FAA Extends Cockpit Voice Recorder Rule To 25 Hours, Despite Pilot Pushback

Goodnees. Union pilots are largely a bunch of overprotected, overpaid babies.

^Good news. Autocorrect just won’t stop.

Excellent flight safety move for all concerned.

No, this isn't pilots-bad or unions-bad; the new rules seem to be a necessary, positive change for safety and to prevent future accidents, but it doesn't mean 'open season' to trash flight crews. We all want the same thing: greater safety in commercial aviation. It's not always easy to get there.

Hopefully real Aero agrees, too.

…. and Mr Apple’s iOS 26.2.1 does not help much either! …. 🙂

It is a shame that we do not have an ‘edit button’ option after posting.

…. and why would he not do so?

After all he campaigned for years about the CH-47 Boeing software challenge in the 90’s.

Quite!
Pilots who have genuine concerns about inflight safety should welcome this news. U.S. Military aviators should understand that they may no longer have a ‘get out of jail’ card due to unrecorded flight deck chatter.

The ability to edit comments or block comments is key. Ben’s reasons for not moving to Disqus are lame. “But I might want to re-read a comment from 15 years ago!”

And the audio and video needs to be recorded remotely! It’s unreal that we still rely on a black box, as if this were the 50s.

IOS 26.2.1 = Liquid Ass

So the author quotes this:
"The pilot community does have concerns about whether the information could be publicly released.”

Then writes this:
"I find this argument to be a little strange:
Why would an airline release the transcripts of cockpit voice recorders publicly, beyond what’s vital to an investigation?"

Then he writes:

"Honestly, I think it’s pretty clear why some pilots object to this — if things do go wrong, they don’t want investigators being able to listen to what they were saying leading up to the incident. While most pilots are professionals and do a great job keeping us safe, transcripts from cockpit voice recorders often have some shocking conversations."
And then links to an actual release of "shocking conversations," the very thing that he believes pilots should not be concerned about:
"An American Airlines Pilot Almost Crashed A Plane, And The Transcript Is Shocking"
https://onemileatatime.com/news/american-airlines-pilot-almost-crashed-plane/

Mr. Schlappig just proved those pilots' concerns to be valid. Thank you.

This is an absolutely necessary step now that planes can fly for up to 20 hours.

this would have also helped to understand what would have happened with the UA 777 that nearly ditched in the Pacific on the way from Hawaii to the mainland; the pilots there continued to the mainland, overwriting the cockpit conversations.

It would also be worthwhile for you, Ben, to discuss the preliminary NTSB report on the Cessna Citation crash in Statesville NC a month ago. While it is preliminary, there are all kinds of red flags that will likely become part of the final report. and that plane did have CVR but did not need or have a data recorder

and if they had continued to LAX, the recording would not have been available.

The pilots might not have wanted that conversation to be published but, because it was, I suspect that someone got some much needed additional training.

AA has had multiple incidents at JFK for some reason.

It's odd pilots would be against a useful tool that could provide exculpatory evidence, and clear rumors that result when speculation is rampant.

“Mr. Schlappig just proved those pilots' concerns to be valid. Thank you.”

That is not the Q.E.D. you seem to think it is.

The recording you cite from 3 1/2 years ago was completely relevant to safety; the cockpit discussions from the time of the incident to after the incident speak to the pilots’ states of mind. All of that has to do with safety during an a near catastrophe, and has investigatory relevance about which the public has a legitimate interest.

Just checkin’ *wink*

“It would also be worthwhile for you, Ben, to discuss the preliminary NTSB report on the Cessna Citation crash in Statesville NC a month ago.”

Great suggestion, though the readers will wait with bated breath for you to conduct that discussion in the next piece about Delta One cabins or UA quarterly financials.

Any pilot who is fearful that the CVR could be used as evidence against his actions is mentally unfit to fly!

you have it backwards.

I will discuss Delta financials (and throw in comparisons to the entire industry too) about everything that is NOT about them. 🙂

It's Saturday - laugh a little.

I'm honestly fed up with pilots having much say in this at all. We're not even talking about cockpit video which is something that should've been implemented.
Pilots working on the flight deck should have zero expectation of privacy, for public safety reasons. End of discussion.

