Airlines take very different approaches to long haul first class. Some airlines continue to see a big market for this and invest in the product, while other airlines think business class is sufficient. In many ways, this represents a larger shift we’ve seen over the years, whereby the quality of business class has improved considerably.
Continue reading: Qatar Airways To Eliminate First Class In Future
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
People who can afford to fly international first class can also afford to eat caviar whenever 5th want, so I don’t get the obsessing over in-flight caviar service. Sure, it feels fancy to some and kills time, but doesn’t always fit the time of departure or need for sleep.
I wonder what will happen with the Doha first class lounge.
@ Auspointer -- I don't think there will be any changes there. Qatar Airways still markets the forward cabin on regional flights as first class, and I don't think that will change. Those are most of the people currently accessing the Al Safwa Lounge anyway.
@ Dave -- I'm not sure anyone is obsessing? I'm also not sure I understand the logic of saying that people who can afford caviar on the ground wouldn't enjoy it in the air as something that's included with their ticket price? Surely we can agree that it's possible to differentiate a meal service in first vs. business class, and that some first class passengers may appreciate that, no?
First class Expert here.
I've experience Qatar First class once and wouldn't recommend it. Appart from the cavir, there is nothing special when you compare it with the service on Qsuite.
Nowadays, I fly mostly Japan Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Air France La Premiere (paid ticket only: no points tricks or error fares). These airlines remain the best for First Class service even after COVID
If you are paying for your Own Ticket [instead company]QATAR airways Business class and Suites are great.I dont like Caviar!!!
I flew Qatar ca. 10 times since January, mainly Business, twice First (Cathay fleet, to Maldives and back). The First on Qatar offers a great seat, however the food was mediocre (except for the Kaviar, excellent). Wine Selection including Champagner was ok (Keller white wine was a true find for me). Amenities were the same as business, that included kits made out of paper boxes! I found this unacceptable for First. By the way, I am the only one that hates that diptyque fragrance, way too sweet for men?!
On Business, I had dreadful (and very expensive!) flights to Cape Town a few times this year, with clear cost cutting everywhere (like the mentioned boxed amenity kits, or not enough PJs on board).
Every time I flew to CPT, the cabin was completely full, with many crying babies even in Business, which to a point is of course ok, but not when the cabin is full and people stressed out all around. Qsuites was only on two flights, every other time they changed planes and had us fly in the older setting (while I took great care when booking to have good seats and Qsuites). However, the older seat is actually ok, and I feel a bit cramped in Qsuites, though I love the doors.
Even though I have highest frequent flyer status with Qatar, very easy things do not work on Qatar for me: several times they did not have my preferred meal selection anymore (why do they not start with asking frequent flyers first??), the champagne was always the same these past few months and not very good, and almost always lukewarm. One flight from CPT after changing aircraft, they put me in the last row, as a result I was "enjoying" constant baby cries from the first row of economy right behind me. WHY are they not putting families with babies in the last row of Economy?? That goes for all companies, I guess.
Anyway, my point is, at least with First I know I will be able to sleep and relax. Nowadays, flights are expensive anyway.
For my next flights, I have switched back to Swiss and Emirates First. Business Flights on Qatar between Doha and Vienna do not even offer amenity kits anymore (same as Emirates, but at least they have it in First Class), and it seems to me that service levels used to be way more refined.
Lastly, while bloggers rave about Al Safwa, they now offer only the basic champagne and wines of Business, so clear cost cutting even there.
I am disappointed in Qatar, as you can tell... 😉 End of rant.
Have flown in Q suites and in F on Qatar. The F seat is better than the Q suite in terms of space/comfort. There was more attention to passengers in F than J by far. Not saying J service was bad just that in F the ratio was much better and the service was attentive. The F lounge experience was quite good although I didn't have time to visit the J lounges. So in the end F was clearly better than J it just wasn't that much of a step up. Compared to other carriers F product? I had a flight in LH F on the same trip and it was on par with that when it came to the onboard product. I've flown Emirates in F (older product) and while it is above Qatar F I don't think its the end all be all. I found emirates to be a bit of a letdown to be frank. Compared to the newer SQ F though yea Qatar has no chance of hanging at that level.
If you don't want the caviar Dave then don't order it. Many people like the caviar service. Being able to afford it on the ground does not diminish the enjoyment of it as part of the flight experience. Actually I pretty much only have caviar now when flying first class because it makes for a more memorable flight experience. Anyone can order it in a restaurant nothing very memorable about that.
