United Airlines Flight To Israel Diverts Due To Bizarre Crew Seat Dispute

Almost certainly it was a power trip by both the United crew and the passenger.

Not sure we need retraining. Airlines are pretty clear about following crewmember instructions. If they tell you to get out of the jump seat, get out of the jump seat. In case of emergency, I want action. I don't want an FA thinking "oh wait, in my training they told me there are levels of response and shades of gray and what am I supposed to do here and if I do it wrong will I get fired or disciplined." There are some places where I am fine not having rights, and at 35000 feet is one of them.

Not excusing his behaviour, but the fact he wasn't escorted off by law enforcement or charged (at least not yet) speaks volumes. [Looks at United]

Well, if you don't want cabin crew to think how to de-escalate the situation, or at least not provoke a completely unnecessary conflict, then you'll get more air rage, more diversion and more unpleasant experiences for everyone. What most people want is a peaceful flight and civilised solution of any problems.

I don't understand what is it with Americans not understanding that policing with consent is far more successful strategy than using force wherever possible. It works very well elsewhere in the world and incidents like the one described in the article are far less common in regions where crews aren't trained to become minitrumps.

Not sure why you would base a story on tweets and video from such a partisan anti-choice, anti-gay, retro religious activist.

One of the issues here is that American carriers generally don't have an actual "leadership" role on board. That is, the purser isn't really the boss of the team, and the pilots view themselves as an effectively separate chain of control and management.

So if any ONE FA is having a really bad day and wants to push the issue, no one inside the "org" is going to stop them, and they'll just turn that plane around.

The theory I assume is CRM related, but in practice it's more like terrible outcomes of badly designed union rules.

Although the FAs primary role is for "safety", because there are so few actual safety issues in modern aviation, their practical actual job is 99.999999% customer service. But the role is not structured for customer service, it's structured for safety. The mismatch is evident on almost every US carrier flight.

Airlines should write in the contract of carriage that disruptive behavior like this can lead to these penalties:

1) Cancellation of return flight without refund
2) Closure of mileage account, including forfeiture of miles
3) Suspensions or permanent bans from flying the airline
4) Referral to broader "no fly lists" across airlines

So that in a situation like this, where a passenger is being annoying and disruptive but not necessarily dangerous, FAs and pilots can make a decision to take other kinds of action

The passenger was told not to sit in the crew jump seat. He presumably argued and certainly didn't follow their instructions. It's pretty simple, here. This son of a bitch caused a diversion, inconveniencing passengers, crew, the airline, etc...and thus should have his flying privileges suspended for a time, made to pay a fine. This isn't about passenger and crew dynamics. Just fucking follow the crew instructions and don't argue. He had the option to sit in a few minutes (on the toilet) or back at his seat, or if absolutely necessary, on the floor, so long as the crew didn't object. C'mon.

I think an important point not brought up in the article is passenger rules inside Israeli airspace. If you have a passenger not listening to crew member instruction earlier in the flight then it could be a much larger problem at the end of the flight with huge consequences.

Ben, lately you want to comment on the "bad" in a story even before we read it and make up our own minds.

The disgruntled passenger, the horrible cruise ship line.

Make up your mind whether you want to present the facts, as you barely know them, or be judge, jury snd executioner.

This is getting to the point, I don't even care to read here because you've already passed judgement.

@Ben I ebelueve you have the flights wrong. The diversion and return to EWR was Saturday nights UA90, they scheduled a replacement UA3040 at 8pm Sunday. Sundays UA90 also had issues, and ultimately was scheduled for 1:16PM monday

Ok dude, it was not a seat dispute, the passenger was not following flight crew instructions not to seat in the jumpseat. Bizarre seat dispute lol

The problem with referral to broader no fly lists is that airline employees (whether cabin crew, flight crew, or management) do make mistakes, and however good the appeal process is in theory, practice is a different matter.

Perhaps the same issue that makes many opinion-driving Americans feel it's safer for most people to have guns.

It’s not the jump seat, simply the last rows that were ‘designated’ for cabin crew to sit on.

The USA’s service culture is definitely the worst in the world. If the same thing happened in any Asia countries, this cabin attendant and the pilot that decided to turn around will be fired immediately. But of course, such bogus things will never happen in these carriers.

