flight or did a standby grab it?
My initial reaction was being appalled at AA for the lack of empathy and not providing a refund of miles (even just a portion - assuming*) as a good will gesture. If the non lap infant didn't end up using the seat, and no miles were refunded, that's just really crappy. Weird, but as a parent of a small child, this (perhaps irrationally) did move the needle as far as staying as an AA elite since the Jetblue partnership ended.
We need more people to take airlines to court for this type of situations to reduce the incentives to act like a-holes... incredible...
This is such a bad faith argument. American is conflating the responsibilities and authority of the FA (enforce any necessary safety measures from their perspective) with the responsibility of the company as a whole (adhere to their contractual obligations with their customers). This argument is akin to saying "the pilots requested additional fuel, which they got, but since they pilot has absolute authority over how much fuel they carry, we're not responsible for paying for...
This is such a bad faith argument. American is conflating the responsibilities and authority of the FA (enforce any necessary safety measures from their perspective) with the responsibility of the company as a whole (adhere to their contractual obligations with their customers). This argument is akin to saying "the pilots requested additional fuel, which they got, but since they pilot has absolute authority over how much fuel they carry, we're not responsible for paying for the amount above our projections".
So is there any policy against sticking passengers in the cargo hold (as long as they put in a few seats with seat belts)? That would also get the passenger from A to B.
If the FA decides I need to do a monkey dance to prove that I can listen and follow safety instructions, I guess it would be also be justifiable, in AA's opinion, to kick me off if I don't comply.
These terms, and AA's interpretation of them, are absolutely absurd.
This story and AA’s response demonstrate just how much hate they have for passengers as a company. I was a UA hub hostage in two different cities for 12 years and have been an AA hub hostage for 3. All of my worst experiences on UA were better than my average experience on AA.
So many of their employees just have complete contempt for humans. It’s part of the company culture.
Feels like it would have been cheaper for AA just to refund the ticket than to actually spend the time to write this response and go to court, particularly given the unique circumstances of this case.
Corporate America, am I right?
Indeed, as the court will likely rule in the passenger's favour given that it is reasonable
The only thing dumber than the FA’s misunderstanding of the rules is AA management’s decision not to credit back the AAdvantage miles.
Actually as an FAA inspector the FA was right
@ Timtwa123 -- Could you provide a link to the relevant policy? So American's published policy is incorrect then?
The alleged FAA “inspector” seems to have disappeared. They could’ve simply quoted the FAAR code which is found in all updated Flight Crew Manuals and on the FAA.gov website. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-G/part-121/subpart-K/section-121.311
I do have an FAA license in my wallet.
Seems like the court issue will be that she paid for a seat, per airline rules, then the airline failed to adhere to it's own rules. She could have flown both kids for free, also by the rules, if she knew that another kind person would be willing to hold the 2nd child. This nonsense argument that the FA has the right to deny boarding, though true, is a red herring because the FA never...
Seems like the court issue will be that she paid for a seat, per airline rules, then the airline failed to adhere to it's own rules. She could have flown both kids for free, also by the rules, if she knew that another kind person would be willing to hold the 2nd child. This nonsense argument that the FA has the right to deny boarding, though true, is a red herring because the FA never said she judged the child unfit to fly. The bottom line is that the mother paid for something that was later incorrectly denied by the airline. Refund granted.
As an FAA inspector, the FA was not right.
This is egregious behavior by AA. Thank you for bringing this to light.