United Airlines’ return to JFK doesn’t seem to be going quite as planned. Well, at least not as United planned, though personally this is kind of how I saw things working out…
Continue reading: Uh Oh: United Airlines Downgrades JFK Flights
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There's a lot of that going on. My flight from IST to IAD on Turkish Airlines in October was downgraded from a new 787 to an old 777. And my flight home from LHR to IAD in January on BA was downgraded from an A350-1000 with club suites to a 787 :-(.
You ignore the fact that all of Delta’s seats in Delta One between JFK and SFO/LAX are the same old 757s with 2x2 configuration. So United is matching Delta’s product here. It seems like the legacy airlines have all thrown in the towel on domestic business-class, choosing not to compete with JetBlue Mint.
The irony is that United used 757s on its transcon flights before it left JFK years ago, pre-covid, Delta predominantly has used 767s on JFK to LAX but 757s to SFO, and now Delta is using mostly 767s on both routes including 767-400s with their new 767 suites.
No, they are not. DL uses 767s on some frequencies but overall, yes, the differences are marginal and DL's non-refurbed 767s in Delta One sport a very dated cabin and seat.
Get over the JFK self important people navel gazing. There isn't much premium demand period at Kennedy right now and plenty at EWR.
Hold the slots until there is a business market.
Looks like Heathrow called and wants its 763s back.
ORD-LHR and EWR-LHR are each picking up a 763 frequency in October, which is where these were originally planned.
This is just not true. A lot of DL planes flying these routes are 767s, with 1-2-1 configuration. If Delta remembers to load pillows and blankets (and that is a very big IF!) these are very comfortable flights.
I believe Delta uses a mix of 767s with lie flat seats on this route as well. Also cannot forget about American with their premium heavy 321T's
@FNT Delta Diamond: Delta flies 767-400 planes between LAX and JFK. These are widebodies in a 1-2-1 configuration in Delta One, and the seats are beautiful. United and Delta are equivalent now, but with the United downgrade, Delta's seats will be much better.
1) The general traveler probably isn't aware that UA is flying from JFK currently
2) DL and AA offer more ground services at JFK currently
3) UA is just holding the slots until they figure it out
The recent JFK LAX DL flight I was on was full
I flew several times in the past few months from New York to Los angels.
Business class always gets full less minute
Disappointing. I’m booked on a 763 LAX/JFK flight in late sept — hope they don’t swap it out.
No interest in flying into EWR, but J on UA’s 752 is not compelling to say the least. Guess it’ll be JetBlue for me.
The caption under the photo of United Polaris cabin describing it as ‘gorgeous’… I never have gotten the attraction to this cabin design… I think the grey and faux-steel look is about as inviting as a cold grey winter day… is it just me? I’m sure the service is nice, but it doesn’t look inviting to me at all.
Instead of gloating about a short-term setback, let's see what the situation is like in the next 2 to 5 years. I tend to think it will be a bit different, although there's no way to know.
I'd say that's an overstatement. United is still flying premium three-class planes from EWR, and the Biz cabin (Polaris hard product) is quite nice. American is still flying premium three-class planes from JFK, with a decent Biz cabin and a pretty nice First cabin. Mint is of course still the champ, but it's not like you can't get a nice flight from NYC to SFO/LAX on another carrier if you are on the right aircraft.
Late Sept you'll probably be ok. The cutoff appears to be in early Oct. I was in Premium Plus (premium Econ cabin) and had a 757 aircraft swap for an Oct 19 flight. They said that if I took it (in Econ), they'd refund the fare difference and give each traveler 5,000 miles as a goodwill gesture. I instead chose to refund it and book from EWR instead on a ticket that turned out to be $100 cheaper (there are really some excellent deals on Premium Plus sometimes). I would have preferred the original flight, because I much prefer the 767 to a 777, but in any case, I think you'll be fine.
I'm glad you covered this. But one other thing that needs mentioning about United's JFK experience is...not only is there no lounge, but there is no dedicated TSA PreCheck line! The United people were very apologetic about it, but I had to show my boarding pass to *every* single TSA staffer to get routed into the correct internal line (after being in the common external line). It was very chaotic, a *very* non-premium experience, and it would have made me think again before booking from JFK (since EWR is an equally good option for me).
So, now the shabby planes can match the shabby airport experience. It's too bad, because there were some really cheap Premium Plus flights from JFK, and that cabin actually feels premium on the 767 in its 2x2x2 config, and Polaris is even better in 1x1x1. Hopefully biz class will be somewhat cheaper than at EWR; it should be, since it's not nearly as modern and nice on the 757, and the airport experience is terrible.