In civilised countries people are not simply sacked although the USA has few rights unlike Europe. Asian countries and the gulf discriminate and have almost no employment legislation so of course it’s simpler to dismiss someone.

If the passenger did not comply with crew instructions and was not in his designated seat he was in breach of the conditions of carriage.

In general you cannot apply no fly lists between airlines. If a passenger is banned on United, he or she cannot be prohibited from travelling on Lufthansa or American.

The comments above are already in most airlines’ conditions of carriage.

Hard to believe there wasn't an air marshall onboard a Tel Aviv flight and if so why didn't the marshal get involved?

lol this is incoherent

It’s important to note that typically the FAA will issue a fine or FBI will follow up with charges after the crew has written up their statements. Local PD doesn’t always have cause or need to arrest the passenger unless they fail to comply with the PD on arrival.

“This is getting to the point, I don't even care to read here…”

The Points Guy is looking for followers, go look there.

This is a new low for authoritarian flight crews exercising their post 9/11 super powers.
Sitting on a jump seat during cruise is a safety concern?
How about de-escalate rather than escalating.

First they came for the drug junkie, and no one speak out.
Because you're not intoxicated.
Then they came for asking eye masks, and no one speak out.
Because you're not asking anything from the crew.
Then they came for the jump seat, and no one speak out.
Because you're not sitting near the wrong people.

Then they came for you and there was no one left to speak for you.

Crew instructions, regardless of anything (facts, truth, merit), is holier than the Ten Commandments.

Moses couldn't even get you across the sea when you get diverted.

Air Marshalls are not, generally, asked to resolve seating disputes between intransigent passengers and power-drunk flight attendants.

"Just follow the crew instructions and don't argue. "

Sounds very authoritarian.

Can't believe most people here think "Just follow the crew instructions and don't argue." is ok but are still calling out North Korea, or Russia. (Not that I condone either position)

See the hypocrisy here?

Bet he won't do that again!

Sure, guns.
That's why FOX is running stories of armed homeowners stopping robberies, while CNN is running stories of armed homeowners shooting harmless people who they feel threaten. Nether are running both type of stories.

The media propaganda is driving Americans apart and that's a very big problem.

While there is a time and place for everything, having spent umpteen flight hours at 35k feet on travel both domestically and internationally for work and otherwise…. I see a sense of entitlement with passengers who basically think they can do whatever they want. My opinion is just that an opinion… in this case he sat down was asked to get up and likely very likely argued that he was doing nothing wrong just like he was trying to do at the airport…. Instead of just saying hey ok got it….. the a flight attendant is in their rights to ask a passenger to vacate crew seats… I really do think it goes to this sense of entitlement whether one recognised it or not…. And a case of “but why”…. 35k feet in the air … yeah…I’m going to listen to instruction like it or not. This guy was too busy being righteous…

I was a FA for 32 years. People sat on jumps seats from time to time, a discretionary thing waiting for the washroom, elderly, frail, etc. Having said that, if this jump seat was in the galley area and the crew were busy with service, (2hrs in) how would be impeding their work area and service duties. Also was he there a few minutes or as some pax would do, planted himself there for quite a while, which is a definite Nono. The jump seat is only for flight personnel or to be used during a medical emergency, yet we used to have discretion as to who and when to use, as stated we do not know what he said to FA, if he appeared to be a threat etc.

Following a crew member's instructions and not arguing with them when they are responsible for the safety and well being of everyone on the flight is not a symptom of authoritarianism - it's following safety protocols that one agrees to when one purchases a ticket (see also: conditions of carriage/passenger rules and fares). It's truly twisted and sickening that you would liken this situation to what Jews and others experienced during WWII and the Holocaust by invoking Niemöller, as you did in your 12:29pm comment.

This is a flight to Israel. They were the first country to required reinforced cockpit door on El Al before other airlines did it because of the flight hijacking. The security protocol was probably triggered when this person started arguing with the flight attendant next to the cockpit and he will not go back to host seat. The FA does not have the authority to turn the flight back. It’s the pilot’s call and if the pilot assessed that this might be a potential safety issue with the whole flight then he made that call. This would have been avoided if he just complied and get back to his seat and wait for his turn.