I couldn’t agree more that cockpit video recorders are a logical next step, but that’s probably 15 years down the road.

Newly built locomotives in the US and Canada have had inward and outward facing cameras for about a decade (and have had data recorders since 1995). Though in-cab audio is optional to my knowledge all railroads have opted to include it. It’s now finally going to be required on most locomotives by 2030, with a 12-hour memory. Every system I’ve interacted with thus far has a much longer memory, in the 72-100 hour range. Some newer equipment even supports OTA downloads, and automatically uploads a 30-second clip if an incident is detected and power is available.

Given the much higher stakes involved in aviation it’s surprising to me cockpit cameras still aren’t standard and shows just how much power pilots have. It’s simple - the footage/audio is going to exonerate or condemn you and if you’re doing what you’re supposed to, you have nothing to fear.

I have a ex gf who had some fun in the cockpit when one of the pilots went to the bathroom... The other pilot knew about it and stayed out talking to the other fa. This was back in the 1900's...

Would this be a reason why the pilots don't want longer recordings? Maybe they don't want to people to hear what is going on up in the cockpit?

Glad its being extended. Don't really care what pilots think about it. If they aren't doing/saying inappropriate things on the flightdeck then there is zero reason for concern. Pilots on the major airlines get paid a lot of money and are supposed to be professionals. There is no reason for this to be opposed.

Exactly its not like they are sitting in their living room. They are at work for gods sake.

Unions in general lead to nonsense like this

I’m pumped to hear more, Tim! Whether it’s here, Cranky, VFTW, LALF or elsewhere. Do you do Reddit too? You a r/delta guy?

The obvious solution is to simultaneously change the length to 25 hours and also bar anyone from using the data without a warrant.

The sky is a public place for all to enjoy and use responsibly. Pilots are a group privileged to frequent this space. Cockpit voice or video recorders are merely means to ensure to all,including pilots themselves, that only responsible persons and fit machinery are working in this space. Planes are fast moving devices and a longer cockpit recording will capture more information on-board. It's an added layer of safety and not for intruding into privacy.

So how many people here would appreciate a recorder at their desk? Or, perhaps, a piece of software monitoring their computer usage. After all, we are all professionals and not supposed to shop Amazon during work hours, right?

Yes, CVRs and especially video recorders can provide extremely valuable information in the event of incident.

But it can also be used (not by every airline by far - but by some) to conduct "random spot checks" - has the FO worn the uniform in compliance with company guidelines? Or used by-the-book language to notify captain he needs toilet break?
Or used by cockpit crew members in the event of personal conflict (was the joke told by FO been really unappropriate?)

So double edged - increased opportunity of evidence collection at the expense of pilots having to worry about carefully watching their language in addition to concentratng on flying the plane

We can thank President Trump for this change. Greatest President EVER.

Cockpit voice recorders should be mandatory for 1 & 1/2 times the scheduled flight. Along with all the other information recorded..PERIOD.
People / the public should also demand on flights longer than 3 1/2 hrs or be international ,have a 3rd person in pilot cabin. And that there always be 3 people in pilots cabin in flight every minute; even if 1 pilot takes a piss. For privacy concerns there should be a standard on the type of incident to check on the nuance of every conversation

100x for this. As we were boarding a plane and seated the pilot announced we had a staff shortage and had to disembark; ground staff gaslit us and claimed the weather. MAKE. THEM. PAY.

Some pilots fear that if they make a mistake their family will suffer.
Somehow my opposite take is that "sometimes shit happens" and in cases where there is a lack of proof (AI171?) there may be a false or no outcome which might be just as bad. Or might assign pilot error as nothing else can be proved.
Better to have all the truth, audio and video, live to the CLOUD

Fwiw, it's entirely possible BOTH were the true answer. There's so much going on "behind the scenes" in scheduled flying, that most don't realize or will ever see. Weather on the other side of the country, can affect staffing on your flight 1000's of miles away.....crews and airplanes are constantly being shuffled around, to be in position for the next flight.