I find the Polaris hard seat better than the mint (private suite door notwithstanding).
The Jetblue IFE features/software actually stinks compared to United…when you take DIRECTV out of it.
Adding to the point from @Pete, I suspect that this pathetic downgrade by United partially reflects fierce competition from jetBlue. Even though B6 flies narrowbody on this (and every) route, full lie-flat at competitive prices is hard to compete on transcon.
Yeah, here’s hoping.
What’s crazy is that the LAX/EWR prices have gone thru the roof. $3k to fly J in a 752? Hard pass…
Nobody is gloating.
United doesn't even have long-term JFK slots so far as we know.
It is a given in every market that competitors will adjust their strategies when another carrier enters the market.
Delta's capacity right now in the JFK- LAX/SFO is at a higher percentage of what it was 2 years ago than any other carrier. They clearly don't intend to make room for any other carrier to grow.
Let's also remember that Alaska is on the ropes in the transcon markets which United is probably betting on winning but AS doesn't have a premium product on par with AA, B6 or DL.
It may mean UA is seeing leisure travel coming back but not business.
But it definitely means UA can operate the same route with 4 flight attendants instead of 5 as is the requirement on the 767, which means that service in all cabins will see a reduction in quality. Thanks Kirby!
@FNT Delta Diamond
You probably ignore the fact that you ignore the fact aka. don't have the up to date facts. (I give you benefit of doubt)
Last year when things restarted, I think DL did fly only 757 on JFK to SFO/LAX on a very short time. Then it was 757 for SFO and 763 for LAX. Then it was Mixed of 757/767. And I believe these days it's 763/764 for SFO and 757/763/764 for LAX.
I don't think Mint is way superior than Flagship/Polaris/DeltaOne. It might be slightly better value for price but the rest is personal preference and luck of the day.
And it might feel like they threw the towel because the legacies haven't fully resume normal service yet. I still remember last year when flying premium transcon was just like domestic F but with double the price,
Way hard pass. I'll do see some in the $639 range here and there if you have lead time, but mostly it's pretty ugly. There are also some 50K/60K miles flights sometimes but that's as good as it gets, and it's usually around 100K. If I didn't prefer to connect through to SBA rather than drive/Uber from LAX, I'd probably fly Mint more often (or frankly whichever J transcon is cheapest).
My experience flying to SFO last Friday was quite different. There was an agent checking boarding passes. She checked mine and then sent me to the PreCheck line where I was the only person. I went through security check in no more than 5 min.
If admitting that there is little premium traffic then why the criticism for cutting down the seat total after the summer? UAL I think is holding on to slots until they can put true premium product, from check in on, at JFK.
One my motivations for flying to SFO last Friday was to check out the reinstated UA JFK-SFO service. The experience was quite smooth and pleasant. both ways. The metal was a 767-300.
I'd booked a premium economy ticket for the outbound JFK-SFO flight and used 10 PlusPoints to request an upgrade to Polaris business. For the inbound SFO-JFK flight I'd booked a Polaris Biz seat outright.
About 24h before departure, I got an email from United with the subject line : "You’ve been upgraded!"
Hi DCS,
We’re excited to let you know we’re upgrading your seat to United First/Business for your flight from New York(JFK) to San Francisco(SFO), departing August 20.
We’ve deducted 10 PlusPoints from your account.
Cool. Breakfast was served and beverages, including, booze, dispensed. The crew was outstanding...both on the outbound and inbound flights.
In early September, I will again fly on UA out of JFK, but this time to LAX on my way to HNL, on a Biz ticket. I believe that it will still be a 767-300 then.
Since JFK-SFO/LAX is not an itinerary I take frequently, I want to "wait and see" what will actually transpire before commenting too much about my take on the apparent switch back to the 757-200 (p.s.) metal.
Nope. Delta is now using a mix of 764s and 763s with 1-2-1 Business seats on both JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO. No 757s in these two markets currently.
I am reposted this as I had intended to be a new comment rather than a reply to my own previous comment.
It seems that the commenting utility has some bugs, like posting a comment, but then hang, displayig 'Posting..." that goes away only after a refresh; or, as just happened, it does not seem clear the "buffer" from a prior post. The thing is, it is random...
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One of my motivations for flying to SFO last Friday was to check out the reinstated UA JFK-SFO service. The experience was quite smooth and pleasant. both ways. The metal was a 767-300.