Flying into Israel you have to stay seated for the last hour of the flight or they’re not supposed to land. I think it would’ve been worse to get to Israel and have to divert somewhere else because some guy didn’t want to listen.

It’s not the last rows of seats. On those A/C there’s a crew rest area above that FA go and take their rest. There’s beds for them there.

It’s a HUGE safety issue because in the event of unexpected turbulence or decompression, that’s where you go and secure yourself. If you have random people siting there then you have no where to go quick enough to secure yourself and possibly put a oxygen mask on. At that altitude you have less than 30 seconds before you fair due to lack of oxygen.

It’s not anything authoritatian or political. Its a private company on a privately owned aircraft with rules and regulations that must be followed. If you don’t follow them then there’s consequences.

What the he77 are you trying to say exactly? Try again.

So what.

Let's not jump to conclusions since we weren't there...
Was this guy not listening to crew member instructions? Absolutely. Was this guy being an argumentative jerk? Almost certainly.
Ok yeah let's not jump to any conclusions since we don't know the facts and none of us were there.

TPG doesn't care. Did you ready about his real estate deal and AmEx?
He doesn't need followers.

The flight attendant should be fired for convincing the pilot to turn the flight around. This cost the airline thousands of dollars and inconvenienced hundreds of passengers for nothing! If you’re not going to arrest the passenger and fine them, then nothing should be done in these situations. Otherwise the passenger should be held accountable and fined enough to cover the costs of turning the flight around and compensating every passenger.

Honestly, what's the real problem with sitting on the FAs' jump seat while waiting for the lavatory? Maybe the FA wanted to sit down or something; couldn't the FA wait? I thought the name of the game was cutomer service, not power tripping.

Incorrect. Mist flights, especially international ones, have a purser or lead FA. Sometimes two pursers; one for first/business class and the other for coach.

It's like the cops closing a major street for hours because some idiot jaywalked. Out of control power freaks.

What's next, making a drink yourself when they're busy? Give me a break. Stand or don't get up until it's free. This guy was an entitled lazy loser. Period. And UA should be charging him all excess charges associated with the delay.

I also was a F/A. Pax do not realize (nor do we communicate it) that there are Off Limits places like the jumps and the galley. I suspect a very senior crew, and very poor communication and clearly poor de-escalation. Sad. I feel for everyone impacted.

Lots of Israelis in Airline News lately. they know they can always Play the "Anti Semite" Card or make $$$$$$$$ by playing the "Victim" Card. Almost All of the time they get away with it.
There must be a Lot of money in "Travel Blogs" because it is mostly a Hebrew entity. Nothing personal Mr."onemileatatime". you are very Good and Fair in what you do campare to VFTW or TPG,etc.

Atleast he doesn't push his judgements on us.

We are perfectly capable of reading the story and deciding for ourselves.

In fact, I see the title and opening line has been changed since the original so I must have hit a point...or a nerve.

This passenger should be blacklisted for travel in UA or any US carriers for that matter. he caused financial loss to the airline by behaving in unprofessional manner, which resulted in the diversion/return of the flight to base.
UA should notify all other IATA airlines thru IATA for the information of other airlines so that they will be cautious
in accepting this "arrogant and defying" passenger, for the safety of aircraft, passengers and crew members.

I am a retired airline officer from an international airline. crew seat is crew seat and it is meant for them only
and no one can sit there. for example, a college principal or school principal seat can be occupied by principal only and no student can sit there. same way, people have to respect others.

All he had to do was do what the flight attendant instructed him to do. A passenger to does not have to pose a safety risk to be removed from an aircraft. They can be removed for being disruptive or simply bad behavior

One reason those seats are not to be used for passenger seating is that in the event of an emergency (think explosive decompression or severe turbulence) the F/A must have immediate access to the jumpseat for their safety.

Your kidding me, right? I do think the FA/Crew over reactedHERE, BUT. and a BIG BUT: No one should ever sit in the jump seat but the crew, unless specifically told to by the crew. Period. It probably was latched up too, and he just pulled it down and plopped in it. So rude and weird.