Agree with Al Baker for once. The Q Suite checks all the boxes for me so even without knowing the price difference between their J and F products, I’d probably never opt for the F product.
Really not that surprising, there is no airline that is actively expanding their F footprint, they are all pulling back or entirely eliminating it. There's not enough passengers willing and able to pay the high cash fares required to support an F cabin, and airlines don't keep cabins around just so points enthusiasts and travel bloggers can book saver award tickets
Oh! The First Class troll is back to the comments section. We missed you!*
* No
I disagree. QR business is miles away from proper first class like La Premier, Emirates or Singapore. Different seat, space, food, alcohol, ground service, lounges or limo service. On top of that not all aircrafts have and will have q suite. Not to mention nowadays they still change aircraft type in a very last moment and you might fly in old and awful 777. No, thank you.
Having flown QR First to Auckland, I was disappointed by the lack of privacy on a 14hr flight on an otherwise extremely comfortable bed. The food and service was great. I wonder how this will impact upon the Al Safawa lounge.
Wrong Qantas is currently offering F class on all A380 and they are normally fully booked. They are also adding 6 x F class to their new A350 LR due in 2025. there is a market from SYD/MEL to LHR, LAX and JFK.
The backbone of Qantas' long-haul fleet is the 787 and A330, neither of which have F...they only fly the A380 to the highest demand, highest yield destinations from Australia (LHR, SIN, HKG, and LAX are the first to come to mind). The A350 is only going to have 6 F seats, vs 14 on the A380, and again only flown to a handful of the highest yield destinations (and the longer the flight, the more worth it paying up for a fancy cabin is, so it's not surprising that on ultra-long haul flights to the highest yield markets, there would be more demand for F). Qantas used to have F on the majority of their long-haul aircraft, and the ones on the 747 were 14-seat cabins. A 6-seat F cabin on one long-haul subfleet when previously there were 14-seat F cabins across the entire long-haul fleet is hardly a ringing endorsement of F demand
Oneworld's first class footprint is definitely shrinking between AA and QR cutting first class, and that's unfortunate, even if the products only represent marginal improvements over their respective business classes.
@Lucky do you have any plans to do any "one last hurrah" trips in Flagship First and burn some SWUs?
As someone who’s flown long-haul business class well over 100 times on around 15 airlines, and long haul first class 0 times - is there something truly so so very incredibly special?
Lucky gets as spoilt as they come talking about first - yeah, right, there’s more personal space and caviar, and good champagne, and sometimes an S class will drive you to the plane 5 minutes ahead of business class. And for all those perks worth $500-$1000, you’re paying 5-10k (round trip) on top of business.
I understand first is for those who can probably afford chartering a jet, but opt in for commercial so 5-10k extra per flight ain’t much.
But realistically - a good business class is 3-5k worldwide; first is 10-18k. Is a slightly bigger seat with a bit caviar up your asss worth the heavy markup?
Agree 100% Dave, same with champagne. The quality of food, along with separate first lounge and pnboard service are the mark of first class. Nice to have champagne and caviar but really academic and arbitrary from a review point of view. My personal view is that the Furst class lounge in Doha and booking business class Middle East flights into F is much more useful than a fee long haul planes with F such as Etihad have. Also, not having dedicated first class lounges and check in at most departure points makes it a little pointless. Emirates is a great example, you may or may not get a dedicated forst class lounge, you may or may not get car service, there may or may not be a shower on board. Don't get me wrong I love Emirates and Etihad and have paid for many J fares out of my own pocket, many on miles and many corporate tickets but I feel Qatar J and the Doha lounge is best all round offering. As it happens I like Tuekish airlines too, just the geographic location make the forst leg too short when flying from Western Europe. Not sure what all my waffling is trying to say, I just responded because I too have heard enough about caviar and champagne.
.. except that the QF A350 will have half the seating capacity of the A380's. So, being fair and comparing cabin capacities, the above comment from Austline must be considered as correct.
