Atlanta ATC Cancels American Pilot's Takeoff Clearance, Argument Follows

What worries me most? This sort of unnecessary angst over a couple seconds adds stress for both the pilot and the ATC. Things that will not promote safety for me the passenger

It's a no Brainerd. All the pilot had to do was to slowly wind up the engines and note where that plane rotated and lift off accordingly. A 757 is not 'heavy'.
Much ado about nothing.
A retired B747-400 Captain

It's all silly really, everyone's on edge in this coumtry!

I don't have the expertise to know who is technically correct, but it's obvious that the pilot is acting in good faith and ATC is being a petty b*tch about it. No two sides about it.

737 pilot here. Same category as A319. I've taken off behind aircraft the same weight as mine, like another 737, flown through their wake and had an uncontrolled role input for a couple of seconds which is pretty unsettling! One time it was so strong it even kicked off the auto pilot! Taking off behind a larger aircraft like a 757 in calm wind where the proceeding aircraft's wake vortices will not get blown away, out of your path, wake turbulence is a serious concern. Additionally, when cleared to take off behind a heavier airplane, ATC almost always issues a caution awake turbulence advisory in addition to the takeoff clearance.

There is only one correct side to this whole thing. The controller is absolutely wrong here for several reasons. Having the American aircraft taxi off the runway and allowing the frontier aircraft to take off behind him caused the same delay that would have occurred if he had just let American have 60 to 90 seconds like they wanted anyway. It was purely just a power trip move to punish American for questioning him, which they absolutely have a right to do if they have a safety concern. The second issue is telling them to call a phone number for a possible pilot deviation. That was also just an intimidation tactic, and improper use of a "Brasher warning". Third, it's unprofessional for an air traffic controller to say he doesn't need a pilot telling him how to do its job. All three of these things go against the safety culture that exists in the airlines. When you create an intimidation environment where people do not feel comfortable speaking up that's how you end up with accidents.

This internet reminds me of the tragic crash of Pan Am Flight 759 in New Orleans on July 9, 1982, where a Southwest jet declined his takeoff clearance because he didn't like a radar return of a storm out in front of the runway. The tower controller asked the Pan Am aircraft if he wanted to go then Pan Am said it was fine, took off and crashed because of wind shear, which is exactly what the southwest captain was worried about.

At a minimum, I think this controller should get a reprimand. The American pilots should be commended for acting in the interest of safety and not being bullied or pressured into an unsafe situation.

Children, doing an adult's job. Ridiculous!

If this was simply a request to delay the roll by 20-30 seconds, I can appreciate the caution, and particularly after the 757. If this is the case, I agree the controller was being petty, and the F9 crew insufferable. Now, wouldn't it be fun to give the same clearance and timing to that controller at the controls of a Piper Cherokee, following that 757?

As a pilot I can tell you there are ways to do this. People get defensive when you say "you are doing it wrong". Just simply say - "I apologize, I need another 30 seconds please, finishing up a check list". It would have ended there. ATC is right, the 757 isn't typically a heavy so there's no wake turbulence separation. The pilot is right. The 757 has powerful engines and will likely be airborne before the point the A321 can be, and with calm winds that exposes the airbus to wake turbulence. 30 seconds would have been great to have, but not legally required. Legal requirements are the MINIMUM requirement - not necessarily the safest. You can handle this without being combative.

Pilots these days have such egos. Get over yourselves. Anyone can push buttons. And don't tell me it takes years years of training to be a pilot. I did it for eight years and changed careers.

As I see it, ATC seeks and manages to get the confrontation.

The flight is cleared to take off, the pilot asks for extra time due to their safety assessment, take off is cancelled and flight is asked to vacate the runway. They do, without a remark, grumble or complaint. The controller then goes on to berate the flight crew for not asking for extra time in relation to an amount of time they can't know in advance, and that is entirely set by the controller. Basically "Tell me in advance if you need more time than what I will assign to you at a later stage." Good luck to the pilots for guessing whether they need to ask for extra time or not.

But I do see a lot of these terse conversations more as a reflection of how tense the system is strung, rather than individuals being at fault.

The 757 generates unique wing tip vortices that are stronger and last longer than other narrow body aircraft. I don’t know if they still do, but at one time controllers were supposed to wait two minutes before clearing a smaller narrow body, like a 319, for takeoff if the previous departure was a 757. While lined up on the runway the AA pilots could see where the 757 rotated and they knew, with their early model 319, they weren’t going to out climb a 757. To me the AA captain made the right call.

It's simple, don't let ATC fly your aircraft. If in your opinion a clearance could put your aircraft in jeopardy you deny it. That's what the American pilot did. Perfectly in his rights to do that

The PIC is the Pilot on Command of the Aircraft and is the “Final Authority” as to the operation of the aircraft.” That is the FAR - Federal Aviation Regulation. With that being said, both the Pilot and Controller over reacted. Safety must be the number one priority. It works better when all work together.

The pilot wasn't qualified to fly out of Atlanta. He needs to go back to crop dusting.

There is no minimum time separation mandated because the A319 is Category F size and the B757 is Category E, a special category created after B757 vortices were cited in two business jet fatal crashes. If Atlanta was busy, it's possible the tower cleared the A319 before the B757 broke ground which was likely somewhere very roughly around 6,000 ft according to it's takeoff roll stats. The A319 has roughly the same takeoff roll stats. But the B757 climbs like a bat so if the A319 had a shorter takeoff roll, it's slower climb rate would likely leave it punching directly through B757 takeoff path at a very low altitude above the runway. I've been in a sudden CAT-induced 60 degree roll in a light airplane at 300 feet on final where I wasn't even sure I had the aileron to even stop the rotation so I certainly wouldn't want to meet B757 vortices 100 feet above the runway after takeoff, even if I was in a huge airplane. The rules say the pilot can refuse the tower if there's ANY question as to safety so the pilot was within his rights even if some don't think the pilot was justified because he's almost always held responsible when there's virtually any risk he might have been able to foresee. Maybe the co-pilot was new to that airport and not used to being crammed into the sequence that tightly or maybe the tower just got into the habit of prioritizing rapid departures over safety to reduce stress. They don't feel the wild wind in the tower that the pilot does when he runs into vortices turbulence and nobody should be subjected to that risk at half a wingspan above the ground.