Your kidding me, right? I do think the FA/Crew over reactedHERE, BUT. and a BIG BUT: No one should ever sit in the jump seat but the crew, unless specifically told to by the crew. Period. It probably was latched up too, and he just pulled it down and plopped in it. So rude and weird.

Huh? Are you serious? Your saying a private company asking you to behave like a adult for a few hours is anything remotely close to authoritarianism is absolutely laughable.

Every airline has a Flight Operations Incident Report, or something with a similar name, as well as safety reports. The FAA will be interested in hearing about this, and I'm sure the Captain filled these out after the return. The repercussions could be pretty severe, with fines over $40,000 dollars for disruptions to flights. It's my guess this man will be getting a summons to Federal Court in the next few weeks.

Your response is exactly what a happy Russian would say about Putin, not a symptom of authoritarianism.

In the age of extreme propaganda, soon there will be no one is left to defend you. As you have witnessed here.

By the way, you should learn more about Niemöller. Especially his views before WWII, he even admit he is antisemite. His verse isn't just about Jews or Holocaust or Hitler, it's his regret about not acting soon enough to prevent the rise of an unstoppable power. Something that present day propaganda is more effective than those times.

But how and who determines what is being disruptive or simply bad behavior?

And you can find better ways to communicate that rather than locking down the whole campus to remove the student from the school principal seat.

I'm sure if this passenger was very disruptive, in the age of smartphones, we would have seen much more of what happen on TikTok.

And if every IATA airlines will be cautious in accepting this "arrogant and defying" passenger. I'm sure your ex-, would happily slip some gifts to some airline to make sure @Natarajan Sivsubramanian will never set foot on a plane ever again. See how dangerous that could be?

I feel bad for how heavily the other pax were inconvenienced by the decision to return to EWR. If the guy was assessed to pose a legitimate threat to safety and had a passport with visa free access to Canada, Greenland or Iceland, why not just divert briefly and have him removed? Then the flight could continue to TLV without crew timing out and not inconvenience everybody! And the inconvenience to this guy would have been huge!

I’m a flight attendant, if someone’s in my crew seat they will always be politely asked to move.
And 99% of the time they will do so whilst apologising.
Every now and again you will be asked why but most of these will understand when you explain it to them.
There are several reasons why passengers cannot sit there, emergency situations when we need immediate access to our crew seats and the emergency equipment they contain, decompression scenarios, turbulence. But also because passengers have been known to break things in the crew seat station either intentionally or unintentionally.
If a passenger started an argument after all this (and it’s been known to happen) then it’s because they want to have an argument, so that’s what I see has happened here because it’s not very often a crew member would start an argument like that.

At face value, very poorly managed by the flight attendant and captain.

And could it be possible that this passenger needed to sit down, for one reason or another?

Well, I think there should be a way to determine if the turn around was really necessary. The problem is how to determine this. I think it stems from the flight staff not being very polite or having an attitude, but it cost the airline a lot of money. The problem if you penalize the staff is there could be a real emergency or a real reason to turn back and it could make it worse. In a case like this I think the directly involved crew should have been responsible and the passenger given consequences for not following the staff instruction, and for his anger, and disrupting the others on the flight. I wonder the real reason he needed to go back. There's probably more to it.

In such a confrontation with a passenger I suggest the actual attendant should back off immediately and a different attendant with no history with that passenger endeavour to resolve the situation. Brinkmanship in such a situation is not the best way to solve a situation.

Eh?

The guy was speaking Hebrew in the video, so he was probably on his way to Tel Aviv on another airline within a day.

Common sense is at a premium these days.

I think you misunderstood his comment. He never said there isn’t a purser on every flight. He said the purser has no authority over the crew. And he is actually, unfortunately, pretty spot on with his entire analysis.

Flight crews need to start being held accountable for this nonsense as much as the passengers. They’re not the saints people keep making them out to be.

hand him a bill for ALL the related costs to the airline, crew and passengers and fuel. then ban for life.

But he did sit.. btw, it’s strange that this restriction is almost solely a imposed by U.S. airlines, never by Israeli airlines

They did the right thing in turning around. Safety if ALL passengers comes first.