I'd booked a premium economy ticket for the outbound JFK-SFO flight and used 10 PlusPoints to request an upgrade to Polaris business. For the inbound SFO-JFK flight I'd booked a Polaris Biz seat outright.
About 24h before departure, I got an email from United with the subject line : "You’ve been upgraded!"
Hi DCS,
We’re excited to let you know we’re upgrading your seat to United First/Business for your flight from New York(JFK) to San Francisco(SFO), departing August 20.
We’ve deducted 10 PlusPoints from your account.
Cool. Breakfast was served and beverages, including, booze, dispensed. The crew was outstanding...both on the outbound and inbound flights.
In early September, I will again fly on UA out of JFK, but this time to LAX on my way to HNL, on a Biz ticket. I believe that it will still be a 767-300 then.
Since JFK-SFO/LAX is not an itinerary I take frequently, I want to "wait and see" what will actually transpire before commenting too much about my take on the apparent switch back to the 757-200 (p.s.) metal.
I've done 5 round trips on United out of JFK this year, and economy is always listed as full with business about 50% on busy days, and less so on quiet days.
They were providing op ups, upgrades, and non rev seats in business all the time (one of my flights had economy and premium plus overbooked, and business with 14 blocked seats).
It was great for upgrades (100% over 9 flights), and the buyups were cheap at check-in if that was the route you wanted to go.
I'm not sure that this will do United any favors unless they can utilize these 763s elsewhere, but the 757s seem right sized, if mediocre.
As Ben noted, the 757 actually has more seats than the 767 it is replacing. The problem is that UA's premium configured 767 strategy, just like American's A321T strategy and United's CRJ550s probably never made financial sense.
IN each case, AA and UA were counting on more premium demand to offset the higher costs; the plane burns just about the same amount of fuel as Delta'767-300ERs with 225 seats. Pilot costs are just about the same regardless of the number of passengers.
The primary advantage the 767s had for United is that it had a nice product... but if three other airlines - AA, B6 and DL - all have much larger numbers of premium seats and an established customer base, it is doubtful that UA was going to get the amount of premium revenue that was necessary.
It is also worth nothing that Delta is the passenger airline that operates widebodies from JFK to the west coast and it carries about 2 million pounds of cargo on JFK to LAX. United had the potential to crack into that market including to SFO but cargo can't be the primary decision if the passenger operation didn't generate sufficient revenues.
And, finally, let's remember that United still has about 50 777s grounded because of the Pratt and Whitney engine failure. They don't have the widebody capacity to experiment esp. with the potential of international markets possibly returning after this latest variant peaks - as it certainly will.
United never should have left JFK years ago and probably will not achieve acceptable results given that the 3 largest transcon carriers are all still have much more capacity and a more broad JFK presence than UA. And all of them also have decent sized operations at Newark.
Curious — was it real Precheck, or just a sorta expedited line? (i.e. did you have to remove laptops from bags, etc)
They currently have 19 premium heavy 763's in fleet with 2 more to be mod, and all of them are currently active (except one in HKG for maintenance, but will be back soon). I do not think LHR demand is large enough to attract these 763's away from premium transcon. It is most likely a cost-cut effort rather than sending the planes to Europe.
If UA really wants to expand capacity for leisure (Y) traveling, they could swap their refurbed 76A (30 Polaris + 184 Y) onto this route
Those United planes were amazing. Im a 2 million miler on United. I much prefer JFK and hate EWR. Right now there isn't much premium traffic SFO/LAX - NYC. The UAL planes were an advantage but it had no lounge at JFK that was a major disadvantage. Hopefully they will sort this out. I love the JFK service with the 767!
Curious — was it real Precheck, or just a sorta expedited line? (i.e. did you have to remove laptops from bags, etc)
- LAX
It was real PreCheck. The question I was asked was whether I had more than one laptop. I said I had one laptop and a tablet, so I was told I had to put one of the two in a tray. I said that my TUMI backpack has a TSA-approved laptop pouch that flips out so that I do not have to pull the laptop out. I was told that would be fine. So, I flipped out the laptop pouch and did not have to take out the tablet. The backpack was scanned and I was done, under 5 min.
I should note that this was around 7am, so perhaps there were not that many travelers at that time... but it was 'real' PreCheck.
Just got my emails that I've been downgraded from Premium Economy to Economy SFO-JFK-SFO in early October. I had a bid to upgrade to Business. It's going to be a long flight.
might be a dump but it's a high yielding one where airlines make more money than they do at JFK so whatever.
they're actually not broken - they're doing better financially than every and finally have leadership that knows what they're doing. JFK is a nice but not needed. They made plenty of money at EWR, this is just a chest beating exercise and an ability to try to get slots when there is room.