The QF A350 is intended to operate ultra-long haul nonstops in tandem with one-stop services, so comparing the A350 alone against an A380 doesn't really make sense...what today is QF1/QF2 SYD-SIN-LHR on an A380 will be replaced with a new QF1/QF2 SYD-LHR nonstop on an A350, and then another one-stop itinerary, which would likely be SYD-PER-LHR on a 787 rather than SYD-SIN-LHR given the SIN route is more competitive and once the A380 is retired, the 787 is the only other long haul plane that QF will fly beyond Asia other than the A350. So when you look at 1 A350 nonstop plus 1 787 one-stop, there will be in total 6 F seats that QF is flying between SYD and LHR, but 94 J seats and 68 PE seats. That compares to the current A380 offering of 14 F / 70 J / 60 PE, and then it becomes quite obvious that QF is emphasizing J at the expense of F just like every other carrier.
Also, even if you look at just QF's A350 vs A380 seat layouts, while the A350 may have "half" the seats of the A380's capacity in total, where they cut that capacity from was not equal. F goes from 14 to 6 (57% reduction), J goes from 70 to 52 (26% reduction), PE goes from 60 to 40 (33% reduction), and Y goes from 341 to 140 (59% reduction). The capacity was not cut equally, it came disproportionately out of Y (understandable given these aircraft are intended to serve the longest and most premium routes) and F (which you would expect to have kept a higher percentage of seats, again because these are intended to serve the longest and most premium routes). So even on an aircraft intended to serve the longest and most premium routes where you should have more F demand if it was really there as much as Austline and Ben talk about, F capacity has been cut back dramatically from the A380 vs J capacity. Hardly a ringing endorsement of widespread F demand
You assume way too much.
F is also the most weight-intensive class, which is a gigantic deterrence from ULH inclusion: it's the primary reason why Singapore still offers 1stop service to LAX, JFK, and SFO, despite having nonstops to each of the above.
First has demand, but its weight penalty increases exponentially on flights beyond 14hrs, which is why it was never offered on the ULH A340-500 and A350-900 nonstops to the US. That's a direct quote from Singapore's Lau Hwa Peng, who was at the time their VP of Fleet.
The fact that QF is going to be flying nonstops up to 7hrs longer than the cutoff point that Singapore just gave, yet STILL is choosing to offer F, is actually a testament to the strength of F demand for them; not weakness, as you so incorrectly surmise.
Many French, German, and Japanese firms still maintain their corporate travel policies allowing their senior execs to fly first class when traveling intercontinental. But perhaps not in the US anymore.
The weight penalty is irrelevant; if there's strong F demand, there should be customers willing to pay the required premium to support the weight and space requirements of F. The net effect to F capacity once QF is done with its fleet revitalization is to have 72 F seats (6 F x 12 A350s), down from 168 F seats previously (14 F x 12 A380s), despite flying to all the same destinations that QF previously flew F to (LAX, SIN, HKG, LHR primarily, as well as DFW though that for onwards connecting capacity rather than F demand to DFW) plus new ones (JFK, which they weren't flying F to when they were using the 787; CDG and FRA, which are not yet confirmed but have been previously mentioned as Sunrise destinations). No matter how you analyze the facts, QF is flying fewer F seats but more J seats across their long-haul network, just like every other carrier in the world. The only people claiming that there is widespread F demand are those that pay for F primarily if not exclusively with saver awards, which is exactly why airlines keep downsizing if not entirely removing F cabins from their planes
The weight penalty is irrelevant
Stopped reading after that point. Nothing else you can say would make up for such an idiotic notion within the confines of aviation.
Are you expecting either of Business or First to provide you with charter service?
Did you start invoking “J” as a reference for “Q suites[sic]” without noting that you are?
Yikes!
Uncalled-for personal insult.
Unironically, from a person who has named themselves after such an invention — certainly nothing to do with ‘in spite of great consumer-interest’, right?
No wonder that when your very premise was taken to its logical conclusion, you have had no option but resort to personal-attacks to justify this ‘Qantas is very actively expanding the First’ romanticism.
Hear, here…!
The online message-boards and forums are filled with first-class flyers literally with a sense of entitlement ginormous to the extent of a rich titanium-spoon fellow ranting at their charter-jet crew.
They genuinely don't wish to understand that on a commercial-airline, “first class” can only mean concierge at Best — but it's still with as much caveats as staying in a 7-star "heritage" hotels *with others*, in stead of like.. Renting a remote farmhouse/mansion, which is analogous to chartering a small jet.
But that's the thing, no?
It's only when it's on the company's dime.
And how is it possible to provide an anti-social, individualist luxury-service when you are so clearly not on a charter jet?
Many Italian, German, and Japanese firms still maintain their corporate travel policies allowing their senior execs to fly first class when traveling intercontinental. But perhaps not in the US anymore.