Many of you are missing the point of the privacy argument. Pilots spend many hours in cruise with a low workload. Conversations happen, and sometimes those conversations are deeply personal (i.e. talking about their divorce, their kids' drug problem, etc.).

Pilots aren't concerned about hiding what was said by a crew during an accident flight. But a twenty-five-hour recording could cover numerous flights flown by different crews. An accident or company investigation could publicly reveal personal conversations from crews who weren't even involved in the accident.

Imagine this: we put audio recorders in the bathrooms at your workplace. You go to the bathroom and chat with your friend about an embarrassing personal problem. The next day, a coworker is injured in the bathroom and the company pulls the audio tapes. Your personal conversation from the day before is now available to the company investigators, even though you weren't involved. Worst case, your conversation becomes public during the investigation and litigation, and everyone in the world knows about your embarrassing problem.

That's one side of the privacy argument, and the FAA and airlines have done nothing to address it. Neither of those entities are trustworthy.

Once the aircraft is on autopilot, conversations about what they did over the weekend is no one's business except the one you share it with. With that being said, if its inappropriate about where someone went and what they did, you wouldn't be telling about it anyway. As professionals, it should always be kept professional. Pilots are still in their office environment until the leg is thru. Its the same concept as using the computer; If you dont want anyone to know something, stay off the computer! If you want to keep something private, dont tell anyone!

What if a pilot decides to join the mile high club with one of the stewardess? The pilots don't want the FAA to hear all that ?? The 25 hr recorder just isn't fair !!

I agree. Your a professional Pilot, on the job and flying a company plane. What "right to privacy" do they think they should have!

Welcome to 2025... Because that's already a thing for a lot of people. Like, almost all businesses today that have any significant amount of computers use an MDM, such as intune. Those MDM systems now log anything the business tells it to log and records anything the business tells the device to record. Generally that's pretty much unlimited on desktop systems. Phones are even more commonly handled in an MDM, but they're more limited there, though still a lot can be logged and sent to IT... Or HR.

And here's the thing. While businesses absolutely CAN activate both microphone and camera on these devices to find out what you're doing... They don't. Not only because if they do, no one wants to work for them anymore. But also because that would cost money to hire people for the sole purpose of listening to this stuff for no reason... Businesses want to make money, not spend it on people listening in on break room like conversations all day... Like really, if they wanted to, they could hire people to just sit in the break room all day listening to those concersations, but they don't for the same exact reasons.

As usual the blogger and almost everyone on this thread is wrong as to the why the unions do not want changes to the rules. The problem is most the people on this blog are not aviation nor legal professionals or have dealt with accidents. Unfortunately you view things thru a lens of an US based amateur aviation enthusiast except for Tim who thinks he’s an expert in all matters, which he is not. The issue is most pilots and their unions are worried about the release of the “actual recording” , they do not want their families hearing their death on a recording because the accident occurs in another country where the laws are not like the USA and pilots are guilty until proven innocent. The foreign country will use the recording on their behalf to make the pilots look bad and their own country to be seen in a better light by the world. The longer the recording the more data to smear the pilots in the eyes of the public, it has happened before and it will happen again. There is the truth.

Is it just me or me or do we get another datapoint on why pilot and police unions should be outlawed every week or so.

If US pilots are so upset they should just go fly for European or ME carriers, whose pilots they’ve blocked from flying here.

Two hours is already overkill. When voice reorders were proposed in the mid 60's and became required in 1967 they only recorded 30 minutes which was all that's needed. We were promised it was for accident investigation only and would never be released to the public. Now it's in the news the next day. Pilots are entitled to private conversations in the workplace same as anybody else. No crew is going to be in the same cockpit for 25 hours. 25 hours would include multiple crews. How is recording the conversation of crews that flew the airplane two or three days ago going to help an investigation? Police have body cams but they only turn them on when needed. Their every word in the workplace is not recorded. Two hours is more than adequate for any accident. When you have a hammer in your hand everything looks like a nail! Stick with two hours!

If you are employed, how would you like having all of your conversations recorded while you are at work? I would bet that you would be screaming about your rights being violated.

Apply your "logic" to yourself in your workplace and see how ridiculous your post is.