Capacity is usually fine-tuned to the market, and with corporate travel still in the toilet, I would expect UA to trim seats. AA and DL most likely have all the market share already locked in with the major companies that use these transcon flights, so it's going to be tough for UA to get their foot in the door. Transcon flying is all about price, so it's not going to matter to corporates whether they fly Polaris or not. I would imagine that if someone picks UA out of JFK, it means they usually fly UA. Crummy downgrade, yes, but no big loss for UA or its customers.
Nope. I was booked for Premium JFK-LAX for May of 2022, and already got notified they're swapping the aircraft and bumping us back to economy. Supposedly refunding the difference and crediting 5,000 miles as a goodwill gesture, but not until after the flight is completed.
Interesting point about the 777s. I didn't know that much of their widebody fleet was grounded. It's easy to see how that could have affected their decision withdraw the 767s from JFK. If they predict international markets finally opening up, maybe they want to prioritize them, and with so many 777s grounded they can't have widebodies on both the JFK routes and an expanded international schedule.
JFK is obviously already well-served so if United wanted to entice travelers away from other airlines 4 total flights per day wasn't gonna cut it, regardless of the aircraft type and I don't think the switch to 757's is going to help them much if they're still only offering 4 flights a day. If they wanted to return to JFK, imo they should have committed a little more and also added service to Denver and Houston at least.
The cutoff for across-the-board swaps seems to be October 2021 onward. For now…
The demand is there. Plenty of AA Transcons with only 2-3 J seats 2 weeks out. Granted, F is there but who wants to pay $4k for F when AA Flagship First Dining is closed. Point is, United needs to let go of the slots if they can't be competitive.
Several sites have reported this but Ben here has the closest assessment. Now, he's too nice to say some things unvarnished, so I will say them --
1. This "nice" service was never going to last
2. JFK is not United's focus. They were trying to get a foot in the door, which they did, with some nice toys thrown to the early adopters.
3. Now that other, higher margin routes are opening up (LHR, for example), UA needs its toys back.
4. Real biz-class money to be made is in EWR and LGA.
5. And this is sure to generate some hate comments LOL -- all there's left on JFK routes are cheapskate leisure travelers a day equally cheap (from UA's POV), biz travelers looking for frequent upgrades. UA wants to stuff them in the flying pencil and ride that money flow until the passengers cry "uncle!"
Ok, let the hate mail flow
So tell me Jason, how is a "chest beating exercise" help make them "doing better financially", specifically in JFK. Just because you have monopoly in EWR doesn't mean you should be burning money in JFK.
I have flown the United JFK twice. The 767’s were the only reason to go back to JFK.
Terminal 6 is terrible. United Club gone to Alaska Air , No Clear and TSA Pre on and off depending on time of day. Food and other services in terminal terrible. United started out with lower prices vs EWR. Now the same. Back to EWR where they fly 787’s.
Very disappointed with new service changes.
No United Club. No Clear or TSA Pre at times.
Upgraded 767’s at lower prices were only reason to use vs EWR. Now same price.
Back to EWR.
I live down the road from JFK, and in 61 years I have never used Newark. United used to be a big player at JFK, but they haven't been a significant presence at JFK in a generation. Continental never had a significant presence at Kennedy. In my view, United cannot compete at Kennedy. In case you never saw one, their most beautiful aircraft was the Caravelle.
I took United to and from SFO in August 2021. That was an intresting experience. I went in a window seat and returned in a middle seat on the 767.
JetBlue Mint is hardly “price competitive.”
In fact it’s probably the most expensive premium class transcon service.
One good thing about United’s narrow body premium class is that when traveling with your spouse/partner and you happen to like a window seat, you can do it, as the seats are 2-2. American’s 737s have single seating in each row so you have to be across the aisle. JetBlue has a combination of 2-1 seating so it’s a crap shoot if you want to sit with your partner.
Premium class on the 767 is typically 1-2-1 so it’s either sit separately or no window.
It wasn’t even a switch back to p.s. metal. Even worse, it was a switch to ex-CO 757’s, with *HALF* the business class seats as p.s. 757’s, and 75% less than the 767’s. They no longer even have the p.s. 757’s, as they were older aircraft which were all scrapped or sold after going through 4 interior redo’s in their service life. The interiors of the scrapped p.s. 757’s were NEWER than the 757’s that stayed, which are still only on their 2nd interior since new.